Lena Dunham

Summary

Podcast Summary: Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky

Episode: Lena Dunham

Date: April 21, 2026
Host: Monica Lewinsky
Guest: Lena Dunham

Episode Overview

This episode of Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky features a deeply honest, wide-ranging, and at times very funny conversation with writer, filmmaker, and cultural provocateur Lena Dunham. Centering on the theme of "reclaiming your own story," Monica and Lena unpack their parallel (and at times divergent) experiences with public scrutiny, shame, family, trauma, and ultimately, how to find your narrative again amidst widespread cultural judgment. The dialogue flows from the pressures of being young women in the limelight, through generational shifts in feminism, to the wisdom that comes from surviving life's messiest moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Reflections on Meeting and Shared Admiration

• [01:07] Both Monica and Lena express excitement and mutual respect. Lena shares that being on the podcast is "a real honor" and credits Monica for being a role model of "a woman taking their experiences, whatever they may look like, and turning them into their own really beautiful reality."
• Monica likens Lena to a "box of See’s Candy," expressing anticipation for their conversation.

2. Reclaiming Narrative: Fame, Shame & Media

• [05:35] Monica introduces Lena’s memoir, Fame Sick, framing it as Lena reclaiming her own story from the media’s often distorting lens.
• Lena resists the idea of "setting the record straight," noting that women in public life only rarely get to control their own narrative:

  “I wanted to tell it back to me and ... to the person who got really confused between what my narrative was and what the narrative was.” [06:42]

• [07:41] Lena describes the vulnerabilities of sudden fame at 24 with the launch of Girls, reflecting on feeling "too susceptible and young" to shield herself from public perception and criticism.

3. Age of Transparency & Generational Change

• [09:42] Monica muses on her friend’s theory that the late 90s (her own scandal) "ushered in the age of transparency," and connects this with Lena’s Girls, which ushered in a new layer of authenticity on television.
• Lena recalls witnessing Monica’s public ordeal as a child and later being quoted about it in the New York Times as a sign of shifting cultural values.

4. Trauma, Family, & the Process of Healing

• [14:58] Both discuss the feeling of "boarding up" with their families under public siege.
  Monica: “My family and I went through that same thing... we crawled out on the balcony at night just to get fresh air.”
• [15:52] Lena celebrates her parents’ unconditional support, especially when she felt misunderstood by the world:

  “Even an upstanding doctor is like, above all, I love my daughter and I love her... not despite her choices, but because of them.”

• [18:22] They reflect on how surviving public trauma increases one’s resilience over time, and how each experience "fattens the file folder" of survival skills.

5. Writing the Memoir: Self-Acceptance & Story as Survival

• [19:07] Lena acknowledges the vulnerability of writing a memoir, hoping it becomes a "message in a bottle" for others facing shame and confusion.
• The conversation evolves into the nature of negative feedback online and the disproportionate weight it carries, likened to being "a bear has just scared me." [20:28]

6. Shame, Public Identity, and Internet Culture

• [25:39] Lena shares searing memories of being bullied in high school and experiencing public mockery post-Girls:

  “I’m watching a TV show I like and then I’m a punchline...there’s this girl. She’s the ugliest little girl in the world. Why are we watching this fat girl?...I had to find a way to be like, yes, my name is Lena Dunham and that is ok.” [26:39]

• Monica reads a passage from Lena’s book describing her name’s journey from "mark of excellence" to "punchline." [27:14]
• Both connect their experiences of being defined and redefined publicly, and discuss the process and power of reclaiming those narratives for oneself.

7. Sexuality, Boundaries, and Early Experiences

• [30:46] The tone becomes more candid and humorous as Monica and Lena share stories of their own sexual histories—including Lena self-identifying as a "blowjob queen" and discussing internalized criticism received from partners.
• Lena reflects on seeking validation from romantic partners as a young woman and how it impacted her self-worth and relationships.

8. Trauma, Dissociation & Generational Differences

• [41:08] Monica and Lena explore how Gen X and elder Millennials lacked language or frameworks for experiences like "slut shaming," "fat shaming," and "power dynamics." Comparing then to now, they discuss the relief and possibility that come with naming traumas—and wonder aloud about how younger generations will process theirs.
• Lena recounts her own experience of sexual assault, the difficulty of naming it at the time, and her fears about public reception to her disclosures. [44:45]

9. Grief, Growth, and Integration

• [47:45] They explore the nuanced experience of grief for lost time and lost versions of oneself, sharing specific memories that trigger those emotions. Monica describes "the dark decade," and Lena reflects on the ways trauma and illness have forced her to grow comfortable with change. [48:25]
• Monica describes how her major healing milestone was not in seeking to "get rid of public Monica Lewinsky" but learning to "integrate her and accept her," and Lena affirms the value of not needing to "forgive oneself" to feel worthy of joy. [53:13]

10. Feminism, Intersectionality & Community

• The conversation shifts to the landscape of modern feminism, its contradictions, and its generational evolution—from commodified Instagram-era feminism to the complexities of MeToo, intersectionality, and gatekeeping around gender. [58:24]
• Lena:

  "Feminism has never been more multifaceted and nuanced and expansive, but it's also deeply under threat."

• Monica and Lena share concerns over post-Roe politics and women's internalization of patriarchal norms, alongside optimism for collaboration and dialogue as paths forward.

11. Reclaiming Joy & Childlike Imagination

• [64:27] Monica asks what Lena is currently reclaiming. Lena answers:

  “I’ve been working really hard on reclaiming ... who I was when I was a little kid. That feeling of just sitting in your room, dreaming, thinking... really leaning into that playful, happy confidence that we have before it gets grabbed from us.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Surviving Public Scrutiny
  Lena: “I remember that feeling of powerlessness and rage. And I Could have maybe taken that and, you know, hurt people. Hurt people. And then what was so interesting was that felt like...the pinnacle of shame. And then when I put the show out, it was that all day.” [25:41]

• On Resilience:
  Monica: "Sometimes, just taking your next breath is resilience." [03:56]

• On Narrative and Perception:
  Lena: “The record will just continue to be set for you, and your words will be...perceived and misperceived.” [05:54]

• On Shame and Self-Compassion:
  Lena: "It's okay to have something that you wish had never happened...and still believe that you are a person who is worthy of happiness and worthy of a big full life." [53:13]

• On Public Mistakes:
  Lena: “You can know that there are moments you erred in a human way and try to make amends, and also not punish yourself. Wasting my own time like that is not going to give anyone back anything.” [54:45]

• On Feminism’s Evolution:
  Lena: “...the word intersectional was not touching on those ideas...feminism kind of became this, like, poppy, commodified...and it all started to feel, I think, very hollow for people.” [58:24]

• On Joyful Reclamation:
  Lena: “...Really leaning into that playful, happy confidence that we have before it sort of gets grabbed from us.” [65:57]

• Lena to Monica:
  “If I was the queen, you would be a dame...I can smell freedom on you.” [66:10]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:07 – Warm welcome & shared admiration
• 05:35 – Introduction of Fame Sick and reclaiming narrative
• 14:58 – Familial shelters during public censure
• 19:07 – Writing as survival and self-acceptance
• 25:39 – High school bullying, public ridicule, and "owning your name"
• 41:08 – Generational shifts: Sexuality, language, and processing trauma
• 47:45 – Grief and memory connected to trauma and healing
• 53:13 – Integrating the public self and self-acceptance
• 58:24 – Modern feminism, intersectionality, and the pitfalls of “girl culture”
• 64:27 – Reclaiming childhood joy and creativity

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is at once candid, serious, and laugh-out-loud funny. Lena’s sharp self-awareness and wit shine throughout, as does Monica’s empathy and intellectual rigor. Both create a space for nuanced reflection and generous mutual support, with honest admissions about private struggles and public pressures. The episode ends on a warm, supportive note and expresses a shared hope for reclaiming freedom, creativity, and connection for themselves and their listeners.

