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- [00:00]
A
Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.
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B
Of course. I do have a lot of experience with dealing with mental health, and there are some tricks I can share and little things that I do, but that's. That's 10 seconds worth of stuff. You know, the, the thing that I've found to be most impactful is just I'm nervous and I'm sad and I'm lost and I'm confused and this is what I'm thinking about. And do you want to share it here?
- [00:54]
A
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B
Thank you.
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A
I am so excited to have this chat. You've kind of been on this amazing mental health advocacy journey, right? Most people, a lot of people know you from your acting and producing on the Morning show and Good American Family. I'm always calling it the wrong thing and the League and togetherness, all sorts of things. And then you still have or had with your brother Jay, The Duplass brothers.
- [03:06]
B
Yep. That's still a huge part of what we do.
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A
That's what I thought. But we had Tony Hawk on a few months ago.
- [03:12]
B
Love, Tony.
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A
Love, Tony. I got a signed deck. I think that's what it's called, right? A deck. You guys produced his documentary until the Wheels Fall off, which was amazing. So it was a really. It was a really good chat. He's a good guy.
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B
He's an inspiring guy.
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A
Yeah. Really. I've known him for. Not well, but we met a long time ago.
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B
Wow.
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A
So kind of in the midst of our. We both had, like, rise to attention around the same times. His was positive, mine was not. And so I think it was just. It was a really interesting conversation.
- [03:48]
B
That's very interesting. Yeah. He's really such a. An interesting example of, you know, he just stayed on that skateboard, and he stayed with it. And mentally, spiritually, physically, what he's been able to do by staying close to the object of his very early passion has really rewarded him. And it's not always the case for people, but in his case, really cool.
- [04:10]
A
I don't know why I'm nervous today. I'm like, extra nervous.
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B
Well, we've been Internet friends for a little bit. I find that an odd thing. Like, you know, I got two daughters, and I'm thinking about all the. The ills of social media and whatnot. But I also try to be fair and I think about the good things on the other side of it, you know?
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I love that, like, you and I started messaging each other for some reasons, we.
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A
Right.
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B
We just liked what we were doing.
- [04:38]
A
Yeah, exactly.
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B
It allowed us a way to reach out to each other. So maybe it is. I find it always a little strange that I feel like I know you, but this is the first time I'm in the same room with you.
- [04:48]
A
I don't know if you ever feel this, but I think when there's a lot happening, my tank is sometimes not as full. And so then it means I end up showing up differently to things like, oh, yeah, 100%. How are you doing today?
- [05:07]
B
I've been on a pretty decent run lately as far as my mental health is concerned. And I would love to be able to diagnose that and say it's because of this, it's because of that, but there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason when things go well or good for me. There can be times in my life where I am stressed and overworked and underslept and I'm doing okay, and I don't think it's just adrenaline, you know? And then there can be times when I'm at my best. Nine hours of sleep, exercise schedule perfectly. Medication perfectly dialed in, meditation perfectly dialed in. Like I'm doing everything.
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A
No sugar.
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B
Yeah. And then I wake up and I hit the deck, you know, And I don't know why. It's. I almost liken it to having a bad back sometimes where it's just like, you help your friend move all day long, your back feels fine, you bend over to pick up a penny and you're like, can't move for a week.
- [06:08]
A
You know, I find somehow I've had to learn packing. I've had to pack because I would often. I don't know what it was, but there was something I was doing and packing that I would then be like, oh, fuck.
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B
And that movement. Yeah. And so I am. I'm trying to find that balance of not trying to live my life as a detective, trying to diagnose all of the things that may or may not be putting me into a mental health hole and just trying to drop more into my center, examine where I'm at that day. And, you know, the. The big thing for me, whenever I start to feel that little buzz, that thing that you're kind of feeling right now in that chair, it's like, try to catch it as early as I can.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And then I just tell myself, okay, back to the center.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I do that quick little body scan. What's going on here? Like, just to be present in my body. And then I tell myself two words. Relax, enjoy. And that is the only thing that has been able to consistently help me through my mental health journey. And just this gentle reminder of it's insane that my father sperm found my mother's egg on that one day, and that I'm here at all at one of the most interesting times in humanity. The greatest technological curve possible, probably nearing the end of our species.
- [07:32]
A
Thousand percent.
- [07:33]
B
Um. And so what am I complaining about? Even just to sit here and be an objective observer and watch the movie of everything going around is such a treat. And so that's my core philosophy. And then because I don't like to pressure myself, I just say, and if I can maintain that sort of wisdom 51% of the time, that's a good life.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. My sort of mantra is relaxed, centered and expansive.
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B
Wow.
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A
So the sort of. The relaxed Part of trying to remember.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You know, it's that how I want to show up. But it is. It's interesting. I mean, do you. Do you're talking what you were saying about scanning your body? So have you done somatic work?
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B
I haven't done that now.
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A
Okay. Oh, interesting.
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B
Am I gonna go do that right after I leave here?
- [08:21]
A
Well, you might already.
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B
Are you gonna hand me a pamphlet? Will you come to the cult?
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A
Exactly. No. I mean, it's something I started doing during the pandemic. My. My therapist, who's a trauma psychiatrist, she was like, okay, I think we need to add someone else to the many. The many people on my team. And. And it was really interesting to even just start to realize how disconnected from my body I was.
- [08:51]
B
I think that that's the major source. That's what my therapist would tell me is the major source of where a lot of that begins for me is the disconnection. And, you know, you talked about it earlier as being a bit of a depletion. I call it the soul points, which is basically like your reserves of what you have and some things you do, you know, are at the same time, they're outputting. They're actually inputting, you know, either getting equal or even. Even more. You know, you're helping a friend move who really needs you, and they so appreciate you, and you appreciate them. And while that is like putting some stuff out, you're actually refilling it at the same time. But. But when those reserves are. Are low, I tend to get in some sort of low little fight or flight mode, and I start to get. Starts to hover above my body and start to lose myself. And that really is the beginning of the woog most of the time for me.
- [09:42]
A
And can you explain in detail what the woog is?
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B
The woog for me is a completely made up word. But I like to make up words a lot. I come from that kind of a family.
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A
Ditto.
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B
We have all these words, by the way, that, like, have been part of my children's vernacular. And then they show up at preschool and start saying all these things, and no one knows what they're talking about. I'm like, I forgot to tell you that this is just our language.
