Jojo Levesque

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky" featuring JoJo Levesque

Podcast Information:

• Title: Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky
• Host: Monica Lewinsky (Wondery)
• Episode: JoJo Levesque
• Release Date: April 29, 2025

Overview: In this compelling episode of "Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky," host Monica engages in an in-depth conversation with singer JoJo Levesque. The discussion navigates JoJo's early rise to fame, her tumultuous relationship with her record label Blackground, personal struggles, and her journey to reclaim her artistic and personal voice. The episode is rich with emotional insights, personal anecdotes, and empowering narratives of resilience and self-discovery.

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1. Introduction and Early Career

Monica sets the stage by highlighting JoJo's remarkable early success in the music industry and the subsequent challenges she faced.

• Early Success:

  • JoJo's Breakthrough: Signed her first record deal at 13.
  • Hit Single: "Leave (Get Out)" made her the youngest singer to top the Billboard charts in 2004.

• Challenges with Blackground Labels:

  • Monica notes, "before Taylor Swift made headlines by re-recording old albums, there were other young artists held hostage by record labels," with JoJo being a prime example.
  • Legal Disputes: JoJo faced nearly a decade of legal battles and unreleased music during what should have been the peak of her career.

• JoJo's Resilience:

  • Self-description: JoJo calls herself a "rugged bitch," emphasizing her resilience amidst "addiction, instability, and a controlling music industry" ([Transcript 03:17]).

2. Personal Struggles and Family Tragedy

The conversation delves into JoJo's personal life, revealing profound family tragedies and their impact on her.

• Family Tragedy:

  • Mother's Accident: At age three, JoJo's mother survived a car accident that killed half her family, including her mother and siblings ([Transcript 18:24]).
  • Impact of Addiction: Both of JoJo's parents struggled with addiction, shaping her upbringing and personal challenges.

• Meeting Her Father:

  • JoJo shares the poignant story of how her parents met at an AA meeting, highlighting the complexities of their relationship and her conception ([Transcript 20:43]).

3. Reclaiming Her Voice and Independence

JoJo discusses her battle to regain control over her music and personal life.

• Legal Battle with Blackground:

  • Contractual Constraints: Her contract with Blackground prevented her from making career advances or monetizing her voice.
  • Suing the Label: Frustrated by the lack of support and distribution, JoJo sued Blackground under child labor laws to free herself from the restrictive contract ([Transcript 15:08]).

• Fan Support and #FreeJoJo Movement:

  • Fan Engagement: Despite the label's control, JoJo maintained a strong relationship with her fans by releasing mixtapes and engaging through social media.
  • Hashtag Movement: Fans initiated the #FreeJoJo movement on Twitter, encouraging her to fight for her artistic freedom ([Transcript 15:42]).

• Establishing Clover Music:

  • New Beginnings: JoJo founded her own record label, Clover Music, to release her music independently and learn about ownership and the different revenue streams available to artists ([Transcript 55:24]).

4. Reflections on Fame and Identity

The episode explores the complexities of fame and its effect on JoJo's sense of self.

• Early Fame:

  • Desire for Validation: Growing up as an only child who faced bullying, JoJo saw fame as a means of validation and protection ([Transcript 09:54]).
  • Pressure of Success: The early success led to immense pressure to maintain her status, contributing to anxiety and a loss of self ([Transcript 29:22]).

• Struggles with Identity:

  • Anonymity and Acceptance: Losing the fame she once had forced JoJo to confront her identity outside the public eye, leading to a period of self-discovery and reclaiming her authentic self ([Transcript 39:00]).

• Monica's Insights:

  • Monica relates her own struggles with identity and acceptance, drawing parallels to JoJo's journey ([Transcript 25:15]).

5. Coping Mechanisms and Personal Growth

JoJo opens up about her coping strategies and the steps she took towards healing and personal development.

• Coping with Stress:

  • Substance Use: Faced with the pressures of her career and legal battles, JoJo turned to alcohol to cope in 2019 ([Transcript 31:05]).

• Therapeutic Approaches:

  • Self-Help and Therapy: JoJo credits reading self-help books and attending therapy for helping her navigate her emotional turmoil and reconnect with herself.
  • Inspiration from Others: Hearing stories of others overcoming their struggles inspired her to believe in her own capacity for change ([Transcript 43:59]).

• Embracing Authenticity:

  • Authentic Voice: JoJo emphasizes the importance of returning to a playful and exploratory relationship with her music, free from the intensity and pressure that once overshadowed her creativity ([Transcript 55:24]).

6. Key Takeaways and Conclusions

The episode concludes with reflections on the importance of owning one's voice and the ongoing journey of self-reclamation.

• Empowerment Through Ownership:

  • JoJo's journey underscores the significance of artists owning their work and the freedom it brings to express authentic creativity.

• Resilience and Adaptation:

  • Both JoJo and Monica highlight the continuous process of evolving and adapting to maintain one's identity amidst external pressures.

• Community and Support:

  • The support from fans and the community plays a crucial role in empowering individuals to reclaim their narratives and pursue their passions.

• Final Thoughts:

  • JoJo expresses gratitude for her journey, embracing her identity as a "rugged bitch" and looking forward to the next decade with optimism and a desire to bring joy through her music ([Transcript 55:25]).

