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- [00:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Hi guys, it's Monica. In today's episode I spoke with my soulful friend Molly Ringwald. We met back in 1999 through mutual friend who just happened to be the inspiration for one of the most iconic characters of the 80s, Ducky from Pretty in Pink. You may know her from her other work too, the Breakfast Club, Sixteen Candles, or more recently Ryan Murphy's feud, Capote vs. The Swans. And while I've known Molly for 25 years, I had never actually talked to her about being catapulted into fame at such a young age. And so as someone who became well known overnight, unintentionally, I was interested to talk to Molly about how she navigated becoming a superstar after acting in a string of coming of age films. Anyway, I hope you find something to connect to in our conversation and thanks for joining us on Reclaiming. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Audible. Visit audible.comreclaiming to find your next listen. Thank you to our sponsor, Reformation. Visit reformation.com to see why they're my go to for stylish and sustainable fashion. Thank you so much for doing this. Welcome to Reclaiming.
- [01:44]
Molly Ringwald
Thank you. So happy to be here.
- [01:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Aw, thanks Molly. It's funny because I was thinking about how on the way over that we were doing this in New York and how if we were in LA I would have worn my Molly shoes because I don't think you know that every time I see you I like copy some outfit thing that you have some aspect. And I bought these red heeled espadrilles a few years ago because I remembered you wearing heeled espadrilles with jeans and a cute top somewhere and I was like, that's so cute. It looks so cute. And I've only worn the shoes once though I had no idea what wearing.
- [02:22]
Molly Ringwald
Are they not comfortable?
- [02:24]
Monica Lewinsky
No, they are. I just, I think I. They're sort of, you know, those items that you put them on and you're like, yeah, not today. Yeah, so it's, it's sort of that.
- [02:32]
Molly Ringwald
I have many of those that just stay in my closet and I can't get rid of them because I think they're fantastic. But every time I put them on. Not today.
- [02:41]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, especially that I find that happens a lot with vintage pieces and I know you have a lot of vintage stuff so you know, I Didn't know it at the time, but it turns out that when I was five, I saw you in Annie.
- [02:56]
Molly Ringwald
No way.
- [02:57]
Monica Lewinsky
It was, like, seared in my mind because it was actually the first time I went to a proper theater to see a musical or play.
- [03:05]
Molly Ringwald
Who took you?
- [03:06]
Monica Lewinsky
My mom. My mom. And so my dad took me to see the movie version. Which. Were you also in the movie?
- [03:12]
Molly Ringwald
I was not.
- [03:13]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [03:13]
Molly Ringwald
I had already aged out by then.
- [03:17]
Monica Lewinsky
Aged out of, like, being a young person. And so it was. You know, it was interesting because that was seared in my mind. And then a few years later, I remembered seeing you on Facts of Life. And then when Sixteen Candles came out, it was, oh, it's the girl from Facts of Life. Which. And I know you weren't always on, but you had such a presence, and you had it from such a young age. And sort of. I felt like you brought this sense of depth. Like you just exemplified someone who was a layered person and had a lot of depth. And so I made that connection and then, of course, watched all the John Hughes films six bajillion times. So in many ways, I felt kind of like I grew up with you.
- [04:06]
Molly Ringwald
Well, you did.
- [04:07]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [04:08]
Molly Ringwald
I mean, you know, every one of our generation did and even generations beyond. Because those movies that I did are such touchstones, you know, and there hasn't been a lot of. I mean, I haven't really seen a lot of projects that have managed to say what those movies said in the way that they said them yet. I mean, you know, there was Freaks and Geeks, which I think was great. And, you know, I don't know, but there's just something about those movies that just sort of, you know, have spoken to generations and everybody that, you know, that's going through that in high school, you know, kids are gonna still be bullied, and they're still going to feel out of place. And. And those movies just kind of. Particularly the Breakfast Club, even though they're flawed, which I've written extensively about.
- [05:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Written very well.
- [05:02]
Molly Ringwald
Thank you.
- [05:03]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. No, but it's interesting because we then met in 1999 through. I guess it was like.
- [05:12]
Molly Ringwald
Well, through that.
- [05:14]
Monica Lewinsky
Which turns out Ducky was sort of based. Is that true?
- [05:17]
Molly Ringwald
That is true.
- [05:18]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my gosh. Okay.
- [05:20]
Molly Ringwald
It was based on Matt because Matt came to. Matt's been my best friend since I was, I think, 10 years old. Since my family moved from Sacramento to Los Angeles. And he was one of my. You know, I was still an Annie when we became friends. And then when I went to high school, or junior high, actually, or middle school, but we called it junior high. I was in the seventh grade and Matt was in the ninth grade. And that's really sort of when we became friends and. And went steady. Although Matt is and has always been gay, but he wasn't out at that time.
- [05:58]
Monica Lewinsky
Your best dressed boyfriend?
- [05:59]
Molly Ringwald
Yes, yes. But, yeah, so he. Which is one of the reasons why I always say that Ducky's gay, because he was based on Matt. Matt came to visit me while I was filming the Breakfast Club. And John Hughes had taken us. He would always take us kids. Me, Michael Anthony, Michael hall, and to Kingston Mines, which is an old. Which I think is still there, you know, to see Junior Wells, these great blues performers. Anyway, there was this band and they were playing rollover Beethoven. And it was this. And I was dancing with Matt, but it was this extended version that went on for 20 minutes. And Matt kept saying, like, can we stop? And I was like, no, no, no. It was like a pride thing. We had to dance all the way through. And then based on the interaction of me and Matt on the dance floor, that's what made John write Pretty in Pink.
