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Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. For today's episode, I spoke with my brave and brilliant friend, Olivia Munn. We met over a decade ago and bonded over all things Woo. Woo. So crystals, astrology.
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B
We.
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A
We just got into deep, real conversation really quickly, which is kind of the way I like to do it. You probably know her as an actor and an activist, and if you're on social media, you'd also know her as the mom to adorable Malcolm and May. Because Olivia and I are close, I knew about her struggle with breast cancer in real time. But to hear her heartbreaking and inspiring story in the details that she shared in our conversation, it meant so much to me and made me admire her even more. And for any fans of the newsroom, we went there too. So, anyway, I hope you find something to connect to in our chat. And thanks for joining us on Reclaiming. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Audible. Visit audible.comreclaiming to find your next listen. Thank you to our sponsor, Reformation. Visit reformation.com to see why they're my go to for stylish and sustainable fashion. Thank you for being here.
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B
I'm so happy to be here. I was so excited when you called.
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A
Aw, thanks. I was thinking about, you know, in having this chat, thinking about how we met.
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B
Oh, my gosh, so long ago.
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A
I know. At the Vanity Fair Oscar party. And then you came over not that long after and you brought me these lovely. It was like Jungian psychology books by Robert Johnson, I think.
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B
He and she.
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A
Exactly. And we. You got he, she, we. I loved that. So I love, like either books or.
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B
You know, when I walked into, I. I have not been. By that point, I had not been someone who was really into warning trigger. Warning crystals. Yeah, like, people are like. And. And I approached it scientifically, not in a very. You like to use the word woo. And I, I never. I wasn't into that until then, really. Right around that time. And. And when I went into your apartment in New York, there was crystals everywhere. And I was like, okay, we're gonna get each other.
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A
Right?
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B
That's why the Robert A. Johnson books resonated with me, because they. He was a student of Carl Jung, who's a famous Swiss psychiatrist. So it was those things that kind of got me into understanding my choices in life and my own psyche. Then once I kind of understood a little bit more about myself. I wanted to expand and expand into a lot of different things that I was trying to do. To try to heal myself for things I had no idea were broken crystals was really just a way to get into my own spirituality. And so, yeah, when I walked into your apartment, I was like, okay, we're gonna have. We're gonna have a shorthand, which we always have. I know.
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A
Which has been so nice.
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B
You know, when I came up to you. I don't. Yeah, we talked about this later, but I had seen you. I know that you were doing a lot with bullying, and that made me so excited because I had this idea that never came to fruition.
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A
Right.
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B
But I thought a lot about myself when I was younger and getting bullied because I was in a military family. So we moved around a lot, so constantly, like the new kid. And there were times where if you looked on paper, it would seem like by the accolades I might have gotten in school, that, oh, life was easy, but there was enough bullying that it really changed how I think I approached adulthood as well. And how I think back on those times, I had this idea that it was like, there's make a wish. Right? For these kids who, you know, are going through such unimaginable health issues, and they get to meet, like, their favorite athletes or celebrities and singers and actors, and it's such a wonderful organization. And I was like, man, I would love something for kids who are being bullied because the mental health is just as important as physical health. And I thought, like, wouldn't that be great if there was an organization where, like, there's a kid who's being bullied at school every day and feels like there's no friends and. And is sad every day. And then, you know, their favorite celebrity was like, Channing Tatum. And then all of a sudden, Channing Tatum shows up.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And he's like, in the cafeteria, he's like, I'm gonna be hanging out with you all day long. And how that would just make an impact on a kid and their self confidence. And so then, you know, you have, like, your big celebrity who. Who comes in and you have like.
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A
We could still do it.
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B
I mean, you.
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A
You can. I would love it, but it's very. I know it's hard because I remember when you told me that idea, and I loved it from that moment. You were one of the first people to just say yes to be involved in this anti bullying campaign, which you.
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B
Won an Emmy for. Right.
