Marilyn Minter

Summary

Podcast Summary: Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky — Episode: Marilyn Minter

Date: April 7, 2026
Host: Monica Lewinsky
Guest: Marilyn Minter, Artist

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Episode Overview

This candid conversation between Monica Lewinsky and celebrated visual artist Marilyn Minter explores themes of power, shame, sexuality, art activism, and personal reclamation. Through stories from both women's lives and Minter's provocative artistic career, the episode examines what it means to reclaim agency and challenge cultural taboos—particularly around sexuality, femininity, and public shame.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Women, Sexuality, and the Art World

• Challenging Patriarchal Boundaries:

  • Minter recalls deciding to tackle sexual imagery as her subject—an area rarely approached by women artists, especially in a non-“softcore” context (00:00).
  • She asks, “Does it change the meaning if women make images for their own pleasure and their own amusement?” (00:22, Marilyn Minter).

• The "Porn Grid" and Feminist Backlash:

  • In the late 1980s, Marilyn created the "Porn Grid"—a series meant to interrogate the politics and power dynamics of erotic imagery.
  • The project, which used humor and provocation (such as depicting a microphone as a penis in “The Supremes”), resulted in her being ostracized in the art world and considered a “traitor to feminism” (29:46, Minter; 34:03–34:21).

• Why Is Female Sexual Agency Threatening?:

  • “Why is it now, see, I'm an old lady now...if you're young, youngish, ...it was like, you're a traitor to feminism. Why is that? Women owning the power of sexual imagery? Why is it so scary to both men and women?” (30:26, Minter).

2. Reclaiming Visibility and Power

• Portrait Process: Glass, Steam, and Agency:

  • Minter describes photographing and painting her subjects—often strong women, including Lewinsky herself—behind glass, playing with steam/frosted surfaces for metaphoric as well as aesthetic reasons (06:22–09:31).
  • She aims to capture her subject’s character in spontaneous, unguarded moments—“I can get you when you don't know I'm looking” (06:32, Minter).

• Meta Portraits and Icon Series:

  • Lewinsky discusses being painted by Minter and the vulnerability that comes with seeing oneself through another person's gaze (03:23).
  • Minter's “Icon Series” features figures she admires: Glenn Ligon, Roxane Gay, Lady Gaga, Mickalene Thomas, and more, chosen for “moving the needle” (07:10–07:32).

3. Shame, Glamour, and Visibility

• Shame as Cultural Engine:

  • Both Lewinsky and Minter emphasize the destructive power of shame, arguing it thrives in secrecy and dies in visibility.
  • “It's my job to shine a light on things we feel shame about. It's my job to drag it into the light because shame cannot exist in visibility” (25:54, Minter).

• Glamour, Desire, and Contradictions:

  • Minter examines glamour and fashion as both sources of pleasure and mechanisms for body dysmorphia, particularly for women (11:57).
  • “I thought I would just intensify glamour until it destabilizes. So I thought, what does it look like to paint with your tongue?” (11:57, Minter)—referencing her works where models lick glass or candy, subverting traditional imagery of desire.

• Elder Sex Series, Destabilizing Taboo:

  • Minter’s series, featuring loving, sexual images of couples over 70, challenged cultural invisibility and shame around elder sexuality (23:02–24:49).
  • “...people have never been this healthy old...and...there's never been Viagra or Cialis. So between those two things, couples have managed to have some of the best sex of their lives” (23:08, Minter).

4. Cancel Culture, Public Shaming, and Resilience

• Personal Stories of Shame and Cancellation:

  • Both Lewinsky and Minter discuss weathering intense public scrutiny and shaming; Lewinsky through her well-known scandal, Minter through professional exile following "Porn Grid" (26:25, 34:03–34:43).
  • “I got dropped from my galleries. I was making a real living...and then all of a sudden, everything stopped...” (34:21, Minter).

• Recovery, Family, and Building Belonging:

  • Minter reflects openly on childhood neglect, parental addiction, and finding healing and self-worth through therapy, chosen family, and sobriety (48:34–50:50).
  • “I had to see this as...not...my life sentence. I had to see it as...a life lesson...” (49:40, Minter).

• Forgiveness and Reconciliation:

  • She discusses forgiving her mother posthumously and finding gratitude through art—even “thanking” her mother once those early photographs helped revive her career (55:18–55:36).

5. Artistic Practice and Process

• Medium and Methods:

  • Minter explains her use of enamel on metal for its translucency, which allows for depth and layered meaning (19:56–20:50).
  • Her paintings always aim for emotional gut response and multiple readings, resisting oversimplification:
  • “I want people to be able to tolerate complexity because nothing is black and white. Nothing. Well, maybe death, right?” (16:55, Minter).

• Sobriety and Creativity:

  • Minter debunks the myth that artists need substances for creativity, explaining that sobriety increased her sensitivity, intuition, and inspiration (51:42–54:19).
  • “What I saw was once I took away substances that I could get in touch with and I could listen to that inner voice...” (53:20, Minter).

6. Reclaiming Shame, Agency, and Complex Narratives

• The Power of Naming and Representation:
  • The episode repeatedly returns to the idea that naming taboos, interrogating shame, and representing marginalized experiences diminishes their power and creates space for new narratives (37:44, 59:06).
  • “If we examine them, we can see what's going on. You name things that changes the meaning. Awareness is everything.” (59:06, Minter).

7. Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “Nobody has politically correct fantasies...Does it change the meaning if women make images for their own pleasure?”
  — Marilyn Minter (00:15–00:22)
• “It's my job to shine a light on things we feel shame about. Shame cannot exist in visibility.”
  — Marilyn Minter (25:54)
• “Anyone who can take their pain and turn it into something positive, that's the best thing there is.”
  — Marilyn Minter [re: Lewinsky] (04:47)
• “I want to paint pubic hair so beautifully that someone hangs it over their couch.”
  — Marilyn Minter (22:29)
• “We have so much power, but we have to act like we don’t know we have it.”
  — Marilyn Minter (32:20)
• “Let [public shaming] die. When you see somebody publicly shamed, talk about them being shamed, but don’t ridicule them.”
  — Marilyn Minter (39:56)
• “Shame is an engine of the culture.”
  — Monica Lewinsky (42:29 dialogue, echoed by Minter)
• “I think you reclaim toxic shame. You reclaim it and you destabilize it by making it visual.”
  — Marilyn Minter (58:00)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Topic / Segment | |:-------------:|:---------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00 - 00:35 | Marilyn on sexual imagery and women’s representation | | 03:04 | Minter’s desire to paint Lewinsky after Impeachment | | 06:22 - 09:31 | The process of glass/steam portraits | | 11:56 | Art, glamour, body dysmorphia, and social contradictions | | 23:02 | Elder sex series — representing healthy, aging sexuality | | 26:25 | Shame, glamour, and dragging secrets into the light | | 29:46 | The "Porn Grid" and being canceled in the art world | | 48:34 | Childhood neglect and finding family of choice | | 51:42 | Fear (and reality) of losing creativity in sobriety | | 55:18 | Forgiving her mother after years | | 58:00 | Reclaiming toxic shame by making it visible |

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Tone and Style

The conversation is raw, self-aware, humorous, and courageous—marked by both women’s willingness to laugh at pain and propel discourse forward. Minter’s language is unfiltered and vivid; Lewinsky is earnest, empathetic, and deeply curious.

