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- [00:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Miley Cyrus. Yep. I had the privilege of sitting with the incredible Miley Cyrus for this week's episode. We, we went deep, we went real, we compared Reclaiming notes. There is so much wisdom packed into this 32 year old icon. I think you'll be as blown away as I was. Anyway, I hope you find something in our chat to connect to and thanks for joining us on Reclaiming. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Audible. From nail biting suspense to sweeping romance, Audible brings every thrill to life. Discover what lies beyond on the edge of your seat. Today, sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com reclaiming Miley, I'm so thrilled to have you here. Welcome to Reclaiming.
- [01:14]
Miley Cyrus
I love the title.
- [01:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, thank you.
- [01:16]
Miley Cyrus
Great title.
- [01:17]
Monica Lewinsky
Thank you, thank you. Well, I got to see Something Beautiful, your new visual album over the weekend.
- [01:23]
Miley Cyrus
I didn't even know you would get to see it. I, I, I would have sat with you.
- [01:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, I was, well, I was on the plane and you should have seen me because I was like making sure no one could see. Although I also wanted to kind of grab the thing and go, I just want everyone to know I'm watching. Miley's new album that's coming out is mesmerizing.
- [01:40]
Miley Cyrus
Thank you.
- [01:40]
Monica Lewinsky
I really appreciate that and I'm excited to talk about it a bit later.
- [01:44]
Miley Cyrus
I feel like the title of Something Beautiful actually resonates and really compliments, you know, Reclaiming and what your platform and what your podcast stands for. Because Something Beautiful, just the title alone carries a lot of power, a lot of weight, a lot of energy and we all, you know, I don't actually want to narrow it down to this specific time because as you know, as much as anyone, every generation and every society and community experiences different struggles. So it all feels like we're all experiencing the worst of the worst, you know, in our own way. And so I felt like there was a need for this medicine, which I think music is some of the most potent in a very kind of sick culture and time. But it's not specific to my time, it's not specific to now. It's just what the world really is. It's a place that's, it's hard and it's tough and it can be cruel sometimes. And so to inject and infuse beauty into a World that I feel like, you know, experiences a lot of pain and hardship. It feels like it's really a purpose for me. And without purpose, I'm not really interested.
- [02:49]
Monica Lewinsky
Do you feel like you're a channel for music?
- [02:53]
Miley Cyrus
Sometimes I feel like I don't know where music comes from through me. Like it will just arrive, or I'll just say a lyric that I feel like I've said before, but it's brand new. And I always call those my God moments. You know, I'm not super religious, and sometimes I tap in and out of my spirituality more than others because as life is hard, it's hard to believe that something is greater than us protecting and moving these chess pieces because at times it can feel so random. But, yeah, I do feel like at times I'm really able to tap into something that's greater than myself. So I don't really take credit for any of the songwriting or for exactly what I do. I just think that I am kind of this. I'm the puppet for the vessel, for God's work, you know?
- [03:33]
Monica Lewinsky
The vessel, yeah. It's. It was so interesting, like, sitting down to start to do a deep dive around all this. And I realized that I was going to have to make this confession to you that because I'm 51, I did not ever see Hannah Montana. So I knew about it, of course. And my friends with kids. Those kids were too young, so. So what I ended up getting to experience, though, was I had no idea how fucking funny you are. You are so funny. And it's not just like. It's not just off the cuff funny, but it's, you know, deeper. And then you have these moments where it feels like, you know, your humor and your sort of adventurousness and your inquisitive nature come together. I was laughing hysterically when I heard that you went looking to see where the gophers go.
- [04:24]
Miley Cyrus
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think that was in a very interesting time in my life.
- [04:29]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [04:29]
Miley Cyrus
I mean, well, you know, the reason I was excited to speak with you is because anytime I do an interview, you know, it sometimes can feel like I'm already anxious about it because of the. I know that they're going to research me, and there's times of my career or of my journey that I'm. It's not my shame that I hold with it. It's the shame that surrounded that time in my life. And I always get a little anxious or kind of just annoyed simply that I know that if I'm going to be interviewed, that I'm most likely going to be reviewed from the beginning, and there's gonna be these times that I can go. I'm really proud of that, and I'm glad that you saw it. And there's times that I'm not, and there's certain years that I feel I wish I could just kind of skip over and get to the place that I am now. But the place that I am now is not near as interesting or as meaningful if you don't actually go through some of the guts of my timeline that carries a little bit more of that guilt and some of the, you know, honestly, trauma and some of that. That those triggers. So knowing that you went straight to kind of the beginning of my career, and you're looking at it from a place of. I see how much joy you brought people, how much laughter you put into the homes of families all around the world. That's something that I'm really proud of. And then there's other moments in my career that I still am, you know, dealing with not just the way that they made me feel, but the way that others reacted and how I took that reaction, you know, for myself. So that's something I'm excited to talk about.
- [05:55]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, well, I mean, I think, like me, you're also a social canvas, you know, and people, somehow, they project so much onto those of us who find ourselves in that role in the world.
- [06:10]
Miley Cyrus
Right.
- [06:11]
Monica Lewinsky
I don't know 100% why people do it, you know, I don't know if you have any thoughts about that to people.
- [06:16]
Miley Cyrus
Why people are mean.
- [06:17]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, I mean, it's more than just me mean, I think, because I don't know, I feel like when you're mean, you kind of know you're being mean. And sometimes I think some of what people project, they don't even realize. They don't even realize what they're saying or doing.
- [06:32]
Miley Cyrus
I had to do a lot of work realizing that it's theirs and it's none of my business, you know. And something I meditated and kind of created a mantra was like, how people think of me or see me isn't really any of my business. It's hard to draw that line. But without that line, I would constantly be confused on who and what I actually, you know, stand and what I want to be in this lifetime, which, you know, as far as I know it, I don't have concrete proof that I have another one. I hope that I do. Which is another thing I thought about when I was gonna speak with you. You know, what it would be like to have another lifetime, to be another person, to not be Monica or Miley everywhere that you go. And I thought a lot about you, that I wonder if you have a just like a hard time or if you divide yourself from celebrity because, you know, when I was listening to you interviewing yourself, Monica on Monica was. Celebrities kind of choose this life. And I didn't really choose it because I was only 10, so I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know necessarily because it was also my dad. In the 90s, it was very different. There wasn't cell phones where everyone's a paparazzi. There was a sense of privacy. Still, just by being on a 500 acre farm, we truly could be alone. But now, you know, with drones and things and the Internet, you're never really alone. And so I think that I've had to find the compassion for myself that it's hard for other people to. Because as a celebrity, especially as one that gets into it as young as I did, I didn't have the full wherewithal to understand what it would mean to make this choice and to pretty much be famous forever.
- [08:06]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, it's interesting too, because I think we talk in society a lot about privacy, but anonymity is not something we ever really think about until you lose it and then you can't really get it back.
- [08:18]
Miley Cyrus
You were speaking about not being able to sit outside at a restaurant, which I haven't been able to do since I was 12. And I can, I am able, you know, when someone goes, well, of course I have the physical ability to, but it's not the same experience.
- [08:31]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, you wanna be able to exhale. I mean, you know, I kind of had gone into what I call my dark decade, you know, and then slowly started to emerge about 10 years ago. And gratefully, I think it's. I've had the right level of. There's enough interest when I have things I wanna talk about if I'm doing an anti bullying campaign or I get to launch a podcast, but. But I can now sit outside at a restaurant and I won't have paparazzi come, thank God. So. But I. I know exactly what you're.
