Michael Urie

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky

Episode: Michael Urie
Date: January 13, 2026
Host: Monica Lewinsky
Guest: Michael Urie

Episode Overview

In this lively and heartfelt episode, Monica Lewinsky sits down with actor Michael Urie for an expansive conversation about career turning points, authenticity, reclaiming identity, queer visibility, and the nuanced experiences of being seen (and unseen) in public and private life. The discussion meanders joyfully from childhood memories and Juilliard days to industry reflections, the evolution of LGBTQ+ roles, and the ongoing journey of self-reclamation in an unpredictable profession.

---

Key Topics & Insights

Childhood, Family, and Early Creative Sparks

• Plano, Texas Upbringing
  • Michael shares growing up in Plano, with a seven-years-older athletic sister who helped pave the way for him as both a non-athlete and someone coming out as queer in Texas.
    • “My sister was so into sports... She’s also queer, so she sort of paved the way for me.” (03:33)
  • Supportive parents, even if sports love left them unsure:
    • “Probably harder than any of that was that I didn’t like sports because they weren’t sure what to do with me.” (03:29)
• Discovering Theater
  • Initially drawn to directing after being inspired by Tim Burton movies (Batman, Beetlejuice).
  • After shyly joining school theater (due to lack of boys for “Fiddler on the Roof”), Michael gets bitten by the theater bug.
    • “I had to be in the play. We didn’t have enough boys… and then I got a laugh—that was the thing that really made me think, OK, I’m gonna leave band, and I’m gonna do this.” (07:03)

Finding Comedy & The Power of Laughter

• Speech & Debate Triumph
  • At a poetry reading meant to be somber, Michael’s delivery unintentionally makes the audience laugh—but he leans in, wins the state competition, and realizes comedy could be his path.
    • “That’s when I was, like, OK, I’m not gonna be a teacher anymore… I’m gonna go up on stages and get laughs.” (07:47, 08:20)

Academic Challenges and Defining Decisions

• Navigating College Admissions
  • Fails the SAT, excels at the ACT, and experiences rejection and acceptance from colleges within weeks—leading to a key life lesson on decision-making and creative problem-solving.
    • “It’s a pickle until it isn’t… then suddenly it becomes clear.” (12:23)
  • Monica and Michael reflect on whether having clarity and conviction in decisions is a gift.
    • Monica: “That’s a real gift… to make a decision and commit to it.” (12:50)

Juilliard and the Actor’s Journey

• Entry and Mythology
  • Encouraged by a community college teacher, Michael auditions and visits Juilliard on a drama field trip. He reflects on the lore and the allure of the school.
    • “It seemed like, well, if you get into Juilliard, you’re set forever. And that isn’t true.” (19:46)
  • Monica compares the myths around Ivy League/Ivy acting schools and how the realities are more complicated in subjective fields like show business. (20:22)
• Training, Confidence, and Stigma
  • Juilliard brought confidence but also the stigma of being perceived as “too Juilliard.”
    • “A lot of people talk about how Juilliard actors need a few years in the real world before they lost ‘that thing’... I remember auditioning for somebody, and them saying, ‘You wear it well.’” (30:17, 30:45)

Hollywood, Representation, and “Ugly Betty”

• The Changing Landscape of Fame

  • Fewer movie stars today, audiences are fragmented; shows streaming on platforms like Apple TV can be invisible to huge swathes of the public.
    • “Millions and millions of people can be into something and yet I might have no idea what that is.” (23:43)
  • The days when a broad awareness of a single show connected the culture are largely gone. (24:38)

• Origin of Marc St. James

  • Michael was told his part on Ugly Betty would just be a temporary, one-off assistant to Vanessa Williams’ character.
    • “I knew I had nothing to lose... I just studied her on set without her knowing… moved like her, talked like her…” (27:10)
    • Quote: “She came over to me and she’s like, ‘Hey, I hear you’re doing me behind me.’ And I was like, ‘Yeah, I’m sorry, I thought it would be funny.’ And she’s like, ‘It is. What else can I do that you can do?’” (28:45 — Michael Urie recounting Vanessa Williams’ response)

• Reclaiming Stereotypes and Pigeonholing

  • Monica and Michael discuss evolving attitudes around LGBTQ+ representation, stereotypes, and actor “types.”
    • Michael: “I was told that a few times—‘all right, this is the last [gay character].’ Which would have been totally impossible… if I had stopped playing gay… there’s so many kinds of queer people.” (57:03–61:09)
    • “Queer people aren’t a monolith—I think that’s like any group, you know.” – Monica Lewinsky (61:09)

Navigating Fame, Visibility, and Privacy

• Being Recognizable and “Going Backstage”

  • Monica shares anxieties over industry etiquette—going backstage after shows, being recognized, or misunderstood.
  • Michael reassures: “As a Broadway actor, I absolve you of feeling that way… if you didn’t come back, it’s not an insult. People just want to live their lives.” (43:09)

• Acceptance of Public Life

  • Monica reflects on finally accepting public life after years of trying to shrink from visibility.
    • “There came a point where there was no other option... every time in the last almost 30 years that I’ve gotten small and thought, ‘Okay, I’m gonna have this small life’—it doesn’t work out. So here I am.” (54:44)

The Power and Responsibility of the Arts

• Evolving Media and Influence
  • Michael shares how the arts can—and should—prepare society for what’s possible, not just reflect or lag behind.
    • “There is so much trauma in the queer community… but also, we can show the world the way it can be.” (64:41)
  • Single All the Way: Michael cites his Netflix holiday romcom as a homophobia-free feel-good movie:
    • “I play this guy who’s unlucky in love and ends up falling for his best friend… it’s a homophobia-free film.” (64:03)
  • On representation in theater: “It’s not like we’re trying to recruit more queer people for the theater. There’s plenty of us. But… it’s been dominated by white men. And so another part of doing the [Pride Plays] festival is to find and nurture these other voices.” (66:08)

Reclaiming Energy, Self & The Next Chapter

• What Michael is Reclaiming
  • After a whirlwind stretch of TV and theater roles, Michael voices his intention to reclaim rest, time, and a sense of self apart from roles/work.
    • “I really want to reclaim, like, and find out what I’m like when I’m not working. And that’s a luxury… I think that I need to be kinder to my body and let it rest and figure out who I am again.” (69:22)
    • “I’m gonna reclaim myself, I think. Reclaim Michael. Not Michael as Richard II… Not Mikey either. Although maybe I’ll be Mikey. Maybe I’ll stand on my stool and be Mikey.” (70:55)

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On following bold impulses:
  • “I knew I had nothing to lose… . I was doing [Vanessa Williams] behind her and someone told her… she’s like, ‘It is. What else can I do that you can do?’” (28:45 — Michael Urie)
• On reclaiming identity as an out actor:
  • “Anytime I’d hear someone say [stop playing gay characters], I’d think, oh, you don’t get it… There are so many different ways that I can go within my sexual orientation that are not that guy that I played first.” (61:09)
• On LGBTQ+ representation in media:
  • “There is so much trauma in the queer community… but also, we can show the world the way it can be.” (64:41)
• On cyclical life decisions:
  • Monica: “Every time… I’ve gotten small… it doesn’t work out. So here I am.” (54:44)
• On the relief and responsibility of true visibility:
  • Monica: “I feel like… I’m just not supposed to have a small life. And that’s a very weird thing when you didn’t set out to have a big life like that.” (54:44–55:07)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:33 — Michael on growing up with a queer sister and family support
• 07:03–08:20 — “Bitten by the bug,” winning laughs, path to acting
• 12:23–13:14 — Making big decisions: “It’s a pickle until it isn’t”
• 19:45–20:07 — Juilliard’s allure; myth vs reality
• 27:10–28:51 — Michael’s Marc St. James origin story (& Vanessa Williams anecdote)
• 54:44–55:07 — Monica on accepting big life and public figurehood
• 57:01–61:09 — Michael on being told not to “play gay”; rejecting creative pigeonholes
• 64:02–64:41 — “Single All the Way” as a homophobia-free romcom
• 69:22–70:55 — What Michael is working on reclaiming: time, rest, self

---

Tone & Final Thoughts

Warm, candid, humorous, and self-reflective, this conversation weaves together anecdotes, industry insight, and personal philosophy around living authentically, the challenges and triumphs of queer identity in performing arts, and the courage required to reclaim one’s narrative—on stage, on screen, and in life. Both Monica and Michael affirm the value of self-compassion, embracing possibility, and honoring the winding paths that lead to self-acceptance.