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Takeaways

• Visibility disrupts shame: Creating, representing, or vocalizing taboo or painful experiences can “drag them into the light,” robbing shame of its power.
• Complexity > Simplicity: Minter urges artists and viewers to embrace complexity, uncertainty, and multiple meanings in both art and life.
• Reclaiming Power: Both Lewinsky and Minter demonstrate how it’s possible to transform wounds and social stigma into art, activism, and agency.

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Final Quote:

“If we examine [the engines of culture], we can see what's going on. You name things, that changes the meaning. Awareness is everything.”
— Marilyn Minter (59:06)

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Marilyn Minter]

So I thought, what subject matter have women never tackled in the art world? And I thought, well, how about sexual imagery? And I thought, well, nobody has politically correct fantasies. That's the first thing I thought. Second thing was, I've seen softcore from women, but never hardcore. Does it change the meaning if women make images for their own pleasure and their own amusement?

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[Podcast Host]

Marilyn Minter, welcome to Reclaiming.

[Marilyn Minter]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

I'm so excited to be having this conversation with you. Just really, really special. Really special.

[Marilyn Minter]

Well, I think it's the first time I've ever been on tv.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, well, you know, it is the first time losing your virginity to something with me, girl. Correct me if I'm wrong, I think we first met. It was pre pandemic at a Cindy Sherman show. Is that correct?

[Marilyn Minter]

No, it wasn't in the show. It was her New Year's Eve party. Oh, it was or it wasn't New Year's Eve. It was Christmas.

[Podcast Host]

Christmas, Christmas party.

[Marilyn Minter]

Okay. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

All right, then maybe our first.

[Marilyn Minter]

And I came over and introduced myself.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

Cause I've always loved you.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, thank you. And what I was remembering was, I think it was at a show of hers. There was an after party and you had on that great pin and I.

[Marilyn Minter]

The don't fuck with us. Don't fuck without us.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

I make those pins for Planned Parenthood

[Podcast Host]

and I couldn't remember. I know I have one. I wish I had it with you.

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, I could have brought you one.

[Podcast Host]

I know I give them away. I know I have one in la and I couldn't remember if you gave me yours from that night or you sent me one.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah, I might have sent them to you. Because whenever anyone admires it, I say, oh, we give them away. We tried to a few years ago before the Supreme Court overturned Roe, which we never thought was gonna happen. I would sell them Cause I could make money for Planned Parenthood like a dollar a pin at museums. So the whole idea was to raise money for Planned Parenthood. I didn't think of don't fuck with us, don't fuck without us. But I did make pins with a Planned Parenthood logo at the bottom.

[Podcast Host]

Uh huh. Yeah. No, they were great. And then we reconnected. We followed each other on Twitter. And then I got this amazing DM

[Marilyn Minter]

from you after I saw Impeachment.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

I thought, whoa, I gotta paint her. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And I was so flattered. I mean, terrified, because I'd never had my portrait done.

[Marilyn Minter]

I know. That was so flattering too. I didn't know that.

[Podcast Host]

I mean, I'd been photographed, but there, I think I was so terrified because there's a level of seeing that happens with a painting portrait.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. It lasts a lot longer than a photo.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. And just there's. I think they're more. Especially the way you work, there are more layers to it and there's just more seeing and it's longer. And where a photo. There's, you know, it's snip, snip.

[Marilyn Minter]

It's this Frankenstein picture of all the shots I took of you. I was trying to give you character and I wanted you to be strong.

[Podcast Host]

Well, it's interesting because. So in the documentary about you, pretty dirty. You're talking about. This is so meta. We're talking about the documentary of you talking about painting me. Yes, on my podcast. That's right. That's right. Wait, so you were saying about wanting me to look strong and it's interesting because when I look at the painting of me, I see a version of myself that is not yet fully blossomed.

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, I love that. So you think the painting got. Well, I don't know if it's true, though. That's what I saw.

[Podcast Host]

Do you see strong?

[Marilyn Minter]

That's what I saw.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, you kidding? Are you kidding? You're the strongest person I've ever met. By far.

[Podcast Host]

No.

[Marilyn Minter]

Well, I've ever met.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah, I've ever met. I mean, what you went through and survived and now you're giving back, that's like somebody I admire. I mean, anyone who can take their pain and turn it into something positive, that's the best thing there is.

[Podcast Host]

Thanks, Marilyn.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. The bullying was the beginning. Yeah. Thank you so much for starting that.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, my gosh.

[Marilyn Minter]

And now you're doing reclaiming. I told Jane Fonda she's got to. Come on.

[Podcast Host]

You know what? We've been trying to get her.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So maybe. Maybe now that you've done it, she'll reconsider. So.

[Marilyn Minter]

Because she's.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, she's such a great.

[Marilyn Minter]

Because I remember when she was head on Jane. I know she got the same kind of shame.

[Podcast Host]

Yep, exactly.

[Marilyn Minter]

You know, just tormented. And I was, of course, an anti Vietnam protestor.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Marilyn Minter]

So that was how I connected with her.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

I had a boyfriend that was.

[Podcast Host]

You guys known each other a long time?

[Marilyn Minter]

No, not at all. She called me to. So I give a piece. Kathy. Oprah told her to call me. I'm an artist that does activism. And she said, would you give me a piece for climate change raising money in California?

[Podcast Host]

Oh, how great.

[Marilyn Minter]

And I said, well, of course. You know, I modeled my life. Life after you. She was amazing. And in the documentary. She was amazing.

[Podcast Host]

Yes. Well, it's interesting because I want to sort of, you know, I can talk about my own experiences, but I want to dive in and have you, no pun intended, paint us a picture of what a sitting session with you is like, because it's very unique with the glass.

[Marilyn Minter]

And so I don't warn anybody, but you can see me.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

And that's what nobody knows until they get behind the camera, you know, behind the glass.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that's right.

