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- [00:06]
A
I'm actually really coming to terms with as an adult because there's so many like ricocheting effects from the way that I was raised that I find in like personal relationships where I really do chameleon to behavior in the room. So like right now, if all of a sudden your body language changed and you seemed upset with me, I would immediately go into fight or flight and I would have to actively work and do the therapy I've done to remove my sense of worry about what I could have done to upse because that was what I was taught to do as a child. My father would immediately flip on a dime and, you know, say things that he didn't necessarily mean. And I immediately, as a child, you're like, what did I just do to make him do that? This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [01:11]
B
Madeline, welcome to Reclaiming.
- [01:14]
A
Thank you for having me.
- [01:15]
B
Yeah, I. I'm actually going to dive right in because ever since I learned this about you, it has. I think it might have even triggered me. But I just so curious because I am a rejection sensitive person. Maybe even rejection sensitive dysphoria, maybe I might even have that. I don't know. I tried to self diagnose, but when I learned that you went on 250 auditions before you landed Riverdale.
- [01:45]
A
Yeah.
- [01:46]
B
How did you find yourself again after each incident and then show back up again?
- [01:55]
A
It was honestly so much less heartbreaking at the beginning of my career because it's just par for the course. When you're a new actress in Hollywood, you don't expect to book anything. I mean, I always knew that I had the calling to it. I always knew that this is what I was supposed to be doing, but I never thought it would be easy. So in the beginning it was like every rejection was like, okay, let me get the note. Let me find out why it didn't work. Let me take notes. I had a notebook. I would keep track of the casting director's name. If they told me any personal facts about themselves, any notes they gave me on the character. And I'd keep all of that in a notebook so I could kind of use that to my advantage moving forward. It became a lot harder to receive rejection like at this point in my career now because okay. There's, you know, when you're going on. There's certain levels of callbacks where, like, I was going on pre reads, which is, like, before you even get an audition. So I'm pre reading with a casting associate. Sometimes they're not even recording it, and they're just, like, seeing if you're good. So it's like a pre read is like, you're not even. The door's not even open yet. Now the door is fully open. And I'm usually doing, like, a director meeting or a callback or whatever. So you've got to be really in love with the material. And for me to do the job, I have to love the character. I have to be obsessed with the character. And so I become obsessed, and I, like, understand everything about them, and I fall in love, and then I've got to learn to walk away. And that's much harder, I think.
- [03:01]
B
Now that's really interesting. I've seen that, and I know you're producing, too, and we'll talk about that later on. But it's one of the facets of producing that's been interesting to me to see because I sort of came into the industry late in my career, if you will, and so I get to see things from a very different lens. But the whole. You fall in love with the show. You're spending so much time with the writer and showrunner trying to create the pitch, and you're, you know, every moment, every everything, and you get in there and then it doesn't go. And I just. It's interesting because I sort of feel in some ways like the industry is weirdly designed to kill creativity, in a sense, because I find myself now, and I haven't even been doing this very long, but I'll find myself sort of thinking, okay, I'm not going to invent as much as I did last time, because that felt like such a. Such a devastation. And I'm not even the writer. I'm just a producer.
- [04:03]
A
So I think protection also can be, like, a thief of creativity, though, in a way, I think. Yes. We're in a weird time in the industry in general where I do find we're not really taking risks like we used to, because I get studio mandates, right? And the studio mandates is like, what's the next Stranger Things? What's the next this? And it's like, what if we make something completely original that no one's ever seen before? Like, Stranger Things was when it came out in 2017 or whatever. So there's that piece of It. But also the piece of, like, that's part of the game. And I think being a producer, you have to understand that I have a piece of material that I think is probably one of the strongest things I've ever made or will make that I've pitched 20, 25 times and have gotten a lot of no's. And the no's are usually like, I don't understand it.
- [04:44]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [04:44]
A
And I'll take it. I don't understand it because it's like, okay, I can do a better job helping you understand it. But it's also. That means there's no comp. Like, a lot of the times people will be like, what's the computer? And I'm like, well, my design is to hopefully make things that are uncompable.
- [04:55]
B
Yeah.
- [04:55]
A
Like, I can say it's this meets this meets this in this universe, but that's not really a comp. I don't want to make things that have a direct relation. That's not interesting to me. And, you know, sometimes it is. But as a producer, I find it's more interesting to try to find the stories that haven't been told. There's not a lot of them anymore. Right, right. So you gotta find new iterations of old things as well. But even, like a new filmmaker on an old story is a new lens.
- [05:17]
B
Yeah. No, it's true. Or different gender orientation to certain things. But it's funny, I have a project where I got. Where my opening to the pitch is like, this is the easiest project to say no to.
- [05:29]
A
Oh, I like that opening. Honestly.
- [05:31]
B
It takes place on a ship. It's a period piece, and there are no Americans. Ooh, period piece.
- [05:35]
A
That's right now.
- [05:36]
B
And a ship.
- [05:37]
A
Right now.
- [05:37]
B
Yeah, and a ship. And no Americans.
- [05:39]
A
Well, a ship. What I like about a ship, though, producerially, is like, it's contained. So it's one set piece and period piece. And one set piece does actually remove the problem with period. So I think it's not.
- [05:49]
B
That's an interesting way to talk about it.
- [05:51]
A
Cause people usually hate period because they're like, we have to get old cars and we have to make buildings different and every background has to be dressed. So much money. If you're on a ship, it's not.
- [05:58]
B
Right. It's just costumes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
- [06:01]
A
New perspective.
- [06:02]
B
Thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah, it's so. But I. I do want to go back. First of all, I'm also just, like now stuck on the interesting fact about your notebook. Did you. Was that something you came up with yourself, or is that something you learned from someone? Cause what an interesting way to move through auditions.
- [06:20]
A
I think, honestly, my mom might have told me to do it. I had a couple auditions where I would, like, I'd call her after every single one, and I would tell her about it. And eventually I was like, man, I wish I knew what it was about this that didn't work. And she was like, I think you should start writing down the feeling you have when you finish the audition, what your relationship to the character was. Just start writing down your feelings. And I am a big writer. Like, I like to write diaries. I like to write journals. I like to write manifestations. I like to write everything. Just kind of put it out in the universe. And so I started doing it because my mom told me to. Honestly, it's always this moment.
- [06:49]
B
My mom's gonna watch this and go, oh, if only she listens to me like Madeline listens to her mom.
- [06:55]
A
Look, there are things I don't listen to my mom like the rest of us, but that one, I really did. Yeah.
- [06:59]
B
Yeah. No, that's good. It's interesting because you were, you know, not too long ago, I think you were on Call her daddy and really opened up about a lot of things in your childhood, which I want to get to, but I sort of want to set the stage a little bit before of just understanding. So you were born in South Africa, but then raised in Washington.
- [07:20]
A
No, you were born in Washington and then kind of like raised between the two places. So all my extended family is. Is and was in South Africa, but my immediate family was in America, So we would go back and forth a lot.
- [07:31]
B
Okay. And then. And did you have a South African accent? No. At all?
- [07:35]
A
Yeah, in the beginning. Because I think when you're a child, you're just. You're learning how to speak from your parents. So I would have, like, a pretty thick accent, especially on particular words.
- [07:42]
B
Okay.
- [07:43]
A
I have. I cannot get rid of the word vitamin. It will always be vitamin to me. People can say vitamin. I don't care. It's vitamin in my head. It'll never change. But for the most part, everything else changed. I had a. A South African accent. And then I quickly learned that the less different I can be as a child, the better. And I was redhead. I was South African. I was not raised with religion, and I was raised plant based. So it was like, whatever I can remove from that scenario is the best case scenario for me.