- [09:01]
Miley Cyrus
Feeling, you know, and I thought about that a lot of just, you know, I made a choice that has altered my life forever. And I always like to kind of go back and go, where did it happen? Like, because everything that happens to us started somewhere that we probably have forgotten about. It seems, you know, benign at that time. You go, well, I spoke to my mom yesterday who's you know, she my best friend. Her and I are really close. We were sitting outside and I'm like, can you believe that? We moved to LA from Nashville, Tennessee, and never went home. We never went back. I spend very little time there. But I decided at 10, I wanted to move to LA and be famous. And boom, I'm like, you know, turning 33 and it's. I'm still in almost that same day that happened that long ago. And so everything that we do changes everything that we do. And so that's why anything is so important to me. Sometimes I can get a little hung up on the little things, but the little things can always take a turn for the big thing. Something you think is small can lead to something so much greater than you ever expected.
- [09:58]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I had a crazy experience where it was like, I. You know, the voice in your head, right? So I was. Had gone to the beach and I was going one way, and then the. This voice in the head was like, go the other way, Go the other way. So I did. And then I ran into someone that I had, like, had had a negative interaction. I did not think I was at fault. And the little voice was like, make amends. Make amends. So I fucking did.
- [10:21]
Miley Cyrus
Yeah.
- [10:22]
Monica Lewinsky
And all week long, I just was thinking about that. It was the strangest thing. And two weeks later, I had. I found myself in a situation where I realized that was a dress rehearsal.
- [10:33]
Miley Cyrus
What do you mean by it was a dress rehearsal?
- [10:35]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, I think that if I had found myself in the situation I did, and I hadn't had, like, almost the energetic emotional muscle memory of having, okay, listening to this voice going the other direction, making amends, when I, you know, wasn't sure, just that whole process and going back to the person, I don't know that I would have been able to find it so quickly in a moment where I was now, really, this meant something different. It was something that I would have really regretted if I hadn't been able to step into a better version of myself in that moment. I would've really regretted not being able to make those amends.
- [11:19]
Miley Cyrus
My family and I have had a really difficult, you know. What did you call your decade?
- [11:24]
Monica Lewinsky
Dark decade.
- [11:24]
Miley Cyrus
Dark decade. Yeah, we had one of those. Half of us weren't speaking to each other at one point, and we cleaned all that up. That was a really important part of my year this year was all of my family putting those lines of communications back together a lot because of, you know, I had a lot of loyalty to my mom. The way that Families do when parents get divorced, you know. But, you know, I definitely, in that situation, I watched what happens when you don't clean things up as they're happening. They really do stack. And then all of a sudden go, oh, my God, it's been 10 years, and this is a mess that I barely even know how to start. This is, like, emotional hoarding. But I just kind of bust through the pile that's stacked and just go, I'm here, you're here. Let's start by having a good time together. And then as we start bringing some, like, happiness and joy into each other's life, then we'll just be in a better place to have these conversations. Cause I'd rather get it balanced first.
- [12:13]
Monica Lewinsky
Did you have to go to, like, family counseling to do that, or was it.
- [12:17]
Miley Cyrus
We're so messy. We didn't even do any of that. We just all started going, you know, to get each other in a room, to even get to counselor counseling would have been a war, right? So it was easier to just go, white flag. I mean, I even wrote a song about it that's actually not on this album. I'm working on another album, and that's a song that I'm working on called Secrets. And I wrote this song about my dad because I wanted him to tell me even though they were secrets, even though I didn't really wanna know. I wanted to be the one he felt safe enough to tell me the things that were damning and damaging to the family. But I wanted him to think that as a middle child, I'm old enough that I could take some of that, you know? And I always wanted my family to feel like I was the safe place, that I always had the white flag when they came to talk to me, you know, my psychiatrist, my therapist, who I've gone to forever, named Dr. Amen. Love him.
- [13:06]
Monica Lewinsky
I have, like, I have a whole Eamon story, too, but Eamon's amazing.
- [13:10]
Miley Cyrus
But he. He got me because I'm kind of a competitive person when it comes to, like, sports or things like that. And he was like, you want brain envy? You want people to watch the way you think and envy the way that you think. And then they're going to start. Envy becomes imitation. So have people the way that they. To envy the way that your thoughts are being processed, the more they might kind of start to mirror them, you know, to want to be like them. Like, if you see someone that has great style, suddenly you buy a pair of shoes that maybe you never would have bought, but you go they look so good on her. I want them for myself. So I kind of try to just be a place where people go, wow, I like the way that she's functioning. I want to function like that. So I'm going to kind of mimic it until it becomes natural to them.
- [13:50]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. How old were you? So I'm just thinking because. So when my parents divorced, I was 14. And I was, you know, naughty back then and in ways that nobody even ever thought. Like my. I read all the divorce papers that of course, at 14 years old, you're not supposed to read the divorce papers. And I didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell either my parents that I had. But were you already famous or was this pre fame?
- [14:19]
Miley Cyrus
No, I think, you know, my parents, their stuff started before I was born, you know, so I've watched my mom and my dad stay in things. They are chronically polite. And I, you know, my mom will stay in something that makes her uncomfortable for way too long, you know, not wanting to hurt somebody. And at the end it's just so excruciating for her. And my dad does the same thing, but he processes it differently where, you know, he doesn't want to say or do something maybe that would hurt you. So he does it in a way that you will not see, because what you don't know won't hurt you. So it lives, you know. That's why I wrote a song called Secrets Familiar. Yeah. My dad is probably one of the most well spoken and intelligent. You sit and have a conversation with him. He's like. Sounds like an English major. He spells things wrong, you know, but he. It doesn't matter because what he's saying is so poetic. He's so smart. And so when somebody has that level of intelligence, but they're also very intuitive because my dad's a very spiritual person. Intelligence and intuition sometimes when they get mixed can be very deceiving.
- [15:22]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, well, it can be manipulative.
- [15:24]
Miley Cyrus
Manipulative, you know, watching that word. But yes, because it does come from this really beautiful poetic place. But he's also a politician, so he is. He's getting my vote, you know, when it comes to my mom and my dad in that way. So growing up with a. Actually a political background, I think really affected me in more ways than I understood until I got to be in my 30s.
- [15:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, how interesting. Well, you know, there's that joke that they say Washington is Hollywood for the ugly people.
- [15:52]
Miley Cyrus
So that's crazy. Yeah, I like that.
- [15:54]
Monica Lewinsky
And it is. It is very much like Hollywood in terms of. I think the way people. Things are very transactional. You know, it's transactional there. And the power is sort of. I think that it is something that is both intoxicating, but also something that can be looked at or experienced one way from how people see something out in the world. And then when you're actually in D.C. and you're around the power, and it's more about equals rather than red and blue, right? It's more about, like, how much power do you have? Do you have enough power to hang out with me or go play golf or whatever those things are? But it's.
- [16:35]
Miley Cyrus
Yeah, they definitely. I think it makes sense that politicians and entertainers, they enhance each other. Like when the political campaign. A celebrity endorsement's really important. And it shows that. How much that power and that charm and that charisma, how much it plays a part, you know, and how much people feel like they're being spoken to. And I think there's also a level to celebrity where you get thrown out if you are unrelatable, especially for women. So for guys, I've never heard anyone say, you know, Bruce Springsteen's too good or too pretty. He dresses. He wears jeans and a T shirt in his life, and he wears it on stage. He kind of is who he is. There's a through line. But when it comes to a female, you know, I have a little bit more of a. I called it a drag before we got started. I have more of my Persona, which works as this armor for me. Cause sometimes I feel that if I feel, you know, powerful enough or beautiful enough, I'll have more of a confidence to speak my truth or feel like I'm in character enough to actually be honest. Cause sometimes the character helps my honesty in some way.
- [17:36]
Monica Lewinsky
Wait, I wanna unpack that a little. Are you saying then that there's, like, there is a part of you that doesn't feel confident?
- [17:44]
Miley Cyrus
If, like, if you.
- [17:45]
Monica Lewinsky
If there are ways that the right. In having the outfit or the armor that they're. That it. Or feeling beautiful. Right.