- [06:51]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my God.
- [06:52]
Molly Ringwald
And that character. Yeah.
- [06:53]
Monica Lewinsky
Wow. And he also wrote 16 candles based on. Is it like just seeing your headshot?
- [07:01]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah, he wrote that just based on a headshot. He had moved agencies briefly from CAA to icm, which I believe is one agent. I mean, they buy him now, but at the time they were very separate. And. Yeah. And as a new client, they gave him headshots of all their clients. And I was. Yeah, I was at ICM after my first movie, which was Tempest. And over Fourth of July weekend, he put that up on his bulletin board above his computer station. Cause he was an early adopter computer. And. Yeah, it was. And he wrote this movie. And so when it came time to cast it, and they said, you know, who do you want? He said, the girl that I wrote this about. And so we met. And.
- [07:51]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, that's an extraordinary story.
- [07:54]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah, I mean, it's pretty wild.
- [07:57]
Monica Lewinsky
And did you know that at the time, like, going into the film, were you aware of that? Of just sort of the impact that you had on someone as a museum, like, to be that young and you inspired this entire film.
- [08:12]
Molly Ringwald
I guess. I mean, he did tell me the story when we first met. I met him. You know, originally he had written the Breakfast Club and then he wrote Sixteen Candles after. In fact, he was in the middle of casting the Breakfast Club locally in Chicago with local Chicago actors. In fact, John Cusack was going to play John Bender and Joan Cusack was going to play Allison and I don't know who the other people that were cast. And then he wrote Sixteen Candles and then gave it to the studio, and the studio loved it and decided to do that first. And then at the end of Sixteen Candles, he asked me and Anthony Michael hall to be in the Breakfast Club. So in terms of did I know that, I was amused. I mean, he told me that story. But, you know, when you're that age, I mean, I had nothing really to compare it to. I hadn't done. I mean, I'd done more movies actually than John had at that point.
- [09:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my. Are you.
- [09:17]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah, because Sixteen Candles was his directorial debut. He wrote Mr. Mom, he wrote Vacation, but he didn't direct those movies. So I had done a few movies. I did Tempest, I did, you know, the Great Space Hunter, Adventures in the forbidden zone in 3D, and then I did a couple of other things. So, I mean, I had actually had more experience, but I was still only 15 years old, so I didn't have a lot of life experience. And so I didn't have a lot to, you know, it didn't seem that strange to me. I mean, now it does, right?
- [09:53]
Monica Lewinsky
Like strange still complementary or strange weird, creepy in any way?
- [10:02]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah, it's peculiar, it's complimentary. I mean, it always felt incredibly complimentary. But yeah, looking back on it, there was something a little peculiar.
- [10:16]
Monica Lewinsky
It's interesting to become, I found for me in my experiences to sort of reach an age that other people were at when they were doing certain things. And you just think, in a million fucking years, I would never, like, I wouldn't want to have a relationship with a 24 year old or 22 year old, you know, or, you know, it's sort of that idea of writing something and you think about the things that are in Sixteen Candles and when you look at it as an adult through the prism of someone staring at your photo. Yeah. So, I mean, look, I know he's such an important person in your life, and so I want to disparage.
- [10:59]
Molly Ringwald
It's definitely complex. And I'm all, you know, and it's something that I turn over in my head a lot and try to figure out how that all affected me. And I still have. I feel like I'm still processing all of that and I probably will until the day I die.
- [11:22]
Monica Lewinsky
Knowing we were chatting, I was thinking about when we met and how it had actually only been a year since I have become a public person. And like my Experience had been so weird of going to bed one night with only a few thousand people ever having met me and knowing me and then waking up, and it's. You know, I'm all of a sudden a public person. And so this entry into public life was really different than most people's. But you were so young, and so I just. When did you realize you were famous? And, like, did you. And what did that mean to you? And did you know of other famous people and then connected that you were one of them, or did you.
- [12:10]
Molly Ringwald
You know, I think that I have had sort of varying degrees of fame my entire life, you know, because I've been a performer since I was three. I mean, literally since I was three years old. I was on stage with my father, singing with my father, and then also acting. My first play was the Grass Harp, which was written by Truma Capote. Wow. As a matter of fact, yeah, I didn't have any lines. I just toddled on stage. You know, when you do community theater, when you perform on stage, you sort of become like a celebrity. So I was a celebrity in, you know, in my small town, in a way, you know, I was sort of, you know, I was known as the world's youngest jazz singer, you know, or that was what they wrote about. So I was written about. And, you know, it was a sort of fame, a degree of fame, you know, and then it was sort of like, I. Everything that I did, I sort of became, like, a little bit more well known, you know, you moved to Los Angeles, and then, of course, nobody knew who I was until I started to do stuff. But I feel like I've never known a world where I haven't been a little famous or fucking lot famous. You're iconic at a certain point. Then I became really, really famous. I feel like when you're on the COVID of Time magazine, that sort of. Which we both have been.
- [13:51]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes, I concur.
- [13:53]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah. I think when it sort of. When it gets to that point, then you sort of. Yeah, then it becomes like a level of fame that I personally don't feel that comfortable with. You know, even though I was happy with the movies I was doing and I was, you know, having. I loved the work of actually doing it, but. But the. All the fame and the notoriety, you know, outside of that, I found it really overwhelming and scary, and it changed me a bit. You know, it made me a very. I mean, maybe I would have been this. Maybe this is just who I am. But there was a part of it that I felt like I Became very closed and very self protective in a way that I think a lot of people sort of misinterpreted for, you know, people thought that I was, you know, aloof or stuck up or, you know, any. And it wasn't. It was fear and being very self protective.