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This summary covers all non-advertisement aspects of the conversation and is structured for easy reference. For anyone interested in the interior worlds of two women who shaped—and were shaped by—American culture, it's a must-listen episode.

Transcript

[Lena Dunham]

I'm watching a TV show I like and then I'm a punchline in the TV show and suddenly a comedian I like is making jokes about me and him going, I watched this show. There's this girl. She's the ugliest little girl in the world. Why are we watching this little fat girl? And being like, okay, there it is. Like, there it is. And I felt like my parents had given me this name with so much care and consideration. And there it was. And it was just a joke. And I had to find a way to be like, yes, my name is Lena Dunham and that is ok. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

[Monica Lewinsky]

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[Lena Dunham]

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[Monica Lewinsky]

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[Lena Dunham]

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[Monica Lewinsky]

Lena, Monica, I'm so. I'm so thrilled to welcome you to Reclaiming.

[Lena Dunham]

Thank you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I was thinking this feels like getting a box of See's Candy. You were like, what do I start with first?

[Lena Dunham]

That is firstly, I love that reference. And when I first got to la, I was like, see's Candy is exactly. It's true. You as a native Los Angeleno, but when I first discovered it. But I just want to say before I say anything else, that it's a real honor to be here with you. And you've meant something in my life for a very long time. And I love so much that you've created this space and that you've welcomed me into this space. And so I just want to say it's very moving. This morning you very kindly allowed us to switch up our time. And I said to my publicist, I said, right now I'm not making enough words to talk to the Monica Lewinsky.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my gosh.

[Lena Dunham]

So I plan, please.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I hope I don't disappoint you, but already knows.

[Lena Dunham]

Thank you. You walked in in that pink skirt and I went, we're done here. It's perfect.

[Monica Lewinsky]

This was sort of a. This was one of those purchases when I was away. I was in Carmel. One of my best friends lives there. And we went to a store and I was like, I'm gonna buy this skirt.

[Lena Dunham]

And I actually won. I could be that woman. I could be that woman. And you are.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I am that woman.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah. And I love it. I love it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wink, wink. Okay. I don't know if you remember, I think the first time we might have met in person. Was this. Was it a Hollywood reporter, like, mentor? Y thingy? Breakfast. Okay.

[Lena Dunham]

Yep. And we met briefly. And I remember being so excited, nervous, thrilled. I mean, I. Oh, my gosh. Lena, I obviously have followed so many parts of your life and your story and seeing, I mean, the name reclaiming for your podcast. And I thought about you a lot writing my book. Cause you're the platonic ideal of a woman taking their experiences, whatever they may look like, and turning them into their own really beautiful reality. And so you and your pink skirt are a testament to that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Thank you. I really take that in and that means a lot.

[Lena Dunham]

Well, I mean it from the bottom of my heart.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Thank you. I think it is. It's actually a very interesting. Because I don't think there's a narrative yet in the world of. I think we're all creating it now around this idea of, like, things that sort of knock someone down. I mean, I'm thinking about, for me, like, the fallen woman doesn't get up. Right. But there are others who aren't just fallen women, but they're like, we go through these horrible things. And when you come to a place where you really can see that, easing other people's suffering by sharing your own story, you know, it's really. I mean, yesterday I gave a talk and I said something I hadn't ever said before, which was like, around resilience. And I said, I impressed myself.

[Lena Dunham]

That's right. So beautiful.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But I said, sometimes just taking your next breath is resilience.

[Lena Dunham]

It's everything. And so that's such a beautiful thing. Firstly, what you said about. There isn't a narrative yet. There isn't. Because for so long, being a woman, not just in the public eye, but whether it was, I think about my grandmother who was a first generation Jewish woman in Long island, who was really trying to sort of like fit into an ideal about what it meant to be like a good American woman. And there were so many experiences that she never told me about until she was 96 and dying because there was no space for imperfection. And now, of course, because there are so many eyes on everyone, whether they're a high school girl who sends a nude to someone who thinks has a crush on her, or a woman in the public eye who gets her phone hacked, or a woman in the public eye who goes through a really gnarly divorce or an episode of. Or a mental health crisis. We see it now. And so we see people having to either kind of collapse or regather their life or both or both. And that's the thing is so much of it is both. But what you're saying about sort of just taking your next breath and kind of impressing yourself in that process. I mean, I really had to take in, at certain times, the idea that every hour in which you're kind of moving forward is a good one. And then one day you find yourself in a space where you're not just going one minute or one hour at a time.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Let's also say that your new memoir is called Fame Sick.

[Lena Dunham]

Oh, yes, exactly. It's called Fame Sick. And I'm so grateful that you're wanting to talk to me about it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I mean, I think you're very much. I think the book is you really reclaiming your story from, in many ways, the media that owned your narrative. I mean, would you. Does that feel.

[Lena Dunham]

It feels absolutely right. And someone said to me, why did you write this book? Was it to sort of set the record straight? And I was like, I'm very resistant to that idea of set the record straight because, a. I don't think in. We're always in this kind of cyclical relationship with the culture. And I think, especially as women, it's almost impossible to set the record straight. Yeah, the record will just continue to be set for you, and your words will be. And if you're lucky enough to have a story that meets people, it will be perceived and misperceived. But I wanted to tell it back to me and I think to the person who got really confused between what my narrative was and what the narrative was. And.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, wait, say that again. That's really interesting, the difference between what

[Lena Dunham]

my narrative was and the narrative and the narrative. And, you know, it's interesting. You hear a lot of people say on reality shows, people be like, I don't care what anyone thinks. Cause I know who I am. But it's a big refrain on, say, like, Real Housewives. I know who I am, and I know my heart. But what people don't say is that when other people. You start out having something that you love to do, like make TV or make movies. And for me, personally, I know that people are much more kind of. Especially young people now are so kind of conscious of the fame machine and how to work it and how to do it and. But I was just like, I love doing this. I can't think of any other job that I'd want to do. This is where I feel happy. And I guess this is the sort of inverse, as my father would say, you got to pay to play. There's no free lunch. But I stop. People say, oh, I know who I am. I know where my heart is. I felt I was too susceptible and young to be able to do that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So this is sort of Girls is coming out. You're 24. You're only 24. Yeah, 24.

[Lena Dunham]

I mean, you and I both know how young that really is.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You don't. You don't think the worst part about that age, like, I think the 20 to 25 is you think you are a fucking adult. Like, in the capital A.

[Lena Dunham]

No one could tell me anything. No. Like, an adult would say something to me and I'd be like, you don't. You don't get it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Like.

[Lena Dunham]

And I. You truly think you're an adult with a capital A and you actually know nothing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know shit. You know shit about squat. Squat about shit.

[Lena Dunham]

Squat about shit. And I look back and there are certain people who've had, you know, if they've had a child at that age or they've had to grow up in these really profound ways, but I had not. Like, I was living in my. When the girls came out, I still lived with my parents. That's. I didn't even have. Like, I didn't.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, I lived with my mom.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah. You lived with your mom.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

Like, that was my reality. I didn't even. I'd never paid an electric bill. Like, I didn't know how to be in the world. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So in 2020, I mean, because that's really. You had had success before, But I think 2012, in girls, like, like millions of others, that's when you sort of came on my radar. It was this, right? I mean, everybody knows cultural juggernaut. And like the tiktokers now, right. The young people have been revisiting, which is so sweet.

