Josh Radnor

Summary

Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky: Episode Featuring Josh Radnor

Podcast Information:

• Title: Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky
• Host: Wondery
• Description: Monica Lewinsky engages in honest, wide-ranging interviews exploring the journey of reclaiming one's identity and voice after public scrutiny. Each episode delves into personal and often messy ways individuals find their way back to themselves, drawing from Monica's unique experiences and encouraging unexpected, self-aware conversations.

Episode Details:

• Guest: Josh Radnor
• Release Date: June 24, 2025

---

1. Introduction to Josh Radnor's Journey

Monica Lewinsky introduces Josh Radnor, renowned for his role as Ted Mosby on the iconic TV show How I Met Your Mother. Beyond acting, Josh is a prolific writer, director, and musician. The conversation centers on Josh's path to defining his creative identity outside the shadows of his beloved character.

Notable Quote:

Monica Lewinsky [00:00]: "I wanted to talk to Josh because he's kind of been on his own reclaiming path, defining himself and his creative voice outside of the character he played for nine years."

2. Navigating Life Post-How I Met Your Mother

Josh shares his initial struggles after How I Met Your Mother concluded, feeling confined by public perception and the desire to be seen as his authentic self rather than just Ted Mosby.

Notable Quote:

Josh Radnor [39:20]: "I felt like I was robbed of an essential human — to tell you who I am, to reveal who I am for you to get to know me in a real context with words that were my own."

3. The Intersection of Acting and Personal Identity

The discussion delves into how acting influenced Josh’s self-awareness. Training to be an actor fostered a deeper understanding of himself, allowing him to bring more of his true self into his performances. This blend of personal and professional growth helped him navigate the complexities of fame.

Notable Quote:

Josh Radnor [35:59]: "When you train to be an actor, it is on some level about self-knowledge to be a good actor."

4. Exploring Attachment Styles and the Enneagram

Monica and Josh delve into psychological frameworks like attachment styles and the Enneagram, discussing how these models help individuals understand their behaviors and relationships. Josh identifies as a Type Three with a Four wing, highlighting his journey to reconcile his achievements with self-worth.

Notable Quote:

Josh Radnor [31:00]: "The wound of the three is we don't feel love for who we are. We feel love for what we do."

5. The Struggle with Public Image and Self-Perception

Josh recounts his challenges with being perpetually associated with Ted Mosby, leading to an internal conflict between his public persona and his private self. This struggle prompted him to seek authenticity through creative endeavors like writing and music.

Notable Quote:

Josh Radnor [40:20]: "People come with ideas about you, and I have to remind myself that they are not just seeing the character."

6. Spirituality and Self-Discovery through Psychedelic Experiences

Josh discusses his exploration of spirituality and self-discovery, including participation in ayahuasca ceremonies. These experiences provided him with insights into his true self, helping him balance his public career with personal fulfillment.

Notable Quote:

Josh Radnor [41:57]: "I found this community that really saw me for who I was. I didn't feel special, but not special because I was on TV."

7. Redefining Success and Embracing Vulnerability

The conversation shifts to redefining success on personal terms. Josh emphasizes the importance of authenticity over societal expectations, highlighting his focus on meaningful connections and creative expression rather than conventional measures of success.

Notable Quote:

Josh Radnor [68:05]: "I would like to reclaim my own ability to define success for myself... I'm on this tour right now as a musician, and the people who come to the shows... tell me how much my career means to them."

8. Integration and Reclaiming Authenticity

Monica and Josh explore the concept of integration, where individuals accept and incorporate all facets of their identities, including past roles and personal experiences. This holistic acceptance fosters genuine self-expression and resilience.

Notable Quote:

Josh Radnor [61:08]: "It's like, you have to reclaim, you know... You're a part, but it's not the whole."

9. The Role of Community and Relationships in Reclamation

Josh highlights the significance of supportive relationships in his journey. His marriage to Jordana has been instrumental in helping him navigate his public and private lives, providing a safe space for vulnerability and growth.

Notable Quote:

Josh Radnor [57:36]: "My wife had never seen the show, and now she's filling herself in on this big chapter of my life. She was so alert to my sensitivities around this stuff."

10. Conclusion and Final Reflections

In closing, Josh reflects on the continuous process of reclaiming one's identity, emphasizing the importance of self-love, acceptance, and defining personal success. He advocates for a compassionate understanding of oneself and others, moving beyond public perceptions to embrace true authenticity.

Notable Quote:

Josh Radnor [69:15]: "I'm trying to say, I hear you, buddy. But we're just gonna go out and perform tonight, and we're gonna have a good time, and we're gonna go home."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Identity Beyond Roles: Josh Radnor's journey underscores the challenge and importance of defining oneself beyond a single, public role.
• Psychological Frameworks: Understanding attachment styles and the Enneagram can aid in personal growth and relationship management.
• Spiritual Exploration: Engaging in spiritual practices and self-inquiry can provide deeper self-awareness and healing.
• Redefining Success: Personal definitions of success, rooted in authenticity and meaningful connections, lead to greater fulfillment.
• Integration of Experiences: Embracing and integrating all aspects of one's identity fosters resilience and genuine self-expression.
• Supportive Relationships: Strong, empathetic relationships are crucial for navigating public scrutiny and personal growth.

---

Closing Thoughts: This episode of Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky offers a profound exploration of personal identity, the impact of public perception, and the journey toward authentic self-expression. Josh Radnor's candid reflections provide valuable insights for anyone seeking to reclaim their true self amidst external definitions and expectations.

Transcript

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Hi. On today's episode, I spoke with actor and musician Josh Radner Journey. You might know Josh from his role as Ted Mosby on the cult classic TV show How I Met yout Mother. But Josh also has this whole other creative life, writing deep thoughts on his substack, directing films and touring with his new music. I wanted to talk to Josh because he's kind of been on his own reclaiming path, defining himself and his creative voice outside of the character he played for nine years. And the insights just flow from him. Anyway, I hope you find something in our chat to connect to. And thanks so much for joining us on reclaiming.

[Josh Radner]

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[Monica Lewinsky]

But.

[Josh Radner]

But what if, hypothetically speaking, I got a bird. No, a horse? Well, I've got good news for my hypothetical self. CareCredit is accepted at more than 270,000 locations and works for, wait for it all animals. And the even better part is it also works for me. I can use it for SP trips, dental treatments and more. CareCredit offers flexible financing for all my hypothetical animals and Hypothetical me. Visit carecredit.com to apply and find a location near you, subject to credit approval.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Hi Josh. Welcome to Reclaiming. Thank you so much for being here, especially since I know you have a show tonight, right?

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. So I wish this were live, then we could be plugging your show, but I'm sure you'll play again in la.

[Josh Radner]

I will. And I love playing here. I lived here for so many years and I still, My heart's still partly here. Yeah, you know, I'm always a great. I don't know if you're like this, but living in New York, like there's still like this relic of like LA that like east coast snobbery about la. I'm a great defender of Los Angeles. I really like it here and I think, like, it's a great place to live when you find your. Your groove and your tribe and your neighborhood.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So, yeah, I, I mean, maybe I haven't found that then yet, but I would because I was born and raised. Well, I was born in San Francisco, but I was raised here.

[Josh Radner]

I think it's different to be someone who migrated here versus someone who was born here. It's hard to See the town you are from.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

You know what I'm saying?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Especially I think if you've gone to high school. There's just so many. I mean, if you had high school like me, you just. There's so many ghosts, you know, from. And so. But I do know all the shortcuts, which makes me like the Californians. Is a real thing.

[Josh Radner]

Yes. Yes. My wife is. She's a native New Yorker and she's not. She's. She's learning how to be a driver.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh.

[Josh Radner]

She was one of the. You know what I mean?

[Monica Lewinsky]

I can teach her road rage.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I'm really good at road rage.

