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- [00:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Hi. Today I spoke with director extraordinaire John Chu. You probably know him from his movies Crazy Rich, Asians in the Heights, and most recently, the smash hit Wicked. I wanted to talk to John to understand how identity informed so much of his storytelling. And as we talked, I realized that all those things that we love about a John Chu movie, curiosity, warmth, and magic he truly embodies as a person. Anyway, I hope you can find something in our chat to connect to. And thanks so much for joining us on Reclaiming. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, audible explore, over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts, and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. Visit audible.comreclaiming to find your next listen. Thank you to our exclusive fashion partner, Reformation. I honestly can't tell you how many of their pieces have become my go to favorites. Their sweaters have this incredible way of being both polished and comfortable. And in fact, when we recorded my own Reclaiming story for the podcast, I was wearing the same Reformation sweater as the producer interviewing me, but thankfully we had the Clara on in different colors. Their clothes work for all moments in my life, whether it's a casual day out or a more formal occasion. I always find myself reaching for my Reformation pieces. Visit reformation.com to see why they're one of my favorite brands for stylish and sustainable fashion. Okay, so this morning I was texting with my friend Apist, and she was like, have a great time on the choo choo train. And so I just thought that was great. Is that a joke?
- [02:08]
John Chu
Is that a joke? A hundred percent. But mostly with my kids nowadays.
- [02:12]
Monica Lewinsky
All right.
- [02:13]
John Chu
Yeah, we have all sorts of chew jokes. Yeah, I will always love chew. You can actually use chew in almost any song.
- [02:19]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [02:20]
John Chu
And it's a great way to live your life. Everyone's coming up with all sorts of things.
- [02:23]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Oh, no, it's good. I thought it was so clever and I was like, oh, look how clever I'm gonna look as an extension of my clever friend.
- [02:30]
John Chu
But alas, our wedding had a lot of everyone doing the choo choo train all around the dance floor, so. Yes, yes.
- [02:36]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Oh, my God. Amazing. Amazing. So I was thinking about that we met over Zoom during the pandemic, but this is the first time we got to meet in person. And I'm sure I'm not the first person to say this either. That, like, I've probably watched Crazy rich Asians about 500 and a half times. Nice, nice. Several times in the theater. And then the half comes from. I hope it's okay to say it's my go to plane movie.
- [03:02]
John Chu
Love it. So we wear that with pride.
- [03:04]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay, good. Okay, good. But it's just. And then I started playing mahjong the other year, and then even though I'm playing American mahjong, so. Which is not what you have in the movie.
- [03:14]
John Chu
No, no, but.
- [03:16]
Monica Lewinsky
But it then became this thing where it was like, oh, I've got to watch it again now. Just for the, you know, for the mahjong scene at the end.
- [03:23]
John Chu
I love that scene. And, you know, there's. Everyone has different rules for mahjong, even, like when we were designing the game in the movie, so every day someone would say, that's not how it works. And you're like, I don't. What are the rules? Can we agree on some rules? It's just really hard.
- [03:37]
Monica Lewinsky
Do you march now, John?
- [03:38]
John Chu
I do not. Right now I play Uno with my children. I have five kids. Seven. Five, three. One and four and a half months. So anything I do is around them.
- [03:50]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. How about. Are you. Do you know Daniel Tiger?
- [03:53]
John Chu
Oh, yes, I do know Daniel Tiger.
- [03:55]
Monica Lewinsky
I don't have kids, but I have a niece and nephew. I'm so close to them that I have car seats. So I'm that kind of aunt. And I know Daniel Tiger very well. Yes, I know. We're just kind of coming out of this long awards season where you were, you know, had many accolades and particularly the Oscars with 10 nominations and two wins. It's been really fun. Was there, like, how was it all for you?
- [04:19]
John Chu
It was amazing. I mean, it was a huge celebration. We have our girls up there, Cynthia and Ariana.
- [04:24]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. For Wicked.
- [04:25]
John Chu
For Wicked. For Wicked. Yes. That would be Wicked. And to have our costume design, Paul Tazewell, win, our production designer, Nathan, and to have so many hair and makeup was nominated VFX sound. And, you know, we're all used to each other in sweats and, like, stressed out of trying to make this movie perfect. And so to see everybody dressed up with their spouses or their families and in the Dolby Theater at the Oscars, like, it just reminds you all that little work is a part of a giant history of storytelling. And to be a part of that tradition meant everything. And I had snuck into the Oscars in 2000, so when they were headed at the Schreine Auditorium. I lived across the street, and I made a fake badge.
- [05:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my God.
- [05:16]
John Chu
And I put my little thing. And I did it in Photoshop. I laminated it at Kinko's, and I put it on a lanyard, and I walked in pretending to be on the phone, and I got all the way to the red carpet, and then they found me. They kicked me off, but I was there for a while. And then they confiscated the pass. So I went home, reprinted the pass.
- [05:34]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my God.
- [05:34]
John Chu
And re laminated it. And I was like, I'm going through the back. So I go all the way to the back and get in through, like, three layers of security. This is like 2000. So security's a little different back then.
- [05:45]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [05:46]
John Chu
And I get in there and I get backstage. I'm in the first publicity area, and I watched the whole show back there. And these camera guys were back there. They're like, what are you doing here? And we talked, and they loved the story. They're like, here, take our badge. So now they're like, you're official.
- [05:59]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my God.
- [06:00]
John Chu
Just write. You know, whoever star comes in here, just write their name down, and you work for us now. I was like, great. So I went there. I went to the Governor's Ball. So that was my first experience.
- [06:08]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my gosh.
- [06:09]
John Chu
So to be there now, legally.
- [06:11]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, yeah.
- [06:12]
John Chu
And having a seat there is pretty amazing.
- [06:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, I guess you've just always belonged there, John.
- [06:17]
John Chu
I guess. I guess so. But one of the best things about that night, you know, the girls performed Somewhere of the Rainbow and Home and Defying Gravity. And what I loved is that they just give 800%. Their art is so pure. Most actors would be so scared to go up on that stage or not want to put their neck out there on the world's biggest night of movies and to be that vulnerable. And I asked them, are you guys nervous? They're like, no, John, this is what we do. Wow. I was like, that's right. We're like, that's what our job is. And so to see them give that and even end up with no awards by the end of it, like, it just reaffirmed that that's why we do what we do. It's for the art. It's for our craft, and it's not for the awards and all the things, but to put that forward for all of the town to see and drop the mic in that way and something that will last forever. To me, that was just a perfect example of their work ethic. And what hopefully more people think about as they're making movies and things like that.
- [07:18]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, no, I think so, too. It was so funny for me. When I was in fourth grade, I did this Buckley summer school thing, and I sang Somewhere over the Rainbow as a solo.
- [07:30]
John Chu
You know, I'm sure you were amazing. Can you do it right now?
- [07:33]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
- [07:34]
John Chu
You know how viral that would go, right?
