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Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.
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I remember being on set and I was standing near this oak tree and I just looked up and I thought of like, oh, all of the things that this oak tree has seen. It has been here for over 200 years. And I heard Billie Holiday Strange Fruit, and I thought of all the beautiful bodies who have seen this tree as their last image. And all I did was I prayed for the ancestors to use me as a vessel.
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B
Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me.
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A
Of course. Okay, first off, when I had Andrew Rannells on, he had to teach me. He was like, it's Rannells rhymes with panels. And I feel like I have heard people say your last name so many different ways. Yes. So how do you introduce yourself? Journey Smollett Smollett okay, so not Smollet.
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B
No.
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A
Okay, Smollett.
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B
Okay, Smollett.
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A
All right, now we know. So we first met. I think it was earlier. Was it. I'm like, was it still this year?
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B
It was. Yeah.
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A
This year.
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B
Was that Shani's.
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A
Exactly. At Shani Darden's. Amazing, that product launch. I think I stole some extra stuff, by the way. I'm sorry, Shani.
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B
We all did.
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A
I was like, okay, this is. I'm like, we deserve more.
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B
Grabbing another bottle.
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A
Exactly. Exactly. It was so great, and it was just so nice to get to know you.
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B
I know.
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A
In that it was. It just felt like such a connect, and then I. I won't give it away if I can't, but I was thinking about. There was that weird moment, I don't know if you remember, where I was like, I have a feeling you're gonna portray this person in a project. And you had said, oh, my gosh. Like, we're just talking about this. Is that any further? Is that anything you can say yet? Because I'm so excited for it.
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B
I know. I know. I can't. Yeah, we're really. We're working on it. I'm very excited about it. It is. It's a project. Yes. Misha Green and I are putting this project together. I can't talk about it.
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A
Okay. Okay.
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B
Prematurely. I'm also, you know.
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A
Yeah, yeah. Don't want to jinx it. Yeah, yeah, no, no, totally. Totally. I get it.
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B
But it was crazy because you. And you said, I feel like you're going to portray. And I was like, wait, do you know?
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A
Well, on some level, I did.
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B
Really?
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A
But it was just. But it was just interesting. And I think as I got to know you that night and then sort of feeling like I was getting to know you more, preparing for our conversation, it all made even more sense to me, I think, because something we have in. And I'm not gonna give any of it away, I promise. But so I think something we have in common is we're both interested in the idea around transgenerational trauma and epigenetics. And I think you were talking about how that, like, you're feeling, your DNA has the memory of your ancestors of both, right? Like your mom, who's black and from the south, and your dad, who was Jewish. And so just, like, I'm curious as to, you know, how you figured that out for yourself, that you're, you know, looking at all this transgenerational memory that's come through from all these vast experiences and how that impacts what you're bringing to the screen.
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B
Oh, I love that question. I don't know that I've ever been asked it in that way before. Yes, I am very fascinated by memory, blood memory, how our DNA holds instructions. And there's so much research out there about that now. That's really, really fascinating. And, yes, I sit at the intersection of multiple identities. Raised, you know, by a black woman. And my dad passed away a few years ago, but he. Ashkenazi.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so growing up, my mom really made such an effort to give us guidance in knowing that, okay, you have this very eclectic background, and you come from multiple cultures, but you don't have to be one of those people that's just like walking through life lost. Right. Like, you can celebrate the entirety of who you are. You can own who you are. You don't have to apologize for who you are. And so she would do really beautiful things. Like, we would celebrate Easter and Passover. We would celebrate Hanukkah, Christmas and Kwanzaa.
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Right.
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You know, and she really wanted us to just. It was just about embracing our whole self. And, yes, I am a black woman, and I know how the world sees me, and I know the limitations the world wants to put on me. You know, it's very interesting. Human beings, like, we. We have to categorize. We have to make complex things very simple and just boil it down, right? And I think, you know, really embracing my history has helped me be able to own the entirety of who I am, unapologetically. And so, yes, it is something that I bring to the screen. It's something I bring to different characters. People often joke on me of, like, I do a lot of historical period pieces, you know, and I don't think that's coincidental. I think I am drawn to this idea of inspecting my history and wanting to understand it more. I played years ago, there was a character, Rosalie, in a TV show called Underground. And it was about this group of folks who were enslaved on a plantation, and they rose up and ran away and what that journey looked like. Right. And I went into that project a month after my dad passed. And in the project, my character Rosalie, is the product of a black woman and unfortunately, the product of what is referred to in the show as the slave massa. And I just remember feeling in different scenes, we shot on an actual plantation.
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A
Wow.
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B
And feeling like, you know, I don't entirely know how I'm going to actually execute this scene. There's a scene in the pilot of Underground in which my character is being whipped and we know the historical context of that, right? And Misha Green, the creator, the co. Creator and co showrunner of Underground, she also created Lovecraft Country.
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Right.
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She and I initially really butt heads on how to do this scene. And in hindsight, I realized the pressure we were both under. Like we didn't want to participate in any sort of trauma porn, you know, but you also want to get it right and you want to historically pay tribute to the truth and be a vessel for truth. And I remember us just like debating and arguing about how we were going to shoot this scene. To the point where I just said, the night before we were going to shoot the scene, I said to the director, Anthony Hemingway, I don't want to talk about this scene tomorrow. Don't talk to me.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Don't say nothing. All I want you to do, just let the cameras roll. And I just ask that you shoot everyone else. And when you get to me, I just ask. Don't let me hear the sound of the whip until the camera is rolling because I don't really know how I'm gonna do this tomorrow. Like, wow. I remember being on set and I was standing near this oak tree and I just looked up and I thought of, like, oh, all of the things that this oak tree has seen. It has been here for over 200 years. Yeah. And I heard Billie Holiday, strange Fruit. And I thought of all the beautiful bodies who have seen this tree as their last image. And all I did was I prayed for the ancestors to use me as a vessel. And we did this scene and he just kept the cameras rolling. We did it a few takes and I remember I felt completely taken over by spirit. I felt completely taken over by something higher than myself. And that blood memory, that connection to the memory, both the triumph and the tragedy of my folks, of my history, of my people, does reverberate in moments that are important. And so, yeah, it is something that I'm always aware of. My grandmother cleaned the homes of white folks, right? And she wouldn't get home until 8 o' clock at night. You know, my mom and my aunt and uncles, they had to live such an independent life because she was a single black woman in the South. And they had to get themselves ready for school. They had to get themselves ready when they got home for dinner and do their own homework. Like, she couldn't really be as present in their life because she had to go and be in this home raising other folks, kids, right? And so I think about, like, if my grandmother could see the life I'm able to give my son now. Right. Like, I'm her wildest dream, really. You know, the fact that you and I can sit here and I can talk about her memory, but also never actually have to live like that. I can. I'm privileged in the way that I can be there for my son, comes with me on set. My work, you know, he's so involved with it, and I can give him such a different life, you know, like, it. It brings me chills when I think about it. Yeah.