- [10:07]
A
But how about. How about just your own experience of the times as a kid where you use the words and then you realize, like, mom, how come nobody else knows? You know, this is a pooza.
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B
Yes. Like, it's the great. My little Molly, when she was 5, she went to kindergarten and, you know, or actually I think it was preschool, and in our family, if you got a poop, you gotta make boopas. Bupas is the word. Okay. Boopas. I'm like, all right. So she's saying this, you know, and she's telling me how she's trying to tell her teacher she's gotta make boobas. Teacher doesn't know what's going on. She brings it home. And I said, molly, I forgot to tell you, like, that's just a word that we use in the family for needing to go to the bathroom. She goes, wait, bathroom's one of our words, too. I was saying that to everybody. I was like, no, no, no, that's a different one.
- [10:53]
A
Oh, my God. Yeah, our family. It was. I can't believe evidence say this on a podcast, but it was like a gassy. Yeah, I hate the F word for that. So I don't use it. But was a puck always? Yeah, it was like, who pooked? You know?
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B
You know what? The hard K at the end of that is good, too, because it's got a nice little book.
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A
Exactly.
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B
It's an onomatopoeia, actually. It sounds like what it is. Anyway, back to the woog, which is not an onomatopoeia. It's just a word I made up, which, you know, I have found that depression and anxiety, in my case, tend to be two different sides of the same coin. You know, for me, it feels like the depression was first and foremost, and my intense desire to fight that, my intense desire to not allow it to be there and muscle it into something else, started to create an anxiety. So it's almost like in the Type A personality, the depression can manifest as anxiety. That's just my own sort of feeling about it. So I just like to encompass it all in this one word that I call the wook. And I can be woogie, can be woog in that day, or the wood itself can come get you like the man. I also like to diminish it with a childlike nickname so that its power won't reign supreme over me. And the wog, for me, has been around my whole life, and it's been a really interesting journey from being five years old and not understanding at all what it was. Waking up in the morning and telling my parents, I'm starving. My stomach is so empty, I'm starving. And I didn't realize that that was a depressive hole. I just could only identify something in my core feeling empty as a lack of food, and then realizing that I was the kid who skipped the most Amount of days possible at school with fake illnesses because I was having social anxiety and afraid to go to school to 18, having my first panic attacks and thinking, well, I must be dying of cancer, because I don't know what this is. And I have. I really mean this. I'm not just saying this on podcast. Excellent parents. You know, born in the 70s in New Orleans, Louisiana. We just weren't exposed to these kind of tools. It wasn't in our vernacular, but they were loving and they were there for me. They just didn't know to say, oh, maybe we should look at, you know, therapy.
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A
Anxiety wasn't even a word.
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B
It's just not a thing. It's just not a thing. So. So there was nothing done wrong there, you know?
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A
Right.
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B
But then the. The journey for me became much more acute as I identified as an artist. I knew it was something I wanted to do. I went to a very pressure cooker. Jesuit High school in New Orleans.
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A
Okay.
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B
All my friends graduated from college and started making really good money, great jobs, and I was a struggling musician at the time. And it was like a little sad. And I didn't realize how much my. In general, I would call my fortitude, my willpower, my work ethic were causing such deep mental health issues. And to put a finer point on that, what I would say is that the average person that was dealing with as much anxiety and depression as I was would have crumbled a lot earlier, but I had an incredible amount of willpower, and so I could keep going and I could sisyphus many more boulders than the average person. As a Southern raised male with full confidence, no shame. That's the difference in yours and my path. I did not have that shame there. That's great. It was, you go, boy. You're. You're. You're the beautiful Southern boy. You go get him. And. But because of that, I put so much pressure on myself to power through that it started to manifest in my body. And I started getting these intense neck and stress pains, repetitive stress injuries through my arms so much that I couldn't. Almost crippled me. I couldn't play music anymore.
- [14:58]
A
Okay.
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B
And then I had to make a switch in my career, which I did. I moved over into making films. And what happened was really interesting is that I was able to somehow, as a very depressed and anxious person, no therapy, no medication, rise to the top of a pretty interesting mountain, like feature film at the Sundance Film Festival.
- [15:25]
A
Big ages in your 20s.
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B
And I'm 27 years old and I'm doing it, you know, but it wasn't until I reached that first mountaintop and looked around that something about the exhaustion, the adrenaline crash, the. I'm not climbing, so I have to look at myself. That's when I had my first big nervous breakdown, was right around 27, 28.
- [15:49]
A
Have you ever read the book Hope for the Flowers?
- [15:52]
B
I haven't heard of it.
- [15:53]
A
I'll send it to you. It's sort of this. I don't know. I don't totally understand why it's always in the Christian section of the book. But it's this whole thing about the sort of lesson that we're taught by how we are raised to sort of always look to the top. And the idea around people getting to the top and there not being anything there, but not talking about it, you know, because that's.
- [16:20]
B
It's the most terrifying moment.
- [16:22]
A
Right.
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B
You know, here I am. I got here. Here's my dream.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Wait, I'm not happy. Holy shit. What do I do now?
- [16:29]
A
Right. Well. And that sort of becomes this. I don't always explain this well. I've had other people talk to me about the horizontal and the vertical, sort of spiritually. And I think it is that sense of we're trying to go on these paths that are a journey that have been set out for us in society. Right. But it's really actually about going up spiritually, you know? Now, I've always felt like I call my depression functioning depression, because I've not. I mean, maybe I could count if I had to sit and think for a while on both hands how many times I've not gotten out of bed. And so does that. Is that what it feels like to you?
- [17:12]
B
That's what it felt like to me until I had my nervous breakdown. And I could make it work. And I wasn't happy or fulfilled. I had zero peace in my life. But I was able to still continue climbing the mountain that I felt I needed to climb towards mostly career success, mostly that. And when I had that breakdown, you know, my father always jokes about me. We're very, very close. And he says, you got. You got two speeds. You got go and you got crash. You know, that's what you got. And that crash was really, really difficult. It was at a time when the industry now knew who I was. So they were waiting for me to take the general meetings and pitch the movies. I had been dating Katie for three and a half years, and we had dreams of getting married. And so I was carrying all of that Southern male stuff as well, of I want to Be a provider. I want to be on my feet. I want to be a husband that she wants to marry, not someone who can't get out of bed. And in my mind at the time, the unknowable nature of what I was going through felt like I may never be functional again. And so that's that thing that a lot of people talk about. There's. There's the fear, the anxiety, the depression, but then there's the fear of the fear itself, which can start to perpetuate.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I had no skills and no coping mechanisms, and I didn't have any mentors in my life. I had my brother. We were very, very close. But in many ways, the way that Jay and I functioned, coming into the independent film world from the suburbs of New Orleans with no connections, no business being there at all, it was very much a sort of immigrant mentality of it's not time to think about our feelings. We're trying to raise up a generation and start a new track. We may not get there, but maybe someone else will. And so we weren't thinking about balance. We were thinking about hacking a road, you know?