[Lena Dunham]

People will send me tiktoks of like 15 year olds miming our lines and it's the most tender thing in the world. But yes, it was 20. And I had made independent films before, but I remember being like, oh, someone wrote a review of my movie where they said that actually it's like, you know, the cinematography was less good than other people. It was what felt like a. A front was nothing. It was the light stuff. You know, when you're in a small creative community that's essentially supportive. And then once you're, you know, at that point, there's four things on HBO on Sunday night, people are watching them, whether they kind of like them or not.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

And then also you're getting it was amazing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I mean, I was still in my dark decade when girls started.

[Lena Dunham]

And dark decade is such a great way of putting it. I mean, it's not great that it happened.

[Monica Lewinsky]

No, no.

[Lena Dunham]

Beautifully said.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's, you know, I think it's easy to understand.

[Lena Dunham]

Right, of course.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But I think for me, what was so interesting is around that time, a dear friend of mine who's since passed away had talked to me about. She saw what happened in 98 and the impeachment as the sort of ushering in of the age of transparency, which I thought was really interesting. And along, like, when she was talking to me about this is when girls started.

[Lena Dunham]

Wow.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And I felt like what you were doing with girls was sort of ushering in this layer of authenticity. And I think that's what people I know, that's what I connected to in watching it at the time was like, oh, I'm seeing real unvarnished. It's not unscripted, which is actually not inscripted, not authentic, not real, not all those things. But that's what I felt. You're just such a keen observer. And so, you know, it's really interesting

[Lena Dunham]

to think about 98 ushering in age of transparency because there's so much stuff, including our show, that that could not and would not exist if those conversations. You know, I remember what was happening. I was in fifth grade at Friends Seminary school.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Sorry, I hope you knew about blowjobs before then.

[Lena Dunham]

I sure did. Okay, good. My parents let me know everything early. They were like, we don't want you to hear this at school and get scared, so we're gonna give it to you straight. They did a pretty. I have to say, I came home one day and was like, my friend says I thought that the way babies were made was that I thought it made scientific sense, was that your arm went against your husband's arm if you wanted a baby. And then the sperm and the egg met through the pores of your skin. That was the story I created. And then a girl at school was like, no, your dad puts his penis in your mom's chin. And I was like, I'm gonna jump off a building. This is the worst thing I've ever heard. And I went home and said, this could not be true. She told me this horrible, horrible lie. And I was in first grade, and my parents brought home a book and explained, and they were like, you can do it in your mouth. You can do it with your hands. So I did know. And I remember at the time, because my mom was really. Thank God. A very vocal feminist. Both of your parents.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And both your parents are artists.

[Lena Dunham]

They're both artists. They're both liberal. I mean, where I came from, like, no. You know, infidelity was the least of anybody's problems and often encouraged. But although I think my parents seem like they held it down. That being said, my mom was very vocal about how what was happening was not right. And I feel lucky that I grew up in a house where the feedback was, this is not okay. This person is a child. You cannot speak about somebody this way. And I don't know if this is a funny, odd thing, but I was once at a dinner party that I didn't know a reporter was at, sort of during.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, I've had that.

[Lena Dunham]

Yep.

[Monica Lewinsky]

My favorite is when it's a dinner party in someone's home.

[Lena Dunham]

That's what this was.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. And any. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

[Lena Dunham]

It was a dinner party in someone's home and an adult. I was sort of like. They were treating me like the voice of millennial reason.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Lena Dunham]

And they said, why do you think this election is gonna go the way it is? And I was like, well, we understand that what happened to Monica Lewinsky is not okay. And so our trust in these people is extremely fractured, even if we ultimately think they might be the right people. And it was quoted in the New York Times. And I remember that I was sort of. There was a whole. The person whose home it was wanted to get it taken down. And I was like, but what I said is right. So why would we take. I mean, I didn't know a reporter was there. She maybe should have warned me, but I was like, I'm glad to be on record saying this, and I'm glad that I had a mother who said this. And I'm glad that we're starting to live in a world where people are engaging in even as things get crazier or engaging in critical thought. I remember the first time I experienced what felt like really sort of intense, destabilizing, public censure, whatever we want to call it. And the next few months were I was in a fugue state. And it sort of felt like I was. And I know you know this feeling better than anyone, sort of. I was in my family's house, basically feeling like we were all taking shelter. Like, it was like, you know, wizard of Oz and we're gonna board the house up. Cause the hurricane's coming. And then I went to shoot an independent movie in Palm Springs, and I was staying in, like, a, you know, best Western motel. And I just opened the window and I looked out at the landscape and I just thought, God, that's so beautiful. And. And I realized I had not looked at the world in that way. It had been so long since I looked at something and it offered me pleasure or I was impressed with it. And I'll remember that moment for the rest of my life. Cause I went, okay, I'm going to be okay. Cause I just, I'm no longer living in this state of fight or flight, which we now know so much more about trauma. And we know that it's not. Yes, it is a man who finds himself in a combat situation. Yes, it is someone who experiences domestic violence. And yes, it is also whenever someone is pushed into a severe state of fight or flight defense for a long term period, it changes the topography of your brain.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, yeah, no, it does, it does. It's interesting because we did go, like I say we. So my family and I went through that same thing. Both when I was in LA staying with my dad and stepmom and in DC with my mom. And just that, like, I remember we crawled out on the balcony at night just to get fresh air.

[Lena Dunham]

Yes. You know, because you were, you were basically, you were surrounded and having to find peace knowing that you were being circled. And that is. And it's interesting because you're obviously incredibly close with your family.

[Monica Lewinsky]

As are you.

[Lena Dunham]

Hugely. And my parents played a huge role in why I wanted to do this. And also, whenever something would go wrong, my first thought would be, how will they feel about this? What will they think?

[Monica Lewinsky]

And imagine a Santa with the President, Actually, I was like, oh my God, my dad's an upstanding doctor. What's gonna happen?

[Lena Dunham]

But isn't it kind of amazing when you realize that even an upstanding doctor is like, above all, I love my daughter and I love her. And I love her, not despite her choices, but because of them. I love who she is. And I'm sure there were hard, really hard moments. I mean, I remember in my early 20s, I, like many women, got HPV. And I told my parents because I had to go back and get a colposcopy procedure.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I don't know what that is.

[Lena Dunham]

It's like some kind of scraping of something

[Monica Lewinsky]

designed by a man.

[Lena Dunham]

I'm sure designed by a man. Incredibly painful scraping of your cervix that leaves you feeling absolutely seared. And I told my father and he said, does this mean that you've had sex? And it broke my heart. I was like, honey, honey, but that's you know, I was still to him, he was seeing like this little girl. And then so much of. I mean, you experience this. My parents had to sort of see me becoming this person who maybe they didn't recognize and at least in other people's perception. And we really hunkered down and we also felt, I think a lot of it was not the same as your situation, but we felt a lot of distrust. It was like our nuclear family was the only safe space. And it took us a while to really be able to acknowledge that with each other and to be able to then kind of expand our lives again. But that crawling out on the balcony just to get fresh air at night is such a visceral image.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Or seeing the image, you know, seeing the vista. Right?