[Marilyn Minter]

And so I can get you when you don't know I'm looking. Yeah. And I did it all the time. I do it all the time. I put Gaga. They put her on the COVID of the New York Times Magazine. She totally had no clue I was shooting her at that moment.

[Podcast Host]

Well, the series. So you've done these incredible different series. And so I know I was in

[Marilyn Minter]

all People I admire.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Is it an. Did you call it an icon series?

[Marilyn Minter]

I didn't call it that, but other people have. Yeah, I call it people.

[Podcast Host]

Let me call myself an icon.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah, you are. You totally are. No, people that move the needle, you know, do something positive.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

People I really admire.

[Podcast Host]

It's. But it's.

[Marilyn Minter]

And you were in the first. You were one of the first people. The first group, I think was Glenn Ligon, the artist.

[Podcast Host]

You.

[Marilyn Minter]

Roxane Gay.

[Podcast Host]

Yep.

[Marilyn Minter]

Gaga.

[Podcast Host]

Yep.

[Marilyn Minter]

And wasn't there one? Oh, and Mickalene Thomas.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, right. Mickalene Thomas.

[Marilyn Minter]

That was my first. Yeah. These are all people I really admire.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I know now you did Lizzo also, whom I just interviewed last week.

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, did you really?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, she was great. She sang a song acapella for me of one of her new songs coming out. I was like, okay, this is pretty bonkers.

[Marilyn Minter]

She's so funny. And charming.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, she is. And really smart.

[Marilyn Minter]

Really smart.

[Podcast Host]

But so. Okay, so you. So you've got these series. So, I mean, I know I came in and you had me sitting behind glass that you then chilled, Right.

[Marilyn Minter]

Well, sometimes it's frozen.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

Only because it looks like steam. And so steam lasts about 3 seconds or 10 seconds max. And where it's frozen, it looks like steam for a lot longer. I can do. I have about 10 minutes to play around.

[Podcast Host]

How did you discover that?

[Marilyn Minter]

I was just playing. Wow. I wanted to. Basically, you know, there was a whole history of portraits, you know, and at this point, like, years ago, there weren't that many women making portraits. And that's not true anymore, but. And I wanted to make a style that I could own. And so I thought if I did it behind glass and steam, and if I wiped the glass, I got streaks, I could decontextualize a portrait. I was trying to not make a Sargent. I was trying to make Hals so I could actually get character instead of just trying to get something realistic that looks like the person. I wanted action. Some kind of action. So there was personality.

[Podcast Host]

Right. There's so many metaphors of a window. Right. Was there.

[Marilyn Minter]

I was thinking glass. You were in a train or you were in a restaurant. Yeah. And you're looking out, you know, rainy day or something.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Marilyn Minter]

I was thinking of being in a spa. I put Lizzo in a spa when I shot her, and I did an odalesque of her because I wanted to see what a 21st century Odalesque looked like.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

Odalesques. In all of our history, are these just naked women played out for your amusement? And I thought, well, I wanted my odalisque to have agency. So she's actually shooting me on her phone, right?

[Podcast Host]

That's right. It's great. It's very meta. But I think the process is so. It's so interesting. And then what I loved in the documentary was seeing Miley's portrait, who's also been on the show.

[Marilyn Minter]

I loved her on the show.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. She was amazing. So that was somebody I. So funny.

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, yeah. Because I always thought the way she was treated after that vmi, I had to do something, you know, I had to. This is just so unfair.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

And so I had to explain to a New York Times editor what slut shaming was. They didn't even have the word. And New York Times, they wanted to know my opinion of her being slut shamed all over the country like that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

And I thought she had beautiful answers. For you.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. She was so thoughtful. She was really thoughtful. And I loved how she was so cute. She came. She's like, why I have to keep my phone? Because I took notes on your episode that I listened to of the overlap. And I just loved how thoughtful she was.

[Marilyn Minter]

She's very smart, too.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah. And funny. Really fucking funny.

[Marilyn Minter]

You know, it was so easy to get her to do a Planned Parenthood project with me. And she was just charming. And I never saw anybody. You know how I knew she was so smart is very few people can write on the glass. And she could write backwards on the glass.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, my gosh. But she also did. Okay. Was it Miley, or am I thinking of someone else who licked the candy of the glass?

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, oh, those are different people.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. Those are different people. Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

Miley wrote pro choice.

[Podcast Host]

Right, right, right. Okay, right. And then somebody licked candy.

[Marilyn Minter]

Lots of people.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

That was me shooting underneath.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. You would not have gotten me to

[Marilyn Minter]

do that

[Podcast Host]

next time.

[Marilyn Minter]

But these weren't portraits. These were paintings. You know, just talking about, you know, how there's so much contempt for. In the art world. There's so much contempt for fashion and glamour.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

And I thought, well, that's a real contradiction because it gives so many women pleasure, and yet at the same time, it creates body dysmorphia at the same time. It's the one place women have a lot of power. And I thought I would just intensify glamour until it destabilizes. So I thought, what does it look like to paint with your tongue? So I shot all of these women. Actually, it was on a. I piggybacked this on a Mac ad I was shooting for Mac, their eye makeup.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

And whenever the model changed the makeup, I would say, could you come over here and lick up on this candy? And they all did it. And I chose the models for the length of their tongues. Matt was furious when they heard about it. But then MoMA bought it and put it in the lobby. It was lobby.

[Podcast Host]

And they were so mad.

[Marilyn Minter]

Then they were. They said, you want free makeup from now on?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Has there. Is there a story of a really revealing moment that surprised you in some of these. In the portrait shots that Gaga. Uh huh.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. Because she was very guarded.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

And I couldn't. I could not. I waited and waited. I was shooting over and over, and she was just always new to bake a post and strike a pose. And I finally got her for a moment where she was just relaxing. And that's the one I used for the painting wow.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. Because most people are so guarded. Artists are not in the public eye that much. And I shoot so many artists because these are people I really admire. They change art history on some level. Cindy was easy.

[Podcast Host]

That's interesting, because I would think, you know, I mean, if you think about Cindy Sherman's body of work, that it's

[Marilyn Minter]

all her posing at her shooting, her

[Podcast Host]

shooting, her, shooting herself. Right. And that there's so much agency in that. I would have actually imagined that it would have been hard for her.

[Marilyn Minter]

Like, look at the pattern you have on your. Okay. She brought in a pair of gloves with that pattern, leopard pattern. And I thought, who wears these short gloves? It was like, oh, people that are posing. You know, I thought, so this is how I could make it, Cindy. And I thought, well, if you. You know, these are like, they're like, from another era, these short gloves. You don't see women wearing gloves anymore. Like, fashion gloves.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Marilyn Minter]

They wear gloves for warmth. And it's a style. And it was a style thing for somebody who poses. So that's why I used her glove only I changed the color from leopard to blue.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. But that's interesting about Gaga. I think I wouldn't have expected that.