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A
Well, I think also, too, your. That the work you're doing is also not just helping your son in that way, but it's helping other people's children, too. I pray, you know. You know, that's the. It's so powerful, and I. It's such a complicated thing. I'm sitting here listening to you, and I just think, how have we not handled this well yet? How have we not? You know, it's always a thorny, difficult place, but it's just that thing of, what does that look like? You know, what does that look like? To find a way to. Can you make people whole from something that horrible? Those kinds of horrible experiences that. That happen in slavery. I don't know the answer. Nor. Nor am I the, you know, white person, the one to. To kind of figure that out, but it is.
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B
You are part of it, though. Okay? You. You. We all are. My belief. My belief is we all are in this nation living with our very complicated history, you know, and. No, you nor I lived that. Right. But I think the fact we're even able to discuss it and the fact that we operate in our life in a way with a level of awareness of our history and the very complicated history of our nation, I think that is essential. I think we all are a part of the solution. You know, it's complicated because especially now, we're living in a world where it often feels like we take one step forward, we take 10 steps backwards, you.
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A
Know, especially as women.
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B
Yes, yes. And in the climate we are in right now, you know, you turn the news on every single day. It just makes you want to stay in bed. Right. But I do believe in the power of the collective energy.
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A
I do, too.
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I do, too. And I believe in the power of us as individuals, you know, in gathering and discussing and confronting. So I do think you have the power. You do.
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A
You know, I think it just is a. I think there's the feeling of wanting to do something, I think, because harmony is something that's really always resonated with Me of just harmony within yourself. Harmony within a gathering. Harmony within people. And so that sense of such injustice was done. And how do we find a way to heal what happened so that we get to. If that's even possible? Maybe that's some fantasy that I have that there's a way to move forward with harmony where you don't forget what happened, but you somehow heal and move forward.
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Yeah.
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You know, and I don't know, I guess I think about the things that have happened to me in my life. And I wouldn't want someone who didn't experience that to say, well, here's what the answer is. Here's how to heal that. Here's how to make this right. I would want it to come from me or from someone who has experienced what I've experienced in some ways.
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B
I hear you. I hear you. I guess when I walked in here, it's like I look around and everyone working in your studio comes from such eclectic backgrounds. And I applaud you for that, Monica, because that's change. You know, if we had been in a studio like this 20 years ago, it wouldn't have looked like that. And hiring practices matter. And when you walk into a room, if you are in a position of power bringing folks who don't look like you into that room actually matters. And I'm sure you saw the reports where it's like, okay, hundreds of thousands of black women have lost their jobs.
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A
I didn't see this just this year.
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B
Oh, wow. Just this year alone. And so, no, I'm not saying you as a white woman can be the source of change. But I'm saying you are part of the solution can help.
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Try to support just in how you.
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Live your life, just in how you operate. If we have access to power, any of us who have access to power, are we consciously bringing folks in who wouldn't necessarily have access to certain rooms? To me, that is one of the smallest things we can do, you know, in our society, especially in the climate we're in where we're experiencing so much resistance to that change.
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A
It's interesting because Candace, whom you met, one of our producers, she was saying. So she's also black and Jewish. And now do you identify as Jewish, too, or is that.
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I identify as both. Yes. But I. Look, I'm a black woman. You know, that's the core of my identity. But it doesn't mean I can't embrace.
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And I love what you said in the beginning. I'm gonna steal your phrase of, like, sitting at the intersection of multiple Identities. And I really, I like that. But it was interesting cause Candice was saying that that's not often something she meets in people. And that her experience of having parents who came from two marginalized groups and that it sort of forged this level of resilience in her. So I'm just so curious. Yeah. If you agree.
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B
Absolutely. You know, my, my grandmother, my 95 year old grandmother.
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A
Oh, she's still with. Oh, what's her name?
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Molly.
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Molly. Hi, Molly.
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She is spunky. You know, she's on my dad's side and she often tells me this story about our great grandmother in Romania.
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Yeah.
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Being, you know, in a march that broke out and there were, you know, the military opened fire. Wow. On the folks who had organized and were marching. Early 1900s. Wow. And that a bullet went right past her and hit the man behind her who was walking right behind her. Oh, my God. And I, I'm just like. I mean, if that bullet would have hit her, I wouldn't be here, you know. But the level. Absolutely. Resilience. I mean, you, you know, I come.
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From a long line of really strong women, so I get it.
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You gotta get up. You gotta get up, you know? No, so it's not really about how many times you get knocked out. It's about how many times you get up.
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A
Exactly. Yeah. And you. So where were you raised?
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So I was born in New York, Queens. We lived in Elmhurst, Queens, when I was born. But we moved to LA when I was fairly young and just kept kind of moving back and forth my whole childhood. So I, I really don't claim la.
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I was raised here too. And it's funny because I was born in San Francisco but raised in la.
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Okay.
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And then, you know, ended up on the east coast. And I sort of. I like when people think I'm a New Yorker.
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B
Exactly. I was like, New York.
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I still have my 917 number.
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See, you know, so I feel you. New York, you know, it still feels like home. Whenever I'm back there, I don't know what it is, you know, look, I live in la. Most of my family lives here, raising my son here. But it's just the culture of New York, you just. It's unlike any place on earth, you know, I love it there.
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A
Well, it's interesting. I saw Marina Abramovich being interviewed for the New Yorker Festival, long time ago, pre pandemic. And she quoted Susan Sontag as having. I haven't been able to find the quote, even though I've looked for it. But as having said that what made New York so unique is that most cities are built on natural material that absorbs energy, and New York is built on granite that reflects energy. And I was like, that makes so much sense to me, you know, in that way.