- [17:53]
Miley Cyrus
I think it does something that. That I don't need to do, then it fills a space for me. It gives me a little bit of a break. Because if what I'm wearing or what I look like is entertaining enough, it actually gives me the. Like, the space to be quiet. So sometimes at these events, like, you know, a Met gala or the Grammys, I'm usually the quietest one in the room, which you wouldn't really assume from my Persona. But, you know, it's Mostly because I don't have much to say in those scenarios because they're too, like, you use a great word, transactional for me to actually ever dig my nails or my teeth into something enough that I care to have that conversation. So I allow, you know, I hope that I, like, look so entertaining or, you know, mesmerizing in a way that it actually stops too much of a conversation from happening. Maybe it's a way of, you know, being kind of almost intimidating like an animal would do, you know, like having, you know, spikes or being able to have venom or show your teeth. Like it's kind of me showing my teeth.
- [18:52]
Monica Lewinsky
Right, right. In terms of like Personas and different things. Like, did you. I love this idea of you. I think it's so intelligent. But this idea of being so self aware and so aware of the culture and how the world works that you can sort of create a Persona that stands alone and does all the work that you need to do. It does the work. So do you. When those changes happen for you? Because you've had a number of different Personas, right? I mean, do you see one?
- [19:21]
Miley Cyrus
But I've always kind of had one. Yeah.
- [19:22]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [19:23]
Miley Cyrus
I always have one.
- [19:23]
Monica Lewinsky
Do you see them, but you always have a person who do you see them as? As having been different Personas or is it.
- [19:31]
Miley Cyrus
Yeah, I think they're just different. I think I'm always throwing darts in some way to see what feels good. And so I've tried on so many different identities because I have always been looking for myself. And I really. I think if you had to. If I had to rank, what I respect most, number one would be. And the reason I say this is. Cause I. This isn't me, is consistency. I'm a very inconsistent person. And I, in my inconsistencies, I'm actually very consistent. I'm a. If you're into human design, my calling is to be specifically unspecific and vice versa. Meaning I am very specific, but unspecifically, if that makes sense.
- [20:10]
Monica Lewinsky
No, you have to explain that to me. I'm sorry.
- [20:11]
Miley Cyrus
Like, whoever I am or whatever I'm doing at that time, I'm very sure and very specific about. Okay, like, for example, like if it's a genre and maybe I might throw that away on the next album. But in the moment of that genre, I am specifically only that. And nothing can enter. No jacket, no socks, no music, no furniture, nothing can enter. That does not align with that specific. Whatever the scenario is. But because it's changing all the time, it's unspecific.
- [20:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [20:46]
Miley Cyrus
So I'm constantly renovating myself and my surroundings because I can't even really sit in a room that feels unaligned with me. So I. That's why I don't play stadiums anymore because I don't like to really experience stadiums. So I don't like to play them because I don't like to experience them.
- [21:06]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [21:06]
Miley Cyrus
I think they're disconnected and I think they're too loud and like, I don't.
- [21:09]
Monica Lewinsky
It's a lot of energy, too much.
- [21:11]
Miley Cyrus
Energy and too many people and I don't really like it. Yeah. So, you know, I am very. Whatever it is that I'm. That I believe in, in that mom. It's. I wouldn't say it's like totally finite and it's meaning. It's not that I can't be flexible because I also have had to work on managing the flexibility. I wanted to be flexible so I could bend and not break. But I also don't want to become, like I said, chronically polite. So I'm like working on that a little bit. But yeah. So I'm specifically really unspecific as a person.
- [21:42]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. I think for me I. It was almost in a way the opposite, which is that I felt like I was defined by either so many other people incorrectly or defined by my worst moments.
- [21:57]
Miley Cyrus
Right.
- [21:58]
Monica Lewinsky
That.
- [21:58]
Miley Cyrus
That's all we have in common. Yeah.
- [22:01]
Monica Lewinsky
All I wanted was to just be seen for my true self. Like, I mean that really was.
- [22:05]
Miley Cyrus
Do you feel like you knew who that was?
- [22:09]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, I think a little like love. You know how love, when you're younger, it. You believed it was love, but now you look back, you're like, well, that was, you know, 20 year old love. That was 30. Well, you'll see, you're just.
- [22:20]
Miley Cyrus
That's what I mean by kind of the specifically unspecific too is where you look at something like that and you go in that moment.
- [22:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [22:27]
Miley Cyrus
I really believe that.
- [22:28]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes.
- [22:28]
Miley Cyrus
That's not a Persona.
- [22:30]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. So yeah, I think for me, what I was going to say is that I feel like I keep knowing myself, but then I keep discovering more. And so therefore it's like, well, I didn't really know myself in that moment because I didn't know all the. This other stuff that happened. Right. So. Or these other facets of me or I'll see myself. You know, my therapist taught me, my trauma psychiatrist so taught me, you know, how important it is to notice the small changes because that's how the psyche starts to feel. Safe.
- [23:02]
Miley Cyrus
Right.
- [23:03]
Monica Lewinsky
But it's so, you know, when you start to see those facets, it's like the people in my life who will remind me, you did this differently this time. Like, I may not have seen it, but it was different, so.
- [23:15]
Miley Cyrus
Meaning they kind of give you the gold star that you would forget to, like, ace. Yeah. Like, don't forget you did this.
- [23:21]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. Just reflecting back to me because I think so much of what changes and how we get to know ourselves more and. And understand ourselves is if we're. If we're the kind of person I think we both are. Exactly.
- [23:33]
Miley Cyrus
And that's what I meant by cleaning up other people's stuff is that I think I do sometimes gravitate towards people that don't necessari naturally crave, like, digging deeper and kind of doing that work. And I've realized that just because I do their homework for them and they get, you know, an A, doesn't mean that they're an A student. And I now have just let myself go because I realized that they actually will become who they're meant to be if I don't assist so much. And actually, the kindest thing I can do is let go and not become overpowering in their life. And so I'm learning how to resist my nature to want to be overly helpful, therefore, sometimes hurtful.
- [24:18]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. Okay. Well, you're gonna have to help me.
- [24:21]
Miley Cyrus
You gotta mind your business. Minding my business saves me so much time, too. It's frustrating because you watch and you go. I just know that I could do that in a way that could cause you so much less grief later.
- [24:31]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my God, my brother is gonna listen to this episode. He's be like, see, that's what you do.
- [24:36]
Miley Cyrus
Back up.
- [24:37]
Monica Lewinsky
Right?
- [24:37]
Miley Cyrus
You gotta back up.
- [24:38]
Monica Lewinsky
It's like, you always have an opinion about something. That is true.
- [24:41]
Miley Cyrus
Yeah. And you still get to have it. You know, you just got to, you know, tell someone. That's a vault. Find your vaults in your life.
- [24:46]
Monica Lewinsky
You definitely. You could be a psychologist.
- [24:48]
Miley Cyrus
I would really like to.
- [24:49]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Do you think, like, in a. In the multiverse, where, you know, there's another me?
- [24:54]
Miley Cyrus
Yeah.
- [24:54]
Monica Lewinsky
There's another you. Well, there are lots of other years.
- [24:57]
Miley Cyrus
But one of them is sitting in a chair doing this, I think, because, you know, when I. I have been interrogated so much in my own way in my life. And at one point, there was a petition against me. I think it was called A Million Moms Moms, wanting me to not be able to be because I'm too provocative. That's in my notes. And so when I felt it was really intense and really.
- [25:18]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, Miley, I'm so sorry for the.
- [25:20]
Miley Cyrus
Silliest thing, by the way. I like dressed as a teddy bear and like, you know, moved my butt in a certain way. And it was very offensive because it was a different time in life. As things have. I don't know if we want to say evolved or devolved. I don't know which direction we're going, but we're going. It's a different thing. So I feel that I have a lot of compassion for people and a lot of understanding. And I think the only line that I draw that's pretty concrete and non negotiable is judgment. It's the one thing that I just won't, I won't accept and won't deal with. Actually I'll deal with it, but in a way that rejects it and it is removed from my existence and is not in welcome.