- [15:00]
Monica Lewinsky
How, like, roughly how old were you?
- [15:03]
Molly Ringwald
I mean, I think you're talking about that. This was, I think, when I was a teenager, when I started to make the John Hughes movies.
- [15:09]
Monica Lewinsky
Wow. Was there one, like an incident or a moment that you sort of felt, oh, I now feel that fear.
- [15:19]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah. I was, you know, chased by the paparazzi and I was. And they trapped me in like a revolving door.
- [15:27]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my gosh.
- [15:28]
Molly Ringwald
In a hotel. And the flashes kept going on and you know how disorienting flashes are. But then I was also in a. In a revolving door that just kept turning, turning, turning. And that was terrifying for me. And still to this day, when I go to a red carpet event or anything and there's the flash, my heart starts to race and I get like, yeah, I get scared. I just, I. You know, and I don't. And I've done it enough now and, you know, nothing, you know, touch wood, like, nothing bad's gonna happen. It's just people taking my picture. But, yeah, there's something really frightening there for me at that. At that age, because I was still like a baby.
- [16:13]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also it's always been interesting to me from my experiences of thinking about, like, that we say taking a picture and because people are taking something from you. And a lot of times with paparazzi, it's without your consent, you know, so that you're somehow a free commodity for people because you become a public person.
- [16:38]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah.
- [16:39]
Monica Lewinsky
I can't believe actually that you were three, you know, you've just sort of. You've known performance. I mean, we all know performance as kids, right. That's how we get attention from our parents.
- [16:49]
Molly Ringwald
Every. Yeah, exactly. You do this funny, cute, adorable thing and your parents applaud you and. Yeah, and every kid does that, which is why I think so many kids are just natural actors.
- [17:02]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [17:03]
Molly Ringwald
The tricky thing is holding onto that, you know, if you continue acting, being able to hold onto that sort of childlike joy of performing for your parents and still be able to not feel ridiculous or self conscious or, you know, because that was really hard for me as I. As I got older, I thought there was a moment where I thought, is this just ridiculous what I do? Is it ridiculous? Is this shameful? Just because I feel like, there is something about acting that's always an actor's. And I'm speaking for myself here. Just like, oh, please love me. Please love me, Mommy long me.
- [17:55]
Monica Lewinsky
You don't have to be an actor to feel that way.
- [17:58]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah, but actors act. Actors especially. This is what we do. We're like, you know, I'm great. You know, look at me. Yeah. But I just sort of have to face the fact that that's a big part of who I am is, you know, acting, performing, you know, eliciting a response from people and hopefully making people feel a connection with that.
- [18:24]
Monica Lewinsky
You definitely do. You do. Thank you. I mean, like, your entire career, always. Every performance. Every performance. So on stage, too. I've seen you on stage many times.
- [18:38]
Molly Ringwald
So you were one of the first people who came to one of my jazz gigs.
- [18:42]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, really?
- [18:43]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah.
- [18:44]
Monica Lewinsky
Wow. I didn't know that back when.
- [18:46]
Molly Ringwald
I think it was, like, it was somewhere in Malibu. It was really far in Malibu, I remember. And it was, like, one of my first gigs that I did with my jazz band.
- [18:54]
Monica Lewinsky
Yep.
- [18:55]
Molly Ringwald
And I remember I was trying to get pregnant with my twins, and so I was, like, injecting myself in the bathroom.
- [19:02]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my gosh.
- [19:03]
Molly Ringwald
With, like, hormone, you know, medication. And I thought, well, it is kind of jazzy because I am, like, shooting up in a bathroom, but it's like, it's a hormone to help me get pregnant.
- [19:15]
Monica Lewinsky
There's a good movie in there somewhere with that sort of metaphor.
- [19:19]
Molly Ringwald
But, yeah, you were, like, the only person who made the trek out there to see me, and I was so. I was so grateful.
- [19:25]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my God. You were amazing. You have. I don't. For anybody listening who hasn't heard Molly sing. She has an extraordinary voice. Um, when you were saying before about having felt a little afraid and kind of maybe closing yourself off a bit, did you feel in some ways that. Were you trying to hold on to who you thought you were? Had you already? Did you feel defined by how you were known in the press? Like, did you. Was there a separation there for you?
- [19:56]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah, I feel like it wasn't so much that I was trying to hold on to who I was. I was, like, becoming who I. You know, I didn't even know who I was at that point. And I think it's really, really hard to figure that stuff out in public. You know, it's really hard to go through that in the public eye and have. And, you know, because we're all supposed to make mistakes. You know, growing up is about making mistakes and learning from them. And Saying, oh, I thought maybe this was who I was, but that's not who I am. This is who I am. You know, figuring that out and everybody goes through that, but to go through it in public is, you know, it's a difficult thing. I mean, it's why I moved to Paris. I didn't realize it at the time, but there was something in me that just said I have to get out and get away from everything to sort of, you know, figure out who I am and what I want out of life and, you know, do I want to act? Do I want to continue acting, who I wanted to be? And it was possible for me to do that in Paris because at that time I wasn't really well known because those movies, well, now they have reached a cult status there as well. But at the time in the 90s, but they weren't. So I was able to sort of live a somewhat anonymous life there.