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Notable Quotes:

1. JoJo Levesque on Resilience:

   • "I just love that her resilience growing up surrounded by addiction, instability and a controlling music industry is rugged." ([Transcript 03:17])

2. Monica on Shared Experiences:

   • "When you have those deep conversations, no matter what rabbit hole you go down, you always end up somewhere with a story from when you were little." ([Transcript 11:26])

3. JoJo on Ownership and Independence:

   • "Starting Clover Music is where I started to release things over the last few years. And whether that's in conjunction with a distribution company or completely on my own, I've done different types of deals with that." ([Transcript 55:24])

4. JoJo on Authenticity:

   • "The process of me reclaiming my voice is still. I'm still having an everyday new relationship with my voice and trying to get back to when it was fun and play and it wasn't about a result." ([Transcript 55:26])

5. Monica on Healing Journey:

   • "The healing journey is like memento. Like you're trying to, you know, you're trying to piece together, okay, well, why do I do this thing if I wouldn't do this thing if it weren't for this thing?" ([Transcript 24:30])

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Conclusion: This episode of "Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky" offers a profound exploration of JoJo Levesque's life, highlighting her early achievements, the adversities she faced, and her inspiring journey towards reclaiming her voice and identity. Through candid conversation and heartfelt storytelling, Monica and JoJo shed light on the complexities of fame, the importance of self-ownership, and the resilience required to overcome personal and professional challenges. Listeners are left with a deep appreciation for JoJo's strength and an understanding of the multifaceted nature of reclaiming one's narrative.

Transcript

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Hi. On today's episode I spoke with the singer JoJo. Now this intro is a little different than the others because this chat was among my early ones that I did for the podcast and I didn't quite get all of the info you'll need to follow this story. So sorry. But before Taylor Swift made headlines by re recording old albums and releasing them under her ownership, there were other young artists held hostage by record labels and working to reclaim their voice. Joanna Jojo Levesque is one of them. JoJo signed her first record deal at just 13 years old. Her smash hit Leave get out under Blackground Labels made her the youngest singer to top the Billboard charts in 2004 at age 13. What followed though, was almost a decade of legal disputes and unreleased music at what should have been the height of her career rise. But JoJo's a fighter and she found loopholes like releasing mixtapes for her fans who had created hashtags to free their favorite artist. And eventually JoJo did get out of her label contract, suing Blackground under child labor laws. In our interview, JoJo called herself a rugged bitch. I just love that her resilience growing up surrounded by addiction, instability and a controlling music industry is rugged. But what I loved most about my conversation with JoJo was her depth, her introspection and the way she shares so openly what she's learned on this path. Anyway, I hope you find something in our chat to connect to and thanks so much for joining us on Reclaiming. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Audible. Love getting lost in heart pounding stories. Audible delivers thrills of every kind. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat today. Sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com reclaiming thank you to our exclusive fashion partner, Reformation. I honestly can't tell you how many of their pieces have become my go to favorites. Their sweaters have this incredible way of being both polished and comfortable. And in fact, when we recorded my own reclaiming story for the podcast, I was wearing the same reformation sweater as the producer interviewing me, but thankfully we had the Clara on in different colors. Their clothes work for all moments in my life. Whether it's a casual day out or a more formal occasion. I always find myself reaching for my Reformation pieces. Visit reformation.com to see why. They're one of my favorite brands for Stylish and sustainable fashion. I was just thinking maybe you should warm me up. I should. We should do warm up vocals.

[JoJo]

Have you done warmups?

[Monica Lewinsky]

I do them when I do speeches. I have a whole, you know, a whole thing.

[JoJo]

My friends who are public speakers have asked me, like, what should I be doing? Or how do I get my voice back? Or whatever. So I'm like, yes, come to mama.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I'm so happy to be here with you. Me, too. We met, I think it was maybe like six or eight months ago at Questlove's, one of Questlove's game nights. And I felt like we had bonded with Brianna Wiest and Emir, AKA Questlove, over playing Operation Game with the little tweezers pulling out those tiny fucking organs.

[JoJo]

A childhood game that I hadn't touched in, like, 25 years, probably.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I hadn't played either since I was a kid. And I don't know about you, but I felt like they. When I was a kid, the buzzer was so traumatic.

[JoJo]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And so this. I was like, this isn't so bad, you know, someone probably sued them. No.

[JoJo]

It used to scare the shit out of me. It scared me a little bit, though.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Because I was like, I don't know. Brianna was amazing.

[JoJo]

She was amazing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

She, like. She just got all of them. I don't think I got any of them, but.

[JoJo]

But what we did get, though, is like, I felt like I had some kindred spirit. I felt like, oh, I'm so happy I met this person. And I just, you know, and I felt the same about Briana, too. And I was like, it's so cool to meet women who. You're just like, oh, I just. I like this person.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[JoJo]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, I think there's. I think we feel like. I find at least that people who have a sense of self and who have been probably working on themselves, there's just. There's an energetic depth of soul that you kind of read and feel in a way, you know, it's a whole other language. I think so, But. And then Amir and I were trying to coordinate coming to see you when you're starring in Moulin Rouge, but we couldn't make it happen.

[JoJo]

Moulin Rouge was the first musical that I've ever done on Broadway, and I did it for the first time last year and then got asked to do it again this year. So I did 12 weeks this year, and it was so much fun.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. It's funny, I walked here today and I happened to walk past the marquee for the show, and it was. Now I'm gonna. I took a picture, but now I'm gonna try to remember. It was something like underneath it was truth, freedom, beauty, and love. And I just thought, oh, that's you. And so coming to have this conversation with you and seeing that, I thought that's a. That's a really interesting. It just felt like an interesting sign from the universe.

[JoJo]

Oh, my God. I mean, those are four of my favorite words that I could meditate on forever just to think about, like wanting to embody those things and call them in. So I think that's one of the things that drew me to that musical.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, interesting.

[JoJo]

It's those words. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. My mantra is more relaxed, centered and expansive. Yeah, you can use it.

[JoJo]

Thank you. Relaxed, centered, and expansive. Thinking about those words makes me feel better. I like that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, it's just sort of. I actually, I had it printed. I have it all over my house on like weird little engraved this and it printed that and this and that. So. But was. So for you with the Broadway show, was that something that just kind of unfolded or is that something you had? I mean, you're an extraordinary singer, but had you always wanted to be on Broadway?