- [25:54]
Monica Lewinsky
Does your ability to do that to it also mean it doesn't.
- [25:58]
Miley Cyrus
It's probably a trauma response. You know, it's like I refuse to even entertain judgment because I've experienced it so much. But now I just think, honestly, I think it's lazy and I think it's weak because I think the truth is you're judging me because you don't have it in you to look at yourself and see what you see in me. That's painful for you to witness and what it's triggering in you. And I think you're lazy and, and that may be cold. But you know what, doctor, Amen. I said I think I'm getting like hard and tough. He goes, well, life is hard and tough, so that's good. At some point, you know, I get, I am really into. We're gonna nurture each other and have more conversations about mental health. That should be as important as any sort of physical ability. Is this, you know, the mental aspect of caring for one another. But I also think that life is hard and that doesn't mean to become calloused or become completely shelled. But it does mean that at times when life is tough, you might have to meet it with the same level of just intensity or energy. And it doesn't have to be negative, it just has to be, you know, I don't really want to get plowed over by some experience in my life. I'd rather in some way die trying in that way.
- [27:19]
Monica Lewinsky
I think now too, especially that we've started to as a society, I think we've started to recognize and work with the nervous system a lot more.
- [27:29]
Miley Cyrus
I'm very into that.
- [27:30]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, me too. So it's just the whole vagus nerve and all that. In fact, I was trying to remember, I. I saw a meme this morning that it was talking about. It was like, hypervigilance versus, oh, interoception. And so the interoception is when you. You look, you check in with your body, right? So it was sort of like the hypervigilance was your mind, and interoception was the process of doing it in the body. Like, yes, the paparazzi sucks, but you fucking feel hunted.
- [28:02]
Miley Cyrus
Right?
- [28:02]
Monica Lewinsky
There's a reason that it's like they say, take a shot with a camera.
- [28:07]
Miley Cyrus
I think about the word capture.
- [28:09]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [28:09]
Miley Cyrus
Like, you know, that alone, like, yeah, the word capture would alert anyone's nervous system to go into overdrive.
- [28:16]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [28:17]
Miley Cyrus
To capture this moment. I really like this quote from Scarlett Johansson. I'm probably gonna get roasted for saying I like it, because I think she got roasted for saying it. But I liked it. She was just saying, I don't want to savor every moment in a photo with the fan. And I do take, you know, when I feel up for it, I do take photos. And I think as much as it takes guts to ask me for a photo, and I respect that, it take guts for me to say, not right now, you know, with my family, or I'm not presenting myself in a certain way that I want blasted across social media. And I want to believe that you're not taking it to post it, but likely it's to prove that we had this moment, and you probably will. And I'm going to get annihilated in the comments, and they're going to make me feel terrible about myself, and I don't really want to put myself in that position. So, no, thank you. But, you know, I liked when she said, you know, you take a photo for a memory, you go, this moment is important. I want to savor it. So I'm going to capture it so I can remember it forever. And I don't really want to remember this exact interaction because for you, this is a great experience. But for me, it's discomfort. I don't really want to experience it. So I think that we should be gentle, you know, with our celebrities. I also think, you know, as a celebrity, I'm very sure that I'm very financially comfortable and I live a very, you know, blessed life that I am taking credit for, that I've created. But I also know that it's circumstantial in some way. I was born to, you know, already in the industry, which is something else I had for you of like. Like you becoming famous. I didn't become famous. I've been. I've only ever known fame since I was born.
- [29:47]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, interesting.
- [29:48]
Miley Cyrus
So, you know, like, when my dad was at his peak, I was just an infant, and actually I was in the womb going to my dad's concert. So before I even existed, I've known fame. And so I think that would be a big difference between you and I, or even, like, our physical response to fame is because I've been. It's. I'm bred to kind of be this person.
- [30:10]
Monica Lewinsky
I know you talked about, really, with your album, too, about wanting it to be healing and a vibration, you know, a certain vibration.
- [30:19]
Miley Cyrus
I love what you mentioned about frequencies, too. Just because that was really important for me in my music, that every word, every syllable, everything had a powerful and beautiful frequency. Even if that meant it was dark or ugly. Because, you know, our darkness, our shadows, our anger, all these, you know, negatives get kind of, like, damned in this way that they're not equally as. As beautiful. But I feel that, you know, these traumas in my life have only been the pressure that actually condensed it down so much that the stone could, you know, the diamond could appear so right. I've needed all that heat. Anything that I love usually requires heat, time, pressure, force. You know, I. Except glass. I'm really interested in glass. I love of, like, Murano or. I love glass because it's. It's soft and it's very fragile. But its process comes from something really intense and fiery. The way that something so delicate is created is so intense and so brutal.
- [31:19]
Monica Lewinsky
You know you've just described yourself, right?
- [31:21]
Miley Cyrus
Well, I hope so. I would love to be. My dream, actually, is for when I'm, like, much older. I'd like to have my own glass shop in.
- [31:30]
Monica Lewinsky
Have you. Do you know how to. Have you taken glass blowing?
- [31:33]
Miley Cyrus
I'm starting. My very sweet partner got me. My boyfriend, he got me glass blowing lessons for my birthday. So I'm supposed to start that as this next thing, you know, the album, as it starts to kind of grow up. It's gonna be an adult soon, so I've raised it. It's been my baby. Now it's in this, like, child state. And then it's gonna go off and do what it's gonna do without me, and then I'm gonna start taking my glass courses.
- [31:56]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, my birthday is July 23rd, so.
- [31:58]
Miley Cyrus
I expect I can make you a vase.
- [32:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Exactly. Thanks so much to Audible, our presenting sponsor. Craving your next adventure? It's waiting for you on Audible. Dive into heart racing thrills, vast adventures and enchanted worlds, all with just a tap. Each story is carefully crafted to keep you on the edge of your seat until the very last word. Only on Audible will you find exclusive originals that transport you to captivating dimensions. Be in the know with early access to highly anticipated releases and discover chart topping bestsellers that everyone's talking about, such as Freda McFadden's the boyfriend to Ashley Elston's the First Lie Wins. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat on Audible. Start your adventure today. Sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.comreclaiming that's audible.comreclaiming I'm thinking about with the, the Personas that you intentionally create as a, as a public.
- [33:04]
Miley Cyrus
Person, unintentionally that then became intentional.
- [33:06]
Monica Lewinsky
Right? Do they, I mean, it's like two. My brain's going two different places. So one place is kind of this, you know, do you ever feel trapped by them or. And then the other is kind of of when you change them. Is it, does it change the signal for change come from outside or does it come from inside?
- [33:28]
Miley Cyrus
So your first one was. What was your first one?
- [33:30]
Monica Lewinsky
You said if you've ever felt trapped.
- [33:32]
Miley Cyrus
Right? I felt trapped by them. Sometimes I do because I think I was nurtured the show's concept, literally the synopsis of the show was that Miley is a regular girl that, you know, she can't get a date and she has zoomed and, you know, she's just normal and that's not interesting. And no one, she's not special because she's regular. And then Hannah is like, she puts on this drag. You know, Hannah is like the tween drag queen. She puts on a wig and puts on her bedazzled jeans and she sings hit songs and suddenly she has thousands of people chasing her and wanting to take photos of her and every boy wants to date her. And so I don't know if that was completely healthy for as a young, impressionable girl to be, you know, every day. And absolutely did my writers, you know, they're teen comedy writers. They're not Dr. Amen. Dr. Amen might be sitting in the writers room going, I don't know if this is positive. Like, you shouldn't reinforce this to her every single day. Like, maybe Miley should get a date with a hotter guy than Hannah gets a date with, you know, Something that shows Miley she's more or as valuable as Hannah. So I think having that ingrained into my mind all day kind of made me, me create a character of myself, of, you know, the Miley that puts on the Hannah Persona is more valuable than the regular me. And so that's why maybe part of me doesn't like to take photos out with people when I'm not in that, that drag. Cuz I, you know, I don't really want to be judged for my T shirt and jeans, you know, if, and then your second one was is it.