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A
Or the other one. We were nominated. But that campaign was around really Actually reclaiming theme, but around taking back the power from the names that you'd been called as a kid. And so I remember you were actually. Kelly Ripa did your intro, and it was something about being a new girl, being bullied for being a new girl.
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B
For people not knowing you and all of a sudden giving you a label.
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A
Yeah.
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And it's. It's really interesting because labels and how the world sees you, it. It's how you're treated.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Right. So even if you think that's not who I am, it becomes a huge part of your identity. And at least for me, being really feisty and fighting back became my identity because I was called, like, certain things when I got to that school specifically. I remember when I was 13, that's when the. The bullying happened, and I became really feisty and fought back a lot, physically fighting. I. Wow. Yeah. I grew up doing martial arts. Okay. So in my mom, I do credit this to being a cultural thing, being Asian, but a lot of other kids are taught this too. And then a lot of Asian kids aren't not taught this as well. But when I was young, really young, I was like, second grade, and this girl on our street that we used to play with all the time, she was a lot older than us, she picked me up and then threw me down on the ground. And so I ran inside crying to my mom. And she had been washing dishes and watching through the window, and instead of comforting me, she looks at me and says, I don't put you in karate to just be thrown down. Get up and fight back. And I was like, well, now it's done. And she goes, go back out there and. And kick her. So I went back out and kicked her because I actually was crying, and I said, my mom told me to do this, and then I kicked her. But When I was 13, I was in the school, and these. It was a group of five girls, and they would just hound me. I was new to the school. I. I made one friend. Her name is Karine, who's still my best friend. And we didn't have a. We had one class together, Karine and I. But the rest of the time, I was really on my own. And these girls would just find me and then push me out of the cafeteria, and I would go find steps outside the. The school to. To sit on and eat my lunch, and they would just find me, and they would really threaten to, like. They'd be like, we're gonna beat you up. And they'd call me all these names, and 13 years old. So, you know, the insults felt really damaging. Although, if you look back as an adult, you'll be like, you know, move on. But at 13, it was, of course.
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A
You'Re just forming your identity.
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Yeah. And so it had gone on for a long time, and I never knew how to take on five at time, even though I was really feisty.
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A
Like, I said, karate didn't teach you.
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B
It actually did. But, you know, I'm one of five kids, and so I always had siblings and older siblings to, like. I mean, we would play fight and stuff like that at home and sometimes really fight. But I just. It's very intimidating when you have five kids coming up to you at once.
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A
Yeah.
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And especially when you're just 13 and have never really had, like, street fighting.
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A
Right.
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And so I. At that. I remember after it going on for months, I just stood up and I said, okay, let's go. And they went, what do you mean? I go. I said, you throw the first punch. Yeah. And they're like, what do you mean? I go, if you throw the first punch, I don't get in trouble, because that's what my mom had taught me. And then they were so surprised. And I remember putting down my lunch and then, like, tying my shoes, making sure they were tight, and I just was like, let's go. And they backed off.
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A
Wow. I knew you were badass. I didn't know you were that badass, Olivia.
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B
But those. That quality has helped me in life, but also really hurt me in life, too.
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A
Okay. In what way do you think?
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B
I think that I have. I'm quick to be protective of myself, but have not thought about the repercussions of. Of how intense I would be or how much I would throw it back. For example, when I first got in the public eye, I was on this network called G4, which is a video gaming network and also about pop culture. And I was on this live daily show. And. And then also, this is before Twitter hadn't even started yet when I started.
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A
Oh, my gosh.
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B
Yeah. And there were forums, and I just. I would just. People would, of course, you know, bubbleguide. They criticize every little thing about you and call you names, and I would just throw it back. And the way that I learned how. And I. And the way that my siblings would, like, kind of clap for each other and, like, egg each other on and be like, that's the way you. You know, you throw it back to, you know, to each other. And so I think that I definitely made a lot of missteps. In that realm because I was, I think in.