- [21:34]
Monica Lewinsky
Was that refreshing or did it feel scary? In some ways, both.
- [21:39]
Molly Ringwald
I mean, it was, it was. Yeah, it was refreshing. It was like I could breathe, I could walk around and like, just, I felt like I had my. My breathing had become very shallow because I was so, you know, like, what's going to happen? And, you know, am I. How, how am I going to, you know, hold on to the, you know, once you become really famous, there's this thing that you're supposed to, like, you know, you're supposed to stay in the same place and you're supposed to like, hold on to that, you know, and it's like, I didn't know anything about that except for the fact that it felt like a lot of pressure and it felt like if I didn't, if my movie didn't succeed at the box office or if whatever, that I was letting a lot of people down. And, and that's a lot. That's a lot for a young person, I think.
- [22:44]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, like you're letting your family down.
- [22:47]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah, letting my family down. Letting people down, you know, who believed in me, who said that I was, you know, blah, blah, blah or whatever, you know. Yeah, like that. I was just letting people down.
- [23:05]
Monica Lewinsky
Thanks so much to Audible, our presenting sponsor this year. Why not let Audible expand your life by listening? Explore over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts, and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your well being with advice and insight from leading influencers, experts and professionals. You'll find titles that enrich your life, relax you, and the ones I like best, titles that make you Laugh. Whatever your focus or interest, there's a listen for it on Audible. Ultimately, it's all about starting good habits. Making a positive change is the best goal you can make for yourself, and Audible can help. There's so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen. Let Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com reclaiming thanks so much to our sponsor, Reformation. I want to take a second to talk about one of my favorite clothing brands, Reformation. You've probably seen Reformation on Instagram or at a wedding. They make the best guesting dresses. But if you're like me, you may have thought that's all they do, well, you're in for a pleasant surprise. Last year they worked with Yours Truly and Vote.org on a campaign to empower voters to take part in the democratic process and show off their workwear. From doing the campaign and getting to know the brand even better. I love their sweaters, blouses, workwear, shoes and bags. But most important, I love how confident I feel in their stuff. Plus it really holds up since they make everything with super high quality, sustainable materials. Reformation is also a brand that uses their growing platform to do good in the world and especially in the sustainable fashion space. As they say, being naked is the number one most sustainable option. Reformation is number two. If you're looking for clothes you want to feel great in and feel better about, head to reformation.com you told this incredible story when. And it was interesting because I listened to it at the time and then listened to it again that in this, you did this interview with Ira for Ira Glass for this American Life, and you were talking about this with your mom like this. I don't know if you feel like talking about it.
- [25:26]
Molly Ringwald
I'll talk about that. My mom always said that I was special. Yeah. Yeah. My mom had lost her firstborn, who is my first brother, and my sister at the time was only six months old. And my mom had a complete breakdown basically. And she's open about it. She was suicidal. I mean, didn't try anything, but in her mind she thought, if I die by suicide, I'll be able to be with Robbie again. And then she had this experience that. And you know, my mom, my mom is like a very like grounded person. Not at all New agey at all this is but an experience that she had. And you know, looking back on it, my more I don't want to say cynical, but my analytical mind thinks, you know, well, she was having a Complete breakdown. And she was the one that was talking to herself. And, you know, but my mom absolutely to this day says, no, it was. I was visited by a spirit who told her why she was still supposed to be there. And apparently the reason was me. And that's a story that she told me from the time that I was very, very small. And the funny thing is, is a little PS to this whole story is apparently my sister said that. She said it to her.
- [27:12]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my gosh. Really? Do you. Do you think. Do you think that's. Do you think that's true, or do you think your sister heard. Your sister heard your mom saying it and maybe she wanted it to be true? I mean, that. What do you think that was? Gosh, that would be. You know, I don't know.
- [27:33]
Molly Ringwald
I haven't asked my brother if my mom had another child after my sister, my brother. And then I was the last one. I don't know. My mom. You know how it is when there's a story that you've heard your whole life, and then all of a sudden it's like your brother that. That happened to instead of you, and you're like, well, hang on. No, you know. But I don't know. Memory's a funny thing.
- [28:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Very, very funny. Memory and truth, right? They're two. So subjective. What did it feel like for you to sort of just always be told you're special? Did you ever have an experience, then that you were confronted where you felt, oh, maybe that's not true, like, in some way?
- [28:25]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah. Yeah, a lot. I feel like that I lived for so long with this fear of disappointing, you know, like I said, disappointing. I think first my primal relationship, which is my parents, but then there was that, you know, disappointing whoever, like my agent or my manager or fans or people. You know, I was just always very. Yeah, I was very hard on myself in that way. And, you know, and the fact of the matter is, is I did. I did feel like I disappointed them, but it didn't matter. I mean, this.
- [29:17]
Monica Lewinsky
When you went to Paris, So.
- [29:18]
Molly Ringwald
In this. Yeah.
- [29:19]
Monica Lewinsky
Or like, when.
- [29:20]
Molly Ringwald
You know, like when my career didn't stay at this, like, zenith of, like, white hotness or whatever, I feel like that was maybe a disappointment to my parents, but I feel like it was more like they were, you know, like, whenever you're having kids now, like, if they don't get something that they want or they don't do as well in a test or they. Whatever those, like, disappointments that they have in life, it doesn't mean that I believe in them. Any less, I might be disappointed for them, but, you know, but I. But I love them, and I feel like they're going to do extraordinary things, because I think they're extraordinary. And I feel like that's the way that my parents were as well. I never felt like, you know, particularly with my father, I felt like that. Well, both of them, I think. But I had a special relationship with my father, and my father passed away a couple years ago. But I feel like, yeah, he was just like, my biggest fan. And, you know, people say that all the time. They come up and they say, like, oh, I'm your biggest fan. You know, like, I actually did have my biggest fan, and it was my dad.