- [35:07]
Monica Lewinsky
Intuitive to change something or do you or is it strategic? Like, oh, I, I, it's time to have a different.
- [35:13]
Miley Cyrus
It's personal. So it's something happens in my personal life that changes me and I need to express it in my public Persona, but I still want it to stay intimate and private to me.
- [35:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [35:26]
Miley Cyrus
So it's like saying something without saying something. It's almost like a signal, you know. And I think that the way that I look or the way that I like project is usually a sign of how I am mentally or emotionally. It usually is very obvious in the.
- [35:42]
Monica Lewinsky
Way that I, oh, interesting.
- [35:44]
Miley Cyrus
I present myself.
- [35:45]
Monica Lewinsky
I started to feel like a lot of emotion for you around what you were just saying about the Miley and Hannah and what you were taking in as a kid and that you clearly you've processed all of that now. But I just am feeling for you in terms of what that must have been like in the space between having it happen and being able to be where you are now with where you're aware of it.
- [36:11]
Miley Cyrus
Well, something I really liked that I had heard you speak about was that actually when everything is happening isn't when you actually feel your worst, it's after. Because when you're in it, you can't really feel anything at all because you're surviving and like your body is taking over and protecting you. So I didn't even notice when I was doing it that it was happening to me. It wasn't until I quit being Hannah Montana that I realized who and what she was. And I could look at both of the sides of the positive that she brought to me and the negatives that she brought to me. And so yeah, being on the show, I, I wasn't aware enough as a 14 year old to go like this is kind of not okay. This concept is probably not great for me personally. It's entertaining and it's a good show idea, but probably not great to nail into my impressionable mind that I'M unvaluable when I. And my name is Miley on the show.
- [36:58]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [36:59]
Miley Cyrus
So it's being actually taught to me.
- [37:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Right, Right. So double right.
- [37:02]
Miley Cyrus
It's not like a character where. Cause originally, Miley on the show, her name was Chloe. And in hindsight, I'm really glad that I changed it, because people feel like they got to know me by it being Miley. But it might have been mentally to go home and be like, but Miley can be anything. Miley's not on the page. Yeah, Chloe's on the page. And maybe boys don't like her or maybe she's less valuable, but Miley has potential to be absolutely anything. Cause that's a blank page for me to write. But instead, my story was being written for me every week. And then scripts became newspapers and magazines and magazines became social media. And so, in a way, my life has always kind of been written for me, which is why I had to become friends. Firm.
- [37:43]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [37:43]
Miley Cyrus
You know.
- [37:44]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [37:44]
Miley Cyrus
So I don't read something that's said about me and identify that or identify with that. You were talking about cartoons when. When the newspapers would draw cartoons of you. And I had a similar situation with me in the beginning. It was, you know, I used to get. I'm old enough and in this industry long enough. I used to get cartoons done of me, too. But now they're memes.
- [38:05]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [38:05]
Miley Cyrus
And so I've had enough memes of me that, you know, there was a couple that were about my body that was in 2013, and people were putting my head on, you know, different, very unattractive things. And I still see that when I put on a bathing suit to this day, I wear very. You would never think very modest bathing suits. And we actually just went on a trip. Me, it was a whole girls trip. And everyone else had on a string bikini except me. I was in, like, shorts, you know, I wore. I don't even know if people wear tan Kinis anymore. I was wearing, like, a tank top. Like an old lady.
- [38:40]
Monica Lewinsky
Bringing them back.
- [38:40]
Miley Cyrus
I was trying to bring back. And my sister goes, you know, know you're you. So this is cool. Like, I guess this is in. Now you're making this cool. But, like, you know, this is what, like a grandma wears to the beach. Like, this is not. And it just hit me, like, oh, I'm still so insecure about those memes about my body.
- [38:59]
Monica Lewinsky
I mean, I. I understand that, and I. I feel that, you know, people, when they're behind a screen, they tend to disconnect from the Fact that what they're saying or seeing is actually about another human being. And I, I really.
- [39:15]
Miley Cyrus
That makes complete sense.
- [39:16]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. It just is like I, I get that I have a list of whenever I get my photo taken, I have like a pre done list of like okay, here are all the things that I need to make sure.
- [39:27]
Miley Cyrus
Right.
- [39:27]
Monica Lewinsky
For, for Photoshop, you know, clean this.
- [39:29]
Miley Cyrus
The chin, the eyes, the waist. Exactly. Someone said at some point your waist, your eyes, your, you know.
- [39:35]
Monica Lewinsky
Or for me it's sort of a, you know, might be like oh, making if I have blue on, making sure it's clean.
- [39:41]
Miley Cyrus
Right.
- [39:42]
Monica Lewinsky
Making sure there's not a speck of.
- [39:43]
Miley Cyrus
Dust keeping your skirt longer or any those things.
- [39:46]
Monica Lewinsky
All of those things. It just is. I think that it's hard for people to understand that it, it impacts a public person in the same way if you were having a conversation face to face, if you were saying this to someone, you know. Right. Which people wouldn't.
- [40:02]
Miley Cyrus
Right. Ever.
- [40:03]
Monica Lewinsky
Like no.
- [40:04]
Miley Cyrus
No.
- [40:05]
Monica Lewinsky
Ever. I mean we, we are our meanest to ourselves. Right. But then it's just the kinds of things that people will say online are.
- [40:14]
Miley Cyrus
You wouldn't really have the courage totally to say in person because I think it's a courage thing as well. It, you get this confidence and this courage because you are protected by the screen. And for me in the dayto day it's like I don't want to be that on like the courage that it takes, you know, that heart pounding, that adrenaline of like I'm going to have to fight for myself right now. And so I'm glad that people stay behind their computers and they don't say it to my face. I'd rather that. But it's still equally as hurtful.
- [40:40]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I actually it's. I did this anti bullying campaign a few years ago and so I had to think about in the course of it, it was like about online offline behavior, being an upstander in this whole thing. And so I had to think about, you know, the in person experiences I've had of somebody being rude to me and they were a lot less right than, than I think people would have imagined. You know, we were talking about humor in the beginning and so I use, I mean aside from Gallo's humor that kind of helped me and my family get through 98. I use humor sometimes to, or being self deprecating to kind of make people feel comfortable or I don't have to do it as much anymore. But for a long time I would use it to make the joke.
- [41:26]
Miley Cyrus
Right. So they couldn't.
- [41:27]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. So that it's like, oh, you're laughing with me, not at me.
- [41:30]
Miley Cyrus
Yeah, absolutely.
- [41:30]
Monica Lewinsky
Kind of a thing.
- [41:31]
Miley Cyrus
I totally get that. Something that really kind of touched me as you were speaking about, someone had said, could you imagine bringing Monica Lewinsky home to meet your family? Yeah. Trace Brothers and I have had a lot of experiences like that. That. Because I actually wrote a song on my last album called Wild Card about that, and it says, like, do you want to play house? I could be your wife. Like, could you imagine taking me home to your mom in a dress this tight? And it was like. Because that's how I. My public Persona has been revealing throughout my career. Now I'm, you know, in my 30s and I dress differently. And I hope that I have more, you know, present myself in a more mature and sophisticated way. But I, you know, one time I had gold teeth and was like wearing a thong. And I wore a thong too, honey. Had a thong, had my gold. And I was like, could you imagine how many twerking jokes have probably already been made? You know, or you're really gonna bring the girl that sticks her tongue out home to meet your mom. And I, I hated meeting people's family because I would think that the mom had probably already decided that I wasn't good enough for her son.