[Josh Radner]

I grew up in Ohio and then I lived in Los Angeles for 20 years. And I'm quite a good driver and I'm quite a good parallel parker. And she looks at it. She's just like a superpower to her. Like you can't believe.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

How. How good a driver I am. And I feel. I feel really great about.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Exactly.

[Josh Radner]

It's like a skill. You don't think you're going to have a crown on, like, on a regular basis. But with her, I do. That's.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, you guys are good match. But it's. No, I continue almost on a daily basis. I continue to not understand why people get so angry if I want to go faster than they're going.

[Josh Radner]

Like, why.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Why won't you just let me pass? Why? Why if I'm trying to speed up and go that. You're making it difficult. Like, it's not personal. It's not personal that I have somewhere I need to be and I'm late.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. But they have their own road rage because they drive different. I guess it's just all about sharing the earth.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

Together.

[Monica Lewinsky]

We cannot do that very well.

[Josh Radner]

We don't do it very well.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And. And I already broke it. I told myself I wasn't going to swear because. Right. You have. You don't swear anymore.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, no. I swear again.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, you do. Thank God.

[Josh Radner]

It was like going off coffee.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Okay. You know, like, I was really committed to going off coffee. And I'm fully on coffee now.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

I will say this about swearing. I try to make it count.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

Like, I try. I try to be like. This sentence will be much improved with this word in it. I try not to just be like someone who's always swearing. I try to be pretty intentional about it. But no, I'm totally fine with swearing. Whatever you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I think for me in my head. Well, it's better if I'm saying A swear word than another, like. Because I find myself saying, like, again, a lot, which is kind of problematic. But I was thinking and preparing to talk to you about. I always like to think, where did I meet someone? And I think we met at Jared Cohen's birthday party.

[Josh Radner]

That's right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

That's right.

[Josh Radner]

Years ago.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Years ago. Pre pandemic years ago. Brilliant. Jared Cohen, who, like, you know, worked for two State Department. Heads of state departments before he was. His CV puts everyone's show diapers still at the. You know. And then we were at that conference together, so. And we were bunking with a bunch of people in the same house, and I. Did you have guitar with you?

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, of course. So it was like we. We got real live music in the house, which was nice. But when I was thinking about Jared's birthday, I was remembering how on the taxi ride home, I was like, oh, I have this thing where I think my mom. We call her Jupedia in my family. Cause she sends these emails of, you're never gonna guess who's Jewish. I was like, oh, I think there was a Josh Radner Jupedia email. I went searching for it and I found an email from her. And I shared part of it with you, except not the last line. And so I was gonna read the whole thing because then you'll understand. Right. Oh, great.

[Josh Radner]

When did you get this? Relative to how. When we met.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I have the date here. June 4th, 2013.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So subject line.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Josh Radner. Have you ever heard of him? I happened to see a small film he did called Liberal Arts. He wrote and directed and starred in it. It was amazingly good. Anyway, I was curious, and in his bio, it says his sister's married name is Valensky. I couldn't. Let me know if you know anything about him. So that's what I had shared. I think I sent that to you. I don't know if that rings a bell or not.

[Josh Radner]

I think so, because I remember the mom's name.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, no, no, no. Valencia's my mom's name.

[Josh Radner]

No, I remember this. I remember this.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So. But the thing. Because I had just met you, I was like, there's zero chance I'm gonna share this last line. But now that we know each other, she said, also, if you wanna marry him, it's okay.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, great.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, I figured now that you're married, like, it's an okay.

[Josh Radner]

I'm so glad I got your mother' and how strange that she went from a Volinsky to a Lewinsky, which is like a Very lateral move.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. That's a very bad luck last name change.

[Josh Radner]

So I think it's just like it's no better or worse.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right, that's true. Yeah, exactly. So it was a funny.

[Josh Radner]

Well, I'm so glad she saw the movie and I'm so glad she's monitoring who's out there.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Exactly. No, no. But the thing that I also thought was funny was clearly she is not in the demo for How I Met yout Mother.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So. Because she wouldn't have even people see the film.

[Josh Radner]

I'm like, great. Like, my wife had never seen How I Met your Mother, which I think is why we're married.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, exactly. Sometimes I. Maybe I should go much younger because then. No, but.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

No, no, no, no.

[Josh Radner]

I. I have to say, I was thinking about when we met and I. I remember being very struck. I'm going to pay you a compliment. I remember being very struck by, you know, there were. There were some bold face names at that party. And I remember feeling like you were very present with me. I'd never felt like you were looking over my shoulder for a better conversation. And I really. I appreciate that. Like, I remember when I meet people who feel like they're there.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yes.

[Josh Radner]

You know, and so I felt that very strongly about you. And I know we don't see each other that much, but I'm always delighted to receive a text or just.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I know. And. Oh, and I love your newsletter. So. I mean, it's always even just from the title or substack. Now, is it called Substack?

[Josh Radner]

It's just the newsletter on substack music.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I haven't done the whole. The substack thing scares me.

[Josh Radner]

I'm conflicted about it. But. Yes. That's a whole other conversation.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. So. But always super thoughtful and interesting to read and which. Which I love. I know your Jewish background. Like, you went to. You said you grew up in Ohio and you went to an Orthodox school growing up.

[Josh Radner]

Right?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Jewish day school from kindergarten to eighth grade.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. And then I went to a public high school.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. And so I was reading somewhere that you had talked about yeshiva and how that sort of impacted your. The way you like to storytell is that.

[Josh Radner]

I think so. I mean, I don't know if I would call it a yeshiva, but it was certainly like half day English, half day.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

Hebrew.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Huh.

[Josh Radner]

I wear a yarmulke from kindergarten.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

Eighth grade.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wow.

[Josh Radner]

Like dining in the morning, like. Yeah, it was okay.

[Monica Lewinsky]

That's very Orthodox.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, very much. And my family no bacon. No. My family is not Orthodox. I mean, we were like. My dad was the president of our conservative.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

They just. A lot of their friends who were Jewish sent their kids to this school. It was like the only kind of hardcore Jewish education in town. You know, it was a little bit like going to Catholic school if you're not super Catholic.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

You know, but you go and you kind of get the.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Except you don't have to wear all this stuff. Right. If you go to Catholic school. Right?

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, we had to wear some stuff. Yeah. But, you know, you. You get off. You get on the bus, you take it off immediately. Okay. You rejoin the world. I think I. You know, it. It stemmed from something that I heard Tony Kushner say years ago when he was asked why so many Jews are attracted to the theater. And he said, I think baked into the kind of Jewish DNA is this notion of, like, reading a text, like reading Talmud or Torah and digging underneath the words to figure out what is underneath the text, not just the surface of the text. And he said, that's what plays are. That's what you do in a rehearsal room of a play. You're digging underneath the text, you're trying to find. You're excavating the subtext. You're trying to look at it from all sorts of different angles. So I did grow up with that kind of academic mindset, but I also think that I grew up with, like, stories. Like, I grew up with, like, Torah stories, and I loved, you know, the stories in the Torah. Like, I really. I continue to. Like, I find Moses and David. Like, I just find the characters to be unbelievable. The stories are so strange.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

So I think that I like being from a people who, like, venerate and love and kiss a book. Like, I think there's something. There's a reason. I think Jewish people have, like, lots of books on bookshelves. Like, it's a. It's a. It's a. You know, the people of the book. Like, it's a religion centered on a book.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Interesting.

[Josh Radner]

You know?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Although I guess I'm trying to think, do most religions have some sort of a.

[Josh Radner]

A text.

[Monica Lewinsky]

A text that is.

[Josh Radner]

I think so, but I think we probably started it. Like, I don't know if I'm going to get in trouble for. Say, we probably were the first to were, like, parade around a book and kiss it and be like. And if you drop it, you gotta fast.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

You know what I mean? If you drop it. We took it very seriously, this book, the Book?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. I mean, I am Jewish. Very culturally Jewish, not super religious, but went to Hebrew school, but did not.

[Josh Radner]

Were you bat mitzvahed?