- [30:34]
Monica Lewinsky
It's pretty special.
- [30:35]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah, it's pretty incredible. It is. It is really special. But it's like, you know, of course, it's like, it's hard when you lose that.
- [30:43]
Monica Lewinsky
I haven't gone through that yet.
- [30:44]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah. I mean, it comes for all of us, and it's something that we all go through, which is kind of like. I think one of the reasons why I'm open and I talk about that because I feel like grief is, like. It's a hard thing for people, and it's happening all the time to everyone, everywhere. Sometimes it happens in a more brutal way than the way that it happened to me. But we all lose people that we love, and we all figure out a way through it. We have to. That's just part of life. But I know that anybody that's listening right now is struggling. Either they've gone through it, or they know that it's coming, but it's really hard. And I think the only way through it is to, I believe, to talk about it and to be there for each other.
- [31:38]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I mean, it's grief in general. Anderson Cooper has a great, you know, podcast on this, and so. But I think that there's. There's such a big, wide spectrum of grief, and it feels like that's on the. One of the. Close to the top of the list of those things that you wish they taught us when we were younger. Like, I saw this thing on Insta the other day about parallelograms, and it was like, yeah, I would have rather have learned about grief, how to move through grief than a fucking parallelogram. So, you know, that never, like, never became a thing for the rest of my life. So I hadn't experienced a few. I think it was actually in 2016, and I had gone back on medication at that point, and I'd Gone. And my therapist is a trauma psychiatrist, and gone in. And I was like, oh, I think I'm depressed, and maybe we need to up my meds and blah, blah, blah, and talking. And she was like, no, this is just grief, you know, and so I think we don't even. We don't even learn how to identify that, you know, in that way. And I find I've gotten a little better with it. I know a lot of griefs that I have still carry and move through are sort of around just not just the things that happened, but also what I lost in connection to that. Right. The kinds of things that I didn't experience or go through. And. And I imagine even though there was a lot more positive things for you, that there were aspects of young adulthood or adolescence that you just didn't get to experience, and did that feel like a loss for you or just something you didn't know it? So it.
- [33:27]
Molly Ringwald
I think it was, you know, it's all I know. And I think that I've had a pretty extraordinary life, so I try to stay focused on the gratitude of that instead of mourning something that was lost that I can't really get back. You know, I grew up in an unconventional way, and like you said, there was so much. There were so many great things about it. If I ever think about things that I've lost or, you know, things that I wish I would have done differently, I try not to have regrets, but I try to just acknowledge that, you know, particularly when I talk to my kids, because sometimes if I have expectations, if I, you know, if I'm really, like, gung ho about them going to college, you know, it's because I didn't, you know, and I've. And I wish that I had, because I think I really would have liked it.
- [34:31]
Monica Lewinsky
You would. I think you loved it.
- [34:33]
Molly Ringwald
I think I would have actually thrived. I wasn't a very good high school student, but I think. I think I would love college. I mean, I'm not ruling it out. One day I'll be the oldest student, but it's something that I would really like to do. And I've talked to people and they've said, oh, well, you could teach a class. And I'm like, I don't want to teach a class. I want to learn. I'm just so. I'm just eternally thirsty for knowledge. So anyway, I think to get back to that, I would rather sort of look at that and sort of acknowledge that so that it tells me something about what it is that I want. And how I want the rest of my life to unfold.
- [35:21]
Monica Lewinsky
Mm, interesting. I'm like now back thinking about college and how. Cause I went to graduate school late. So, you know, so I was in my early 30s and much older than a lot of the other kids. And I so appreciated being spoon fed knowledge. Like to have somebody hand you an outline for a lecture and to be given this and to just have your mind blown and constantly, you know, thinking of new things and putting things together. It is, it's such a gift that we don't appreciate at 18.
- [35:54]
Molly Ringwald
Not at all. At all. I really do feel like, you know, that people should have a little bit of real life, real world experience so that they can really appreciate this incredible gift of education.
- [36:08]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, a gap year like they do in Europe, you know, so it's. Or several gap years, but yeah, it's. I think, yeah.
- [36:17]
Molly Ringwald
Did you feel self conscious being older, being an older student?
- [36:21]
Monica Lewinsky
I think I felt more self conscious about being Monica Lewinsky than being an older student. Yeah, it was a little harder and I think it was.
- [36:33]
Molly Ringwald
But you kind of got over it. I mean, I kind of felt. I'm not gonna speak for you, but did you feel like you were maybe self conscious at first, but then once you got into it, that kind of went away? Or was it just. Or did you just feel self conscious all the time?
- [36:49]
Monica Lewinsky
I think in terms of being older, that went away. So I think once I made friends and I've always been a big believer of like, you just need one friend, one person to have lunch with, one person to go to the movies with. And I had, I made several friends like that. I'm still close to today. But it. Graduate school was really interesting for me because it sort of became the mirror of my trauma. So it was like all of the things that I hadn't totally understood had damaged me came to the surface. So I hadn't realized the impact of having been called stupid for such a long time. So I couldn't get up and give a presentation in class and my imposter syndrome around. I was afraid to go. Like when we had to write essays and do dissertation, which I'd never done a dissertation or thesis, whatever the it was. I was too. I was too worried about going to ask for help because I was anxious that what I needed help with, everybody else knew and then they would like go, oh, you don't really belong here. You know, so. So there was that.