---

“I’m gonna reclaim myself, I think. Reclaim Michael. Not Michael as Richard II… Not Mikey either. Although maybe I’ll be Mikey. Maybe I’ll stand on my stool and be Mikey.” – Michael Urie (70:55)

---

Transcript

[A]

Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

And so I just studied her on set without her knowing. I just was like, I'm gonna move like her, I'm gonna walk like her, I'm gonna talk like her, I'm going to sit like her. And so I was doing that behind her and someone was like, hey, Vee, you know what that queen's doing behind you? He's making fun of you. He's mocking you. He's imitating you. She's like, he is. And she came over to me and she's like, hey, I hear you're doing me behind me. And I was like, yeah, I'm sorry. I thought it would be funny. And she's like, it is. What else can I do that you can do?

[A]

Michael, I'm so happy to welcome you to Reclaiming.

[B]

Thank you so much. I'm very happy to be here.

[A]

You're our first Michael on the show.

[B]

What?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

I know. And my brother's name is Michael. And so I was like, okay, I might want to call you Mikey. Does anybody call you Mikey?

[B]

No. They did call me Mikey when I was a little kid. Do you call your brother Mikey?

[A]

Uh huh. Yeah. So I mean, he goes by Mike and then Michael when he's in trouble.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But Mikey was his, like, as a kid he was Mikey and then he was Mikey Linky. Cause he couldn't say Lewinsky. So he was like, I'm Mikey. He was so cute. But I was like, have you ever been a Mikey?

[B]

I was a Mikey when I was very little. My dad makes stools for all the kids in the family. You know, like to brush your teeth with this. So I have a stool that says Mikey. Remember, Mikey likes it.

[A]

I do remember Mikey likes it. Life cereal, Right?

[B]

Mikey likes cereal.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And so people always said that to me, and I ate anything, I would eat anything.

[A]

Oh, really? Okay.

[B]

So I still will eat kind of anything and that's right.

[A]

You had the last third of my banana.

[B]

Yes, I just ate your banana.

[A]

It's a good thing we didn't say that in reverse. But, you know. So sorry. Thank you for indulging me.

[B]

But I. You can call me Mikey.

[A]

Okay, thanks. Okay. You were raised in Plano, Texas?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. And kind of. You had theater in school. What was like your child? What was your childhood kind of environment?

[B]

So I have an older sister who's seven years older than me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And she was an athlete, an amazing athlete. And my dad loved sports, and I did not. And so when I started to come of age as a child and it was very clear that I was not going to be in sports, and my sister was so into sports and so many. I mean, I'm grateful for my older sister for so many reasons. She's also queer, so she sort of paved the way for me. She went through stuff that I didn't have to go through in Texas in our family. But our family is terrific. I mean, we were very lucky to have parents that love their kids for who they are and learned how to love us, even though we were different from them. But probably harder than any of that was that I didn't like sports because they weren't sure what to do with me.

[A]

Okay, was your mom also into sports or was she like, yes, I get a kid who's not into sports.

[B]

Well, once I got into theater, my mom was really excited.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because I don't think they thought that that was even. I mean, I think I thought, you know, we would watch TV and go to the movies. We loved that. But that didn't seem at all a real, like, a possible job. That didn't seem like a possible career at all. It just seems so other. So far away. So, you know, like, how could be an actor on television? What? That just seemed crazy. But then when I started doing plays in school, that was like, oh, actually, this is. This is really lovely and fun. But I was. And I was pretty shy, so I was a little nervous about doing theater. I was shy, and I didn't think I wanted to be an actor. I thought I wanted to be a director because I had seen, you know, I really like. It was Tim Burton movies, actually, that I was really into superheroes, So I love Batman. And then Beetlejuice was this, like, totally other thing. And he made both of those movies, and Michael Keaton is in both of those movies. And I was like, I want to be a director. I want to be able to do that. That's what I want to do. And I would like to act out scenes. We moved when I was, like, 6, and I really went into my shell. We moved from Houston to Dallas, the Houston areas of the Dallas area. And I really went into my shell. And so I think that I would play alone with toys and I would like. But I would do way more than just play with toys. I would, like, envision stories and movies and romances and all These different things. So when I was finally at a place where I felt comfortable in theater, and I was like, I'm gonna direct. I'm gonna ask my teacher if she'll let me be her assistant. And I'm gonna assistant direct Fiddler on the Roof. But we didn't have enough boys to do Fiddler on the Roof, so she made me be on stage.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I did enjoy that. I did enjoy getting up on stage and singing and dancing and. And so I had a little part. And then after that, I started really going through.

[A]

Sort of bitten by the bug, as they say.

[B]

Yeah, totally. But even still, at that point, I thought, there's no way I'm gonna be good at this. And my teachers were my heroes. And so I thought, I'm gonna be a teacher. I'm gonna be a drama teacher. There's no chance that I'm gonna be able to be an actor, professional actor. And at that point, I loved theater so much that I was perfectly happy being a high school drama teacher. And I would put on plays, and I could do plays locally if they cast me, but the. That I could be a real actor, professional actor.

[A]

So it's so interesting. We were saying before, but. So Adam Scott was on the show, and he told a story about how he was at camp as a kid and the group had to do, I don't know, something like, something. And someone had to be the representative of the group. And he's like, oh, well, I'm gonna be an actor when I'm older, so I'll do it. And he knew. He knew. But then he said he got up there and he kind of froze. So. But it's just interesting, this idea of sort of, you know, something that feels so in you already versus something you become drawn to and sort of becomes part of you in a slower way.

[B]

Yeah. You know, and a little trial by fire, you know, like, get up. You gotta be in the play. We don't have enough boys.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You gotta be in there. Oh, okay. And then the next play, they give me a bigger part, and then I'm really big part. And then it was. I got a big laugh. That was the thing that really made me think, okay, this is. I'm gonna leave band, and I'm gonna do this. Cause I had to choose. And then it was another. It was one play where I got a big laugh, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this. And then I was also doing speech and debate.

[A]

Oh, my.

[B]

And I was doing a poetry reading at this competition of A poem that I was quite certain was serious, tragic even. And I was reading it as dramatically as I possibly could. And they kept laughing.

[A]

Shit.

[B]

Not like he's bad, but like amusing me. There was like something about the way I spoke that was amusing this audience that's so interesting. And then I was like, wait a minute. Is that what they think is. Is this inflection? What they think is funny? Is this pause. And I started to lean into it and just got more. And it just like became riotous. They thought it was the funn they'd ever heard. And I won. I ended up winning the state competition. And that's when I was like, okay, I'm not gonna be a teacher anymore. Yeah, I'm not gonna be a teacher.

[A]

You saw your name in lights at that point.

