Laura Brown & Kristina O'Neill

Summary

Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky

Episode: Laura Brown & Kristina O'Neill
Release Date: December 23, 2025
Host: Monica Lewinsky
Guests: Laura Brown & Christina Binkley

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Episode Overview

This lively and heartfelt episode of Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky delves into the experience of losing a job—specifically, the experience of being fired. Monica is joined by Laura Brown, former editor-in-chief of InStyle, and Christina Binkley, former editor at The Wall Street Journal Magazine, the co-authors of "All the Cool Girls Get Fired." Together, the trio unpacks the shame, stigma, and practical fallout of being publicly fired, offering reassurance, laughs, and tangible advice. They explore personal stories, cultural shifts in the meaning of success, and how reclaiming agency—often in community with others—can turn loss into transformation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Origin Story: Friendships and the Fashion World

• Monica, Laura, and Christina’s First Meetings
  • Monica recalls meeting Laura about ten years prior at a celebrity-filled event, immediately clicking as friends (01:24).
  • Laura and Christina narrate their iconic first meeting at the Marc Jacobs Fashion Show on September 10, 2001—one day before 9/11—a formative moment for their friendship and careers (04:27–07:01).
    • Notable moment: Laura, fresh from Sydney, recalls, “I was just like… not even drunk, just so, like... excited by New York and meeting Christina, and Christina’s first impression was I talked a lot and she was judging me. It’s still the same 24 years later.” (06:16)

Highs and Lows: Career Ascents and Impacts of Being Fired

• Working to the Top—and Out the Door
  • Both Laura and Christina recount their ascent from “the trenches” of fashion publishing to editor-in-chief roles at major magazines, and the different but equally abrupt ways they were let go (08:00–15:40).
    • Laura’s story includes being fired via a 20-minute warning Zoom by HR, before rallying her stunned team (08:00–12:00).
      • Laura: “Everything you’ve achieved is yours. Don’t let this take it away from you. Don’t give these people power over you.” (10:50)
    • Christina’s experience involved being summoned to the HR floor and immediately understanding her fate—“I said, I’ll be right back. I’m gonna go get fired.” (15:53)

The Shame and Stigma of Being Fired—And How to Overcome It

• Reframing Self-Worth After Job Loss
  • All three discuss the common, misplaced sense of shame after being fired—especially for women—and the prevailing myth that good work alone prevents dismissal (16:15–18:44).
    • Laura: “99.9% of the time, it has nothing to do with you. We are subject to billionaires playing checkers… Your company borrows you. They don’t own you.”
    • Monica: Candidly reflects on her own firing from the White House: “It was still that feeling of, you’re not good enough to be here… that shame, you’re not wanted here.” (19:45)
  • Laura emphasizes the importance of claiming your own achievements and not internalizing corporate decisions (13:32).
    • Quote: “Something being taken away from you doesn’t actually mean it’s not yours.” (12:41)

Turning Loss into Opportunity: Social Media, the Book, and Building Community

• From Instagram Post to Book Deal
  • Laura and Christina recall how a simple Instagram post—“All the cool girls get fired”—garnered an outpouring of stories and support that inspired their book (21:35–22:05).
    • Christina: “The combo of so many women responding to just using the word ‘fired’ in a post, with so much practical info I wish I had—how is there not a resource or book that just says what to do?” (23:14)
• The Book as Handbook and Hug
  • The duo prioritize both practical guidance—navigating COBRA, lawyers, and unemployment—and emotional reassurance. (24:35)
    • Christina: “It’s a handbook and a hug… The last thing you want to hear when you’re in it is ‘Oh, this will be the best thing that ever happened to you.’” (25:07)

The “Scarlet F” and Reclaiming Confidence Publicly

• Living with the “Scarlet F”
  • Both women discuss the feeling of being marked by public dismissals and the surprising comfort in discovering others aren’t as focused on your setbacks as you are (25:37–26:30).
    • Christina: “I felt like walking in the room, I was literally wearing a sweater with an F on it. And then… no one even cared.” (26:30)
  • Laura’s husband, Brandon, offers a metaphor:
    • Quote: “You’ve been unconsciously throwing out all these seeds your whole career... After all these years, you look around and there’s an orchard that’s grown for you.” (28:26)

Success Reimagined: High-Profile Stories and Cultural Lessons

• Famous Women, Same Feelings
  • The book features stories from Oprah, Katie Couric, Lisa Kudrow, Jamie Lee Curtis, Tarana Burke, Carol Burnett, and more—demonstrating that no one is immune from being fired, and the emotional journey is universal. (30:57–34:25)
    • Carol Burnett’s legendary reclaiming: Fired as a teenager from a theater usher job on Hollywood Blvd, her Walk of Fame star ended up at that very theater (32:19–33:46).
• Identity, Work, and the Loss of Agency
  • The group digs into the loss of identity that comes with job loss, especially when so much of self-worth is tied to work. (34:34–39:03)
    • Monica: “That feeling of… you start to wonder who you are and do you have value.”
  • Laura encourages examining what truly makes you happy—“math for your dreams”—using any pause afforded by unemployment as a time for self-inquiry. (37:08–39:03)

Humor, Practicality, and Moving Forward

• The Power of Gallows Humor and Community
  • Humor is framed as vital solidarity—“Humor is arm in arm.” (45:28)
  • The importance of community support, friendship, and mutual aid comes up repeatedly as a crucial buffer in hard times (55:27–56:52).
    • Christina: “The power of friendship to move you through—there were dark days, but having Laura as that resource changed everything.” (55:27)

Gender, Culture, and the New Narrative of Success

• Why Women's Stories Matter
  • The group highlights the lack of female “firing and comeback” stories in culture, compared to familiar male narratives like Steve Jobs or Michael Bloomberg (48:26–49:46).
    • Christina: “We think culturally we lack those stories… society doesn’t tell your daughter, ‘Look, she was fired, and now look at her.’ As Oprah says, ‘The setback is a setup.’” (49:46)
  • Workplace structures are still male-centric, and women’s career paths have been longer, harder, and often less rewarding for similar roles (50:22–51:54).

AI, Economic Shifts, and the Future of Work

• Adapting to Change
  • The conversation transitions to the ongoing impact of AI and job displacement, emphasizing that the book’s message will only become more important as the nature of work continues to be disrupted (51:54–54:13).
    • Story of a laid-off coder who discovers joy in making board games amidst precarious employment—a metaphor for keeping “the pilot light of a dream” alive even in tough times.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Laura Brown (on job loss):
  “Everything you’ve achieved is yours. Don’t let this take it away from you. Don’t give these people power over you.” [10:50]
• Christina Binkley (on being fired):
  “I said, I’ll be right back. I’m gonna go get fired. And their faces all fell…” [15:53]
• Monica Lewinsky (on stigma):
  “It was still that feeling of, ‘You’re not good enough to be here.’…that shame, you’re not wanted here.” [19:45]
• Laura Brown (on metaphor):
  “After all these years, you look around and there’s an orchard that’s grown for you and has grown because of your abilities and relationships…” [28:26]
• Oprah, as cited by Christina:
  “The setback is a setup.” [49:46]
• Carol Burnett’s reclaiming:
  Fired as an usher, later purposely put her Hollywood star in front of that very theater. [33:21–33:46]
• Laura Brown:
  “If I hadn’t been fired from the White House, I wouldn’t have ended up at the Pentagon and met Linda Tripp.” — her response that inspired Laura & Christina’s book project. [21:35–21:47]