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B
I love that.
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A
Yeah. Because there is a propulsive feeling about Heartbeat. Yeah. Although I found this. I can't remember his name, but I'm obsessed with this guy on Instagram who rates New Yorkers walking. And I'm just like, oh, yes. Oh, yes. I would get a very good score. I am a very good New York City walker. Like, just the. You know, I love that. Yeah. And so. So you've got six siblings, right?
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B
I have five siblings.
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A
And then you. The six. One of six. Okay. And so now I just have a younger brother. And growing up, we would do shit. Like, you know, we'd perform for our parents, or we would make restaurants. And because he's younger, he always got the shitty jobs. Like, whatever we were doing, it was like, okay, you be the clown or you be this. I'm in charge now with all of you being performers. What did that look like? Did you guys do that?
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B
Oh. So my mom, we didn't have a lot of money growing up. You know, my parents separated when I was 12, and it was like, sometimes we would make a lot of money, and then we would go through seasons where we were just impoverished. Right. And she wasn't a real big gift giver. Like, for Christmas or birthday, she wanted. Or receiver, you know, she wanted us to either make her something or to perform. So every Mother's Day or her birthday, I don't want y' all kids get me no flowers. Flowers are for funerals. Like, that's what she would say. I don't want you buying me nothing. I want you to perform. Y' all do a concert for me. That's all she wanted.
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A
Yeah.
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And so she would sometimes request certain songs, like assign us to sing something or do a monologue or a scene, whatever. And, yes, we all would have to take turns. And she was the queen. She'd sit on the couch, and we would either put on a costume or play something or sing. Whatever it was. I mean, it was. Performing was honestly the foundation of our household. We always had music playing or Sound of Music on the TV or cooking a big meal. I mean, creativity, art, it was such a center of my upbringing, which I'm so grateful to my mom for that, because I do feel that there's so much power in art, even if you're not a professional artist and pursuing It. I do believe that we all innately are creative in something. And that creative outlet is important to express, you know, and channel in some way or another.
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A
Yeah. No, it's funny you reminded me talking about this with your mom, that. My mom, for her 70th birthday, she made all of us. So my brother and me and my cousin and my aunt and my sister in law, we all had to perform for her a Broadway medley.
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B
Come on.
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A
Yeah. No, no Broadway medley. At least one song had to be from Sunday in the park with George.
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B
I love it.
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A
And there had to be. We each had to individual songs and then a group number and it was. It was pretty. So.
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B
I mean, it's fun.
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A
It was fun. It was fun. I used to sing a long time ago when I was younger, but not so much anymore, so.
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B
Okay.
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A
Not even in the shower, but I should start it back up again.
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B
You should, yeah. You should.
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A
It is. Do you sing as well?
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B
I do, yeah. I do, yeah. And I've recently started teaching myself the piano.
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A
Oh, yeah.
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B
Which brings me so much peace and calm. It's almost like a meditation for me. It's one of the few things that can get my mind to quiet down because you have to focus so much. You're reading the sheet music at the same time and playing. And if I'm playing and singing, then it really zones me out.
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A
Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. I took piano lessons as a kid, but I didn't stick with it. And I bought a guitar one year and. But I really bought it because I liked the way it looked and I kind of. It was like red glitter, acoustic, electric. I was like, I'm so cool.
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B
Little rock star.
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A
Yeah, exactly.
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B
Yeah.
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A
He was 30, so. But it's amazing that you started performing at 10 months, right?
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B
I've been in front of the camera in front of 10. Since 10 months.
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A
Yes, since 10 months. And then it was at age 11 that you were in Eve's Bayou.
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B
10?
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A
Yes, 10. Okay, 10. And what? Like, I just think about the intensity of the story and so how did you process that as a kid? Like, what did that mean for you and that experience and, yeah, that was.
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B
A very pivotal moment for me in my childhood. I didn't realize it then, but it was for sure the project that made me fall in love with the craft. I think prior to that it was like Little League, you know, it was fun. You got to go on set and play dress up and get candy at craft service, you know, and if there was a live audience on the sitcom, you Got a real time reaction. But it wasn't until I did Yves by youy was my second film that I learned the art of crafting a character, thinking like a character, inspecting the inner life of a character, building inner monologues of a character. And it's interesting because Eve deals with a lot of internal observations about her parents marriage falling apart. And it kind of coincided with that in my own life. Oh, wow. And my parents were going through a really tumultuous time. And witnessing that with any child is not easy. Right. And you're trying to make sense of it. On one hand, you want them to stay together, but then on the other hand, with this level of tension and conflict in the house, you want it to just end by any means necessary.
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A
Just my parents divorce and. Exactly.
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B
Yeah.
- [27:01]
A
Agree.
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B
Yeah. And so I could relate to Eve in a number of ways. And Casey Lemons, our writer director, Samuel L. Jackson, who played my father, and so many of the other Lynn Whitfield, you know, Debbie Morgan. They helped me just by asking me questions, you know.
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A
Like what?
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B
You know, asking me, well, how would you feel if you walked in and saw your dad. Wow. Kissing another woman? You know, just asking me how I would feel helped me connect to what Eve is feeling in this moment. And so by inspecting the inner life of a character, I feel like, honestly, it brought me a little bit of healing and understanding in what was going on in my life. While the situation was so different. There wasn't infidelity or things like that that I witnessed, but it's still, at its core, I was able to understand how to bring your experience to a character, and that helps bring a character's soul to life. You bring your eyes, you know, you find their eyes, you know, wow, what a beautiful.
- [28:13]
A
Do you write poetry at all?
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B
I do.
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A
What a beautiful way to put it. You find their eyes.
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B
I can't take credit for that. One of my mentors, Alfre Woodard.
- [28:24]
A
Oh, wow.
- [28:25]
B
Said that to me a long time ago at the key in building a character is you just gotta find their eyes, the way they see the world, you know?
- [28:33]
A
Yeah.
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B
And so I remember a very clear moment in Yves Value when I was in a scene with Samuel L. Jackson. It's a scene right after I've witnessed my father, played by him, kissing and having, you know, extra marriage affairs with another woman. And my character experiences, like, a panic attack witnessing it. And he takes me out, realizes I've witnessed this. And instead of talking about what we've just witnessed, we talk about why he never dances with me at parties. And isn't that true to life? You know, like we often, when confronted with uncomfortable moments, we don't know how to process it and we talk about other things. And so there was a moment in the scene where I get up to hug him and it occurred to me that the mask would fall. I mean, I was 10 years old, but I was able to think like her. Wow. The mask would fall. Once he can't see my face. When my face is rested on his shoulder, I could just let it all go.