[B]

I was like, I'm gonna go get laughs. I'm gonna go up on stages and get laughs.

[A]

That's amazing. It's really. That's incredible. So then. And you studied acting in college, right?

[B]

Yeah. And so at that point, because the time at which I figured that out, it was like this whole kind of wonderful coincidence that I got that big laugh in that speech tournament right around the same time that I bombed the sat.

[A]

Oh, bomb.

[B]

The sat. And I had bad grades. Cause I was always building sets and learning choreography.

[A]

Yeah. Theater kids that have you just. I was a theater geek. So you just, you. Your whole world becomes the people in theater. The experience of theater, the camaraderie that's there is really magical when you're that young.

[B]

Oh, it was. Yeah. I mean, I think every human should do a play at some point in their life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it just makes. It's community. It's a community building exercise. And like sports only no one has to lose, you know, like everyone lose.

[A]

Their breath, you know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But the timing was insane. I bombed the sat. The local community college had offered me a scholarship and I got this huge laugh. And I was like, I think that I should not go to. And I had gotten rejected to all the schools I'd applied to.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because of well done. Because of my scores. And there were all these schools in Texas that I was going to go become a drama teacher. I was going to go study drama and then come back and teach maybe in my old high school even. And they all rejected me. I had this offer from the community college that had a great theater program. And I got that big laugh and I thought, okay, if I go to a community college, then maybe I could become an actor. Like maybe that go to an acting school or, I don't know, go to LA and be. I don't know. And then, like a week later, my ACT scores came back. Remember the act?

[A]

I didn't take the act, but I.

[B]

Remember it's like the shapes and colors version of the sat.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I did great.

[A]

Oh, how interesting.

[B]

I did great on that one. And then I got acceptance letters from all those schools that had previously rejected me.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yes. Isn't that wild? But my mind had changed.

[A]

That's really interesting. It's like, must have happened in Mercury, retrograde the rejections, right?

[B]

Yeah, but.

[A]

Yeah, but I've never heard of that. I've never heard of a school, like, changing.

[B]

I know, right?

[A]

That's so interesting. What did it. Wait. Did you ever find out what it said about the way you think in your mind that you would do so well on one and bomb the other?

[B]

Oh, well, I think one is for creative, creative people and the other is for intellectual.

[A]

So you would like creative genius. That's so interesting that we never hear people talking about, oh, I did really well on the act. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, except this is.

[B]

That's so funny. You're right.

[A]

52. This is the first time I've ever.

[B]

Heard somebody say, that's hilarious.

[A]

I did so that's.

[B]

I've never heard anybody say it either. Yeah, it's so funny. I've told this story a million times. That's so interesting. No, I've never heard anybody else ever even cite their ACT scores. But it was enough for me to get into all those schools.

[A]

That's really.

[B]

And it was a really good score. I don't remember what it was, but it was like, you're like, I'm a creative genius. I did really well on it. And I bombed the. I mean, like a 9:40 or something. Like something really bad on the SAT, but just bad. And. Yeah, but I think what it says to me, what it says about my thinking process, is that because this has happened to me many, many times over the years when I've had a big decision to make, it's a pickle until it isn't.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And wait.

[A]

Say more on that.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

Meaning I don't know what decision to make. I don't know which way to go. And then suddenly it becomes clear, and I never look back, and I'm totally clear about it. And that was probably the first one I can think of where it was like, do I or don't I? Do I or don't I? And then when I was like, oh, no, I definitely, I'm definitely gonna do this. And I never looked back.

[A]

Well, that's actually a real gift. You know, as somebody who sort of can vacillate, like, can see all the options and thinks through everything and you know, really can take time to try to choose and then go back on myself, you know, did I do the right thing or not? So that's a real interesting. That's a real gift, I think, to make a decision and commit to it.

[B]

And you know, like in the gig economy, which is kind of what actors are, we have lots of jobs. It's not like this is my job forever. It's like, you know, it's like many, many, many, many jobs.

[A]

Do you mean many acting jobs or multi hyphenated?

[B]

Many acting jobs?

[A]

Okay, yeah.

[B]

You know, like, like I'm playing Richard II tonight and I came here from audiobook recording like, like that. Like, like we have lots of jobs, we get as many. And, and you know, I mean, I'm, I'm a very lucky actor that I'm, I've got a TV job. But like, usually we're like, I'll take all the jobs, right? As many jobs as I can get. And because we don't know when that's going to dry up. And sometimes it's like, that's an obvious job. I take a plus job. Absolutely. But then sometimes it's like, well, that doesn't really pay as much, but it's a longer, you know, it's gonna take me out of this, but I think it could really be important. And then eventually it just goes zoop and it becomes clear.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah, I think that's amazing.

[B]

But it's a. I think it might also have something to do with like this creative.

[A]

Right, Your act geniusness.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that like I have to like.

[A]

Well, it's interesting because this is all falling into place a bit more now too. In thinking about that you had applied to Juilliard then, right? Eventually, yes. And so I was curious. Cause I was thinking about how I was staying in a vacation home and I happened to be home alone when I had applied to graduate school. And so example of how opposite I am from you, my therapist at the time, I was like, well, I don't know if I wanna go to graduate school. Should I go to graduate school or should I not go to graduate school? And tons and tons of debate. And she was like, monica, just why don't you apply? And then when you get in, then we'll make a decision. And one of your decisions could be you decide not to go to graduate school, but at least create the options. And, like, that's something I have to always remember. Cause I start thinking so far ahead before I even have options to look at. And I may talk myself out of doing something without even having the options. But anyway, I applied to graduate school, and I remember that this was, like, now a point when I was with college, you would get the acceptance letter in the mail, and it was either that, okay, is it a small envelope or a big envelope?

[B]

Right.

[A]

That was how it was all determined. And with lse, it was an email. And I remembered getting the email. And just especially because this is now 2005, and so I'm 7 years post 98 and scandal and all that. And this felt like one of the more momentous wins in my life of, like, oh, something worked out for me. This is amazing. And just that sort of moment. And I was by myself before I called, you know, my family of just a feeling, a moment of pride and excitement. So what was getting into Juilliard like, okay, yeah, well.

[B]

But when you got the email, what did you think in terms of whether or not you wanted to go or not go?

[A]

Oh, I was. Yeah, I'm definitely going.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I.

[B]

You think that was the moment when you said, congratulations? I was like, okay, I'm going.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, it was. Well, actually, the truth is that I. It's kind of sad. Just from the way my life was, I thought maybe it was a joke. So I was, like, excited. And then after a few minutes, I had a moment where I went, what if somebody's playing a prank on me? And what if this isn't real?

[B]

I'm so sorry that that's.

[A]

Yeah, it was where your brain went. Yeah. So I think that it was trying to brace myself. I think at that point, I had gotten to a place where I was just having to learn to brace myself for so many different unimaginable possibilities. So then once I found out that I actually. It was real and I had actually been accepted. So in between being accepted and my imposter syndrome kicking in, I decided to go. And I was very excited. So it was a real, you know, felt like a new beginning for me in some ways. But.

[B]

Yeah, well.

[A]

Yeah, your Juilliard story better be as dramatic, buddy. Mikey.

[B]

It was. I auditioned. So I went to this community college with a scholarship, thanks to, you know, the amazing people at that school and the people that I met in that one year. I went to it for one year, remain some of my very closest friends.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

And it was the teacher at that school that said, you should audition for Juilliard. There was a whole very cool field studies class in the summertime where they would go to New York.

[A]

Wait, does field studies mean, like, you, like, real life experience or go out into the world? I don't know. What fields?