[JoJo]

Yeah, I always dreamed of it. I'm from Massachusetts, so New York isn't far. So my mom and I would take the Bonanza bus from like Providence, Rhode island, or Boston, because we lived right in the middle, like in Foxborough, Mass. And I did Broadway auditions as a little kid and I got my start in theater, so I did a local production of the who's Tommy and I did A Midsummer Night's Dream at the Huntington Theater in Boston. And I think that if I hadn't become successful in pop music so young, I think I probably would have gone the musical theater route. My mom studied musical theater at Syracuse for a year and then. And then dropped out. But she was really, really gifted at that. And I absolutely love theater. I love live theater. I love the community. And it was not something that necessarily just. It didn't just fall into my lap. I had to manifest it and go in so prepared and act as if I deserve to act as if I could do it. Even though I didn't necessarily believe that I could. I hoped that I could. And then I over prepared and then felt okay even to go on the audition, you know?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, yeah, I was really. I mean, I still love musical theater, but I did it in high school, so it was sort of. But I was. I was not very good. I was Ethel Toffelmeier, the pianola girl in music, man. Oh, my God. So who's like, I was the Shipupi, and I was a terrible dancer. And I remember trying to teach myself bell kicks. Like, I had a canopy bed.

[JoJo]

What is a bell kick? I don't know.

[Monica Lewinsky]

That's the sideways. You know, the kick. The sideways kick up in the air, that thing. I think it's called a bell kick. Maybe it's called something else.

[JoJo]

Now I can't do that, so I need to really expand my musical theater dance things. Yeah, for sure.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I will not teach you. So I'm like, get up.

[JoJo]

Let's try it right now.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But you were. Okay, so now, were you already singing because you were singing from a young age?

[JoJo]

Oh, yeah. I mean, anywhere. Anywhere anyone would listen to me. My Aunt Connie would go to the nail salon in town, and she'd bring me and I'd sing for the ladies. It was just super precocious and just really clear that I just love to sing. I'd been singing since I was 2 years old. I don't remember, but my mom was like, as soon as you were making sound, you're putting melody to it and just always experimenting with your voice.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, how interesting. Yeah, that's really interesting. I talked from a really young age, but I don't think I was putting melody to it.

[JoJo]

It was just always in me. Both my parents sang, and it brought them so much pleasure and joy, what they could do with their voices, and I think I was electrified by that. It was just such a culture in our home of music.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay, so you're young, you're singing, you're doing theater, and is. I mean, I was raised in la, and so Hollywood is everywhere, but was fame something you were. Were you doing something that you were just enjoying, or was it also about, like, okay, I want to be famous? Yeah.

[JoJo]

Fame was something I was interested in from a young age, and probably because I was. I mean, I was a ham. Like, I was just. I wanted to act and sing and dance, and anybody who would listen to me, I would. I mean, I'd put a hat out on the street. You know, my mom would let me do that, and I would get to, like, collect some extra money, and she'd let me go to Friendly's and get ice cream. And so it was like, I saw that I could do something in exchange. Like, something that came naturally to me and brought me joy and brought other people joy. I could leverage it, get money from it and attention, and I liked that. I was an only child. I was bullied pretty Badly in school. So I think that the fame, my desire for some level of fame felt that, like, it would have just been validating and vindicating. Okay, so maybe so sort of like.

[Monica Lewinsky]

As a way to inoculate you from the pain of what they were doing or it would make them stop. Why were you bullied? If you don't mind me asking?

[JoJo]

I mean, probably I was always singing and maybe that was annoying and I would just be singing in the halls. I mean, you. Yeah, I was just singing in the bathroom and I didn't even realize that I was doing it. And I'm not just like raw, but. And I'll just be humming a melody or I'll just be thinking about something or. Or practicing something. But I'm not like, I wasn't doing that for attention in school, so I'm sure I was a certain personality type and intense and passionate and kids, I didn't fit in, so that's why I was bullied.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. No, it's. Well, you showed them, so.

[JoJo]

I did show them.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But I mean, it's those scars, like the childhood scars. I feel like in so many of my friendships. And when you have those deep conversations, no matter what rabbit hole you go down, you always end up somewhere with a story from when you were little.

[JoJo]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, so, I mean, I think we get imprinted so much by that.

[JoJo]

It's crazy. The language that's underneath our skin that, you know, you can't see on the surface. But if you do get to know somebody deeper, then it's like, oh, yeah, those wounds are still there.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And then you got. At a young age, right, you. Then you were still very young when you signed with Black Ground. Right. And so that was. And it was there, and you were 13 that you had that get out was this unbelievable hit. Right. So you've, like, made it now. You're only 13. I mean, mind boggling to me. I mean, did you even have your period yet?

[JoJo]

No.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. My God, yeah. Yeah.

[JoJo]

Super, super young.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And what did that feel like for you?

[JoJo]

It was euphoria. I mean, I was so overjoyed and so stimulated and so I felt like I was really good at all the things that were being thrown at me. Like, there was nothing I would. That I wanted to say no to. Any opportunity, any interview, any performance, anything, any. And my mom had to be like, you need to do your schoolwork.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's like you've had this now this huge hit. You're with Blackground. And then there was this longer period where we didn't get to hear from you as much, I think.

[JoJo]

Was there a delay due to my second album? There was 10 years.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay. And so what was the problem?