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A
In the new space of sort of social media, it's. That allowed people who have a public platform to experience something in a very different way. It's a sort of. I don't know if power is the right word, but I think when you have a certain size community there, if you, you know, you have to be mindful, which you don't realize at first. Like, you have to be mindful because if you go after someone, all your stands. Right. Will go after that person too. And so you're right. And so that's the thing where I think it's. It's. It's interesting to see something. A technology like that bring change a whole aspect of kind of our culture, our celebrity culture that way.
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B
And also at that time, and the tail end of that was a period where Howard Stern ruled supreme. And so outrageousness was the. The key to success. I mean, that was how the more outrageous you could be. And he got away with it. And even I remember watching his things and feeling very uncomfortable with, you know, how he was treating women especially. And the way that he talked about women, the women who would come on and the quote, unquote, games that they would play, it was nothing that I would. Nothing close to anything I had even thought of doing. But there was this collective consciousness that accepted outrageous conversation and quips and look.
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A
Where it's gotten us now.
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B
I know.
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A
Well, I would say, you know, in the politically right.
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B
Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I. I think that. That we have become desensitized as a society. But at the same time, there is this uprising of people on social media who, who are wanting justice for things and wanting to see the full picture. And I think that you have benefited from that as well. And I've been. I'm sorry, it makes me feel so, as your friend, like, so happy for you. Because people on social media, especially in like, TikTok and this younger generation, really understand what you went through. Whereas back then, oh, man, like, it was so much judgment, especially from other adults who were like, way older than you and a completely different generation. So they. A generation where they expected children to be more mature really early on to understand. And there wasn't this understanding of how, like, our frontal lobe doesn't really develop until we're like, in our mid to late twenties and the choices we make stay with us for so long.
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A
Really.
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B
Yeah.
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What is so interesting to me is because I know you as all these wonderful things of kind and smart and funny and brave and you're an advocate. And so I wasn't surprised at all when you were awarded this impact award last year. But what's interesting is to sort of think about, you know, John gave this great speech, and I have a quote from it. I think it went viral on there. But he said that Olivia is constantly trying to keep me out of danger and keep me alive through a series of texts.
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I had no idea that was for him to show up like that and then read our private texts, but there.
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A
Were some good ones in there. He was like, baby, be so careful today. You could get monkeypox.
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B
He was on his way to the Tom Ford store, famously known for their monkeypox.
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A
Yes.
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Yeah. And I just, I, I had heard or read online about people going into stores and trying on clothes and getting monkeypox from the people who had tried it on previously. And it did scare me, and I wanted him to know.
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A
But it's interesting because then there was the other one of you said, please be so careful today. So many crazy things could come out of nowhere. And Sean's like, like what? And you say, crazy cars.
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Yeah, because I had read again, something about a mom and their baby walking across the street in a stroller, and they were hit. And I thought, you know, you have to be alert at all times.
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A
Right.
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B
There's a reason for every text.
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A
No, I know. I'm sure. And I've, I've not spend too much time, but I've spent time with both of you, and I love you guys as a couple.
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B
And thanks so much.
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A
I always leave spending time with you with, like, a new book or having heard something interesting that one of you.
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Has said, always feel better leaving our conversations.
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A
But it's interesting because I have been thinking about that, your impact award, and how funny that speech was. And so it's just interesting to hear, like, how you were in this, in your youth of kind of this, like, karate, Olivia, badass. Gonna stand up to the bullies. And then contrast that with the anxiety, right. That comes in and the nervousness. And were you anxious at the same time when you were younger, or is this something that came later in life?
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I was anxious, but I didn't understand that it was anxiousness.
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Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, you're younger than I am, but I, I, I don't. So I don't know for you, but I know for me, growing up, we didn't. The anxiety was not a word that was used. It was like, oh, my stomach hurts.