[Lena Dunham]

Seeing the vista and going, all right, like I'm in the world again. It was like it knocked me back into my body. And I've noticed since that when. And you may find this when you go through something really big, and I had some big experiences in my career, I had some big experiences with my health. I had some big sort of kind of significant traumatic markers. What you find once you sort of work with that a bit, and then I'm wondering if this is true for you, is that then the next time something happens, you go, I'm actually so much more capable than I understood. Like, my husband always jokes that when there's any kind of crisis, he sort of turns into a little girl who's seen a mouse. And I go into mode where suddenly I'm looking, you know, in my day to day life, I can be scattered, I can be goofy, and Suddenly I'm looking 10,000ft ahead and moving with meticulousness. And you learn these skills, these coping skills that are painful, but you also, you impress yourself.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, well, I think also too, I. You know, and it's something I just wish I could kind of inject into younger people is the more time first. It's like, I don't know that there's anybody who goes through life unscathed. I don't think there's anybody who goes through life where it's just one thing that goes wrong. But what you come to learn is every time you get through something, the next time there's like the file folder in your mind of I can get through this is fatter. And so 100%. And that's the thing that is so. I think it's so much harder for young people to really grok like in terms of. In their soul if like this you will get better. You will be okay.

[Lena Dunham]

You know, writing a memoir can seem like a very, I don't know, it can seem like a very self serving action. You're reflecting on your own experiences. And the thing I had to remind myself is I'm doing this for a reason. And it's because I wish that when I was going through this, whether it was challenging experiences with how people perceived me or my body turning sort of against me at a very early age, I wanted that. I always turned to books and to art to try to explain my experiences to me and so had to remind myself that that is always my goal, is that you put this thing out in the world like a message in a bottle and you hope that it reaches the people that need it or would be helped by it. And I think for me, women like you being honest about that. I know that I was really searching for those role models because I looked around and I saw, especially in Hollywood, so many women where it seemed like they get up at 5 in the morning to have their coffee and they work out and they, and they engage in a perfect amount of self reflective time before crushing their day. And I was like, I don't think

[Monica Lewinsky]

Sarah Crawford does do that. Sorry to interrupt. She was on the show and she told me about her morning routine and I was so jealous. I was like, oh, what I would give to be able to. I'm sorry to amputate.

[Lena Dunham]

No, you didn't interrupt. By the way, my best friend Russell calls it, he says in Jewish families it's called not interrupting. It's called collaborative overlap.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh.

[Lena Dunham]

So I love it. Someone asked me recently, why do you think it is that we always hear, you know, in a sea of positive things, the negative thing is the loudest. And I was like, well, that's human nature. And I don't know, I mean we are like essentially sort of walking around in a jungle afraid of a large prey animal. And there it is. And it might come in the form of an, of an actual lion or it might come in the form of a bunch of Instagram comments, but it has the same. I remember saying, I feel like I'm always like about to be like a bear has just scared me. And I feel that way all the time. And you're right, the thing that I always think about when I was writing this book and I thought, is it self indulgent to sort of reflect on fame and public perception? But you hear stories all the time about people who are defined by one moment. And it might be in ninth grade and it might be in the worst night of their life when they drank the most in college or.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I don't know if you've read the New York Times piece or seen anything with Kristin Cabot, who was at the Coldplay concert. You know, I mean, that's like a narrative that runs away from you.

[Lena Dunham]

That story struck me profoundly because she was going through a really complicated moment in her marriage. She separated, but not public about it. And she began this relationship that was meaningful to her. And before it could even become anything, before it could even. There was this moment that was turned on her. And she said, you know, my children are traumatized. My ex husband is traumatized. We have received death threats. I can't go out of my house. And I think. And it's interesting because we live in this time that's very. Where people are very free with their opinions, but they're also incredibly rigid and moralistic, which you experienced deeply, which is people's judgment. And, you know, one of my grandmother's favorite things to say was, like, you can't see behind anyone's bedroom doors. Everybody feels you think everyone's perfect, but. And so often people's judgment comes from the thing that they are most afraid that they are. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

Like any woman who's going to say to another woman, you stepped out of your marriage. You're an absolute whore. What's going on with you has some really complicated feelings about their own sexuality, their own place in the world. Cause I have a feeling you feel similarly. Like, it would never occur to me to go on the Internet and say anything to anyone. And I would never.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Now, I might be catty with my best friend or. Right. And, you know, but the idea, and to a stranger is just, I will

[Lena Dunham]

definitely be catty with my best friend. I like to always say, I'm going ahead, but. And then insert thing I'm going to hell for. But the idea of going online. And I do think when I try to be empathic, maybe, towards which I've tried to put myself in the place of, like, what is it that these people are experiencing? And I do think that people feel so powerless in their lives in so many different ways in the time we live in and like, so much fear that there is a way that sometimes those kinds of comments create some illusion of control or power that they.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's interesting because I think that what social media really has done has mapped people's underlying beliefs. And so we see the best and the worst of people, and it's up to us to figure out what do we want to do with that? You know and I don't know that we're on the right path to doing that.

[Lena Dunham]

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[Monica Lewinsky]

tell them what you want to pay

[Lena Dunham]

and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first

[Monica Lewinsky]

policy or just looking for something that

[Lena Dunham]

works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool. Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Mom, can you tell me a story? Sure. Once upon a time, a mom needed a new car. Was she brave? She was tired mostly. But she went to Carvana.com and found a great car at a great price.

[Monica Lewinsky]

No secret treasure map required. Did you have to fight a dragon? Nope.

[Lena Dunham]

She bought it 100% online from her bed, actually. Was it scary?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Honey, it was as unscary as car buying could be.

[Lena Dunham]

Did the car have a sunroof? It did, actually. Okay, good story. Car buying.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You'll want to tell stories about buy

[Lena Dunham]

your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. I remember when I was in high school, I was not the coolest girl in high. I mean, I went to a high school full of cool kids and it was an independent and free thinking place. But still, high school will be high school no matter where you are.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my God.

[Lena Dunham]

And high school kids are always gonna have their kind of lord of the flies energy. And I remember there was a very popular boy and we had all recently gotten cell phones. That's how old I am.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my God.

[Lena Dunham]

We had new, like, little.

[Monica Lewinsky]

That's how young you are.

[Lena Dunham]

We'd all gotten our first cell phones. And like, you know, you give your number out at school, but it was still like you didn't. It wasn't like I had everyone's number saved. And one night I got a voicemail and it was. Someone threw a vocoder, had said, you're fat and you deserve to die. And I remember, just like I couldn't believe I had never heard anything like that. I remember going upstairs, like, shaking, playing it for my parents. Someone told me who it was. And I remember I went up to him at school and I said, you can't say something like that to me. And he said, I can say anything I want. And I remember that feeling of powerlessness and rage. And I Could have maybe taken that and, you know, hurt people. Hurt people. And then what was so interesting was that felt like, you know, at that point, like the pinnacle of shame. And then when I put the show out, it was that all day I talk in the book about feeling like there was a period where I went, my name doesn't even belong to me anymore. It's like a joke. I'm watching a TV show I like, and then I'm a punchline in the TV show, and suddenly a comedian I like is making jokes about me and him going, I watched this show. There's this girl. She's the ugliest little girl in the world. Why are we watching this little fat girl? And being like, okay, there it is. Like, there it is. And getting. And I felt like my parents had given me this name with so much care and consideration, and there it was. And it was just a joke. And I had to find a way to be like, yes, my name is Lena Dunham, and that is okay. That's okay. So I love that you. Yeah. Did that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Actually, there's. I have this. There's a great quote. Let me find it. That I really liked and connected to. So you talk about how your name entered and you call it. I want to get it right, the spin cycle of mass media. And then you said that your name quote became a mark of excellence, then a signifier of a certain kind of millennial absurdity and finally a punchline that felt more like a slur.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And I just. It was really interesting to me because, like, my experience was the opposite, but having. There are not a lot of people who have both ends of the spectrum, you know, and it's.