[B]

Well, I guess. No, I guess even as I said it, I was like, is that even what I mean? I think it was called field studies, and it was really just a trip to New York.

[A]

A field trip.

[B]

A big deal for a big field trip.

[A]

Right. Okay.

[B]

And four drama majors, you know, at this community college. And we saw 13 shows in 10 days.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

And we went on a tour of NYU and Juilliard. And this was the summer after I graduated high school, so I'm, like, about to be at this school. I didn't even know these people yet. I knew, like, a couple that were also from my high school that were going. And this teacher, who I did not know really, he'd seen me audition, but he did not, you know, we did not know each other. At the end of the Juilliard tour, he took me aside and he was. I'm just realizing, like, all the other people on that trip.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Sorry.

[B]

Might if they hear this story. Sorry. That he didn't.

[A]

Unless he said it to everyone.

[B]

He said it to everyone. You never know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He was a drama teacher. He did like drama.

[A]

But that's okay.

[B]

But he definitely took me aside and he said, are you gonna audition for this place? And I was like, I'm thinking about it. Yeah, I'm thinking about it. Cause it was an amazing tour. Of course, both of them were. The NYU tour was really cool, too. But Juilliard was like.

[A]

Juilliard's Juilliard.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it just sort of seemed like. And now that I've gone and I've been out for 20 years, I know that it isn't this, but it. Because I've seen so many people go through. And I just seemed like, well, if you get into Juilliard, you're set forever. And that isn't true. It's still a very challenging business, even.

[A]

If you has that. Okay. Do you think it was there a point in time where if you went to Juilliard, you were set? Or you just think that's part of the lure, not lore.

[B]

It's the lure and the lore, right?

[A]

The allure and the Lord.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's both.

[A]

Well, because I Feel like with some of the Ivy League schools, right. There was that whole notion of, oh, if you go to an Ivy League school, you're set for life. And now it's the narrative of how many people who graduated from an Ivy League school who can't find a job. Right, right.

[B]

So I don't think it was ever that way for Juilliard because of how subjective the business is, but the show business is. But I know at the beginning of Juilliard, you know, the very first class of Juilliard, Kevin Kline, Patti LuPone, William Hurt, like, oh, fuck, big time. Yeah, that class, they were group one. We don't have. We're not class of 2003. We're group. I'm group 32. Even though I graduated, it's so that people don't know how old we are. But it's silly. Obviously, you can figure it out, but that's what it was.

[A]

I'm already like, juilliard's not for me. I don't understand that.

[B]

You know, so they call it group. John Houseman, who started the drama division. Juilliard's very old, but the drama division started with Patti LuPone, Kevin Clark and all these other.

[A]

Oh, okay, now I. Now I understand. Group one. Got it.

[B]

And they were called group one. And when the school. When they'd been through their four years of training, John Houseman was like, well, where am I going to send these actors who've just learned how to do the classics? And so he started a theater company for them called the Acting Company, okay. And they would do plays, classical plays, Shakespeare and Moyer and Chekhov in rep and on tour. So there actually, at the beginning of Juilliard, there was a job for you.

[A]

There was a pipeline to.

[B]

That's not forever. And over the years, the acting company, which is still a thing, became its own thing separate from Juilliard and, you know, people. And then because of the reputation of Juilliard, people were going because they wanted to be Kevin Kline or they wanted to be Patti LuPone. And then sometimes really, really brilliant people would go like Robin Williams. And the training was just sort of like, you know, like beneath. Not. And I don't mean beneath his talents, but like, you know, like someone like that.

[A]

Do you think in today's world, where we have this bleeding of sort of trained talent and influencers who have captured something, like, is it that the influencer is an untrained person who has the thing? Or is it like, we now don't even. This other thing is not even Needed. It feels like there's so few movie stars. There's so few.

[B]

No, it's true. Well, I think that there's less movie stars, I think is also an economic thing, like opening a movie. They used to be about opening a movie. Like you need Harrison Ford to open your movie or you need Tom Cruise to open your movie. And movies just work differently now because of streaming and because people watch things on their phones. The other weird thing about where we are now is that, like, millions and millions of people can be into something and yet I might have no idea what that is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It might not be on my radar in any way. And I don't think that was the case.

[A]

No, I mean, before, when I was growing up and might have been when you were growing up too, just talking about this with someone about the weekend would come. Pretty much, you either had a birthday party or you looked in the newspaper to see what movies were playing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that was the only way you knew what was playing where.

[B]

Yeah. And then there was Moviefone. But before Moviefone.

[A]

Before Moviefone. Hello, and thank you for calling Moviefone. You know, totally. But before Moviefone, that was it. And this is, you know, before VHS rental.

[B]

Yeah. You know, so before Blockbuster. So you didn't.

[A]

Right. So, I mean, there wasn't that. There wasn't that ability to have a collective conversation or the knowledge to all be the information to all be out there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it is. And so I think because of that, we all sort of knew the same things. Right. Because that's what I was trying to get at.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

The same movies were pretty much playing at the same time. Or the same tv.

[B]

Or the same TV shows. There were only a few, you know, there were only a few networks.

[A]

Right. Yep.

[B]

So, I mean, even, like, my first big job, which was Ugly Betty, that was before streaming and there were only a few big cable shows. I mean, HBO was doing stuff. And while we were doing Ugly Betty, AMC started doing stuff. Mad Men came out. Okay, so, like. So, like, there was hbo, the Sopranos, Six Feet Under. But when I mentioned, like, if somebody's like, how do I know you? If they're of a certain age, I could mention shrinking. And they will have no idea what I'm talking about at all. They will never have heard of it. I'll say it's with Harrison Ford. Harrison Ford's in a TV show. They'll know him. But they won't have any idea what this show is because they don't have Apple.

[A]

Right. Right.

[B]

They don't subscribe to Apple, and they don't live in a city where they have. In la, there's billboards. But if they're of a certain age, they remember when Ugly Betty came on tv. They might not have seen it, but they remember it coming on back then. Even then. That's almost 20 years now. Even then, a TV show could reach everyone, even if they don't watch it or don't like it. It could still be something that people are aware of.

[A]

Right? A cultural touch point in that sense. That's interesting. There was, I think I read something about how. So correct me if I get this wrong, but how you. That you're. So Mark St. James was, like, definitively not gonna be a series regular.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And then how soon, like this whole moment of you imitating Vanessa Williams behind her back on camera, how soon, early in this process did that happen, and was that spontaneous for you, or did that come out of, like, the same kind of moment from when you were on stage before community college? And you're like, oh, my God, they're laughing. Like, does that connective tissue. Does it feel like connective tissue at all for you?

[B]

Well, it definitely was, like, an impulse following. So I had this idea that my character, who was Vanessa Williams assistant on the show, the idea was that she was gonna be such a terrible boss or such a difficult boss that every week she'd have a new assistant because nobody wanted to work for her. And so I knew that going in. That was what they told me. This is just. And it was a pilot, so I didn't know if the show was even gonna get picked up, you know, might not have even become a television show. And so I knew I had nothing to lose, right? And I had this idea, this kind of big idea that he wanted to be her, and he was obsessed with her and like a sycophant. And so they always staged me behind her. You know, they always blocked me to be right behind her or trailing her or whatever. And so I just studied her on set without her knowing. I just was like, I'm gonna move like her. I'm gonna walk like her. I'm gonna talk like her, I'm gonna sit like her. And so I was doing that behind her, and someone told her. Someone was like, hey, Vee, you know what that queen's doing behind you? He's making fun of you. He's mocking you. He's imitating you. She's like, he is. And she came over to me and she's like, hey, I hear you're. Doing me behind me. And I was like, yeah, I'm sorry. I thought it would be funny. And she's like, it is. What else can I do that you can do?