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No. You know, no, for me, it was called stubbornness. My mom would always say, you're so stubborn. But that's because I would. I wouldn't want to do things or. Like, being in big groups was difficult for me. Walking into a cafeteria was. I used to think it was just because. And it might be. Actually. It might be the genesis of it, because I still have, like. I don't go to concerts. There's a lot of people. It just. It's a lot of system overload, you know, like, sensory overload. Everything is just, like, kind of going off for me. But the sound of silverware on linoleum trays that we had when we were in elementary school is like. I feel. It's like a nails on a chalkboard for me. Yeah. So I didn't know about the. The anxiety then, but it definitely came up when I was. It came up when I was 28, 29, and it was. It was. It had. It had started with being in the public eye with G4, and. And I think it was just compounding, you know, month after month, year after year, an underlying part of who I am is fairness and unfairness. And I think, too. Yeah.
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A
Wait, are you also Libra Rising?
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B
No. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm Libra Rising. So I thought you meant that. And then cancer. You're Leo. Yeah. Right.
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A
But I'm right on the cusp of cancer and Leo. So in Libra justice.
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B
Yeah, exactly. The scales of justice. So that's really big for me, and that's why I think things like being called names that I definitely was not was really difficult for me and almost just whatever that Libra Rising justice for all unfairness is not okay. It just took a deeper root inside of me because I was experiencing something that was really unfair. And, you know, going back to the question of, like, how did that feistiness, like, hurt me as an adult? There's. There's one. There's one thing I realized through this big journey that I had and to try to heal myself. And what I realized was because of how I grew up and different things that had happened to me, and I had a really tumultuous upbringing, and so set in Tokyo. Yeah, I grew up in Tokyo because the military and. And so things were really black and white for me, and I would make decisions without thinking them through enough. Like, I just was like, this is wrong. This is right. And I would never really be able to see the gray.
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A
And nuance isn't something like. I don't know that a lot of young people have nuance, but for you, you felt like it was more like, more demarcated than I was.
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B
Here's a really great example of how it affected me in my adult. There were other things that happened on this movie set personally, to me that was really not okay. And it was so traumatic that I had to file complaints with the studio. And there's a lot of other little things that go along with it. But it got to this place where I was offered a lot of money. A lot of money. Seven figures to accept, I guess, their apology and them taking acknowledgement of it. But it came along with an NDA. And not that I would ever have talked about it, truly, because I just. I wanted to move past it all. And that's why I don't want to talk about the things and the specific things that happened in that situation. But I said, I'm not signing an NDA. And they said, you have to. And I. I just felt that it was so wrong. And at this time, specifically, this was like in the beginning of the MeToo, time's up.
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A
The 2.0, right?
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B
Yeah.
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A
The online, right. Because Toronto Burke started 10 years ago.
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B
This was like the. The reckoning, the Harvey Weinstein reckoning that began at all, okay. This was that time period. And this is when people were targeting anyone who signed a. An NDA, saying, oh, you only did it for the money. So I was afraid, right, that my voice in speaking up would. Would be. Would just reverse any kind of. Any kind of validity to my voice. And. And I. I was concerned that they would leak it out. I was concerned that the studio, in an effort to diminish my voice, would leak out that I had signed an NDA for money. And I was in that meeting. The lawyers said, you know, like, you take some time to think about it. We'll step outside. And I turned to my lawyer and I said, I'm not taking it. And so he. They. I told my lawyer, I said, I'm just not going to do it. I want to say no now. He's like, let's think about. I said, I want to say no now. And that comes into the feistiness of not thinking things through and being so upset and frustrated that. That this would be the offer to me. I did not think about negotiating. I did not think about anything besides how disrespectful that was. So when they came in, I said to my lawyer, and I want to say it. And he was like, well, let it be. And I was like, I want to say it. And I remember looking at them in the eyes, and one, there was Three people. One had fallen asleep. And so I'm like, so clearly you take this very seriously. But the person who said to me, like, this is a lot of money, and they didn't say it in the kind way that I'm actually saying now, it was disrespectful. It was like, hey, this is a lot of money.