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Timestamps for Segments

• 00:00–04:00: Opening, friendships, funny early memories
• 04:27–07:01: Laura & Christina meeting at Marc Jacobs on 9/10/01
• 08:00–15:40: Career climbs, dramatic firings, team leadership in crisis
• 16:15–19:45: Shame after firing, reframing the narrative
• 21:35–23:14: Social media post goes viral, beginning of their book
• 24:35–25:37: Book as “handbook and a hug,” responding to stigma
• 25:37–28:26: The “Scarlet F,” public perception vs. self-perception
• 28:26–32:17: Community support, orchard metaphor, career reinforcement
• 32:17–34:28: Famous women’s stories of resilience, Carol Burnett anecdote
• 34:34–39:03: Identity, loss, agency, “math for your dreams”
• 45:28–46:56: The vital role of humor and not lingering in past job wounds
• 48:26–51:54: Gender, differences in firings, cultural narratives
• 51:54–54:13: AI, economic change, and adaptability
• 55:18–56:52: The irreplaceable value of friendship and network
• 59:01–61:48: Letting go, reclaiming, and shifting from “happened to you” to “happened for you”
• 62:31–63:04: Wrapping thoughts on resilience, rejection, and community

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Takeaways and Actionable Insights

• You are not your job.
  Being fired—especially in today’s volatile landscape—almost never reflects personal failure. Your value is not pegged to your employer’s choices.
• Shame is pervasive but unhelpful.
  Don't carry the emotional burden of being dismissed—a business’s restructuring, botched leadership, and billionaires “playing checkers” are not your fault.
• Community is everything.
  Put your hand up and ask for support. “Find a fired friend.” The book itself is intended as that friend, part handbook, part hug.
• Practical advice helps.
  The book is packed with concrete steps—from how to negotiate severance to dealing with insurance, as well as emotional triage.
• Humor is solidarity.
  Laughing together at the absurdity and pain is vital to healing.
• Redefine success.
  Build your “orchard” over time—success is personal, nonlinear, and often happens outside traditional systems.
• Share your story.
  The more women talk openly about being fired and bouncing back, the more power they take from the stigma and pass it along as resilience.

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Final Reflections: Reclaiming Something More

Monica’s closing question (“What are you working on reclaiming?”) leads Laura and Christina to reflect:

• Letting go of ritualized obligations and fear of missing out.
• Reclaiming fulfillment, pride, and agency—“lemons to lemonade.” (59:31–61:24)
• Challenging the culture to move from seeing firing as failure to a moment of redirection—“changing it from this happened to you, to this happened for you.” (61:24–61:35)

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Episode Tone:
Candid, warm, sometimes irreverent and very funny—full of lived-in wisdom, empathy, and an acute understanding of what it means to start over.

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For anyone who's ever lost a job, felt stuck, or is navigating the shame of a career setback, this episode—and Laura and Christina’s book—offer humor, practical help, and the assurance that you’re not alone.

Transcript

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. I think being fired is one of the worst things that we fear. And so that sense of once the worst thing has happened and you're still standing, that you, you know, I mean, I feel that about my own experience, you then take that forward of, okay, the shitty things can happen and I can weather them. Yes. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Walden University. For over 50 years, Walden has helped working adults like you get the knowledge and skills to build the future you want and make a difference where it matters most. If you've been waiting for the right moment, well, this is it. Head to waldenu. Edu and take that first step. Laura and Christina, welcome to Reclaiming. Thank you so much. I am so fired up to talk about all the cool girls get fired. I'm sure no one else has said that to you yet.

[Laura Brown]

Thank you for adding to our brand.

[Christina Binkley]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So Laura, you and I met at. I think it was about 10 years ago, actually.

[Laura Brown]

Easily, easily.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. And it was at Cafe Carlisle. And what I couldn't remember is if we were watching Ellen coming perform or if it was Debbie Harry, if we'd all gone to see Debbie Harry.

[Laura Brown]

I think it was Debbie Harry because we're all on the same table with our old boss. Glenda Bailey was there too.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, you know Glenda?

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, we used to work for her. So we were at the same table and we just started going click, click, click, click, click, click.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I know.

[Laura Brown]

And that was. I mean. Yeah, it's gotta be almost even over a decade.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. And then I was thinking about too, that you, you know, when at InStyle, you've been a big part of my reclaiming story the last 10 years, kind of.

[Laura Brown]

It's been my pleasure.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Savannah Guthrie, like a safe person and a safe place to go where I know you're, you know, she's gonna do what she needs to do, but I'm never worried. Oh, there's gonna be a gotcha, you know, which is such a big thing.

[Laura Brown]

It was my pleasure and privilege, as you know.

[Christina Binkley]

Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And then really the last thing I'll say about you, but it's just that you still hold for me. I think of every wedding I've been to and even bride I've seen, like the most stunning. Right. Beautiful pink Maison Valentino. Right. Pink dress, pink veil, baby pockets. Oh, I forgot the pocket.

[Laura Brown]

Every wedding dress. Needs to have pockets.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my God.

[Laura Brown]

I could barely be restrained from putting my phone in there.

[Christina Binkley]

Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

In case someone needed to call me. Yes. No. You were one of our beloved wedding guests in Hawaii. Geez, like three and a half years ago now. We got fired Right after we got fired.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, you know, it was interesting because I wanted to come and would have come anyway, but it felt really sort of important to me of, you know, that sense of, okay, you've had this happen all of us, we all still love you, and we will show up. So show up that I'm gonna fucking fly to Kauai, man.

[Laura Brown]

You so showed up.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I so showed up. Tarana and I joked, actually, on the podcast when she was on. We were joking about. We booked our hotels too late. So we were at this too expensive, but kid hotel. Oh, yes, yes. So it was just sort of.

[Christina Binkley]

Oh, there's might have been there with our kids. Oh, okay.

[Monica Lewinsky]

No, no. But it was okay. There's a washer dryer in the room.

[Laura Brown]

I mean, that's fishermen, baby.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

Come on. Live in New York apartment. I'm like, there's a washer dryer.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yes. But it was pretty funny.

[Laura Brown]

It was really fun. And there's a picture, actually of you and I at the wedding. And for some, we're dancing or we're in conversation and both of our hair.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Is going like, oh, amazing.

[Laura Brown]

And it's the most. I mean, I think I've got to send it again. I think at the time, it's the most joyful, overstimulated that has ever existed.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But that is very on brand for Laura Brown.

[Laura Brown]

Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And Christina, I think we've met over the years through Laura. And that. That thing of when you're a friend of Laura's, you're just immediately you kind of go, oh, I don't. You know. Well, because it's a shortcut.

[Christina Binkley]

You know, someone's been better.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

[Christina Binkley]

They're good people.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right, Exactly. So. But it was interesting, I think, if I read correctly, that you two met at the Marc Jacobs Fashion Show, September 10, 2001.

[Laura Brown]

That's right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I was also there.

[Christina Binkley]

No way.

[Laura Brown]

Yes.

[Christina Binkley]

Oh, my God. Okay, now it's really in our. I know.

[Laura Brown]

Whoa. We have just. Do we get a pot of gold at the end of this rainbow? This is crazy.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I know. Isn't that bump? It was just. The whole thing was so. Oh, my God. I think it was. It became part of that. What do they call it? Snapshot or photo memory or something like an imprint, you know, of just that's part of the narrative for me.

[Laura Brown]

That is so. Because wasn't it just. And again, like, I'd been in New York from. I'd moved from Sydney six days before.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my gosh.

[Laura Brown]

And I was like, ah. Like, whoa, New York. Like, dazzle, dazzle. And maybe even, like, everything. Speaking of imprinting. And Christina was such a major imprint on her. She looked a major. But I remember just walking in, and my friend Libby Calloway, who was a fashion editor of the New York Post, had snuck me in.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wow.

[Laura Brown]

And I mean. And I was like. I had a champagne, and I was.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Like, oh, yeah, that's an entree.

[Laura Brown]

There's J.P. there's like, supermodels. Maybe I even. Maybe you'd even glimmered somewhere in my subconscious, because I was like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And. And it was the most sort of hedonistic, like, of its time thing. Right. And I remember going like, I've made it. I'm here in New York, you know, and then. And Libby. And it was like after the fashion show when they had. This was a fragrance launch. And I remember the. The walls pulled back, and it was.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Like, Oh, I think because it was at the pier. Right. Or on the Hudson.