- [19:17]
A
And you did.
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B
And we did. But it. It led to some. Some damage there. So thankful. No, go ahead.
- [19:24]
A
No, no. I was just gonna say I heard you talking on. I think it's death, sex and money. And you were talking about this time period with Katie and that, you know, you guys were gonna get married. And it was really moving to me to hear you talk about. And I think so eye opening, probably, for a lot of people of that. Like, that other layer of being known and sort of what you're. What you're. Here you are. You're two people who know so much about each other and want to share your lives and build a family and all those things, and that deep fear of that thing inside you and how you ended up having to overcome. And it was just. I mean, I don't want to speak for you, but it's just. I loved hearing about it.
- [20:09]
B
It's like a werewolf movie. It's like, oh, I had no idea. I'd spent 29 days with Katie. And on the 30th day, the full moon came out, and there was something inside of me that I hadn't seen before and she hadn't seen. And we were like, what do we do with this thing? And that's where the shame started to come in for me, because I had been told a story, which is, Mark, you're intelligent. You're incredible. You're amazing. You can do anything, which is a nice way to be parented, but comes with some pressure. And I felt like I was letting everyone down and including my brother, who was my partner, including my, you know, Katie, who I had basically built an entire life with. We were living together at this point, you know, including my parents, who had, you know, expectations of me that they're, again, they're lovely, but, you know, they really saw what I could do. And it was like one of these moments where, like, a little angel came to me. I decided to just go to, like, the. The Bob Hope SAG Health Clinic and just be like, I should probably check out, like, my heart, because, like, I'm having heart palpitations and make sure, like, that's functioning right. I wasn't even thinking about, like, therapy, medication, any of that stuff. And there was an older doctor there. He was, like, 80 years old. His name was Murray Hykeman. And he looked at me in this way, and I was like, oh, something's gonna. Something's happening here. I think I'm about to have some sort of goodwill hunting. I don't know what's happening. And. And I was talking really, really fast, and he's like, hold on, hold on. Just. Just. Just be quiet. You're having a really, really hard time, aren't you? And I was like. And I just broke down.
- [21:49]
A
I'm like, I feel that I just.
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B
Broke down just sobbing, you know. And he started to very gently suggest to me that I might need to see a therapist and I might need to think about medication. And I was so resistant.
- [22:03]
A
Yeah.
- [22:04]
B
Was that particularly to the medication? The therapy I was open to and, you know, therapy for those of us who have been, I think, is. Has been quite demystified in the culture and destigmatized.
- [22:16]
A
Oh, yeah. But since we were growing up.
- [22:18]
B
Yeah. But the medication is still very much there. Right. So the therapist thing was fine, although I wish someone had prepared me. And if anyone is listening to this, is thinking, like, maybe I should go to therapy, one thing I'll prepare you for is that I went to a therapist and. And I was like, this doesn't work for me. The truth is, it wasn't therapy. It's just that it. That wasn't the right therapist. It's a dating game. You're gonna two to seven on average. You're gonna meet where you find the right fit. It's gotta be someone who's got your number, who's smarter than you in the right ways, but still respects you. It's a very specific thing. To get a good one, you know, So I found that. But was still very resistant to the medication, you know, And I just. All of these things that I was identifying as a man, you know, with a. Is it going to harm my ability to be truly creative? I heard that, you know, things like Prozac and Zoloft that can, like, deaden that impulse. I was worried about the deadening of the libido. And you heard, like, people have, like, erectile dysfunction and. Or libido stuff, weight gain issues that can happen with it, you know, all these things. So it's like my ego's mixed up in all of this stuff. And I would love to say that eventually I got to the point where I challenged myself and I transcended my fear about all of that. But the truth was I was just desperate. And I was like, I can't live like this, so I'm gonna have to try something. And I tried my first medication. I used Zoloft at first.
- [23:50]
A
I've been on that.
- [23:51]
B
And the side effects were a little heavy for me. And they said, you know, try and move over to another one. And then I got lucky on my second one. Celexa really agree with me. There's a nice middle. Middle dose. 20 milligrams of celexa was like this. Yeah, nice dose for me. And after about 30 days of being on that, it was like, not just back to where I was at 27, before I had this break. It was to a whole new place. And the only way I can describe it is, like, ever have those, like, long sicknesses, like the cold that's lingering?
- [24:28]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [24:29]
B
And then on like, day eight, you're like, am I actually normal and I'm going crazy, or do I feel bad because I don't know what it's like anymore? And then you wake up the next day and you're like, oh, that's what it's like to feel better.
- [24:39]
A
Yeah.
- [24:40]
B
And I had never. I couldn't believe how long I had been suffering under this.
- [24:47]
A
I don't know why, what's coming up for me. So I'm gonna say it and we'll see if it goes anywhere interesting. I just remembering about. I hadn't been on medication, but for like a few days after I had a termination procedure. The. I should say abortion. And the doctor put me on meds, and it's a whole other story. But I then went off and I remember this very distinct period in 98 when I had learned, like, oh, this shit's gonna hit the fan. This is going to become public at some. I'm like, this is awful. I'm in legal trouble.
- [25:23]
B
This is the quiet before the storm.
- [25:25]
A
Exactly. And then in this period and now it becomes public, and my attorneys are trying to get me immunity. And so they wouldn't let me talk to a psychiatrist and go on medication because they were worried about, like, was that going to impact, you know, because this is 98, right. There was a lot. There's still stigma about medication, but almost 30 years ago, like, so this whole idea of, you know, and just the. The waiting. And I look back on it now and I think, oh, my God, like, how did I and my family, how did we get through this without even Xanax or anything? You know, these first few weeks until I could finally get help. And then. And then when I got immunity, I had to. I had to. In order to get it, I had to tell them what drugs I was on. And it's just a really.