[Marilyn Minter]

It was a big surprise.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

I thought, oh, she did it. She relaxed.

[Podcast Host]

Click, click, click. Funny, it reminds me of almost the opposite. I did this. I did a fashion campaign for Reformation, the brand reformation, a couple years ago, and I'd not done anything like that. And I feel very awkward in front of a camera. And so they ended up getting me a movement coach. Wow. Hannah Collins.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

She was amazing. And it was a game changer for me.

[Marilyn Minter]

I need one. This is my first time.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. No, but it was. It's like. It is. It was a game changer because I felt held in a way of just

[Marilyn Minter]

somebody showing me that you're safe.

[Podcast Host]

Move your hand like this, Move your finger like this. Do this. Think about this. And it gave me a sense of confidence that I think came out in the photos.

[Marilyn Minter]

I think you have to do anything you can to feel confident if you're going to be in front of the camera or a microphone. Yeah. So whatever you need to do. Like, I. I got my hair blown out. I thought, okay, I'll be all right if I have a hair blown out.

[Podcast Host]

Exactly. Well, you look gorgeous.

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, well, thank you.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Before I do, like, a interview for a project, a big, like, a round of interviews for different projects and things, I will work with a media coach because I have to feel you're on camera. All the time, I have to feel like someone has asked every possible question we could think of. I have to have heard myself say it out loud, tape record it, read back so that it's like, okay, does that feel like it's coming from the right place? Is that saying what I want it to say? Do I? Because so many times I think there's that chasm between how we wanna appear and how we actually appear, how we wanna sound and how we actually sound.

[Marilyn Minter]

And as an artist, I feel like my job is to make a picture of the times we live in. What it looks like, even if you've never seen it before, but you know it exists. So I'm always looking for that moment where if I feel it in my gut, then I just blurt it out. But in my case, I take a picture or I paint it. If I feel it in my gut, you know, my inner voice tells me, oh, this is what that looks like. So I. It's not words that take that tell you about the image, but it's really this complex. I want you to have different reads. I don't want it to be an illustration. Whenever I make a picture of anything, I want it to be read from multiple takes. And so I want people to be able to tolerate complexity because nothing is black and white. Nothing. Well, maybe death, right?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

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[Podcast Host]

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[Marilyn Minter]

What is this, your first date? Oh, no.

[Podcast Host]

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[Marilyn Minter]

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[Podcast Host]

My brain is going to two different questions I want to ask you. One is, have you ever been in a. Or had a subject and not gotten the gut moment?

[Marilyn Minter]

Not yet.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, touchword.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah, but I don't shoot. I don't. I shoot whoever I want.

[Podcast Host]

Right?

[Marilyn Minter]

That's the difference. I'm not doing it commercially to make a living, right? So I'm really not a photographer. Even though I shoot photography all the time, I'm a painter, so I have choices. I don't make my living off photographs.

[Podcast Host]

Right. But it's just everything I make is

[Marilyn Minter]

about making a painting. Everything.

[Podcast Host]

And I love that in the documentary, you get to see this technique you have with your finger where you're only the edges.

[Marilyn Minter]

I use brushes.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. But you see.

[Marilyn Minter]

But I did soften enameled paint, right? Yeah. I started with my finger and I just wait.

[Podcast Host]

And also, your medium is very interesting because you paint on metal, right?

[Marilyn Minter]

I have to, because canvas would crack because it's enamel paint. And I use enamel because it's translucent so you can see the color underneath. So I can make depth, and I can't get it with oil or acrylic. I get a depth that I can't get with those, too. I worked with oil for 25 years or so, and then when I picked up enamel, I thought, oh, this is interesting. And mostly, when you work, artists work with enamel. It's one hard color next to another because it dries within five minutes.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

So it's.

[Podcast Host]

I didn't know that.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah, enamel dries really fast. It's oil based. And so I had to work really fast to bottle it. And I thought I could do it with brushes. I was trying it with brushes, and I thought, I'll just use my fingers at the edges so that I could create the illusion of three dimensions.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Well, your work is so amazing too, because you sort of hold these. The tension of desire and shame. And do you feel like that's always been in everything you've done? Is that.

[Marilyn Minter]

Well, I work with art history.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

And I think if you look at all of art history, you'll notice that there's no pubic hair. What's wrong with pubic hair? Why did the Renaissance just make it disappear?

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Marilyn Minter]

I mean, there are like four or five paintings I could think of off the top of my head that is picture of pubic hair. But basically it's. Why do people find pubic hair vulgar? You know, all throughout history?

[Podcast Host]

Do you think it's because it is connected to a sense of aging for women? Like prepubescent?

[Marilyn Minter]

I don't know. I don't know. I've been asking this question for a long time, and there's lots of different. You know, I think it was considered vulgar. You know, I mean.

[Podcast Host]

But why? Right? Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

Why?

[Podcast Host]

Why? I love. I have it in here. You've got this great quote where you said, because you've painted pubic hair Well,

[Marilyn Minter]

I do it a lot.

[Podcast Host]

Right. This is a topic we've not had on the show yet.

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, yeah, I bet you haven't. Yeah. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And I think you're our first visual artist on the show too.

[Marilyn Minter]

I'm very proud.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. So. But there's this great line where in the documentary where you say, I want to paint pubic hair so beautifully that someone hangs it over their couch.

[Marilyn Minter]

Well, that's what I do. Yeah. I make it so absolutely gorgeous. You know, it's like a Trojan horse. If you make it so good looking, then you can. Oh, people all the time go, oh, that is really beautiful. What is that? And then I say, well, it's pubic hair. Then they go, oh, but recently people are buying it.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. The last few years.

[Podcast Host]

Do you think that's because one of your. And we'll rewind in a minute to like get to your own history. But you, in the last several years, you had done this elder sex series.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yes, yes.

[Podcast Host]

So do you think that that sort of punctured the culture or the taboo? Maybe.

[Marilyn Minter]

I hope so because it's everybody's future. And this is what I was shooting for the New York Times Magazine. And this is an article by Maggie Jones. And she documented couples having sex up until 100 years old. And so all my models were over 70. And in her article it was about, well, first of all, people have never been this healthy. Old. Okay, yeah, they've never been this healthy. And second of all, there's never been Viagra or Cialis. Okay. So between those two things, couples have managed to have some of the best sex of their lives. And this is in the article because it's not performative anymore. So my job was to take pictures that were loving, of all different races and colors being loving. And I mean, the people in my pictures were 89 and 76 kissing, you know, and there were only two couples because all my friends would refuse people that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Oh, so you asked your friends?