- [07:37]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I know. The producers are like, do it, do it. Nope. But it was just really funny to me because I had dinner with my mom and aunt the other night after the Oscars. My mom was like, oh, the Oscars this and that. And she was like, they were so amazing singing Somewhere over the Rainbow. And she went on and she's said, but, you know, you were better. Like, as only a mom would do. Right? I mean, only. Only a mom. But it was the best. Yeah, it was really so special. And I just, you know, there was so much that was magical about Wicked to me, and just. I mean, I know you've heard all the things. Beautiful. But for me, what. What was so powerful was the experience I had with the Ozdesk ballroom scene. And I saw it with my friend Otho, who I think he was seeing it for the second time in one or two weeks, but it was my first time, and I could not stop sobbing. And it was so much because. What, you and Cynthia and Ariana. But I think the magic between you and Cynthia in that scene that you captured public humiliation in a way that I think is hard to do. And since that movie, you know, there are times when people say, well, what was 1998 like? You're like, oh, a lot of fucking humiliation. But I mean, it's basically. I can point to that scene and say, it was this over and over and over again, but it captured it in such a way. And I think that was, you know, so many of us experience public humiliation in ways that it doesn't have to be, you know, on the front page of the New York Times. It could be in big and little ways in our communities and I think, too, feel seen in that way. And to sort of something where there's so much shame in being publicly humiliated that it just, to me, is one of the many gifts that this film gave us is like, it's a healing moment to not feel alone that way.
- [09:38]
John Chu
There's so much to hear.
- [09:39]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. It's just. And so I kind of want you to dissect everything about that for me. So just tell me a little about, you know, sort of what your thoughts were for that scene. How did it come about, you know, in that way?
- [09:53]
John Chu
Well, I really. It means a lot for you to say that, because I. We talked a lot about humiliation going into that scene. You know, when we're making a musical, there's different approaches to making a musical. I think you have to love musicals, and it has to sit really deep in your heart about why musicals are worthy of the big screen or worthy of being told as a kid, those songs express feelings that words just can't do. And you listen to these songs over and over. Dreaming as a kid. And my. You know, my family had a Chinese restaurant at the bar of my Chinese restaurant while doing homework, you know, humming songs that. That yearn for another place. And so I think that to me, knowing that we have this other tool to express the things in our lives that a scene, a piece of dialogue could never do is a really important piece to understanding what that section meant to all of us. I also think what we always tried to do, I think, in a musical, is bring truth to artifice. That music, movement, we call it dance, people tend to just take it at face value sometimes. But actually, what is making us feel is much different. The way the way the Rock leans against a post says so much about his character, and that's movement. The way we sit, the way our posture is, says so much of what we want to show to the world. Is it your face? Is it? Or are you humiliate and you come down? And so knowing that we have all these tools in our pocket to express this thing in a audio visual canvas, we have to explore very deeply what we're trying to say. And so having Cynthia, an amazing artist who is so emotionally available through their work, not every artist is. Sometimes it is trying to show that they can do the thing that they've seen before, or showing that they have the skills to match some other thing. But it is just so true to her. She brings it to everything. And same with Ariana Grande. And also, you know, Ari knows humiliation very deeply, too. I mean, she gets things every day on the Internet. And so when she's there, and she couldn't help but cry every moment of that because she felt it so deeply when everyone's laughing or everyone's hissing at Elphaba as she comes down. But she has to be the opposite of that. She has to be cracking open at that moment. So there was a lot of conversation of, like, you're awakening in this, so hold it back, watch her. But don't. You have never felt this, but your Character, maybe felt it deep down, but, like, hold it back. Like, she's built a giant wall. Don't let it out too soon. And she was really able to carve that and find the moments where she can actually walk into that. And for Cynthia, it was just exposure from the very beginning. And then it's choices. So it's not just walking down one. We clear the music. So you hear the visceral feeling of people laughing at you. And I know that feeling very well. I think everybody actually has some sort of experience where, you know that pressure, even in the silence. And when she walks down, she has to make a choice. It's not just knowing what she's doing. She actually doesn't know. So when she walks down, her choices, Cynthia Erivo's choice to put the hat down, look at her friend and force her to look at her, but then to turn around and say, I'm not gonna let this moment own me. You know, that's a whole movie of we've got to earn that moment. I think for her, and rather than her in the show, it's actually like a comedic moment. She does funny dances, and then actually it's Galinda who comes in and interprets that funny dance in a softer way that everybody then accepts. But we didn't want to go in that way.
- [14:03]
Monica Lewinsky
I forgot that when I was doing.
- [14:05]
John Chu
In the Heights and Anthony Ramos said something to me because he talks in a certain way, has a certain, like, you know, New York way about him. And I think someone. He's like, I auditioned for these roles, and I don't know how to talk the way other people want me to talk. I just talk the way I talk. And I think Lin is the one who said to Lin Manuel Miranda said to him, like, teach them how to understand. You. Don't change for them.
- [14:30]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, wow.
- [14:31]
John Chu
And that's always stuck with me because it's really true. Anthony Ramos is a standalone figure now. And when you see him, you hear him say, he's so unique. And for him to take that down to be accepted would be crazy.
- [14:47]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I have a crazy in the Heights story in that I was friends with someone who is very connected to the Drama Bookshop in New York and was sort of part of this crew and went to hear a reading and some singing, like a. What do you call a workshop? A workshop in the basement. This was in the early 2000s of Lin Manuel and In the Heights. And I have the CD from that.
- [15:15]
John Chu
You have that?
- [15:15]
Monica Lewinsky
It's incredible. I mean. And, you know, the song stayed the heart of the song stayed from what was there, although it was. For me, it was raw, you know, obviously in a. In a workshop, then once it's on Broadway, and I connected to the raw herb bit. But, yeah, so that was always fun. And I. Nobody would listen to me. I'm like, I saw this amazing thing and, you know, it needs to be out there. So I have good taste, but, you know, not enough street cred yet, but.
- [15:43]
John Chu
But it's not amazing that when you see someone go from the basement of the bookstore, who he now owns the bookstore, to then become Lin Manuel Miranda, a voice that has changed so much, like.
- [15:54]
Monica Lewinsky
And Tommy Kail. Tommy Kail. I got to know Tommy, you know.
- [15:58]
John Chu
So it's Alex Lacamore and all these people.
- [16:00]
Monica Lewinsky
It's incredible. But you said something that was really interesting. Just going back to the ballroom scene that I hadn't thought about, you know, in all the thinking I've done of this scene and feeling I've done about it, which was around Ariana's role and sort of. And that changing and thinking about how she had to hold this space in different ways. And there is this interesting thing about both the experience of public humiliation and the healing from it, that it doesn't happen alone, you know, like, you actually can't be publicly humiliated in a vacuum. Like, you know, it's sort of someone has to do something or something has to happen if you, you know, or you fuck up. And if you fuck up when you're by yourself, you're not publicly humiliated, you know, so it's that. It's sort of that social dynamic that's really interesting. And I. You know, my experience, you know, Elphaba reclaimed it in one song and it took me 20 years. But I think that it's. I've just seen for myself how it's been really a social and a collective process for me of being able to heal and reclaim that way. And I think that's. I think you capture that in that scene, too.