[Lena Dunham]

Well, it's interesting because now when someone says your name, it's like. Like this morning when I was like, I've got to be able to make words for Queen Monica Lewinsky. Like, you are what you say on the cup. Like, you are a signifier of reclamation, the thoughtfulness with which you have engaged. And what I'm so impressed by is you've not just engaged your own story or kind of reworked that, but also worked really hard to engage with other women who have been through things that may not be identical and also work with them to do the challenging and investigative kind of procedure that is involved with. And also, I think, a huge amount of why we are revisiting, whether it's how we treated teenage girls, the paparazzi treated teenage girls in the early 2000s, or how we talked about people's bodies or how we talked about people's sex lives is because of the proactive work that you have done to change the narrative. You didn't wait for people to go, you know what? We really. One of my least favorite things that people say is they go, we did you dirty. You didn't wait for people to go, we did Monica Lewinsky dirty. And you also didn't come out swinging. You came out with this deeply considered, very psychologically rich and complex story and then wanted to help other women do the same. That's amazing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, I think it's. I mean, I think many of us who are storytellers who are also in the public eye.

[Lena Dunham]

You are storyteller, and you didn't. Capital S. You re emerged as a storyteller after having your story told to you so many times. Yeah. The thing that's wild about being a young woman is you start out with all this hope and sense of your own promise and excitement, and a lot of times that is swiftly revoked. Like, it's like I always say the worst feeling is, like, when you're dancing joyfully, then you accidentally hit your head on something, and you're so embarrassed. And. And that's what I feel like being a young woman is. It's like you're dancing joyfully, and then you hit your head and you go, oh, my God, this is insane. And being consumed and then having to rebuild yourself in the wake of that and be a person that you. And not just rebuild yourself, but rebuild yourself as a person that you can respect, which involves removing the voices. And I'm sure these still come back sometimes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

Of all of the people who. Who, again, if we had reality TV cameras in their house, we might have a different situation. And I mean, I was just saying. I was just saying to my hair and makeup team. So I was saying how excited I was to talk to you, and I was like, if people knew who I was blowing when I was 21. Do you know? I mean, it's so dark.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You talk about it in the book, Right? I mean, I haven't finished, but I'm.

[Lena Dunham]

Yes, you're in there.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I'm in there.

[Lena Dunham]

And I refer to myself as a blowjob queen.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yes, I know. I was like, that's what I thought.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I want girl.

[Lena Dunham]

A fellow blowjob queen. And I never dreamed that I would meet the best.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I'm really not. I'm not gonna let the bright parents listen to this episode.

[Lena Dunham]

The best and the brightest.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Really not.

[Lena Dunham]

But no, no. And that's okay. But I think a big part of it for me was I was. When I finally became sexually active, I didn't have a strong. I mean, I'd come out of. You know, I had some traumatic experiences. I didn't feel beautiful. And I was sort of like anyone who's interested if you. Basically my defining quality was, do you seem vaguely attracted to me? That is enough. And it's really. I mean, I. I look back and I really think until I met my husband when I was 35 years old, I actually did not know what it was like to be in a reciprocal dynamic of real affection. I thought that being criticized, being picked apart. I mean, I dated a guy. I remember I just remembered this. That when I was 25, he said, you're really cute, but you should never show your knees. And I was like, he's trying to help me. He's trying to help me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh.

[Lena Dunham]

Oh, yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I mean, I've had so many. I shouldn't like you because you're fat, but, you know, I find you attractive or I have to leave to. Because I'm thinking in the middle of sex because I'm thinking about somebody else.

[Lena Dunham]

Oh. And I was always making excuses. What you're describing is. I mean, it's shocking to me. Cause anyone would be lucky to be in your space. But I really accepted that. And it's interesting. Cause I have an amazing relationship with my father. He really bigged me up. But I actually think that I went into the world expecting this kind of. My father is a. I mean, it was, you know, he was the person who braided your hair before school. He was the person who took you to the doctor. My mom is a complete. Like, she's a. She's a top. And I. And I. So I thought that everyone was gonna be this, like, modern evolved feminist, thoughtful, engaged and like, open to dialogue. And that was not even the cool liberal arts boys I met were not that. And I put myself, and I talk about this in the book in a lot of situations that were really damaging and involved complete dissociation to be able to get through them. And I also am embarrassed by how much I invested in the idea that being close to a guy who was cool, smart, normatively attractive, that it inferred some kind of worth on me. Like, I remember when I had my public breakup thinking, this is gonna affirm what everybody thinks, which is, I'm unlovable and I'm unappealing. And I loved this person. But also, being with them was a marker that I am. Okay. My boyfriend was successful and handsome and likable and it meant that I was all of those things, too. And having to spend. I mean, I spent a good period really, really, really profoundly single. Like, alone with your hairless dog all the time single. And that was huge because I had to build back my sense of myself as a viable person without that. And by the time that I met my husband, I was comfortable with the idea that maybe that wasn't gonna be. I wasn't gonna be in a traditional relationship and that that would be okay. And I'm sort of not in a traditional relationship. I'm in a relationship that has its own contours and things and works for the way I am. But I didn't even know that was possible.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, you said, I'm gonna find it. Cause you said this really interesting thing with the announcement of fame. Sick on Instagram. And one of the things you said that you talk about the lessons I no longer feel ashamed of having had to learn.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Like, is that. Does that fall into that category? Are there others?

[Lena Dunham]

Like, what felt that falls into that category? Not necessarily knowing how to be in an interview or speak. I looked around and I thought, all these girls are so. You know, I remember there was. I talked about this. There was a year that I was going to award shows, and the other girls I saw were amazing, talented. Emma Stone, Jennifer Lawrence, Brie Larson. And they seemed to know how to be elegant and powerful. And, of course, all of these women have their own. Jennifer Lawrence has spoken extensively about her own traumas around public life. But at the time, I thought, why am I this, like, dummy who, like, has to constantly be taught lessons on a public scale? Like, why can I not seem to keep my foot out of my mouth? The same part of me that didn't know how to be at a sleepover party doesn't know how to be here. And then there were the lessons that I learned about taking care of my body. Like, yes, I had health issues, but the relentlessness with which I worked, coupled with the way that I treated myself, whether it was with food or drugs or alcohol or sex, did not help. And so I felt like by the time I got into my 30s, I felt like I was 70. I was like, I have just. It's like a ship that had just crashed against the rocks, and all that was left was, like, three boards. And, I mean, I'm sure that you have your own version of this, which is having to. The lessons that you've had to learn. In some way, they're universal, and in some ways, they're deeply specific to you and you don't. You know, when you were sitting with another group of women, they may not have all been presenting similar quandary, but it's interesting.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Cause what comes up for me is one of your gifts is. And I might have already said, this is keen observation. Like I heard you say. I think it might have been on Armchair Expert, maybe. But I heard you say this thing where you were like, hold on, it was first day of school, outfit, energy or something. And I was like, oh, my God, we all know. But that's your gift. And so.