[Marilyn Minter]

I asked my friends first.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

Because I knew they were having sex.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

And they all said no. And the models were all too real. Models were two perfect. So I wanted human bodies. And so we asked actors.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. So most of those people are actors.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, interesting. Yeah, interesting.

[Marilyn Minter]

Do you ever watch the Pit?

[Podcast Host]

I have not watched it yet because, like several people in my life told me it's too gory for me. They all think it's too gory. I like very much.

[Marilyn Minter]

Well, you know what they do that I've never seen on tv, except maybe in Europe. European tv. Real bodies. Oh, real humans.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

What people actually look like in an emergency room, in a hospital or really anywhere.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

It's not, you know, beautiful girls with, you know, or handsome men, you know, with appendicitis or something. It's real people. And it was like so refreshing.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

You don't even know why this looks so refreshing.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

You know, you've seen European television or European movies. They don't have perfect makeup, you know, and every eyelash, you know, and I think that, that, that constant need for perfection is so shaming because it's impossible.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

You know, and that's why I work with glamour a lot. Because I, I mean, it's a giant industry of the culture and how can I not make a picture of it? So we see constantly. And it's my job to shine a light on things we feel shame about. It's my job to drag it into the light because shame cannot exist in visibility.

[Podcast Host]

Well, you had, I mean, you were mentioning my experiences before, but you also had your own experience with canceling, being canceled.

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, yes, that's true.

[Podcast Host]

Before we called it being canceled.

[Marilyn Minter]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

I mean, talk to me.

[Marilyn Minter]

That's probably why it's so important to me. I moved to New York City, you know, and I saw a show, I saw this show of Mike Kelly and you know, his work, and the work was really like mining a 13 year old girl's brain. It was like stuffed animal sculptures, stuffed animal paintings, you know, melted candles, tables of melted candles. He made a decoupage chest of drawers and then there was a picture of Mike underneath the glass. You know, things like that. And I thought, this is this intellectual from California mining a teenage. Oh, and felt banners too, from the high school or something. So I thought, what subject matter have women never tackled in the art world? And I thought, well, how about sexual imagery? And I thought, well, nobody has politically correct fantasies. That's the first thing I thought. Second thing was, I've seen soft core from women, but never hardcore. Does it change the meaning if women make images for their own pleasure and their own amusement? And I thought, well, I'll find out. And I was in a pre. I was in a pro sex feminist group. We were the anti. We were the anti. Oh, there was a whole group of Catherine McKinnon and Andrea Dworkin who were trying to get rid of any porn. Anti porn. Women for. And women that were against pornography.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Marilyn Minter]

And I would, you know, and I was, when I was on this mission, I thought, well, does it change the meaning if women make images of sex elementary. And. And I would go into 42nd street that your. Your viewers won't know what I'm talking about. But there were all these lined up for. You know, you get magazines and videos and. And I. They were filled with guys. And I would go in to an aisle and it was just clear. Like, I would walk down the aisle looking for magazines. Yeah, just like mice scrambling or roaches scrambling. And I thought I should tell these anti porn people, all you gotta do is walk in this. In these stores. So anyway, I thought. Everyone thought, like I did pro sex feminism. We should have images for our. And people were starting to. Candida Royale was making movies for couples, and Susie Bright had on our backs these magazines. And there was women from Columbia or Barnard made their first porn magazine, which I have a copy of. And I was way ahead of the culture. There was no Internet. And so I basically was canceled.

[Podcast Host]

Well, for the project was Porn Grid. Right. But the porn grid, tell us about what the images were.

[Marilyn Minter]

I thought they were funny. You know, I would have, like, a microphone. It would look like a microphone, but it was a dick. And it was three faces around it. You know, things like that. I called that the Supremes. And I was trying to be funny or provocative. I thought it was compelling, that these images are compelling. And I wasn't making them to turn you on, but I was like, I wanted to ask that question. And I still see there's just. And I really wish scholars would look into this. Why is it now, see, I'm an old lady now, and there is a very famous picture of Louise Bourgeois holding this giant dildo. And everyone thinks she's adorable, she's post menopausal, and she could do anything she wants, you know, with sexuality. But if you're young, youngish, when I was, it was like, you're a traitor to feminism. Why is that? Women owning the power of sexual imagery? Why is it so scary to both men and women? And I still don't know the answer. Why are we taking power away from something? What difference does it make?

[Podcast Host]

I mean, do you think it's because with that power in our hands, we can shame a man?

[Marilyn Minter]

No. Why would we do that?

[Podcast Host]

Right. But I mean, I think.

[Marilyn Minter]

I mean, I know there's a lot of abuse in the porn industry, but I was thinking of it in terms of why can't women make images for themselves and for their own amusement and their own pleasure, you know, and where does that threaten? Who does that threaten? Why? You know, But I could do it. If an old lady I could do anything.

[Podcast Host]

How old are you, Marilyn?

[Marilyn Minter]

77.

[Podcast Host]

Amazing.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah, well, awesome. And I have another friend who's been doing this for a long time, Betty Tompkins. She had no career until recently because she was doing this in the 60s, but now she's an old lady. Everyone loves this work.

[Podcast Host]

That's so interesting, isn't it? Yeah. I think there must be something threatening to the patriarchy of.

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, well, there clearly is for women

[Podcast Host]

to be owning that because I think if they own it, but when I did it, they can't be controlled because then they're giving it. They're saying yes, because we have so

[Marilyn Minter]

much power, but we're not allowed to make a picture of it.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Marilyn Minter]

We have so much power, but we have to act like we don't know we have it. I really don't know. And I think. But until this point, this generation, your generation and younger people, women were. If you even knew about porn, there was something wrong with you. We were so shamed into not paying any attention and being innocent somehow and not even knowing, you know, this was like you had to be a virgin to get married. Could you imagine? My generation got married right out of high school.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

Could you imagine? Yeah, yeah. 18 year olds getting married.

[Podcast Host]

My mom was 19 when she got married.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah, that's.

[Podcast Host]

Well, yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. Well, how old's your mom?

[Podcast Host]

She's turning 78.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah, there we go. You know, my generation.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Well, what was your relationship like to your own sexuality? Because this is all in the 70s, right? Well, when. Sorry, I think I'm jumping backwards. There's. When did. When did you do porn?

[Marilyn Minter]

Grid 1989.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, so. So you're kind of in the 70s. You are doing your work. There's like the.