- [17:13]
John Chu
Yeah. And I think that's. I think process is the right word. Like, these are the beginnings of their awakenings for both of them. The beginning of Elphaba owning and sort of claiming her space, which is why when she moves, it's not a joke. She doesn't know how she fits in a space. So she's finding in her sharp angles, her space. This is something that Cynthia and our choreographers, Christopher Scott, we have a team of choreographers that are really helpful as well. So they all work together to find how she's going to move, of course, led by Cynthia in finding. Is it a spell? No, it's just a power she feels. And so it's a very. And of course, the studio's also scared. Like, what is she doing? It's so uncomfortable. And you're like, that is. The point is for us as an audience to feel uncomfortable looking at this and then having Glynda actually step into the light or actually in the darkness. You know, we played a lot with light and dark in this movie in our cinematography, Alice Brooks, who's amazing. It was the truth is in the shadows and the lies are in the light. Wow. And so you see.
- [18:19]
Monica Lewinsky
Did you guys use that as a. Did you use that as promo taglines?
- [18:23]
John Chu
No, we did not. We did not. We did not.
- [18:26]
Monica Lewinsky
No. That's really. That's really sticky. Like, that's just a really beautiful thing to connect to.
- [18:31]
John Chu
And if you watch it, too, it's always in the sunrise and Elphaba is always in the sun. And so the two are sort of. Throughout the whole movie are sort of combining. So the sun rises in the opening of the movie and the sort of setting in the end of the movie, and they're sort of. They cross. And the Oz dust is that center spot where they both cross. And so we're in this light underneath water that's above us. And for Glinda, to me, it's like, she's not the one humiliated at that point. She's actually in a privileged position. And I think a lot of Arthur, our journey with Glinda, and we'll continue that in movie two, is there is something for the bully or for the person in the privileged position to actively do if they choose to do it? It's who you become when you know the truth. And I think that's the question about wicked for us, is wicked. And then she asked the question, literally, are you born wicked or is wickedness thrust upon you? And I hope we're showing that you could be either on any day. And it's okay. Some days you're good and some days you're wicked. And we owe each other some forgiveness and some grace on those wicked days. But I hope that we choose more good days than the wicked days. And so we'll see that throughout this relationship. But when she steps in, it's her for the first crack of her awakening, is putting herself into the darkness and stepping into that, not knowing what's next and then trying to dance or find the space with Elphaba. And like you said, they're doing it together. And to me, that's both not knowing what the next step of that. And that changes everything. That allows them to become friends in the next scene, allows Popular to be fun. That it's not just a makeover scene to make Elphaba different, but it's actually showing her. Showing Elphaba her world. Because she doesn't actually change Elphaba in the end. No, it's just showing her, like. And she says right before that scene of Popular, she says, it's not your fault. It was the milk flower's fault. And it's just so simply done. If you look at Cynthia's face, Cynthia Elphabet has never thought about it that simply. It's always been complicated for her. It's always like, but it may be my fault. I did it. But for Glinda to say, no, it's not. And then she said, and the sun is coming up. And she says, look, it's tomorrow. To me, that's like, everything.
- [20:56]
Monica Lewinsky
Now I'm gonna watch it again. Cause now I feel I'm like, oh, okay. You know. No, it's really. It's just such a. I can't wait for the second one to come out. And it was such a beautiful experience. The producers and I were having an interesting conversation, you know, coming into this interview, just around storytelling and identity and the role that they sort of play in informing each other both. And you got into filmmaking really early, right? Yeah.
- [21:22]
John Chu
So I grew up, and my parents are immigrants. So they came in here believing this American dream and set that upon us, like, you should want to be president of the United States. You know, growing up at that time, the story of you can follow your dreams was so big, was so intrinsic in our. In how we were taught about the world. And I think. And having a camera in my hand allowed me, and especially the youngest of five, you sometimes get lost in the shuffle. So you have to either be louder than everybody else. I mean, when they bring food to the table, you better dig in there, or you're not getting any food. And so we were. You know, I was a survivor at that point, really, like getting food. But then with the camera in your hand, suddenly I could step back and I could observe. And in a weird way, the camera in front of me gave me permission to go anywhere. Groups that at school, that I could never just go in and say, hey, guys, what do you. I didn't know how to even do that. This camera, when I went over there, they all wanted to be on camera. Like, oh, what's that?
- [22:22]
Monica Lewinsky
Let's talk.
- [22:23]
John Chu
And this is before cell phones and all that stuff. So. But they're inviting me in, and they're talking to the camera, and then I go to the next group, and I could go with the basketball team and hang out in the gym with them, because I'm getting behind the scenes. And I would cut it, and when I showed it to them, they loved it. They were like. And then they became. They were like, stay around. Come shoot this. And so it was a access point for me, and I. And even showing my parents the first thing I edited of our. Of our family vacation, they started crying when they watched it.
- [22:51]
Monica Lewinsky
Why?
- [22:53]
John Chu
Because media, music, movies, it's what they saw America as, and they wanted us to fit in so badly. And suddenly there was a video of our family on vacation to oldies music. And we looked so normal to them. And I remember thinking, wow, this is. I have. There's. I can. I can do this. I'm not the best drawer, but I love to draw. I. I play the drums. I'm a terrible drummer, violinist, all those things. But I. But I liked it. But with this, I could do. I knew all those little things started to weave together, and then, because I was so inbred in this idea of optimism and our dreams, that I loved making stories about that. It wasn't until later in my life where I'm like, oh, I don't know if there is a yellow brick road that was meant for me. And I don't know if there is a man on the other side of that curtain that's going to give you our heart's desire, even though we were promised all these things, so what is that? And then finding my own voice, my own path off the yellow brick road and trying to say, what is my path for this? That's where everything changed for me. I had to deconstruct this American story that was built for me and rebuild it now that I have children. Find ways to rebuild it in a way that we got all the greatness of what dreaming gave to me. And yet retrofit it in a way of maybe a more realistic look at what it will take to get those dreams.
- [24:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Thanks so much to Audible, our presenting sponsor. Let Audible expand your life by listening. Look, we're all trying to better ourselves, right? And sometimes finding the time to sit down and read can feel impossible. With Audible, you'll have access to over a million audiobooks and podcasts right at your fingertips, whether you're going for a walk or just making dinner. And by making dinner, I also mean ordering, delivery. You can tap into all this amazing content, from thought leaders to experts who really get it. And let me tell you something, whatever you're interested in, it's there. If you're into health and wellness, they've got you covered. Trying to get into meditation, there's stuff for that too. Looking for a good laugh? Oh my gosh, so much good content and being able to listen while you're doing other things makes it so much more doable. Let Audible help you reach the goals you've set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com reclaiming thanks so much to our sponsor, Reformation. I want to take a second to talk about one of my favorite clothing brands, Reformation. You've probably seen Reformation on Instagram or at a wedding. They make the best guesting dresses. But if you're like me, you may have thought that's all they do, well, you're in for a pleasant surprise. Last year they worked with Yours Truly and Vote.org on a campaign to empower voters to take part in the democratic process and show off their workwear. From doing the campaign and getting to know the brand even better. I love their sweaters, blouses, workwear, shoes and bags. But most important, I love how confident I feel in their stuff. Plus, it really holds up since they make everything with super high quality, sustainable materials. Reformation is also a brand that uses their growing platform to do good in the world and especially in the sustainable fashion space. As they say, being naked is the number one most sustainable option. Reformation is number two. If you're looking for clothes you wanna feel great in and feel better about, head to reformation.com I'm wandering around like this idea of so your parents are seeing this film, they're seeing reflected to them this dream that they had for themselves and their children of this American dream. And you know, and in some ways maybe American parents do this too, right? That notion of keeping up with the Joneses. But what struck me about what you said was this idea of your identity is sort of not coming from you. It's sort of being put on you. In a sense, yes.