[JoJo]

They lost their distribution. I was kind of caught up in the fallout of their business decisions. And when you're in a contract with a label, it's a contract. And so they owned my voice. So I couldn't make any decisions with my voice that would make me money or advance my career or allow me to do anything with my recorded voice. So although I had, like, moved at 18, I moved to LA to be like, closer to them and make things work. And I had recorded hundreds of songs and tried to hope that they would get distribution to be able to put stuff out. They still weren't able to put stuff out. Other artists on their label had started to sue them. I was like, oh, I need to get off this sinking ship. I was advised to file for bankruptcy, but then I was like, I come from a blue collar background. If my family thinks I'm bankrupt, they're gonna think, oh, she's a stereotypical child star and she ruined. She squandered a Korean, blah, blah, blah. And I think the embarrassment and the shame of that didn't allow me to. To learn from my lawyer who was like, this is what successful people do. You can file bankruptcy. And I'm like, no, no, I can't. So then ended up needing to go through another process to comb through the contract and find a way to get out of it so I could just move forward with my career. Not even try to get any damages or anything. But I just. I saw my career being dead on the vine and I didn't want. People were like, why don't you just go pursue acting or why don't you go to college or whatever. But I was just like, I was so angry and I was just like, no, I have to make this music thing work. And it's what I love most and what I loved particularly then most, sort.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Of in thinking about talking to you and like, I was silenced, which is different than someone else owning your voice, you know? And so I just. I want to make sure we talk about, like, what happened in you getting your voice back, like you owning your voice again. How did you do that? I know at some point, I don't know if this is totally connected. Like before Free Britney, there was Free Jojo right from your. That people wanted to hear your music and wanted to hear from you.

[JoJo]

Yeah. My fans were and are so special and so passionate. And I started to put little hints out there that, you know, I wasn't able to release music because they were like, where the fuck are you? Yeah. And it was on, like, MySpace or Facebook or whatever, and I would just put little things, or I would record things for free and release them. I had started putting out mixtapes and just doing what I could to kind of stay active and. And keep that relationship with them going and keep myself creatively afloat and all that. And so they started, like, a hashtag, freejojo movement on Twitter. And that was something that was really encouraging for me and felt like, okay, I'm not in this alone. Even though I felt really alone at times, they were always there and letting me know that if I. You know, I felt discouraged that it wasn't for no reason if I keep fighting. So I kept fighting and eventually sued the label, got out of that. And so it was really frustrating to not be able to have a dialogue with this label who, you know, the owners were like, the people that had started my career. I have so much love and so much respect for how they started out my career and how I looked at them. And they were my uncle and father figures and brothers. And there was so much confusion that came about because of that experience.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. And did you. When you. So did you first meet them? Did you first meet all of those people? And it felt like family. Did you have to do. I don't know, does one do an audition for a label? I don't know what it's called.

[JoJo]

Yeah, I met with a lot of different labels, and like I said, I'd sing for anyone who'd listened. So I was very used to, like, you know, hey, I'm Joanna, and I'm gonna sing for you. And I loved it, and it made me nervous, but it was exciting. And this meeting with this label was different. It felt, like, spiritual. It felt really special. And, yeah, it did feel like a family. I was actually signed to a production company called Da Family, which was started for me. And because, you know, my executive producer, Vincent Herbert, was like, we're a family now. It's all about us. And at 13 years old, you know, 12 years old, when I recorded my first album, and being an only child, and my parents aren't together, and my mom comes from a broken home, too, and loss and death and tragedy. I think that we were. We were really interested in having a family.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. What was the tragedy?

[JoJo]

My mom's tragedy. Her. When she was three years old, she was in a car accident where her family was delivering Christmas presents and they got hit by a drunk driver. And half her family died that day. And so her mother died, her baby brother saw her baby sister and her older brother. And my mom lived, her other brother lived, and her dad lived.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wow.

[JoJo]

So half the family died, and half of them lived. And that, you know, is the core tragedy that the remaining family lived with, and it impacted everything.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. I mean, that almost feels like a quintessential before and after moment, you know?

[JoJo]

Absolutely.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I mean, I know I have that in my eye. I mean, everybody does in different ways, but for some people, they're just more pronounced, you know, So, I mean, my.

[JoJo]

Mom was 3 years old.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my gosh.

[JoJo]

And to lose her mother at that time is just inconceivable.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. Cause you don't even understand, like, you don't even understand what's happening.

[JoJo]

No. And she wasn't being told the truth at the hospital. And, you know, at 3, I mean, you don't.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. But it is truth at three.

[JoJo]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[JoJo]

But I think of my grandfather, too, who had this beautiful family, beautiful young family, and he was making a way for himself and his family. And then. And then he's left with. Was it two children? And, I mean, it's just horrible. And then the fact that it was a drunk driver and then he got off, you know, and what. I think. So I don't think he was in jail for very long.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my gosh.

[JoJo]

Yeah. 1966.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wow.

[JoJo]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wow. I'm sorry. On so many levels, but also the injustice.

[JoJo]

I know. And then. And then how addiction became such a part of my family's experience in so many different ways. And then that core wound is from a drunk driver, too. Is really interesting.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, no, that's really interesting. It's. And your. Your folks. It's like such an interesting meet. Cute story. Right. At an AA meeting. Is that right?

[JoJo]

Yeah. They met. My mom was newly sober, and my dad was older than her and had been in and out of the program. And they met. Yeah. At an AA meeting in New England. And then they did what is called the 13th step, which is when you get with somebody from AA, which is. No, you're not supposed to do that because there's a risk that sometimes your sobriety could be attached to that other person. And what if they fall off? You don't really necessarily want to get with somebody who has the same affliction or thing that ails them, but they really were into each other. And then I am a happy mistake from. From that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, I don't know about. I mean, I guess I guess. Okay, so literally. Literally, okay.

[JoJo]

Yeah. I mean, it wasn't planned. It was the first time. And I know this. This is tmi, but my mom said it's okay to talk about. But the first time she ever had sober sex was with my father. So it was pretty meaningful for her. Even though it wasn't planned, it was the. You know, they had never.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So the first time they had sex, you were conceived.