[Monica Lewinsky]

No, because I was more interested in the party.

[Josh Radner]

Sure.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And so we were conservative. And so I think that, you know, that didn't go over so well in my house.

[Josh Radner]

So you mean you were conservative denominationally.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Correct.

[Josh Radner]

This is something people should understand. When we say conservative, it doesn't mean, like, reactionary, right wing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. It means 100 not.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, it's. It's just there's orthodox, conservative, and reform, which are kind of like these different levels of observance.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And all my friends went to the reform temple, and I was like, oh, why do we have to go to the conservative one? And blah, blah, blah. Right.

[Josh Radner]

But so did you have a party?

[Monica Lewinsky]

So I had a party, but I did not get a bat Mitzvah. And then my younger brother clearly learned.

[Josh Radner]

That'S why all the people show up for his birthday party. They're still applauding his haptora.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Exactly. But also he learned where it was like. Oh, yeah. When he got asked the question of why he wanted it, he knew to say, oh, because it's. It's important in my. In my life, or be about becoming a man or some version of it.

[Josh Radner]

Sounds like me relative to my older sister. Like, I watched my older sister make certain missteps and mistakes as she went, and I just course corrected.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

I was just like, she stepped in it. I'm not gonna do it that way.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yes, exactly, Mike. Definitely no global scandal either, so. Which is good.

[Josh Radner]

Well, the older child is generally your story, notwithstanding the sacrificial lamb in the family, you know, so.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, right. I know. It's great. And so with the storytelling in the theater, you knew, like, pretty early on that you wanted to go into theater because you majored in drama or that was just.

[Josh Radner]

I. It was. I start. I did my first, like, high school musical at 15, and then at 16 was where I would say I kind of caught the cliched bug, where I was like, this is all I want to do. And it was funny because I went to this kind of children's theater that would have musicals with, like, 16 to 21 year olds in the summer.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

And it was a very. You know, everyone from central Ohio was trying to get in this company, and it was very. And I got in and did it for three years. And I was someone who had just started acting, and all these kids had been acting since they were kids. And I remember it was like, oh, you Came to this late when you were 15, right. You know, we've been doing this for a long time and now I look back and now that I'm a musician also and I have some feeling like, oh, I wish I'd started playing guitar at 14 or 15, but that's when I started acting. So I've, I, I didn't have the band in my parents garage but I definitely like have been doing this as long as like, you know, a professional musician would have or whatever. So I don't know, it just lit me up and I, and I felt like this is really what I want to do, but I didn't, I really had to piece together for myself. Like I didn't have relatives in the business. I was, I felt so far from New York, so far from la. So I really had to figure out how to do it, you know.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, but that's interesting. I mean I never thought about it this way, but when you're talking about the acting and, and then as a musician and as a writer, you were interested in public storytelling from an early age.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, that's kind of how I unite everything I do now. I'm like, I'm, I'm telling stories or I'm communicating something and I, and I try to let the content dictate the form. I mean sometimes there's an idea and I think this is a four minute song. Like I'm not gonna get a 90 minute movie out of this. This is a four minute idea and it can be really rich and really fully explored. And then there's other ideas that I think no, no, that needs a movie or other ideas. You say that needs a series like that should be multi year kind of exploration or that has enough juice to go longer.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Have you ever gone down one path and then realized no, no, actually it should be the other thing.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean I've certainly. Series to movie is like that you can get. Definitely.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I have a few of those.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Yeah. There are certain themes that kick around. Like one of the, one of the things with my wife because I definitely ran more avoidant like as an attachment style and anxious attachers when we get along. But I could feel she's a clinical psychologist and she just like, she's just like a master at seeing people's things and kind of like knowing how to put people at ease. And she was, she was very much like you can you, you're here as a choice like you can leave, you can leave anytime you want. And for an avoidant this was like music to my ears. I was like, oh, I don't want to leave now that I'm allowed to leave. You know, I wrote a song. I. I had this idea of she might have said this or I might have said this. It was just the phrase, you have the right to change your mind about me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wow.

[Josh Radner]

And I wrote a song called you have. I wrote a couple go. I had a couple goes at it. I like where it is now. It's not on my new record. But just that notion of you have the right to change your mind about me. Felt like that's a song.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

You know, but you could also spin something larger out of that. But I liked it as an idea.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It sounds good as a movie title.

[Josh Radner]

You have the right to change your mind about me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. It's a little long.

[Josh Radner]

A little long, but it sounds like a Nicole Hollis center movie or something.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Exactly. I'm so glad you said the last name and not me. I'm really bad with some of those.

[Josh Radner]

I think I pronounced it correctly.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, I'm really bad with some of those things. But that's. It is interesting. I have a friend who was an avoidant, and when he finally called his, we all considered her his girlfriend, but they had been together for, like, four years, and he finally sort of said, yeah, she's my girlfriend. We had a celebration.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But eventually the woman he married had. Had. Had said to him a version of that.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And I think that helped.

[Josh Radner]

So they're both anxious and avoidant. Are both hard. Yeah, like, they're both hard in totally different ways, but they're all the way. Jordana, my wife, describes it very simply, which I thought was great. Said, when intimacy comes into your life, do you fear abandonment or do you feel engulfment? Do you fear engulfment? You know, and I was mostly fearing engulfment. And most of the women I dated felt. Feared abandonment.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

It's just like. Yeah, they find each other.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, I think. I think, too. I. I mean, I'm so curious. I'm so curious to see these kind of younger generations. What happens there? Do these attachment styles still sort of foster in the same way? Because I think that as women have over generations, like, you know, we're Gen X. And so I think most Gen X women were kind of raised that they would probably have a career, but it wasn't a. Wasn't a for sure thing.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And. But I think these younger generations, it's just assumed, like. Right. It's assumed it's gonna be a 2 inc household.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And so I wonder, and if in how people are being shaped, even though the attachment stuff starts when you're little. Right. With your primary caretakers. I just wonder if over time those things will impact that or will just always be up forever.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, I don't know. Well, I wonder. I always think about like we, we think we're like these unique flowers.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

But we're like, we're products of our generation, of our time, of our geography, of our parents, you know, of, of if we were up with, with resources or not. Like we, we come by our problems pretty honestly, you know, but. Yeah, I wonder, I wonder if those are still going to hold.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

My friend Amy told me, she said, do you know that kids are not using the bases to describe what's happening with them sexually? And we were like, what? There's no first, second, third base anymore? Like, how do you describe anything?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh my God.

[Josh Radner]

Without that system.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I remember, I, like, I love that this is the memory that comes up. But actually in 98, with all this stuff going on and trying to explain to my lawyers, like, well, I signed this affidavit because, you know, we didn't go to home base, like, you know, so.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And, and that whole thing. So that would. Yeah, yeah. No, all those things, it's a.

[Josh Radner]

Well, even though, even though, like some of these things might be collapsing or reshaping, they're still, you know, my friend is single and he's not a tall person.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

He's not a tall man.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

And when women find that out, some of them will not go out with him.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

You know, like, it's interesting, tricky, and, or, you know, even though they're two income households, like some women are uncomfortable with a man earning less than them, like there's still these kind of things in our bloodstream.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But I, but do you feel that with, with the much younger generation.

[Josh Radner]

That's what I'm, that's what I'm not sure about.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I feel like it's a different. I feel like it's a different thing because. But I don't know.

[Josh Radner]

We're not gonna figure this out in the next hour, I don't think.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay, so you, right, you went to college, majored in drama, and then you went to Tisch, right? Yeah, I went to NYU Master's. Right?

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah. I got my MFA from the grad acting program at Tisch.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Uh huh. And then pretty soon after you were on Broadway.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, not that long after.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I think in the acting world, Like a couple years to be on Broadway.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. I think I got out of school. I was, I think I turned 25 this summer after I got out of school. And I think I did the graduate when I was 27. So. Relatively quick. Yeah, yeah, 2002, I got out in 99. So, yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I mean, seems quick to me. I don't know, for the people I know who.