[Lena Dunham]

Thank you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So, first of all, I'm sure you were great in those settings. But also when you're observing and you're like, pulling in and it's going through your Lena machine, it's gonna. You know, I think that you're going to be reflecting things that other people don't, because you're observing in a way that. That most people don't. And that comes with feeling deeply too.

[Lena Dunham]

It does. And I've realized a lot. Thank you for saying that. And something I've realized is part of the reason that I was so sort of obsessive. I always felt like an outsider. Whether I was or whether I wasn't. I always felt like I was kind of watching the room from the ceiling and also kind of recording things as I went. And so a lot of my writing has been just an effort to understand other people, to understand human behavior, to understand the things that are confusing to me in life. And that is very. I think that it's taken me a while to realize that part of sort of this obsessive cataloging actually comes from not necessarily feeling like. Cause if you're in the middle of the scene raging, all you have is, like your great memories of dancing in champagne. But I was always. And you know, there's that Nora Ephron book, Wallflower at the Orgy. I always felt like the wallflower at the orgy. I was not the central participant in the orgy.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Same same. Which is. Which is part of why I think I was susceptible. Not that I was manipulated, but susceptible to making decisions that were not great. Because I was like, the prom king is looking at me.

[Lena Dunham]

What I would have had.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, I mean, I would have

[Lena Dunham]

and did have the same reaction anytime someone who seemed like they had any authority looked at me. Whether it was with romantic part, whether it was professional, whether it was the doctors, anyone who seemed like they came in and knew what the fuck was going on. I went, okay, I'm with you. And I often found Myself in situations that did not feel safe as a result and a huge part of adulthood. And I wonder if you feel this has been trusting my own intuition and also not being so dissociated often. It wasn't that I was going, I've got a bad feeling. And writing the book, I thought this is like the girl who goes into the basement in the horror movie and you go, don't go in there.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Lena Dunham]

But she's a slut, so she has to die. That's literally what it feels like. And some level of starting to actually not just trust me on instincts, but actually tap into the part of myself that has them. There was a long time where I thought I just have bad intuition. Like I must not really have this thing that everyone else has. But I think sometimes we trust it. We don't trust ourselves. And then it takes a really long time to get that back. And I'm curious. I was thinking about you because someone asked me recently, like, what's something people don't understand about you? And I was like, even though I made this show that was very sex forward and in conversation about it, I'm actually kind of shy and a little bit of a prude. And I was. And it's interesting when you're known for, you know, people used to come up to me and be like, here are my sex stories. Or men would feel really comfortable talking to me in this kind of like body bordering on inappropriate way because they thought, she's cool, she can handle it. And actually I have this part of me that's just like a nervous kid and is like, what you want me to do? What? And I wonder if you relate to that at all. I do.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And I think.

[Lena Dunham]

Not to say you're a prude.

[Monica Lewinsky]

No, no. I mean, I am sometimes, but I have a really bawdy sense of humor and that sometimes throws people because I'll sort of seem prudish or prim.

[Lena Dunham]

And then I'm like, well, you're also very self aware and you're also very. What I love about the way you move in the public world is like you're not afraid to make the joke. I always had the instinct. I want to say the thing before anybody else does, but you do it in a really elegant way.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, thank you. It's interesting because what. What's coming up for me And I wonder about. I know you've talked about having had sexual violations younger and you're. Even though you're almost 40.

[Lena Dunham]

Not almost 40. I'm a couple months away, so I'M still cashing those 39 chips.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. So still a baby. So much younger than me. I'm 52. But generationally, we didn't have, like, the kids growing up now. There's language for everything. There's observation. And so I think that we. We sort of came up in a time where we did just dissociate. And so it's just very interesting to me to watch women of this, sort of like Gen X millennial women grappling with these things that defined our lives and older generations too, but they don't even look at it.

[Lena Dunham]

They're like, we didn't. Around your kind of first brush with Publix, we didn't have any words for kind of complicated power dynamics.

[Monica Lewinsky]

No slut, shaming, fat shaming. None of it.

[Lena Dunham]

None of it. It was all free. And then, you know, I am always so thrilled when I meet younger women who have all of this language to define. And not that it makes being a young woman easier, but at least means we have a way to actually communicate our experiences. And, you know, my parents were as. As I said they were. They really told me, but I thought sexual assault was someone bops you over the head and drags you into an alley. And of course, it can be that, but I didn't understand. I mean, I talked in my first book about my experience of being raped in college and how that was an experience I didn't even have a name for because I knew the person and because I had chosen to drink, and I had chosen to drink after I took a weird pill that my friend had. And so I thought, everything that's happened, I have brought upon myself. And I remember the feeling of, like, sitting in the bathtub from midnight to noon the next day, just, like, staring ahead. And it took a friend, me recounting the experience and her giving me words for it. And even then, when I wrote about it in my book in 2014, it was still a period of time where it was okay to debate whether what was being described was a. My biggest fear was that people would go, this actually isn't what she says it is. She brought it upon herself. And then those were exactly the conversations. I mean, I was asked those kinds of questions. I would remember going on a radio show in Boston, someone going, do you feel, though, because you were drinking that you can't? And now we. I'm so. I'm so glad that there are.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

Words for it. Right. They're hard words, but there's words.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. I mean, I'm very curious to See, sort of with these younger generations, like, what does their trauma. I mean, they'll have trauma from COVID like, oh, my God, high school, during COVID But what does their trauma look like? Because it had names. And so did they sort of dissociate less? I don't know.

[Lena Dunham]

Could they identify things in the moment? Could they. Did they have words to say, no, I don't want that. No, I don't like that. Cause for me, an issue was just. I wasn't even in my body enough to be able to say. I mean, I remember in that incident saying the word no and thinking it was a really big deal to say. I had never really had an experience in my life where I said no and someone didn't listen. And how. What it was, you know, the physical version of I can say whatever I want to you and realizing that I didn't have that power that maybe I felt that I had. And it was very early in my. I was a late, very late bloomer.

[Monica Lewinsky]

How old were you again, if you don't mind?

[Lena Dunham]

Me? No, of course I was 20, but I had lost my virginity maybe four months earlier. It was so new to me. I was still someone who had just gotten their learner's permit. And so it defined everything that came after. Because I didn't have any positive memories to look back on. I had, like, awkwardly losing my virginity in a dorm room and then that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Lena Dunham]

And those are. So that's not enough to have, like, as you said, files, memories of positive sexual experiences. And so after that, I didn't really know that it was supposed I knew. Okay. Some people seem to think this feels good. Some people seem to like it. Maybe if I practice enough, I can get there. But I sort of thought about sex like, okay, you hold your nose and you jump on in. And it took me a really long time. And it's interesting to look back on girls because I realize all of the sex, even though there's lots of it and many iterations, is awkward, embarrassing, bordering on terrifying. There's not a lot of depictions of sexual pleasure there. Because I didn't really know. Yeah, I didn't really know.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Do you think it's interesting because you're sort of painting this picture of a young woman who, from emotional reaction is With a lot of different people for different, you know, sort of the. You're interested. Okay, let's go.

[Lena Dunham]

Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And also sort of the kind of the prudish. And so. And having had this experience, does it feel to you like you were almost choosing these things so you were in control.