- [26:17]
B
It's, you know, it's not that long ago. No, that's only 27 years ago we're talking about that. I mean, it's funny you mentioned that as you're talking about that. You know, what occurs to me is, like, about a year ago, I just, through no careful plotting or planning or messaging or anything, just decided to share a picture of myself on Instagram smiling big. I happened to have, like, a really nice haircut and the beard was trimmed. Like, I looked really good in it, you know, And I was like. And I was in a tuxedo. Tuxedo.
- [26:53]
A
And like daughters and wife giving you.
- [26:55]
B
The whole thing, you know, And I put that thing up and I was just like, there are a lot of you out there who see this picture and think about Mark D plus's perfect life. And I just want to take a moment to demystify this. And I just talked about, you know, my mental health struggles and. And I really, genuinely in my mind was thinking, like, whatever. This is just like one other random posts and the outpouring of people, not only support, which was lovely, but people finding a platform where they could talk about it. It was quite shocking to me. And I guess I realized how much I live in my own little bubble of therapized, emotionally interested artists where, you know, on game night, everybody's talking about what medication they're on. Like, it's just like, we're just open, you know, But I realize how. How people just aren't talking about this. And so it sort of, after that moment, made me realize, as you've been talking about, like, holy cow, this is such a big thing and so taboo in so many ways, made me realize, like, oh, this is probably something that has fallen into my lap that I should talk about more.
- [28:04]
A
Right. I wonder. It's interesting. What you're sort of bringing up for me is I wonder if there's an interesting campaign to be done sort of in that connection of, you know, everybody gets fomo. This sort of false way that we create these, you know, images online and these lives online and that, you know, what you're saying, you're posting, that being a public person, people having this perception of your life, creating a space for other people to kind of be more honest and open about it, you know, just so important.
- [28:39]
B
I think it's so important. And I think that not just being a celebrity, I think that anyone who has 386 followers and they go on a vacation and they post the best eight pictures of their vacation, essentially the result of that, whether you intend it or not, is usually going to be someone thinks you're cooler, they feel bad about themselves, and they probably feel a little bit further away from you in reduction of intimacy because they're thinking your life is a little better than theirs. And I have spent a lot of time in my life because of my rather large ego, and my relationship with it is very complicated. It's not a bad thing. It's been good for me in some ways, but realizing how much I'm trying to get people to respect me and think I'm amazing, you know, and you and I are not above it. There's probably some shit we're doing right now in this podcast, but it's like, I did this, and this is why I'm so smart and so good, you know, it's like, it's just. I can't help this.
- [29:38]
A
Let me drop the.
- [29:39]
B
Yeah, let me drop this.
- [29:40]
A
Terms from graduate students school that I learned.
- [29:42]
B
Yeah, 100%, you know, and I still. Still doing it all the time. But what I. What I. What I've begun to realize, my brother and I are very close, and we're good at pointing these things out in each other, you know, and he always told me this. He's like, I have always enjoyed our relationship most when you are having your hardest times, because there's a vulnerability about you and there's this sweetness about you and the way that you are. And, like, yeah, you're probably, like, a little less funny with your jokes and, like, you know, but there's something about you that just makes me feel you and deeply understand you. And I just know that like, of all the people, you know, who you're watching post on Instagram and whatnot, like, think about them and think about if they're posting the beautiful picture at the sunset light in Tuscany from their trip. Or is it more endearing to see the time that they were at the airport and the flight was delayed 2 1/2 hours and the good restaurant was closed and they had to eat that shitty Starbucks sandwich and they're just fucking sweaty and miserable waiting for the. I mean, that to me is what connects us as human beings and I wish we would be sharing more of those things. And look, I'm a person with grace and I understand, like we need our ups sometimes and we need our likes. But for me, at this point in my life, I just find that I'm not. Let me rephrase. My engine is telling me go for respect and go for cool and go for likes. But my deep down voice is saying, just share the vulnerabilities. And it always increases the intimacy. Always.
- [31:29]
A
I mean, it's. For me, I think that started to be this. I can't find the right word. It's like a sort of symbiotic thing. Maybe for me in the last 10 years of kind of reclaiming my narrative and stepping back out publicly on my own terms, of all the times that I've been really scared to do something or I'm worried about what's going to happen. And when I start to hear, you know, like after my TED Talk and I remember this one teacher posting something that telling me their student had had a hard time and they, you know, told them to watch my TED talk and it helped them. Or a guy who came up to me who told me, you know, he had been diagnosed HIV positive and that that hit the talk had helped him there. And you start to really realize the privilege of being able to help ease someone else's suffering by being vulnerable and being open and talking about your own. And I think it is so important and it is, I think it's a responsibility in a way of people who have public platforms if they can. You know, I think it's like in the anti bullying world, I don't agree with this thing of like, you have to always stand up to a bully. Not everybody is equipped.
- [32:52]
B
That's right.
- [32:53]
A
Right. And so I'm not saying everybody's equipp to talk about their, their foibles and their emotional state, but you know, if you feel you can and yours, you now you were talking about this photo of you in the tuxedo, but is that different from the post that you did in 2023 or is that the.
- [33:12]
B
That's the same one. Same.
- [33:13]
A
Same one. Okay.
- [33:14]
B
And so I. From that I sort of started to create a series of posts. I just posted these pictures of me looking up at a camera and.
- [33:22]
A
And Right. And out running.
- [33:24]
B
Yeah, yeah, I just dropped some. Usually it's about something I'm feeling confused about and uncertain about and the sharing of that has been much more impactful than. And boy, have I got the solution for you.
- [33:44]
A
Those.
- [33:44]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, like, of course, I do have a lot of experience with dealing with mental health and there are some tricks I can share and little things that I do, but that's 10 seconds worth of stuff. You know, the thing that I've found to be most impactful is just I'm nervous and I'm sad and I'm lost and I'm confused and this is what I'm thinking about and do you want to share it here has been the most. The most impactful.