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A
Wow. Fuck.
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B
And it was a high, you know. Yeah. And I think that's what we as artists are chasing is that that meditation, that experience, you know, stepping into another spirit. It really helps you have a level of understanding of your own humanity. I couldn't grasp that. I wasn't conscious of that obviously at 10. But that is what made me fall in love. In love with the craft.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Is understanding my own humanity more.
- [30:23]
A
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C
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- [32:34]
A
It's interesting because one of the things that came up for me a lot and in hindsight I realized I was feeling it when we met, but I didn't know how to articulate it. But in thinking about more, seeing more of your work, hearing you more, reading you more, you have this strong feminine presence.
- [32:56]
B
Oh, thank you.
- [32:57]
A
Yeah.
- [32:58]
B
Women who run with the wolves.
- [33:00]
A
Yeah. But also now sitting here with you, I'm like, oh, you're also an old soul.
- [33:06]
B
I've been told that my entire life.
- [33:08]
A
Well, I mean, I'm like, think about, you know, put yourself in this chair and think about what I just hearing you talk about at 10 years old, you were doing. I was fucking playing with Barbies, like, and you are. Oh, the mask would fall. The, you know, just the ability of inspection. And it's just, it's such a, it's such a beautiful and powerful thing. Like, it's emotional. Like, it is just a really. You just have, you're very special and you have something really special in you.
- [33:40]
B
You make me cry.
- [33:40]
A
Well, I, I feel that way of like you and it just is, I think in today's world. And you're still such a young woman compared to 52 now. Now I'm hearing my mom who's like, why do you talk about your age so much in your podcast?
- [33:55]
B
Listen, my 95 year old grandmother would be like, honey, yeah, you're young.
- [34:01]
A
But it's just, I mean, like, where do you think, think that sort of feminine strength and I mean old soul we come in with. Right? But that sort of. Where does that come from for you?
- [34:12]
B
My mother. One day when you meet my mother, you will understand my mother is such a force and has been really the center of my world my entire life. And talk about being resilient, you know, what she comes from, what she has seen, what she has experienced. And then to have to raise six kids, six black kids.
- [34:40]
A
Black Jewish kids. Black Jewish kids.
- [34:42]
B
Okay. And then put them in this industry. And just the level of integrity that she's always walked with, you know, it's been, she's been my North Star. And I receive your, your lovely words with so much humility. Thank you so much. Really. Yeah. The defined feminine energy Is something that I do meditate on a lot. You know, like it's, it's. Whatever it is, it's a mystical, It's a mystical being. It's a mystical energy.
- [35:18]
A
It's another connection.
- [35:20]
B
Right.
- [35:20]
A
It's another strand of connection.
- [35:22]
B
Yeah.
- [35:22]
A
To generations past, to worlds before the patriarchy.
- [35:28]
B
And you know, and I do really believe. I have a very potent spiritual life and do believe in a higher power and do believe in another dimension that we are not able to see, taste, but we can feel it.
- [35:48]
A
Yeah. You know many dimensions. Yeah, many. I mean even now science is starting to talk about.
- [35:54]
B
They're finally starting.
- [35:56]
A
I know.
- [35:56]
B
Okay, guys, we're gonna admit like someone, someone. It was a lied. Someone had posted that. Oh. So Chat GPT said that there is a God. Yeah. Wait. Yeah. Okay.
- [36:10]
A
Yeah, no, it's, it is. I mean and it's really interesting to me too that I think a few years ago and I feel like at some point in the future it will reveal itself more culturally of what. What the significance was. But the fact that like marvel and everything everywhere all at once. Like there was all this stuff talking about the multiverse like you know, in entertainment coming out and it was super fucking popular.
- [36:39]
B
Yeah.
- [36:39]
A
And that was really interesting to me of just that sort of recognition of younger generation shifting consciousness like in that way.
- [36:50]
B
But I mean it's, it's. Look, it's. It would be. It's so pompous.
- [36:56]
A
Yes.
- [36:56]
B
And so I mean self centered or I don't know, what else can we say, you know, like to think that we are truly the center of the universe. Right?
- [37:04]
A
Yeah.
- [37:05]
B
Like it's.
- [37:05]
A
Come on, it just doesn't even. It doesn't even make sense.
- [37:09]
B
Right.
- [37:10]
A
It's just not like yes, I believe in miracles.
- [37:13]
B
Yes.
- [37:13]
A
But I don't think it could just be this. Like there's energy, it comes before us, it stays after us.
- [37:21]
B
You can't. It can't be built or destroyed.
- [37:23]
A
Exactly.
- [37:24]
B
It can't be created or destroyed. And so it's just like surrendering to the fact that we don't know anything. We know. We know nothing at all.
- [37:35]
A
Right.
- [37:35]
B
You know, like what does your.
- [37:38]
A
Like I'm very spiritual. I'm very.
- [37:39]
B
Woo woo.
- [37:40]
A
What does your spirituality look like?
- [37:43]
B
My practice, you know, it is grounded in and I really don't mind whatever people call it, like universe, spirit, God. I refer to it as God because that is what resonates with me. But the higher being, the higher consciousness, it is something that has guided me my entire life and speaks to me in those moments, you know, you can't always. I can't always quantify it. I can feel it. So I do have a ritual. I believe in rituals. I believe in discipline and practice and to do lists.
- [38:31]
A
I'm always like, oh, I'd love to be that person Cindy Crawford was on. And she was like, this is my morning routine. And I just thought, that is my fantasy morning routine. And I would, even if I had all the things, I would still not. I'm just not the routine person.
- [38:46]
B
But I am the person that every night, unless it's like, okay, I know in the morning I'm sleeping in, or it's a family day, or it's a weekend or holiday, but if it's not, every single night, I pull out my daily planner and I write my day for the next day down to the half hour. Wow. And you know, not when I'm on set or things like that, because that is.
- [39:17]
A
But like last night, did you.
- [39:19]
B
Yes.
- [39:19]
A
Okay.