- [08:06]
B
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Plant based. From always.
- [08:09]
A
From always. Yeah.
- [08:10]
B
Okay. And and was, has, was there a point? Like what was that like growing up? I mean, sort of friends are going to McDonald's and other things. Did you have a desire to have it?
- [08:20]
A
Of course. I wanted to be like everybody else. Okay. And I couldn't be happy been less like everybody else. And it's funny now, the things that I'm praised for as an adult, like my red hair or like my, you know, whatever, my scientific connections. Thank you. Are the things that you're kind of. I was bullied for as a kid. So I think I learned like that's just part for the course probably. But yeah, of course I wanted to be like everybody else and I was curious about the taste of things and. But I think there's like a. Not to get too into the weeds with animal activism, but there is like a separation for children between what they're eating and what it actually is. And my parents gave me that knowledge at a young age and said, you make that decision.
- [08:52]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [08:52]
A
And I was like, I don't want to eat a baby chicken. You know, when you give children who are so filled with compassion and so sentient that information and that knowledge, like, I don't know if they would choose that. So they gave me the option. My parents are really good about giving me the option for everything. Okay. They gave me every religious text and said, if you want to read it, here you go. We're not telling you what you need to believe in. We're going to give you everything and you can decide. We're going to give you the option to eat whatever you want to eat. We're going to give you all the information. You can decide. So they gave me a lot of autonomy at a very young age.
- [09:19]
B
And do you feel like that's something that's threaded? I mean, to me you're still young, but do you feel like that to me as well? Okay, good. But do you feel like that's something that's sort of threaded throughout your life or shaped how you are in ways of this sense of. Because I've seen, it's interesting, I've seen this. My brother and sister in law. I think one of the things of helping for my niece and nephew to develop into their own people was a lot about choice. You know, do you want this or do you want that? Do you know which way? But I'm just curious how you think that helped your sense of self.
- [09:56]
A
Ironically, I am one of the most indecisive people that I know in a lot of ways in my life. And I Because I. But then there's also a level of autonomy that I seek and crave in my career, I think, because of that. So that's what led me to producing, I think, is that they gave me options. When I was a kid, I was able to make decisions that I don't think most kids could make. But I didn't want to go to dance class that day. I didn't have to go to dance class if I felt like. I mean, I never really got sick as a child, you know, but I. But I was given the option if I wanted a sick day. You haven't taken one this semester. Do you want to stay at home? Like, there's a lot of trust involved, and I think that made me a very trusting person, which also has, you know, been tough for me in a city like la. Yeah, so there's a lot of, like, tough in. In lots of different cities as an adult, you know. So I think there's been really great positives to that that have made me, like, really chase and crave autonomy in my career as a. As a woman in Hollywood. And then there's also been things that I think when you're a kid and you learn, you know, anything your parents love, you're gonna, like, naturally go away from. So there's parts of me where it's like, in my personal life, I don't wanna make decisions. I'll call my friends and be like, where do you wanna go to dinner? I'm not making a decision.
- [10:58]
B
Yeah, no. That's interesting. I mean, I could see that. I think I remember there was a period of time for me where I was trying to unpack and understand discipline more of, like, that I liked having all this freedom, but at the same time, there's a rigidity and a safety and a comfor feeling in discipline. And so I'm just hearing you about the indecisiveness and the opposite and just wondering if that was in some ways just the reaction, Right. To kind of maybe having wanted someone else to make the decision.
- [11:33]
A
Yeah, I think, you know, in a lot of ways I was very blessed by that because I, for the most part, didn't really rebel against decision. But there was a period of time in my life where I was, like, very rebellious when I moved to la. And I had no discipline and no format and no. No like, real structure to my life. But I think that was, like, a necessary evil for me to conquer, to then decide what version of myself I want to be. Right.
- [11:56]
B
Well, I think so many people go through that Some people do it in high school, some people when they go to college, some people when they move away from home for the first time or to a city especially like LA that is full of dreams and distraction.
- [12:13]
A
I got really lucky though. My mom created a dialogue with me where like nothing was wrong, I could tell her everything. There was never any judgment and it was always like very safe. It was almost like having a built in therapist. She would like remove bias sometimes, honestly.
- [12:25]
B
Really?
- [12:26]
A
Yeah.
- [12:26]
B
Okay, but in what? Like, explain that to me.
- [12:29]
A
Like, let's say I called her and I was like, oh, I tried this drug and I'm 18 years old. And like, this is how I felt. She'd be like, wow, and how did you feel? And did you feel safe? And what was the experience like? And who were you with? And it was never like, how dare you do this thing? It was like, okay, cool. And like, what did you learn from that? And would you want to do it again? And you know, was it to happen? It was more like just so much trust in me innately as a human being that I know what's right, that she just trusted me enough to have a normal relationship with me. And of course there was discipline as a child, but at a certain point when I've moved away from home, there's nothing she can actually do. So she's like, I'd rather be her friend, I'd rather be in her corner than not.
- [13:04]
B
Yeah. What I was thinking about is you're talking about how understanding your mom is and almost therapist like. And you know, there's that point. I don't know if you've gotten there yet, but there's a point in us growing up where we sort of start to realize and see, oh, our parents were kids at one point. Right. And for me, that was a really pivotal moment in my relationship. I think of just with both of my parents separately and, and both of my step parents, you know, just that sense of, oh, they're not just this figure, they also have this dimension to them. And so do you feel like in, like if you've gotten to that point, do you feel like you understand why your mom is that way?
- [13:52]
A
I unfortunately got to that point very early in my life because I grew up with a father that acted like a child often, if I'm being honest. So I very early learned to rationalize behavior that shouldn't have been rationalized and like, and excuse things and find excuses for things because I had compassion for my dad. So I learned that like woefully early as a child. But I do see how both of them got to where they are. I see how my mom, her two favorite words are peace and tranquility. So she would always say that to me as a young child. And yeah, I see exactly how she got there. She has. It's also interesting because her parents are. My grandfather was a really accomplished blood doctor in South Africa, and my grandma was a stay at home mom to six children.
- [14:38]
B
Six. Wow.
- [14:39]
A
Six children all by herself. And, you know, they had, you know, in front of the kids, a really beautiful, happy, healthy relationship. And, you know, behind the closed doors, like, they weren't in love. But my mom saw this structure of life and was like, I'm gonna provide my kids with what I had.
- [14:53]
B
Right.
- [14:53]
A
But as she got older, she was like, oh, they weren't in love. You know, my grandma had like this illustrious love life when my. When my grandfather left her for somebody else. And so you kind of start finding out these things and you're like, oh, you didn't have what you thought you had, but the structure that you were given, you wanted to bring to me. So she kind of always tried to creep to create that structure for us. Right? Yeah.
- [15:10]
B
And do you think with her being as sensitive as she is, that there might have been a part of her that was somehow able to feel or sense the inauthenticity, like, that she wanted to believe it, or do you think she just.
- [15:22]
A
I think she just bought into it, honestly. Yeah, there's a really, like. A really, like.
- [15:26]
B
Well, who wouldn't want that, right?
- [15:28]
A
Don't we all? Yeah. Even my therapist is like, I'm gonna fuck up my kid. You know what I mean? Even my therapist says that. And she's like the most strong, smart, like, clear woman. But I think my mom has this kind of beautiful quality of like a dreamlike wonder where she's very easily. She can believe things. And I think that's really wonderful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, It's.