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And she's. So now I'm pitching her ideas.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Which is a very generous actor. She is a. I mean, she is one of the, if not the most important person in all of show business for me.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Because she allowed me to, you know, go for it and do some big swings and because she vouched for me. Everyone vouched for me. And I made her better. She made me better. We made. You know, and we became this, like, little duo. And by the end of the pilot shoot, they called me in an extra day to be in the photo, the cast photo. So that was when I was like, I might be back. I mean, I didn't have a deal. You know, when you do a pilot, you sign your life away. I didn't have that. And I. You know, I didn't know if the show was gonna get picked up, of course, but. But, yeah, I think it was like there was something about not having anything.

[A]

To lose that's interesting. Do you think having gone to Juilliard gave you a confidence, in a way, in yourself and in your instincts, your artistic instincts?

[B]

It definitely did.

[A]

And your high ACT scores?

[B]

Yeah, I'm still writing that. I definitely, like. I mean, being from Juilliard definitely gives you a lot of confidence, but there's also a bit of a stigma.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

If you've gone to Juilliard. Because a lot. I don't know if it's true anymore. It's been so long, but back then, I remember lot of people talking about how Juilliard actors needed a few years in the real world before they lost that thing.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

It was always, like, kind of a distasteful, that thing. I remember auditioning for somebody and them saying, when did you graduate from Juilliard? And I was like, two years ago. And they said, you wear it well.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

I was like, I think that's a compliment. It's a backhanded compliment. You're saying most Juilliard actors are annoying. It happened a few times, actually. Or I'd be in a company and hear somebody trashing Juilliard actors, and I'd be like, I went to Juilliard. And they'd be like, you did well. You're different. You know, Like.

[A]

You know, what's funny is there's a stigma of that, of growing up in Beverly Hills, which I did.

[B]

I'M sure.

[A]

So I would have a similar experience at times when people would be shitting all over Beverly Hills. I'd be like, I'm from Beverly.

[B]

Yeah, it's a privilege.

[A]

And then people go, really? You know, I would have thought. And it was like, okay, thanks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, any kind of.

[B]

I think it's probably true for any kind of privileged Nepo babies or, you know, like, anything where, you know, it seems like you had a leg up.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

You had. Obviously you had something that the rest of us didn't, and that's why you are where you are. You know, it's like that implication which is like. I mean, sure, probably somewhat. But also, you know, I mean, it's. Especially in show business, it's not easy, Right. It doesn't matter. It finds new and creative ways to disappoint you every chance it gets.

[A]

Right. Well, I think, too, what was interesting about the Ugly Betty phase. Right. And so some of this you've unpacked in your podcast, that's, you know, the rewatching. Right. Of how that your role was very stereotypical of the times.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that, thankfully, I think I heard you say this on Sophia Bush's podcast, but that you guys were always at least on the right side of the stereotype and that the person who engaged in the stereotypical sort of behavior was called out in the wrong way. Am I getting that?

[B]

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you rewatch the show, there's definitely, definitely some language that's not appropriate anymore or wasn't appropriate then either. But, like, there's some casual racism and casual homophobia and transphobia that, you know, we frown upon rightfully. But even then, the people who did all those things to Said all those things, they would always get their comeuppance, like they were bad guys. Like, now we would be more creative in the way we would make them bad. We wouldn't just make them hateful or bigots. But, you know. And then they brought on Rebecca Romijn to play a trans woman, which you wouldn't do now. Right, of course.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And there were lots of transphobic jokes, but ultimately, that character was loved by her mother and her brother, who was really freaked out by the fact that he now had a sister. Came around and loved her, too. So ultimately, like, the show was. The show was ahead of its time, I think, in a lot of ways.

[A]

Well, and I think it's one of the, I wanna say, responsibilities of the arts, in a sense, whether the arts chose for this to Be its role or not, to kind of prepare us as a society for what we should have been able to do on our. Our own more easily. Right. If that makes sense.

[B]

Sure. It's just even like, I mean, I think about pronouns and the way that we use pronouns now and how even for like a queer person who, you know, like, thinks he's real woke, I would stumble. I would be like, wait, Oh. I mean, I was always. I never thought it was a bad thing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or looked down upon pronouns like many, many did and do. But.

[A]

But it, but that complicated.

[B]

It took me a second to like, wait, wait, wait, what am I saying? What am I supposed to say? Sorry. You know, like that.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's. Well, I think especially because for younger generations, right. For whom this shift is earlier in their lives, they're less baked, you know, their habits are less baked. And so, you know, I see it a lot through my friends who have, you know, kids who are in their teens and twenties who are like, mom, you're not supposed to say that, you know, and she's like, oh, sorry, you know, but. And almost all of my mom friends with kids those ages have those experiences of like, I'm trying, but you have to have some grades for me. You have to give me some grace of. Doesn't mean let me off the hook, but there has to be grace there.

[B]

Yeah. My intentions are in the right place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well.

[A]

And did you feel, because you, I mean, you must have been aware in some ways of, okay, you could go down this path of choosing roles that continue to support that, that are sort of feel more stereotypical, but you chose a different path. Like, it seems like to me that you went down, you went to theater straight from Ugly Betty. Right. And was that intentional in terms of.

[B]

It was intentional in that because I had played Mark St. James, who, although he was a three dimensional character, eventually, like, you know, over four seasons, there were a lot of great stories and a lot of get to know him and know why he ticked. And he was ultimately good to Betty at times. He wasn't always evil, but ultimately he was. I mean, when I auditioned for the role, you know, the role of Betty was a paragraph of description. The role of Wilhelmina was a paragraph of description. The role of Mark was bitchy gay assistant. And that was it. And that was kind of the thing, you know, like, there were a lot of that. There were a lot of like, you know, that was kind of where the gay characters were.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, they were sort of the snarky friend or the Snarky assistant or they were usually kind of mean. And I. And it wasn't the only. There were others that came later that I played that were like, I played other mean gays on TV after Mark. But I knew right away, after the show was over that I didn't want to do that again. And I didn't. It wasn't always. It wasn't the same. You know, I never played the same guy again, but I don't think. But. But I knew. I don't want that to happen again. But it was also. The industry didn't have anything for me.

[A]

So that balancing, though, was interesting. And did you feel in theater that there was more flexibility there?

[B]

Yeah, there was a. In the theater, in television, because they have access to absolutely anyone that they want, they can really pick actors, like swatches. Like you're picking a color for your. They can really, like, well, maybe this actor is the best at this, but we need them to look like this or give this essence. And, you know, and so that's why, especially in television and film, I always think, and I always say to anybody, like, if you didn't get that job, assuming you didn't blow the audition, right. It's because it was never gonna be you.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Like, they were not looking for you. They might have thought they were, but then when they saw whomever got the job, they realized, oh, no, that's who we're looking for. Thank you. You were great. But that's who we were looking for. Unless you blew it, you know, and that's always a thing. You might blow it. You might go into the audition and totally blow it. And that's. That's unfortunately on you. We've all done it. But if you don't get a TV job, especially if you're close, if you get close, it's because it was not you. It was the other person. And in the theater, it's a little bit more like. The theater is such a team sport.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, like, doing TV and film is like you're a cog in a wheel well.

[A]

And also in theater, it seems as if, because it's so common for someone to. Then it's more about the character, so someone else may come in and play that role. Right. And then it's never a doppelganger for the person who created the role. So we're sort of used to that. Maybe. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, you kind of can wear a role, you know, like Richard II or Hamlet. You know, it's like, I'm not gonna do this part the way John Gielgud played this part 60 years ago. But I could see myself in parts John Gielgud played because these roles are meant to last. They're built to last and be replaced or understudied. I mean, an understudy will sometimes be urged to do it like the person that they're understudying it. But that's more about the other actors. That's more about making the other actors.