[Lena Dunham]

I do think that. And I think something that I've connected with other women about is the idea that if you have a really traumatic experience and then you sort of reify it by kind of choosing it in different ways, that somehow you've erased the one that came before. Like, you can change the past by saying, but I made all of these choices, and that was one of them. And I think as a. As anyone realizing your own powerlessness and that other people can make choices that you reject, and they can do that. You can say no when someone can do it anyway, is a real turning point in life, was for me, and also, I was lucky that I didn't come from a family where people were abusive to each other. I didn't come from a family where I was hit or where I was screamed at. And so I came from a family that was pretty emotionally engaged and gentle. And so it really. And I wasn't someone who had, like, witnessed violence in any way. And so it was really. And that's late 20, to kind of figure out that that's what the world looks like. But it felt like at the time, it felt like there was the time before and there was the time after. And I know that, you know, that feeling, which is like, three days ago, my life was normal, and now it's not. And. And.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And it'll never be the same again.

[Lena Dunham]

Yeah. And there's a lot of grief in that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. And I. And I think. I think one of the things that's really interesting about some of the public conversations we seem to be having, or at least Instagram memes I get, but is, like, around this sort of fullness of grief that we're in the same way that PTSD sort of was only for a veteran, you know, someone who had seen war, who was in a tsunami or, you know what. And now we understand the many layers. I think we're seeing that about grief. It's not just death. And no. And we're never taught. I think that's a thing, too. We're not taught how to grieve.

[Lena Dunham]

Well, we also live in a culture that's so avoidant about. I mean, if you think about it, all we want to do is look young, stay fit, and avoid the inevitable thing. I think, like, having illness in my life at a young age has actually been a very amazing teacher in that I had to get comfortable with the idea that our bodies are always in some way moving. I mean, we sort of. We have our youth and we grow, and then we're kind of decaying as we live, and it's actually okay. And I think some of the healthiest cultures have a relationship. It's very Western to pretend that death isn't happening. And a lot of the cultures where there is kind of the most full spiritual practice are actually looking at that all the time. There's terms for what it is to kind of look at death or look at change and then rejoice in what you have. But we aren't taught to grieve. And we're also taught this kind of. Kind of Pollyannish positivity. And then we. And I don't know about you, but, like, there are things that I feel sometimes that I've dealt with, and then I'll be like, you know, I was out of New York for a lot of years in London, and then I came back for work, and I was, like, standing on a street corner. It was like, just the way the wind blew, and there was a smell in the air, and it was a time of year. And suddenly I was like, I'm crying. Because it just reminded me of a time in my life where things changed rapidly. And you can be really happy in your life and also accept that there are certain things that you lost, that maybe there's so many things in all of our lives that just aren't fair and that are hard to assign reason to and that we might feel. We might feel intermittent grief about that

[Monica Lewinsky]

for or two things at once. I mean, I think what comes up for me is a memory of. There's, like, this block of highway going to Pasadena. And in my dark decade, I would drive that stretch of highway a lot.

[Lena Dunham]

Just to be by yourself?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, more just to take up time of the day, because I had no purpose. And so it was like, okay, what am I gonna do to get through today? All right, so I belong to a gym out there. I would go to the movies out there because at least that would take 45 minutes, you know, at least each way. And I had this experience of. Of being back on the highway. And exactly as you're talking about the sort of the. There was something. I hadn't been on it in a long time. I used to be on it so much. And the moment of holding both the gratitude for how much things had changed, but the sorrow for, like, what that life.

[Lena Dunham]

That life. And also that huge chunk of your life, which, like, this beautiful, capable person felt like, I just need to take up 45 minutes so I can. I mean, did you have that sort of feeling where you're like, okay, I guess that I just want to get through the day so I can get back in bed.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. I mean, my depression has always. My depression and my trauma, however they mix, has. I don't know why. I've just. Maybe I could count five times that I couldn't get out of bed.

[Lena Dunham]

Wow.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So I just. That's amazing. Maybe it's because being in bed would be with myself too much.

[Lena Dunham]

Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Or Right. So.

[Lena Dunham]

So actually being in the world and trying to fill that time was distracting.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Was healthier for me.

[Lena Dunham]

Of course. And what's interesting is, you know, what you're describing. I'm driving, I'm going to the gym, I'm going to the movies. It sounds like a very full life. But for you, it actually wasn't because. And do you. I'm sure you've talked about this publicly, but was there a moment where you. You had your dark decade and was there. Do you. Can you point to a specific kind of turning point where you were like, this is. Or did you just look out at the vista one day and go, this has changed?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, you know, I think that there was a period that. I don't know that there was one moment. I think there were a number of things that sort of lined up in a period of doing this work on myself in my dark decade. And I had to. I think probably the biggest lesson, aside from, like, forgiving myself all the other, you know, the stuff we all hear. Yeah. Was having to reconcile. I was not going to be able to get rid of public Monica Lewinsky and my history, and I had to integrate her and I had to accept her. And so that was sort of the deep work, the kind of. Then the resonance consciousness work of, like, trying to heal my field energetically from what had happened.

[Lena Dunham]

Heal your nervous system, heal the space around you. Exactly. What's so beautiful, though, is in sort of like swallowing up the public Monica Lewinsky and going, I'm going to make her a part of my life. You freed a lot of space for other people. Everyone is dealing with a moment. Someone asked me because I describe a moment of very deep shame in the book and how hard it was for me to even look at it. And they said, like, do you feel like you've forgiven yourself? And I was like, what I wanted to express wasn't even, have I forgiven myself or not, but that it's okay to have something that you wish had never happened. You feel either you betrayed yourself, you betrayed your values, you betrayed someone you love, and also acknowledge that, connect to it and still believe that you are a person who is worthy of happiness and worthy of a big full life.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. What was the moment?

[Lena Dunham]

The moment was one moment when I said something publicly. Most of the time when people responded to things I said publicly, it was like, I look back and I'm like, that is the silliest thing I've ever heard. Like, it was just like a girl saying girl stuff. But there was one thing that really did affect other people. And I sort of only hint at it in the book because I feel like I wanna also respect their privacy. But it was a moment where I said something because I was. For so many different reasons, I was so disconnected from my own center that I said something that actually really didn't connect to who I am and what I.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, which is human, which we all do.

[Lena Dunham]

And it happens.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's just not always recorded.

[Lena Dunham]

It happens and it was recorded. And it was just, you know, a moment where I didn't fully live my own values and in the process hurt other people. And, you know, it's funny, when I wrote about it in the book, because I didn't name it, my father was like, you're making it sound like you murdered somebody. And I was like, I didn't. But I did something that was like really thoughtless, careless and regrettable. But I also had to get to. I think we have these two modes as people, which is you either want to be defensive and excuse something, or we want to pulverize ourselves the rest of time. Like, you know, like flogging their back

[Monica Lewinsky]

to like put on the hair shirt. The design.

[Lena Dunham]

Exactly, all of it. And it's like you can know that there are moments that you erred in a human way and try to make amends for them in the best way you know how. And also not punish yourself because, you know, punish. There's actually something, I think when you're young and you make a mistake and you want to punish yourself and punish yourself and relitigate it and re. Look at yourself and you don't realize you're like actually wasting my own precious time on this planet. Sometimes we can't control it. But wasting my own time like that is not going to give anyone back anything. And we all will be best if we all move towards our happiness. And I think for a long time I thought, well, if I experience joy or if my life is too good, then I'm not properly expressing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

That's interesting.

[Lena Dunham]

Like that, you know, I. And maybe I just didn't feel for a long time. I just and this is something that I'm still examining. Why did I not feel worthy of it? And why did I sort of reaffirm that in so many different ways and find. And the thing you said about that, it's been about sort of making peace with this public self.