- [27:04]
John Chu
No, totally. It was necessary for us. Like, I don't. I'm not sad that we got that story because I'm really grateful for that. If I didn't have that base to believe that we could do anything and be anything, and a lot of Chinese families, even in that area, we're not getting what we were getting. Our parents were different. They allowed us to chase these things to Go to shows every weekend to see musicals and operas and ballets. Like, they were obsessed with the Kennedys. They wanted us. My mom literally would dress us in polo and whatever she thought we were the Kennedys. She called me John. John. Wow. So I'm grateful for that. But I think that moment where you're like, would you grow up? Well, you have to break the story and accept that that story was helpful. But that doesn't mean it needs to stay with you now. And it doesn't mean that's what my children need. So that is hard to say. My parents weren't perfect. Maybe they were exactly what they needed to be at that moment. But this story will not just cannot be the way it is for my. But even when we're in the Bay Area, they publicly acted a certain way because you're the host of a restaurant that everyone would come to. To be accepted into the club, you gotta act a certain way. And they were very heavy on that. But, you know, at home, we had this pile in the garage of stuff. And it was so embarrassing. Literally a pile like you couldn't get into the garage. And that was always hidden and always closed. And I remember when my friends came over and saw it and they just laughed and made so much fun of it. And I felt such shame that I never invited a friend to go into that area again.
- [28:50]
Monica Lewinsky
What's interesting to me about this pile concept is I've had to do a lot of decluttering work over the years. And so there's this idea of a story attached to something is really interesting. And I have found that interesting idea of how we store energy, in a sense, but. But also. And I have this problem with paper. I'm not a hoarder, but like paper, it will take me a long time to go through paper. And sort of sometimes I need company to be able to even open the mail or all that other shit. But I read somewhere that I make this joke all the time. I had clutter from decluttering books that I had bought of all these ways to get over it. But they talk about that you hold onto things because you're afraid you won't be provided for in the future. And so I wonder if there's even an element of that in the pile.
- [29:42]
John Chu
I also think it's like. And this goes back to the story we're told, and especially in that time in the 80s and 90s, like all the fairy tales, all the movies, this idea that there's an arc to life, that there's the beginning. There's the middle. And then we all live happily ever after. And to me, you know, as I get older, you realize like, oh, no, no, no, it goes up and down. The chair breaks. You fix it. The chair breaks again. You gotta fix it again. It's like it is the process of it. And I think especially immigrants or especially my family tries to freeze time because we had this great arc of starting this restaurant and the kids were all together and we're all at high school together and there's banners on the gym wall of my older brother and I' films. And then now we all go. And I think when your whole life is dedicated to your children, it's really hard to say change is happening. And so you hold because that should be the happy ending. We had our happy ending. We had it cut to 10 years later. We had our happy ending. We had. And I'm changing and the house has not changed, they have not moved, the restaurant has not moved. And I love my parents so much, they know that. But it's sometimes very difficult because you're in a frozen state. And I empathize with that. I would love for my mom to let go of the 10 year old self in me. I don't know if I'm capable of that with my children, who knows? I have empathy for that. But I know that what I do in my stories is try to not give a definitive happy ending. I love optimism, I love hope, but not naive naivete. I want it to feel, feel like within that darkness of the messiness of life that hope still pokes through, humanity, still fights through. And that, you know, in movie, you know, in Wicked, we specifically look at the American story. It's the American fairy tale from L. Frank Baum that he wrote at a time when America was changing and in transition. And even when Wicked was written and when it was made into a musical in times of transition, that was 2000, 99, 2000, when you know everything's changing in the Middle east. And this idea that kicking the tires of the American story. So Wicked takes a new perspective of the American fairy tale. And so we. And even in, even in the way, you know, the Industrial revolution or how we travel in Oz, you'll see us starting from the very ground over water with boats, or for walking to water, with boats, to bicycles, to trains, to flights. Like there is a big American sort of history in the most American genre of movies, which is the musical. And we actually take from American movie sort of inspiration whether we're coming into shiz and it's Like Fast times at Ridgemont High and you're coming in there. Or it's like ET when she's flying in the distance and the wind is going and we have the big drums going. There's a lot of references because it is about where we are as America and how we break the story, how we look at our story differently. And we get more in that. In the movie, too.
- [32:59]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, it's a. For many, it feels like a hard story to keep turning the page on right now, you know. So where do you think you sort of developed the ability to move to hope, but stop just short of naivete?
- [33:17]
John Chu
Well, I think most of my life it was naivete. I think I lived in that bubble for a long time.
- [33:22]
Monica Lewinsky
And then.
- [33:24]
John Chu
And then what.
- [33:25]
Monica Lewinsky
What popped the bubble?
- [33:26]
John Chu
You're alone in la. Well, I'll tell you what. The first time I felt a racial. I mean, I. There's been things throughout my whole life, but I never pay attention. My kindergarten teacher, my preschool teacher, actually, we'd known her for all our lives. Every time we came back from college, she'd whisper. She'd be so kind. She's very kind. I don't know. Very old at that time. And she. And she would say things like, oh, remember, stay within your race. Don't dirty it up, like so. But whispering it in our ears. And we would laugh about it. I remember us all the kids would talk about it. Like, that's so weird. What is she doing? Like, but it. But if I heard it now, that would be like, holy moly. So it was always in our lives. And I just. You just. We never let it get to us. But I remember at USC and we were watching the senior films, and they choose four directors, and you're watching it, and it was this romantic comedy. And so we're all, like, in awe of these four directors who got chosen. And this one was about dating. And the woman's going out with all these dates and the. I think she's opening these doors. And it's like random people, like the nerd, the whatever. And they're all like, bad choices. And the last one is an Asian guy. And there's nothing wrong with him. He's not actually playing. He's just the Asian guy. And everyone laughs. And I. The first. I never. I did not understand the joke. I literally was like, what's funny? And I turned to my friend, who are also laughing, like, what's so funny? And they're like, oh, well, you know, he's like. He's like Asian. Like, she's not gonna. That's, like, the joke. And that really threw me. I just had never experienced that kind. I was like, this is usc, but yeah, what are we talking about here? And so I was determined. I was like, when I make. When I get that job one day in a couple years, I'm gonna make the most anti version of that. I'm gonna make the one that talks about what it's like to be Asian American, which I had never talked about. Our parents did not want us to talk about. Like, even though we were in a Chinese restaurant, we were sharing all this stuff. It's like, if you talk about your race, you're only gonna be seen as the Asian director, and you're gonna invite that into your life. And for survival, you just keep going forward. And so I watched that, and then a couple years later, I got the job. And so I wrote that script of that experience, seeing that movie. And I called the movie Guai Lo, which means foreigner, Little foreigner, Devil, Foreign Devil. And it was the scariest thing I had done up to that point of exploring what it meant to be Asian American. And it was a musical, so it was really crazy.