[A]

Feel comfortable and not feeling like someone who comes like. What's it called? Like, the touring repertoire. They don't have to do it like the person on Broadway, right?

[B]

No, not just necessarily. I mean, I think some things get baked in. I think it depends on the show. I was a replacement on o' Mary recently.

[A]

I was. I know.

[B]

Have you seen it?

[A]

Oh, my God. Okay, so I had wanted to see it again in the summer when you were in it, but I saw it a bit about a year ago with.

[B]

Cole and the original cast. Incredible.

[A]

Incredible. It was amazing, I have to say. So I went with my friend Anjali, and there were several moments I like to go to the theater not knowing anything about the story. And so, you know, that was a little complicated. When I went to see Leopoldstadt and I thought it was a comedy going in.

[B]

Okay, you thought Leopoldstadt was a comedy?

[A]

It was going to be a comedy. I don't know why. I have no idea why. I knew nothing about it except it was poor Rip Tom Stoppark. I know so. Ugh. Whom I sat next to at a dinner party one time and was just so utterly charming.

[B]

Oh, so you thought it was gonna be like him?

[A]

Yeah, I just.

[B]

Well, some of his plays are very, like, charming and bubbly.

[A]

I don't know what was wrong with me, but normally I like to go to the theater and know nothing. So I knew nothing. And there are a few moments where I was like, oh, I really hope I don't get recognized. Like, it's just gonna be a little complicated. President certain sexual acts.

[B]

And I was like, okay, that is so funny, Monica.

[A]

So fucking hard. Oh, my God, it was so good. It was so good.

[B]

It's a brilliant play.

[A]

It is.

[B]

It is a brilliant. It's not just funny. It's brilliant.

[A]

It is. It's brilliant.

[B]

It's such a good play.

[A]

And I told, you know, everybody I knew who saw it, I was like, I'm not sure you should go with your kids.

[B]

Did you get recognized?

[A]

No, I did. No. I mean, if someone did, nobody said anything to me. They were kind Enough to be like, oh, we'll let this.

[B]

But also, that's baller that you went to see that even if you didn't, like, even if you didn't know what it was about, if you knew what it was about, you still would have gone, you know, you still.

[A]

Yes, yes. But I might have worn a baseball hat. Like, I might have just sort of gone, okay, but it was so great. And also, that is amazing, you know, how wonderful that we can have presidents and blowjobs and is not anywhere there. Like, thank you. Thank you, Cole. Love you so much. Wouldn't have been appropriate in a period play anyway, but I'm just gonna pretend that Cole Escola would not have done that to me.

[B]

No, I think Cole would have respected you.

[A]

You know, it's interesting. I only learned recently that if you're a well known person and you go to the theater and you don't go backstage, that people. And then they hear that you were there, they think you didn't like the show. And I'm like, oh, I. Unless I know someone in the show, I always feel like, what am I gonna do? Go, oh, hi, I.

[B]

Okay, this is a very interesting topic of conversation because first, I want to. I, as a Broadway actor, absolve you of feeling that way.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because yes, that is not an untrue stereotype, but people do. I have been there. I've been in shows where we hear someone's there and they don't come back. And we're like, why didn't Patti LuPone come back? Or whatever, you know, like, why didn't. I think I saw Patti LuPone? She didn't come back. You know, whatever. Not Patty. She would have come back. But it's like, these people are just people. They want to live their lives or they don't know, or they're modest or shy or, like, just leave it. People alone. You don't like. Because I have been. There have been shows that I have seen where I have definitely known people on the cast, but been so emotionally wrecked by the show or delighted by the show. Cause there's, you know, I mean, I don't know if you ever stay for talkbacks. Sometimes you see a show or a movie and there's a talkback with the creatives afterwards, and you love the movie, and then the talkback ruins it. You're like, oh, I just wish I hadn't. I wish I hadn't seen that part. I loved the movie. And then they came out and ruined it, started talking about it.

[A]

Right, exactly.

[B]

And that's Never. I mean, actors, especially Broadway actors, they're all lovely and gracious and wonderful. And so if you go backstage, they're going to be lovely and gracious and wonderful all the time. But they just did the show. Like, they're exhausted. They just. And sometimes it's like a whole other show when people come backstage.

[A]

Well, Alan Cummings, one of my dearest friends, and he.

[B]

He puts on a show.

[A]

He puts. I mean, that's how Club Cumming was in his dressing room.

[B]

You know, after Cabaret, it's probably easier to just put on a show than to, like. And just assume every night after the show there's another show and it's on my terms. That's what's so smart about what Alan does. He's like, this is on my terms. If you want to come say hi to me, you come to my dressing room, you drink my booze, and you talk about what I want to talk about.

[A]

My keys. There was a whole shaking the keys song thing there. So. But.

[B]

And some theaters is. It's not a convenient setup. You can't bring them on the stage. You can't do this. You can't. Like Richard ii. You can't. Nobody can come backstage. There's no space. It's tiny theater.

[A]

Yeah. I would take it personally if I tried to go backstage and then they were like. Somebody said, oh, yeah, no, we don't have people come backstage. I would go, oh, they don't want me.

[B]

So, blah, blah, blah. No, it's a real thing. I mean, during COVID Right, right. It was definitely a thing. And then there's some shows where it's a thing. And then there's. Sometimes this happened at Omari's. Annoyed me. Like, a really big famous person would come, and then we wouldn't know, right? They'd be like. Afterwards, they'd be like, katy Perry was here.

[A]

It's like, oh, my God.

[B]

Cool. Katy Perry was here. And then Katy Perry's security. Katy Perry was awesome. So lovely. I love her. I would leave my husband for her, but they wouldn't let anyone else in the building, right? It's like, well, we have one of my guests, one of my white friends that are sitting outside on 46th street in the rain like that. So it's a bit of a complicated thing. And I've had nights at Richard II where I'm like. I'm sneaking out the back door, and I'm not gonna. Cause we have to go to the lobby or the street to greet our friends, Right? And everyone's so nice I mean, it's not like any. But when you're Richard II and you've just finished the play and you walk into the lobby.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everyone feels obligated to say something. And I appreciate that, and it's so nice. But. But sometimes it's like, I'm sorry, there's one person over there that I have to talk to and all these people in between.

[A]

I think it's this sort of bigger thing that is complicated in the world right now. Not even just about whether you're a recognizable person or not. And that is the question of what the transaction is. You know, like, I get very annoyed by when I go to buy something and they say, okay, what's your email? And I'm like, that's not the transaction. The transaction is I give you money, you give me the fucking thing that I want, I give you my data, I give you permission to email me all the time. Like, that's not the transaction. And so it's the transaction of coming to the theater is to sit and watch and experience this person as this character. Right.

[B]

I absolve you of ever having felt that they would be insulted that you didn't come back. I certainly absolve you of. I promise, anytime they said no one goes back, they didn't mean you. They mean everyone.

[A]

Oh, my God. I'm like, people are gonna.

[B]

They would. Absolutely. There's nobody on Broadway or in the theater that wouldn't want to meet you.

[A]

Oh, it's very sweet. Thank you.