- [34:19]
A
Reclaiming is brought to you by Audible. If some of you recall, Reclaiming has teamed up with Audible for our very own little listening club. From now until December, I'll be handpicking audiobooks that I'm absolutely thrilled to share with all of you. What makes this so special is that we get to experience these stories together with the same narrator, bringing the same characters to life for all of us. And there's just something magical about knowing we're all hearing the same voices, living through the same swoon worthy moments and feeling our hearts flutter at the same declarations of love. Whether you're an audiobook pro or completely new to the world of romance novels, you're absolutely welcome here. If you've got a long commute or always on the move, or maybe you just prefer listening to reading. Well, this club is perfect for you. And if you're anything like me and love getting lost in a great story, you're in for a treat. I've been getting so much done while listening. From whipping up dinner. Okay, just kidding, I don't actually cook. To tidying up around the house, commuting to the recording studio or taking my morning walks. If you talk about the perfect combination, that's it. This month I'm completely absorbed in Pride and Prejudice. After our last title, I thought, well, what could be better than diving into something softer and a heart melting story? I had seen all the movies and series based on the book and had Read it once. But listening was a whole new wonderful experience. I was transported in the most magical of ways. Ready to fall in love with some amazing stories together. Just head over to audible.comreclaiming and get started with a free 30 day trial. That's audible.comreclaiming at Maurices, we're all about great jeans. You know, the ones that fit you just right, the ones that simply make you feel good. Because you don't just wear jeans, you live in them. Find great jeans starting at 29.90 in stores and@marisa's.com. yeah, yeah, it's. I have found both in the. Well, actually in. In several areas, I think with my mental health, I guess sometimes the real extreme of those which thank God I haven't had for a long time of not wanting to be here anymore.
- [36:43]
B
Yeah.
- [36:44]
A
And also when things fall apart in life that are work things, you know that every time you get through one, it's somehow a little easier the next time. That's what I like. Because somewhere in your brain is lodged that thing of you've been here before and you got through. I know it feels like this is worse and it's. No, no, you're gonna see you're wrong. Now this time, like this time, it's it.
- [37:08]
B
That's right.
- [37:09]
A
There is something there about that kernel of hope, you know, that the bottom.
- [37:14]
B
Floor raises itself every time you come through a cycle.
- [37:17]
A
Yeah, that's a great way to put it.
- [37:18]
B
And when you hit bottom, it takes a couple of milliseconds less and it hurts a couple of kilopounds less. You know, when you hit, you know, and you bounce a little bit more quickly. It is really, really true because that first breakdown I had at 28, it took me about a month to pull myself out, you know, just slowly dragging myself out to the sidewalk for walks and all these things, you know, am I. I'm not only more quick to catch the signals so that I don't drop as far, but I don't drop as far even when it happens because I know I have the skill sets so I'm less afraid of it.
- [37:54]
A
Yeah. Well, that's interesting. So that's a really interesting point. That's really interesting that you're sort of. And that's probably a great cycle. That helps. Not getting so depressed is not really.
- [38:07]
B
Yeah. The fear of the fear, as I mentioned before, is a really, really big. A big part of the cycle of this thing.
- [38:14]
A
I really connected to what you were saying much earlier on too about being the detective, about Trying to. I think there's that. I know I have. Anybody who listens to this, who knows me well is gonna laugh that I'm like a control freak. And so I think there is that sense of, if you can be a good enough detective, it won't happen again.
- [38:36]
B
That's right.
- [38:37]
A
And so much of the work I have to do is on accepting it's here.
- [38:41]
B
Yes.
- [38:42]
A
You know, and so where's the line?
- [38:44]
B
I don't know. Because some detective work is really good.
- [38:47]
A
Yeah.
- [38:48]
B
Some detective work have brought me to the systems that I have in place that are very good. But then at a certain point, you go over the line, and then your life becomes about trying to fix this problem. And so the problem itself inherently becomes that much larger in your life. So I have to kind of come up with this arbitrary decision at a certain point to just say, like, all right, that's enough good work to put into this one. And the rest of it is going to be more about trying to be happy in the moment with what I've.
- [39:17]
A
Got going and accepting, which is also really hard.
- [39:20]
B
Sometimes it's hard, man.
- [39:21]
A
It's really. It's hard to be in the moment. And sometimes. I don't know. For me, I think I find sometimes it's really hard to be happy or it's hard to be proud of myself. Like, I. You know, it was.
- [39:36]
B
You have a hard time being proud of yourself.
- [39:38]
A
Yeah, I do. I do. I came up with one. Well, one thing unfolded for me when I was the morning of graduation for graduate school, and I was staring at the ceiling in the morning, just going, why do I feel nothing?
- [39:54]
B
Yeah.
- [39:54]
A
And I thought if I ran into someone that I hadn't seen in a year and a half, and they said, oh, yeah, I'm going to graduate from LSE today with a master's in social psychology, I would have walked away going, fuck. I could never do that. And that sort of allowed me to step into that a bit.
- [40:17]
B
Yeah.
- [40:18]
A
But I think I still.
- [40:20]
B
That's an intellectual process. It's hard to ingest that and feel it in your bones.
- [40:25]
A
Yeah, it's helpful, I think. It just is hard sometimes to. I think I have this. It's so annoying. It's just this. It's like a very unhealthy construct around, like, if I enjoy it too much, it's going to be taken away, you know? So I don't know. I don't know. I don't know where that comes from.
- [40:50]
B
I don't. Look, I don't want you to Feel like I'm like, you know, waxing your car here in any way, shape or form. But like, I look at you objectively, I don't know you that well. I know your story. And I think about one of the most unfairly maligned people at the beginning of what our press turned into in the last 30 years. And if all you did after that was get up and get a job at Starbucks and watch TV at night to cope, you should be really proud of yourself if that was all you did and then you've done this. So it is crazy to me to sit across from you and hear you say that you have a hard time being proud of yourself and, and what a look, what a testament to how hard it is to overcome, reclaim all these things we're doing, that you've come this far and still can't really look at yourself in the mirror and say, good on you.
- [42:05]
A
I have moments. I have moments. I do have moments.
- [42:08]
B
Good.
- [42:09]
A
And I think I'm getting the better at that, that there's, I think even saying it out loud for me is sometimes so. Saying it out loud to someone else. Yeah, the hearing of it. And I, I think I'm getting better at. I just said this the other day, I think in my, in my personal life, like in how. Well, I'm really proud of myself because I could have been an electric fence in this moment.
- [42:37]
B
Yeah.
- [42:38]
A
Three years ago I would have, we would have ended up in an enormous fight. And instead I was able to kind of like come from a different place. And you know, my therapist taught me it's really important to notice the differences even when they're small, because that's what starts to help the psyche feel safe, you know, is like noticing, oh, this is different. It's not the same as it always was. No matter how tiny that thing is, you know, it's what kind of like if you've feel comfortable talking about it, what kind of systems do you have in place when you say that?