- [15:46]
B
My mom is very positive in so many different ways. And so, you know, sometimes I will say to the extreme of Pollyanna, ish, but it's saved my life at times, you know, her ability to sort of be this beacon of hope, you know, in really dark times. So I think that there can be. There's such a balance, you know, such a balance of finding.
- [16:13]
A
And I think, you know, because of my dad, my mom really championed positivity and really championed kind of being two parents. So she wore a lot of different hats because she wanted to, like, make sure that we didn't feel like There was a gap in her in our household.
- [16:25]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [16:26]
A
Yeah.
- [16:26]
B
Yeah. Even that's interesting because normally that's, I think, what you see or hear more in families where they've gotten divorced.
- [16:36]
A
Right.
- [16:38]
B
Right. Yeah. Why choose a sleep number Smart bed.
- [16:44]
A
Can I make my sight softer? Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?
- [16:50]
B
Sleep number does that cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side. Your sleep number setting. Enjoy personalized comfort for better sleep night after night. And now, during our President's day sale, take 50% off our limited edition bed plus free premium delivery with any bed and base ends Monday only at a Sleep number store or sleepnumber.com. I'm curious about the, you know, the sort of emotional landscape of your childhood that way. And I'm also curious because you did talk about it for the first time a few months ago, what that's been like for you too.
- [17:32]
A
I can talk about both.
- [17:33]
B
Okay, great.
- [17:33]
A
The emotional landscape of my childhood I'm actually really coming to terms with as an adult because there's so many, like, ricocheting effects from the way that I was raised that I find in, like, personal relationships where even down to I really do chameleon to behavior in the room. So, like right now, if all of a sudden your body language changed and you seemed upset with me, I would immediately go into fight or flight, and I would have to actively work and do the therapy I've done to remove my sense of worry about what I could have done to upset you, because that was what I was taught to do as a child. My father would immediately flip on a dime and, you know, say things that he didn't necessarily mean. And I immediately, as a child, you're like, what did I just do to make him do that? And so there is this level of fight or flight that I'm still working through as an adult. I think I've got a fairly good grasp on it. A lot of that has to do with the people that are around me who hold me down and the kind of aftermath of call her daddy my dad, when I called him and told him, I called him right after I did the podcast and he was, like, crying on the phone and he was like, thank you for loving me.
- [18:36]
B
Oh.
- [18:37]
A
So it was a really beautiful, sentient moment. Yeah.
- [18:39]
B
Wow.
- [18:40]
A
Yeah.
- [18:41]
B
Did you struggle at all with any guilt about stepping into talking about those private things publicly or, you know, we're living in. Yeah.
- [18:52]
A
I called my mom and my brother first and I was like, are you comfortable with me sharing this. I did not call my dad because it's my story. But I was like, this does affect the way if people. If people who live where they live hear it, they now know something about my dad that, like, they maybe didn't know before. Does that affect your life? You know, to my brother. Does that affect your life? To my mom. And both of the responses where this is your story, too, you can share it.
- [19:11]
B
Yeah.
- [19:12]
A
And I think that's something I've always struggled with, is it feels like I'm trying to protect a person because it's their story, but it is also my story. It is also part of what made me who I am today, and I think part of it is what made me an artist, if I'm being honest with you. Like, there was so much escapism I was craving as a child, whether it be through extracurricular activities or movies that I wanted. I sought that so heavily as an adult.
- [19:34]
B
Yeah.
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A
I sought being other people as an adult because I felt safer there. So there's, like, a lot of really, like, interesting parallels that came from my childhood environment that I'm, like, strangely thankful for.
- [19:45]
B
Yeah. No, I mean, I think when we've survived through difficult things, I think there's part of being able to survive and part of the survival. Right. Is how do we tell the story of ourselves to ourself?
- [19:59]
A
Mm. That's really beautiful.
- [20:00]
B
And so I think that's, in a way, kind of what you're talking about, is that these pieces that might have been reflective of so much pain and are still reflective of that, that also served to make you who you are today.
- [20:14]
A
Absolutely.
- [20:15]
B
And you see the positives.
- [20:16]
A
I also think, like, after doing the podcast last year, the overwhelming amount of messages I got from people saying, like, I grew up with that as well, and I've never really heard someone talk about that. And I really appreciate you. Like, you know, my father, you know, did that exact thing today. And I feel like I'm not alone right now. Like, I've made it so meaningful. It was terrifying to talk about because you don't want to hurt the person that you love feelings. At the same time, though, it seemed to really matter to a larger group of people.
- [20:44]
B
Alan Cumming was actually my very first guest. He's been a good friend for now 26 years.
- [20:50]
A
He seems like the best person up here.
- [20:52]
B
He is.
- [20:52]
A
He truly is.
- [20:54]
B
He's just the yummiest. And. But it's interesting because he was talking a lot about the abuse, physical abuse and emotional abuse that he suffered at the hands of his father and that he and his brother and his mom. And so. And he was saying how in coming out and telling his story in his memoir, that it unlocks something for both his mom and his brother too, you know, in that way of. That there is. Because it's a different kind of, you know, bringing something to light. It's one thing to bring something to light in a circle of your, you know, your peers or your society or your community. And it's another to do it to strangers, you know, but it does do you know, I mean, this is where I feel like social media is such a wonderful tool, you know, because 30 years ago, you wouldn't be able to know how much you've helped other people by, you know, breaking yourself open publicly to talk about something. And so it is. I get that experience in different ways. I about talk now again, I'm mentioning my TED Talk, but just like a teacher one time said, oh, a student was having a hard time and I showed her your TED Talk and it helped. And I just thought, oh my gosh.
- [22:18]
A
Like, I impacted one person's life.
- [22:20]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it is. I'm so glad that was the response that you had.
- [22:25]
A
Yeah, I'm really. I feel very, like, I feel very blessed that it went positively because it could have also, like in my brain, because I'm a catastrophizer, because I had to be growing up, always had to be prepared for the worst case scenario, just in case it happened.
- [22:37]
B
I understand that I caught constantly reminding myself of the meme that my algorithm serves me all the time of, like, if you can overthink all the bad things, why don't you overthink all the good things that could happen? Exactly. It's such a. It is. I try to remind myself. I mean, there's so many of these things of the, you know, I think just in preparing to talk to you that I felt kinship with. Of just like the people pleasing and the. And the overthinking and the. All the negative things that you've had to go through. Madeline, that's nice. Isn't that contrast?
- [23:09]
A
I'm sure most women probably have that.
- [23:11]
B
Experience as well, so just like layers of. Yeah, I mean, a lot of women do. It's. It's so. It's really interesting. But I think too, I'm so curious because I still really struggle with this. But so much of the work that you had to do to kind of be the woman who you are today is around learning boundaries, how to set them, how to Accept them Very boundaried now. Okay, can you talk to me about that? A bit of just what that trajectory has been like for you?
- [23:45]
A
It's definitely not easy. I think especially people my age don't. They're starting to learn boundaries. But it feels like it's not a very common thing for friendships or anything otherwise. So it's really mostly about honest communication for me. I'd rather someone not beat around the bush. I just need straight, direct, honest communication. So for a time when I moved away from my parents house, I was like, nobody gets to call me. I'll call you if I wanna chat and if you don't wanna pick up, that's fine. But no one gets access to me right now. I need to focus on myself and not bring this to my new life.
- [24:14]
B
Wow.