- [35:58]
Monica Lewinsky
Shouldn't be surprised.
- [35:59]
John Chu
And we showed it, and it was huge. Huge reactions, great reactions. But I felt so. Even just ashamed by it. Like, I felt like I didn't know the answers to what I was saying in there. It was the first time I'd explored it, and I didn't know I put experiences in there, like my fraternity brothers nicknaming me napalm. And, like, people would not believe that those things happen. And I didn't know how to really say, well, that really did happen. I was just like, oh, maybe I'm. Maybe I am being, like, weird with all this stuff. And so I'd never sent that short out to anywhere. I never sent it to film festivals. And your whole crew is depending on you to send it out and get it seen. And we had such a great reaction. But I felt very. Shh. I couldn't show it. I wasn't ready to show it. I didn't feel like I wasn't equipped with what to say. I didn't even know what I was supposed to say with it. So that just disappeared. And so then I did my next musical right after that was about the secret life of mothers. And it was this big, rousing musical. And that's what actually got me into the business, everyone. That's what Steven Spielberg saw. That's how I got my first job. So in a weird way, by avoiding the Asian American identity story. I was rewarded in a way that made my entry into Hollywood. And so I was. That's where I was gonna go. I was like, that's right. This is what. This is what my parents said. Like, you just be a director and you just be the best director there can be. And I did that for 10 years, made movies with the Rock and Bruce Willis and Morgan Freeman and all these people. And at the end of those 10 years and half the time, I'm just, like, trying to be. Trying to feel like I'm worthy of Hollywood. Like, I was young. I didn't do music videos or commercials before ever doing my first feature. It was like, oh, my gosh.
- [37:48]
Monica Lewinsky
Really?
- [37:49]
John Chu
That short film, like, wow. Catapulted me in.
- [37:52]
Monica Lewinsky
Wow.
- [37:53]
John Chu
There was a span of five years where I didn't make my. I was developing all these movies. As you all know, developing can go, oh, my God. And those were hard days. And we can get into that too. But that those were up and down days and days where, yeah, I had to. I had to figure out how to survive and didn't want to embarrass, you know, myself or my family during that time. But then I did get my first movie and I did start making movies. So half the time I'm like, I think I won the lottery by getting this job. Right now I just have to keep. Stay here. Like, just get by. Just keep proving myself. After about six movies, studio movies, I'm working with Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman, with Jesse Eisenberg, Mark Ruffalo in this one movie. And I'm looking around and I could feel myself hit the 10,000 hours. Like, I could feel being like, oh, I know what I'm doing. I know exactly. I do belong here. And then it hit me like, and what are you doing here in this movie? Like, what are you saying with this movie? And I didn't quite have the answer. Like, I was working this movie was going to make money. I was working with great actors. But, like, anyone could make this movie. What are you trying to say? And that threw me a lot. It's also, at the same time I met my future wife. So everything was changing in my brain. And so I got back from that experience and told my team that I'd worked for 20 years with saying, like, I want to clear my slate. I don't want to do GI Joe 3. I don't want to do now youw See Me Through. I don't want to do all these things. I need to find the movie that I need that I'M destined to do that only I can do. I won't make you guys any money. I'm so sorry. For five years, but I need to do this. And so I went on a search for something about the thing that scared me the most, my cultural identity crisis. To revisit that. It's at the same time that OscarsSoWhite was happening. So there was campaigns online. And what's interesting about the Internet is it can be very poisonous. But also that's where some communities have been found and the Asian American community was building up there, connecting dots. Suddenly you're like, oh, you're like me. You're not like the foreigner. You're like a person who was born here and knows exactly your parents have a pile just like mine. And there's no movies about this or there's no. And we need to connect the dots here. So I went on a search to explore this. I was, I felt like I was ready to explore this thing I didn't know of. And we, I found crazy Rich Asians. The book, and it wasn't about self identity really, but an Asian American going to Asia for the first time, I knew that experience. I was like, that is how the best way to tell this. An all American girl going to Asia, having the experience of feeling the cultural acceptance, but then also feeling like, oh yeah, you're not a part of this either. And finding your own, not how much you're worth, but your self worth through this journey was everything to me. And so I could really port my what I wanted to say into this movie. And it could be funny, it could be delightful, it could feel basically like a musical. I could do all the things and I could bring people into my world and, and that's what happened which changed everything. And from then on when you. And to see that, I thought no one was going to see it. Oh, quickly, apparently they did. So that was good. I did launch all these careers of all these people. To me, once you experience that, you, there's no going back. Right.
- [41:20]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, and, and, and also cracked open, I think in cinema, in American cinema, cracked open a new way of seeing an Asian role, you know. But then also I think about my own experience was probably reading Joy Luck Club, you know, which was one of the few books that I had the thing of, oh, I'm not going anywhere, I'm not doing anything until I finish this book. I was so immersed and for me, maybe some of the connection I had with that was because the Asian culture was. My grandma had been born in China. My mom raised in Japan. It was very much a part of, like, we call Flip Flop Zori's, you know, so sort of, you know, that way. Were you scared at all to show your parents that film, or were they just proud the whole way through?
- [42:05]
John Chu
No, actually, that's a great question. Cause I was very scared of showing my parents because I have a point of view of what my upbringing and what it feels like. And they may not share that point of view. However, I had Michelle Yeoh and Michelle Yeoh in our first conversation. I was like, oh, my gosh, she would be so great as Eleanor the mom. She's like, the book makes Eleanor the villain. And I'm just telling you, I'm not playing a villain in this. I can't go back to my friends and be just the villainous mom. Our culture, what we believe, has certain validations that it's not just this stupid American girl is going to say and just, like, own that. I was like, perfect. Because that's what exactly what this is about. It's about that all the what you believe is necessary and what she believes is necessary for her. And to find those two things and find peace in those two things is what I need to find for myself. So you need to help me find what those. Where that island is that we can all be at. And so I love that moment at the end of the mahjong scene because that is where they get to air it out. And both of them kept sending me notes about what they should be saying to each other in that scene. And so they both didn't know there was all these adjustments to what they wanted to say. And so we sort of let it play out on the set. And so they both got to say how they felt. And, you know, Constance has a lot of strong feelings about how she was raised and. And how she is as a woman now. And same thing with Michelle. So it was great to have that battle over a game of mahjong and have the sounds and the rhythms of that and then have this idea of sacrifice. Cause I think that's what it came down to was like, do Americans understand sacrifice through this generation? And I think we do. We may not have the sacrifice of war.
