Krista Vernoff

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky

Guest: Krista Vernoff

Released: March 10, 2026 | Host: Monica Lewinsky | Producer: Wondery

---

Episode Overview

This episode of "Reclaiming" features a candid, deeply reflective, and often humorous conversation between Monica Lewinsky and acclaimed television writer/showrunner Krista Vernoff. While exploring Vernoff's storied career (notably on "Grey’s Anatomy" and "Charmed"), the two dive into topics of burnout, sobriety, generational trauma, the journey of reclaiming narratives, and the ongoing quest for wholeness over perfection.

The discussion weaves personal stories, cultural commentary, and practical wisdom, helping listeners reflect on their own paths of healing, creativity, and self-reclamation.

---

Major Topics & Key Discussion Points

1. Krista Vernoff’s Career Journey & Work-Life Balance

• Vernoff traces her years in television, sharing her timeline at "Grey’s Anatomy" (original writer, showrunner, and return to the show) and other projects ("Charmed", "Station 19", "Rebel").
• [03:09] On her schedule as a showrunner:
  “I only slept and worked and played with the kids sometimes. I did not have what one would call a life... I worked and I slept. I have to sleep or I can't function.”
• [03:32] Vernoff’s “recovery” from the relentless pace of network TV has included prioritizing nine to ten hours of sleep nightly, something she sees as a reclaiming of rest, not just sleep.
• [04:04] Differentiates between "rest" and "sleep," sharing that rest—true nervous system reset—often eluded her until she found surfing as a healthy, adrenaline-inducing release.

2. Burnout, Illness, & Listening to the Body

• [05:16–07:46] Vernoff describes a period of mysterious, chronic coughing, concern from colleagues, and a battery of tests that ultimately revealed no physical ailment.
• Remarkably, a pulmonologist advised her:
  "I just think you need to take some long walks and look for the hummingbirds... You're not walking, you're not breathing, you're not in awe, you're not looking at nature. You're not present. You have to do something different than what you're doing."
  — Krista Vernoff, [07:40]
• This advice became a metaphorical turning point for Vernoff in reclaiming her health through awe, presence, and being in nature.

3. The Healing Power of Awe

• [08:10–09:29] Vernoff shares research on how intentionally cultivating "awe" can serve as medicine for depression.
  "Awe is medicine for depression... They studied it on a group of depressed, lonely elderly people... it had the same effect as like an antidepressant."
  — Krista, [08:39]
• Surfing, for Vernoff, supplies both thrill and awe, helping exhaust her nervous system and replace the high-stress highs of TV production.

4. Personal Histories: Sobriety & Generational Trauma

• [19:50–30:34] The conversation shifts to Vernoff’s upbringing:
  • Grew up with a cocaine-dealer father in Los Angeles, experienced substance abuse from both parents, and began using herself at age 11.
  • Gained sobriety at 22 after recognizing drugs/alcohol had shifted from survival mechanisms to destructive problems.
  • On her family’s turnaround: “My mom quit drinking and modeled that for me... He [her dad] had turned himself around. My mom had turned it around. I had the modeling of people turning these patterns around.”
• [29:14] Discussion of "generational trauma," illustrated by scientific studies (e.g., the orange color and mice experiment) and personal family patterns.
• "We are cooked. This is cooked in." — Krista, [30:34]

5. Reclamation of Narrative & Public Perception

• [11:45–14:52] Vernoff offers Lewinsky a powerful tribute for having "alchemized" her public ordeal into healing for others:
  “You were hit with so much awful energy, and you survived, and you alchemized it into healing for others, and it moves me.” — Krista, [11:45]
• Lewinsky reflects on reclaiming her own story and the ongoing process of metabolizing the meaning and impact of her experiences.
• “But also, you did reclaim your narrative. You reclaimed your narrative. That's the name of your show.” — Krista, [14:24]

6. Women, Sex, Shame, and the Patriarchy

• [31:12–32:52] Vernoff tackles the myth that “women don't want, desire, and pursue sex at the same level men do,” connecting it to broader harms caused by patriarchy.
• They discuss how cultural narratives portray women as victims or temptresses, and men as default protagonists, noting how this dynamic shaped the treatment of Monica Lewinsky and remains a national pastime.
• "Our national pastime... is hating women who’ve stepped out of line." — Krista, [33:05]

7. Cultural Change: MeToo and Evolving Conversations

• [34:11–37:48] Especially since #MeToo, both discuss how the conversation around power, consent, and complicity has matured.
• Vernoff discusses her 2017 LA Times piece challenging Hollywood defenses of abusive men, using her experience as a showrunner to shine light on “old, shitty tropes.”
• “My job is to shine a light and point them out and rewrite them.” — Krista, [37:45]

8. Art, TV as Escape, and Representation

• Lewinsky describes how "Grey’s Anatomy" felt like companionship during her “dark decade,” emphasizing the importance of representation and escapism via television.
• Vernoff shares battles fought to tell progressive, woman-centered stories on TV.

9. On Wholeness Versus Perfection

• [43:00–45:43] They reflect on the “myth of the good person” and how striving for perfection—especially as women—comes at the expense of wholeness and honesty.
• “Are you a good person, or are you whole?” — Krista, [43:00]
• They discuss the challenges of apology and the importance of learning to sit in the aftermath of making mistakes.

10. Burnout, Illness, & Letting Go

• [49:40–59:16] Vernoff details her struggle in acknowledging and ultimately acting on burnout:
  • Physical symptoms (illness, weight gain, elevated liver numbers) forced her to confront her limits.
  • Discovered that frequent hair dye was causing liver toxicity—sharing this as an important warning to listeners.
  • Courageously left her coveted position at "Grey’s Anatomy" to reclaim her health.
  • “I’m a person who grew up on welfare... walking away from a great big contract with Disney... was excruciatingly difficult for me. And I felt like I had to do it to save my life.” — Krista, [55:19]

11. What Krista is Reclaiming Now

• [59:52–63:13] Vernoff is currently focused on reclaiming joy and regulating her nervous system, even utilizing anxiety medication—a practice she learned from her daughter’s example.
• “Now I have a factory setting of okay. And I have a factory setting of joy as a default state. And that is a huge reclaiming.” — Krista, [61:45]

12. Creative Life Beyond TV

• Vernoff discusses her debut novel "The Marriage of Alice Breyer", the healing power of storytelling, and her ongoing writing and production work.
• She shares excitement about pursuing projects that foster joy and manageable pace, signaling a shift toward sustainability and personal fulfillment.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On awe as medicine:
  "Awe is medicine for depression... intentionally put yourself in a state of awe on a daily basis." — Krista Vernoff, [08:39]

• On the pressure to be perfect:
  "There's this idea, I have to be perfect...are you or are you whole? Like all of us? Aren't we all just, yeah, fucked up too?" — Krista Vernoff, [43:00]

• On reclaiming narrative:
  "You reclaimed your narrative. That's the name of your show." — Krista Vernoff, [14:24]

• On learning from her daughter:
  "Sometimes you need your kid to show you...that’s not a normal level of anxiety." — Krista Vernoff, [62:34]

• On generational trauma:
  “We are cooked. This is cooked in.” — Krista Vernoff, [30:34]

• On the cost of not listening to the body:
  “You become used to feeling sick all the time.” — Krista Vernoff, [52:31]

---

Segment Timestamps

• 00:06–01:30: Coughing/health mystery; advice to seek awe & presence.
• 03:00–04:55: Showrunning "Grey's Anatomy", "Station 19", life balance, sleep/rest.
• 05:16–09:00: Physical burnout, journey through illness, discovering healing in mindfulness & awe.
• 19:50–30:34: Early life, substance use, family dynamics, sobriety, generational trauma.
• 31:12–33:48: Sexuality, patriarchy, gendered narratives in culture.
• 34:11–37:48: MeToo, Hollywood, rewriting cultural scripts.
• 49:40–59:16: Recognizing and acting on burnout, discovering hair dye illness, making hard career decisions.
• 59:52–63:13: What Vernoff is reclaiming now; importance of nervous system regulation and joy.