- [39:20]
B
You're included.
- [39:20]
A
Okay.
- [39:21]
B
I mean, I was late to you because I didn't plan for my breakfast meeting to go as long, but you know, yeah, I do. I have it. Like I wake up at this time and I, I pray, I meditate and I journal and I have my lemon water or my tea and then, you know, I, I, I'll have like my shower. And like, I literally plan my day and the act of checking off and scratching off each thing helps my self esteem. It just helps me feel accomplished. I'm someone who's very ambitious and I'm someone who's very like, driven and I have goals and things I want to meet. And if I don't have structure, the day will just go away. And I'm just like, wait, where'd my day go? Just like, I'm someone, I have to carry a water bottle around.
- [40:15]
A
Okay.
- [40:15]
B
Like, people always make fun of me. I have it in the green room. I have my, my large gallon, okay, gallon glass water. And if I don't carry that around, I'm not gonna drink water today.
- [40:28]
A
Right.
- [40:29]
B
It's just me. It's just the way my brain works. If I don't have the accountability that's interesting, then I don't achieve the things I wanna achieve. And then at the end of the night, I'm working to quiet that sensor voice that's going, you ain't worth shit. You didn't do this and you didn't do that and you didn't accomplish that and you didn't drink water and you didn't go to the Gym. And you didn't, you know. I know. And sometimes because I'm so aware of that battle. That's spiritual warfare. You could call it that. I'm in with that voice.
- [40:59]
A
Yeah.
- [41:00]
B
I have to set myself up for success because if I don't, then I'm doing the work of the world. I'm doing the work of the, like, antagonistic forces. I refer to it because I'm a storyteller, you know, of like, oh, you, you're not enough. And how many times is the world going to feed us images or messages to tell us that we're not enough to make that voice louder.
- [41:30]
A
Yeah.
- [41:30]
B
And so that is a part of my battle. That is a part of my walk. I'm just aware of it. You know, there's no amount of therapy, which I believe in. There's no amount of therapy that's gonna make that voice completely go away. The volume can be turned down in seasons.
- [41:44]
A
Yeah.
- [41:44]
B
Or it can be turned up in seasons. But I have to do certain work.
- [41:50]
A
Yeah.
- [41:51]
B
Because especially as an actor, as an artist, you know, we're, we're. Sometimes there's seasons where it's like, okay, you're go, go, go, go, go, go, go. You're on the set, then you're in the interview, then you're doing a photo shoot, then you're doing this, you're doing that. Right. And your time is pulled from you and you feel like, oh, I'm crushing it, I'm great. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then there are seasons where it's like, oh, you're not on set. Oh, you're. And so the in between is where the battle is won or lost.
- [42:28]
A
So interesting.
- [42:29]
B
Because I can't be defined by the ups and downs of art. Right. Like, I can't be defined by that. And so in order to not be defined by that, I have to drive it myself.
- [42:45]
A
Is that something that you learn? Like your mom taught you, you observed it just showed up in your life one day?
- [42:54]
B
I would say it's been a part of my walk. It's, it's. I have a village of mentors, you know, who are artists that I'm constantly picking their brain and learning from. But I, I think it's been a lot of therapy. It's been a lot of self help books. Julia Cameron's the Artist Way.
- [43:15]
A
Yep. You know, I bought that book many times. Have you.
- [43:20]
B
Have you, have you.
- [43:21]
A
No, no, I've, like, I buy it and then I get all the things that. To do the things and then I don't do it.
- [43:28]
B
I come back to that book so often it is. I highly recommend it and I highly recommend it for all walks of life. It's not just about an artist in terms of like an actor or a writer or. Her philosophy is essentially that we are all artists.
- [43:49]
A
Yeah.
- [43:50]
B
And there's creativity all around us. It doesn't matter if you're a surgeon, a construction worker, a dentist or an actor, you know, And I just love, you know, it's part of why I journal so much.
- [44:05]
A
Okay.
- [44:05]
B
My morning pages is something that I learned from that book.
- [44:09]
A
Right.
- [44:10]
B
That brain dump in the morning.
- [44:12]
A
Yeah.
- [44:12]
B
You know, if you're someone that struggles with anxiety or things like that, I find that just putting your thoughts on paper just helps you go, is that me or is that the 12 year old me in gym class?
- [44:30]
A
Right, right. Oh, yeah. I mean, that is like, I talk so much about that kind of parts work, you know, because I think in my therapy, my therapist is a trauma psychiatrist and I think so much of moving through the world with trauma, you know, and anybody. I mean, we all have trauma in different ways. Right. But it's sort of that thing is, is that being present to recognize which version of me is here.
- [44:58]
B
Yes.
- [44:58]
A
You know, which version of me just felt that and untangle it so much. This. I think the last two years I have spent a lot of time and work of just recognizing what am I untangling.
- [45:12]
B
Yes.
- [45:13]
A
I don't even untangle it somehow. Just identifying for me. I do it all the. Everything gets a color and I make a jumble mess on the page.
- [45:23]
B
I love that.
- [45:23]
A
And then each color has an arrow come out of it. And then I'm sort of like, it's this person, this person, this issue, this issue. And I leave it and just that the being present to recognize because I think what so often happens is that our channels get crossed. It gets confusing. Right. It's confusing for whatever is inside here to sort of recognize, Is this the 12 year old or is this me.
- [45:51]
B
In present time or is it an Instagram comment that someone left?
- [45:55]
A
Cheryl. Oh, please. Oh my God. I'm always joking. I'm like, if my draft's ever leaked, you know. But you know, it's interesting because I want to go back to something for a second because I. I've never thought about this before, which is, I wonder at what point in history we started having the negative voice because we all have it. And so it's like, did Adam and Eve, if you believe in Adam and Eve, like, did they have the negative voice? Did the cave people have negative voice? Like where. How did that come about? Like culture and cognition and just the evolution of that. Because how does it.
- [46:32]
B
Consciousness? Yeah, yeah. Like we're being self conscious, right? To me, I don't have the answer to that question. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm gonna go home and research it. But I do think there is something to be said about the invention of mirrors.
- [46:48]
A
Uh huh. Yeah.
- [46:49]
B
You know, like staring at yourself in a lake is one thing.
- [46:52]
A
Right.