- [44:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [44:01]
John Chu
But we have the heart of it and we understand. And so I thought it was interesting to actually play that out in the game where she could have won, but she folds it and walks away. And then her mom is on that other side and grabs her arm just like the way my mom would grab my arm, like, so trash Now I'm.
- [44:18]
Monica Lewinsky
Gonna cry again, but just the way your mom grabbed your arm.
- [44:22]
John Chu
Yeah. And I always thought it was like. It's like Batman and Joker and their kids fell in love. And like, this class difference between these two people, this cultural difference between these two women, their kids have a power that neither of them have, that they can heal it and bring it together. And to me, that was always what the movie. It was not about the couple coming together, of course, we give that at the end, but the movie, when we structured it, we realized the movie has to emotionally end here. This should feel like we could go to black right after this. And so it was very important to fit all those pieces so that the extra stuff is almost like an epilogue of, like, and these things happen. It's whatever. But, like, that moment was what we were aiming for.
- [45:04]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. It's so interesting because I think I'm thinking about it now in a way that I hadn't before of just all the things you accomplished in that film. Because it's not just, I think, the different classes of the two women of the same generation. You have the American and the Asian culture, but then you also have that generational divide, too, which I think is. And I think that's. That in large part is people connected to the movie because you did these things so well. It's just a reflection of how we connect to all the same things in movies. And it all comes back to story and storytelling.
- [45:41]
John Chu
And by the way, there were comedians who were working who had done a lot of these, who promoted movies before, but they just were never the stars. There were models who had done this. There was Michelle Yeoh who was working. There was. Everyone was working. They just weren't number one on the call sheet. And they weren't allowed to just stretch and do what they do best. And so in a weird way, I had known all these. Not known personally, but I had been fans of all these people. I wrote down my Avengers of Asian cast and I was like, you get Gemma Chan, you get Michelle Yeoh, you get Constance, you get Jimmy Oyang, you get Ronnie, and you put them in a movie like we are. And because we were the first, the well was deep. No, they weren't booked. They were doing bit parts here and there. It's like, let's bring us all together and let me. Let's write to what you do and let's talk. And so when we would have dinners together, it was fascinating because they're also from around the world. It wasn't just Asian American. They were from the UK or from Australia. And so we got to share in our journeys from actors and people and writers, even from all around the world. And it was very. It was a release actually for us. And then I would listen and there'd be little things that we could put in each scene. I always say at some point I can plan my movies all I want, but at some point the movie starts to speak back to you. And you're either gonna lean into that or you're gonna fight it and keep making your structure. But my style is to lean into that, and I love that. It's what's drawing me into the movie, what I couldn't think of. When I'm in my bedroom or in a conference room and when I lean in and we're all finding it together, there's like, that's where to me, the magic happens in a movie. And things that are unique to that movie only happen when we're all present and paying attention to what's happening every day. It's scary cause you don't know.
- [47:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I was just thinking, because in a way, what that requires is a trust in self, a reliance on intuition. How do you think you develop that over the course of your life and career?
- [47:39]
John Chu
Well, that's why I think it all comes to your self worth and how you see yourself. And that's not an easy thing. I mean, I think you have to go through some shit to find it. And I didn't know what I had to go through to find my confidence in my work. I don't know how I got to those 10,000 hours. I know there was stuff that happen. I mean, when you make a five year period, there's both. There was that five year period where you've been announced to do all these projects. You're already speaking at schools because they want to know, like, wow, you're 23 years old and you're making a studio film. How did you do it? And you're making. And you're in magazines and yet you haven't made your first movie yet. And so there's that imposter syndrome that's happening right there. And then you're like, did I miss this moment? And then I remember going, you know, driving my friend to USC because I had to drive their cars. Broken. I had to drive them. And then I knew that I had gotten off of a project. Gotten kicked off of a project yet.
- [48:33]
Monica Lewinsky
Bye Bye Birdie.
- [48:34]
John Chu
This was Bye Bye Birdie. Yes. Okay. Or the project just fell apart. So we hadn't announced it yet. But I knew, and I was at usc, and I just started to weep in the loading dock where I used to always be when I was going there, looking at all these people like they have no idea. And I didn't know how to tell my parents. I didn't know how to tell anybody. And so it's moments like that where you. Again, it's such a privileged thing, to be honest. I'm not fighting a war or anything. But your own self feels like it. Cause your home self is collapsing at.
- [49:03]
Monica Lewinsky
That moment or within.
- [49:04]
John Chu
And we didn't have Twitter at that point, so it wasn't like being reminded of it every second. Later in my life, when people can comment on your movies, that's a whole nother. I mean, it's a very public job. Like, what other job was. When you do your work, it's not just like your company assessing you. It's like the world is assessing you.
- [49:25]
Monica Lewinsky
That's a good point.
- [49:26]
John Chu
And the world telling you, because they're all experts at making movies, and apparently now they're all experts at coloring and lighting and music, and they're telling you why you're an idiot. But the only way out is through. And so for me, it's like those 10,000 hours we're barreling through those times when. When I released a movie called Gem and the Holograms, which I loved. And I think it was the widest, lowest box office for the widest opening ever. Thank you very much.
- [49:57]
Monica Lewinsky
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [49:59]
John Chu
And that was. Yeah, I was like, I'm never working again. They hate me. Oh, my gosh. Are my instincts so off that they. And that is a very. You have to reassess. And that time there was the Internet, so I'm reading all of this stuff, too. And so how do you pick yourself up? I don't actually remember how I picked myself up other than I fell in love with making movies. I did not fall in love with releasing movies. I fell in love with the process. I fell in love with thinking of an idea and figuring out how to make it real. Working with my friends or actually forcing my friends to be in it to make it real or editing something in not knowing how to do it and going through the manual and figuring it out and then knowing that knowledge or working with dancers and discovering all these dancers that have such amazing stories that you could never cast them in if you didn't know they actually existed already. So to me, it was all process, and I had to go through that, because when the destination collapses in front of you. Then you go back and you why am I doing this? Do I still want to do this? It becomes. It reminds you that it is actually the whole process that you're in love with. It is why I exist. Like, I cannot. If I didn't, if I wasn't directing movies, I don't know, I would have no skill set. I mean, you put me on an island, I got nothing to do. I'll entertain. I'll figure out some way to put entertainment on, but I'm not. And. But it was going through that. That you reassess all that.
- [51:25]
Monica Lewinsky
It's interesting, because what this reminds me of is. And we'll see if there's a connection there or not. But when I was preparing to do my TED Talk, I just got. There was just a period of time where I got so wrapped up in, you know, the. How are people gonna respond? And isn't, da, da, da. You know, all. All the things, what am I gonna wear? This, that and the other. And the woman that I worked with, Pippa, who. Who helped me with delivery. Because you know that, well, as a director, you will know there's a chasm between how you think you're doing something in your head and how it's being received, Right? And there was a point where she just sort of drilled down with me of like, why does this matter outside of you? And I ended up writing at the top of my script. This matters. And it mattered for other people. And when I was able to step into sort of this, to me, this is feeling like it's not about the release of the movie, it's about the making of the movie. And to me, it was about, you know, that parallel for me felt, in a way, with. With the talk, which is when it's not about sort of, what does this mean for me? It's about, what does it mean for the people who are receiving it, you know, in that way.