---

Overall Tone

The tone is warm, disarmingly honest, self-aware, and frequently laced with humor. There is a spirit of mutual respect, shared vulnerability, and a sense of generational reckoning.

---

Further Resources

• Krista’s novel: “The Marriage of Alice Breyer” [Sign up at kristavernoff.com for updates or early chapters].

---

By the end of the episode, listeners are left with a resonant message: reclaiming, whether of narrative, health, joy, or creativity, is a messy, ongoing, and ultimately human process—best done in community and punctuated by moments of awe.

Transcript

[Krista Vernoff]

I go in for the results and the doctor says, you have the lungs of a 30 year old swimmer. Are you an athlete? And I go, what? Like I haven't stopped coughing in four months? And he goes, you do not have asthma. You do not have any condition that I can diagnose. And I said, what do I do? And he goes, I swear to God, I just think you need to take some long walks and look for the hummingbirds.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, wow.

[Krista Vernoff]

You are not walking, you're not breathing, you're not in awe. You're not looking at nature. You're not present. You're not present. You have to do something different than what you're doing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more.

[Krista Vernoff]

More.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Grainger gets it and knows there's no

[Krista Vernoff]

time for managing multiple suppliers and no

[Monica Lewinsky]

room for shipping delays.

[Krista Vernoff]

That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So you can keep your facility stocked,

[Krista Vernoff]

safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Krista, welcome to Reclaiming.

[Krista Vernoff]

Oh, this is it. We're rolling.

[Monica Lewinsky]

We just. It's super, like, it's super. Okay. It's super chill here. We're super chill. It's conversational. There's like the opposite of gotcha.

[Krista Vernoff]

Thank you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Exactly. That's what you can do is just. Yeah, take, take a breath. Thank you. So, you know, you have had such an illustrious career, spending a large portion of it on Grey's Anatomy for how many seasons? Because you were.

[Krista Vernoff]

I was there for the first seven seasons and then I was gone for seven seasons and then I went back as the showrunner for six seasons.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my God.

[Krista Vernoff]

So I don't do math, but I think it's 13 years.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my gosh. That's. But I mean, you've also. Showrunner. What's the. What's the past Is showrun. Show ran.

[Krista Vernoff]

That's a good question.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. You were the showrunner.

[Krista Vernoff]

I was the showrunner.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You were the showrunner on many other shows and had worked on other shows. You'd worked on Charmed before, right?

[Krista Vernoff]

Yes, I did three years of Charmed.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. And then also did a little Law and Order and then in your. And Rebel, right?

[Krista Vernoff]

Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And then in your last. In the last. When you were show running. Showrunning. See, showrunning is show running. Yeah, showrunning works. But show ran, whatever. When you were the thing. For the Thing the last time at Grey's Anatomy, you were also then the showrunner for Station 19. At the same fucking time.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yes. And Rebel.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay. At the same time for one year,

[Krista Vernoff]

all three of them.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh my gosh. Okay. Did you sleep?

[Krista Vernoff]

I only slept. Like, I only slept and worked and played with the kids sometimes. I did not have what one would call a life. You know, like the, the younger generation say, like work, life, balance. And I worked, I worked and I slept. I have to sleep, right? I have to sleep or I can't function.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Like how long sleep? Are you an 8 hour sleeper? 10 hour?

[Krista Vernoff]

I mean 5 hour. I would prefer 10 hours of sleep a night. During those years I was maybe getting seven or eight. Yeah. But lately, in recovery from those years stage, which has been almost three years now, I've been sleeping nine or ten hours pretty standardly.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Good for you. Good for you. And I feel like the, the idea of looking at rest as a pillar of. Yes, there's always been sleep stuff and how do you sleep better and pay attention to your sleep, but that idea of rest actually being slightly different, I don't know. Does that make resonate with you?

[Krista Vernoff]

It's so wildly different and rest and sleep are so wildly different. And that's been. I've also had to learn about myself in the last few years that for me, rest, like, like just stop is not restful. Like just stop and rest is not restful. When your nervous system is as jacked as it has to be to work in television in general, just stop doesn't work. So what I did is I took up surfing. Okay. That gave me the terror and adrenaline and joy, the high highs and the low lows that I got running television shows, and it exhausted me so that I could rest.

[Monica Lewinsky]

How interesting. How did you just, did that just happen or did somebody kind of lead you to this idea of finding a healthy substitute?

[Krista Vernoff]

No, I. I had been surfing, like on vacation for maybe 10 years. I started in my, like around early 40s, I think. And then I left. When I, when it, when I left Grey's anatomy and Station 19 rebel had been canceled the year before, so I was down to running only the two network television shows.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Lazy.

[Krista Vernoff]

I know I had reached a point. I had reached a breaking point physically and, and, and emotionally to some degree. I was, I had just, just worn myself out. And I was having multiple physical mysteries, one of which was I coughed so hard for so many months that the three doctors who work in the writers room at Grey's Anatomy, Zoan Klak and Nasser Elazari and Michael Metzner all got together and came to me and said, you have to go see a pulmonologist. Krista, we've been watching you cough like this for, for months. You have to go see a pulmonologist. And I am. You know, the irony is I spent all these years of my life on Grey's Anatomy, therefore I'm terrified of doctors. Like, I'm just, it's. I'm so. I. But I, but I listened to them and I went to the pulmonologist and the pulmonologist said, well, maybe it's asthma. That went undiagnosed for five decades. Cause you grew up in LA and your dad was a smoker and we're going to do all these tests. I did a whole battery of breathing tests. And then I went back and I was so scared that my friend came with me and the doctor who was, who was like the best pulmonologist in la, and he was like an older guy and he was so lovely and I was so afraid of sort of this kind of western medicine, like, what's the diagnosis gonna be? And then how am I going to make myself sicker with the medicine and then die young? Like, you know what I mean? Like that's. My dad went to the hospital sick at 56 and was dead two weeks later. So there's fear. And, and so that I go in for the results and the doctor says, you have the lungs of a 30 year old swimmer. Are you an athlete? And I go, what? Like I haven't stopped coughing in four months. And he goes, you do not have asthma. You do not have any condition that I can diagnose. And I said, what do I do? And he goes, I swear to God, he goes, have you ever read about hummingbirds?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Krista Vernoff]

And I'm like, I have read a little bit about hummingbirds. I'm like thinking he's gonna start talking about the lungs of hummingbirds or some breathing exercise that's going to. And he goes, I just think you need to take some long walks and look for the hummingbirds.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, wow.