- [42:39]
Monica Lewinsky
I get that.
- [42:40]
Miley Cyrus
You know, and so I was always, again, like you said, kind of self deprecating at these dinners or make it obvious so it doesn't become awkward or become that unspoken elephant. I would just be me in the room, but I would always either decide, am I going to show up as me or am I going to try to, you know, take all my jewelry off and wear a sweatshirt that's really big so you can't see my body at all, or wear baggy clothes so you can't see me. And that was hard. And until, you know, this kind of past relationship and I just. I really just. I think being older, I was able to start it in a different place with already having those boundaries and feeling more comfortable with myself. So it was less awkward. Cause again, like you said, it's usually us. Like, I'm bringing half of it into the room. But it was definitely a thing meeting people's parents. I felt really embarrassed for a long time. Oh, yeah.
- [43:28]
Monica Lewinsky
I'm like, I would have put little Miley on my lap and just stroke your hair. You know, it's.
- [43:34]
Miley Cyrus
It's hard.
- [43:34]
Monica Lewinsky
At 51, I am still working on trying to integrate the idea of just this. I think the shame I experienced of certain, like, certain behaviors that a lot of people would have engaged in and certain behaviors that maybe some wouldn't have, but that the process of them becoming public or my, you know, heinous high school album with the bangs up to here or whatever stupid thing I might have said on the Linda trip tapes, all those things. Like, I still feel like I have to work to integrate them because I, you know, I totally related with your snl like Hannah Montana's dead, right? I'm like, I get, I get this.
- [44:13]
Miley Cyrus
Idea of, I mean, I relate to what you said too because it's like, like you said about your tapes and not knowing you're being filmed. That happened to me with a bong video when I was 16.
- [44:21]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, wow.
- [44:21]
Miley Cyrus
And it cost me a very large multi, multi million dollar Walmart deal. And I actually, this is to, to use the humor, this will make it fun. I had to email the Walmart CEO an apology and smoking weed, which most 16 year olds do. But my email address at the time was Miley loves weed. And I had to tell them, which it actually wasn't weed. It really was salvia. But I needed to write to him, I'm sorry for smoking weed. And my mom's like, so here's his email. She goes, what the hell? What's your email? Milo's weed. You have to change that. And he was old. So I changed my email to Miley loves old people and sent him the email.
- [45:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Still didn't help.
- [45:00]
Miley Cyrus
It didn't help very much. I still got fired from Walmart. But these things that, you know, to really have a degree, adults firing a teenager for smoking pot, which you know that when they were 16 or 17 they smoked some weed. Now the difference is I didn't know I was being filmed. And not only did I know, I might have known someone was filming and not cared because I was high on salvia. But I didn't know that my camera would then get stolen at a teen party because that's how it got leaked was I got my backpack stolen at a party. So it's like, you know, that embarrassment of knowing at that time, like, okay, I didn't get any calls from any big companies for movies and I, as a joke, got my boyfriend a penis cake for his birthday and I got fired. I was the lead actress in Hotel Transylvania and they fired me and replaced me because I had made an inappropriate adult joke. But I was 18. So yes, I was fine to work in a kid's movie, but I'm not a kid.
- [45:57]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, you know, that could happen.
- [46:00]
Miley Cyrus
I don't know if that could happen today. I mean, I don't know if we put our Disney kids on the pedestal the way that we used to, you know, our teen stars. I mean, I feel like I don't know much history about what anyone says or does, but I think that still movies can have consequences for their lead actor or actress doing things that don't align with the audience that the movie is made for. Cuz what felt ridiculous to me about getting fired from a penis cake was, was that they sell penis cakes. Like for all bachelorettes. Like in Nashville, Tennessee you can get penis cakes. Like that's, you know, it's not that big of a deal. So I thought, you know, this is like a very simple, not vulgar joke. This is silly. And you can do this. For all bachelorette parties, they make necklaces and cups and straws and all kinds of stuff.
- [46:47]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [46:48]
Miley Cyrus
So it felt ridiculous. But to be fired, you know, for regular things that, like girls my age, they go to bachelorette parties and they do this, they go to like Magic Mike shows. But if I was at, at that time, you know, I wasn't someone that was appropriate for kids, even though that was in my personal life. And that photo again, only revealed itself because the camera had been stolen.
- [47:10]
Monica Lewinsky
Right, right, right.
- [47:11]
Miley Cyrus
You know, nothing I posted. It's not like I was out there.
- [47:14]
Monica Lewinsky
Like you were responsible in your private behavior.
- [47:16]
Miley Cyrus
In my private behavior, I was at a private event at a private party and I got robbed.
- [47:22]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. You know what the.
- [47:23]
Miley Cyrus
Yeah, it's not cool.
- [47:24]
Monica Lewinsky
No, no. I'm wondering, I think you were probably the biggest Disney child star. Right.
- [47:32]
Miley Cyrus
Okay, you said it.
- [47:33]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I said it. So did you feel a responsibility in a way that you have this mantle to carry in a way, and did you feel that as a responsibility?
- [47:46]
Miley Cyrus
Responses and the repercussions of my actions, but during my actions, I didn't feel it so much. Like there wasn't so much of a time where, where I'm like, you know, going through the steps to make the penis cake and going, probably shouldn't be doing this. Disney's gonna be upset. I might have been like, you know, I'm not gonna invite my mom to this party. But like, I didn't think about it becoming a public moment because in my private time I felt really safe to be the way that I, a regular 18 year old would be. But I felt it in the repercussions. And something else I had heard you say was when you were talking about just like existing after that and just going, man, I have a long life to be in this character that I'm not sure I want to be in anymore. And when that happened to me, it sounds silly now, you know, to go, I'm older and like I got fired for a penis cake. Hahaha. But at the moment, at the time, I remember I jumped in the pool and I said I'm not going to come up until you guys get me my job back. And I mean it was really upsetting me. And I was with my lawyer and my manager at the time and they were both freaking out because they didn't realize how much it had hurt me until that moment when they realized I had said what I said. And that's when Dr. Amen came into my life. Life, you know, not exactly that experience but that year when I became, I think I was 18, the year that I met Dr. Amon. And it was moments like those where he could help me work through those types of things. So I didn't want to go underwater and not come back up.
- [49:11]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [49:11]
Miley Cyrus
You know, those moments are real for me and now they're funny. But they definitely weren't funny then.
- [49:15]
Monica Lewinsky
No, of course not. Of course not. I think too there's. Anybody who spends five minutes with you can feel that there is something such a. Like a soft sweetness to you inside.
- [49:27]
Miley Cyrus
Glad you see that.
- [49:28]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. I think the thing is, is that it's. When you're saying those people were surprised, it's like because they're not looking deeper.
- [49:37]
Miley Cyrus
Right.
- [49:38]
Monica Lewinsky
They're not seeing and they're not even have that layer of you.
- [49:41]
Miley Cyrus
I had to realize that I can't hate them or resent them for not seeing that because I don't think they have that mode.
- [49:47]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [49:47]
Miley Cyrus
I have that mode. You know, when I, I just like now as an adult I would just never fire a child for smoking the bong, you know, a 16 year old.
- [49:57]
Monica Lewinsky
I heard read something and so it was interesting to me because it actually you made my job really easy. I think where you were talking about that you reclaimed your love of performing and music by setting up these private performances at the Chateau and Chateau Marmont. And that it was connected to a big thing that had happened and it.
- [50:20]
Miley Cyrus
Was rewriting all those traumas that had stored themselves in my cells and made me physically ill. So now, now instead of the last show that I played, I guess it was maybe over three years ago, large crowd was 250000 people. And since then I have never done that again because it was so disturbing to my Body and to every. The holistic version of me. And Now I play 250 max. And as I wait.