- [46:53]
B
But the amount of image that we take in, the amount of like being that self conscious, you know, we see ourselves in selfies, you know, we see ourselves on cameras. We see ourselves through other people's eyes. You know, I don't think we've evolved enough to take in that much image of ourselves. You know, it's centering the. It's centering things that are not actually of value.
- [47:25]
A
Right.
- [47:26]
B
I mean, think about it. It's like you've got all of the. We're in the age of followers or being followed. We're in the age of like, you know, hearts, meaning something.
- [47:41]
A
Exactly.
- [47:41]
B
We're in the age of folks going. Anyone can, can go on a picture and say, oh, they've got this. Or they need to go and get this. Or they did this. Or like just. It's, it's. It's not all progress is improvement.
- [47:57]
A
No. God, you can say that again. I mean it is. It's very interesting. And we seem to just. We seem to just repeat this pattern too. Like, I mean, that's what I see with AI of just didn't. We just did this with the Internet. We just did this in the last like 30 years. We did this with the Internet, you know, and so here we go again. You know, it's just kind of the. And, and, and what's hard is that.
- [48:25]
C
With multi view from Xfinity, you can watch up to four football games at once, which can lead to some tough choices.
- [48:30]
A
French toast nibblers or breakfast nachos. Actually, I was thinking about heading out only because I want to beat the traffic. The best part of the sleepovers. The next day I was gonna throw.
- [48:37]
B
The games on Bobby Big Wheels.
- [48:39]
A
I mean, how can you call yourself.
- [48:40]
B
A sports fan without Xfinity?
- [48:42]
A
We got the multi view best college.
- [48:44]
B
And pro games all in one place. I'm not going anywhere.
- [48:47]
C
This is how football was meant to be watched. Xfinity. Imagine that. Restrictions apply. MultiView requires Xfinity 4K capable TV box.
- [48:55]
A
Within all of it is, you know, you're talking about creativity and being a Creat within all of it is a creation, it's an expansion, but it just. We fucking get in the way as humans. Like our, you know, the human condition just kind of comes in and.
- [49:12]
B
Well, yeah, it's almost like the. But the core things that we are struggling with, we always struggle with just in different.
- [49:21]
A
Yeah.
- [49:22]
B
Formation. Right. Like in different ways and so. But yet, going back to your question before, though, like this sensor, it's a beautiful thing to be aware of it. It's a beautiful thing because regardless of where we are in our walk of life, you know, it could be something your parents said to you or a limitation a teacher put put on you or the person who broke your heart.
- [49:49]
A
Yeah.
- [49:50]
B
You know, or all three.
- [49:51]
A
Right.
- [49:52]
B
Likely.
- [49:53]
A
Yeah.
- [49:53]
B
You know, yeah. And are we actually walking in our own walk, or are we just operating as a ghost of what people have said about us?
- [50:06]
A
Yeah, I did this. I took this course a decade or two or whatever, and they had us write down all the things that our negative voice was saying. Like, they put us in these small groups, and you had to sit, and I was like, oh, this is so fucking easy. Da, da, da. And then we had to read it out loud to the group. And that was a very interesting experience of recognizing how mean my voice was. And, like, I would never be that mean to someone else, you know, so.
- [50:40]
B
Oh, that's powerful.
- [50:41]
A
Yeah. Also the. The. The feeling of shame that I remember, I remember exactly, like, where I was sitting in that moment of, you know, oh, I have to say this out loud to other people that are strangers and, you know, that whole thing. And so it's just a. I don't know what purpose it serves. You know, it's like so many of the shitty things that happen in the world happen because of suffering, because people are suffering. And so much of that suffering comes from we're punishing ourselves.
- [51:12]
B
Like, Brene Brown talks about being shame resilient.
- [51:14]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know. She's amazing. All her. All her work.
- [51:18]
B
All of her work.
- [51:19]
A
I know. Like, she really cracked open the conversation.
- [51:24]
B
I think, for everybody around vulnerability and shame.
- [51:27]
A
And shame. Exactly, exactly. It was such a. I wonder. I mean, sort of. Well, you have a young son, right? How old is your son?
- [51:34]
B
He's eight.
- [51:35]
A
Eight. So, I mean, he's sort of born into a world where that's already part of the conversation. Is that. Do you feel like you see it. That's probably a hard thing to see a difference in a kid of something like that, or.
- [51:49]
B
I, I see a difference in, you know, look, A number of ways in which I'm approaching things with him and holding space for things that I don't think generations prior to us were empowered or even aware of doing. I do try to raise him, discipline him, give him boundaries without shame. It's hard though, because where again, like, we're living in a world that you. You can't really protect them from it entirely. You can only give them the tools to be able to navigate it. That is one of the things that I love so much about being a parent is, you know, they say you're essentially parenting your own inner child, you know, and so being able to kind of go, oh, let me, let me tweak that in you. He's a perfectionist, okay. And I know that comes from me. I mean, that just has to be DNA. That just has to be genetics, you know.
- [53:00]
A
Well, your list.
- [53:03]
B
But like being so harsh on yourself and the level of standard that you're holding yourself to on one hand, it's a beautiful thing because you can, you know, drive yourself. You'll be very ambitious and self motivated, which I am. I was never the person where my mom had to go, go learn your lines, go do this. Like, I was always going, oh, I gotta be the best. I want to be great. Like, you know, and I would get so much inspiration from athletes like Michael Jordan. You know, I love, love watching sports and watching basketball. And you know, I'm not that great at it myself, right?
- [53:41]
A
Oh, me either.
- [53:42]
B
But I love the way that, you know, I gain inspiration from watching other people push themselves past their limits. And so I watch my son. Cause he loves sports too. We watch it together and he plays it. And he's really good in math and he's really good in science. And to watch even now, I mean, he's in little League. I have to really help him understand that. Just ease into it, little man. Like, you're eight, you're not gonna hit a home run every time you go up. You know, and seeing how he beats himself up, you know, if he strikes out or. And trying to get him to self soothe and go, okay, there's a difference between having a standard for yourself and beating yourself up when you fail to meet that standard. You tried, you showed up, you gave it your best.
- [54:39]
A
Yeah.