[Krista Vernoff]

And I was like, okay, this is my guides.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right?

[Krista Vernoff]

Right. Like this is one more way that I'm being told the solution for what is ailing you physically is not at this doctor's office, even the doctor is saying it. Yeah. You are not walking, you're not breathing, you're not, you're not in awe, you're not looking at nature. You're not present, you're not present. Your nervous system is fucked. You have to do something different than what you're doing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Krista Vernoff]

So that I was in that state, and when I. What I know is I wasn't coughing in the ocean. Like, I. I would go to Hawaii and I wasn't coughing in the ocean. I would get on a surfboard. I wasn't coughing on a surfboard. And I felt awe at the beauty of the world and what I. Neuro neuroscience became a bit of a hobby in the Grey's Anatomy years. And I would listen to these podcasts and I had learned that awe is medicine for depression.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, okay. Awe.

[Krista Vernoff]

Awe is medicine for depression. For depression. And that we are awe depri in our culture because we have let go of religion and spiritual practice and ritual. And so they suggested, and they studied it, that you intentionally put yourself in a state of awe on a daily basis, and they studied it on a group of depressed, lonely elderly people. And they would intentionally put themselves in a state of awe for 10 to 15 minutes a day by going on a walk and looking at something small and beautiful and then going in that same walk, shifting their focus to something large and beautiful, like the sky or the clouds. A flower, the sky or the clouds. And it had the same effect of, like, as like an antidepressant.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. Wow.

[Krista Vernoff]

So I took up surfing in that way because it puts me in a state of awe.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, interesting.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yeah. And also terror. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I was going to say I'm sort of like, I'm such a weird person in this way of. I love, like, my happy place is by the ocean, is at the beach. The sound of the water. My happy place is not in the water or on the water.

[Krista Vernoff]

Okay.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So the idea of surfing is like, yeah, no, thank you. No, thank you. No, thank you.

[Krista Vernoff]

I love it. I grew up in Venice beach, though. Boogie boarding. So getting tossed in the waves, that's like. That's what scares people. But for me, that's like a roller coaster.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right, Okay. I think, because, you know, I grew up in la, too, and so I remember actually being not at Venice, but Santa Monica Monica Beach. Basically the same thing. I don't even know where one ends and one begins, but whatever. And I got caught in a small undertow, you know, and my dad was right there to save me and all that. And.

[Krista Vernoff]

But.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But the fear of that and I think the enormity, that kind of feeling of almost like when you go in an airplane for the first time and. And you are. You're having the experience of the vastness of the sky, like in a feeling, it In a different way.

[Krista Vernoff]

Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And that's sort of the ocean to me.

[Krista Vernoff]

I want to tell you that everybody I told that I was doing your podcast, and I mean, everybody from my teenagers to, you know, just everybody always said the same words. She's so cool. Oh, she's so cool. Oh, that's so cool. She's so cool. And I just wanted to say that to you because you were tortured by our society and by our culture, and I was thinking, why is it that combination of words like, why is. Why does everyone say she's so cool? And I think it's because you're an alchemist. I think it's because in magic, alchemy is the coolest. It's the coolest magic. Right. Water to wine or hay to gold, and you were hit with so much awful energy, and you survived, and you alchemized it into healing for others, and it. It moves me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Thank you.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yeah. So you're so cool, and I'm so happy.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I'm so not cool, but I'm glad that that's what I. You know, and the alchemizing that is. I needed to hear that today, so thank you.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Thank you so much. That's really beautiful.

[Krista Vernoff]

I think you're amazing. I.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, just get to know me.

[Krista Vernoff]

I don't know you. I don't know you, but I did, like, I watched the whole 2018 docu series in preparation for this.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Krista Vernoff]

And I.

[Monica Lewinsky]

The Clinton affair.

[Krista Vernoff]

The Clinton affair. And I have to say, like, I'm in awe. I'm in awe of you. I'm in awe of how much came at you and how you survived and how you alchemized it into healing other people. I just think it makes you. I'll tell you what one of my favorite healers would say. She would say, because you ended that docu series, you said, I still face regret every day. I still meet regret every day. And I thought, oh, Linda would say to her, it's a reflection of the quality of your soul that you committed to embody this archetype for all of the women on the planet to be battered at that level and then to survive and to see it begin like you were the beginning of something that is still in process. But that takes. That takes just a. Just a tremendous spirit, just a tremendous soul to choose that lifetime. Just so much strength and.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Thank you.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, it's. I've. I've had people say versions of that, you know, to me at times, and I think that it is very hard to metabolize like in my dark decade and the deep healing work that I did, it was punctuated in some ways by these experiences that I had of just moments that I couldn't quite accept. You know, I didn't quite know how to do with at the. Like, what to do with. At the time when was my graduate school professor sort of telling me that, like, I had no narrative. I let the narrative run away. Like, the people in power owned my narrative, and that there has to. When power's involved, there has to be a competing narrative, otherwise, there's nothing. And I just sort of couldn't really take that in. And then my friend Anne had been meditating on a. On a pyramid in Mexico, as one does. And what had come to her was around that, because I had been in so many people's consciousness that when I shifted my consciousness, it would shift a little bit of theirs. And that was like, oh, yeah, no, I can't take that in either. Like, that's bonkers. And so it's.

[Krista Vernoff]

But also, you did reclaim your narrative. You reclaimed your narrative. That's the name of your show.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Exactly. And, you know, reclaiming. It's all the. Yes. And so. But I think those were. Those were moments in the process for me that, like, I couldn't take in. And then eventually, sort of, they, you know, they. They planted his seeds, and I think they. They grew a bit. And so I thank you for what you're saying. It's weird for me to take in.

[Krista Vernoff]

Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, so.

[Krista Vernoff]

Well, we're of the same generation. Yeah. So there. So I will say to you that the harm that was done to you, but was done to the collective. And then you reclaiming your narrative helped all of us go, oh, wait, wait. All of that was a lie. That was a lie. That was a lie. And it helped us reclaim our narrative. Like, I've been writing this novel, which

[Monica Lewinsky]

I know, the Marriage of Alice Breyer. I, like, obsessed. And I was like, wait, what? That's the end of the two chapters.

[Krista Vernoff]

What?

[Monica Lewinsky]

I need more. Give me more.

[Krista Vernoff]

I said to my husband, I don't think I gave her enough. Can I send. Can I send her six chapters? And he goes, you have to wait till she asks.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yes, please, please send them to me.

[Krista Vernoff]

Because you're. It's. Because there's a twist after six chapters, which you're waiting on.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, I'm waiting. I'm waiting already. After two, I'm sort of just like, there are certain. But you've just drawn these characters so beautifully that it's. I think, one Forgets, like, really good writing in very little time with a few amount of words can paint an entire lifetime for someone, like, you know, their whole lifetime. So it's just. I like Alison. Nathaniel. Okay, what's happening? Where are we going?