- [50:46]
Monica Lewinsky
250, 000 max.
- [50:47]
Miley Cyrus
No, 250 people. People only.
- [50:49]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [50:49]
Miley Cyrus
250 thousand I took. Because I was like, that's gone. I took all the zeros out and threw them away.
- [50:53]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [50:53]
Miley Cyrus
I only do 250 max. That's like a full room. A show that I have coming up, I think we might have 100 people. And then another one I'm doing only holds a room of 80. So I do very minimal shows. And they actually become more meaningful for the crowd, too.
- [51:08]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [51:08]
Miley Cyrus
And because of the lovely Internet, they go just as far, you know. No, they're just the same.
- [51:13]
Monica Lewinsky
I also. P.S. like, love Chateau Marmont.
- [51:15]
Miley Cyrus
Me too. And, like, who doesn't want to be in a beautiful place singing beautiful music with, you know, people that you can see and connect to and then also just the physical danger of playing 250,000 people. The show that I was doing, it was out of the country. And the amount of security that I had, you know, all with guns standing at the bottom of the stage and up on the ceilings and. Yeah, I guess they needed them. You know, you're in a crowd of 250,000, they can't personally check everybody. You know, you don't know who's in the crowd and who. Who has strong feelings towards me. I'm a pretty, like, divisive figure in some ways because of my opinions and, you know, just. I think my stance is a kind of a feminist and, you know, just my views, my political views in general. So I would say I'm kind of a divisive, controversial person, and so I need that amount of security. But I'm like, I don't really want to be anywhere that I need this much protection, and I kind of saw myself as a bullseye, and I just didn't want to be there anymore.
- [52:08]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, makes sense.
- [52:09]
Miley Cyrus
Yeah. Makes absolute, total, reasonable, logical sense.
- [52:13]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes.
- [52:13]
Miley Cyrus
You know, 100%. 100%. So that's where the shame and guilt can kind of like, you know, take a hike because you're just like. That makes perfect sense. You listen to what I'm saying. It's not about me not appreciating the fans, you know, me abandoning my. This is not about you. That's your lens. This is about my safety, and I'm building myself.
- [52:33]
Monica Lewinsky
And you're allowed to evolve. I think that's, you know, the word reinvention is used a lot, I think, with. With a lot of women performers, you know, icons, pop icon music icons of. And have a real allergic reaction to the word reinvention, so. Because I think it implies. Implies that what was there before wasn't good enough.
- [52:54]
Miley Cyrus
Right.
- [52:54]
Monica Lewinsky
And so, like an upgrade. Yeah, yeah. And that it's sort of instead of this idea of evolving in an evolution that I think we're. We're all allowed in. Especially when you're a young person, I mean, that's all that happens is you make mistakes, you try and learn who you are, you make mistakes, you discover certain things about yourself that. Some things that stay with you for life and some that. That go away. It's.
- [53:21]
Miley Cyrus
Reclaiming is a great word for everything that we've discussed. And I think it's, you know, again, just the frequency of something attracts you or repels you. And I think you titling your podcast reclaiming immediately is a. A gracious invitation to let people feel safe to do it. If it was called interrogation or, you know, you're like, okay, but. Because when we call things certain things, they. They're potent. That's why something beautiful was so important to me.
- [53:48]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. I printed out this quote that you have about your. About something beautiful that the producers and I were just talking about for hours. I mean, not hours, but for a long time. And so I didn't know if you wanted to read it.
- [53:59]
Miley Cyrus
Sure. Because you're probably what it is.
- [54:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Read it better than I will.
- [54:03]
Miley Cyrus
It might be like an op Ed that I had. Let's see. It was important for me that every song. Song has these healing sound properties. The songs, whether they're about destruction or heartbreak or death, they're presented in a way that's beautiful because the nastiest times of our life do have a point of beauty. They are the shadow, they are the charcoal. They are the shading. You can't have a painting without highlights and contrast. I still believe this.
- [54:28]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. So beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. And it's. I just. I loved that, you know, you sort of talked about this. This visual album. So we'll also be just a. Do they. They make regular albums still?
- [54:42]
Miley Cyrus
Yeah, I make a vinyl.
- [54:43]
Monica Lewinsky
I have a vinyl for everybody to know. What?
- [54:46]
Miley Cyrus
I'm doing old school things. Because I like old school things. I'm even doing a vinyl signing, which people are like, they don't really want a CD or an autograph, but I want to give them both, so.
- [54:53]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [54:54]
Miley Cyrus
But I feel that out of everyone I've seen that you've spoken to, I do feel like, in a way, you and I are kind of more paralleled than anyone I've seen you sit with. Specifically only because of the age. Um, because when you were talking about being 18 and who you were and then being 24, and then in that, like, very pivotal, important time of a young woman's life of, like, becoming 25 and that being so much stress and what that's doing to, you know, your physical, mental, emotional, It's. It's destroying all these parts of you. And, you know, I had written down that. That my 2013 is your 1998, because that was the time where I just got. Just hit so hard, and I was so embarrassed. And you were mentioning your family, too. I mean, there was even a time where my brother and sister didn't want to go to school because of how humiliated they were to be related to me. And I remember even, you know, my brother at one point, he was saying, I don't judge you, but you could understand how hard it is for me to go to school and you be my sister. Yeah. And that really, you know, I was a hard sibling to have as a little girl. So I was like, all right, we're even. Like, you know. But it was really hard for me in 2013, and I. I lost everything during that time in my personal life because of the choices I was making professionally. You know, if I kept dressing or acting a certain way, my relationships fell apart. No one wanted to d me because they didn't want to be with a woman. That sexual expression part was not for them. It was, like, shared with the world. So, like, guys, when I would try to date when I was dating or who I was engaged at the time, that didn't work out because I was sharing a part of myself that men wanted to be saved for them only. And the fact that I would, you know, pose nude or dance in very little clothes or show my body was making them feel like I was taking something away that was meant to be for them. So I would have really hard times dating. And it was just. It was really hard. It was really hard for me to go home and see my dad and, like, look him in the eyes and not feel super embarrassed. You know, same thing. My grandmother was, like, my best. My grandmother is my best friend. She's dead, but she's still my best friend. And I was like, oh, God, this is gonna kill her. You know, because my grandma is like. Again, you talked about your mom? My grandma grew up in an age of, like. It was super. I mean, she. She was in an abusive relationship for half of her life and wouldn't have left, you know, just because that wouldn't be the right thing to do as.
- [57:32]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [57:33]
Miley Cyrus
So. Yeah. So having that and going home and seeing my grandparents was just mortifying, you know, or Thanksgiving.
- [57:39]
Monica Lewinsky
I felt that way when the Star Report came out where it was just like it had been bad enough with men in general, but in particular my dad and my brother and my stepdad of, you know, just that all these things were out there and my dad's a doctor and he still went to work every day and my brother was in college.
- [58:00]
Miley Cyrus
It's just hard.
- [58:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Yeah. I still. I don't know how you feel. I still feel guilt. I. I still sometimes carry guilt around about that.
- [58:09]
Miley Cyrus
I did EMDR about guilt and shame and it kind of deleted some of that stuff.
- [58:14]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, that's interesting. I've got. During COVID I bought a bar in my. So I can do it with my therapist over zoom.
- [58:21]
Miley Cyrus
Right.
- [58:22]
Monica Lewinsky
So which is great.
- [58:23]
Miley Cyrus
It changed me. I mean, I did two sessions and I feel like it kind of deleted the. The. A folder of my mind that. The guilt and shame folder. So I haven't really dealt with that for probably about four years. But up until I did that emdr, I had a lot of guilt about how hard it would have been to be my sibling or my parent and how embarrassing and, you know, all those things. So I definitely feel, you know, our experiences were different, but they were parallel in a lot of ways.