[Josh Radner]

Well, it's, it's hard to get some sense of scale and time because it, it didn't necessarily feel quick because I felt every minute of those three years or two years.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right, right, right, right.

[Josh Radner]

But at the same time, I looked at my cohort, you know, the people who got out of school, and some of them, you know, landed really interesting places real quick, and other ones, it took them a really long time to get a career going. So I was pretty fortunate, I think.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. And did you, were you just interested to be a stage actor or were you kind of like, I'll do anything.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Or interested in.

[Josh Radner]

I had when I was at nyu. This is again a memory thing. Like I try to remember, like, was I someone who just wanted to be like a modest stage actor who did a Law and Order every once in a while and lived in New York City? Or, or was I more ambitious than I was letting on? Or that there was something about being from Ohio and maybe even being like growing up in like the 90s, like, yeah, remember like Gen X, we were, it was so forbidden to voice ambition.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Like you were just supposed to be like, I don't know, all the political parties are the same. Who cares? You know, like, did you read Chuck Klosterman's book the 90s?

[Monica Lewinsky]

I did not.

[Josh Radner]

It's a great book. It's worth reading.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I mean, I'm usually pretty allergic to those kinds of things.

[Josh Radner]

This book is really fun. I mean, you'll think about Ross Perot more than you have in a long time. Yeah, but, but he has some great insights and one of them is that the 90s were the last decade where being political felt optional.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Josh Radner]

You know, like, like not voting in the 90s was kind of like, it wasn't a character defect, it was kind of like, okay, that's just your choice.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Uh huh.

[Josh Radner]

And now it would be like, if I see someone didn't vote, I'm kind of outraged.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

But anyway, I, I've read some things I wrote like in my third year at nyu and like, I did want to have a big career. I think I, I sensed that if I wanted to have the theater career that I wanted to have. I needed to actually have a film and TV career because the people I saw doing it at a big level were either, you know, like, you have like theater stars like Audrey McDonald or something who's just like, this is where she excels. And then. And she also obviously does a lot of tv. But I just got the sense like I needed to have a well rounded career and I needed to have a career with some real visibility. But at the same time I. I was afraid, you know, now I've been on TV for so long that I kind of know what my face looks like. But I was, I was very nervous when I was younger that I, like, I felt comfortable in a theater and the camera was terrifying to me and I felt very invaded by it. And I felt like I didn't have the right proportions. Like I made all these stories up in my head. And then I just started getting. Especially in tv, I started booking things very quickly and. And I started to realize, like, oh, I actually am good for this medium and, and people want me in this. And then, you know, and then something like how I met your mother comes along and that changes. Then I was just on TV for a really long time.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

And I. And writing and directing my own movies that your mom really enjoys.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yes.

[Josh Radner]

Ex editing myself. I really had to get used to my face in more of a merciless way. And it wasn't that I thought I looked good or bad. I just had some peace with like, that's what I look like. That's why I look like from this angle. That's what I look at. This angle. This angle. This angle. And it eroded a kind of self consciousness in me that I can still rear its head. But I. I really just had to make peace with my face, you know, and then, and then once I have done that, I'm just less in my head about it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to talk a little about the how I met your mother phase because I think that obviously was a big defining point in your life, but also was something that led to a lot of these other roads that you've had since then, both creatively and spiritually.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And so the. It started out for you. I mean, obviously everybody. I have to imagine someone who books a TV show gets excited.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Or what was that like for you?

[Josh Radner]

Booking particularly How I Met yout Mother.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Or did it feel.

[Josh Radner]

I had a whole journey because my first pilot, I auditioned, I came out to LA for pilot season. I booked my first Audition for a pilot.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

We shot the pilot. They picked up the pilot, and they fired me. They replaced me. Right. So that was like a real watershed moment because I had to. You know, it feels like, oh, show business just rejected me. But it wasn't. It was one executive at the WB who rejected me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And I love that you're like. And I still have his name and face on a bullet.

[Josh Radner]

It's a her, and I won't name her name. I'll tell you afterwards if you want to hear. Yeah, but. And then the next. And then I went back to the theater and I did two plays on the east coast and kind of, like, found myself again a little bit. Then I went back to la and I think I did a Law and Order, maybe an ER or something. But I. I got on this show with Sally Field, this Supreme Court show. It's kind of like a. It was the West Wing people. Not Sorkin, but John Wells. And, yeah, they were trying to do a Supreme Court West Wing, and I was one of her law clerks.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Interesting.

[Josh Radner]

We shot six, they aired three, yanked it. Then I did a pilot with Rob Reiner for NBC. Didn't get picked up. So I had been through the. I've gotten a pilot energy. So then when I got How I Made youe Mother, I had a quiet good feeling about it. And I had just done a play with Neil Patrick Harris, weirdly, like, months before he got cast alongside me. So that felt strange and aligned. And I was a fan of Allie Hannigan and Jason Segel, and I met Kobe at my audition. But it felt like, oh, this feels nice and good, but you don't really pop the champagne until you get picked up.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

And then you only get picked up for 13. And then you have to see if you were getting the back nine, which is like the full order. And your ratings have to be good enough. So the whole time, it's like a nail biter. And it wasn't until How I Met yout Mother went on Netflix, like, fourth season, okay. That our ratings spiked. We were just like, we're talking about this on the podcast I'm doing on how we made your mother. But, like, we were just like this little indie band, okay, that. That the network was paying. They were paying enough attention to kind of like, okay, but they weren't bothering us. They weren't, like, telling us how to do the show. So they got to develop this very interesting, strange, fun voice. Carter and Craig, the creators. And then by the time the show kind of caught on, we were already in our groove. And we knew what the show was, so there was a kind of mercy in not being a huge hit right out of the gate.

[Monica Lewinsky]

That's really interesting. Really, really interesting. I mean, it's a little. I think we. We talk now about the. The Yellowstone phenomenon. But that's. I mean, that in. In the way. Right. I think that show didn't totally catch on until the fourth season.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right after the fourth season.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. I'm trying to. I try to remember that, like, the story's not written on, like, almost everything.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

You know, like, I'm touring this album eulogy that I made three years ago, and I think the. Especially the volume one, which is really, well, like, more produced than the second volume, which is a little more like acoustic basement tapes kind of vibe. But this first volume, I really feel like, is, if I'm allowed to say, is kind of sounds arrogant. I think it's like a classic record. Like, I think it's so wonderful. And I'm touring with these guys, Corey and Jeremiah, two of the producers, and we're, you know, doing a west coast swing right now. And we were talking about it the other night, and Jeremiah was like, it's not like an opening weekend on a movie. Like, music exists, right? Forever.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And certain. I guess Lizzo had, like, her big hits were, like, kind of kicking around for a couple years, and Chapel Rowan songs, like, had been around before they caught fire. And I'm not saying that's where I'm looking to go.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Hey.

[Josh Radner]

But. But I feel like, oh, I'm. I'm getting new fans of the record. Every show I play, more people are learning about it. It's like, its story is not over. Yeah, that's.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I'm trying to have that attitude with the podcast, too.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

That sense of. Because I think there, for me, there was a bit of a. I have to get an A plus plus kind of out of the gate. And so just trying to.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, it's a real tricky thing. Like, America, like, wants you to, like, be, like, crushed.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Period. America.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, America.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Tricky thing. America, period.

[Josh Radner]

Well, I stand by that. But it's like, it's. It's tricky from, you know, showbiz or media. There's always this thing of, like, you gotta come out of the gate just crushing. And there's no sense of, like, apprenticeship, getting your feet under you, finding your voice. I think, like, you know, the things that really, I think have staying power are things where the kinks were worked out and they were given space to, you know, very few things Emerge fully formed, you know, and even watching. I'm now watching the early episodes of How I Met yout Mother. And, like, there was definitely in the DNA was all the specialness about the show first season. But, like, I don't think it was as comedic brilliant as we found as we went. You know what I mean? Like, you. Anytime you look at your. You know, you might look at the early episodes of the podcast in two years and be like, I really found. Yeah, but you have to. I. I find I. I have to give myself the grace to stumble a little bit and find the thing, you know?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Is that hard for you?