[Krista Vernoff]

I'm so excited. It means so much to me. You're the first person outside of my inner circle to read. And I. I also want to tell you, just on a personal level, that this invitation to come, to come to your podcast has been a part of the writing of this novel in the following way. I think I was invited onto your podcast nine or 10 months ago, and I was like, yes, I'll do it. And then your producer wrote and said, do you have anything you wish to promote on the podcast? Right. The prep questions. And I was like, I don't, but I will. Like, I was. I was in it, right? I was in the writing of Alice Breyer, and I thought about you, because Alice is. The logline of the novel is. Over the course of one extraordinary, magical day, Alice Briar wakes up to an entirely new reality. She goes down a rabbit hole. And everything she thinks she knows about her life, her children, the death of her father, the undoing of her mother, and the foundation of her marriage changes. And she embodies power she didn't know she had. And then I watched this docu series, and what a rabbit hole you went down, and you were forced down, and you have transform, transformed. And you have embodied power that you didn't know you had. And I said to my husband, I really, really want to announce this book and promote this book on Monica's podcast. And he was like, well, you're gonna have to postpone doing the podcast. So I postponed, I think, three times. I rescheduled and then frantically wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote. And the reason that's a gift is because I've been in TV for 25 years. You have a deadline. Like, they're shooting what you write. So you write it. You get it done. And I require a deadline. I require adrenaline to keep writing and a deadline. And your podcast and my desire to talk to you about this book was a huge driving force.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my God. Right? Come on. Reclaiming. You'll write a book.

[Krista Vernoff]

That's right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my gosh. Well, I am so flattered, and I'm so glad. And if you need to write another one, you can come back.

[Krista Vernoff]

Thank you. Thank you. I'm hoping it's a series.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So. Okay, yes. Please send me the next chapters, for sure.

[Krista Vernoff]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states with VRBoCare. Help is always ready before, during, and after your stay. We've planned for the plot twists, so support is always available because a great trip starts with peace of mind.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, it's interesting because you were saying about us being similar ages and as I was prepping for this and realized that you went to Boston University. That I almost went to Boston University and would have been in theater because I was gonna do costume design. Yes. So psychology major and costume design minor. And so you were in theater. I was like, we a hundred percent would have been friends.

[Krista Vernoff]

100%. Where did you end up going?

[Monica Lewinsky]

I went to Santa Monica City College for two years and then to Lewis and Clark in Portland, Oregon.

[Krista Vernoff]

I also lived in Portland, Oregon.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Krista Vernoff]

I moved there after I got sober.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, okay, so. So you got sober at 20?

[Krista Vernoff]

I got sober at 22.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Krista Vernoff]

And I moved to Portland at 23, I think. 23. 23, yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. Do you talk at all about the period that before that led you to sobriety? Is that.

[Krista Vernoff]

Sure, yeah, Yeah, I mean, I can talk about that. I was. I drank and did a lot of drugs between the ages of 11 and 22. Wow. 11. 11. My dad was a cocaine dealer in Los Angeles, and so there was a lot of access to a lot of drugs. And then I moved out of LA and I moved to upstate New York where there was just a lot of access socially to a lot of alcohol and my family. There was a lot of chaos and there was a lot of pain and there was a fair amount of abuse. And so my nervous system was jacked from a very young age. And alcohol and drugs came in like medicine for me. And I honestly think they're part of how I survived. And then they turn. And then they turn right. Like they are your medicine. You're self medicating. And then they become. And then they become the problem. And they had become the problem. And when they really became the problem is I had never done cocaine because my dad had bottomed out on crack in the 80s. He had gotten in the habit using his own products. And I had seen that deterioration. He was. He was just my favorite human. And so I had a. I had a line. Right. I had my line of like, what drugs I would do and what drugs I would not do. And I crossed that line when I was 22 and very quickly cocaine brought me to my knees. It just, I went from functioning and bartending and like a functionality 22 year old alcoholic to not, like, not okay. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I, I'm so impressed by your ability to sort of catch that and to be able and willing to stop. You know, I mean, like, that's a, I think it's my senses and I, I've had, you know, food issues, but I've never, I think my mom had told me, she was like, oh, I smoked pot in college once and I ate an entire chocolate cake. And I was like, that was all I needed to not smoke pot. Because I was like, ah, my weight, my weight, my weight. And so I just feel like the stories we hear are not. Drugs become a problem for someone, Alcohol and drugs become a problem and in a short period of time they get help and become sober.

[Krista Vernoff]

Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's. There's usually a longer Runway.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yes. I give my parents, ironically, a fair bit of the credit, and that is because they had a longer Runway. And I got to see where I was headed. My mom was an active alcoholic in my teenage years. My dad was an active drug addict. And so. And then in my early 20s, my mom quit drinking and modeled that for me. And. And so I was shocked to even discover that was a possibility. Oh, interesting. And also the first time I took myself to any kind of a meeting and said, I'm an alcoholic, I was like, young, I needed help. I was not okay. And nobody was saying, nobody was paying for therapy, nobody was getting me treatment. That was not in the vocabulary of my family or in the financial reality of my family or, well, or like. Also, my dad was making a lot of money dealing drugs, and it could have been in the financial reality, I imagine, but he was then putting that back up his nose and then he, you know what I mean? It was just like there was no adult. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Was that terrifying to kind of see your dad, it sounds like. Because it sounds like there was an evolution, right, of him going sort of like not being a drug addict to then taking his own products. Or do you only remember him as.

[Krista Vernoff]

I only remember my dad is a drug addict, but I adored him. He was, he was. I loved my dad and he was high all the time, but the drugs escalated. Okay. So his. The fun of someone who's high on weed versus someone who's high on crack are two very different dynamics. Okay. And I also want to say that My dad went through this journey and he also went to law school when he was 50. Wow. So. So, okay, interesting. He, you know, my dad died at 56. Yeah. But he had turned himself around. My mom had turned it around. I had the modeling of people turning. Turning these patterns around. And. And I was ambitious. I wanted. I wanted to. My dad had always wanted to be famous. He had always wanted to be. He was a. He became a cocaine dealer because he was a songwriter. He was a really beautiful songwriter. And he had a story that if he sold cocaine to famous pop stars, they would hear his songs.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay, that's kind of amazing.

[Krista Vernoff]

And that's how he would break in. That was. That was the. That was sort of what he had convinced himself.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But that's very Hollywood.

[Krista Vernoff]

It's very Hollywood. And by the way, there are people who. That's their backstory to some. I mean, it's not the craziest thing in the world, but it was pretty crazy, right?

[Monica Lewinsky]

I think outside of la, it probably sounds a little crazy, but not in la.