- [38:08]
Molly Ringwald
But you got through it.
- [38:10]
Monica Lewinsky
I did.
- [38:11]
Molly Ringwald
And you got skills that you use today. Yeah, don't you.
- [38:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, yeah, I think, you know, I think I read Rashida Jones said this once somewhere and it was so perfect that I've stolen it. That a master's degree gives you a new lens. And so that is completely, you know, it really reoriented how I looked at myself. My own story, but also what happened to me in the world because I was studying social psychology, so. But I. Yeah. Go back to school.
- [38:44]
Molly Ringwald
I.
- [38:45]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, I mean, you know, you can take one. You can take one. I don't know how many classes you have to take a thing to be.
- [38:52]
Molly Ringwald
Matriculated, but yeah, I don't know. I have to figure that out. My kids, you know, my 15 year olds are already looking at colleges and Matilda is in college. So I kind of have, you know, sort of poked my, you know, like, I look at who the professors are and what are the classes I would like to take. I don't know. It might be something that I'll do.
- [39:18]
Monica Lewinsky
One day and I don't know, maybe your time in Paris was like this. But for me it was like fumbling. I was just fumbling, trying to move forward and didn't really know how to do that, which way to go, where to go. And so. Okay, well, this isn't working. So what's the opposite of this? Okay, I'll try that. And that doesn't work. And you're, you know, kind of. So.
- [39:42]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah. Does that ever go away, though? I mean, that. I totally relate to that, but I don't. I feel like maybe I've. I've had like moments where I was, you know, I have moments, I have experiences, but I don't think that, that, that feeling of like fumbling through life ever really goes away. At least it hasn't for me.
- [40:08]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I think they're moments.
- [40:10]
Molly Ringwald
I feel like if one is searching and if one is not complacent and is searching, then you're always fumbling.
- [40:23]
Monica Lewinsky
Did you write? Were you writing all along? And it was just sort of one of those things where you eventually felt ready to let people read your writing or was. Did you sort of start to discover that you were a writer?
- [40:38]
Molly Ringwald
Oh, I've always been a writer. I mean, that was, you know, there were. I would say there were three main things that I was really interested and focused on as a kid, and that was acting, singing and writing. I also danced, but dancing, you know, ballet and, you know, it was. It wasn't. I wasn't as obsessed with that as I was with the acting and singing and writing. And I think it's because I've just always been obsessed with people and why we do what we do.
- [41:21]
Monica Lewinsky
Do you have an answer?
- [41:25]
Molly Ringwald
I'm still finding out, but I feel like that's. That's what makes me want to write or take on other people or Personas, you know, because of this desire I have to understand humankind. It's just my obsession, and I don't know that that's ever gonna go away.
- [41:45]
Monica Lewinsky
That's so interesting. I've never thought about the connection of, you know, I mean, obviously actors inhabit other people and Personas, but I haven't ever really thought about it or heard maybe of that interest coming from sort of trying to understand the human condition better, you know. That's really interesting.
- [42:07]
Molly Ringwald
I mean, it sounds lofty when I hear it back to me.
- [42:11]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, sorry.
- [42:12]
Molly Ringwald
I think it's really interesting, you know, human condition. Yeah. What makes us human, you know, what makes us make the same mistakes over and, like, what makes us betray each other? What makes us betray ourselves? You know, I was just reading a memoir of a galley of Ione skies, and it was really interesting because we've had these lives that have sort of, like, that were happening at the same time. And, like, we were both actors and we both dated the same people. I dated Adam Horowitz. She married him. But she writes very honestly and openly about, in her case, infidelity and being unfaithful to somebody that she deeply, deeply loved. And then compartmentalizing and. And, you know, I mean, I had so much respect for and her writing about it. And it's very painful for her because she lost. You know, I mean, she's okay. She's married to somebody. That's great. Ben Lee. But, like, why do we do that? Why? You know, and we all do. Like, everybody, you know, it's just part of the human condition. But it's just a. It's something that I want to understand. And not just that there's so many things that we do that I want to understand. And I think that's why I'm drawn to writing and to acting. To be able to inhabit a character, you know, just really be inside of a character. You get to, in a way, feel what that character is feeling. And it's impossible to not understand if you felt it. It's weird. I've never really talked about it in that way.
- [44:18]
Monica Lewinsky
One thing I wanted to go back to, because you were mentioning it before, and this is in connection to John and the sort of early years you wrote this extraordinary piece in the New Yorker in 2018. About. Exactly like what you were saying before about recontextualizing, I think, for today's world, like, what these films meant. And so just. I don't know. Can you, like, sum up the article or just, you know, what did you know?
- [44:53]
Molly Ringwald
Well, I wrote this piece because I'm still figuring out. I'm still really interested in my own feelings about it. And it became very apparent to me when I had my own kids and I wanted to show them my work. And then when that happened, you know, you can't help but see everything from a different angle.
- [45:31]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, when that happened, being showing your kids or MeToo?
- [45:36]
Molly Ringwald
Well, I guess both, because I wrote two. Well, I've written a few pieces for the New Yorker now, but the first one I wrote was right after, I think, right when, you know, the second wave of MeToo happened.
- [45:52]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [45:53]
Molly Ringwald
And I say the second because.