[JoJo]

Yes. And it was her first time ever having sex that wasn't under the influence.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wow.

[JoJo]

So.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wow.

[JoJo]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

That sort of has you coming in with a really sort of special energy.

[JoJo]

I'll take it. Yeah. I mean, it was. My mom was at a turning point in her life, and it was obviously meant to be.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Did you go to meetings with them as a kid and.

[JoJo]

I did, yeah. My parents weren't together for very long. They tried to make it work. They thought that it was the right thing. And I would go to meetings with my mom pretty often. That's, like, where we open up. In my book, over the Influence is my memories of being at meetings with her and the openness with which people would lay it all on the line, let it all hang out. Their stories are some of the craziest things I've ever heard. You know, so from a young age, I was hearing people's darkest moments and my mom's.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You sort of talked about this in your memoir about the Hungry Ghost and addiction. And so it sounds in some ways. I mean, I hadn't heard of it, so I don't know if you want to explain it.

[JoJo]

Sure.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, because that was really interesting to me to learn about that.

[JoJo]

Well, I think it's a Buddhist concept that Dr. Gabor Mate spoke about. And I just think the way that he talks about addiction is amazing in his. And on his Instagram and in his books. He has a book called in the Realm of Hungry Ghosts. And I don't think of addiction as to one particular substance. I think of it as more of something within us that desires to be made whole or to be filled. And maybe it's because both my parents and myself have identified at different points with, like, overeating or love addiction or sex addiction or. But it's not like just one thing. It's just like, what can I get to make me feel okay? Cause I feel so not okay. I'm in such discomfort. And you're just trying to get to equilibrium. So I think that's what. In my limited understanding of what Dr. Gabor Matei is talking about, that's the hungry ghost, where it's just like, you try to fill this void, but it's not enough because you're trying to fill it with outside things, whether it's substances or another person or experiences or things like that. And that's the trick, though, that it's not gonna. You can't get it from outside.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. There's so much there. And then, like, for me, I think as I've gotten older, sometimes it feels like the healing journey is like memento. Like you're trying to, you know, you're trying to piece together, okay, well, why do I do this thing if I wouldn't do this thing if it weren't for this thing? Right. And that thing? But you kind of go, huh, it couldn't be that bad unless something really bad must have happened somewhere here. In my own sort of healing journey, I think it's been very much. I've had to get to almost like Maslow's hierarchy of needing to get to certain emotional stages where I think I felt safe in order to go into the next level of unpacking, you know.

[JoJo]

What is Maslow's hierarchy?

[Monica Lewinsky]

So it's from. I remember from. I was a psych major, so it's all about the. All I have in my head is this. I won a limerick contest for extra credit in my psych class. The theorist whom I despise should never win a Nobel prize. My life, he does mangle. Life's not a triangle. I'll never self actualize. So it was his theory of self actualization, and it's this triangle and it has these different layers. And it's like. It's the belief that you can't actually go to the next layer of or level of self actualization until you have this level. So unless you have food and shelter. Right. Being that. And then I don't remember what the other things are, but it's all about sort of building towards self actualization. Right. And so I think for me, it's been this weird process of uncovering the layers of trauma and so that it was. I haven't been able to do that until I get to a certain level of safety with one issue. Then it feels like, oh, you know, I get to coast for a little bit and then something else will pop up. And it's like, oh, great, there's more work to do. You know, Like, I'm so excited. Lucky me.

[JoJo]

Yeah. You're like, why did I commit to this journey of self discovery?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right, Exactly. Thanks so much. To audible, our presenting sponsor Are you looking for your next big thrill? Audible's got you covered with all kinds of adventure right at your fingertips. Whether you're into heart racing mysteries, epic quests, or fantasy, they've got stories that'll keep you hooked. You'll love diving into gripping titles that keep you guessing until the final moment. Experience exclusive captivating Audible originals you won't find anywhere else. Want to know what everyone will be talking about before they're talking about it? Be the first to hear anticipated new releases and discover must listen bestsellers that will grab your attention. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat on Audible. Start your adventure today. Sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.comreclaiming that's audible.comreclaiming thanks so much to our sponsor, Reformation. I want to take a second to talk about one of my favorite clothing brands, Reformation. You've probably seen Reformation on Instagram or at a wedding. They make the best guesting dresses. But if you're like me, you may have thought that's all they do, well, you're in for a pleasant surprise. Last year they worked with Yours Truly and Vote.org on a campaign to empower voters to take part in the democratic process and show off their workwear. From doing the campaign and getting to know the brand even better. I love their sweaters, blouses, workwear, shoes and bags. But most important, I love how confident I feel in their stuff. Plus, it really holds up since they make everything with super high quality, sustainable materials. Reformation is also a brand that uses their growing platform to do good in the world and especially in the sustainable fashion space. As they say, being naked is the number one most sustainable option. Reformation is number two. If you're looking for clothes you want to feel great in and feel better about, head to reformation.com you wrote this incredible memoir and so it's, I listened.

[JoJo]

Oh, thank you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's just so, so powerful. And you talked really beautifully about different aspects of sort of your professional was like your professional trajectory, but then there was also this emotional trajectory that was happening for you too. And you, you know, talked a bit about addiction and different things there. And so going back to kind of the label, you're in this situation, you don't want to sue them, you don't want to file for bankruptcy. They own your voice. I mean, it's a little, it almost feels like the Little Mermaid in some ways. Like, damn, yeah, you know, and so.

[JoJo]

I was in a rock and a hard place. It felt like. And that was kind of a theme. It felt like a Recurring theme for a while in my life where I'm, like, at a standstill and, like, I'm scared. I just don't know what to do. You know, someone tell me what to do.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And scared of.

[JoJo]

Scared of making the wrong choice.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I felt in my life, and I've had to. I think this idea of mistakes being expensive.