- [54:39]
B
You know, right now we're reading this book by Michael Jordan called I Can't Accept Not Trying to. And it's such a great book because in it, you know, one of the things that he talks about is at least he tried. You know, there's moments when he failed. There's moments when he missed the shot, the game winning shot, but at least he tried. And to me, that is the approach I'm trying to take with Hunter is going. Cause I don't actually have to push him. I don't. He's not one of those kids where you gotta go, all right, you gotta do this. He's very self motivated. He'll go outside and practice and.
- [55:16]
A
Well, like you were as a kid, like you just said, you know, learning. You didn't. Nobody had to tell you to learn your lines, right?
- [55:22]
B
Yeah. And what I have to help him understand earlier than I did is how to be kind to yourself. Because that is something that I'm still working on, you know, same. And I don't want him to struggle in the way that I have.
- [55:37]
A
Does he want to, like, do you see him having been bitten by the acting bug at all?
- [55:43]
B
Girl, here's the thing, you know, it's like I gave birth to him nine days after wrapping season two of Underground.
- [55:52]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [55:53]
B
I was running in the woods most of my pregnancy, you know, and so he has literally grown up on sets, you know, and obviously the situation's complicated. We're co parenting 50, 50, you know, time split. But I really try to bring him everywhere with me so that he can experience that. So, yeah, he's sitting behind the monitor watching scenes that he can watch, you know.
- [56:19]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [56:20]
B
And falling in love. I'm seeing it. Falling in love with the magic of storytelling.
- [56:26]
A
Yeah.
- [56:28]
B
I have told him he cannot really do it now, you know, but he does anytime we're on set. Mommy, can I be in the seat? You know, and so now the directors, they fall in love with him. And there was a scene I did last year on Smoke, and I turn up, I'm like, why is Hunter in the background? I mean, you know, like, I get it, there's a playground there. But he had gone up to Kari, our director, and she put him in the scene. I'm like, you know, so there's a big chance that he could fall in it, but I wouldn't allow him to do it on a professional level.
- [57:07]
A
Now do you look at your upbringing and sort of there's things that you wished you had experienced as not an actor like, that you missed out on. And that feels.
- [57:20]
B
I think it's less about what I didn't experience. Cause I do feel that I had a very full childhood, while I didn't have a conventional childhood of, look, I had set school and I had home school.
- [57:31]
A
You didn't go to a prom or.
- [57:32]
B
I went to my best friend's prom. Okay. You know, like, it wasn't my prom, but I.
- [57:37]
A
But you didn't have yearbook pictures. No. So.
- [57:39]
B
No, I. I don't really feel like I missed out on things. It's actually things I was exposed to. Okay. That makes me be very protective of him and not want him to experience certain things.
- [57:57]
A
And when you do, you mean set behavior exposed or content of materials that you're set behavior.
- [58:05]
B
I would say, you know, if you put a child in an adult environment, there inevitably there. There will be things that they are exposed to prematurely. And just being frank, I was, you know, and look, my mom. I give her credit, she was very protective. Mama bear. There was no dollar sign that they could put on a check that would make her sell her integrity. But still, you're. You're in an adult environment.
- [58:37]
A
Yeah. You know, whether it's jokes or Sensitive. Too energetically sensitive.
- [58:42]
B
And so I. I'm an empath.
- [58:44]
A
Exactly. And I think that sometimes can be really complicated for kids because they're picking up on things that adults that they know they're not supposed to say out loud or do, but they're thinking it's.
- [58:58]
B
And also, people sometimes forgot I was a child.
- [59:02]
A
Right, Right.
- [59:03]
B
Just being frank because I was mature.
- [59:06]
A
Right.
- [59:06]
B
And I. I was able to have a conversation with them.
- [59:10]
A
I was. I was slightly similar of just. I always got along with adults.
- [59:15]
B
Yeah.
- [59:15]
A
I could have these adult conversations. And so, yeah, I think there. There becomes that blurring.
- [59:20]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And then also, just unfortunately, I think we've gotten. We've made progress in the industry, but in terms of things, I was either exposed to or certain levels of, like, certain harassment or just the feedback from casting directors about your appearance or your craft or your instrument. Like, all those things are things I wouldn't want him to experience.
- [59:53]
A
Right.
- [59:53]
B
You know, like, it's. It's made me who I am, and it's made me very resilient, you know, but it has contributed to the sensor.
- [60:03]
A
Yeah. You know, fucking sensor.
- [60:05]
B
That sensor voice. You know, it's like I. Sometimes I'm like, wait, is that. Was that the. Was that me or is that the agent I had when I was 11 years old who said, I'll never be. Oh, yeah.
- [60:18]
A
Oh, I had a. I had a drama teacher who told me, like, I'm better on the other side of the footlights, like, rather than trying to be on stage.
- [60:27]
B
And don't you remember the negative things that someone has said about you more than the Positive things.
- [60:33]
A
Yeah, of course. Again, it's. I don't know if it's a self protective mode in a way of just that, that sense of I think we do feel, or I should say, I, I feel, you know, I can take constructive criticism sometimes, but I think when someone is really critical, you feel it and so you don't ever want to experience that again. And maybe that's. I don't fucking know. I don't know. It's hard, it's. But so did you, like, I know you've, you transformed your body with smoke, right? You put on 20 pounds of muscle, which is, that's like badass.
- [61:16]
B
Thank you.
- [61:17]
A
But have you felt like, were there ways that people talk to you about your body? Was that part of, you know, in the industry? Because they think that's. Yeah, Margaret Cho was talking about like that she, you know, that they were sort of telling her she needed to lose weight. And this thing's in playing herself on a show, you know, where it's like, but this is me, you know, some version of that.
- [61:41]
B
So, yes, I think it is, it's, it's a bit unfortunate because it, it comes from all different angles, you know, and, and sometimes it's an innocent comment, you know, but look, and I don't want to sit on my soapbox and pretend like I have a privileged life. Right. You know, I just do. I don't want to pretend like my life.
- [62:04]
A
But you've worked hard for it.
- [62:05]
B
Yes, yes, absolutely. But I think for sure, body image, all those sorts of things, comments are made to you about you, around you, you know, and you just have to have a very strong sense of self. Some people refer to this business as being the business of rejection. You know, it takes 95 no's to get one. Yes. Especially if you're not a type of.
- [62:35]
A
Uh huh.
- [62:36]
B
I've watched artists go from being really solid artists doing really solid work to falling for the trap, you know, that this industry has.