[B]

We'd be delighted to have you. But it is. It's a weird thing. It's a weird thing. And honestly, I think when I hear someone's been there, like, I did this play about Barbra Streisand called Buyer and Seller, where I played. She has a mall in her basement. Do you know about this?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So she has a street of shops in her basement. And the wonderful playwright, Jonathan Tollens. Imagine that some actor got hired to work down there. None of that's true. But that's what this play is. It's brilliant. One man play.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I played the guy who gets hired to work down there and then everyone else. So Barbara, the house manager, James Brolin, all these characters. And it is a wonderful play. And it was a huge hit off Broadway and everyone came. It was one of those plays that like every. I mean, I did the show first at the rattlestick theater for 99 seats. And within, before we'd even opened one night, my stage manager came back and I'm telling you, My dressing room is the size of this chair. And there was a curtain. And she came back, she opened the curtain. She's like, um, Barry Manilow's on the other side of this curtain.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

And I was like, what?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I was like, was I good? Was I good tonight? Was I good? And I love Barry Manilow, and I had met him before, and I was like. But everyone came, and one night, and I would hear, you know, bette Midler's in the audience tonight. Or, you know, like, Joan Rivers is in the audience tonight.

[A]

Barbara Streisand come?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Never heard that one. Yeah, she never came, but I'm glad it wasn't for her. But I remember one night at the show, you know, so everyone was, you know, every night, who's here tonight? Barbara Walters is here. You know, like, Jane Fonda came twice. Like, it's crazy. Like, everyone came, and one night they were like, sounds like Neil Diamond's in the audience. And I love Neil Diamond. I was like, oh, okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, that's. And then he didn't come back afterwards. And I was like, you know, on the one hand, good for him. He doesn't know me. He doesn't owe me anything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He bought a ticket. He paid his due. But also, he might have been coming because he wanted to have a laugh about Barbara and not draw attention to it. Here I am drawing attention to it also, by the way, might not have been him. I never got confirmation that it was him. It was just someone that someone thought might have been Neil diamond, or maybe it was Neil Diamond. I don't know. But I remember talking to John, the playwright about it and being like, yeah, Neil diamond didn't come. And he was like, you know what? I respect it when they don't come back. I actually respect that because they're not assuming you want to see them. They're not assuming, you know, and they're just having their night. They don't want to be famous for that night.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I'm sure you feel this way. Like, some nights, you just don't want to be famous.

[A]

That is. I think, for me, it's more just a. It just. I'm like, I. I just don't want to insert myself in a situation.

[B]

You also didn't ask to be famous.

[A]

No, I didn't, but I. You know, now I embrace that I'm a recognizable person. So, you know.

[B]

But when did that. Can I ask you a question? Of course.

[A]

Of course. Yeah. It's the conversation.

[B]

When did that happen. Was there a moment where you thought, I'm okay now, being a public figure?

[A]

Yeah, it was. I don't know that there was, like, a specific moment, but there was definitely a period in time where it was sort of the culmination of a process of really having to integrate and accept all the times that I have tried. You know, from going to graduate school to going on 50 job interviews and not getting a job, but getting a job. You know, the job offer was like, well, we deal with the press, and you'd have to talk to the press or you'd have to come to our party. And it's like, I'm not doing that. It's an election year, and someone connected to this story is running. Like, I'm not that person. And so there came a point where there was no other option. Like, there just. I had tried to start my own businesses, and I had just tried and tried and tried. And so I think in the culmination of work, I had also started doing all this spiritual work and this, like, resonance. I call it my energy work, but it's like consciousness resonance now. People get sound work, you know, so vibrational stuff. And really, in trying to heal my field and re. Pattern my field. And so we'd done all this work around my relationship to fame and. And so my goals, being around being seen for my true self and trying to take this, you know, this. I'd have this image of the atomic bomb test if. Bikini Atoll, the mushroom cloud, right? And so I'd had this, like, image and a session, but handwritten in the cloud was the word compassion. And it was all tinted in green. And I tried to dissect it after. And. And where I landed was this idea that when people could feel compassion for what happened to me, that that compassion would radiate. And so that. That was part of this whole, like, okay, if this is gonna be different. And I had even tried accepting this different, like, okay, I'm gonna do it now, and it's gonna be different. And it still didn't work. But I was protected. All those failures were protecting me from kind of stepping back out in the right way, in the right time, in my voice, in a way that reflected me the most. And that was my Vanity Fair essay in 2014 that I was so lucky Graydon Carter let me write it. I was lucky. I had these. I needed two editors, so I. You know, two amazing people who helped encourage me. And so I think that it was that part where I just sort of. And then slowly just kind of doing More and more. And it's really always been this tug of war where I've kind of finally gotten to a point where I really had to accept. And it's very weird for me of like, I'm just not supposed to have a small life. And that's a very weird thing when you didn't set out to have a big life like that. I mean, sure, I did musical theater in high school and was like, I'm gonna be, you know, a psychologist and a Broadway star and, you know, or whatever, but it was like there was no real. I was never really, like, wanted to be a well known person that way. And so. And certainly not from this.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

So I think having to metabolize that is still awkward for me, but it just feel. I feel like every time in the last almost 30 years that I've gotten small and thought, okay, I'm gonna have this small life. It doesn't work out. So here I am, here I am.

[B]

Starting in a podcast.

[A]

I have a podcast. And I feel, well, that seems like the perfect.

[B]

This feels like the perfect marriage of like, what, you know, like you could have been a podcast. You know, obviously there weren't podcasts.

[A]

Right.

[B]

When you became a public figure.

[A]

Right. But it feels like I love getting to have conversations with people. I really, I think so much of my own experience has been around this very elastic, broader idea of reclaiming. And I think how we all do that so much in our lives, but we kind of often have narrow definitions. But within reclaiming, there's, you know, you have something, you lose it, there's grief, then there's like, resilience and rebuilding and ultimately a version of a triumph. And so all of those things are interesting to me and in the human condition. So getting to sit and chat with. I'm like, consider myself so lucky. And I think what's, you know, what's always been really. What's been really important to me in this last year has been this idea of, you know, I'm asking somebody to come and trust me that we can have this open conversation. And I'm gonna protect you, that it is safe. So if you walk out of here and you are like, I woke up in the middle of the night feeling, you know, bad about this thing.

[B]

I said, please cut my joke about yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, of course I was just thinking about reclaiming. And like, when you were asking about how after Ugly Betty, I took a different path. You know, I was encouraged not to come out. Oh, of the closet or, I mean, Nobody ever said, that's not true. People said it. People said, don't come out for sure.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

I mean, it was really sorry. Like, I'm glad. I don't. I don't know that that's a thing anymore in the industry. Maybe it is, but. I'm sorry.

[B]