[Marilyn Minter]

I thought, I believed I was, you know, I believe Ms. Magazine. I was like, oh, yeah, the guys that say they read Playboy for the articles. Ha ha, ha ha. Yeah. But I read Playboy every month. It was like the only liberal magazine in Florida that you could buy. Yeah. I mean, there wasn't like, you know, I mean, I didn't. I was in a very conservative state.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. I mean, all I wanted to do was get out of there when I was a kid.

[Podcast Host]

So when porn grade came out or was shown.

[Marilyn Minter]

Shown for the first time.

[Podcast Host]

Shown for the first time.

[Marilyn Minter]

It horrified people of. Traitor to feminism. But that was from other women artists.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Marilyn Minter]

I'm thinking, wow, aren't you a pro sex feminist? I thought we all were. So it was a big surprise to me because I thought, everyone thought, like, I did Right.

[Podcast Host]

Did it hurt you?

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, it killed me. You know, I got dropped from my galleries. I was making a real living. Right. I was like, somebody to be watched. That artist, you know, she's gonna do well. And then all of a sudden, everything stopped, and my dealers dropped me, and I didn't sell anything for years.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

And I didn't make a living, so I started shooting commercially. And then. And I was teaching, always teaching. Oh, okay. That's how I survived.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. How did you hold onto yourself?

[Marilyn Minter]

When I had a nascent group of artists who were real smart and they were on my side, they said, no, you were right. The rest of them were wrong. And there are people that have come up to me in the interim who apologized.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. And you'll have that, too.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. I've had it a little.

[Marilyn Minter]

You've had it, too, a little. You'll get more warmth, which.

[Podcast Host]

You know what, I take it.

[Marilyn Minter]

Well, we got street cred now.

[Podcast Host]

You are definitely cooler than I am, though.

[Marilyn Minter]

No, no, no, don't be.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, no, I can't touch the hem of your garment.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, please.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, please. But it's. Yeah. Because I was really surprised to learn that it was. I think it was like. Was it 30 years until you then had your solo show at SFMOMA?

[Marilyn Minter]

It was pretty much, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

It was like, well, who was the curator there? Because let's give him a shout out. Or whoever was.

[Marilyn Minter]

Joss. Josh Shirky.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

And I really wish I knew what happened to him because I've lost him in my Rolodex.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, well, if anybody's listening knows Josh Shirky, we're looking for him.

[Marilyn Minter]

The director was Madeline Gerstein, who's still very much in the art world.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

And now she's a director at the MCA in Chicago.

[Podcast Host]

I just. There's. I have such a reverence for people like that. It's weirdly making me a tiny bit emotional because it's making me think of Graydon Carter, who sort of let me write my first person essay.

[Marilyn Minter]

That was beautiful.

[Podcast Host]

Those people who sort of.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And they.

[Marilyn Minter]

There were artists that did this for me. Jack Pearson was one. Larry Clark was one. Christopher Woll. Gary Howell. They said, you really getting fucked? You know, this isn't right. Yeah. And so a couple of dealers, and then Katie Nolan thought I was on the right track. She's disappeared. But she's a huge name now. I mean, she's always been a huge name, but she disappeared. In the vernacular, you don't see her anywhere. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

No, it's really interesting. I mean, just the sort of. I just keep thinking about the women's gaze that you're talking about around sexuality. And do you know Karen Lyons at all her work? Oh, I'm gonna introduce you to her work because what I find interesting is she paints young women like Balthus, but it's a woman's gaze.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So it feels so empowering rather than, you know, what we now see today of like, okay, a man painting a young girl with her panties show. And this hangs in a museum and is revered and you know, so. But her work is. Yeah, her work is just. Is delicious.

[Marilyn Minter]

It's so shocking how once you name something, once you name it, then you can deal with it. It's almost like you have awareness. And then once you have awareness, you can have action, you know, like all these poor. I mean, how. You know the way Pam Bondi, did you see her the other day, who just shamed the survivors.

[Podcast Host]

And to just not even acknowledge.

[Marilyn Minter]

Not even acknowledge.

[Podcast Host]

Not even.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

You don't want to take responsibility for what's happened. Just say, I am sorry for what happened to you. I don't know how somebody does it.

[Marilyn Minter]

How do you sleep at night?

[Podcast Host]

Right. This should be. This should not be a red or blue issue as to whether or not the survivors deserve our respect because I just wrote a piece on this. But, you know, we failed them.

[Marilyn Minter]

And that was.

[Podcast Host]

We failed them.

[Marilyn Minter]

That was publicly shaming them just by her doing that. And we have to.

[Podcast Host]

But the dow is over 50,000.

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, of course. It's not anymore, though.

[Podcast Host]

I said the best meme I saw was it was like a split screen from A Few Good Men.

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Podcast Host]

Did you see that one? So it was Tom Cruise. Did you call for the code red? And Jack Nicholson. McDow is over 50,000. You know, it was great.

[Marilyn Minter]

I love it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's.

[Marilyn Minter]

So we can talk about it now because it's under 50. Right. Well, you know, these are some people that have been co opted by the patriarchy.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

They feel like they were going to be protected. Why is it so threatening? Have equal rights.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

What are we taking away from you having equal rights? I just don't get it. Everyone's gonna be happier. You know, you could cry in public now. Well, I wonder if you're a guy, right?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, I think, I wonder as we become a society of spectrums, more sexuality, gender, anything you can think of. I wonder if in time that will sort of like blend like you blend the edges of your paintings. That will Sort of.

[Marilyn Minter]

It will blend. It's called complexity. We have to tolerate complexity. It has to be a multiple read. Nothing's black and white. And that's what artists do. Their illustration is just telling you one thought. And illustrators are very important, especially in politics. But artists have to have that range. And I think when I get rid of shame, then don't click. Stop clicking on it. Stop responding. Let it die. Let it die. When you see somebody publicly shamed, talk about them being shamed, but don't ridicule them.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. I make a real concerted effort. I am very vocal about my views on what's happening in the world and very vocal around the actions that people, politicians, people in power take.

[Marilyn Minter]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

But I never even. Sometimes I have to catch myself about to do it. But I will never sort of share the image that is mocking someone or shaming someone for their weight or what they're wearing.

[Marilyn Minter]

I mean, maybe that's what I mean. Stop clicking. Yeah, stop clicking. I remember when somebody, whenever these movie stars get their. Their phones hacked, refused to look.

[Podcast Host]

Exactly.

[Marilyn Minter]

I wouldn't dream of looking.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it really is.

[Marilyn Minter]

But that's how it dies. That's how shame will get. Disappear. Disappeared in the culture is if we visualize it. Because it can't live in visualization. It can't live when everybody's shining a light on. Only works if it's like. It's not about guilt. With guilt, you can change your behavior and you can be redeemed. Shame is you're not allowed to be alive, you know, and it has to be taught. Kids aren't ashamed about anything.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. What's always interesting to me is that there is this part of shame where the person who's being shamed has to participate in. Because you can't be shamed unless you feel it.