- [62:47]
A
Trap of fame or trap of the industry being different, like, or is it that one in the same.
- [62:53]
B
I think what I'm specifically referring to is the trap of being self conscious.
- [62:58]
A
Okay.
- [62:58]
B
That's death for an actor. Wow. You know, when you step on set, if you are, you know, you do all this work with your coaches or whatever your process is, but you do this work in order for it to all feel invisible the second you set on step. I mean, step on set.
- [63:21]
A
Yeah.
- [63:22]
B
And if you're worried about looking beautiful or worried about your angles or worried about that, you know, it's death. It's really death. And I've watched actors who. Who go from doing really solid work to becoming famous, and I'm going, ooh, yeah, it's changed.
- [63:44]
A
Yeah.
- [63:44]
B
Post, you know, and I. I get it. You know, like, when you're doing photo shoots, that's a different science. That's a different art. You know, if you and I are sitting here. Yeah.
- [63:56]
A
Like, let's get this writing right. Yeah. Okay.
- [63:59]
B
Let's get the lighting looking good. Okay. But if I am. If my job is to just communicate truth and bring a spirit to a character, I can't worry about any of this stuff. You know, is her hair looking the way her hair would look?
- [64:20]
A
Right.
- [64:21]
B
You know, like, is she wearing the level of makeup? I've done stuff where I'm like, there's no makeup in Lovecraft. Makeup was actually a part of Leti's armor.
- [64:31]
A
Yeah.
- [64:31]
B
She would put red lipstick on, and it was part of her fuck you. I know I look good. Like, it was a very intentional thing. And when she didn't have it on, it felt like, ooh, she's naked, she's vulnerable. What is this happening? You know, Interesting. And so I hope to never, you know, allow the sensor to become so powerful that it makes me change my process.
- [64:58]
A
Well, I'll come find you and tell.
- [64:59]
B
You, girl, please be like Journey. It changed.
- [65:03]
A
Okay, so what if. If, like, someone comes to you tomorrow and says you can do any project you want? Like, are you. Do you know what that would be? Aside from the one. The secret one?
- [65:15]
B
I mean, it would be the one.
- [65:16]
A
That would be okay, but next to that, you know, are you directing? Are you writing? Are you acting? Are you all three?
- [65:24]
B
Yes, yes, eventually, all three. And then part of my bucket list, honestly, is Broadway one day. Yeah. Wow.
- [65:34]
A
Okay. Do you have a sense of. Is there a show that you. That you. I want to revive this, or is it something new?
- [65:45]
B
I am staying open with what I'm manifesting.
- [65:49]
A
Okay.
- [65:51]
B
Yes, there are. But I'm also staying open to whatever comes.
- [65:57]
A
Yeah.
- [65:57]
B
Is the right one.
- [65:59]
A
So the. I could sit and talk to you for hours, but the last question that I always ask everybody is if there's something you are currently working on reclaiming in a very elastic sense. Okay.
- [66:13]
B
Without thinking too hard, the first thing that comes to mind is I'm really working on reclaiming the present, not living in the future or. Well, the future or the past, you know, and really embracing the in between the unknown and the radical act of finding my joy. Now. I feel like we're conditioned to go. When I get that, I'll be so happy. Or when I find that relationship, or when I can save up and buy that house, or when I can get this job promotion or when I can get pregnant or build a family. Like we are conditioned to go. Let me postpone my joy. Yeah, I don't actually have the right to experience joy right now because things are challenging and I'm really, really working on going. I'm aware of the challenges. Yeah. I'm aware that the world feels like it's going down and burning in a trash can right now. And how radical would it be for me to actually find joy now? And it can be in the bite of a really juicy peach or planting a garden or playing the piano. You know, I mean, whatever that is, a bath. I don't, you know, whatever that is like giving yourself the approval to go, I'm not gonna postpone my joy, and I'm not gonna put my life on hold. I love that everything's not perfect.
- [67:56]
A
Well, I think, especially in this country, it's very much about, you know, working. You know, I think about. I met a whole group of Australians when I was much younger and they were slightly older and had worked, taken a severance package, and now we're traveling the world and then they'd go back and they'd find a new job and work and then do the same. Whereas here it's very much like you do all these things until you retire. And then retirement is supposed to be when you enjoy the fruits of your labor. And yet, first of all, we never know when our time. So, you know, what's the point of that? And also, it does put us. I think it conditions us more for that cycle of what you're saying of that next thing, that where we are right now is not good enough to experience the joy.
- [68:48]
B
So I lost my dad when he was 58 years old. Oh, gosh. And we had been estranged for most of my childhood and reconnected when I was 26. He passed when I was 28.
- [69:01]
A
Oh, I'm sorry.
- [69:02]
B
And I just remember thinking, so much wasted time. We had a good solid two years prior to which I'm grateful for, and there was real healing in that. But such wasted time. And he had this philosophy that, oh, when they get older, they'll come and find me. And, you know, he was very much so a worker bee. And he had over 50 jobs in his entire life. Wow. And he blue collar worker, you know, I don't know that he ever made. He didn't he didn't ever make, you know, a lot of money. He worked for AT&T as a cable splicer. And honestly, I thought a lot about him recently of like, I don't want to go, oh, in the future is when I'll be happy, or in the future is when this will happen. I can. I'm alive now. Like you said, we don't know how much time we have. We don't know what the future holds. And it is such a gift to.
- [70:10]
A
Live in the present and hard, sometimes.
- [70:14]
B
Incredibly hard, especially for those of us who are conditioned to work hard and.
- [70:19]
A
Be ambitious, have loud sensors and to do lists. Yeah, exactly.
- [70:24]
B
Like, it's so audacious.
- [70:26]
A
Yeah.
- [70:27]
B
To find your joy now.
- [70:29]
A
The audacity of finding joy now.
- [70:31]
B
Come on. I love it. I love it. Come on. Good.
- [70:34]
A
This has been so amazing. Thank you.
- [70:37]
B
Thank you, Journey. Thank you.
- [70:40]
A
So great.
- [70:40]
B
You are such a joy. Oh, thanks.
- [70:42]
A
You too. I just, like, I can't wait to see everything you do. Just everything. Thank you. All the things, all the things.
- [70:50]
B
I. I received that. Thank you for that love and for lifting me up in that way.
- [70:56]
A
Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF media studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.