I don't think. I mean, Johnny Bailey being Sexiest Man Alive is certainly helpful, right? I think we've come so. So far, but I'm sure there are still closeted actors that are afraid that if they came out, they would not work as much. And it might be true. I mean, who knows? Who knows? But the thing more than being encouraged to stay in the closet, the thing that I was more encouraged to do was to play less gay characters or to not play any more gay characters. I mean, I was told that a few times, like, all right, this is the last one. Which would have been totally impossible, first of all, like, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be talking to you right now. I wouldn't have any kind of notable career, maybe no career at all, if I had stopped playing gay because I was playing gay before I came out. You know, like, even when I was in the closet, everyone, you know, like, they could see it, and they were still casting you that way. So, you know, it's not like Ugly Betty was the first gay role I played anyway. Even when I was playing roles that weren't specifically gay, they weren't like. I certainly wasn't playing macho guys or, you know, guys whose problem was the woman. You know, it was. I was playing guys whose problem was something else. But I was doing a play. I was actually on hiatus from Ugly Betty after the second year, and I was doing this play where I played a gay guy in fashion, just like Ugly Betty. But it was a drama, and it was a completely different style of acting. It was just, like, totally different. And that's when I was like, this BS warning that I got from all these people not to play gay implies that there's only one kind of gay, right? And in tv, there was kind of. I mean, it was sort of like there was the one thing. I mean, Ugly Betty came on right after Will and Grace ended. And all anybody could say was that what I was doing was, you know, filling the void left by Sean Hayes. And it's like, yeah, well, that's because I was kind of doing a lot of the same things. You know, we were playing a lot of the same jokes, a lot of the same bits, and I would never you know, he's a genius and I adore him, and he's an actually incredible actor. Far beyond playing that role. But it was. For me, it was getting to do it right away. And that was a lucky thing. This play I had worked on before, Ugly Betty. I'd done readings of this writer's play in the living room. And I thought it was really good and very serious. Yes, had humor, but it was not campy, not flashy. And the play was a nice hit and got great reviews. And I was like. And that's when I was like, oh, I'm not gonna be in the closet anymore. This is silly. I'm not gonna worry about not playing gay characters because look at this. These are two. On paper, you could say that they're the same guy, but they're completely different guys. And we contain multitudes. There's tons of kinds of people out there that queer people are not all. Marc St. James from Ugly Betty or Jack from Will and Grace.

[A]

Queer people aren't a monolith. I think that's like any group, you know.

[B]

Totally. And so that was a big moment for me where, you know, and then from then on, anytime somebody said. Because it happened after that, people said, would say, this should be your last gay character. You've done a lot of them. And after this, you should. And anytime I'd hear someone say that, I think, oh, you're. You don't get it. You don't get that. I am not pigeonholed as being queer. That's not what's happened. There is so many different ways that I can go within my sexual orientation that are not that guy that I played first up. And. And sometimes I do play straight characters, like it does happen. But that was, I think maybe my way of reclaiming, you know, my craft was like, you can't tell me that.

[A]

I'm only, well, marrying your self identity and your craft together. Right. You know, I have great quote from yours that's I think around playing Brian in shrinking. Right. So you're saying his problems are not being gay and he has lots of adult problems and being gay isn't the biggest one. I think we're showing a queer man of a 40 something in a way that we haven't seen before. And I'm really proud of that.

[B]

That's me. Yeah, he's right, that guy. No, I think that's. Yeah, it's true. I think that's really true. I also have this queer theater festival called Pride Plays. Yes.

[A]

I wanted. Now, did you and Ryan start that or you and Ryan have something different?

[B]

No. Ryan is also a writer, and we did one of his plays in Pride Plays, and he's acted in Pride plays before. He's also an actor. He's also in Richard ii.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

I started with this guy, Doug Nevin, who's an amazing producer and very good friend. And. And we were really, really. We were talking sort of going back to what you were saying about what television and film can do in the ways that it shows the world, the way that it could be, the evolution where we could be. And for many of us, we are. I mean, I think about. I often think about, like, Christmas movies, and I'm in this Christmas movie called Single all the Way that's on Netflix. Oh, okay. And it was the first gay rom com that Netflix ever made.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I play this guy who's unlucky in love and ends up falling for his best friend. And it's so sweet. And it's all. I bring him home to my family, and I'm commiserating this heartbreak, and they all see it, and I'm the last one to see it. Oh, wait, we're in love. And it's so sweet. And Kathleen. And Jimmy's my mom. Jennifer Coolidge is my aunt.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Barry Bostick is my dad. And it's a homophobia free film.

[A]

Yeah. Great.

[B]

In no place, anywhere in it, is there any kind of homophobia ever. And I'm so. That's. To me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's the way we should be making movies. I mean, yes, of course we have to look back and we have to see where we came from. But there is so much trauma in the queer community. We all go through it. We've all gone through it. And so much of our art is that is trauma, is working through the trauma. And there is absolutely a place for that, especially the work. Excuse me. Especially the work that theater and film did for the AIDS crisis. Incredible movies and plays about that very important, vital, all that stuff. But also, we can show the world the way it can be.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And the way it is for many. And that's kind of one of the missions of Pride plays is, yes, we will look back and yes, we will do these canon works where people are traumatized from their health or their families or being attacked on the street or by the government. Or by the government. But we can also show plays about queer people where their problems aren't being queer.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And the way that we've been showing straight people and something that the festival, because the theater is already so queer. That's like, that was like. It's not that there's a shortage of.

[A]

Queer people in the theater.

[B]

It's not like we're trying to recruit more queer people for the theater. There's plenty of us out there in the theater. But it like everything else has been dominated by white men.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so another part of doing the festival is to find and encourage and nurture these other voices. Because anytime we would look back, anytime we would say, well, what about an old play? What about a canon play? All the famous gay plays are written by white men.

[A]

Right, right. So that changing the lens. Yeah, that's so, so interesting.

[B]

But that's true about, you know. Yeah, I know all the things. I know are these old white men. It's just all the things.

[A]

Okay, so the last question I ask everybody on the podcast is if there's anything that you are currently like working on reclaiming, and that's, you know, in this elastic definition of some people, it's a hobby or being able to go to a place or personality trade or anything.

[B]

So I've had a very lucky stretch of work the past few years with shrinking and a bunch of Broadway stuff and now this off Broadway play. And it has really, really been non stop. Like actually, and that's included like some injuries and some surgeries. Like, it's been a crazy several years since I've been doing really, since I've been doing shrinking. We did shrinking and then I did. Right after shrinking, I did a Broadway musical and then I went right into shrinking again. And then another musical now O Mary and. And Richard ii. And Richard II was like a real culmination for me. Cause I've been trying to get it done for a long time, so.

[A]

Right, right. Seed planted when you were at Juilliard for that. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And I've been bugging this theater company and then I bugged this director and then I helped like raise the money and like, and like, so it's really been.

[A]

Okay. So you've really birthed this in many.

[B]

Ways and it's been so special. And it is. We have three more weeks. And I'm so glad that I have that three more weeks. And I'm also like really, really remarkably tired from the last four years. And so the thing that I am for the first time ever really clear about. Cause we're like dogs with food actors. We're always like, when's my next meal coming from?

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And so we are always looking for the next job and, and I am looking for the next job. Sure. But I don't want it to be in three weeks.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I really want. In the. I really want to reclaim, like, and find out what I'm like when I'm not working. And that's a luxury because we're all always looking. And I'm so grateful for this time and this work that I've had for the last four years, especially considering I'm going back and forth from TV to theater. Like, that's the dream, and I want that to continue. But I also think. I think that I need to be kinder to my body and let it rest and. And figure out who I am again, you know, Like, I'm playing all these characters all the time.

[A]

Sure. And how have you changed right through playing the characters and those things and resting? It's. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I get that.

[B]

And, like, lay on a beach or go on an adventure.

[A]

Can I come?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'll come too, and see family, you know, like, I've neglected family. Because when you do theater, you're working when everyone else is socializing, literally, your work is their social. And so that means you work on the holidays. That means you. And if you don't work on the holidays, it means you gotta stay close by so that you can work the day after the holidays or the day before the holidays. And so I'm gonna reclaim myself, I think. Reclaim Michael. Not Michael as Richard II or Michael as Mary's teacher or Michael as Brian from Chicago.

[A]

Not Mikey either.

[B]

And not Mikey. Although maybe I'll be Mikey. Maybe I'll stand on my stool and be Mikey.

[A]

Thank you so much. This was so great.

[B]

It's such a pleasure. Monica, you are a lovely, lovely person.

[A]

Thank you. Ditto.

[B]

I love the show. I'm so happy for you.

[A]

Oh, thank you. Now time for Nutter Butter. Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF Media Studio. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker. And our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.