- [24:15]
A
So that was for like about two years and now there's kind of like a policy with both my mom and my dad where they'll text me when they're thinking about me and then I call when I have time to talk. My brother and I have actually a really great relationship now where we can talk on the phone and that's really wonderful. But I am still boundaried with him.
- [24:28]
B
I mean, is he older or younger?
- [24:30]
A
Older.
- [24:31]
B
Okay.
- [24:31]
A
And he lives in Washington near my parents. And so I'm boundary with him in terms of like he'll call me and be like, if this is, you know, you need advice. I don't have space for that in my life right now. But if you just want to have a conversation, we can do that. So it's really, again it's just, just communication. It's like I don't want to be frustrated with my brother. I'm 31 years old. There's no need for us to fight. If I just tell you like, hey, I'm really overwhelmed today. I have nothing to give but I can be an ear for you. If you just want to talk, then that's the kind of boundaries that I have in my life or like with my friends if I'm really, I mean I'm not super boundary with some of my friends. Some of my friends. It's like an open door policy. I am willy nilly. But I think it's a case by case basis finding boundaries. And I also, I really do lean on my therapist pretty heavily like to decide when boundaries are important. And I think that having that really non biased person to talk to who's not your mother is good. Yeah. So I mean, but I also, I communicate boundaries. I'm not, I don't just, like, create them and then, like, stonewall somebody. I think that's important.
- [25:25]
B
It's interesting because in some ways, I feel like, you know, boundaries has become. This has become more of something that we are talking about. Right. And learning about and understanding and yet. But I feel like the word itself feels negative. Yeah, it feels negative. And there's this idea of keeping people out. And so I don't. Sometimes I wonder if that's what I struggle with. Because when I'm hearing you talk about what you say are boundaries, that feels. I don't know if this will make sense. That feels different to me than when I think about creating boundaries.
- [26:07]
A
Can I offer you perspective?
- [26:08]
B
Yes, please.
- [26:08]
A
Okay, so imagine we're in a giant field with, like, hedges around it. Right?
- [26:13]
B
Okay.
- [26:13]
A
And it's only got the hedges around it. And there's the X at the very end of the field. And you're standing at the beginning and someone else is there. You guys can both meet at the X easily. Right. Or you can put up almost like little maze walls to get there in a way that feels safer for both of you. It's all. It's not. You're saying. You're not saying no to that person. You're saying, like, this is the way that feels safest for me. This is the way that feels best for me. And I don't think of people as, like, shutting them out. I think, like, if I let you in at the capacity that you want right now, and I'm not capable of that, it's only gonna cause friction for us. And I don't wanna cause friction with you. People I love the most are the people I'm the most boundaried with.
- [26:47]
B
Yeah. I think my friend Apus. Peggy talks about it as sovereignty, you know, and so that sort of. That ability to kind of piss.
- [26:56]
A
That's cute.
- [26:56]
B
Yeah.
- [26:56]
A
It took me a second. Yeah.
- [26:58]
B
Sorry. I coined it.
- [26:59]
A
I love. But we need shirts.
- [27:01]
B
Yeah, exactly. But. Well, you know, it was one of those things where she. I mean, she said that. But she's a PhD in psychology. Had a full practice. She's not exact. I mean, I have a trauma therapist, who's my main therapist. I have a somatic therapist. I have all sorts of. I have a huge team.
- [27:17]
A
When we're done, I need a somatic therapist information. I'm really okay.
- [27:20]
B
Oh, she's amazing. It's really. Have you done it at all?
- [27:22]
A
Never. Is this the one in the west side that I keep hearing about, though?
- [27:25]
B
No, she's in New York, so I Know, so we started during the pandemic, and so we do work over zoom.
- [27:35]
A
Oh, cool.
- [27:36]
B
And then when I'm in New York, I see her in person.
- [27:38]
A
Amazing.
- [27:39]
B
So it has been. It's been fascinating to me. Fascinating because I. I've not only had the experience in session where things just move so quickly, but I've also. I think there was such a river between my inner experience and my mental thought and my physical body. And so to kind of have become so much more aware of that, of. Okay, you know, I remember. I don't know, it was like a year ago or so. I had coffee with, you know, someone I hadn't seen in. A Boy I hadn't seen in a long time. And I was, like, made a moment while we were sitting there of kind of, okay, how am I feeling right now? You know, checking in with my nervous system. And that's not something I would have done before. That's really beautiful.
- [28:36]
A
Yeah.
- [28:36]
B
And so I think that integration, when, you know, so many different kinds of traumas from so many different parts of our lives can cause separation in different ways and dissociation and all those things. And so it's just been very interesting to start to sort of stitch back together my internal and my physical or my emotional and my physical.
- [29:00]
A
It's funny, as you were saying, that I was like, I wonder how I feel when I'm around or how I would respond in that scenario. And I think historically, if I had checked in with myself, with previous partners, I would have felt that disconnect and that chaos in the fight or flight and felt like that was the right thing, because that's what I grew up with. So it is kind of like that therapy so important, because it's like, the things that you're most familiar with are not necessarily always the best things. And learning what's the right thing for you. I still live in almost a constant state of fight or flight, that every day I have to check in and be like, you're safe. You are loved. You are enough. Like, that's. It's really hard. And I think it's like, looking at you, who I think has been, like, an inspiration to so many women for so long, your story is, like, so. It's so inspirational to women. And hearing you even talking about that kind of stuff after everything you've been through and how positive you've been for female empowerment, it's like, we really are just doing our fucking best.
- [29:52]
B
Oh, my God.
- [29:53]
A
Yes. We really are. And it's like, it's so, like, I Think like beautifully sad that when you really look at a person, you're like, man, all you. You're just this beautiful little kid who just wants to be loved so badly. And we have all these, like, walls we've built because of our childhood trauma and the experiences we've had as adults. And we keep building these walls and trying to, like, protect this little kid inside of us. And when you actually remove that and just try to make that little kid feel safe is when I think you've like reached flow state. Yeah. Yeah.
- [30:20]
B
It's interesting. My stepmom always has always said that thing of. It's always an ing in that sense of like, it's always still happening.
- [30:30]
A
Oh, I love that.
- [30:31]
B
Yeah. You're always still healing. You're always still, you know, all these different things of less about this idea. And I think that's. At 52, I can say there, you know, there are things that are less problematic than they used to be, but I don't know that I'd say, oh, I'm past that. I am healed from that. It's.
- [30:55]
A
It's ever evolving.
- [30:56]
B
And so I think when you. I mean, it's exhausting, right? I mean, and it's also right. But yeah, being human, this dimension, it's exhausting.
- [31:06]
A
Get me. Get me outta here. Like Megstalter once said.
- [31:10]
B
But going back, like jumping back to something you were talking about much earlier, of having been bullied in school. So you. Then, when you were in riverdale, after your 250 rejections, now you have. Which just amazes me. I mean, like, in awe.
- [31:26]
A
I can be honest. I'm sure most actors have that many. That's not that.
- [31:29]
B
Are you serious?
- [31:30]
A
Yeah, of course. I would do like four auditions a day. Sometimes during pilot season. Back in the day when they still did that. You do five auditions a day, five days a week. You know, it's like, that's not that crazy of a number.
- [31:40]
B
I could never do that.
- [31:42]
A
Every no is closer to a yes.
- [31:45]
B
Yeah. No, I just.
- [31:47]
A
Rejection makes me stronger.