[Laura Brown]

I remember the walls pulled back, and then there was, like, grapes everywhere.

[Christina Binkley]

There was like, a pool with camellias.

[Laura Brown]

There was things floating. And it was just like, this is. And I was like, this is the dream of New York City. And my friend Libby, we were walking past a grape table, as we refer to them, and Christina was sitting there. And Libby introduced me to Christina, and I was on fire again. I was just like. I wasn't even drunk or anything. I just was like. So, like. And as we like to say, Christina's first impression of me was that I talked a lot. And my first impression of her was that she was judging me. And 24 years later, this is exactly the same. It's exactly the same. And she had, like, glasses on, and.

[Christina Binkley]

She was just like, pre Lasik.

[Laura Brown]

Pre Lasik. Yeah. That was. Yeah, that was September. September 10, 2001. Yeah.

[Christina Binkley]

The night before the world changed forever.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I know.

[Christina Binkley]

I know.

[Laura Brown]

It's quite the origin story. I can't believe we're all there.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I know. So you both have been in the fashion industry for a long time, and. And sort of the starting story for your book coming. You were in Style, and you were at Wall Street Journal magazine.

[Laura Brown]

Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So both in Fashion.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah.

[Christina Binkley]

And then.

[Laura Brown]

And we both. Yeah. So do you want. I mean, we met where we Worked together. Yeah, yeah.

[Christina Binkley]

You know, become editors and chiefs. But between the Marc Jacobs show and basically getting those jobs, we, you know, worked in the trenches together at Harper's Bazaar for. I stayed there for 12 years. I think Laura was 11. 11, wow. So we overlapped there for about eight years and became very good friends during that period. And then when I left to become the editor of the magazine at the Wall street journal in 2012, Laura hung on for another couple years and then got the job at InStyle.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christina Binkley]

So we had really, like, you know, worked our way up the masthead to the very tippety top. And then I stayed at the Journal for a decade before I was fired, But Laura went first.

[Laura Brown]

I don't wanna brag. I was fired first. Yeah. So I was. Yeah, I started at Bazaar after Christina and left after. But I was hired at InStyle in August 2016. Okay. And not long after, I mean, I got hired that Trump was elected in November. And through my tenure. I don't know what you would say there. Yeah, yeah. We had three owners, but then it was Covid, and it was everything. So we were not in the office. And it was the most challenging time, but also the most. Especially through Covid, in a way. And, I mean, I think we did stories with you kind of during and after. I did two with you, and we did our best work. And I felt like, because the stakes were high and people were feeling vulnerable, and we were just trying to. I put Dr. Fauci on the damn cover. Like, we did this. These crazy stuff, trying to be there for people, you know, and so during which time. So we had these other owners. And then cut to February 2022, and I was working from home. Like, you know, that magazine was made on my dining table for, like, two and a half years. And. And I got a call from my lovely immediate boss, who I loved, and actually my husband, Brandon, and his name is Liz. And Brandon went bigger. She's all this. Becca goes, oh, Liz Vaccarello. This can't be good. Like, as a joke. And. But she was on with an HR lady. And God bless. Like, this is lovely. But there was someone with. And there was an HR lady with, like, this script. And there's always a script, you know, So I had 20 minutes notice that that was happening. And look, prior to that, I'd been a bit like, I want to do my own thing. And I was a bit like dog with a head out the window. You know, I wasn't. I knew I was going to do my Own thing, maybe at the end of the year. Did not think we were all going to get like canned in February. But then, so I got the 20 minute scoop and then, and, and then they called an all hands meeting, which is never good. It sounds like you're like doing Kumbaya, but you're just always getting fired. Yeah. And, and my whole team was on the Zoom. And then we're all let go that day. What I remember is I got everyone back on, like, after we were all like laid off. I was like, everyone back. Let's get back on this thing. Because everyone's in shock. Everyone's this, that. And I remember then saying some things that actually were the tenets of this book, which was, you earned all. Everything you've done, you've earned. You know, your value is yours. You know, everything you've achieved is yours. Don't let this take it away from you. Don't give these people power over you. You stand on that and you take it wherever you go. And I was very bullish and stubborn on that, especially for my little baby staffers who was their first job even, or ones who'd been there for 20 years and then spent a lot of time hr ing people. And then also receiving the craziest part about getting fired. And especially, look, we're fired in very public ways. We're fired in sort of press release y like terminated ways, you know. And do you have it framed?

[Monica Lewinsky]

I know now you should at least.

[Laura Brown]

Have it screen grabbed somewhere.

[Christina Binkley]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Laura Brown]

And I. And I just remember like going and sitting on my bed and. And just receiving this absolute deluge of texts and DMS from people in the business and people not in the business and. Yeah. And really beautiful, meaningful, lovely things from, from readers or. And I remember just at that time going, this is like reading beautiful eulogies about yourself, but you're still alive. Yeah, it's amazing, you know, so at the time, the shock is a whole thing and I'm sure we'll get into that. But it was just like, oh. And then you just, you just go. You go on remote. So Christina ended up being.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I have a quick question.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Want to hear yours too. So you were saying that when you were on the. When you got on the Zoom with your team after, where do you think that sense, like, part of you that just knew to take care of everybody, where do you think that came from?

[Laura Brown]

I think it's stubbornness because I think it was like, I knew we were good and I knew everyone was good and I Knew this was a decision that had nothing to do with our abilities and nothing to do with the magnificent product we'd put out for many years. Media is beyond challenged. It's, it's fickle. It's, you know, new owners. There's not like, there's not a lot of long game thinking in the media now. And, and that was what we were a victim of. And that's, that's perfectly fine, you know, but I, I was like, no, no, no. An ego. Ego on my, my behalf and ego on my team's behalf.

[Christina Binkley]

Okay.

[Laura Brown]

Because it was like, these guys, bless them, and their priorities are like whatever they are, you know what I mean? I don't share those priorities, but I have a, I do have a stubborn part of me that understands that we've all earned our stripes in some way. And because something's taken away from you doesn't actually mean it's not yours, if that makes sense. And so I, I had to do that. You know what I mean? It was, it was as statesmanlike as I'll ever be, but it was like I need to, I need to step up for them and I need to step up for my 24 year old assistant who was, it was her first and best job, you know what I mean? And I need her to know that. And, and I just, that was, There was no question. And also, like, we talk about this a bit, but like shock is like an armor. You know, shock sometimes distills the very things in you, but sometimes at its best that you need and you're like, no, no, no, no, we're doing this and I'm just going to show up.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, and I definitely.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Some of us might call that disassociation either way.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, exactly. But, you know, yeah, maybe I floated out of my own body, you know what I mean? But I do know that I needed to do that and it certainly helped in the short term.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And Christina, yours was very different, right?

[Christina Binkley]

Very different. Yeah, in the sense that I was one of one. So I definitely think I also floated out of my body, but I. Basically, the context of my firing was that there had been a regime change at the top of the masthead. So there was a new editor in chief at the Journal who started. Was announced in December, started in February. And you know, at the time, you know, the Journal is a very complex global news organization. We were dealing with a colleague who had been sort of unlawfully detained in Russia. You know, it was like she walked into a chaos, you know, a very chaotic newsroom and similar To Laura, you know, we had been putting out a great product, you know, making huge strides digitally. Had one of our best years ever, advertising wise. So when she started, I wasn't like, oh, gosh, like, I don't have time with her. You know, when am I going to get my moment? I was sort of like, you know what? We're really good at what we do. We're carrying this thing forward. We're just going from strength to strength. But February went by, and then March went by, and then April went by, and I did start to think it was a little odd. And so finally a meeting had been set, and I was due to sort of present my vision, or at least I thought I was presenting my vision and wanted to share all of our amazing accomplishments, but then sort of talk about the future. So my team and I had worked through a bunch of different decks and things to kind of brief her on 10 minutes before the meeting, I got an update on the location, and it moved from her office to the HR floor. So I knew. I knew in the 10 minutes. And, you know, then I was sort of standing around talking about a Kumbaya moment.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, seriously.