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A
Right?
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B
You'd be crazy not to take this. Are you kidding me? Just sign it. And I said to him, I know this is a lot of money to you, but it is not a lot of money to me to lose my voice. And we walked out of there, and I remember feeling so proud when I walked out.
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A
Yeah.
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So proud of myself. And shortly after that, California made NDAs illegal. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And it's. And look, was it the right thing to do? And do the people in my life think that I did the right thing and are proud of me for that? Yes. But I wish that it's not that I wouldn't have ended up with the same decision.
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A
Right.
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It's that I made that decision based on anger. And that is something that I had to learn how to rein in and use for my benefit. But the only time it's. I've realized that I've benefited from it is when I have taken the time to really think about things and digest it and talk it out.
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A
Was that experience what led you into kind of diving deeper into your healing work, or was that a result that you felt you could sort of stand behind your voice in that way was a result of having done the personal work?
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B
The catalyst was getting out of a relationship that had drained me and left me. Just really just. It's hard. I don't know if there's a word to describe what that relationship was like. It was, without a doubt, the hardest period of my life, being in that. And. And that's where the other thing comes in. So being feisty and learning that early on that it can. Like standing up to a group of people who are attacking you daily, like these five girls were when I was 13. It taught me how to stand up and. And fight for myself. So that was great. But then when you look at my family life, you know, I felt really trapped in this really tumultuous family dynamic. And so I knew that my friends and people in my life saw me as somebody that would fight back. And I had no idea. I truly had no idea that I could be manipulated and hurt that way, that I wouldn't just get out of something that was dangerous to My psyche.
- [25:08]
A
So, so many. So many women, I think, find themselves in. In different levels of relationships that are everything from psychologically and emotionally abusive to physically abusive. And. And I think find it hard to leave. You know, I mean, and I think people talk more now about, you know, attachment styles and stuff. And so I look back on some of my relationships during what I call my dark decade. So kind of in between 98, graduate school, whatever, and my first person essay in vanity fair in 2014, and I think, I look at it, and maybe it's a story I tell myself, but I think about that, the pain I was in staying in relationships with people who didn't value me, who talked to me a certain way, that I allowed and accepted and kept going back for more. And I look at it and I think I was. I was in a deeper pain. And experiencing the pain in the relationship was actually easier. Like, I knew. I knew I had to go through pain, and that was easier than the pain of really what I was sitting on. Of both not only my experiences in 98, but whatever, all those experiences before it, that, that, that led to all of that. And so did you feel. Do you feel like, does that resonate at all or something different?
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B
We had healthy relationships and lucky bitch. Well, that one made up for all of it. It was a bad, bad period of my life. And what I actually realized that I really want to teach my children and any friends of mine is that, you know, when they say, like, oh, just go on the date. Like, you never know. Like, you. You might like them, you know, you'll at least learn what you don't like. I think for some people who are, like, subconsciously vulnerable, which is what I think I was, because I had no idea I was like, this vulnerable to. To anything that had happened to me post that first date, is that if you feel in your gut something's not right, then don't do that first date or get out right away. Because one date could take years off of your life. Not just the period that you're with the person, but if you're lucky enough to get out the years healing yourself afterwards in that particular situation. I had a therapist who I really loved, and I know that she cared about me, or at least I thought she did. And. And I would constantly, from the very beginning, say, I don't. I don't know about this. I don't think this is the right I want to get. And then it got worse and worse. I'd be calling her crying and be like, I got to get out And I was like, help me get out. Like, help me. Like, wow. Like. And this is, this is shocking to people. But, but she encouraged me to stay. She thought that, you know, my quote unquote picker was off and she would look at it as like, but this person on paper looked great. And when there was couples therapy, they knew how to present the right way. So then the stories I would tell seemed unbelievable.