[Josh Radner]

It's hard for me because I'm a. I'm a recovering perfectionist, you know?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And I think. I don't know. Are you an Enneagram person?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, I know my Enneagram, sort of, but I am newer to it, although I was initially introduced to it a long time ago, and I just didn't dive into the book. I'm a two.

[Josh Radner]

You're a two?

[Monica Lewinsky]

I'm a two.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, interesting. But do you have a three wing? Maybe.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So I don't probably. I don't know. I can't quite figure out if I'm a one wing or a three wing.

[Josh Radner]

Okay.

[Monica Lewinsky]

How about you? What is your.

[Josh Radner]

I'm a. A three with a four wing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

Okay. So I think. So two is the helper.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right?

[Josh Radner]

Right. So both my sisters and my mother are twos.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, there's. Okay. But there's an interesting thing with women twos that you're supposed to check and make sure that your second and third categories are not super close because women, so many women have been kind of raised in the helper mode.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But I also. I find those things hard, too, because I. I'm. I. I'm always thinking about something. Well, do you mean it? Do you mean the question this way or do you mean the question that way?

[Josh Radner]

Totally.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Because if you mean it this way, then my answer is this. And if you mean it that way, then my answer. So then I. I always.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, they can be a little reductive and unnuanced. But there is something. Out of all the many personality tests, I find it to be the best.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

And I think it's kind of the best because this is what Richard Rohr says. Do you know Richard Rohr? He's a Franciscan.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I don't priest.

[Josh Radner]

He's a very brilliant writer. But he said he's written a lot about the Enneagram. But he said when you read the descriptions of the Enneagram, it's the one that humiliates you the most, is probably what you are. Oh. It's the one that kind of. You kind of feel indicted by it. And I think some personality tests are, like, pretty flattering to the ego. And this is, like, built into it is a little ego deflation.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

So. But one of the things about threes, which is this achievement oriented type that I am, and then I have this individualist kind of wing that I feel like more as I'm getting older, I have more of. But with this, they say each one has a wound. And the wound of the three is we don't feel love for who we are. We feel love for what we do. So there's a notion of if I'm not doing excellently, if I'm not producing something of value, I won't be worthy of love. Like, it's a very, like, primal kind of feeling. So I've had to battle this notion of, you know, if I'm not the biggest whatever or if my. My show isn't wonderful and if I don't nail every moment that I'm somehow less lovable.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. Yeah. Then I'm definitely a Wing 3.

[Josh Radner]

But what's interesting, I started my. This tour in Seattle last week, and I had a really bad sinus infection that turned into a respiratory infection.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, no.

[Josh Radner]

My high notes were gone. Like, I just couldn't.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And I. I had. I had no choice but to enlist the audience and say, this is what's going on, you know, and this is what the show is going to be like. You're. I'm lowering everything a half step I'm going to do, but it's live. We're in a room together. I'm going to do the best I can. I could have canceled. I didn't. And it kind of like, brought everyone a little closer around the campfire of the night.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And I felt like I have to remind myself always that. That people are not really showing up to see perfection. Especially for me. I'm not like Pavarotti. You know what I mean? Like, there are people that you're like, no, I want to see.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right, Right, Adele, you have to.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah. But they're actually showing up for me is to see, like, vulnerability. I. You know, I started a decade ago. Like, I'm not. I haven't been doing it that long, so I think there's a kind of boldness to what I'm doing and a kind of, like, weird curveball in my life. Like, why like, why is he writing songs now? This is such a strange. He didn't have to do this. So I think people are just showing up to have an experience. And when you have an experience, it's almost like going to coffee with a good friend and then like grading them after. Like, you would never do that. You'd be like, no, I just want to be around this person.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

I'm not interested. I'm not alert to their mistakes. They, they jumble a word. I'm going to love them less. Like, no, it's lovable.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Were you always seeking in kind of looking like your interest in Enneagram? You're knowing your attachment style? I mean, have you always been self inquisitive that way? Or is that something that came.

[Josh Radner]

I think so. I think that what happened was when I stepped out on stage and fell in love with the theater, I feel like some light went on in my consciousness. Like my memories are a lot clearer post. I mean, obviously because they're closer. But. But post getting on stage, my life somehow became more vivid and I became, I think because when you train to be an actor, it is on some level about self knowledge to be a good actor. Even though you're not ostensibly playing yourself, you're bringing yourself to the thing, or at least a big part of yourself to the thing. And the person that knows themselves better and can bring more of themselves to it. Those are the performances that I think are really light you up as an audience member. And I used to have this teacher at nyu, Ron Van Lew, who said, he said it right, right away when we got there. He said you need to expand your definition of yourself. You know, you think you're. Oh, I'm a guy who grew up in Columbus, Ohio, in this suburb, and I am that. You know, we have a small idea, but if you, if you think like, I don't know, I don't know why this is occurring to me but like, like I'm a beloved child of God. Like, like some big idea.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right, right.

[Josh Radner]

That or I'm. I'm filled with anger, you know, I'm filled with grief or things that, like, at least in my family, like we didn't say that around the dinner table.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

You know, but those are true. Like, those are all true. Every, all three of those things are true. I'm also filled with joy. I'm filled with like, you know, lightheartedness and laughter. Like I felt this need because I wanted to do this thing to like dimensionalize myself, if that's a word, or like be Able to see myself from a bunch of different angles. Some of that self consciousness is, is quite like a kind of hell, you know, when you, I think when you're, when you're looking at yourself too much like my brother in law, Gideon Jacobs is his name and he's a fantastic writer, brilliant guy. He writes for the. Well, he writes for all the publications and he, he did this one man show where he played like this blind preacher. You know, we saw it like last week. And his central idea as this preacher was like this notion that we're not paying attention to the second commandment, which is like, don't make any graven images. And it's not just graven images of God. It's like, it's like actual images. And he talks about the allegory of the Garden of Eden, which. I'm not a biblical literalist, but I like looking at things allegorically. And one of the things he says is like, there's this app. Everyone, you know, Adam and Eve are in unity with the, the plants and the animals and the fruit and the divinity. It was all one. There was no separation. But for some reason they, they ate this apple and it caused the psychic wound where they were suddenly aware they were naked. They were watching themselves, they could see themselves. So the wound of like the, the primordial wound is self image, right? Like it's this idea, you know, it's like us going like, oh my God, that's what. Oh my God. Like I'm. Yeah, yeah, you know, that is. And, and also this app, you know, there's. We have these phones with apple bites in them, you know, and we're just looking at image, image, image, image, image, image. And we're all getting more unhappy the more we get flooded with these images.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I was thinking when you were saying about the central idea, I was like, oh, well, social media, yeah, it's nothing.

[Josh Radner]

But image, self perception. How am I being perceived, how I'm perceiving other people. So I think when I got on How I Met yout Mother, I did go through a crisis and I didn't feel like anyone else on the show was having the particular crisis I was having. And it's just because they'd either been doing it longer or they just didn't have my particular psychological makeup. But I found the erosion of anonymity to be very destabilizing. I found also because I hadn't had a big thing before that, that people's readiness and hunger to just have me be the guy and not an actor playing A guy was much stronger. I felt right. And I just went on a spiritual. Like, I felt like more Hollywood is not gonna solve the hurt that I'm feeling. Cause I just thought, well, that's just gonna deepen my problem if I'm chasing another image or another trying to change people's perception.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, I'm gonna interrupt you, because what's interesting, really interesting to me about what you just said is that you said hurt, and so that it was like the hurt. So what hurt about people seeing you as just that character or the cause? That's interesting to me.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. You know, let me try to.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You wanted to try to unpack it.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it was this feeling that I was robbed of, like, an essential human. Right. Which was to tell you who I am, to reveal who I am for you to get to know me in a real context with words that were my own. And there was something about being thought of as another person and just the kind of. There was like, a real. Some of the fans. I don't, by the way, feel this energy now. Like. Like, enough time has passed, and I don't feel it. And in fact, in my life, I almost never feel it. It's just in the online world. Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, which is its own place. But I can so deeply relate to everything you're saying.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, and so from different experiences. But when people.