[Christina Binkley]

With my team.

[Laura Brown]

Kumbaya.

[Christina Binkley]

Here we are, you know, and they're all like, okay. And my assistant at the time, you know, very innocently sort of reports this room change in front of a group of people, right?

[Monica Lewinsky]

So who didn't, like, clearly, who didn't, like, clocked it, what that meant?

[Christina Binkley]

Literally, I said, I'll be right back. I'm gonna go get fired. And their faces all fell, and I was like, I knew. I knew in the 10 minutes. I obviously didn't know in the weeks leading up, again, because I think I sort of had convinced myself that we were doing good work. Well, it's. Sure.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I think the narrative so often around being fired is like, we assume we've done something wrong. And therefore the opposite of that is the assumption that if you keep doing well and doing the right thing, you won't get fired. Right.

[Laura Brown]

But this is where the big switches happen. And I think that, you know, with so number one, especially in October 2025, 99.9% of the time, it has nothing to do with you. We are subject to billionaires playing checkers. We are subject to the administration, to AI. And so what this whole book we've written is intended to address is the shame that women particularly tend to choose to bring on themselves and say this meant I found. No, you didn't. You're probably good at your job, too, but your company had to lay off 7,000 people this year. And you're in a budget line, and this has happened. And so what we're saying is. And like, we're saying what I did before with my team, and what we did was we both think about. You've got to remember that you are good and your work is good, and you own that work, and your company that you have worked for borrows you. Right. They don't own you. I mean, one of our experts in the book said you like a library book and all your knowledge is in this book, and they borrow you, but then if you are fired or if you leave or whatever, you're still the book, you know? And it's a total change of consciousness. And that's where, you know, you can't. It's hard enough. It's so shitty losing your job. The vulnerability that everyone feels number one at all. Different income strata, the same. The feeling is still the same.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Christina Binkley]

Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

Right. You know what I mean? And then, like, depending on your income, your freakouts are huge. You know what I mean? You're like, where's my money? Where's my health care? How many people have to take jobs because of health care? I mean, the majority of this country.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

And so all of this stuff is so bad that you have to. And you have to. You're feeling absolutely vulnerable and eroded, but you've still got a function, right? So you've got to deal with all of that. So why would you then take this big ball of shame and carry that around with you as well? It is absolutely useless and undermining. So that's, you know, that's the entire point of. In a weird way, intrinsically what we knew when we messaged, like, Christina had enough stubbornness and ego, in a way, to say to her team, I'm just gonna go get fired. Like, that's straightforwardness.

[Christina Binkley]

Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

You know what I mean? Because again, most of the time, nothing to do with you at all.

[Christina Binkley]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's interesting. I joked about this last night at your book party, and the one time I've been, like, properly fired, I guess I was transferred. So it was still. I consider it a firing, but I think it was everything but having to immediately panic about the financial situation. But for me, it was such a weird thing because on the one hand, so this is when I worked at the White House. And so, you know, in hindsight, I understood some of the reasons why I was transferred. Engaging in behavior that was, like, not ideal for. But interestingly, I mean, my counterpart, first of all, it was 1996. There was no fucking HR there. And in fact, that's really what is. What's really interesting when I think back to it is I'd say like the. I don't know what to call him. He was not the boss. Boss in Legislative affairs, but he sort of ran everything.

[Laura Brown]

Okay.

[Monica Lewinsky]

He was very plugged in. And he brought me to his office. I had no idea what was happening. And he was like, well, we think that you'll be better off at the Pentagon. And it's the Pentagon press office and it's a much sexier job. And a much sexier job and is a better fit for you. And I was like, but I don't want to leave. And you know, and the whole. It was really. And I was so. I mean, I was devastated. I think, unfortunately, my, you know, my emotional maturity, I was more devastated because of the personal relationship, a tiny part of it versus, you know, all those other things of what it meant. But it was still that, you know, it was still a, like that feeling of, you're not good enough to be here. Right. I think that's, you know, take onboarding that. Shame, you're not wanted here.

[Laura Brown]

But especially in that. Especially in that era, you know. And I mean, there was things. I mean, look, that was. I mean, I'm generalizing, but it was, you know, the economy was good and things were, you know, generally in like the mid late 90s, the change that we're going through now, you know what. So I can understand that. I can. I mean, we can both understand that. Oh, that must mean I'm not, you know, and it must mean I'm not. And. And, you know, for better or for worse, like, we've certainly come a long way since then. At least there's more empathy in the workplace now because there is so much change. But I gotta say, when Christine and I posted on Instagram that the first that became this book, which was in 2023 after she got fired, and we. And the Instagram said, all the cool girls get fired. And we. We were just watching these comments come. Come flowing in. And you, my dear girl, made us just about fall over laughing because you said. Actually, you can say what you said.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, I don't remember exactly.

[Laura Brown]

Okay, I'll see if I get it right. But if we do it, I think I have it. Yeah. It basically was like, if I hadn't been fired from the White House, I wouldn't have ended up at the Pentagon and met Linda Tripp.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, exactly.

[Laura Brown]

And we were like. And it Was. It was so good, but it just was like. And that your comment. And mixed with all of these others, that was like, oh, that happened to me too. Oh, they're actually saying it. That's what propelled us. Right. Kind of to this chair.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So it's like a really.

[Christina Binkley]

The next morning, I called her and I said, this is a book. Like, look at what, like, a nerve we have struck with this, you know, and this, at the time, was just Laura's Instagram community. This was pre collabing on Instagram, which is obviously, like.

[Laura Brown]

We were just collabing it out.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Like, so what was. I mean, what was that like for you? So you woke up the next morning and did you just immediately know? Did you have the thought and then question yourself?

[Christina Binkley]

I immediately knew. And, you know, at the time, I was three weeks into. Oh, my God. I was very fresh.

[Laura Brown]

Wow.

[Christina Binkley]

And so I was like, this was peak, kind of like Googling all the things that were, like, in this packet that they pushed at me, trying to, like, navigate, you know, the severance, the cobra.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my God.

[Christina Binkley]

Cobra, Cobra, Cobra alone. And so I had, like, a million tabs open up on my email, you know, on my. Wait, you draw Normally, no, but they were things that I was like, is.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Your inbox at zero, Christina? I might have to kick you.

[Laura Brown]

I want to get in there.

[Christina Binkley]

I get rid of. I'm not that person.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I. I've like, 10,000 let me in.

[Christina Binkley]

But it's just so much I didn't know, Right? So it was the combo of the fact that there were so many women who responded to the fact that we used the word fired in an Instagram post, combined with the fact that there was just so much practical information that I was really struggling to synthesize. And I just kept saying, how is there not, like, a resource or a book or a thing that just says, okay, do I need a lawyer? Here's what I need to know about hiring a lawyer. Like, is this too much for a lawyer? Is this not enough? What's contingency mean? Like, all of these things that ended up being this sort of, like, core to what we wrote all came from this, like, necessity of me literally having to barrage Laura with, like, a million questions a day. I'm, like, the same legal expert. What's this? Yeah. Like, what do I do about this? What do I do about that? And so, because Laura had been through it, she became this incredible resource. But not everyone has, like, a fired friend, which we highly recommend finding.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, now. Now, now they do. Right now you do if you put.

[Laura Brown]

They are there for you, but they're not gonna be there for you if you don't put your hand up. They can't grab it if they don't know.

[Christina Binkley]

Right.

[Laura Brown]

You know what I mean?

[Monica Lewinsky]

But also, I think in the book. In the book that you guys have created, you've now made this friend, this resource for someone you've created, the thing that you built.