- [43:13]
B
So a lot of them are pretty basic and they're not rocket science. For me, sleep is the number one element because without the sleep it's just a self deteriorating cycle for most people. But make sure you're getting at least 15 to 20 minutes of rigorous exercise that has a sweat, that has your heart rate up, ideally in the 160s, 170s. And what that will do is if you're unsure, should I take this nap? Am I napping because I'm depressed? No, you're napping because you're exhausted. From this exercise. And you're gonna refuel yourself, so that's huge. So sleep exercise number one. And number two, just a quick five item gratitude list every morning. And the smaller the better. Because if you're doing big gratitude items that only come once a year, they seem less attainable. But if they're tiny gratitude items like the first sip of my coffee, you can get that every day, you know.
- [44:13]
A
Right.
- [44:14]
B
Meditation is very important. Being extremely consistent with my medication and taking them at the same times. And also weird thing, but this gets a lot of people is a lot of times your medication gets bounced around to different manufacturers.
- [44:29]
A
Yes.
- [44:29]
B
And not every manufacturer makes them the.
- [44:32]
A
Exact same way they're allowed to have. I think it's. It's 20% difference and it will change you.
- [44:37]
B
So when you get one that you like, fight for it because it's not nothing. And you know, for me, I have to keep reminding myself that it's the least sexy thing in the whole world. But a balanced day and a balanced week and a balanced month and a balanced year is the key. Because I, and I know a lot of people identify with this when I say this. When something starts to feel wrong inside of you, your instinct and the wrong it feels is to make a big tectonic shift in your life. Oh, I got to switch my job. Oh, I got to break up with this person. Because it's that and it usually isn't that. It's usually a question of degrees. And now I'm not saying it isn't that.
- [45:17]
A
Right. You know, but sometimes it's. It's sort of that thing of. It's like the noticing of how something comes to you.
- [45:25]
B
Yes.
- [45:25]
A
Right. Like the whisper that sort of through the room, you know, versus the you should be. Or here's this big idea. So it is. That's really interesting. I haven't thought about that, about the changes. I think for me, I've tried to really be mindful about. Just because there's room in the schedule doesn't mean I have to be really careful about over scheduling myself. Because I want to please. I want to do all the things and sometimes I have to just accept, like, it's been interesting. I eped this show on Amanda Knox. My PTSD shows up differently than Amanda's. She can do all these interviews and I'm like, I can't, I can't.
- [46:13]
B
Can you diagnose why? Personality.
- [46:19]
A
Yeah, it might be personality. For me, I have to do so much to show up, to do pressure that the getting ready is also exhausting. And so, you know, the kind of energy work and the prep with the media trainer who's not teaching me how to say the thing, who's helping me find, you know, authenticity is extremely difficult. Yeah.
- [46:44]
B
And being authentic in press is very difficult. And each form has its own version of that. You know, I had to learn early on that like, like sometimes being open and authentic and conversing with print journalists at times doesn't always make the most sense because I gave them a bunch of wordy long quotes that they can't use and then I expended all of those Soul Points. And when it came time for the hour long podcast where you can do that, you're spent and you have nothing left. And I've had to learn something that like bringing in some pre made quotes for print journalism. It's okay. It actually helps them do their job better because they can be succinct. And I save my Soul Points for my sit down with Monica, you know, and it's really nice. So.
- [47:33]
A
But it's hard right about. Is Soul Points your thing or is that something.
- [47:37]
B
Soul Points is this thing that I came up with and, and made up with. It's the name of my non profit that shifts around and does lots of different things. And you know, I think what I'm hearing from you when you say I have to resist scheduling every hole, it really deeply resonates with me because I'm a voraciously interested person and I love a steep learning curve. So the idea of like, well, then I'm gonna write a book about it and I'll write a book and I'll become a novelist, I'm gonna write a book about it. Exactly. And I want to do that. And one thing that I have learned is that if I do all of those things because I have such strong willpower, because I have such strong force, and because now I am prevalent enough in the culture that someone is going to say yes to me and let me do it. If I do that, I'll just drown under the weight of all the work. So I have to be careful what I choose to make. And so what I do now, most of the time I cheat a lot, is I try to create a folder on my computer that is these are the things I'm excited about doing. So if I get a big idea, I allow myself the rush of working on it. So the Soul Points book. Okay, here's the outline. This is what it will look like. And then I finish that initial creative rush, which feels good. And then I take it and I stick it in the folder. Like, if you're still so incredibly excited about this after a month.
- [48:59]
A
Yeah.
- [49:00]
B
Then you can go get it. And 98% of those ideas die there. Because all I really needed was to go on that one fantastic, beautiful before sunrise date with them.
- [49:10]
A
Yes.
- [49:10]
B
And then I can put them away and that's where that's what they were for me. Sometimes I come back three years later and that's cool, too. But, you know, you and I were talking before we started. I have this wonderful day ahead of me where I'm here and I have about five hours in between my next thing I have to do tonight. And I could go home and rush and do the thing. And I'm like, no, I'm actually going to open myself up and see what happens today. I'll probably get lunch, probably go to the public library, do some writing, take a walk around a neighborhood. And that time in our lives when we used to just kind of walk out the door sometimes and see what would happen is. Is missing for me.
- [49:53]
A
Well, I think especially in la. So when I'm in London and I'm in New York.
- [49:59]
B
Absolutely.
- [49:59]
A
That happens a lot. You know, I'll be like, oh, look at this exhibit. Yeah, okay. I have. In fact, I did that last time I was in New York. I had gotten the time wrong for my next thing and I had an extra hour and I popped into the Whitney, you know, so it's just such a. And then I'm reminded of how full my tank gets, how many soul points I get. Yeah, right. Is that it? Sort of for like what it means to me to go see other people's creations?
- [50:28]
B
Absolutely.
- [50:28]
A
Be in the resonance of a museum.
- [50:30]
B
That'S just, you know, so important not only for artists but for everyone, is just, I think the, the intake, the quiet intake mode of interesting things that we wouldn't normally cross paths with is so critical, I think.
- [50:44]
A
And I want to hear you talk about it. There's this kind of amazing thing that you did with room 104. And hearing you talk about it made me just be like, I want to be you when I grow up.
- [50:58]
B
It was the greatest thing I ever stumbled into.