[Krista Vernoff]

Not in la, right? You come home and it's like very famous bands in the driveway. Like, I would come home in the seventh grade and. And it was like, I don't want to get sued. I'm not. Name it, but we won't. Very famous people in your house and in your driveway. Or like, you know, this very famous band jamming in your dad's office and you're like, what is happening? Wow. But I was being told that dad was a. I had been told that dad was a weed dealer. I'd been told that he was. And he had a big rant that he would go on about how marijuana should be legalized and how he was giving it. He was selling it to people who needed it for their cancer treatments and their nausea and their whatever. Like, he had whole stories about it that I, at 10, 11 years old, had bought into. And then I discovered when I was 11, cocaine. And I was very, very upset to discover cocaine. Right? There was a lot of stuff at that time, just say no, and a lot of practice, brain on drugs and all of that stuff. So I was like, really, like, going to talk to my dad about the. And I. I was sort of. He came out of his, like, office in a cloud of smoke and was like, what's up, babe? You know, my dad was like, hey. And I was like, I knew I had found cocaine in his. I dug in his pocket to get some money to go to the 711 and get a Slurpee and found cocaine And I'd also seen it on a scale in his office. So I was determined to confront him. And he was like, what's up? And I said, you told me that you sell weed, but I know what you're really doing. I know we are selling cocaine. And my dad goes, just like this, he goes, you're so smart. I knew you'd figure it out. Wow. I knew you'd figure it out. Your stepmom, she thought we could keep it from you. But I knew you would figure it out because I had just moved in with them. I was living with them for the first time. I knew you'd figure it out. But, babe, you can't tell anyone because I'll go to jail for, like, ever. You cannot tell anyone. You can talk to me about it, but you can't tell anyone. But it's only for a little while till I break in.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Krista Vernoff]

So this is the beginning of a really serious anxiety disorder. Yeah. And. Yeah, I mean, you lived through a thing you weren't supposed to tell anyone about either.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Exactly.

[Krista Vernoff]

It's not really okay to have to hold great big secrets in your nervous system.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's not.

[Krista Vernoff]

And so. And so what do you do at that age? You start doing. You start smoking weed and you start drinking the boxed wine in the closet and.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, secrets become a way of life, you know, and so I think that that's. That is so. It's so interesting. It's. I mean, painful, but what a kind of rich background.

[Krista Vernoff]

Well, it makes you a writer. Yeah, I did become a writer, you know, and. And I loved my dad. And. And it was. That's a parent and heart.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Like, you can feel it in how you talk about him. And that's a. It can be so hard to love somebody who's somehow not able to love themself.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, and I mean, not that we have to. Not that I'm looking to get into all the details, but did you ever come to understand his upbringing and his background of what would have led him to like, did that then all make sense to you? Especially now that we're talk about transgenerational trauma and all those things?

[Krista Vernoff]

That's a big theme in my book, is generational trauma. And yes, I do have an understanding of some of what my dad went through as a child. And what I have found fascinating is that I have unknowingly and unconsciously, I relived or recreated things that my dad went through as a child before I knew my dad went through them as a child. And I also have watched my daughter recreate some things that I went through without knowing that she was recreating. And like the way we repeat those patterns and the way they're wired into us. And the. Do you know about the. Do you know about the generational trauma and the. The study on mice with the color orange? Have you read that?

[Monica Lewinsky]

No, I haven't.

[Krista Vernoff]

They did a study with mice and they showed them the color orange. And every time they would show them orange, they would shock them, and then they. And then those mice had babies, and then the babies had babies. And two generations of mice later, when they would show them the color orange, they would jump. Wow. That's how cooked these patterns are into our DNA and into our nervous systems. And we are. We are cooked. This is cooked in. And so. And well, it's.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I mean, I think just sort of threading back, not to make the conversation about me, but threading back to something you were saying before too, about.

[Krista Vernoff]

I'm so happy to talk about you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I'm so not. But I think, like, you were talking about that, you know, what happened to me happened to the collective too, in that way of that. I think especially women our age. Gen X women, yes, were very much collateral damage of what happened. Whether it was cautionary tale or. Or just a sense of how do you find your identity? What is your identity look like? How do you. How do we find our sexuality?

[Krista Vernoff]

Are we allowed to like sex? Right? Are we allowed to like sex? And that is what one of the things. One of the things that one of the characters says in my. In my novel, okay, that it is the greatest. One of the cruelest myths that's been perpetrated on humanity is the idea that women don't want, desire, and pursue sex at the same level that men do. It has done damage to all of society because it paints women as victims and it paints men as perpetrators. If we're not supposed to want and desire sex as much as men do, and first of all, why would that be true? Just like if the species has to propagate and women have to be willing to make a human being in our bodies for nine months, why would we not be given drives that would lead us to pregnancy?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right?

[Krista Vernoff]

We have sex drives. We are allowed to like and want and desire sex. And we. We're still not, but we. But that is one of the shifts that has to take place, I believe. And when we talk about the truth trauma that happened to our whole generation because of the way you were treated by the fucking patriarchy, like, let's Just name what happened to you. All of these comedians that I so deeply admire, seeing the clips of how they spoke about you and what happened to you in that documentary was really painful and jarring. And I imagine you've received some apologies and not enough. Maybe not. I mean, for real, it's jarring. But at the time, the conversation was not about consent versus not consent.

[Monica Lewinsky]

No, no.

[Krista Vernoff]

The conversation was. You were over sexed. You liked sex too much. That was the.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I was somehow unattractive. But then also the temptress.

[Krista Vernoff]

Right, right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You were both.

[Krista Vernoff]

How do we slander her into full culpability and responsibility? So we can keep really admiring the man. And everybody look over here. Don't look at the man at the center of it. Don't look at the man at the center of it. Look at all the women. Let's blame them. Which is all we do. It's like our national pastime. We say it's baseball. It's not. It's hating women who've stepped out of line. And that is an addiction. That is a cultural spell that we're under that I think we have to break. And that you were at the beginning of the process of breaking it. But I will say at the time, we weren't. There wasn't a conversation about consent versus not consent. And now what we understand about power. Dynam.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I think that. And that's really where. I think where so much of the conversation has evolved is around power dynamics. And you wrote some very powerful pieces in 2017 and the years following around, you know, with the blossoming of the MeToo movement and Hollywood's sort of complicit. Hollywood being complicit.

[Krista Vernoff]

The culture of complicity.

[Monica Lewinsky]

The culture of complicity. Thank you. And I think that, you know, we were just starting to almost like origami or not origami. But the question. You remember that question thing as a kid, the open and this. It was sort of opening that way.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yes. Unfold.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Having all my Gen X memories in this episode. But the unfolding was consensual.