- [31:50]
B
I don't know. I think I carry it. I was thinking on the way here or this morning actually about just that I had had this. I had had this period, it was this winter break actually, of the year you were born. 1994. And I was in college. Whoa. And it was. I had this fucked up thing happen where three different boys stood me up three different times in the span of three weeks.
- [32:19]
A
Oh, what the hell.
- [32:20]
B
Yeah. And I was thinking about how there. But there have been times in the last 10 years where I've been going on a first date that night, and I've sort of started to think, oh, maybe they're not gonna show up. And, like, literally from that deep time. So that's why I sort of. I think I respond to that sense of rejection and just the ability to move forward with it.
- [32:48]
A
I think, like, when you are in this industry and you know that there's one job and there's, like, thousands of people auditioning for it, it's par for the course. I think when you're dating, it shouldn't be par for the course. And that's. I think that's maybe where the difference is.
- [33:00]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:01]
A
Like, anybody who does that is genuinely evil. I hope they all had really good excuses.
- [33:06]
B
You know, two of them I never even heard from. I don't. I. You know, it was crazy. It was really crazy. It's. All right.
- [33:15]
A
Well, you know what? I bet you they don't have podcasts, so whatever.
- [33:21]
B
Yeah, exactly. I wonder whatever happened to them, actually.
- [33:24]
A
See, this is the kind of thing that I would do, though, is that I would go home now and try to find them. Yeah.
- [33:28]
B
Oh, no.
- [33:29]
A
What are they up to? Guess what?
- [33:30]
B
If I could remember their names, you know what?
- [33:32]
A
Period. Monica. I love that.
- [33:34]
B
Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I'm definitely that. That person who.
- [33:38]
A
I certainly remember yours, let me tell you.
- [33:41]
B
Well, you know. You know, what is. I mean, I. I can't remember who I was talking about this with, but when I was. Particularly in college, I had such an insecurity about not about being somebody that was, like. I just wasn't memorable. I was always reintroducing myself to people because I just thought, oh, I'm just not that person. And so, you know, I mean, now it's become a joke of, like, be careful what you wish for.
- [34:08]
A
Yes. Everyone knows your name.
- [34:10]
B
Exactly. So you get to be in rap song.
- [34:14]
A
That's actually a really iconic thing to say, and I just think we should all take a moment for that. Like, hell, yeah. You get to be in rap songs.
- [34:20]
B
Like, okay, if only I got. What are they called? Residuals. So, hey, you know, you're in that.
- [34:28]
A
I think every actor feels that way in general right now anyway, so, my gosh.
- [34:32]
B
I know. It's true. Okay, but so you had this experience of being bullied, but then in Riverdale, Cheryl Blossom. Right. You were a bully. So talk to me about, how did you. Like, how did you step into that? What did you. Did you see anything or learn? Did it heal anything in you?
- [34:51]
A
I wouldn't say it healed anything, but it gave me a different perspective that I really appreciated. I started her bullying with trauma. I was like, what is making her behave like this? And I wouldn't say everybody behaves badly because they have something going on at home or they don't feel like themselves, but. But probably most of the time, children have something going on inside if they're treating other children badly. She certainly did. You know, she was a teenager, but she was being. Her sexuality was being pushed down by her mother. She was being told that she was a sexual deviant. She wasn't able to show who she really was. She was being, like, really kind of, like, abused by her mother. And the only way she could. I mean, she was seeking control, and the only way she could find control was by, you know, lashing out because she didn't think she was lovable. So she was like, if I don't let people try to love me, I push them away, that I'm in control. So I think finding that avenue in helped a lot. And it also helped me realize, like, that's probably where a lot of these kids were coming from is they felt a. Like, something foreign to them is always gonna be weird, right? Like, especially to children. And also, they probably had, like, something hard going on. So, like, I let it go. The hardest part to me, actually, was this one girl was so mean to me. Went on Twitter when the show came out, and I didn't even see it. My brother showed me, and she was like, I was bullied by Madeline, and all of you guys love her, and she's a bully.
- [36:14]
B
And I'm like, oh, my God.
- [36:16]
A
I would name names, but I won't because I'm not that person anymore. But three years ago, Monica, I would have been out here saying her name, but I was like, what the hell, dude? Like, you're really, like, talk about revisionist history. Seriously. Wow. That bummed me out. And then one other girl who bullied me a lot was like, that was my best friend. And I'm like, no, you were mean to me. I would have loved to be your best friend, actually.
- [36:35]
B
Yeah. Yeah, that's.
- [36:37]
A
I was in the recess playing with my scarf, talking to my scarf, because no one wanted to talk to me. But, okay, cool.
- [36:42]
B
Yeah, it's very interesting. I had a number of incidents in 98 where. So this was, like, a time period. I don't think they do it anymore. But there were a lot of entertainment shows, and they would do these interviews, and they were called Blue Dot interviews, where someone would have a blue Dot over their face. Oh, so they were a. No, but it was. I could always figure out who it was. But there were people from grade school and high school and college who sort of did these blue dot interviews that I didn't know very well, who would say things.
- [37:13]
A
Oh, they're people from your life.
- [37:14]
B
Yes. Sorry. Sorry.
- [37:16]
A
Not. Not randos.
- [37:17]
B
Yeah, no. People that I, you know, I knew. Yeah. And sometimes they said, well, I didn't know her very well, but she was, blah, blah, blah.
- [37:24]
A
And it's like, well, you obviously didn't know me. Yeah. Also, I do kind of believe, like, I think that anything under, I don't know, 18 or 16, give them a fucking pass. Like, it's not. You're still trying to figure out who you are. Like, we're so quick to make assumptions about people now, especially on the Internet. And it's like, God, take a deep breath. Like, no one knows who they are. Everyone's trying to figure it out. Obviously, someone does something absolutely horrible, for sure. But kids are just trying to figure themselves out. Even that girl. I'm like, yeah, you know, you probably are a lovely person now. I hope you are. I hope you're lovely now. Maybe you're not, but it doesn't really matter to me. But it's like, I would like to believe that most of the people who are behaving like that as children and young adults have probably come to have children now and see the difference, you know?
- [38:11]
B
Yeah. I would hope, like children, you have had a really interesting evolution with that. Right. So you had, for a long time, not wanted kids, and now you're on the kid train. I mean, not pregnant, now that we know of.
- [38:24]
A
Sorry, you heard it here first. Yeah, no, I. Yeah, I think for a long time I was like. I was kind of terrified of the idea of bringing a child into the world and giving them the same childhood that I had, if I'm being honest with you, because I think teaching a child at a young age that their love is conditional, their parents love is conditional, makes, like, a really strange relationship with love as an adult, where you're like, I'm not enough. My parent, the person who's supposed to love me the most doesn't love me. No one's going to. I was terrified that that would be my choice. That would be how I brought children to the world because of, like, the partners I chose or whatever, and just because I felt that was, like, part of my destiny. And then one day I said to my therapist, oh, man, I wish I could just have a Child with my best friend. Like, my best friend's this, like, ball of sunshine. Andy. Jane. I was like, if we could just have a friend, if we could just have, like, a baby together and raise this baby, it would be, like, the happiest baby on planet Earth. We'd give it the best life. And she's like, hey, you can. You can choose who you have a child with. You can choose who you're partnering with. And, like, as a child, you can't choose who your parents are. So the idea of, like, choice being such a big part of my childhood, like, we spoke about, but, like, that choice not being an option. Treat kind of trained me in my adult life that, like, you couldn't choose what man was in your life.
- [39:34]
B
Interesting.