[JoJo]

Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And so that sense of I get so nervous about making a mistake because some of my mistakes have cost me an enormous amount and other people. And so did you. Was it like that at all?

[JoJo]

Yeah, in the sense, I think that when you grow up a child performer, you know that you're gonna be applauded. People are gonna think it's impressive when you do something. The first take when you do, like, literally, time is money. And I knew how expensive it is to make an album. I know how expensive studio time is. I was very attuned to money from a young age. My mom was always stressing about it. We didn't have much of it. She told me she raised me on $10,000 a year. I'm like, that doesn't sound like much. How did you do that? You know what I mean? She was cleaning houses for a living. I knew a lot of these things. So then when I started making money from the music industry and stuff, then I knew that, well, I'm not making money anymore. And I knew life was expensive. I knew that no one was coming to save me, and, you know, I don't have any help from anywhere else. Then I had to, you know, I had to. I needed to figure it out. So I relate to what you're saying, that mistakes can be expensive. So I didn't want to choose the wrong. If someone was going to tell me that this song is going to be big, then maybe it will. And then I should probably go with that because then that could ensure my stability in the future. And I could also help my mom and help whatever else needed help. And so I just started, like, have a ton of anxiety about that. But then with that anxiety, then I started needing ways to cope. And so I started drinking when I was, like, 2019, because I was so deeply stressed out and I wasn't able to put out music. But I'm still recording songs constantly. I'm living in the studio because I'm hoping that one of these songs will be at the time where they get their distribution or where something changes and I'm unlocked that I'll have the song ready to go. And I'll also be skinny enough that they'll be like, yeah, you look right. And like all these different things that I was just hoping, but I couldn't really deal with all these pressures that I had put on myself or that were somehow put on me. Like, I was just. There was so much confusion. And so I was like, I come from a family of drinkers. I think I'm gonna do that too. Maybe that'll help. And it took the edge off, right? Yeah, yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Did they tell you, like, did they say to you, you're not thin enough? At some point you're saying, yeah.

[JoJo]

When I turned 18, this started to be like an open conversation that, you know, now you could talk about my looks. My mom always safeguarded me from that. But then when I turned 18, I was an adult and, you know, I brought on a co manager. And so, yeah, I was sat down just like this and was told that I needed to be able to look a certain way to sell the music. And I understood. And I was like, okay, cool. You know, put me on the 500 calorie a day diet with the injections and I mean, it was like a different form of. It wasn't Ozempic at the time. I don't know what it was, but it was like something that tricks your body into thinking that it needs to do something with whatever. And so then did that shot a music video that didn't even end up coming out. But it was really par for the course. I mean, I. I was. Now that I was 18, it was fair game to be under the same scrutiny that all female artists in the 2010s were under that. I mean, it was a wild time.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I know in 98 there wasn't even the term fat shaming yet. You know, it was just so common. Yeah.

[JoJo]

It was so accepted.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, it was just so. Yeah. And so it felt, you know, for me, it was just nobody batted an eyelash that the New York Post called me the portly pepper pot every day, you know, so unreal. Yeah. So it's just like. Or Jay Leno making jokes or, you know, I mean, so it was just, I think that we as women had started to become a different kind of commodity as, you know, as there became more and more outlets for things, I think. Right. It used to be the news and magazines and we had sort of famous people, were actors and people who are singers, people who chose to be that way. And then as 24 hour news came and tabloids and this whole mix of thing, I think we started to become more of a commodity. And as public women, you're Sort of the standard bearer in a way for all other women. Right. Everybody. We're all, we all become collateral damage in some ways.

[JoJo]

I think, I think that's a really eloquent, accurate way of putting it. And I was just, I think my mind was wandering and I was just wondering, did you, did you ever want to be a public figure?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yes and no. But I mean, I think when I was a kid, it was. I mean, the joke in the family is when I was really young, I wanted to be the first female president, really.

[JoJo]

So there's still time.

[Monica Lewinsky]

No, thank you. And you know, and then I loved musical theater, but in high school. But I was not very good. So I did costume design and the musical theater.

[JoJo]

Okay, both sides.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. And the drama teacher even said to me at some point, like, you're better on the other side of the footlights. So that was really good for my self esteem in high school. Um, yeah.

[JoJo]

But, but I'm asking because, I mean, we talked about how I, I did want to be famous. Like I want, I liked that attention and I just, I, I can't, for. In so many ways, I just can't imagine how jarring it is to not really want to be a public figure and then being a public figure. Yes, like that's.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And, and, and in the worst possible way. I mean, it was just, it was.

[JoJo]

And at a time where that you, you were like patient zero or whatever.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Exactly. Yeah.

[JoJo]

It was sort of for the criticism and the ridicule online, being online.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I mean, it was pre social media. Thank God, in some ways. I mean, although I think maybe in other ways people would have had a little more sense of me of just.

[JoJo]

If there was social media.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. I think because there would have been this history to look at of who I was as a person. No doubt it would have been cherry picked. So that's, that's a good point. You know, I think that's. I mean, I'm working on a limited dramatic series on Amanda Knox and that's what happened to her. So I think her social media being cherry picked and things. But yeah, it was certainly. I do not recommend becoming a public person the way I did. And it is strange for it to not be a choice. I think also, yeah. Violent violation because it also meant too. I didn't have the other pieces that go with it, which are usually the resources to help protect you in different ways and make your life easier, those kinds of things. And just trying to, I don't know for you in wanting to be famous, but that's Connected to your talent, too. Those things of if you felt like you lost your identity or was that just always part of your identity?

[JoJo]

I mean, being a performer and being an artist was always a part of my identity, but I definitely did. I've lost myself many different times, and I hope not to lose myself again. But I will continue to evolve. So I'll probably lose Joanna at 33. I'll lose her to Joanna at the next age.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[JoJo]

At 40. At 50, you know, like.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yes. I'm 51. So I can tell you, I mean, everybody.