[Marilyn Minter]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

And that's my point. Yeah, absolutely. And that's the part that is.

[Marilyn Minter]

Name it. Say, oh, yeah. Well, you're trying to shame me right now, aren't you? You know.

[Podcast Host]

You know, you have this phrase, maybe it's a common phrase and I just have only heard you using it, which I love. Which is engine of the culture.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And so do you feel like shame is an engine of the culture?

[Marilyn Minter]

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's how you get clicked. See how anger is the ninja in the culture, you know, it's much more powerful than. Well, what's the opposite of anger?

[Podcast Host]

Right. Joy, happiness, contentment.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. That's considered a cliche.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. But anger, you'll always click, you know, it makes you angry. Fuck them.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Well, they call it rage bait.

[Marilyn Minter]

Rage bait.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I want to go back, like, kind of go back to your early years because you have this incredible experience where you're. I think you were in high school or college. You had taken these photos of your mom. Right. Who was deep in addiction.

[Marilyn Minter]

Total addict.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

My whole family. Yeah. I'm Irish and. Yeah. And no, it's. My mother was a drug addict. But I actually wasn't. I wasn't saying that. I was just.

[Podcast Host]

No, no.

[Marilyn Minter]

My brothers and I look at these pictures. I took them when I was 19. I was an undergraduate at University of Florida.

[Podcast Host]

Yep.

[Marilyn Minter]

And we look at it and say, so what? That's our mom. That's what she always looked like.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

And I brought him back to my class and the other students went, oh, my God, that's your mother. And it was like, whoa, Waves of shame just came over.

[Podcast Host]

But then Diane Arbus, she came in

[Marilyn Minter]

and it was a really romantic school. University of Florida. And I mean, he was really good at this. The head of the department was very well known for technical abilities of putting two negatives on the same piece of paper.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

And he was great at it. And I learned it. And we all learned it. We worshiped him.

[Podcast Host]

And.

[Marilyn Minter]

But it was kind of corny and romantic. And so Diane Arbus didn't like anything. And so I was just walking by and I was an undergraduate, so I wasn't allowed to talk to the visiting artist. And so he said, marilyn, come in here. Show us your negatives. Show us your proof sheets. And she loved it. But I didn't know who she was until, like, when I moved to New York and she killed herself. I said, oh, that's the woman who liked my work when I was an undergraduate.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. When it happened, it wasn't a moment of, like, giving you this confidence.

[Marilyn Minter]

Not at all.

[Podcast Host]

I imagined I romanticized it.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I wish it was.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

I wish it was because it's so interesting. I think my mother was a nightmare.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

And how I got let back into the art world is when I showed the pictures of this high end addiction which you weren't used to seeing. You're used to seeing.

[Podcast Host]

Wait, so the photos you took when you were 19 were then part of your entryway, sort of back in the chance.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. In 1995.

[Podcast Host]

Interesting.

[Marilyn Minter]

1995. I showed those pictures and it was like, oh, she comes from dysfunction, so she must be a real artist. And it is true.

[Podcast Host]

You True.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah, it is true. Artists do come from pain. Yeah, it is true. But I was. I was back when I showed those pictures and back early on, and I was a real party girl. And so people did not take me seriously.

[Podcast Host]

Did you take yourself seriously then?

[Marilyn Minter]

Not too seriously. I try to just go with the flow all the time. I really believe in that energy.

[Podcast Host]

You have a lightness about you, and there's a momentum. Like, your energy is propulsive.

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, I love that.

[Podcast Host]

It's, like, light and propulsive and feminine.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. I don't. But if you take yourself seriously. Well, I definitely take my ideas seriously. Otherwise, I wouldn't spend so much time and energy on them. But I don't think I'm articulate like writers are or. Yeah, I don't feel like mine is visual articulation. That's my gift. I can make things in an image that. I don't really explain myself that well, I think.

[Podcast Host]

Well, I think you do. I mean, that's so interesting. So one of the things I was really struck by in Pretty Dirty was you're reading and they're showing on the screen these letters from your mom.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And she's saying really, like, horrible things. Horrible, painful things.

[Marilyn Minter]

But they didn't mean anything to me

[Podcast Host]

because that's what I didn't understand because you were talking about them, like, with a smile on your face. And so. Why? What do you mean? How did it not mean something to you?

[Marilyn Minter]

Because I knew she was high as a kite. I knew she was all fucked up. I knew she was. And my brothers and I got them all the time, you know, these letters saying, you know, how worthless we were and how. What disappointments we were.

[Podcast Host]

Equal opportunity, I guess, at least. Right.

[Marilyn Minter]

Well, I got the worst because, you know.

[Podcast Host]

Because you were the girl.

[Marilyn Minter]

Girl. Exactly. And she's a Southern belle, and she was injected with vanity at birth, you know, So I just was nothing. I was a wild kid. And so the kind of worst kind of kid to have if you're a drug addict. So she had no control over me. And at one point, by the time I was in seventh grade, I knew she was full of shit.

[Podcast Host]

Really?

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. Yeah. It was like, no, it was not anybody there that was gonna comfort me.

[Podcast Host]

So did you raise yourself, then?

[Marilyn Minter]

Yes, absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

Are you older? Your brother's older.

[Marilyn Minter]

Older. But they were six years older.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. And they were already off to college and stuff, so I sort of felt responsible for her. And I knew I had to get out of town. And it was such a toxic relationship, and it took me till I went into rehab. And that's when I started unraveling what was going on. And I spent years dealing with having such dismy. Dad died homeless, you know, at 64, as an alcoholic and a gambler and a womanizer. So I had no, I had no comfort. And I wasn't beaten. I was neglected.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, well, they say that neglect, emotional neglect, is more damaging than physical abuse.

[Marilyn Minter]

I was hungry and dirty. No one paid any attention to me, you know, and I had to learn how. So it was like I took, you know, years in therapy. I was in group therapy for eight years and also one on one therapy.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

So I had to not just. I had to see this as not a. This is not going to be my life sentence. I had to see it as, this is a life lesson. What am I going to learn from this? I do not have to be. I do not have to be destroyed by this. I can overcome not having that nurturing. And I've managed to have a real system of people around me that's a real comfort. And you could make a family of choice. And if you have a family of choice, that's a very stable place to work out ideas with. And so I can grow. And I still want to learn. I'm not satisfied yet. You know, I still challenge myself. I want to be, I still want to be better person than I was last year. You know, I want to be the person who, who takes my grocery cart back to, back to the. Yeah, I'm not going to leave it in the parking lot some days.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I probably. I leave my shopping cart in the thing more often than I put it back.