[Christina Binkley]

Yeah. It's a handbook. And a hug is sort of how we define it, because 50% of it is just the basics. Like, here's what you need to know. Every state's different. There's no universal anything here. Much of that, plus these stories from these incredible women who opened up to us about what they had been through. And that really started from that post, just hearing from people about, like, the arcs of them getting fired. And the last thing you want to hear when you're in it is that, oh, this is going to be the best thing that ever happened to you.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, sh.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I know. I. I found myself recently of just like, a moment of again, Universe.

[Laura Brown]

Like, again.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay. All right. Here we go. But what I love, too, about what you guys kind of coined, that I read in my little excerpt last night at your party about the Scarlet F. Yep. And so I think that was pretty. Pretty fantastic and encompasses some of what you were saying before. Totally sums it up.

[Christina Binkley]

For us. I mean, we, again, got publicly fired. There were press releases put out, and then we sort of had to, like, keep going about our days. And in both instances, we sort of showed up almost immediately after we were told, you know, that we were no longer needed at public industry events. I felt like walking into that room, like, I literally felt like I was wearing a sweater that had a cuff on it. And I thought, everyone in the room is gonna turn their heads when I walk in. And, oh, God, I was so nervous and, you know, hands sweating and, like, walking into this thing. And then I walked in, and it was sort of like, oh, hey. Oh, hi. Like, And I was like, wait, is this all in my head? Like, no one. Yeah. Like, do these people even know? And it was such a great leveler of, like, it was just such a reminder that not everyone is preoccupied with what's going on with me.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah. And.

[Christina Binkley]

And.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But also, I think, reflective of, in some ways, what. You know. Right. Brandon has this whole.

[Laura Brown]

Oh, yeah. In terms of, like, moving forward. What? And with sort of. This sounds sort of Pollyanna in some ways, but if you're a good person and you do good Work over years, you, you build, you know, you build something. You build a platform on which you stand taller and taller, you know, throughout your career. But my husband, Brandon, famed. I'm a famed legal expert. He's a scientist and philosopher. But Brandon has said this to me, and this applies to everyone. He was saying, and this was as this, after we'd been fired, as this book was kind of germinating, he said, you've been sort of unconsciously throughout your career throwing out all these seeds. Right. Which we all do, you know, throwing out all these seeds. Da, da, da, da. No, not with a plan. I'm gonna throw a seed and Oprah's gonna catch it. No, just throwing out seeds. And he said, what's gonna happen, and what is happening is you're gonna look around now and there's an orchard that has grown for you and has grown because of your abilities and your relationships and all of those good things. And, and what we say is, it happens for everybody. And again, don't let yourself forget it. That's the biggest thing, obstacle you have to overcome. But you can look around after all these. And even if it's your first job, like my baby assistant, or even if you've been 30 years, all that work you've done doesn't go away. All those people who loved and respected you and did good stuff with you, they don't go away. And we found, and obviously we wrote a book and it's got famous ladies in it, but like, but, but all of these women that we've met along this way showed up for us when we needed and when we asked all the way through and not even as high profile as a book, just like, oh, this would be cool if you worked on this, or people asking us about projects and this and that and the other, because we'd been good.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

You know, and it's sometimes that simple. You can go into this sort of psychological wormhole about, like, rejection and this and that and the other. And it's all, you know, it's like, I just sort of Australian, but I sort of go, like, sometimes at its best, this country is, is you work hard, you're happy to be there, you show up, you will be rewarded. At its best. And I think that that's true of anyone. And, and so that, that certainly happened for us. And we encourage everyone. When you are the anvils on your head and you don't, you know, and you're. And you're kind of laid out to put up a little periscope, you know, and just be like, because people, you're going to get an influx anyway. And whether we're publicly fired or in the culture like you were or you worked at a Starbucks, whatever it is, if people know what happened and you're clear about that, they're going to want to help you. They're going to reach out to you and you've got to just keep up and you've got to listen to you, got to calibrate your body and your mental state and all those, how much you can actually handle at any given time. But it makes you feel better to have communication, to be out there a little bit. It ends up rebuilding you again.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Reclaiming is brought to you by Audible. You've probably heard me rave about Audible before, but with the holiday season approaching, I have to share how it's becoming my favorite festive companion. So picture this. You're wrapping gifts, baking cookies. In my case, try not to burn them or untangling those stubborn lights. Now imagine a little more magic in the moment. That's exactly what Audible is for me. Just yesterday I was decorating my home, which usually feels like it takes forever. But I was so captivated by this great holiday audiobook that I found myself looking to do more rather than just the minimum. And here's the best gift of all. As a member, you get access to thousands of included titles. We're talking about everything from classic holiday tales to cozy winter mysteries. It's like having a whole library of holiday entertainment right in your pocket. Making every seasonal task from addressing cards to prepping holiday meals, something to actually look forward to. Sign up for a free 30 day trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.com reclaiming that's audible.com reclaiming Talk to me a little about some of the well known people who are in the book. Cause there are some great, incredible people and incredible stories.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah. And we sort of very deliberately chose high profile, high achieving, sometimes extremely famous women because the idea is.

[Christina Binkley]

A lot.

[Laura Brown]

Of these women you never thought had a bad day. What do you mean? Oprah walks around in Maui with a basket of vegetables. Like this is, you know, this could never have happened to them.

[Christina Binkley]

Right.

[Laura Brown]

And the point is when they were fired, they felt just like us, just like our girl who's on the, on the couch. They didn't. Most of them were nowhere near, you know, the peaks they had now. So it's supposed to the choice of women is to reassure you there's a community out there and to sort of fire up your dreams. So yes, we Have Oprah Winfrey, Katie Couric, Micah Brzezinski, Tarana Burke, our friends who Tarana. If she had not gotten fired from Art, Sanctuary in Philadelphia would not have started. Me, too.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my gosh.

[Laura Brown]

Crazy things. Lisa Kudrow, Jamie Lee Curtis, these wonderful girls. Rebecca Quinn and Jen o', Connell, who got fired from Discovery and started a production company. Tracy Sherrod, who's an editor and writer, who has the most evolved relationship to work I've ever seen in my life. Sally Krawcheck, the banker. Angela Missoni and her daughter, Margarita Missoni, who got chucked out of their own family business. Oh, wow. Lindsay Colas, who's a sports agent who gets fired all the time. But you know what I mean, Just by clients coming and going. Carol Burnett.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my. Carol Burnett was.

[Laura Brown]

Fire Burnett. Can I tell you the story real quick? Is that so good?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yes, please.

[Laura Brown]

Carol Burnett, when she was a teenager, she was an usher. So she. Carol Burnett is 92 years old, okay? So in the 50s, she was an usher at a theater on Hollywood Boulevard. And she had the full little usher outfit, epaulettes, little cap, all that kind of stuff. And this was back in the day when movies would run in a loop so you'd have to catch or wait for the next one. And what was playing at the time was a Hitchcock, Strangers on a Train. And a couple comes in 10 minutes before the end of the movie, and she says. And they try to go in, and she goes, no, no, no, don't. Don't go in. You're gonna. You're gonna ruin the end of the movie. You gotta wait.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's Hitchcock.

[Laura Brown]

And while they got uppity and the man, they threw a bit of a fit, and they called over the manager and they said, this girl won't let us in the movie. And the manager, who. What did Carol say in her beautiful voice? Said, well, well, he was certifiable. And so the certifiable manager says, burnett, you're fired. Rips off her epaulettes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my God.

[Laura Brown]

And casts her out onto the street, onto Hollywood Boulevard, I think it is. And so she ended up. She got another job. She worked, you know, through comedy and achieved all these things she achieved. Cut to 25ish years later, when she's getting her star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, and she asks for the star to be placed directly at the front of that theater. You. Oh, my God. And I think that should go next.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Amazing.

[Laura Brown]

That should go next to Chef's Kiss in the dictionary.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I mean, that's a pretty fucking good reclaiming, actually. Gotta get Carol Burnett on here.