- [52:39]
John Chu
When I worked with Jesse Eisenberg, who wouldn't look at the monitors, doesn't look. Watches movies. And he said something very profound to me. I was like, why don't you look? Don't you want to know? And he's like, I used to look. And he's like, I couldn't be present when I look because I kept thinking, like, how are they going to edit this? How are they going to light this? Why do I have that thing? And he's like, as an actor, I wanted to give the director or whoever, the best version of this character, which is as present in the space, whatever. You do with it. It's out of my control. It's out of my life. He's like, I became a much better actor when I released that and said, my only job is to be as present and real and write this moment. And I think that, that as a director, it's easy to get caught up in all the stuff that's after. But, like, my job is to deliver this piece and work with all these people and. And find our collective magic and put that in the bottle and put that on the shelf and how people take it, that's gonna be up to them. Like, I don't. We have access to how everybody thinks about everything now, but doesn't mean that that should affect anything we're doing. Of course, what we make is entertainment. So, yeah, and some. Some directors don't. Don't have that bug. They just want to make their art and walk away. But I do feel like part of the difficulty of this job is how do you bring an audience in as wide as you can, but say something that is. That is meaningful or that is nutritious for their souls or a discovery or a sharing or a reflection of something we're going through? So you don't feel alone because it is a collective community of people watching a movie together, dreaming together. So I try to find. To me, I think that's an important piece of this. So anyway, to me, that. That's an interesting thing.
- [54:14]
Monica Lewinsky
It sounds to me like maybe from the Bye Bye Birdie and Jem experience it, that you felt a little public humiliation from that. Did you draw on that in the back to the ballroom scene? Did you draw on that at all for the ballroom scene? Did you feel like you drew. Do you draw on your own personal experience that way?
- [54:33]
John Chu
Absolutely. And there was another experience within the Heights that I, you know, I poured everything into this movie of in the Heights. And I love this movie. It's probably the best craft that I could do on camera.
- [54:45]
Monica Lewinsky
I loved it.
- [54:46]
John Chu
I love it. I mean, it's the highest rated movie of that year, but people didn't show up. I mean, it was during COVID and there's a lot of things happening, and it was hard to receive that. And it wasn't just people showing up. There was criticism of this and that and a lot of details. And when you're on the front lines of trying to share culture, you open yourself up to being at the standards of what everybody needs from that. Why don't you have this in it? Why don't you have that in it? And I had to you can either fight those things and try to tear these people down.
- [55:16]
Monica Lewinsky
Good luck. Good luck.
- [55:18]
John Chu
Or you can sort of fulfill the promise of what you said this whole thing was about, which is listen and not let listening destroy your soul. Either you're either built for this or you're not. Because other directors can make movies about anything they want. And the pressure is a different pressure than when you're actually stepping into representing a culture, which is what we ask of people these days. It's just you're putting yourself in fire. And are you prepared for that? And so during the in the Heights process, I really had to accept that I cannot back down from making these kind of movies. I'd done Crazy Rich Asians in the Heights, and I wanted to do one more at this moment that completed this. Not completed, but, like, really sort of summed up this, what I called my. The New View trilogy for me. Okay, Americana fairy tales or stories through a new perspective. You know, for crazy rich Asians, it was the romantic comedy through a totally new lens. In the Heights was the musical of the community story, but of this bodega owner and that they have. The. The people on this block have as big a dreams as a musical, as a Broadway musical. In that apartment building, they're dreaming all the big things the whole building can turn. That it's not just like, they're on the street singing about this and that. They're playing basketball. It's like, no, it's as beautiful and glamorous as all your dreams can be. So for me, those were that. And so it was to survive that and say, no, I. This is where. This is my job now. I. I cannot do anything else. I have to find. This is my voice, the uniqueness that I'm bringing to this business. And I have power to actually get movies made that can be seen around the world. I have to use that. Otherwise, why am I here? What am I contributing to this art that I really love? So that helped me go into Wicked, because Wicked, at first blush, could be. Well, it's just a musical that we're adapting from Broadway. But when I realized those words of, you know, well, something has changed within me. Something's not the same. Elphaba, a woman of color who hadn't been played by a woman of color on Broadway permanently. Every time I read those words, it was like, this is speaking where we're at right now. Like, this is during COVID when I got the job. So it was right in the. Actually at the end part of the shutdown. And and it felt like we are all in this moment of change. Like the world is growing up, America is growing up. We're discovering the stories we were told may be not true. The government may not know exactly what they're doing. It may be a mess. So what do you do now? And how are you gonna. How do we, like, still have hope and vision? And how are we gonna. How do we react to this? And the story of Elphaba really told that Glinda, the person of privilege who can ignore the person who's been judged and been othered their whole lives and yet has so much power to offer. And through this journey of both movies, we'll see how important it is for the person of privilege to pop their bubble if they want, because they don't have to. It takes just as much courage to pop your bubble, to be a true ally. Not a performative ally, but a true ally to somebody who feels othered and a person who feels othered. When you do feel empowered to declare your stance against everything, that's just the beginning of the story. Cause in movie two, it's the consequences of those choices. And those choices, those consequences are not easy. And they test you. Why would you want to stay at a home that doesn't want you, that doesn't value you? Why stay here to fight for anything? Why don't you just leave? Those questions will be asked in this movie. So anyway, Wicked really informs all of these things. And that scene in the Oz dust is like the egg sort of shaking before attaching in that.
- [59:13]
Monica Lewinsky
How long did it take for them to get comfortable with this vision of what you guys had created?
- [59:19]
John Chu
Well, I love our studio. They've been great to us. They really trusted. For a movie this big, with this amount of money on the line, with this giant property, they really left us alone. I mean, oftentimes we say in interviews and stuff, it's like, it felt like we were making a little independent movie. We were protected on many layers of that, and it truly was. I mean, I've done other big movies that I felt more of the risk on top of me, whereas this one, I don't know, they're very. I mean, Donna Langley is the best in the business, so to have her there. So when they see something that they're like, oh, that's very uncomfortable to sit there that long. Does it have to be as long do we have to do that? That was one conversation. And we did trim it a little bit to get into a zone. But they let us decide, like what that zone was so credit to them. They know what they're doing. It's why they're one of the best studio. But Stephen Schwartz was a little bit tougher because they've done this show for 20 years. They know all the beats. They know where the joke happens. They know where the things happen. And so to get comfortable with a scene like that, that they've known for 20 years, that the different angle on it, that was a little bit. He had to really kick the tires. And credit to Stephen Schwartz because it's never dogma. It's like he will listen, but he's gonna test you. He's gonna make sure that your arguments are sane and that they're strong. And so there was a point where he's like, this is not. It's unpopular. When she says, you're beautiful, that's. That's the most emotional moment in the show. And I'm like, well, it isn't in this movie. Like, I don't know what to tell you, but the proof is in the pudding. I didn't necessarily purposely do that. It's just we're drawn to this moment as the most active moment for Elphaba to feel her power. And not flying power, but her self power. It's the first stake in the ground that allows her to fly. That when she puts on the hat, is not out of shame and is actually not even out of defiance. Because he wanted defiance. I'm like, she's not strong enough yet. Like, I think it's a step of, like, I don't. I'm accepting this as all my faults. And I don't know what to do next. Because if she had defiance and ready, then you don't need Glinda. And it's not like she needs Galinda to help her. It's just you're alone in something when you have a Someone else who's willing to go there with you. That's actually the whole movie is the relationship between what of this. Of this relationship that goes. And then for a temporary time that is actually valuable. That it isn't. Just because it was temporary doesn't mean it's less valuable. And that they brought things to each other's lives and they can go and do their own destinies in their own separate ways. So he came around for sure. But it took, like me saying to him, which is very difficult, to someone who has written every song in this, who's done every lyric saying, you know, this is the actual moment. It's not about defiance.