- [45:54]
Monica Lewinsky
No, no. Cause tarana started it 10 years prior. Exactly.
- [45:57]
Molly Ringwald
Exact.
- [45:57]
Monica Lewinsky
Exactly. Exactly. 100%.
- [46:01]
Molly Ringwald
So my first piece that I wrote was all the Other Harveys. Because everything was so focused on Harvey Weinstein. And I wanted to say, no, it's not just Harvey Weinstein. It's a lot of people in a lot of different businesses. But it was the first time that I had spoken a little bit about my own experiences as being a young actress growing up in Hollywood. The second piece that I wrote was about looking at the Breakfast Club and those movies that I did with John hughes through the MeToo lens. And it was really a hard article to write because I wouldn't have the career that I have if it weren't for those movies. And I feel like I have a lot of privilege being in those. And I don't want to come across as poor me. I'm very cognizant of the fact that people have much more challenging dealing with much bigger issues than me. But it still, you know, it's still a lot to grapple with. And I also really wanted to be very careful and not. I didn't want it to be seen as condemning them at all. Because I feel like those movies still mean a lot to people and they still have so many redeeming qualities. And, you know, the overarching message, I think, is something that's very positive for kids to watch.
- [47:56]
Monica Lewinsky
Do you think they reflected the culture more or shaped the culture more?
- [48:02]
Molly Ringwald
I think that they reflected John Hughes experience in a very white, almost segregated part of Chicago. You know, I say kind of segregated because it wasn't officially segregated. But, I mean, let's face it, our life, I Grew up looking back on it in a very segregated way. I mean, in the elementary school that I went to in Sacramento, two people of color that were in that grade. And I remember it because I was looking, because the music that I sang with my father was jazz music and all of the great jazz performers and singers were black. And so but I didn't see that reflected in my school, you know. And this was like growing up in the 70s, you know. And so I feel like like John's experience was, you know, that was really his experience. And he grew up in a not very diverse racial. Not very racially diverse. And yet people have told me, you know, a lot of black people, a lot of, you know, my friend Ruben Toledo, who is from Cuba, you know, so many people have told me how much they relate to this experience of watching the Breakfast Club that to them it was, you know, so I guess we're all avatars, you know.
- [49:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, I think, I think, I mean that's in some ways, right. That's the gift of emotional truth. Right. So like, yes, it's important to see yourself in different ways. Right. So whether it's your skin color or your body type or your nationality or, you know, all those things. Right. But I think that probably there was so much emotional truth in those films that like, you can't help but find yourself in there somewhere, you know.
- [50:19]
Molly Ringwald
So I mean, I think so. Although, I mean, nobody's going to remake the Breakfast Club because they don't. They legally can't. It's like, you know, J.D. salinger, you know, nobody can make Catch her in the Rye. I think that's going to be the case with the. But even so, I feel like you couldn't make that movie now.
- [50:39]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [50:39]
Molly Ringwald
Because it really does not represent America. You know, it would have to be more, you know, diverse, racially diverse, I think.
- [50:50]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. But wait, do you feel like, do you feel like you couldn't tell that story?
- [50:58]
Molly Ringwald
You could tell the story, but it would be a different story.
- [51:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Uh huh. Okay. Oh, interesting.
- [51:03]
Molly Ringwald
I mean, that would be something that I would be more interested to watch anyway than somebody just remaking, you know, the Breakfast Club as it was. You know, I feel like it would be much more interesting to see a Breakfast Club like movie that represents today. I want to ask you just. I don't know if it's finished yet, but you produce the Amanda.
- [51:29]
Monica Lewinsky
I am eping. We're in the process of shooting so eping the Amanda Knox limited dramatic series for Hulu.
- [51:37]
Molly Ringwald
So very exciting.
- [51:38]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. It's another story of a young woman who becomes public property. Right.
- [51:45]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah.
- [51:45]
Monica Lewinsky
So. And I think that, you know, we've seen over the years, especially as we look back now, you know, even when it's positive attention, like what you had, there is a price to pay to be owned by the world when you're very young.
- [52:03]
Molly Ringwald
I feel like it was a little. When people ask me what it was like, that whole experience really felt like being swept up in a wave. I mean, that's.
- [52:17]
Monica Lewinsky
In a good wave or a bad wave. Cause I'd be afraid to be swept up in a wave.
- [52:22]
Molly Ringwald
Well, and sometimes, you know, I love the water. And there's. Sometimes when you're, like, riding a wave, and it just feels like, wow, you know, it feels great. But then, like, if you move the wrong way, suddenly you're, like, upside down and you have, like, water in your nose and in your throat, and you, like, think, am I going to die? And I can't breathe. And this is humiliating because when I stand up, my whole ass is gonna be covered with sand. And, like, you know, this is the thing. That's what it feels like, though. It's. You know, it's great. And it's like. And then in, like, in a second, it's not great, you know, but then you write yourself, and then it can be great again.
- [53:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Did you. Did you talk about, like, did you have a Harvey experience?
- [53:08]
Molly Ringwald
Did I have a Harvey experience with him or. Well, I've had. I've had many Harvey experiences with different people at a young age, and I'm still processing in. You know, I've processed it in a private way, and eventually I'm going to be able to talk about it and write about it, but it's still. I'm still grappling.
- [53:44]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. I think this complicated thing happens in society where. And with change, where a big cultural change happens, and it somehow feels like it's a switch that went, you know, like, it was off and now it's on. And now everything is binary about. Is it from the off or the on or the before or the after or the yes or the no?