[Laura Brown]

No, but that sort of story. And I was also particularly moved by. I said to her, and this is all of these ways that women keep propelling themselves, you know what I mean? If they believe in their talent, if it's fate, if it's circumstance, if it's luck, if it's all of it, if it's loss. And I said to her, how did you keep believing that you were going to be okay? And she said, you know, I used to watch those Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland movies, and when the chips were down, they always put on a show.

[Christina Binkley]

Wow.

[Laura Brown]

When the chips are down, you don't have to put it on a show, but you can just believe you can, you know? Yeah, yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's interesting because I think what you're talking about connects so much to, I imagine, and you both have sort of said this, but that in so many of these instances, what happens is our identity is threatened. Right. I mean, that's the thing, is we are our own, our self identity of what our job is, who the people are that we're connected to that way. And so that feeling of like that all collapsing, like a stage set falling down, you know, or the Marc Jacobs show, doors opening. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, that thing of going away and you just start to wonder who you are and do you have value? I mean, I think that's. I think we've all had that. Whether you are fired is one way that can happen. But we'll have so many different instances where you. Where you start to feel that way.

[Laura Brown]

You have to look inside. I mean, you can speak to this, but you have to look inside yourself and sort of go, how much of myself did I give to this? You know what I mean? And was that healthy? And did I do so much of that because of obligation, because I felt I needed to? And how much of that, again, when you're shocked out of it, like a firing, how much of that did I really enjoy? How much really gave back to me? And oftentimes you might find that it didn't.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, I think that's so much of our culture and our world today, particularly in the States. I mean, in Australia. I remember when I was 19, I went on a Contiki tour.

[Laura Brown]

Hang on. A Kon Tiki tour.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Exactly. With a lot of Aussies.

[Laura Brown]

Okay.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And I was right. So I was 19 on this budget tour of Europe. On a bus.

[Laura Brown]

That's right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But it was. I met a lot of Australians then, and many of them had worked, taken a severance package and were now traveling.

[Laura Brown]

That's my people. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But it was something that really stayed with me because when you contrast that to the quote, unquote, American dream, where we're all. And I've been thinking about this personally so much about that thing of what's enough, where is that point? Because I have all the things of I will do this when, I will do this when. But I, I haven't quite defined the when and, and what happens. You know, if you don't make it that far, like you die unexpectedly or.

[Laura Brown]

You know, or you get done, then you really. You really.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

Got nothing to do.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You really don't get to.

[Laura Brown]

You can't. You can't hit up your action points.

[Christina Binkley]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But it's. There's. There is that sense. And so I. It is something that stayed with me around, you know, that we put so much time and so much of our identity into our jobs. And so both the. Either the firing that can happen or just that long way of how we live, we don't end up moving into a space where we're actually enjoying enough, you know.

[Christina Binkley]

But I think the silver lining, if you could say there's a silver lining in getting fired. Pewter is the pewter lining, you know, is that whatever you do next, you're granted this period where you. You do get to kind of sit for better or worse. You know, you do have the time to reflect on. Did that last job give you and fill you up in the ways that you want to be filled up, or was it a job that was, like, took more than it gave?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Laura Brown]

As I. I'm always sort of amazed by this advice. It's the. I think the most beautiful, empathetic piece of advice in our book comes from Ron Lieber, who's the youe Money Commerce for New York Times. And he said, again, income gives. Affords people more time and less time as we. As we want, than choice. But he said, everyone does have a beat if you're fired. And he said, when you have that beat, take a moment to think about what made you more happy or less happy over the course of your career. What can you do going forward to increase the happiness and decrease the unhappiness? Yeah. And we call it like math for your dreams. But it's like, even if it's a little thing that can seep into your brain when you've got to take the next job, that's necessary, you know, all so many of us have got to do that. But Even if you just let that feed into your brain a little bit, and it's like, what actually makes me happy? Or what would I. Is there something I want to make or create? And I know I've got to go work this 9 to 5, and I know I need the health care, but just. It makes you feel better. Well, it's causing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know what's so interesting to me? I'm sure others have said this to you too, but I'm listening to you and I'm thinking about how sort of how many different silos this information is. You know, it could be for a relationship, too.

[Laura Brown]

It's just like a breakfast.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So it's just really, anytime you have.

[Laura Brown]

That pause, anytime unexpected change and you feel like you've lost your agency.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Laura Brown]

You know, which is insane. So. So many ways and out of control.

[Christina Binkley]

Because it's like they've taken the control away from you. So then how do you rebuild that?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Christina Binkley]

And even if it is as simple as sort of making lists or, you know, talking to your friends about what you're thinking about doing next or, you know, and I think the more agency you can kind of regain. And we joke that, like, calling the cable company and like, negotiating your bill down by five bucks.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah.

[Christina Binkley]

Gives you that it, like, gets you on the path to like, taking a little bit back. And.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah.

[Christina Binkley]

You know, they've just ripped this thing from you when you're get. You know, when you're fired. And any ways that you can kind of show up for yourself where you're starting to just sort of build again is really important. And, you know, in the book, we have a ton of different, you know, ways you can do that to sort of start regaining.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Christina Binkley]

That feeling.

[Laura Brown]

I manage my day, I managed my budget. I managed something today.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Laura Brown]

And not everything feels overwhelming.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's interesting because somewhat connected to what you're talking about is why I started knitting in 1998, because I had nothing to show for myself every day. I wasn't doing any except getting in more trouble. But so that sense of, like, the sense of agency and the sense of accomplishment and, you know, so it's. It's interesting.

[Christina Binkley]

And I think that's something that we sort of talk about in the book as well, because there are plenty of people we know who only. Only identify and care about their jobs. And, you know, they don't travel, they don't have any interests outside of work. They don't read their job is.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's their only thing. Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

Especially our business. Right, right, right.

[Christina Binkley]

And you Know, so we're like knitting, reading, you know, any, like, activity, like, even exercising, it's just like getting a dog.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, yeah, but you just.

[Christina Binkley]

But it's very weird in our industry that people are all in and then when that job's taken away, like, they're all out.

[Laura Brown]

They're like, yeah, when you lose it, you lose it. Yeah. You know, because you've put it. You put all your. All your value on something that actually isn't even yours. Right.

[Christina Binkley]

Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

Especially in fashion.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Does it, like, looking back at those jobs, is there a part of you that thinks it's unreal? Like, it was an unrealistic bar even?

[Laura Brown]

I mean, you could.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Or that, like, it's ridiculous anybody even does it? No, I guess.

[Laura Brown]

No, I think it's less a bar than an unrealistic priority. I think a lot of. A lot of the things that you do need not be your priority and you become conditioned or if you let yourself. And thankfully, we always had a bit of a step out, you know, of that psychological sandbox. But there's just a lot of things that. That you. It's so ritualized. There's so many things you participate in that often you don't question. You know what I mean? So it's like, oh, I'm spending my time with that. I'm spending my time doing that. I'm spending my time advancing the goals of someone who is not me. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's interesting. I mean, I think I've been trying to find balance for myself of having had, like, that, you know, decade where I. I couldn't get. Nobody would hire me, I couldn't support myself, all of those things. And then, you know, my business, financial career opportunities changing as people's views of me changing and trying to get to a place where I feel like, okay, I can. I can have that balance. I don't. Something else will still be there if I say no, you know, of trying to balance again.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But no.

[Christina Binkley]

And I think that's the panic when you are re. Entering the workforce that you're sort of like, you've got to take the first opportunity because, like, another one might not come.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Christina Binkley]

And, you know, again, this is like.

[Laura Brown]

So many people have to.

[Christina Binkley]

Yeah, it depends on your, you know, financial position or your emotional, you know, whatever the sort of, you know, forces at play are. But I think we really do subscribe to that Johnny Appleseed thing where if people are starting to show up, they're going to continue to show up for you.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah.