[Monica Lewinsky]

What do you feel like in today's world? Sort of, what is woman in today's world? Like, how do we understand feminism right now? I know those are, like, really big

[Lena Dunham]

questions, but they're like, the questions because it's interesting. And I, you know, I came from a household where the kind of feminism was sort of in the fabric of what it was. You know, my mom was part of this group called WAC Women's Action Coalition, which was a downtown group of, like, cool artist ladies who would go and, you know, hold hands around abortion clinics and help usher people in or protest. And, you know, I was, like, protesting things in D.C. when I was a little kid, and I did not know what I was protesting. I was just there with a button. I have a shirt that's like, you know, says women's Action Coalition with, like, a Barbara Kruger image of women being hauled to jail. Like, in the Suffragette women being hauled to jail. Like, it was a big conversation, but also we now know how limited that conversation was, because even an image of suffragettes is like, those are women who were really fighting hard for the rights of a very specific kind of woman while they were not fighting for women of color's right to vote. So we know that even this sort of second wave feminism that felt like such a defining characteristic of my youth was not, as we now know, the word intersectional was not touching on those ideas. And then when I was doing girls, feminism kind of became this, like, poppy commodified. Like, there was a period of time where every week I was getting sent, like, underpants that said feminist, a sweater that said, I feel like all I had in my closet for, like, six years were, like, free things that said, like, I am a feminist. The future is female.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right?

[Lena Dunham]

And then, like any poppy moment or it started to feel like a trend, and it all started to feel, I think, very hollow for people. And also, you know, the MeToo movement was such a complicated moment where women were not only confronting men, but also confronting each other. Other, and the way that they had failed each other. And then we moved past that. And what's interesting now is these conversations about. Now we have more conversations than ever about what gender is, but also this sort of, to use a very Internet word, gatekeeping of what Being female is. Which is this kind of, you know, we know the word terf. Like, what it is to kind of say, if you haven't been female in this extremely specific way that is. Involves biology, then you are not welcome at this party.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I had Dylan Mulvaney on recently, and, you know, it's an amazing. Her story is amazing. And I think what she's.

[Lena Dunham]

She's incredible. And what she experienced also publicly. Publicly. And she did it so elegantly.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Lena Dunham]

And as someone who.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But not without a cost.

[Lena Dunham]

Not without a cost. And, you know, as someone who has, you know, I have multiple nuclear trans family members. It's a big. It's been a big education for me to see, to be around that. I think, you know, I got to go speak at Trans Day of visibility in D.C. last year with this amazing group called the Christopher Street Project. And the thing I expressed was just how having a trans sibling, having trans people in my life has really opened up in this most expansive way. It's like I feel like I see in 4D now about the possibilities of what all of us hold this incredibly complicated. Each of us have our own specific gender that has to do with our experiences. That has to do with how we felt as little kids. That has to do with how we see ourselves, how we see other people, how we want to interact. And so I think it's interesting right now, feminism has never been more multifaceted and nuanced and expansive, but it's also deeply under threat. And we're having these conversations, yet can't seem to dictate actual laws that affect our bodies. And so it's a really, really. It's always a complicated time to be a woman, but it's a very. I think, a very complicated. But has a real rich vein of possibility, at least for dialogue. I'm curious how you feel.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I think terrified in some ways, because it feels to me as if. I think, you know, rolling Back Row felt like to me, oh, this is the first time we've actually really gone backwards.

[Lena Dunham]

I had the exact same feeling.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And so I think that for Gen X, it was like, well, just keeps. You know, we just keep getting more and more. And we're all working towards having more and more. And I had seen such complicated angles of feminism, of course, you know, and

[Lena Dunham]

you'd seen people who considered themselves feminists.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Exactly.

[Lena Dunham]

Turn on you. You had people who were ubiquitous, sort of powerful women, like, not honor your story.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. And so I think that there's. It feels terrifying in that way. And I guess I sometimes worry about. I feel like with women, it's almost the same as Democrats. Like, we just eat our own, and we just get in our own way so often. But I also feel, you know, that we are going to have to find a way forward. I just don't.

[Lena Dunham]

You have to find a way forward. And, you know, a friend of mine recently said she was like, I think women do so much shaming of each other. You know how there's so much. I see with my friends who are moms, the amount of judgment people feel comfortable placing on each other's parenting and not in these big. You know, I thought judgment on parenting was like, don't slap your kid in public.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, yeah. But it's like, oh, no, no.

[Lena Dunham]

It's like, are you breastfeeding? How did you hold your child? Where did they sleep?

[Monica Lewinsky]

What kind of birth did you have?

[Lena Dunham]

All of it. And it's like, we want to just flay each other for these choices that are super personal. Women who live a certain kind of life are judgmental of women that they consider to be trad wives and women that they consider. And our inability to sort of, like, link arms and look at each other. And also, I think there was a real moment that was really important, which is when people started kind of calling out the idea of, like, white feminism or exclusive feminism and how defensive people got. And I always felt like if somebody had something to say about the limitations of my worldview, I was really interested to hear it. Because part of being human is wanting to expand and expand and expand, not contract. And so when I see people become so defensive and unable to hear other women, it makes me. I just think they're missing out on something that's really positive.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, I think one of the things that I had not understood until the last few years, till some of these conversations, was I think I naively thought of the patriarchy of just being men, you know, just being men, sort of ruling and controlling and all of those things. And the reality is that it's so much more layered, that women play a part in keeping the patriarchy going. So I think the change is gonna have to be enormous. I don't know what the right. I don't know what the right strategy is. I don't know. I don't know.

[Lena Dunham]

I don't think anyone has the roadmap. I think it involves collaboration, and collaboration's hard.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Yeah. So the last question I ask everybody is in. You know, we use a very elastic definition here at reclaiming, but is there anything you are currently. I Mean, it feels silly because your memoir is that. But anything that you are currently working on reclaiming and it could be a thing, an emotion, a hobby, anything.

[Lena Dunham]

It's such a great question. I think recently I've been working really hard on reclaiming. You know, I worked really hard to get back my sense of joy in my work and my sense of freedom in my art. And lately I've really been reclaiming, like, who I was when I was a little kid. Like that feeling of just feeling like you could sit in your room forever, dreaming, thinking, you know, I have a lot. I have pet pigs and rabbits. I love to paint. I love to dance. And these things that sort of go away when you enter the adult world and you become. You start to take on other people's definitions of achievement. You take on other people's definitions of what it is to be an appropriate adult. And that part of me. I had so much fun just being with myself and my own mind. And, you know, if I'm lucky enough to be a parent, that is what the thing I would want to hold onto most in my children. I just think it's why I love having friends with kids is just to be with that imagination. And I think that has been a sort of recent approaching 40 joyful reclamation that is ongoing. And I hear that voice in my head that's like, what should you be doing right now? It should be more efficient. You should be, you know, you should be behaving X, Y or Z way and just really leaning into that playful, happy confidence that we have before it sort of gets grabbed from us. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Well, you can feel freedom on you.

[Lena Dunham]

That's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me. That's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I'm excited to finish reading Fame 6. Thank you for starting. Thank you. This was so great.

[Lena Dunham]

I love talking to you and I just want to say I deeply admire you. If I was the queen, you would be a dame. You would have a big pin and you'd be a dame and you'd have. And I just am so happy. I can smell freedom on you. And I love that you are so. You're so present and you're so warm and so many people would take those experiences and calcify and shut down and like, thank you for this space and for who you are.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Thanks, Lena.

[Lena Dunham]

Thank you, Monica.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Now I gotta give you your crystal out there too.

[Lena Dunham]

You gotta give you. I get a crystal? Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It.