- [28:40]
A
Thanks so much to Audible, our presenting sponsor this year. Why not let Audible expand your life by listening? Explore over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your well being with advice and insight from leading influencers, experts and professionals. You'll find titles that enrich your life, relax you, and the ones I like best, titles that make you laugh. Whatever your focus or interest, there's a listen for it on Audible. Ultimately, it's all about starting good habits. Making a positive change is the best goal you can make for yourself and Audible can help. There's so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen. Let Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com reclaiming thanks so much to our sponsor, Reformation. I want to take a second to talk about one of my favorite clothing brands, Reformation. You've probably seen Reformation on Instagram or at a wedding. They make the best guesting dresses. But if you're like me, you may have thought that's all they do, well, you're in for a pleasant surprise. Last year they worked with Yours Truly and Vote.org on a campaign to empower voters to take part in the democratic process and show off their workwear. From doing the campaign and getting to know the brand even better. I love their sweaters, blouses, workwear, shoes and bags. But most important, I love how confident I feel in their stuff. Plus it really holds up since they make everything with super high quality, sustainable materials. Reformation is also a brand that uses their growing platform to do good in the world and especially in the sustainable fashion space. As they say, being naked is the number one most sustainable option. Reformation is number two. If you're looking for clothes you want to feel great in and feel better about, head to reformation.com I think what's interesting to me is to just think about how you have this strong sense of self. You lost yourself in this relationship. What's so interesting to me is because I think this is in a short period of time, you, you were able To. It may have been. It may have felt like forever to you and may have seemed near impossible, but you actually stepped into a healing mode and found yourself again in what I think is like a very powerful and quick, quick, quick way, you know, in. In a really. And. And that's one of the things that I admire about you, is that you are. You're so that you have a focus. And I think that's part of. I think that's the good. The good side of the black and white, the good side of the kind of the fierceness, the going in. And. And it's a decisiveness. Yeah.
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B
Well, I think from that experience, realizing that I gotta go with my gut and I gotta be decisive with some things, you know, not to be too decisive if it's. If it's anger based.
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A
Right.
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B
Or unfairness based, but if it's. If it's coming from a place where I want to survive and I realize that I'm not happy and that days and weeks and months go by of unhappiness and fear.
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A
I think we've talked about this before. You don't always know what's going on behind the curtain, especially for public people where we think we know everything. You know, and I, as your friend, you know, I watched you. I remember when you told me about that you had cancer. I remember when you told me I was in the parking garage, I was in my car. So I remember that, but I don't remember how you found out.
- [32:35]
B
Yeah, I found out after having done all the right things that we, as women, are told to do. If you have dense breasts, get an ultrasound, get your mammogram done. Genetic testing is amazing and has helped save so many people's lives. I did genetic testing. I remember getting the results from my doctor. She said, you're. You're clear on everything. BRCA and all the other cancer genes, you're clear. And my doctor, Dr. Taiyi Saliabadi, she has been a big advocate of the Breast cancer lifetime risk assessment test, which is just an online test. It's free. And you just answer some questions like, how old are you when you had your first period? How old are you when you had your first baby? Have you ever been pregnant? Is there any, you know, cancer in your family? And anything above 20% is considered high risk. And I scored 37.3%. Wow. So she said, go get an MRI. So I went and got the MRI. And I remember the radiologist saying to me, wait, why are you here? You're too young to get an mri. For. For your breast. And I said, well, you know, my doctor did the lifetime risk assessment test, and he was surprised. He was like, I haven't heard that in a long time. And I said, well, I scored this. And he said, okay. So I do the mri, and he calls me that same day, and he said, we found something. You need to go get an ultrasound to get it checked. So when I get the ultrasound, the radiologist is taking some time. And finally I said, you know, can you just tell me what you're seeing? And she said, well, I see the one from the mri, but now I'm seeing two more.