[JoJo]

That we lose ourselves. Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Everybody's journey is different. Right. But I think what happens. I think what becomes better is you've gone through the cycles of, oh, this is what's happening. It's sort of a. I've lost myself, and I've gotten myself back before.

[JoJo]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So I know I can do it.

[JoJo]

Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It just becomes how it happens, how quickly it happens. That's another thing. And then for me, when I turned 49, which I thought was gonna be a horrible year, it ended up being a year of enormous acceptance, which was so freeing. So that was the gift of turning 50.

[JoJo]

So I love to hear that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. You have a long way to go, you know? Yeah. Geez.

[JoJo]

Yeah. One day at a time. One foot in front of the other. But I definitely felt like I lost my identity when I wasn't as famous as I was at 13 through 16. That was hard, you know, to have relative anonymity again. Ew. I hate that I just said that was hard. It was just emotionally, it made me feel, who am I if I'm not. If people aren't freaking out? You know, when I'm walking down the street and not everybody was freaking out, but you know what I mean? But, like, those moments, it made me feel vindicated. It made me feel like, I don't need to go back to my small town. I won't be bullied again. Like, it was protection.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I think that's really interesting.

[JoJo]

Yeah. I think that it was a bit of a protection, and maybe that if that cachet had gone away, then I wasn't gonna be protected. I don't know. I'm not sure. But I also lost myself because I started to want to achieve success so badly and to make sure that my team could eat and that everybody. Cause I'm providing for everybody, essentially. My success provides for people. And if I wasn't gonna be successful, I felt like I didn't know what was right for me. I allowed other people to tell me what was right. For me, because they had more success and experience, and I just stopped listening. I completely disconnected from my internal guidance system, from my gut. And I understand why. I totally understand why, given things that I had experienced growing up, but still, I definitely lost a connection to even what I liked and disliked.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Do you, at 33 now, do you sort of look at all that and see what an extraordinary pressure you were under at such a young age? Because I feel that for you, like, those are the kinds of heavy responsibilities that, you know, a parent has, right to provide for a family. And so you're this teenager in your early 20s, and this sense of responsibility, it just.

[JoJo]

I think I'm still struggling to really see it as that. But hearing you say that actually does feel true, and it's nice to hear. And my therapist, you know, said it to me when I really needed to hear it, too, and she kind of played a maternal figure in my life that was like this prep. You shouldn't feel this way. This is not your thing to feel. But I did. And so, yeah, I think that there's all different ways that kids and parents can be. And if I have a child, do I want them to feel the pressure to, you know, make sure things are okay financially and stuff? No. But, you know, life is different.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. I mean, is there any part of you that wishes your talent had stayed your small gift, you know, instead of blossoming into, you know, do you look back on that now in any way different?

[JoJo]

I don't really think about it like that because I really enjoy my life, and I really am grateful for the flexibility and the freedom and the opportunities that I have. So I really dig the way things have shaken out. And I'm not like, if only I had just hidden my light under a bushel, you know? Like, I think I was born to shine in my own way, not in, like. Not in the way that I thought. I think. I think I thought I was supposed to be amongst the biggest stars in the world, and as life has gone on, I don't think I'm cut out for it. There are things that I say more.

[Monica Lewinsky]

On that that's really interesting.

[JoJo]

I really, really like some normalcy. I really like being able to. I don't know. There is so much pressure and there's so much scary stuff that can go along with, like, really, really high levels of fame. And you see that with what's being brought to light. And I just. I'm not cut out for that. I'm. I'm a rugged bitch.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I'm just like, oh my God, that is a tattoo that is with me.

[JoJo]

Yeah, I did lose myself and I was like, tell me what songs I should do or whatever. Cause I was just like, you know, there's no harm in that, but like, don't do no weird shit with me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

How did, like in those times where you lost yourself, how did you find yourself again?

[JoJo]

Just time and like reading a lot of self help books. So time and spending time with, filling myself up with good ideas and good things and good alternatives. And I feel like what I know people have in aa, which is like redemptive arcs, people change their lives all the time. And I think when I grew up hearing about people's rock bottoms and then them rebuilding or pivoting or whatever, that's really inspiring. And hearing other people's stories, hearing other people's turning things around, I think was very inspiring to me. I was like, oh, I think I'm special because I'm going through like a weird moment. Like everyone goes through weird moments, everyone loses themselves. I actually have it really good. You know, nothing crazy happened publicly. You know, my uncle always instilled this fear in me that like, you know, I don't want to see your vagina on the Internet. You know what I'm saying? But I definitely was like, I would be out at clubs and it was possible I was blacked out, I was falling over in my 20s. I was like, what if my vagina ends up on the Internet? Like, what will I do? And I'm like, you know what? I'll be okay. Somehow I'll make it through. And if it kills me, then I guess I died from having my pussy on the Internet. And what a way to go. But I don't know, it's other people's stories, I mean like your own, of pivoting and of saying, let's just go, like truly.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But it's really, it's heartening to me to hear a woman and a young woman to really kind of own, I'm special, I'm special. I'm meant to do something special. I'm here. I think that that is, I think that's such an important part of how you can impact all women, but also younger women. Because I think those are the kinds of things that we are, we're raised to not, to not see in ourselves, right? That's the whole, the whole advertising industry, right? All of these things. It's sort of aspirational. You know, the flip side of aspirational, you're not enough, however you are.

[JoJo]

And so buy these products or subscribe to this or do this thing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So I think, you know, for me, I just like I, I hear that and take that in because for various reasons, not just from what happened in 98, but other things that have happened, I think I've struggled so much of just kind of accepting a positive quality. This I can't even say, I can't even say right now, like something special or something this. It's, you know, it feels difficult for me or having to work with my therapist about like I have a right to earn an income.