- [51:00]
A
Like my dream of being able to.
- [51:02]
B
Be like that in my life. It was. And, and, and I want to say again, it was not by design. I did. I was not the brilliant Vincent Price being like, yes, this is how it's going to work. You know, I really just thought, I know how to make TV cheaply, more cheaply than people make it. I Don't know if the show will be popular. HBO likes me right now after making Togetherness. I bet if I bring them a show that cost them a quarter of what they normally pay, I'll kind of be able to do what I want and hopefully keep it on the air if it's not a huge rating ratings juggernaut. That was as far as my idea went. And then I thought, oh, you know what, this will be cool. I always thought I might be a playwright. I can just make a bunch of 25 minute one act plays in a hotel room, like, and that'll be great, you know, and what it ended up becoming was so much more than that. In particular, I think, not only as a place to creatively make whatever we wanted and have it be protected, but, you know, it was a time, it was just like 2015 to like 2018 or 19 where we hadn't quite identified, you know, how lopsided the gender and racial gap was and, you know, before the camera and behind the camera representation. But like, you know, half of our directors were women or persons of color and some of the cast were movie stars in order to bring some attention to it. But some people were just like, this was their first job out of graduate school and they were just the best actor and we could cast them. And they didn't say, well, why aren't you casting Channing Tatum? You know, and it was so many people's first job directing television, which. And they were able to take that and parlay. So it was this weird little woodshed springboard for people into their careers. And my crew would always joke, they would say, like, all right, let's see what, you know, Mark is existentially working through this year. Because I would, I wrote, you know, two thirds of the scripts for that thing and I could mine these deep parts of my psyche that I was a little afraid of or interested in. And. And you also did this amazing thing.
- [53:08]
A
Too, right, where you. It was like everybody got to profit, participate in the show in a, in a meaningful way.
- [53:16]
B
Yeah, everybody. What we did was, is, you know, we were able to get enough money to give people their union rates and pay into their pens and do the thing we needed to do. But most people were still making, you know, the lower end of that. And so, you know, I mean, it was just, again, I, I don't want to sound like I had masterminded this thing. The way that we could make it cheaply is that, you know, HBO was just like, look, we can't pay these kinds of rates and still be hbo. But, like, if Duplass Brothers becomes the studio, we can just buy it from Duplass Brothers, the studio. And I was like, okay, I guess I'll just become a studio, you know? And so. So they would license the. For me, which meant that they had to relicense it four years later. And so when that profit participation came in, I was able to. And it was so incredible because this was during the pandemic, and so we were able to just cut these checks to. You know, a lot of people had worked on the show, the cast, the writers, the directors, and I mean, it was wonderful. And I'm still. I'm still trying to get back to that model. Our industry is so, so deeply unhealthy right now.
- [54:23]
A
Yeah.
- [54:24]
B
And I want to. For any of you who right now. Who are creators listening to this, I just want to validate how difficult it is right out there and just say, like, I'm having a hell of a time. Like, I'm really.
- [54:37]
A
You're having a hard time.
- [54:38]
B
I'm really trying to do what I can to, like, get independent television going. And sometimes I lose money doing it, and sometimes I make a little money and I break even and I take out shows that I'm like, I can't wait to blow everybody away with this. And everybody passes.
- [54:56]
A
Yeah. But speaking of the TV and stuff, you've got Morning show, season four, Morning show coming out.
- [55:02]
B
Morning season four comes out. Yep. Soon. That has been such a wonderful presence in my life. You know, I'm just gonna speak really candidly about that show, because I think it's important to demystify what is great and what is not so great about a lifestyle like this at times, you know, like, the first season of that show was, like, the creative dream come true. I was at the center of the show. Jen Aniston and Reese Witherspoon, like, all these incredible people. And they gave me this juicy role, and I got the Emmy nomination, and it was unbelievable. And they hired me because they had spent all their money on huge movie stars, and they're like, who else is decent who will work for very little? And I was like, me, me, me, please. And then, like, season two and season three came around, and we started adding to the cast, and my role got a little bit smaller, and everybody else's roles would get a little bit smaller, you know, And I was like, oh, it's because they don't like me. Are they, like, writing me down? Like, what's the issue? But I was able to sort of, like, Wrap my head around it and say like, wait a minute, hold on a second. They still, their, their version of what they pay me that's small is still 8 fortune for me because it's Apple show. And, and I'm still able to use that money to go ahead and fund all these little movies that I make with first time directors, like Language Lessons with Natalie Morales and all these movies. So it's still very much a deeply important part of my whole ecosystem, you know, and now we're on season four of a show. This is when everybody starts fighting, when everybody's sick of each other, okay? And, and on the morning show that has huge personality, so many cooks in the kitchen, no conflict.
- [56:43]
A
Wow. What do you think sauce is there?
- [56:46]
B
No one can really identify it, but if I'm making my bet and projecting, it's the, the leadership of Rhys and Jen, who went through a time, I think in the 90s when they were movie stars on sets, that, that my projection probably weren't super well led, maybe you know, as kind to women as they could have been. And they, when they got the boss's seat, they're like, we're gonna do it right? And they do it and you feel it. And so, I mean, I feel so deeply lucky to be a part of a show that's gone four seasons. I'm hopeful we're gonna get to do a fifth, you know, maybe close it out after that. And it's just, it's just so wonderful. And I want to be clear that, like, I remember the end of season one being like, we should stop.
- [57:38]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [57:39]
B
We should stop. We ended this very, very well. And as we all know, TV shows don't tend to get progressively better right, in seasons, you know, And I find that by the time you're out of season seven or season eight, you're just there for the month, really, is what it is. You know, people try to make excuses, but that's really why they're there, you know, And I think the morning show has done a very good job of reinventing itself a little bit each season and finding new audiences. You see it, it's gotten a little pulpier and a little soapier and it works for certain audiences. And they found their way around and they take care of an incredible cast and crew, creating jobs in la. I'm just so deeply grateful for that show.
- [58:21]
A
Do you find that with all the personal mental health stuff that you do, like, does that bleed into how you want to bring your character to Chip?
- [58:33]
B
Do you want, like, it bleeds into Everything that I do, okay. It bleeds into. It bleeds into the way I run a set. When I'm. When I'm producing a set, one of the first things I do is like to step up and just say, just like you did today. Like, I am so nervous.
- [58:51]
A
You didn't feel like you had to put me at ease?