[Krista Vernoff]

And what wasn't right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I think empower. But you wrote in this piece, when I'm handed a bad script full of old tropes, falsehoods, and stereotypes, it's my job to take it away, note it, and when it's really bad, rewrite it. And I thought that that was a really interesting. Just a sort of interesting marrying of the cultural landscape and an expertise that you brought in.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So that was reflecting not only just the culture in Hollywood.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Being Another woman shining a light on aspects of what was happening, the way

[Krista Vernoff]

we talk about it. That piece was a piece that I wrote. I woke up one Saturday morning. My daughter was little then, but I was raising a daughter. And I opened the LA Times and there was a piece. And this was right on the heels of sort of the beginning of the MeToo movement. And I was hearing everybody saying all the things of like, well, if Gwyneth Paltrow was so, you know, why didn't she use her power sooner? As if she would have accrued any power if she had said something to her. Like, these lies, these cultural lies that we just say and no one notices, and they just become a part of the landscape of our minds and of our psyches. And we are all under. We're all under a spell. We're all into believing these things. And sometimes a spell breaks just by shining a light on it. And I read this article that was this series of defenses that Marty Singer, who is a famous attorney, had issued in defense of accusations against Brett Ratner of, like, watching while his friends raped girls he'd invited back to the house and offering background players upgrades in exchange for sex. And I didn't speak to those accusations because I couldn't speak to whether or not they had been committed. But what I spoke to were the blanket defenses that had been issued by Marty Singer. And I would read these in a million different articles that were like, well, that's an absurdity, but those are the lies. That's a L absurdity because the film was already shooting, so that doesn't make any sense. And also, this actress who said he assaulted her on the set, he has emails that came from her later with X's and O's in them, so that doesn't match. And I was like, you know what? Fuck it. I'm gonna talk about this. I'm gonna talk about it. I'm gonna talk about the fact that we do upgrade extras every single day. And that if I were to go to a background player on the set of Grey's Anatomy and say, hey, you can have a line that takes you from an $80 salary for the day to a 400 do salary per day, but you have to come to the bathroom and touch my genitals for that line, that's a bad fucking day at work for her, right? That's a crime. And yet the LA Times is publishing all of these just lies that I imagine they have to publish for legal reasons, right? This is a rebuttal, but that is what happened to You. That is what happened to you. We're gonna just dismiss reality. We're going to dismiss what the president did. Don't look over here. Don't look over here. This is. And we all go, oh, okay. All right. And I was like, nope, these are old, shitty tropes. And my job is to shine a light and point them out and rewrite them.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And you did with those pieces. And I think, you know, I'm curious about one of the things. And again, as I said in the beginning, I'm not going to make this all about Grey's Anatomy, but it holds a special place for me because I had. I. The show came out, and then I went to graduate school that fall in the uk, and so I was, like, busy thinking I was an intellectual and I only read articles and I don't watch TV anymore and, ooh la, Hollywood, blah, blah. I'm so smart. Look at me. And meanwhile, also having major imposter syndrome and not even being able to give a presentation in front of class. But another story, another time. I come back from graduate school and I am trying to find a job, and I begin what ends up being my dark decade. And I spent a lot of time watching Grey's Anatomy. And so the show and the characters kept me company a lot when things were really dark and I think I could escape into. And that's. I think that's the thing about binging shows, right? So at that time, it was before streaming, it was, you know, I bought all the DVDs, but. But, you know, I think that's the thing is, like, we get to know these characters so intimately, and the storylines become so important to us. We're able to escape our own lives. And so.

[Krista Vernoff]

And that show centered in those early years on an intern who fell in love with a married man. And even though she didn't know he was married when it started, she knew she was sleeping with him after she knew he was married. And our empathy and our sympathy was with her.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know what? I never even thought about it that way. I didn't watch the West Wings for decades. But I, you know, I didn't. I didn't, you know, think. I mean, I. I would have different thoughts, like, because in graduate school, we. We studied Hannah Arendt a lot, and she had had an affair with Heidegger. And it was like, nobody ever dismisses Hannah Arendt, you know, or you think Coco Chanel never dismissed. Nobody says, I'm not going to wear Chanel because she was a fucking mistress, you know, so. But I I didn't quite see it there. Grace Natomy. But yeah, yeah, so. So I think there is. I think that there is something. And. And the show. The show has for me always was at the forefront of cultural conversations. You know, showing on TV the things that people were maybe whispering about behind the scenes or conversations that wanted to peek through into the collective, but there wasn't space or language for it yet. And so I just think it's so interesting to, you know, to just see how all those aspects of you came into it. Even though I know Shonda created the show, you know, but the, you know, people who. People who lived and bled and Bret breathed for the show.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yeah. I mean, Shonda created it and fought like hell to allow, for example, the first scene of that show. Meredith has had a one night stand with a guy whose name she can't remember. Yeah, the fight. Do you have any idea how big a fight Shonda had to have to have that scene start a show at that time? You can imagine it now, now, though, in retrospect. So there was a. There was a groundwork laid and I got to jump in and play in that world. And I've often said I wasn't. Shonda is fucking brilliant and intimidating. And one of the gifts of my childhood is that I don't scare very easily because it was. You know what I think the line and I've said before is, I said to Shonda, you are scary, but you're not as scary as my mom. So I'm gonna fight with you about this. Cause I think you might be wrong. And she was like, so grateful to be fought with. And we had a hugely, hugely talented writing staff in the early years of that show. And so it was this beautiful collaborative effort. But the fights that Shonda fought early just. We just got to play in. In a world that was character driven. Yeah, that. Where women got to be flawed and whole, where. Where, you know, the men were given McNicknames and treated a little like sex objects. And the women had whole minds and whole hearts and whole talents and whole characters. That just was the beginning of something. It hadn't happened much.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, it's interesting. I had, I don't know if you know Elise Loonan. She's got a podcast called Pulling the Thread. And Elise wrote this book on Our Best Behavior. And then Elise and Courtney wrote the workbook Connected to it. Wholeness Over Goodness.

[Krista Vernoff]

That is a thing that I've been thinking about. So. So much as I write this novel is what I've Been calling the myth of the good person. I'm a good person.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Good woman.

[Krista Vernoff]

I'm a good. Oh, yeah. But, but I actually think this really harms men too. Ok, Good person and. Right. That's, that's, that is so repeated, so often repeated in our society. Well, I'm a good person. Well, does that mean then that the mistake that you made that caused other people a great deal of harm can't be named and can't be real and can't be remedied because you're a good person? We're all a whole person. I don't even think the goal should be. The goal should be that these parts of ourselves that we love and that we want to project out to the world get a little more airtime than the darker parts of our humanity. But we can't make it that way until we shine a light on the darkness. We have to shine the light on the darkness of our humanity and particularly women. There's this idea, I have to be perfect. I have to be perfect. I am a good person. I'm a good person. It tends to be said in a tiny voice because my nervous system is jacked for being a good person. And it's like, are you or are you whole? Like all of us? Aren't we all just, yeah, fucked up too? Aren't we just fucked up too? Can't we just be people who make mistakes and look at them and go, wow, I really shit the bed. I'm so sorry for the way that that hurt you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. I think it's the aftermath that we don't, I think that we often don't know how to be in. So the aftermath being the apology part being the part where we think about, okay, how did I rob someone of dignity and how do I make them whole again, you know, in those moments? Right? Because it is. And they go hand in hand. The ability to accept that we have these darker sides, our shadow sides, all of those others, and that we are going to fuck up.

[Krista Vernoff]

Up. Right?

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, so it's. I, I think that's. I, I've always felt really lucky that I don't have a problem like saying I'm sorry if I up, like, if I like, okay, it happens, it wasn't intentional.