[Josh Radner]

It robs you of the chance to make a first impression.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And people come with ideas about you, you know, and also, it's like some of it, I like. Like, I like sometimes when my reputation precedes me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

In a good way.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So sometimes you want Ted Mosby, and.

[Josh Radner]

No, no, it's not Ted Mosby. It's more like people know that I am a legitimate actor. I've made my living at it for decades. I've written and directed things. I'm a creative person. Like sometimes when I'll read a book I really like and I'll often message the author on Instagram, mostly because that's where I mostly am. And they almost always write me back. And I can almost always struck. Strike up, like, a nice little friendship with a writer I admire. And those are things that I absolutely adore about having my reputation precede me a little bit.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

Because it. Because it. It lets them know, like, oh, no, I'm doing my own thing. And I really admire what you are doing. And I just wanted to tell you. And I know when people reach out to me and say my work move them, it's always Appreciated.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

You know, but I think that I, especially in those early years, I just felt, I guess it's called like the hedonic treadmill. Like that thing of like when you have good fortune, you metabolize it incredibly quickly so it doesn't give you the kind of hit of joy it might initially, but we, we just metabolize it and then you're on to the next thing. So you never allow it to give you that much satisfaction for that long.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I haven't heard that phrase.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, I think it's. I think that's what it's called.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But it's really interesting.

[Josh Radner]

But I found myself, you know, in South America doing like tons of ayahuasca ceremonies, like just trying to like touch something that felt authentic. And I found this community that for a while was really like a savior for me. And then it turned a little dark and I left. But the ayahuasca community, this was like all during how I met your mother. And I was, you know, I didn't use every summer to like go do a job or a movie. I was often like traveling and doing this like, potent, psychedelic because I was really trying to find something that felt cosmically, perennially real and not like the stock market of Hollywood.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

Like you're up, you're down, you're this, you're that. And I. And I felt this community really saw me for, for who I was. I didn't feel like I felt special, but not special because I was on tv.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right, right. You know that they saw what was special about yourself.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was really, I was really lost for a while in. Well, I don't want to say I was lost. I was trying to navigate or balance out. Okay. I have this weird day job that puts me in a lot of living rooms and on airplanes and people recognize me all the time and want pictures. And it was just this weird aspect of my life. But it wasn't my whole life. My whole life was still my family and my friends and my community and my spiritual, you know, longing and pursuit. Like my life was incredibly rich and full. It was just there was this aspect of it that drove me into a kind of self conscious hell in some ways where I, you know, and I don't know, like I. When people write you and say, you know, you should change, you should legally change your name to your character name because I will never think of you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wow.

[Josh Radner]

And then you think that, well, that's the death of me as an actor. Because if I can't play other Roles.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

You know, so it's been this really. You know, we all have our dharma and our karma, and it's just been like a fascinating. Like, we all get weird stories, you know what I mean? Like, and ours are weirder. You know, I don't want to over compare us, but, like. But there's a. There's. There's a strangeness to. I mean, the interesting thing is, like, I don't know if you're a Ram Dass person, but Ram Dass. Yeah, he would say, you know, one thing I love is he said, people always. The question I get asked the most is, should I get married? Should I marry this person? Should I not marry this person? And he would say, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You get married, you're gonna have these problems. You don't get married, you're gonna have these problems.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Problems either way. And I think the ego structure, something about it is like, if I could just turn the knobs right this way, if I could get the right living situation, the right person to be with, that's the end of problems, end of struggle, end of. And it's like, there's. It's an elite. It's folly. It's like pure illusion. But the other thing he said that I really love is like, whatever your life is, is your yoga. Like, it is tailored for you. And, you know, the other thing about very public dharmas or karmas is the circle of people that you can kind of commiserate with or talk to about it is pretty small.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. You know, well, mine was really small.

[Josh Radner]

Yours was really, really small.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But n of 1, you know, I mean, now it's different. Yeah, I think now it's different because I think public shaming has become a commodity in our society and a sport in some ways. And so I think that I've had a number of people who have gone through public things who have come to me after and said, you know, I. I didn't really understand what you were going through.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Yeah. But isn't that amazing that your trial by fire, like, the hardest thing in the world, if you survive it, like, you are of such value.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

To people. Like, I think about just the beauty of, like, the 12 step model is like, it's just other. It's like addicts that almost died who have. Who lived and have some knowledge that they then, just for free, just hand it off to people to keep them alive. There's something achingly beautiful about that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

To me, I'm thinking too about. And now this is going to be so embarrassing. This is my perimenopause brain guy who wrote Infinite Jest, David Foster Wallace. Thank you. Oh, my God. He also had the book, and I'm going to forget the title. That was where it was the different. The therapy sessions.

[Josh Radner]

Brief interviews with hideous men.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yes, thank you.

[Josh Radner]

Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And there's one. Just gonna have you around all the time. My lifeline. Josh Radner. Thank you so much. The point where I'm trying to get to is this idea that when you have gone through something horrific and you have survived, you now know something else about yourself that you are able to survive a her and horrific thing.

[Josh Radner]

Right, Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Kind of a thing. And so there's like, you know, I'm kind of, like, not sure that's definitely a, you know, pin that I want on my.

[Josh Radner]

Well, it is. It is, though, in. In a lot of ways. Like, I don't know. Do you read Nick Cave's Red Hand Files?

[Monica Lewinsky]

I do not.

[Josh Radner]

Okay. It's a free.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Another. I'm gonna. I'm like, yeah, I'll write these down.

[Josh Radner]

It's a free weekly, kind of. He just answers reader mail, but they're always. He's a, you know, a punk kind of elder statesman. Australian. And he has written so eloquently about grief and about our responsibilities to each other. And he lost two children.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh.

[Josh Radner]

You know, and he was a heroin addict. And he's now sober. And he's just. He has one of those voices that you trust because he's been to the underworld. Like, he's absolutely been there. And he's. And he got the. The gifts of the underworld. Like, he. He has, like, boundless empathy. And he's an incredibly good writer. So he's pleasant. He's wonderful to read because he just says it. So perf. But years ago, I was on this meditation retreat, and my meditation teacher had never had a sip of alcohol or a drug because the Maharishi swooped him up when he was, like, 16. But he was giving. The whole weekend was about addiction and he was saying, like, wise things. But I remember just being so uninterested in what he was saying, because I didn't think he was speaking from the force of experience. And there was a guy there who I became friendly with. With. He was in a huge. He was the guitarist in a huge rock band. And he'd been sober, like, a lot of years. And I would talk to him at the breaks, and I remember thinking, I want this guy to teach this weekend because he's the one who has tasted that darkness and lived to tell about it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

So I think like, you know, we bemoan these things happening to us, but they're actually what gives us wisdom and it gives us our mentor flag or wings or something.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, there's a great Andre Mulro quote that think it, she did not come back from hell empty handed.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, that's so good.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, I might have butchered it a little, but it's really wonderful. And that is, you know, I think that's what you're talking about.

[Josh Radner]

I was thinking about how again, the ego wants to keep us out of hell and we've created this whole idea that hell is like this permanent place and you've got to avoid it and you gotta to cozy up to some divinity to keep you from it. But like, we all have an appointment with hell. Like, hell is just a state of mind. Hell is like we all go there, we all come back.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

But I feel, you know, I would look at, I would go, why is my karma. Why, why is my road to learning about myself in the deepest way? Why did it come through like starring on a television show on cbs? Like, what a weird. What a weird way that, you know, the universe chose to teach me all these things. And even though it was hard, I look back now, you know, we always look back at the hard things as the ones where we learn the most. Of course, you know, success is like, it's not that good a teacher.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

But boy, failure, oh, my gosh, you know.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. No, it's so true.