- [34:21]
A
Wow.
- [34:22]
B
And she said, what's concerning? Because of the shapes, because, you know, anything irregular is a concern. She said, the other thing that's concerning is when they look at the breast, they. They divide into quadrants. Imagine putting a cross right through it. And it's not atypical to have multiple tumors if it's cancer in one quadrant. But mine were now in two different quadrants. So they got me in right away the next day for a biopsy. And then it was just three days later. I went in on a Friday, and I found out Tuesday, and my doctor made me come in, and I had actually just. I had just gone to see her. So I was like, do I really. I was like, you know, over. I was over the hill, like, in Studio City. Yeah, she's in Beverly Hills. I was like, oh, man.
- [35:10]
A
People who don't know la watch the California.
- [35:12]
B
Oh, my goodness.
- [35:13]
A
God.
- [35:13]
B
I was like, yeah. I was like, I gotta go over Laurel Canyon, and it's not the time to do this. And it was like, how old is.
- [35:19]
A
Malcolm at this point?
- [35:20]
B
He just turned one.
- [35:21]
A
Oh, my gosh. Okay.
- [35:23]
B
So I. I go over and I go into her office, and I said, is it cancer? It's first thing out of my mouth. And she says, it is. And then I'm, you know, off to the races. A million meetings with all the different surgeons and oncologists and reconstructive surgeons to try to find my team.
- [35:43]
A
And so you knew right away you'd have reconstructive surgery or just my doctor.
- [35:49]
B
Who I'm very close with, she said, you should do a double mastectomy. She said, you're too young to have it in this many areas. And she said, if you have it this much in one breast, I guarantee it's in the left breast. And when I was talking to different doctors, they said, no, no, that's, like, so rare. You're not going to have bilateral breast cancer. It's. That's. No, no, don't. And I said, well, is it rare to have it in multi quadrants? And he said they were like, yeah, but no, that's even crazier to have it bilateral. And when I saw my doctor, the surgeon, Dr. Armando Giuliano at Cedars, he would be my surgical oncologist, he said, let me get my top radiologist here at Cedars and have him look at your original mri. And he called and he said, we do see something in your left breast. Let's go get. Let's get a biopsy for that. So I did an MRI biopsy on it. That came back as cancer as well. Wow. And it was very evident at that point that I need to do a double mastectomy because I. I needed to. I didn't know where another one would pop up. And also, if I only had in one breast, it would create a lot of, like, symmetry complications and be harder for me to. I don't know, to disguise it if I want to. Because at that point, I had no idea that I would speak up about this at all. In fact, when I found out, I was like, I'm not telling anybody. Don't tell anybody. Yeah, nobody say anything. I said to John, don't say anything.
- [37:20]
A
Yeah.
- [37:20]
B
It's not because I was embarrassed or ashamed. It was because I didn't want to get this influx of calls.
- [37:27]
A
Yeah.
- [37:27]
B
From people asking me if I'm okay or I just. I couldn't deal with other people's emotions.
- [37:35]
A
Do you think. Was there any part of you that also felt that in not telling people, it just sort of. That it almost. It could then just turn out to be a nightmare? That it sort of makes it more real when you concretize it. Telling other people or did you know?
- [37:53]
B
I didn't know that because it's very real when it happens.
- [37:56]
A
Yeah. My dad's a. He just retired from being a radiation oncologist.
- [38:02]
B
I know when you told me you were like, if you need anything, you were so sweet. You kept offering that.
- [38:06]
A
He's an amazing doctor. He just retired at 81, but he's incredible. Well, it's interesting because I, I. I grew up really. I mean, I was sort of. I'm like, I was a naughty kid, but, I mean, I used to sort of snoop around my. My dad's office and find all these slides of tumors and things, which is not a good thing to do when you're a kid. You don't really understand whatever that's for. Another therapy session. But What I was going to say is that I wonder if. Because they started to find, like people find cancer so much earlier today. If you think that's at all why they thought, oh, no, it's so rare.