- [39:35]
A
And so it's kind of like learning now, like, oh, that's fully a choice. I get to decide who I have a baby with. That is my full decision. And I can make sure that I give them an environment that is filled with love. And now I look at it, like, wow. I get to give, like, a little human, like, all the love in the world that I wanted and got. You know, occasionally not consistently, but I'll give it consistently.
- [39:57]
B
Yeah, no, it's. You know, I don't. You were talking about lovable. And I was reminded of. Because I listened to your call her daddy interview. And if you don't want to go here, especially, like, moving, you know, how you've moved forward, we don't have to talk about it, but sort of this story about in. In your dad, like, in one of his. How do you refer to it? Incidents.
- [40:22]
A
I mean, there's a technical word for it, but I'd prefer not to use it because it's like. Then it labels him about his. His mental illnesses. So I would say, like, I guess one of his. I don't know, Whatever. You could. I don't know how you would label it, to be honest.
- [40:34]
B
Right. Incidents.
- [40:35]
A
Sure. Call it an incident. Great.
- [40:37]
B
Right. That he said he didn't love you.
- [40:40]
A
Yeah.
- [40:40]
B
And so, like, how. I'm just so curious around how you. Have you healed that and how did you heal that?
- [40:50]
A
I think it's ever evolving, you know, I think that there is a level of my. Like, I have a pretty constant anxiety that I have to constantly quell. We talked about a little earlier. I think that does come from a place of, like, never. I think it actually comes from more like, I never know what's gonna happen next. I'm always waiting for the shoe to drop.
- [41:06]
B
Yeah.
- [41:06]
A
So I'm like, I have to prepare myself for what could happen. And so even when I'm in the happiest of moments, there's this lingering feeling of, oh, something bad's going to happen. I think that is something I'm still working on. But I fully love myself. I fully know that I'm enough. I fully love my father. I fully know it's not his fault. I mean, there are certain things he should take accountability for, but, you know, his actual behavior is not his fault. And so I think finding that our relationship is still a little fraught, I think, as to be imagined. But it was definitely challenging. And I think for a long time, the most challenging part was he would tell me that never happened.
- [41:42]
B
Oh, wow.
- [41:43]
A
Yeah. That was probably the hardest part. I would never say that to you. And I'm like, hmm, well, you. Well, you did. And then it's almost like there's a lot of, like. Because we, for a long time, didn't talk about it as a family, like, any of that stuff.
- [41:55]
B
Okay, did you and your. Sorry. Did you and your brother talk about it at the time?
- [41:59]
A
He wasn't. No one was home, but my dad and I. My parents, my mom and my brother were in South Africa visiting family. So I was alone with my dad for two weeks. And so I called my mom and told her in the moment. But it's like, you don't have any. You don't have any, like, witnesses, Right? Proof, no evidence. So it's like if the adult is saying, I would never say that. You know, obviously my mom deep down knows he probably did because she knows him.
- [42:19]
B
Right. But you were gaslit.
- [42:21]
A
I was gaslit at a young age. I got used. I got comfortable with gaslighting at a young age. It's a really interesting way of putting it. So. So it was kind of a constant issue, was like, we would never speak about it because, okay, he's good now, so let's just like, not even rock the boat. And then as an adult, I was like, hey, if you guys want a relationship with me, we're all sitting down and we're talking about it, and I'm looking my father in the eye and saying all the things that really upset me and have traumatized me as an adult. And you need to sit there and say, you did do those things, and you have to take it out of Melody. And now he does. I'm sure he'll listen to this and he'll be like, man, yeah, I did do those things. And I think that that is why we can have a Relationship today.
- [42:54]
B
Where do you think that sense of self that was able to say, if you want a relationship with me, this is how it's gonna go came from?
- [43:03]
A
Honestly, moving out of my parents house at a young age and having my own source of income, paying my own bills.
- [43:08]
B
How old were you when you moved out freshly?
- [43:10]
A
18 the minute I could. Yeah. Yeah. Built a life for myself in a city they'd never been to before. I mean, my dad used to live in California a long time ago, but they were nowhere near here. I built a whole life. I found a support system, new friends. I built a family for myself. And I was like, I no longer have any need for this if it's not going to be how it should be. So I don't need money from you, I don't need time from you, I don't need support from you. But if you want to be in my life, these are the things I need.
- [43:34]
B
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting how I've spent a lot of time the last year, two years, thinking about financial freedom and Jamila Jamil was on she's such a Badass earlier this week.
- [43:50]
A
So cool. Wish I would've ran into her. She's such a badass.
- [43:52]
B
Yeah. And she was talking about financial freedom and I think also going back to that idea of sovereignty and just I think that especially for women, it is the only way that we can have autonomy, full autonomy, I mean, aside from how the government tries to control our bodily autonomy. But. Well, you know, also too, you were talking about the worrying about, you know, waiting for the other shoe to drop and then. And the negative things. And I came up with this recently. I don't know if you didn't ask for help, but I don't know if this will always take help land with you. But that I realized it's my job to just come back to neutral. That rather than trying to say, okay.
- [44:42]
A
I'm like, course, correct.
- [44:43]
B
Yeah, that I just, I thought, okay, because my thoughts keep swinging from, oh, it could be this good. Here's what could happen. Here's the daydream fantasy of this. Oh, or it could be this. And then I would ruminate in the negative. And so would I just. I don't know, somehow it popped in my head of, nope. Every time I catch myself going here, I'm just going back to neutral. And go here, I'm going back to neutral. And also because my. It sort of connected to my therapist. A lot of the work that she has done with me was so small and subtle, but it was around not beating myself up and sort of just trying to accept that this is who I am in this moment. This is what I do in this moment. And I'm. Okay.
- [45:31]
A
You know, I'm trying to future predict. Yeah.
- [45:34]
B
Yeah. So it's just been. It's been my new thing of trying to go back, just like, put it in neutral. Just put it in neutral. Like, neutral is okay. It doesn't.
- [45:44]
A
Yeah, I really love that. I do appreciate that.
- [45:46]
B
Yeah, no, it's a good. I'm so impressed by you. So really.
- [45:51]
A
Well, thank you. That's really kind as you as well. I've done. I mean, who am I to be impressed by you? But I grew up thinking you were just like the icon of all women for standing up for what you did.
- [46:01]
B
No, truly, thank you.
- [46:03]
A
Your story is crazy and crazy and you're on the other side of it and doing this and reclaiming and that's really powerful.
- [46:11]
B
But, you know, it's still. It's very interesting to me of just, you know, we're coming. I think it's like 27, 28 years. I don't know. 20, 28 will be 30 years, right? So it's 28 years. And it's just so interesting to me to see in society, like literally today, this morning, there was an article about. Because Alan Cumming got a star in the walk of fame yesterday. And this publication was like Bill Clinton's ex at Allen Cottage, you know, and.
- [46:47]
A
It'S just like, how does that even getting there?
- [46:49]
B
Right? I just thought, this is so backwards.
- [46:52]
A
But you're also so much bigger than that now. Like, you've done so much more. That's the thing that I think is also so fucked up about publications is it's like they're gonna cling onto the one thing that they think is going to be the most grabby. But we've done so much more since then. Yeah, that would be so much nicer to be recognized for.
- [47:12]
B
I read somewhere that you had done brain scans, and I just wondered if you'd done them with Dr. Amen.
- [47:17]
A
I did. Oh, okay.
- [47:19]
B
I had my brain scanned. Like, I don't. I don't remember within the last six months.
- [47:23]
A
Oh, wow. I did mine in 2020 during COVID Yeah.