[Christina Binkley]

And you know, that's why we really want women to not feel like they're wearing the scarlet F and to really get out there and talk about it. And that's why it's been so wonderful for us to sort of have these conversations with people about what it's like to go through, you know, such a shock and, you know, a jolt to your complete self worth and how they came back from it. And the more women talking about it, you know, we really believe, like, that's the audience that's gonna start lifting and carrying other women forward. I love it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

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[Christina Binkley]

Both.

[Monica Lewinsky]

First of all, you're both funny and the book is funny. And you talk about humor in the book.

[Christina Binkley]

What role?

[Monica Lewinsky]

I know Gallo's humor. I would not be sitting here if I did not have a sense of humor.

[Christina Binkley]

Honey.

[Laura Brown]

On our other Instagram post, we were rolling around and we know that came from years of. Years of places you'd been, you know what I mean? And so, oh, you've gotta have it. Humor is. Sorry. Humor is solidarity.

[Christina Binkley]

Crucial.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah. Humor is arm in arm. Humor is. We're all in it. Humor is like, oh, well, how's your healthcare budget going today? I mean, all these ridiculous things. Oh, did you have to sell a bag on the RealReal? Like, I mean, whatever the thing is, you know what I mean?

[Christina Binkley]

Been there.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I sold some of my mom's nice bags at some point, and then I had a real sense of pride when I was able to buy her a new one, you know, with money I had earned. Was.

[Laura Brown]

But you've gotta puncture all this stuff. And it's like, it is shit happens and it is life. And again, we're not alone, you know, and so you've gotta just. No, I mean, there's one thing in the book that I think is very funny is kinda like, you know, when you're hanging out, you're spending too much time with your former employees and you're still sort of picking that scab of that job, which is like. And it's so bad for you. I didn't do that, you know? Yeah, I know. You would have loved it anyway. And. But it's sort of like, you know, friends of yours from working. Oh my God. Like, and Kevin said that in the meeting. And you're still, you're still into it, but it's like you gotta cut yourself off and like, months go by and then you're like, who's. Who's Kevin anyway? Like, you know what I mean? There's all of these things that if you just pull yourself, exit the group chat, you know?

[Christina Binkley]

You know, you have to like, temper yourself and not put yourself in the situations where you're constantly kind of exposed to the old life.

[Laura Brown]

All these stupid things. And also like a silly one. But it's like when you're in the room and you're getting fired, you don't have to sign anything in the room. And then you can take that away, but. And then you can ask for everything because what are they gonna do? Fire you?

[Monica Lewinsky]

One of the things that I think is so great that you guys, you know, reference in many different ways is this sort of the idea of like, I think being fired is one of the worst things that we fear. And so that sense of once the worst thing has happened and you're still standing, that you, you know, I mean, I feel that way about my own experience. You then take that forward of, okay, the shitty things can happen and I can weather them.

[Laura Brown]

Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, in that, in that way.

[Laura Brown]

Well, you are the expert, you know. No, but exactly. But it's like those things, I think, as you weather them. And again, on our scale, ours is one thousandth of yours. But, but it, but what it is is like you think it's a Mack truck hitting you, but it's actually just a speed bump. You know, when. In the, in the broader expanse of your life.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

And. And you have to. And again, the time. You shouldn't minimize it. It really Sucks. You're like, where's my money? Where's my healthcare? Where's all that kind of stuff? But again, what's going to help you is putting that hand up. What's going to help you minimize that. What's going to help you move on is this.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Now, is there a difference between the experiences that women and men have in the getting fired?

[Christina Binkley]

Yeah, I mean, I think culturally we don't have that many examples of women who have been fired as part of their narrative of success. And so we're so grateful to the women who participated in the book because we all believe they should be on the Mount Rushmore of fire narratives, especially women like Oprah, Katie Couric, you know, these very public facing beacons of success. And so, you know, we think culturally we lack those stories. Like these are not stories you tell your daughter. Whereas, you know, we publicly, you know, we're all like, oh, Mike Bloomberg, if, you know, he had been fired from, if he hadn't been fired from Salomon Brothers, he would have never invented the Bloomberg terminal. Look at him now. Steve Jobs, famously fired, you know, comes back to Apple, has the best second, you know, career of his, of anyone ever. So, you know, I think that's part of it. It's just as a society, we don't have that many women where you're like, oh, can you believe what a badass she is? And this setback happened to her. And as Oprah says in the book, she says the setback is a setup. And so we, we believe that and we think it's really important for more swag.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah.

[Christina Binkley]

For more women to just be like, this happened to me and you know, I got on with it and like, look at where I am now, now. So we hope that that's like a wonderful side effect of the book is that more people talk like that. Secondly, you know, women had to work harder. We just did like the, the workplace wasn't built for us. You know, we only got the right to vote a hundred something years ago. All of these, you know, changes, all these like little climbs up the, you know, the rung of the ladder. You know, when you get pushed off, it's like, you know, you climbed harder, you had to go farther and it pays less. Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

Corporate environment, CEO, cfo. It's from chief. It's military. Right. So the entire workplace construct is a male construct. And so what we don't realize we're bringing in, why this shame exists, is that we're carrying. We don't realize this. We're not going, hey, I'm just going to go to work and carry all the womanhood on my back. But where we. But that we are to some degree. And sometimes you don't realize that until you're knocked off this rung because it did take you so much longer to get there, generationally, you know, and so that's why this has existed for so long. And we're now, like, we do that. Get there. And also, like, does this male construct, does this CEO, cfo, this, this. This corner office need to be the goal? Anyway, work is not linear anymore. You know, look at the fragmenting of media is the best example, as scary as it's been. But it's like all the things that you're sitting here, Monica, unless you're doing a damn podcast, you know what I mean? Because that option became available to you, you know what I mean? And you as an individual is your economy. And look, and there's people who have less profile and everything else, but that is something that is open to people that hasn't been open before. And not everyone's an entrepreneur. Not everybody can go do that. But it's not like Senate CEO and like, I got the corner office. It sounds a bit like we were reading about this last night. It has a ring of datedness in some way. It's like when Mad Men and people had, like, three martinis and died at the table. You know what I mean? It's like, dude, is that really the goal? And is that what ownership is? And is that what ambition is? And real success is personal success and success that you own on your own terms?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

What I think is so interesting, too, about the book is that as we move forward with AI, I think that your book is gonna become even more and more valuable to people in that way, because we are gonna see people displaced. I mean, if they're. And that sense of. What do you call it? The dream math. Is that math for your dreams? Math of your dreams?

[Laura Brown]

Math for your dreams.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Math for your dreams. But, I mean, I think that that's. I think that that can become, you know, that might be more valuable in wider settings than you guys ever could have imagined for it.

[Laura Brown]

We didn't know the scale. You know what I mean? We knew it was two and a half years ago, what was happening, and we saw it around us, but we could not have conceived the change with regard to AI with the choices of the administration, the volume of job loss we're seeing. And even, like, I was. I was reading a story in the Times, the Other day was really depressing. It was about how the presumption, if you went to college, you were harder to fire, you know, and how college, you know, college educated people are losing jobs hand over fist, too. And there was a. There was a gentleman in that, and he was a coder and one of the most threatened, you know, industries right now because of AI, and he was having to sort of jigsaw together different jobs, you know, to keep an income going while he was looking for something back in that field. But while he was jigsawing and he was saying how hard it was and.

[Christina Binkley]

And.

[Laura Brown]

And he was, you know, things that were beneath his pay grade or he was overqualified, all those things that can happen. But. And part of all this, and the most poignant part of it, he said, but you know what I really like doing? I like making board games. And, you know, and I know I don't know if, like, I made one and I don't know how it's gonna go, but I'm gonna make another one and we're gonna see. And in between all of his stress that he had and all of his obligation and all of his how am I gonna pay for stuff.