- [58:53]
B
No, I didn't at all. No. No.
- [58:55]
A
Okay.
- [58:55]
B
That's nice. It's a shared thing. It's lovely, you know, and to express that that's something I've learned from my mental health issues is just to share it, because everyone is. Is feeling it. You know, I think that what I've also tried to bring. I bring it as a writer. There's just a certain vulnerability to the characters that I write now. Now that is front and center with me. That is almost subconsciously seeps in. You know, I think that when you look at Chip on the page in the morning show, he's actually much harder and he's much colder, and he's evolved over time due to the nature of my relationship with Chip as a character and what he's been imbued with, you know, and that is vulnerability, 100%.
- [59:43]
A
Is there anything you. You're allowed to say about his emotional arc in this season or no?
- [59:50]
B
Because Apple will come through these microphones and strike me down. They have that power now. If I. If I say anything, I will say that I get to spend some time with a cast member that I don't get to spend as much time with historically, which is really cool, professionally and personally. And the plot line that I have this year is, like, really intricate and fascinating and different than what I've done in previous seasons. So I was very honored to be able to do something new.
- [60:16]
A
Do you ever learn something about yourself through the experience of how a character has been written for you?
- [60:25]
B
Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. I do. Usually there's this symbiotic nature by the time you get to season two or season three of this is what Mark does well as Chips. And we're going to write more to the. To the Chip strengths, as we know. Mark Duplass operationalizes him. Right. You know, and so you will find these little conscious or subconscious through lines to what you inherently do well. And as you express them, you will almost be sort of acting out how the writer sees you or sees certain things in you. And sometimes that's just a projection, but I'll always feel a little something, you know, And I remember distinctly feeling in season one with Chip as he grapples with Feeling like he didn't do anything wrong. He's the only good guy and moral center. Oh, shit.
- [61:21]
A
Yeah.
- [61:22]
B
Maybe my silence was complicity, you know, And I personally always like to believe that I'm on the right side of things. And I remember through playing Chip, being willing to look more at myself and my own complicity and how some of my own relationships work, Relationships, personal relationships, had gone wrong. Where my previous narrative was just like, well, I held the high ground and I did it all right. And then being like, well, hold on, let's take a little bit of a look there, you know, and what might you have done to be complicit? That's been my big learning thing from Chip.
- [61:56]
A
I, I, I, I just, I, I so admire, I so admire you, so. I really do.
- [62:03]
B
Thank you. I admire you too.
- [62:04]
A
Thanks. We round out the show asking people if there's anything that they are working on reclaiming.
- [62:13]
B
Yes, I am working on something, but it's very, very early stages. I don't talk about this a ton, but it is something that's known, is that before I became a filmmaker, I was a musician. And it was my deep passion and I was a good musician.
- [62:32]
A
What, like, what instrument or.
- [62:34]
B
I was a singer songwriter for a while, like an Indigo boy, you know, Travel around in my van and sell CDs out of the back of my van and live in my van. Did that in my early 20s. And then I was in an indie rock band. I went, went to jazz school and studied classical composition. And I can, I could do. I worked really, really hard to develop myself to the best of my abilities. And I was really good, but I was not great. And I knew it and it was killing me. Not dissimilar. From the Salieri complex to Mozart. I could see everybody around me and I could see people who were working less hard than me who were spilling brilliance onto their little home recorded machines. And it was very, very hard. And I had to reckon with that and reckon with. I didn't really like the music lifestyle, being out touring, like I'm a homebody. And I had to try to figure out, am I gonna like, start over in a whole new artistic thing. And I decided to. I was always a film editor and I was making little bad short films, but I wasn't really a filmmaker. But when, when I moved over into filmmaking, I realized everything I've learned here in this creative path is actually carrying over quite well.
- [63:54]
A
Right?
- [63:54]
B
Creative process, storytelling, all these, all these things. So it was a lateral move. But what I do need to Reclaim is this ghost of a musician who lives inside of me. And everybody who knows me well will know that, like a good four to five times a year, a song will come on or something, and I will start sobbing uncontrollably. That is connecting to someone in me that I left behind. And it was smart because it was destroying me. But I need to figure out how to live with him and make him a part of my life in a way that doesn't overtake me. And I don't even know what that looks like. And I've tried different versions of that. Like, oh, just play music in my office. Sometimes I write songs and record them, but it's not quite that. So I have a journey to reconcile that person. And I don't know what it's going to be.
- [64:49]
A
It's interesting. It's sort of. I mean, feels like that. I know you're saying you tried this in your office already with just playing to play. And I have found that with art, like, I've just always had this. This drive to want to paint, and I don't, but I do this whole marker thing.
- [65:11]
B
But does it work for you? Does it fulfill it?
- [65:14]
A
It does. You know, it doesn't necessarily do the painting thing because I think there's something about the, you know, like the thickness of the paint and the dimensionality and the color. But I bought these really expensive markers, and they do something for me on fancy paper. Like, I do it either art therapy or just sort of, okay, I'm gonna try and draw this thing. And it's very much for me about having to accept it's not perfect. And I wonder if there's anything there for you of, like, can you be the musician out in the world who maybe isn't as great and that's still good enough? Like, that's a hard thing to do, especially when you've excelled so much in so many places.
- [65:57]
B
But that's so to love the B minus, right?
- [66:01]
A
Yeah. I mean, I. That's how I felt launching this podcast. Like, I was. So if. If it wasn't going to be the best I felt right. You know, and so. And it's just sort of okay. Or there's, you know, I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual. It's like. Or there's a bigger purpose, you know, or it's going to be doing something different than what me, the little general, has decided.
- [66:24]
B
Well, and here's what I will say, as someone who's made lots of episodes of a television show, like room 104, equating that to you making lots of episodes of this podcast. There will be ones that you are deeply proud of, that you think are excellent, that may not connect with people as much as you hope. And there will be ones that you think are like, man, we didn't quite get there, that blow people away and that are so meaningful. So there's also how the art comes across, which has basically led me to my theory of make and make a lot. It's not often the same value system that you apply to it that actually relates to the merit for other people listening to it.
- [66:57]
A
Yeah.
- [66:57]
B
Who knows?
- [66:58]
A
This has been so wonderful. Thank you so much, Mark.
- [67:02]
B
Thank you, Monica. Lovely.
- [67:04]
A
Thank you. Really, really special. Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky Production Services by WTF Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.