- [47:26]
B
So it was. What was the experience like for you?
- [47:30]
A
Well, I went because part of my anxiety for the other shoe dropping is control, which turned into ocd, turned into really bad, like, health ocd. And because of COVID like health paranoia and germ paranoia, and my OCD got really out of control. During 2020, I've actually never spoken about my OCD before, but I felt comfortable. Yes. Yeah. I mean, like, I'm not. It's not something that I've focused on in my life, and I've actually been very lucky to kind of find an avenue through it. But. But I honestly went to Dr. Amen to be like, am I dying? What's wrong with my brain? Why does it hate me so much? Like, why do I feel trapped in my body? What do I do? And it was. I mean, it's a scary process to sit in that room, actually. I have funny photos of me trying to make it, like, funny. I made my mom fly out, and I was like. I was, like, throwing a piece. I was, like, really trying to do anything I can to not feel like I'm going into a crazy machine that clicks for five hours.
- [48:22]
B
I know.
- [48:23]
A
It was really like, oh, my God, they're gonna find something that says you are crazy or something you have. And I think I also was, like, a little scared. It was gonna. It was gonna say, nothing's wrong, and you're like, there's no reason for why you have.
- [48:33]
B
That's interesting.
- [48:35]
A
But I found out that I have high. Certain. Certain metals that were higher in my body. Like, the metal content was higher in my body than it should have been, and that was causing anxiety. And so, of course, I naturally had anxiety from other things as well, but it was amplifying it to, like, a pretty insane degree where, like, my neurons were, like, over firing. And so they gave me, like, a bunch of supplements and I took them all for a. Really did actually, like, I. I still am an anxious person, but not the way I was during 2020. And he was like, you're just. You're just rattling yourself up every day. So once I did that, I did actually notice a pretty, like, big relief in my anxiety, but it also was, like, par for the course for somebody who's got OCD and is always, like, anxious about what's the worst that can happen? And we're in a global health pandemic. It's like, well, health is the first my brain is going to go to.
- [49:23]
B
Yeah.
- [49:23]
A
Yeah.
- [49:24]
B
I. It's interesting. I felt very lucky during COVID that most of my fear was for my parents. Like, my parents getting it. But I. Otherwise, I was super. I felt super calm about the. You know, I was cautious. But I also had a thing where I think because of some of the part of 1998 where I couldn't leave my house, I cannot not leave my house if I'm not sick and I'm not working, like, if I'm home working all day, it's fine. But if you tell me I can't leave my house, I just. It's very deep for me. And so I pretty much went out every day. Even if I just went in the car and drove around, I was.
- [50:14]
A
How long were you isolated for in 98?
- [50:16]
B
Well, it was.
- [50:17]
A
Or like, how long were you told to stay?
- [50:19]
B
Well, it was really, I guess from once it broke until. Would have been before. Was it before I got immunity? So it was.
- [50:33]
A
That's crazy.
- [50:35]
B
Probably five months where I could leave my house. I left my house. Right.
- [50:41]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [50:41]
B
And so it was just.
- [50:42]
A
That's suffocating.
- [50:43]
B
Yeah, it is. And just I think also too, because we lived. When I was in D.C. i was with my mom where we lived at the Watergate and the building complexes, like all these buildings face each other. And so this PI that worked with a lawyer of ours had said, well, you have to be. Oh, no, actually it was Billy Martin. It was a lawyer. It's an amazing person, Billy Martin. And he said, oh, well, you have to be careful because they can use like microwaves to listen from across the way and, you know, take pictures with. With, you know, it was like microwave microphones or something like that and long range lenses and stuff like that. So it was just this. It was just easier to be inside with the drapes closed.
- [51:31]
A
But.
- [51:32]
B
Yeah, so. But I did go outside. It just was. I couldn't many times. And to go outside was very. Was a whole ordeal. So I think in that way that's how the pandemic was for me. I just couldn't.
- [51:50]
A
Yeah, you had to make it work. Yeah, that makes sense. Whereas I was like happy to be at home because I am kind of by nature like a hermit and a homebody. And then alone with my thoughts, not so happy. I was happy to be alone with these little guys in here, but, you know, we got through it. I've done a lot of work on my ocd, a lot of like exposure therapy and whatnot. So I'm. I think I'm like. I wouldn't say I'm healed necessarily, but like, for the most part, germs don't freak me out as much anymore.
- [52:15]
B
Oh, I'm glad.
- [52:16]
A
Yeah.
- [52:16]
B
Yeah. I know people who've sort of had varying degrees of that, and it's a. It's a really hard way to move through the world.
- [52:23]
A
Yeah. Especially when you travel the way that I travel and my job is the way that it is. Like, there was no option but for me to figure it out. Honestly, it was just like, it kind of came during COVID and I was like, what even is that? I didn't even know I had this thing. I didn't even know this was something that I was worried about. And now it was like, it was ever present for, like, six months. And I was like, I gotta figure this out. I can't. Right? Yeah. I can't live like this.
- [52:41]
B
Yeah.
- [52:41]
A
Yeah.
- [52:42]
B
Let's go into your producing a bit more. So talk to me about, like, what the. What kind of projects you are working on. Now. I know you've done horror, which I will say I have not seen, because I hate horror.
- [52:58]
A
It's a divisive genre. Well.
- [52:59]
B
And also, I try to protect my nervous system. So I feel like, why would I do that to myself?
- [53:05]
A
You can go one of two ways with that. Because I love horror. Okay. And I've tried to protect my nervous system, but it's. To me, it's like a controlled way of, like, having it be an adrenaline junkie. It's like, I know I'm safe, but I can, like, have a little fun. You know what I mean? Took a little hit. I was on a show called Riverdale, where we were given kind of the keys to the castle, in a sense. Like, Roberto Aguirre Sacasa, who is our showrunner, really trusted the five of us to bring these characters to life and to, like, champion them till the end of time. And so when you're given autonomy like that, you know, in childhood and then in, like, my first real meaningful job, I was. I was taught at a. At a very early part of my career how to produce and like, that my creativity and my voice was powerful. And so through that, I got, like, a masterclass in producing and how to make a TV show. And, you know, all of those things and felt that bug for the things I was being sent were carbon copies of a character I already played that would never be better than her, you know, And I was like, people don't have. In one of the most creative fields in the world, people aren't creative enough to see outside of what you've seen me do. Like, the whole job is to be somebody else. And yet now I've done somebody else, and you want me to be that person again for your project. It's very interesting. So it kind of came out of a place of necessity for me in my career of, like, I'm not interested by these characters. I'm being Sent. I want to go find the ones that interest me and make them myself. And then as it's evolved, you know, in the last year and a half, I think we're like, I think I said this a little earlier. Like we're so risk averse right now. And I'm like, filmmaking is about taking risk. Entertainment is about taking risks.
- [54:37]
B
And it's, it's a very strange aspect of the industry that, you know, that it is the risk taking that gets rewarded and yet it's a risk averse and that the mandates will come in and say we want the next this. But then. And they won't even, you know, won't entertain. I mean, look, I, you know, just coming off of having had a show made and birthed late last year, so congratulations.
- [55:05]
A
That's a huge accomplishment. Seriously.
- [55:07]
B
Took us four years.
- [55:08]
A
Hell yeah, you did it.
- [55:09]
B
So it was great. But it's so. I don't mean to shit all over the industry in that way.