- [54:06]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah.
- [54:06]
Monica Lewinsky
And it's so. And one of the things I appreciate about your writing is, is the nuance. And I think, you know, and that's what I hear you saying now of, like, trying to unpack these, you know, experiences. And I went through the same thing, I think, like, with my own. Of just kind of first feeling. And I know you said a similar sentiment in your piece, too, of, like, am I the voice that, like, there are a Lot of other voices that should maybe be heard in this subject area. That's how I felt for myself. But I think that way of just trying to think, okay, how do you reprocess? But also allow yourself space to go, yes, it was that, but no, it wasn't that. And also I think I was very. And have always been mindful of, gosh, I don't wanna be getting on some bus that everybody's getting on. And like, re. You know, it's always been really important to me to sort of differentiate the. Yeah, there was abuse of power, but it was not sexual assault. You know, my experiences from 98.
- [55:16]
Molly Ringwald
Yeah, it's very hard to, like you said, to feel like you're supposed to take a stand and that, you know, you're supposed to take a stand and it's supposed to be very clear, black or white. And nothing is, for me at least, there's been nuance. And it's hard for people to understand that. I think. I think it's hard for all of us to understand that we all want answers. I think that's one of the reasons why true crime is such a. So fascinating for people, is because they get to the end and then, you know, and then they find out who did it and everyone can go to bed because they caught the bad guy until the next day, and then they have to do it again. You know, we want answers. We want everything to be very clear. And unfortunately, I feel like, you know, it's not always there is nuance, and I'm okay with that. You know, I mean, I think the older I get, the more interested I am at looking through all these different lenses.
- [56:38]
Monica Lewinsky
Me too.
- [56:38]
Molly Ringwald
And to understanding the good and the bad. And, you know, I definitely believe that we all have a shadow side and we also are able to radiate light. And I'm okay with that.
- [56:52]
Monica Lewinsky
You have a lot of wisdom, Molly. I, like, really?
- [56:55]
Molly Ringwald
I don't know.
- [56:56]
Monica Lewinsky
I mean, I always come away from our conversations and feel sort of renewed and like, I thought about something in a different way. And I've been. Always been so impressed by how you've, especially over the years, like you've become an unpacker, like a real unpacker of looking at things and reevaluating. And I've heard you talk about things in ways that are so, like, emotionally and spiritually impressive, if that makes sense. So.
- [57:31]
Molly Ringwald
Thank you. That's really nice to hear.
- [57:33]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, no, it's interesting. I mean, we've known each other for a really long time, a really long Time. Yeah.
- [57:38]
Molly Ringwald
We've been there, I think, witnessed some very hard things in our lives. And, I mean, it's been like an absolute joy to see you become this incredible. I mean, I always knew that that's who you were, and I always believed that. But to see you. I mean, there were moments where. I mean, I'm just going to say it. You can always cut it out. But I remember you coming to see a play that I was doing. And we were in the restaurant together. It was just you and me. I remember that you had gone somewhere for solace. And then you were in. And just how, like, hard and hurtful it was.
- [58:31]
Monica Lewinsky
It was very.
- [58:34]
Molly Ringwald
I mean, I'm crying, but it happened to you. It was. But it's hard. But I think when you.
- [58:39]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. So, I mean, just, like, I think to explain, right. That the. I had gone to temple. I think it was Yom Kippur. I'd gone to temple with some of my relatives here in New York, and I wasn't a member of the congregation. And so the rabbi had used me as a negative example of something in his. In his speech. And it was. And it's interesting because I feel myself now. Cause I remember the moment of just. I just shut down. Like, I just. I become so used to being publicly shamed in different ways. And so I think that it was jarring. Cause it was an unexpected place. I just feel I can. It's like a cement wall just sort of comes down, like a gate, you know, so. You're so sweet.
- [59:42]
Molly Ringwald
It was really. It was really hard and made me so mad. Like, I wanted to go and find him. And, you know, but this just happened. So, I mean, this, you know, all the time. I would, you know, hear that. And so, anyway, as your friend, it's just been really lovely to watch you reclaim your narrative. And in such a beautiful, dignified way. I don't know that I've had the opportunity to really tell you that. And, you know, it's just been really nice.
- [60:24]
Monica Lewinsky
So I like to ask everybody at the end if there is anything that you are working on reclaiming right now. And it doesn't have to necessarily be an emotional thing. It could be anything that you have lost or had stolen that you're trying to get back. So it could be a memory or an object or, you know, or an experience.
- [60:50]
Molly Ringwald
I think, like, everything else, to me, everything is a process to me. I feel like I want to reclaim that feeling of being able to do it. And I feel like that is something, you know, that feeling that you have when you're little and before anybody tells you that you can't as an adult. And I feel like I'm aware of the fact that even if you sort of get it, you could also lose it the next day. So that's why to me, it's a process. It's a process of reclaiming every day. And I find it every time I write that book, I used to tell myself I couldn't write or I could never publish what I write because I'm an actor and nobody would accept an actor writing. And how dare I? I didn't think things like that when I first started to write because nobody had. I didn't care. I don't know. I just. That belief in myself. So it's something that I have to trick myself back into every day. And I think that's a form of reclaiming, of reclamation that just I do every day. So. So it's that process.
- [62:21]
Monica Lewinsky
Thank you so much for doing this.
- [62:24]
Molly Ringwald
Thank you. This has been great.
- [62:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, really good. Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky Production services by WTF Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez Wren and Emily Feld Brake and executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty and Marshall Louie.