[Krista Vernoff]

And it's, you know, so hard for people because they are told they have to be a good person and that means they have to be perfect. And then if they up, it means they're not lovable. Right? They're not lovable. They're not safe in the world. They can't. They aren't. Okay. And so then they have to make the fuck up someone else's fault and they can't apologize for it. And they'll turn on you if you've made them. You know, I read a quote that was like, some people are mad at you because they owe you an apology.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Oh, I know that one.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yeah. So I. I. Am I really this good person myth? I'm still working on dismantling the idea. I really think it's a myth. And I think that being a whole person that I love. Tell me the title again.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Choosing wholeness over goodness.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yeah. If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H VAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Do you feel like you'll go back to writing tv? Is that.

[Krista Vernoff]

I. I am writing. I am. I have a couple of projects in development. Okay. I. I needed a real break from network television show running and the schedule required. Right. That is a. It is. It is hard and it is fast and it is adrenalized and there are deadlines and the thing is airing next week and you're writing it this week and you're shooting it tomorrow. I mean. And I've had stuff air that shot, like, days before. You had to pick up scenes and rewrite stuff. And it's on the. You're, like running like you're in broadcast news. It's so high adrenaline. And I needed to downshift out of that. But I have a project that is a legal drama that I've been developing with a 24.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Krista Vernoff]

And I have developed. I'm not writing it, but as a producer, which I'm really excited about. A multicam sitcom.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Krista Vernoff]

That Carrie Lizer, who created the new adventures of Old Christine writing and Katie Seagal and Jane lynch are starring in.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my gosh. Okay.

[Krista Vernoff]

And that is set up in NBC. And I love it because Carrie's a genius. She's a comic genius. And I just get these scripts that I'm like, no notes. Like, it's. It's unreal to get. To just have an idea and then. And then have somebody else execute it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

That's a part of being A producer I like.

[Krista Vernoff]

Very exciting. The multicam world is. Is one that I, when I very first wanted to be a TV writer, all of my early specs were multicams. Friends mad about you. Just shoot me. And so. And then I ended up in hour long. But so this is a joyful full circle thing. And I've known Katie Seagal since I was 11 years old.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh my gosh.

[Krista Vernoff]

So it's very fun. But like, if my legal drama goes, that's like eight or 10 episodes, right? That's the.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I think, I think the world. I mean, is there. Are there any shows that have 22 episodes anymore?

[Krista Vernoff]

Well, there are some and there are definitely some Networks are bringing. Bringing those things back. They're trying, and I think it's great because then writers can make a living. But for me, right now, I'm not looking to run network TV because if we set up this legal show in streaming, it's a different schedule, it's a different calendar. I'm shocked to say it because I loved roller coasters my whole life, but something has shifted in my nervous system where I just want to reclaim peace as a bit of a birthright, like joy and the ability to relax. Yeah. I didn't have the ability to relax when I came off graze.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I'm sure. I'm sure. Yeah. I'm very intentional now. Like what I watch at night, you know, it's just sort of certain things. What I'll read. It just is.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So talk to me a bit about. I think it was 2023. Right. So around 2023 or 2022, when you realize, like, you were entering burnout.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And took all the right steps. Told Shonda. Right. A year in advance.

[Krista Vernoff]

Like, this is, this is the last year.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. How did you, you know, how did you, like, go through the internal process of recognizing that in your body, in your psychology, accepting it? What did that look like for you? Because so many people, you know, so many, many won't be in a financial position to be able to do something about it. But there are always ways to shift something. So it may not be completely leaving, but maybe it's getting a different job or whatever that might look like. So what did, what, how. What did burnout, that whole thing look and feel like for you?

[Krista Vernoff]

I would say that I was burned out way before I acknowledged it. So that's the first thing I want to say is like, like, it took a lot. I was really very physically ill. That's what, that's what, like that coughing story. But also Like, I had gained just a huge amount of weight in a short amount of time. My liver numbers were elevated, which is bananas, because I was raised in a vegetarian household. I've never been a meat eater, and I have been sober from alcohol and drugs for 32 years.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Krista Vernoff]

So why are my liver numbers elevated? I can tell you why. What it turns out out to be. Do you want to know?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yes.

[Krista Vernoff]

It was a mystery. I was poisoning myself with hair color. And that is a thing that I think is super important for. For. For a podcast that has a big viewership of women to hear is I was using hair dye on my scalp every three weeks because my hair, like yours, is thick and grows quickly. Yeah. And we are all under a collective spell where appearing youthful feels essential in order to keep working in this. Um, I was dyeing my hair all the time, and I was, like, doing the highlights every three to six months, but I was doing the roots every two to three weeks. And my doctor never said, what are you putting on your body? He kept saying, what are you drinking? What are you eating? And what I think, in retrospect, is that he thought I was lying about sobriety. People fall out of sobriety and they lie to their doctors all the time. Which is why at no point did he say, are there toxins in your home? What are you putting on your body?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Krista Vernoff]

And so I was having these days every two to three weeks. Now, in retrospect, you go, how did you not figure it out? But when you're working 80 to 100 hours a week, you don't figure it out. You're not connecting those dots. You're not in your body.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Krista Vernoff]

You're in your mind.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You're not allowing yourself to really consider what it would mean if there is a problem.

[Krista Vernoff]

You become used to feeling sick all the time. And I, even though I'm afraid of doctors, was going to doctors quite a bit, getting blood work and trying to figure out why I felt sick all the time. Because I felt sick all the time. And then there were a few days, once or twice a month, where I would feel so sick I would have to work from bed. That's what burnout looked like. And I thought it was burnout because nobody could find. They found that my liver numbers were escalated, were elevated, but nobody could. It was like, well, let's keep an eye on them. Just be careful what you drink and eat. And so that's one of the things that was happening.

[Monica Lewinsky]

How did you eventually get to hair dye? That hair dye was the problem?

[Krista Vernoff]