- [55:15]
A
I don't even think it's shitting all over the industry. I think it's just, it's, it's the nature of where we're at right now. Being risk averse isn't a bad thing. At the end of the day, this is a business. So of course there's gonna be. The people who make the decisions are in charge of money. It's a business. So I think that's part of the producing that I've been like, I have an amazing executive who like really does the business side.
- [55:34]
B
Do you have a deal somewhere? Is this your own production company?
- [55:36]
A
That's the other thing is like, we've been offered deals, but to me it's like, why would I go make a production company and then be told what I can and cannot make? That doesn't make any sense to me. I'd rather be fully in charge of it and pay for it out of pocket and be, be fully autonomous. About the thing I want to be autonomous for.
- [55:51]
B
Well, I have a project to pitch.
- [55:53]
A
It's the easiest one to say no to. No, it's on a ship. So she's really good at keeping the business aspect of stuff clear so that I can really focus on the creative. But it is a part of it. Like it is at the end of the day, a business. You want to be successful, you want to be monetarily successful. So it's about balance, I think is the most important thing. And I'm right now in a place where it's like we're so risk averse. I want to Take risk risks. One of the craziest projects on my slate is really fucked up. It's really an introspective story about a really, truly, like, just up, curious woman. And I'm like, that's. It's all about what I am excited to play, honestly, right. Right now. And then it's like, once I've kind of made a mark with my production company, then it'll be like, what am I excited to see? I don't have to be in everything. But right now, I do have a little bit of an easier avenue, because at least people will sometimes finance things if I'm in them.
- [56:42]
B
Right?
- [56:43]
A
You know what I mean? So I can at least. Yeah, it's fantastic. I'm so thankful. So right now, that's what I'm focusing on is like, what is a story that just excites me? What excites me as an artist? I think, like, it's easy to have a mandate of, like, I want only female empowerment stories. And it's like, I kind of feel like every. Every movie with a woman at the helm is a female empowerment story in some way. If you look at it through the right lens, Right. Even the story I'm talking about, it's. It's dark, but I can twist it into a female empowerment story in my head if I need to. It's just so much more about what excites me as an artist, because I think that's where we're gonna find things that people really resonate with, is that we're making art. There should be passion involved. I'm really into, like, European cinema right now. I'm like. I've got an eye on, like, a lot of young emerging Greek filmmakers, and I think a lot of risk taking is happening overseas. So I'm like, I'm trying to find those. Those people. And I think, what are you seeing.
- [57:31]
B
In Greek cinema or TV that is so compelling to you?
- [57:35]
A
I love absurdist dramas.
- [57:37]
B
Ah.
- [57:38]
A
I really do. Okay. I think that there's something really fascinating about, like, finding a balance in tone that doesn't necessarily make sense to everybody.
- [57:47]
B
Right.
- [57:47]
A
I mean, you look at.
- [57:48]
B
So, like, Edward Albee plays kind of a thing.
- [57:50]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [57:52]
B
Like that.
- [57:53]
A
Or like. I mean, this is, like, the most obvious, but, like, Yorgos Lanthimos, you know what I mean? Like, he takes things like the lobster, right. And makes it this, like, absurdist magical realism story. But at the core of it, there's still a value, there's still a theme, but it's being told through a lens of like, you have to buy into this world immediately.
- [58:07]
B
Right, right.
- [58:07]
A
Poor thing is you have to buy into this world immediately. And I think that's also what I love about horror is like people, audiences are walking into a horror film knowing they have to buy into whatever the rules of the world there are. Right. When they walk into the film. Whereas when you do a drama or a comedy, people are expecting it to be the real world and you have to prove them wrong in the first 20 minutes and buy them onto your side. So it is a little bit tougher when you're making those straight, like those straightforward genre films. Yeah, I think, yeah.
- [58:31]
B
Oh, so interesting. I'm always laughing about because I have a production company, but I'm the only employ.
- [58:38]
A
I love that. I love that.
- [58:40]
B
One of these days.
- [58:42]
A
Yeah, it's definitely way more fun to have somebody to bounce ideas off of, to be honest. Like, shout out to Katherine, like, that woman runs my world. I swear to God.
- [58:50]
B
Yeah, I'm very lucky.
- [58:51]
A
It's good. Yeah, it's really good.
- [58:53]
B
Well, I end every episode asking someone if they are working, currently working on reclaiming anything. It could be a place or, or a memory or anything.
- [59:06]
A
I'm currently working on reclaiming my spirituality.
- [59:09]
B
Ooh. Oh, I'm very spiritual. I'm very woo woo.
- [59:13]
A
I'm very, very woo woo as well.
- [59:14]
B
Okay, so what does that mean then to you, your spirituality?
- [59:19]
A
I think for a long time I started getting into like a routine with my spirituality with. In a way that almost felt mechanical. And so getting more in touch with like nature, Mother Earth, using resources from the planet, like really absorbing negative energy with certain things and removing negative energy. And like, I'm really back into identifying what's good for me and what's not good for me through my spirituality and just like feeling more aligned with my inner self. I think it was really easy to get caught up in this is what it's supposed to be. This is what it's supposed to look like. And so for a while I was doing that and I think now I'm like back to just what feels right to me and spending a lot of time with it. It started feeling like a chore, like something I have to check off my list. And it's like the opposite of what it's supposed to be.
- [60:07]
B
It's part of why I don't meditate. It's just I can't. I don't seem to be able to do it. And then it becomes this thing that I'm like, oh, I didn't do it.
- [60:15]
A
I didn't do it today.
- [60:17]
B
And in some ways, too, I was having this conversation with someone about the. That, like, it's great that this has permeated the culture so much. That's wonderful. It raises consciousness, all those things. And it's starting to feel a little performative in some ways.
- [60:32]
A
Mono and how you took the words out of my mouth. And I think that's why I had this weird, like, feeling about it where it's like. I almost didn't even say that when you said reclaiming. Cause I was like, people are gonna think. I mean, like, I've got crystals. It's like. No, I'm like, I have a lot.
- [60:44]
B
Of crystals and I'm giving you a. Crystals, though. I have no.
- [60:47]
A
No enormous amount of crystals. But there is. But that's like. It's not just that. There's so much more to that. And there is this, like, connotation. Yes. She's an LA girl and she's got. She's got crystals on her bookcase. And it's like, no, it's so much more than that to me. And I think it did become really performative. So, yeah, it's kind of like. And then I got, like, really anti. Like that it was performative. And I was, like, angry, and I was like, this is not what it's about. Jesus Christ. Like, shut up, brain. It's about, like, what makes me feel best in alignment with bigger. Yeah.
- [61:12]
B
I think it's just. I think it's connecting that there's, you know, there is so much more. There's so much more. There's so many languages that we speak as alive beings that we don't know how to decode and we don't have words for, but it's there. It's a language.
- [61:31]
A
And so much of my spirituality is, like, the more in touch with it I am, the more in touch with my inner self I am. The more in touch with my work I am, the more in touch with humans I am. So I can sit across from somebody in a meeting, and they can be distant from me or whatever, and I can be like, oh, they're feeling weird because of this, this, or this. And I can just feel energy so much differently when I actually am doing that work. I think work is actually the wrong word for it because it isn't work. It genuinely feels joyful again. And that's kind of what I think I was looking for, is a lack of chore and more of the joy and this connectivity that I feel with myself and the world.
- [62:01]
B
Yeah. This has been so lovely. I'm so excited to continue watching your journey, Madeline.
- [62:08]
A
Thank you.
- [62:09]
B
So, you know, it's wonderful. Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF Media studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producer is are Candace Manriquez, Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.