- [58:50]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. Well. And I think what's interesting too is that there's an undercurrent of sex.
- [58:57]
Miley Cyrus
Right.
- [58:57]
Monica Lewinsky
So you're talking about men thinking that they own you. That's. I think that's. That's going too far.
- [59:02]
Miley Cyrus
Right.
- [59:03]
Monica Lewinsky
But that your sexuality is supposed to be just for them.
- [59:07]
Miley Cyrus
Right.
- [59:07]
Monica Lewinsky
And I think in my case, it was a sort of sexuality that was never supposed to be public.
- [59:13]
Miley Cyrus
Right. The big difference between what I'm expressing. But I think for me, I was coming from Disney, so in my way too, it was never a strategic of I'm gonna shed the skin. But it was only so dramatic and, and so shocking for people. What I did wasn't shocking. It was who I was that was shocking.
- [59:30]
Monica Lewinsky
Uh huh. Right.
- [59:31]
Miley Cyrus
Like if you imagine, you know, a couple years ago, like wap.
- [59:37]
Monica Lewinsky
Wait, I don't know what it's about.
- [59:39]
Miley Cyrus
Are we telling Monica Lewinsky what WAP is about? I tell her guys I'm a loser. Do I tell her it stands for Wet ass pussy?
- [59:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [59:47]
Miley Cyrus
Okay. And it got performed at the Grammys. I dressed as a Ted Teddy bear and got Shamed. But Cardi B Isn't a. Isn't for kids. She's not a child star. So when you think about someone like that, you know, like, for me, it was so hard to go, but, like, why is Rihanna not in trouble? Or why is like, you know, why are these other girls not in trouble the way that I am? And that's because I'm a kid. I'm thinking I'm in trouble. You know, it's like the principal.
- [60:16]
Monica Lewinsky
Right, Exactly.
- [60:17]
Miley Cyrus
And so I'm going, why? Why am I in trouble? But it was because I was a kid star. So it's like the baby sitter went. Went rogue.
- [60:25]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [60:25]
Miley Cyrus
I was like a babysitter for America's children. You know, you. You put them in front of the screen. You know, if they're watching my show, they're going to be good. I'm not going to say anything inappropriate. You feel safe with them spending time with me. And that's when people felt like I wasn't a safe place for their kids anymore. God, it was a lot. Yeah, Yeah.
- [60:43]
Monica Lewinsky
I didn't realize that in the way that I feel it talking to you, you know.
- [60:49]
Miley Cyrus
Well, that's when the petition happened to get me banned, which actually meant to, like, sabotage my career, because if I was banned for television, from television, that's my entire livelihood. So now it's like, what you were saying about, like, okay, well, what's my future if I am wearing this badge of, like, shame for the rest of my life? Not only shame, but, like, people have just given me the. You're out. So to bring it in with this album, that's something that was really. Not only am I, you know, I'm clearing. This album is really about healing. I've talked about it a lot. This album is. Has healed me in many ways, but it really is about healing. And sometimes that can be in the simplest or, like, deepest of ways. You know, there's a song I have on the album with Naomi Campbell that's just Healing, because it's awesome. Okay, that. That's just awesome. That's just iconic. Like, that's what it is. And it's healing to me, too, because, you know, to work with her, because I think she had a Persona and kind of like a, you know, an idea surrounding her that she's mean, that she, you know, all women, like, in this industry, we. We just get kind of labeled all women, period. Right. Get labeled, period. Yes. Yeah. So working with her and having her, you know, fashion such an important part of this album, and having her like validate what I'm doing in the fashion space or having Britney Howard, which there's not a more legitimate artist, I don't think out there in like mock music than Brittany Howard is just like a multi instrumentalist. And as a singer and a writer, she is the best of the best, top tier. And so having her go, you're a real artist. Even though you do pop music and you wear different outfits than the girls in her genre, it's like you're still a real artist. And so a lot of those kind of queens passing their. This throne to me healed me a lot and cleaned it up. But then certain songs like into the World or Something Beautiful or Give Me Love are actually like embedded with sound healing for real. Like Give Me Love has lots of crystals, a crystal bashe. There's sound healing properties within the. The compositions that.
- [62:56]
Monica Lewinsky
That is amazing. I have a trauma psychiatrist and a somatic therapist and a friend of piss. But the main healing of my soul has been a nonverbal sound sound work.
- [63:07]
Miley Cyrus
That's amazing. Yeah, that's really special part of. Yeah you. Because not everybody can receive sound like that, you know, because I think a lot of people could judge. You know, the bowl comes out and someone goes, yeah. They're like, my mom would already be like, this is. I'm not doing this right.
- [63:22]
Monica Lewinsky
I, you know, it was really interesting. The first session I had, I came home and I was like, I don't know how to explain this, but my soul knows I need to do it right. And I. That was in 2007 and I still am doing the same work. Yeah, I'm so grateful. Grateful for it. So the question I ask everybody at the end is, are you reclaiming in the process of reclaiming anything right now, that is. It could be an idea, a thing, a person. It could be anything.
- [63:55]
Miley Cyrus
Oh, you know me. That's like a tangent. So let me try to whittle it, girl.
- [63:59]
Monica Lewinsky
I am here for your tangent. I'm the queen of. Or give me a voicemail. Oh, wow.
- [64:05]
Miley Cyrus
Yeah. I come in with like the 4 minute 40 second. Like that's a short for me. Yeah. Okay. So am I reclaiming anything at this moment? It's kind of on its way and I am, as much as I am kind of a. In nature, there's a part of me that's a very kind of free spirited person. But now as speaking with me, you see that I'm also a little too aware and I've probably done a little too much work to be quite as free spirited. As I once was. Because I. I think some amount of awareness and anxiety is healthy because it keeps us safe. You know, this album, for me, this is not in any way a retirement or a goodbye, but it is the last lap. I call it the last lap around the sun. In this particular way, this album is my newborn and it's kind of keeping me up all night and it's exhausting. And I am really grateful for this record. It's worth it for me to put this much into this creation because, by the way, I already have. I've been working on this album for two years. I've already put so much that this last little stretch. The album is beautiful. Has its own legs. Now I can set it free to become someone else.
- [65:34]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [65:34]
Miley Cyrus
You know, but in this particular way, the amount of commitment that I've put into this particular creative child, I don't know when I'll be ready to put this much pressure on myself about something in one thing in particular. Again, I think this is my 10th album. My fans will correct me, but I've made a lot of albums and I've done albums as myself. I've done albums as a band. I've done albums as Hannah.
- [66:04]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [66:05]
Miley Cyrus
I've. I've just made so much music and that I don't see leaving. That's something that every day, I can't help myself but to create it. But I don't know if I'll ever do it in this particular way. Of the amount of pressure that I've given myself for this particular album, I wanted to do something thoroughly and leave no stone unturned. And so that's why not only did I get myself, making an album's already a lot.
- [66:30]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [66:30]
Miley Cyrus
Then I made it into a film, and now I make it into this, like, kind of fashion statement and this, you know, attempt to medicate a sick culture through, like, healing properties in pop music. I don't know when I'll put myself in that position again. So I'm kind of reclaiming what music that Dividing what is the music versus this part.
- [66:53]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [66:53]
Miley Cyrus
The talking about it, the promoting it, the fueling it, you know, I just kind of want to make it and release it next time.
- [67:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Miley, thank you so much.
- [67:03]
Miley Cyrus
Thank you. Monica, thank you so much.
- [67:05]
Monica Lewinsky
Thank you for coming and being here and being open and all the things. This was.
- [67:10]
Miley Cyrus
I really enjoyed it.
- [67:11]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, good. This is a heart delight.
- [67:13]
Miley Cyrus
Thank you. Thank you very much.
- [67:17]
Monica Lewinsky
Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky Production Services by wtf Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis. For Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez, Wren and Emily Feldbrake, and executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.