I just it's so funny. I just went and saw the Gray's writers for the first time in two and a half years this week. And I told them this story. The show was being honored. Grey's Anatomy and Station 19 were both being honored the same night by the Norman Lear center shortly after Norman Lear had died. And a lot of the writing staff of both shows were gonna go. And I was in Hawaii and I was like, I wanna go see everybody. And this feels like a really fun way to do it. So I'm gonna fly back and do this red carpet and this, see all the writers and be on the stage when the shows are honored. That's a real honor. And I wanna show up. And I flew back and I got my hair dyed. And when I woke up in the morning, I texted Joanne and I was like, I don't know what's wrong with me. I'm having a flare up of this autoimmune thing. I can't get out of bed. I can't make it. I can't make it. I was so sad. And I still didn't figure it out. And then there was another something. There was another red carpet that I was invited to a few months later. And I had had a. I always thought it was something I ate or something I drank or maybe it was the travel. Like maybe I flew home. I couldn't figure out what it was. Yeah, so I'd had a stomach flu and so I had eaten and drank nothing but water. And I had not just flown. And there was a red carpet and I had my hair dyed. And I could feel the poison come. I could feel it drop in. I felt it happen. And I turned to my husband and I was like, it's the hair dye. Like, it's the hair dye. I. It was such a sort of devastating revelation. Like I've been poisoning myself for years and not doing the math on that. And so I've told this story now to so many people privately. And every time one of the women is like. Or one of the men is like, I gotta tell my wife about this. She's sick all the time and she can't figure out why. I think this is a problem for a lot of people. And it's. And so that is one thing that I figured out. But. But also when your liver is fucked up like that. Like, my detox pathways were blocked. I was so inflamed. I would sit in a sauna and not sweat. The weight packs on. The weight is inflammation. It was like a whole systemic mess. So My nervous system was jacked. I was poisoning myself with hair dye. I often couldn't get out of bed, and I knew I had to stop. And then, and then Shonda said, will you stay and reinvent? Will you bring in a new class of interns? Will you please stay for one more year? And I thought. I thought, I can do one year, but I can't do two. And I had a feeling, actually, I said to her, I can do one year, but I think if I do two, I might die. Oh, my gosh. And she said, then do one. And so that was a hard negotiation because no studio wants to give you a one year deal, right? But I felt I was afraid I was gonna die. And then during that year, a writer that I came up with died. A writer that I came up with on Charmed, who had become a showrunner, Zach Estrin died running on the beach. And another writer that I came up with had a stroke. It was like these phone calls were coming in, and it became very real to me. Very frightening, very sad, very scary. And I was like, so then, of course, when your year is. When you've made a one year deal and the year is coming toward a close, there are a fair number of phone calls of, are you. Are. Are we re engaging? Are we. Are we going to have another conversation? Are we going to stay? And it just had to be. It just had to. It had to be a no. It had to be a no. And that's really hard to do in Hollywood. It's really hard. I heard you. I heard one of your podcasts where you're talking about the amount of money that you've walked away from in order to maintain some integrity, I had to walk away. I'm a person who grew up on welfare. Like, we. We got our clothes from free boxes on the street in Venice Beach. My mom would take us to the co op in Venice, and I would be wearing, like, overalls and she'd be putting handfuls of rice in my pockets. When I was little, little, like, we were poor and walking away from a great big contract with Disney and a job that is secure with people that you love on a show you love to write was excruciatingly difficult for me. And. And I felt like I had to do it to save my life. And so I did it. And by the way, Monica, I was surfing. I went to Hawaii and I was surfing, which is crazy. When I described the physical condition that I was in, the fact that I was going out and surfing, which is really hard.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, I. I mean, and I couldn't even get up on water skis, so I can't even imagine.

[Krista Vernoff]

And pushing and pushing and pushing myself. I needed. I. I could not just stop. I could not just rest. And then. And then sometimes life does for us what we can't do for ourselves. I fractured my tailbone surfing after a year.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, gosh.

[Krista Vernoff]

And so then I didn't surf for quite a while. And I've just started again because it's my most favorite thing. But I. But a little bit. Not three, five times. Right. Not every day. Like, I. A little bit bit. I'm like going out a little bit on really little waves and I feel better. And so I feel excited. I feel like, yes, I don't want to be totally done with Hollywood, but I don't ever want to be in such a state of physical decline and mental. Right. When you're physically declining, you're also mentally and emotionally declining when your liver isn't functioning.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Krista Vernoff]

You're not well on any level. It's all connected. Yeah. And so I. I had to leave a thing I loved and I really liked making all that money in exchange for well being. And it has taken me now, it's been almost three years. And now I feel well and hopeful and I have spiritual practices that are grounding. And I was able to walk into the writer's room and sit with them and see my friends and not feel like I failed somehow.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I feel like we. Gen X is like this transition generation of sort of going from a very different way of how women lived in the world to how we are now. And so failure is not something we're comfortable with. I think many of us grew up feeling like we could not fail.

[Krista Vernoff]

Right. The idea of failure as a part of the course of the creation of anything. Yeah. Is that's. It's a paradigm shift for me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. I always sort of like to know, is there something specific that you are working on reclaiming right now?

[Krista Vernoff]

It's so funny because I listen to your podcast all the time and I know that you ask that question. I am working on reclaiming nervous system work, polyvagal theory, working on reclaiming joy as a factory setting. I was talking to a psychiatrist not that long ago. I was giving myself permission to try an anxiety medication, which is a hard thing for me because I'm afraid of doctors and pills. Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Krista Vernoff]

And I was in a little bit of an argument with my dear, dear friend and I said, the psychiatrist was saying, can you explain your anxiety? Me anxiety to me? And I said, I was describing this. My friend is mad at me. This fight with my friend, and I really broke it down. And he said, okay, so your friend is. You were a little bit of a bull in China shop with your friend. And I said, yes. And he said, so our goal is to get to. Yeah, he's. He's irritated with me. Okay, okay. And I go, what? And he goes like, like, yeah, so what? He's my friend of 30 years. He's going to get over it. I can apologize. We're not perfect. Sometimes we step on toes. Okay, so what? And I go, sir, I do not have that factory setting. I do not have. So what? Someone's mad at me. So what? As a factory setting, I have reclaimed that. That medication gave me that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wow.

[Krista Vernoff]

That medication gave me that factory setting. So to understand that sometimes medication, sometimes your brain is wired for fear and you fear things all the time that, like healthy people don't fear.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, yeah.

[Krista Vernoff]

And that there's medicine that can treat it has been life changing for me. So now I have a factory setting of okay. And I have a factory setting of joy as a default state. And that is a huge reclaiming. It feels like a reclaiming. It feels like a claiming because I don't know that it's a thing I had ever before. And so, and so I will tell you that my daughter begged me. My daughter got on some meds a few years ago and she was like, mom, this isn't normal. Because she, when she had anxiety, I was like, honey, it's the family anxiety disorder. And then she got some medication and she was like, that's not a normal level of anxiety. It's not normal. You should let yourself have something. You should let yourself have some medications, Mom. You should let yourself have it. And it took years. And then I did, and then I could call my daughter and go, thank you for teaching me that. Thank you for being so brave. Thank you for facing. For not accepting that's the family anxiety disorder. Because our family, when Coco was tested, her anxiety was in the 97th percentile of teenagers tested. It's not a normal level of anxiety, but sometimes you need your kid to show you. And now she's like thriving. She's amazing. And she's. And she was a teacher for me in that. So that's a thing I'm claiming is like a quiet nervous system and the right to have it and to. And yeah. Yeah, that's my answer. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

This is so lovely. Thank you, Krista. I hope this re. Entry into. Into. I don't know, Media conversation, public conversation, let's call it. That feels gentle.

[Krista Vernoff]

It does feel gentle. And I want to say for anybody who wants to read my book, when it gets published, if they go to kristavernoff.com and type their email address in, then they will get like, I might end up, I'm self publishing the book. Okay, good for you. So I might end up putting out an early chapter or certainly people will get alerted when it's available for sale. And so that's the one thing. I'm so excited. It means so much to me that you liked those chapters. Oh, yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

No, no.

[Krista Vernoff]

Really good.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yes. Please send more.

[Krista Vernoff]

Yeah, okay.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Please send more. Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF Media studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffen. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez, Ren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.