[Josh Radner]

I wish we had a different cultural relationship to it. You know, when you, when you fail, I feel like a lot of people are like, ooh, yeah, but like, your good friends will be like, oh, what are you learning?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

You know?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, well, and also, I think if you, you look behind the curtain of, of any story of a really successful person who's permeated the culture with what they've done, you know, there are so many failures.

[Josh Radner]

So many.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, actually, I had a question before from something you were saying. Did your castmates on How I met your mother. I know you were saying they all sort of came into this with different configurations of fame. Were you all connected? Did your struggle impact how you related to everybody off screen? Or.

[Josh Radner]

I would say that those four actors at the start of it were much more comfortable with the pitiless gaze of the camera than I was. I was still largely a theater actor. I hadn't had a TV show that, you know, Ali had already done seven years of Buffy And Jason was on Freaks and Geeks and Neil had this whole thing, and Kobe was a model, but had already done a bunch of TV stuff. And, like, they were just all a little more comfortable with the camera and with the whole world of it. I was like, I'm from Ohio. Like, I was really, I felt like I was really. And, you know, I, I got seasoned pretty quickly and I learned the ropes pretty quickly. But it wasn't, I had to find other outlets to talk about it because I think I was approximating a kind of comfort that I didn't actually feel like I was like, play acting a little bit. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's normal that we're starring on a television show. This is fine. And, you know, I grew. By the time I got off that show, I was a different being. And, and I, I, I had learned how to be, you know, but, but it was hard. And I, I think I always felt a little more connected to the writers. Like, I've always felt this internal struggle between, like, the writer part of me and the actor part of me. The actor part of me is like, put me in the center, you know, put me in coach. Like, I'll be the protagonist. Like, you can watch me do the thing. And then the writer is like, lurking in the corner, observing, wanting to have a much more intimate one on one conversation. It's more how I am at parties. Like, I'm never, like, at a party, like, you know, clicking a glass so everyone, you know, will look at me. Like, I'm like, with you when? The night I met you. Like, I like a good conversation in the corner. I'm not the kind of actor that, like, you know, giving a wedding toast is like a nightmare.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Like, right.

[Josh Radner]

I'm not a look at me, look at me, look at me all the time kind of person. So I struggle with this kind of self consciousness where I want to be telling stories, but sometimes from behind the.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Monitor, I so relate to that. I think that was part of what interested me about getting into producing was this idea of using my lens that's been shaped by really unique experiences to examine other people's stories, you know, and how you do storytelling that way. So you were sort of alluding to this before, but there is a, there's a gift and a beauty and I think something that can actually become intoxicating in some ways of an ability to share a story, whether it's your own or other people's, and to have it land and connect and be meaningful and sometimes helping other people. Yeah, it's really, there's something really intoxicating about it.

[Josh Radner]

It's the best. And I think, you know, when I think, like most of how we learn, especially as kids, is like through stories, you know. And I read there was some indigenous tribe somewhere and they outlawed, like, you weren't allowed to talk about the ancestors because they thought it would invoke the. The wrathful spirits of the ancestors. So you weren't allowed to talk about who had come by before. And this tribe died out. And they think that it's like, along with air, food, water, shelter, that story is the other element that keeps us alive and connected to each other. So I think of it in quite. Maybe, I don't want to say too grand, but I think about being a storyteller as quite a holy thing, you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Know, and once the show ended and you. You are trying to sort of move into a next phase, what did that look like for you?

[Josh Radner]

I'm trying to think. I mean, I did a great Richard Greenberg play the summer right after with some wonderful people. We ended up doing it at Lincoln Center a couple years later. And then I was on Broadway for nine months. I did this play called Disgraced, this Akhtar play that won the Pulitzer Prize.

[Monica Lewinsky]

How did I not know about that?

[Josh Radner]

I don't know. It was 11 years ago, but 10 years ago.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Trying to think. I would have been living in New York, I think then.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So I. Yeah, well, not as cultured as I think I am. Damn it.

[Josh Radner]

And then I did this show called Mercy street for pbs, this Civil War show. I played this morphine addicted Civil War surgeon, which was really fun for two seasons.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You might. When. I think that might have been around.

[Josh Radner]

That might have been around when I met you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I think so.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I think. Or when we were.

[Josh Radner]

Because I met Jared, we were on the. Had a jury at Tribeca Film Festival. So that's how I met him. That must have been like 2012. Okay, maybe 2011. So I definitely have known him that long. Yeah. And then, you know, I was doing different plays. I did a show for NBC called Rise. But. But at the same time, I had started writing songs with Ben Lee, who's an Australian songwriter. And we had a band called Radner and Lee. We toured. We, you know, put out two records. I learned how to play guitar. I started writing my own songs. So I was always, you know, and constantly writing. I mean, I. I started being a writer because I didn't like the powerlessness of waiting for the phone to ring as an actor. And I was like, I Want to be creative every day, right. So let me see if I can, like, give myself a creative structure.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I know for me, there. There. I think there was a big turning point for me in my life when I realized, kind of coming out, when I went to graduate school, I thought I was gonna. And I went all the way to another country, and I thought, all right, Monica Lewinsky and the beret is going to stay in the States, right? And now I'm going to be Monica Lewinsky, the graduate student, and soon to have a master's in social psychology. And that was an epic failure in terms of thinking about leaving identities. And ultimately, with all the work I had to do, kind of post that, not getting a job, et cetera, et cetera, I realized the magic pill was integration. Like, that there was no letting go of this aspect of my identity connected to story that had happened. That was part of the collective consciousness. And so did you have to do that? I mean, playing a part for a long time, you're talking about that. People are. Someone's telling you you should change your name legally to your fucking character.

[Josh Radner]

What a person.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right?

[Josh Radner]

And.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And they probably thought it was a compliment.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know what I mean? Like, that's always. That's always.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Funny, too, when people go, oh, you're. You're much prettier in person than I thought.

[Josh Radner]

You're like, okay, yeah. But, yeah, so, yeah, I think that, I don't know, getting married really has helped. Helped a lot of this.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Josh Radner]

Because, like I said, my wife had never seen the show. We're watching it now, and she wanted to fill herself in on this big chapter of my life that she wasn't around for. But she's. So we were actually talking about this this morning. She's so alert to my sensitivities around this stuff. Like, she knows that my nerve endings are exposed around this thing. And she was so delicate in her handling of it and her. And her empathy around it. She. I don't know why. She was just really uniquely suited to understand it and not, you know, she. You know, I had permission to talk about it as much as I needed to. Right. And we don't talk about it. You know, we don't talk about it all the time, but I think I felt there's a person that really sees me as me. Like, I feel in. In all my stuff. She even sees that. That ugly, shamey part of me that I don't want anyone to see. She's seen that. She loves it. You know what I mean? Like, it's all, it's all good.

[Monica Lewinsky]

She sounds amazing.

[Josh Radner]

She's fantastic. You would like her so much. We should all get together.

[Monica Lewinsky]

For sure.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. I think that that allowed me to, you know, I, I. You might have read the newsletter I wrote about Ted Mosby and about how I, I, I felt like I needed to run away from it because I was so afraid of collapsing under the weight of it or being thought of as, as exclusively that, that I had to almost act like that it hadn't happened. Like, I had to, I had to act like it hadn't happened or like, oh, that was just, that's just one thing on my resume, you know, instead of like, no, it was nine years. It was like, a lot. Like, who does anything for nine years? Like, it's, it was a weird long, long, long run. But I think what happened was I just almost somewhat recently, I'd say the last couple years, but really, even in the last year, my decision to do this podcast with Craig Thomas.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. How we made your mother a rewatch.