[JoJo]

Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, so feeling this sense, the.

[JoJo]

Right to earn an income, to take up space, to be adored, to be valued and cherished. And in my own way I struggled with those things because I thought that my self worth was attached to fame or to desirability. Not just physically, but, you know, my cachet as an artist and then my voice, with the condition of my voice, or can I perform, can I hit the notes that I did when I was 12 years old? Or then like a self fulfilling prophecy of like, oh, I must be bad. So then I'm gonna engage in bad behaviors in my relationship life and then it's just gonna make me feel like even more of a bad girl because I'm just out here doing bad things. But when I said I'm special, I'm grateful that I had two parents that really believed that I was special and believed also that they had something special within them, even with their challenges and with their humanity and all that. But I'm so grateful that they instilled that in me. And so when I, even as a little girl felt special, I also felt and experienced the magic in other people, in everyone. Because I'm just a reflection of you. And we're all reflections of each other. And the people that we're attracted to are really meant to hold mirrors to so we can come up against ourselves and we can, you know, challenge each other and support each other and uplift each other. So I really deeply know in my heart that everybody has magic within them. And it's about getting through the things that we've put in place to protect us or keep us small or keep us disconnected for a variety of reasons which all make sense. And it's amazing that we have these systems in place. But I think that like, it's so amazing to experience when someone is in the fullness of that, when they know that what they bring to the table is. And it's a humble knowing. I love experiencing that in other people. And it makes me feel Like, I have permission to do that. And I think that's something cool about this season of my life in New York right now, is that I'm meeting people who are like magic to me, and it makes me be like, oh, I want to find those magical things within as well.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, you told this incredible story in your book about. In your memoir about when your dad passed away and you had to perform, I think, at the NASCAR rally, and that it helped you kind of. Was that part of that connection of finding your authentic voice. And so can you just tell us that story?

[JoJo]

Yeah. I had just started a tour, and my dad passed in the beginning of that tour. And maybe two days after he passed, I was gonna be singing the anthem at a NASCAR rally. And my dad was deeply patriotic. He was a veteran, he was a cook in the Navy, and he loved the national anthem. So in my grief, first of all, I was like, is it disrespectful to. I was like, can I even produce a sound? All I've been doing is screaming. All I've been doing is wailing. That primordial sound that comes from a person that is in grief and that's in disbelief and that's in shock. That's what I've been doing at the Best Western in Arizona or whatever hotel I was at. But I was like, I think that I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna try to sing the anthem to honor my father. And because I was like, I'm a spiritual person. I believe that someone's spirit doesn't die. I'm like, now he's gonna be with me. Like, he was a part of me before. Now he's gonna be with me forever. We used to sing together. We used to harmonize. Maybe he'll help me get through this. I was like. So I called upon him, and this sounds very woo woo. But you started yelling. I was like, you asshole, you should be here. I need you. And maybe I hadn't allowed myself to say those things before, even while he was around, but now I'm just saying them. And in my grief and in my despair, I no longer cared how I really looked or how what my manager thought about my boyfriend that she didn't approve of, or if they didn't like this makeup artist or didn't like what I was wearing. I'm like, who fucking cares? Nothing matters. So I think that loss and grief can really shake your worldview up and be like, what the fuck?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[JoJo]

So. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And so you. And you sang.

[JoJo]

So I sang the anthem yeah. And I don't remember anything other than just like, actually feeling connected to the gift that God gave me, which is to, you know, God gave me a gift to be able to sing. And it was a similar related gift that he gave my dad and my mom. And I felt connected to him in that moment, and I felt connected to something bigger than myself. And I think that was definitely a hinge point in my life.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And so what was that like? If you can just run me through, how did we get to, like, the JoJo of the last 10 years?

[JoJo]

So, you know, I had toured after my second album. It was very successful. I did some movies. There were things. And then I was recording for so long, then I was in this lawsuit, blah, blah, blah. I felt like I had lost my youth and my moment in this window. And that's kind of what was being impressed upon me. When I was getting ready to put out my first album in a long time. I couldn't sell this bad bitch comeback thing that I was supposed to. I just. I wasn't available to do that. It wasn't true. And I cannot lie. My new EP is called ngl, which stands for Not Gonna Lie because I just suck at it. So if it's not authentic, it's just probably not gonna work. And so the process of me reclaiming my voice from a legal perspective was that I wasn't going to sign the same type of contract that I signed before. A big part of me finding my voice was starting Clover Music, which is my record label, which is where I started to release things over the last few years. And whether that's in conjunction with a distribution company or completely on my own, I've done different types of deals with that. And I learned a lot about ownership through not having it and the different streams of income that an artist can have, you know, from master recording and then publishing and mechanical royalties and licensing deals, and that's just from a record. And then there's all different ways that an artist can make money. But starting so young and not having any background or experience from it, and then feeling. By the time I kind of woke up to everything, I also felt embarrassed that I didn't know. So then I didn't want to ask questions. And so I'm still learning so much, and it's like trial by fire. So the process of me reclaiming my voice is still. I'm still having an everyday new relationship with my voice and trying to get back to when it was fun and play and it wasn't about a result. It was an exploration, and I am just able to have fun with it now. Everything felt like such so life or death for such a long time. And I'm not doing fucking brain surgery. God. Like, hopefully no one's gonna die because of me. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, why am I making this so intense? I just wanna have. I just wanna have a good time, and I want other people to have joy and pleasure, and that's. Yeah, that's how I want to do the next 10 years.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Yeah.

[JoJo]

God willing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Thank you so much for this.

[JoJo]

Thank you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You're so great. Oh, thank you. This is so great.

[JoJo]

You're so good.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF media studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music star supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candice Manriquez, Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty and Marshall Louie.