- [62:22]
Monica Lewinsky
Do you think? Has anybody written about this yet of just sort of the cause. I've heard you say this in different ways about the film too, of the reflection of the times we're in, that it's just interesting to think about Stephen's perspective and the world in which he created from that. And so looking at that, you're reflecting how things have moved and how things have changed. That's really interesting.
- [62:49]
John Chu
Yeah. That's why we connected, unfortunately. These are timeless messages of what is truth and things people in power. But I. But I think that's why we connected is because I could give another perspective of that perspective. And to me, it felt very. I couldn't get into Wicked if it felt like it was just an adaptation. It had to have urgency and had to have a reason to be. And the moment it was like a person like Cynthia Erivo to play Elphaba, to say all those words in ways that we've never heard it before, was a whole refresh to me, was like, this actually has to do with exactly where we are today.
- [63:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Mm. Yeah. It's amazing. I mean, and you're. I don't know how much you. You can say on this, but I'm thinking about that in moving forward, you're not leaving strong women behind because one of your next projects is Brittany. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So you said that you were. Part of why you were interested in this was because the story of stars that we think we own. And I had had an experience really recently with a journalist whom I really like, kind of offline, but is a tough journalist and someone who had been a journalist in 98 and had a little bit of a back and forth with this person around, doing something with them about the podcast coming out. And I had a strong reaction to a communication of ours, and I was really bothered by it. And I was walking and thinking, and what had settled for me was I had felt so owned by everybody and that there was this feeling in the communication that I somehow owed this person, this doing this interview with them or whatever that was. And that feeling of like. And so when I read that quote of yours, it just really connected to me. And so I'm just curious about, you know, if you can say, like, how you see that coming out in the film. And I know it's early days, right? I know it's early, early days.
- [64:59]
John Chu
It's really early. We haven't even written a script yet. But of course I've thought about Britney and her story and trying to find what's worthy of Britney Spears as someone we put up on a pedestal for many years. But also a look at how we treat people. How we treat. Like you said, what do we think that they owe us? Because I think that, that you know, when you're a person in the public eye and you're on the Internet and people, people make you a part of a character in their own story and parasocial relationships.
- [65:33]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh yeah, right.
- [65:34]
John Chu
And it's not, it's not natural. We are not meant. I was not meant to know what people were whispering about me in the hallways of my high school. If I had known that, I would have crumbled a long, long time ago. I wouldn't have had the space, maybe the naivete to build a foundation to build off of. So when I think of someone like Brittany, but I really think it looks at anybody, at any, especially females, especially young females. Really? Yeah. We think that they have to answer to everything. We think they have to speak up about everything. I did a documentary on Justin Bieber. I traveled around with him watching 14 Year Old Kid, like be chosen by the world to be their superstar.
- [66:13]
Monica Lewinsky
That's gonna be really, that'll be really rich territory for you to draw on for this.
- [66:18]
John Chu
And I just have so much empathy for those young people and the people around them who don't know what's happening and are trying to also figure it out. And some people aren't capable of or aren't prepared for what's happening when the public decides you're the one.
- [66:34]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I can tell you that is true, whether it's positive or negative.
- [66:39]
John Chu
And I think it's really important that you're doing this podcast too. Because now it's not some special people that do it. Like you make one video that goes viral, you are the next target.
- [66:51]
Monica Lewinsky
Sure. You could lose your admission to a College. Right?
- [66:53]
John Chu
100%. There's millions of people who are gonna be going through this. This is not just for people who wanna be famous. This is for anybody who's posting anything or doing anything. You're on camera, you don't even know you're not posting. Someone films you doing something, something at the gym. You trip on a thing, you are now famous and you're gonna have to deal with this.
- [67:10]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay, so with the Britney biopic, all of us producers, we've been hearing these rumors about Millie Bobby Brown. Can you say anything?
- [67:22]
John Chu
I can say that there has been zero casting talk.
- [67:25]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [67:26]
John Chu
Cause we don't have a script yet. Like I can't talk about it. I don't even do casting until at least I know what we're trying to achieve. I don't know the age of Britney that we're trying to do yet. I don't know any of the. So I love Millie Bobby Brown. I think she's very talented. We've had many people reach out. I've met a lot of people along the way.
- [67:45]
Monica Lewinsky
I wanted to audition.
- [67:46]
John Chu
That's what I was hoping. So we'll talk later. We're gonna start a whole nother rumor. But, no, we haven't actually talked about.
- [67:52]
Monica Lewinsky
Brittany with a beret. This has been amazing. I'm gonna ask you our last question that I ask everybody. If I can find the paper. So what is something that you're wanting to reclaim right now? And the answer could be anything. A part of your identity, an emotion, a place, a thing.
- [68:09]
John Chu
Listen, I'm always trying to reclaim time because even things I love claim more and more time. And yet all I want to do is give my time to my children and my wife and I. I know I need to be doing those things so they can. So my kids can see, like, wow, you can build a world by just imagining it. And I want them to see working hard is a beautiful thing and that it's not. When I leave them, I don't. They're like, don't go. And I say to them, I say, I love where I'm going, and I want you to find wherever you're gonna head. Like, love what you're doing because it will take away time from sometimes your children, people that you really, really love. So I'm just. I want to find that balance. I don't know if I found it exactly yet, but every day I see those kids and they're growing every day it's like, how do I do what I can do but also claim as much time with them before they don't want to claim time with me anymore.
- [69:08]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, yeah. No, that's a. I often. The last few months have been so busy, and I find myself saying all the time. I need a day in between the days, like, Tuesday and a half and Wednesday and a half and all those things. And so. Well, I guess a thank you to your wife and children for sacrificing that time, because the rest of the world, we all get to benefit from that. And I thank you so much for this time today, John. This was so wonderful to get to connect in person. And thank you for coming here today.
- [69:42]
John Chu
Thank you.
- [69:42]
Monica Lewinsky
This was great.
- [69:43]
John Chu
Appreciate it.
- [69:43]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Oh, so, so good. Thank you.
- [69:45]
John Chu
Thank you. Thank you.
- [69:48]
Monica Lewinsky
Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky Production services by WTF Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez, Wren and Emily Feldbrake and executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty and Marshall Louie.