[Josh Radner]

A rewatch. Yeah. How We Made youe Mother was partly spurred by, you know, wanting to show Jordana the show. But I just said, well, let's formally. Let's just watch it and talk about it. And it's been so wonderful, one to watch the show with so much more compassion and so much less, like, ruthless judgment of myself. Like, like, you know, when you, you, you look back at, like, I don't know, like, high school or something, and you're like, I was hideous.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And then you look at the photos, you're like, you know what? I was young and fine looking. Like, I was.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I'm not so sure some of my high school photos, but I sometimes am.

[Josh Radner]

You know, I can see the awkward kid.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

But I also am like, oh, you were really. You thought you looked.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Like an ogre.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

You know, and you didn't.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

And I'm. And I'm watching this show, and I'm like, I was. I remember being so hard on myself and, and I'm like, oh, you were good. Like, you were really good on this show. That's the reason people want you to be this character. Like, they, I mean, some of them, people don't like him, but a lot of people do.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

So I found some peace by just saying, like, okay, this happened. This is a huge part of me. And like you said, I think you use the word integration. Like, you know, it's very Jungian. It's like the shadow. Like, you have to kind of say, like, you're in me. You're part of me. You are me. You're just a part. You know, I said that in the thing. Like it's a part I played, but it's also a part of me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Because you created it with the writers, but you created it.

[Josh Radner]

The other thing is it's like it's a part, but it's not the whole.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

I get. What drove me crazy was when people would think the mistake the part for the whole and I would be like, oh my God, I. There's a whole lot more.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You contain multitudes, I contain multitudes.

[Josh Radner]

And I. And it's a sitcom. It's a 22 minute sitcom. And I didn't like being flattened or reduced into this thing, even though that character, I think had an incredible amount of dimension and complexity for a sitcom character, some of which was the writers and some of it is what I brought to it. But I think I just had to say, yeah, like I had to reclaim, you know.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. No, I mean it's, it's a, it's one of the, you know, I love about this show and, and I think what's being thankfully borne out of this idea that reclaiming can be really elastic and a Rewatch podcast is a reclaiming. Not that there has to be this. There's not a concrete reclaiming that happens in each of these chats, but I think it is really interesting to me because I think we all find. I had to watch some clips of the Barbara Walters interview that I did in 1998. You know, that's always your first television interview with Barbara. And I just, I was trying so hard to find compassion for little Monica. Yeah, she's trying so hard. But we all have those experiences where you sort of go back, whether it's a right a re. I haven't done any. Did you do any high school reunion stuff?

[Josh Radner]

I've done one or two. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, I haven't done any of that. But I think we all find in so many different ways, you know, run into an ex or something and so you're kind of that being forced to confront or choosing to confront a different version, a less evolved version, a younger version of yourself.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, it feels to me a little bit like these parts of ourselves, it's like, like internal family systems. I don't know if you've ever done that, right?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Radner]

But like there's parts of ourselves that are still actively alive. They have needs, they have fears, but they're like, you know, an 8 year old's fear or a 16 year old fear or. And you know, I, I worked with this wonderful therapist who was always reminding me like, yeah, that part is, is asking for your attention. But there's also an adult online now. Like, there's an adult you that can talk to that part and say, I hear you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

You know, I'm gonna take care of it. I'm not gonna abandon you. We're gonna be fine. If I can't figure it out, we'll find someone who can, you know, like really figuring out how to self soothe. But, but it's that part that you almost have to like, even if you don't have children, like be a good parent.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

To the kid.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Or I, I mean, I love that this, this thing that my therapist said to me about even just the recognition of how, how quickly one part can step forward or recede or whatever of that. The you who sent the email may not be the you that's waiting for the response.

[Josh Radner]

Oh my God, that's so good.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right?

[Josh Radner]

That's so good.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's so good. I know. And so there's, you know, it, it is. Those things are so helpful to hear and remember because we tend to just experience everything so streamlined, you know, as that one, one version of ourselves. But, and yet it's. Did you read the Untethered Soul?

[Josh Radner]

I've started it a number of times. Okay.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Have you listened to it?

[Josh Radner]

No.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay. I'm gonna change your life because I had the exact same experience and someone told me to listen to it and I was able. And now I've listened to it multiple times.

[Josh Radner]

Okay, great. That's a good tip.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, it's a funny. But I love that book and I love the part where it's sort of that question around consciousness and of, well, you have the voice in your head, but who's listening to the voice in your head, which you consider that voice in your head. You. But there's a you that's listening.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. I find it hard to be in a society that, that does want us to be one thing and wants us to be reduced to one thing so they can, Everyone can figure it out.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

But like even about the Enneagram, when, when you said, like, well, what part are you asking about? And on what day are you asking? Because like, I don't know, I'm. I sometimes am an incredibly impatient person, and sometimes I have heroic patience and I sometimes am an optimist and other times I can get really dreary and melancholy and I, I, I think that what I was doing in some way without being able to articulate it all these years was I was trying to fight for the right to be a lot of different things and not one thing. I didn't want to be collapsed into one thing. It felt. I felt bullied by it. I felt like, stop telling me who I am, I'll tell you who I am.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

You know?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, I think, I think there's some. It's interesting and makes so much sense of that happening around an actor and a part, but I think we. Or someone who's in a scandal league being told those things. But I just think that there's so many different ways that that plays into life, which I think women may find in a workplace or people may find in family situations. You know what I mean? It just feels so. I don't normally think about things this way, but for some reason this morning I'm thinking about the universality of just a lot of what you're saying. And it just feels so resonant.

[Josh Radner]

Again, the specifics are different, but the. I think everyone or a lot of people have had the feeling of, oh, I had an indelicate moment. And therefore people think I'm this now forever. And I'm very wary of, you know, even our society's villains. We all agree on the villains.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Like, I think there's more to those stories. Like, I actually think that granting people a kind of dimensionality and, and variety and I don't know if multiplicity is the word, but, but like really granting them the. That there's more than their, their best moment or worst moment. Like, I think that it's like, that's like the birthplace of compassion. Right. Because we.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, and dignity.

[Josh Radner]

And dignity. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Dignity is, I just think is such an important thing that we don't talk about enough or consider enough for different things. And so, yeah, the last question I like to ask everybody is what is something you're wanting to reclaim right now? And that can be anything from a part of your identity, an emotion, a thing, if you have something.

[Josh Radner]

I think the first thing that comes to me is I would like to reclaim my own ability to define success for myself. And not again, it's self perception, like, not jump into the eyes of other people, most of whom I don't know, and say like, oh, this is what I must look like or what my career must look like. Instead to just, you know, I'm, I'm. I'm on this like, tour right now as a musician. I'm 50. Like, I'm way too old for this, you know, but the. The people who come to the shows and. And. And buy the vinyl and tell me how much my career is meant to them and songs mean to them, like, I. If I'm not calling that success, I'm just creating misery for myself. Like, I.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

You know, I don't. I don't have aspirations to play arenas. Like, I don't think my stuff would even sit well there. It's a much more intimate thing that I'm engaged in, but I think just really letting success be a little simpler than I defined it. Like, I make my living telling stories, and those stories affect people, and I think that that needs to be enough.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

Or I'm gonna create misery for myself. And then I think the more, you know, there is. There does seem to be a spiritual law around, and the more, you know, the more you can love what you have, the more you'll be given.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

So I feel like I'm in a sweet moment. If I'm trying to let that. Whatever part of me tells me to be dissatisfied or that there has to be more, I'm just trying to say, I hear you, buddy. You know? I hear you. But we're just gonna go out and perform tonight, and we're gonna have a good time, and. And we're gonna go home.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, that's great. Oh, thank you so much, Josh.

[Josh Radner]

I'm so happy to be able to talk to you on the record, but.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Let'S find some time off. I know. We will. We will. Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF Media studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin, and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker, and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty, and Marshall Louie.