[Marilyn Minter]

I put it back. That's what. You're. My age. I didn't either when I was your age, but now I do that. I realize when Uber drivers or taxi drivers are going the wrong way. This is the hardest job in New York City. I say, okay, they had a really tough job and they don't know the streets yet and they're probably from another country. So I'm really kind and gentle in trying to explain. Instead it's like, what's wrong with you?

[Podcast Host]

What the fuck?

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah, yeah. Now this is not who I was.

[Podcast Host]

Right. Okay. I have a question because this is something that fascinates me with artists of all kinds who go through rehab because they. Were you afraid that you would lose your creative image?

[Marilyn Minter]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. But, but in 1985, when I got cleaned, there were a lot of famous artists who had already gone through. And I saw them, but it was, you know, but this is what you learn in sobriety. This is interesting. You'd think from the outside that, well, artists are supposed to get fucked up. You know, it's like the culture tells you, well, look at, you know, Jackson Pollock and look at Dorothy Parker. And look at, you know, this is. They're all alcoholics, you know, and we all read, you know, Tennessee Williams and. But when you get into sobriety, you'll. And you go to meetings, you'll hear, well, this is what everyone on Wall street says, too. Everyone on Wall street does coke, of course, you know, or every house painter. Well, this is the house painting world. We all get drunk do, you know, so it's every single. Every single profession, even though artists get it passed. Right. You know, because we're supposed to be wacky, right?

[Podcast Host]

Well, I think the idea being this sort of excessive behavior stokes your creative juices.

[Marilyn Minter]

That's the opposite. It's maybe, you know, there was a moment when I thought, when I was in college, I smoked grass and I'll be a better. And I saw the hippies around me and I was ambitious. And I thought they just, you know, they were smoking a joint every 20 minutes and they just weren't making anything anymore. But I didn't put those things together until years later. And what I saw was once I took away substances that I could get in touch with and I could listen to that inner voice, you know, and I could feel, you know, There was a painting by Sigmar Polka, and the name of the painting is God told me to paint this corner black. And I thought, that's what art does. Paintings tell you what to do. And if you talk to writers, they will tell you, well, it just started, you know, the characters just flowed. And that's what happens when you're working in a painting. You got a couple of them here, and then one of them will say, well, do this, you know, and the paintings. And I didn't know that. I thought I had to tell the paintings what to do. I had to tell the photos what to do. And now I go with the flow. And sometimes I'm shooting and I look at the digital images on the computer and I think, when did I shoot that? I'm in the zone. So you want to be in the zone. And I think substances block the zone.

[Podcast Host]

Interesting.

[Marilyn Minter]

And I didn't know that. I'm closer and closer because I've been sober and clean for a long time. And sometimes I think I don't know what I'm going to do. I go in the bathroom and I say, okay, show Me, what I'm supposed to do now to my higher power. And then I don't know what I'm gonna shoot. I don't know if that's gonna work. I just do it anyway. And then eventually I forget what's going on. Like, even doing this, I stopped. I forgot. Oh, yeah. I'm on camera.

[Podcast Host]

Well, yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

It's better to not even recognize it. Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And I watch every edit, so I make sure there's not an unflamed, flattering moment for you. So.

[Marilyn Minter]

Well, I trusted.

[Podcast Host]

Well, good.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah, totally. I trusted the documentary filmmakers, too.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's a. It's a fantastic. It's really fantastic.

[Marilyn Minter]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's. I think you talked about. Was it maybe seven or nine years after your mom had passed, you had forgiven her?

[Marilyn Minter]

I've forgiven her because. Because I forgot to finish that statement. When I showed the photos of my mom, all of a sudden, people were shocked. And then all of a sudden, I started selling work again, and I thought, oh, wow, mom, thanks.

[Podcast Host]

Did you grieve her?

[Marilyn Minter]

Never.

[Podcast Host]

Never. Okay. Did you grieve, like, for little Marilyn who didn't have the mom?

[Marilyn Minter]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So didn't have the mom or maternal force.

[Marilyn Minter]

I grieve little Marilyn, but I couldn't grieve of my mother. I think she. Without even knowing it, she. Because she was such a narcissist, she really didn't have a chance. And she was so steeped in that Southern culture. Well, butter wouldn't melt in your mouth, you know, but you're just vicious. And she totally believed, the band's gonna come along and take care of her for the rest of her life. She was a very smart woman. She used to read the dictionary for fun. Wow. Yeah, I know. But she was so damaged and so limited.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Marilyn Minter]

And she was.

[Podcast Host]

Without violating their privacy. And you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but I'm curious how all of this impacted your brothers. Did they become artists as well?

[Marilyn Minter]

One of them just died at an institution because he had dementia from alcohol.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Marilyn Minter]

And no people in my family. I mean, I go visit. I go to rehabs, and I go to halfway houses and I buy literature. But there's some people in my family that are in recovery. And so it sort of feeds my brother, my older brother, he definitely is learned. And I think that once you're aware of addiction, it's, you know, and then you see that it's garden variety. You're not, like, special. And there are all these people that go through exactly what you're going through. Right, Right. Yeah. Do you wake up?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

What you learn about addiction?

[Podcast Host]

Right. Okay, so the last question I ask everybody is if there's anything you're working on reclaiming. And it can be a place, an emotion, a hobby. One person reclaimed their sun sign or rising sign.

[Marilyn Minter]

I love that.

[Podcast Host]

Glennon Doyle. Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

Oh, of course. Well, I think you reclaim toxic shame. You reclaim it and you destabilize it by making it visual. And that's my goal, too.

[Podcast Host]

You have done that in spades with your incredible work, with your activism and artistic artistry. Artistness.

[Marilyn Minter]

I like artistness.

[Podcast Host]

Artistness. But, yeah. Marilyn, thank you so much for doing this.

[Marilyn Minter]

Well, thank you for asking. Most people don't care what artists think.

[Podcast Host]

Well, I do. I care a lot. I think artists, voices are the ones that are the most reflective of our culture.

[Marilyn Minter]

I think that's our job. We have to make a picture of our times.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Marilyn Minter]

These are the artists I admire the most.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. But I really cotton to that phrase that you used about engine of the culture. These engines of the culture.

[Marilyn Minter]

Yeah. If we examine them, we can see what's going on. You name things that changes the meaning. Awareness is everything. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Don't fuck with us. Don't fuck with us.

[Marilyn Minter]

That's right.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you for doing this, Marilyn.

[Marilyn Minter]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

This is great.

[Marilyn Minter]

Sa.