[Christina Binkley]

Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

He had this little pilot light of, like, I really like board games and whether that goes for him or not. But it just reminded us, like, just that little math, that little bit of. Bit of a dream, if you can activate that when you're having to deal with all the shift that's happening to you. Yeah. And all the bills you got to pay and all that vulnerability you feel. Let that be your. Yourself. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's interesting. When Mark Duplass was on, he was talking about. He. He cut his version of that, a bit called Soul Points.

[Christina Binkley]

Yep.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, which was really sort of.

[Christina Binkley]

Been the best way to put it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Thinking about it a lot, and what do you guys feel like you've learned? You know, I mean, is there a single learning for each of you? Does that feel too? I. Does that feel too. What's your favor?

[Laura Brown]

Kind of.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I hate that question. I think.

[Laura Brown]

I think. Well, I think we've learned. I've learned how helpful we can be, and we have been, and. And that we. We. We always wanted to, but it's become. It's been revealed to us what a service we're providing and we hope to provide for years to come. I mean, we've been on tour for just about a week, you know, and. And meeting women everywhere. But even before the book came out, I would have women coming up to me in the street and saying, when's the book out? I really need it. I got, I got five, whatever. And, and if the woman come to me and say, I've been doing this all week too, I got fired, I would go, you're so cool. High five, right? How cool are you? And their complete disposition would change.

[Monica Lewinsky]

That's so, you know, but then, Zo. Laura, I know, you know, I mean, Christina, I'm sure you have cool things, but that's.

[Christina Binkley]

No one's high fiving me, but no, but, no. I mean, I think one of the greatest learnings of this is just the power of friendship. I think that's one of the main takeaways is that if I hadn't had Laura when, when this happened to me to be that like, initial resource. Like, literally I'm like under the table in hr, like, hi, I'm getting the boot. Like, send me your lawyer's number. You know, that kind of thing. You know, she ended up being this great resource and also just this emotional sort of support, little support puppy, you know, because I was talking about it like I didn't go home, I didn't bottle this up. I didn't, you know, just sit there sort of like wallowing in it. And so, you know, I think the power of friendship to kind of move you through these, like, you know, and there were dark days, like, there were moments where I was just like kind of at a loss. We teased, like, some days the only emails we got were ones we subscribed to. We paid money, like, dear substack, take my $50. So I get an email today. So it was stuff like that where you're kind of like, oh, right, like there's no incoming. Like, and, you know, and so I think if, if any of the lessons of this book can be of value, like the power of your network and your friend group is one of the greatest ones.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Have you guys, did you already do this or have you thought about creating sort of a. An online community where you can almost somebody you can ad.

[Christina Binkley]

Get ahead of ourselves.

[Laura Brown]

Adopt a fiery. No, we. I mean, at the moment.

[Christina Binkley]

That's so good.

[Laura Brown]

That's so cute.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yours?

[Laura Brown]

No, it's called Fired Fest. Yeah, no, look, number one, you know, it's still early when the book's out, so we need to make the book as successful as we possibly can.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Please buy their book.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going into next year, we're going to start looking at, you know, at a few things to start shoring that up and building that because what we do know we have Is a community. You know, we have so many people on all the Cool Girls Get Fired Instagram who've just put their hand up and shared their stories with us. So, you know, who we've met, actually, it's been amazing. And only in the one week we've been doing this, the amount of moms and daughters who've come to see us and say, I bought this for my daughter. You know what I mean? Because she needs to learn. Oh, this. Something happened to her. So it's this sort of passing it on.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. The next generation that you're this, like.

[Laura Brown]

Sort of handbook and hug thing that is already happening, and we can feel that. That traction going on.

[Christina Binkley]

So also, sometimes people don't know what to say. Yeah, right. I mean, I'm sure, yeah, you've experienced this where people would run into me and, like, didn't. Like, you could tell. They were like, oh, oh, oh, there she is. You know, or maybe the Scarlet F was kind of, like, showing up in a way, and I would have to say something to, like, disarm the situation. So I would be like, oh, hey, I haven't seen you since I got fired. And suddenly they were like, oh. Like, yeah. You know, because they didn't know what to say. Like, awkward. And we really want the book to be that icebreaker. So if, like, you've got a friend who's been fired and you're kind of, like, at a loss because maybe you haven't been through it or maybe, you know, they're really taking it hard. Like, we need those shortcuts in our communication. And sometimes, you know, if the book can be the thing that you pass to someone or you hand to your daughter or whatever the circumstances are, you know, how do we sort of move people on in their processing of the situation so that they can talk about it? So, you know, I think there's lots of little ways that we can show up for each other.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay, so there's a moment in the episode you guys did with Oprah.

[Laura Brown]

Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Where she talks about letting go of things that basically no longer serve you. So, you know, this kind of dovetails with our. The last question that I ask everybody around. What are you working on reclaiming? So what did you each have to let go of and are you. Or what are you reclaiming right now? And we use a very elastic definition. So, you know, I mean, it could be anything.

[Laura Brown]

I mean, I think we got rid of these useless rituals and obligations that we had felt we had to subscribe to in the first instance, it's a bit FOMO y. You know what I mean? Oh, I'm not going there. Or everyone's over there having fun without me. But actually, it wasn't. That was last very long. Cause I was like, actually, that's not fun, and I won't do that. I think that's what you. You let go. And especially, like, we're 51 and 49 years old. We've been working for a while in this business, and so we do have a good sense of where the value is, you know, so it wasn't like we were just. We were so dazzled by it, and then we was really hard to let go. We were like, okay. We kind of sincere around this because we're growing up. Ladies. Yeah. Reclaiming, I mean, this book is. Is a reclamation. It is. It is lemons to lemonade. It is showing ourselves and people that if you own what happens to you, for better or for worse, as you have, my darling, it propels you on a road to a greater sense of fulfillment, ownership, pride, agency, control, success. And so I think that that's it.

[Christina Binkley]

And we've lived that reclaiming the sort of stigma around getting fired. You know, we really believe that, again, because of the sort of world we're in in 2025, you know, that you are not alone. You know, we joke that you don't have the exclusive on getting fired anymore.

[Laura Brown]

Sorry.

[Christina Binkley]

You know, unfortunately, as a society, like, it is really important that we take the stigma away from it. It does not mean that you were bad at what you did, you know, or you don't have value in the workplace. And I think that taking that back is so important. And, you know, as a culture, we need to just get rid of it.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I think in the book you guys talk about in such a great way, that thing of, you know, changing it from this happened to you to this happened for you, you know, so. Which I love.

[Laura Brown]

That's well said. Yeah. I don't know if we even said it that way. Use it. You nailed it.

[Christina Binkley]

No, but I mean. I mean, we wouldn't be here if we hadn't been fired. We also thank the people who fired us in the book because, you know, with a little bit of, like, you know, we're.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah.

[Christina Binkley]

You know, we're grateful it happened. Like, we are the people sitting here two and a half years later, three and a half years later, you know, who were kind of like, oh, right. Yeah, maybe it was the best thing that ever happened to us.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. I myself have had so many experiences where the, you know, they say rejection is redirection, and in that way of that, it's. I think what's been interesting for me is that the first time it happened was so devastating and it was so compounded by many things. But then when it happened again a decade later, I was able to sort of go, okay, remember all those things and how upset you were about this, that, and the other happening and how it was the best fucking thing that ever happened to you?

[Laura Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, so this may be that too. And try to have that. It's hard. It can be hard. It's not like a life away. It doesn't. Yeah.

[Laura Brown]

No.

[Christina Binkley]

You have to work at not letting it consume you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Laura Brown]

Yeah. And time helps and friends help and community helps. Yeah. And wine, if you're into that. You know what I mean? All of those short term and long term things help, but your community helps and, and, and never forget that. And don't isolate yourself because they're there.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. This has been so great.

[Christina Binkley]

Thank you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF media studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candice Manriquez Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.