- [38:45]
B
Well, I think they're finding it earlier because for some reason people are getting cancer younger and younger.
- [38:50]
A
Right. So you decided to do the double mastectomy. I mean, what was that like kind of going in, I mean, watching them. Did they mark up your breast? And did you, I mean, I don't know if this is too personal, but, like, did you do any, did you take like, photos or any sort of a ritual or something before of, like, saying goodbye to what was there.
- [39:15]
B
I was really naive about what a double mastectomy would be and what it would look like. I thought, I really thought that it was like getting an augmentation and, and it really wasn't until so many people, you know, would later find out about my breast cancer. And friends who are trying to lighten it or probably make me feel good about it, they're like, well, you got new boobs. And, um, you know, I did not have any rituals. I'm not that kind of person to do, like, rituals about things like, like that. I, I, I've talked about this before, but I only cried twice during the 10 months that I kept it private. I, I think I've cried many times since just because of the outpouring of love and support. But at that time, the, the time I cried was right before going into surgery. Mm. Again, not thinking about what the breast would look like. Just worried about my, my son. Like, oh, man. Like, what happens? What, what could, like there's anything. And actually my surgery went for 10 hours, and that's a lot longer than it was supposed to go for. And it's because I, I started bleeding a lot. And so they had to stop the bleeding. And you know, John and your family.
- [40:41]
A
Must have been so panicked.
- [40:42]
B
Yeah, my best friend Karine was there. She stayed. It was her and John that were at the hospital. And when I woke up, you know, John had pictures of Malcolm there, and Malcolm had drawn scribble marks everywhere on these papers. And they had it, he had all these, you know, all over, you know, the hospital room and just saying, like, I'm so proud of you, Mommy. And just things like that that were just so sweet. And so the second big cry I had was the week after my double mastectomy and I was going in for my, my one week checkup and, and I had to get undressed and I Was looking in the mirror and I, I had these things called expanders in. And some people do direct to implant double mastectomies. It means you do the, they do the double mastectomy and then they put the implants in. Right, right. Then, um. But Dr. Oranger smartly suggests to do expanders if you can. It puts on another surgery, but it allows your body to heal so you can see what, you know, size you want. And I really wanted to go as small as possible because a breast reconstruction with a double mastectomy, they're going to look more fake and just because of the anatomy of all of it and what has to happen. So I'm looking in the mirror and expanders in clothing, you can't really tell but like looking at them, they were like, they're like more like squared off edges at points and they sat up really high and I just. Oh, I still remember that feeling. I still, I just was like, I was in shock. I didn't say anything. And he was looking, he's like, you're healing. Incredible. This is great. And I just remember hearing the word incredible and thinking, oh my God, like, what is better than incredible? So this is going to be, this is it. And it wasn't it. And that's not what he was saying, but that's what shocked me. And I didn't know how. I just, I just had, I, I had, that's when I had, that's when it all came crashing down of like, oh, what I had gone through and I didn't know what I would look like afterwards. And, and at that point I hadn't decided to talk publicly about it. So I was just thinking, oh, so many people are going to be saying I had a bad boob job and they're going to be tearing me down and they're gonna, there's gonna be so many tick tock plastic surgeons being like, this is what she's done and this is what, this is how it was botched. And I just, I went home and I cried a cry. I have never cried in my life. It was. And it wasn't a superficial thing. It was, it was. And it wasn't based on an identity I had. I, I just, I think I realized I had gone through something and now things. It felt like I had gone through something and people. Somebody put me back the wrong way and I thought, oh, man. Honestly, a lot of the, the crying was mostly just shock. It was. My mom was visiting at that time to be there when I had gone through my surgery and she Comes in and tries to console me, but I just. I just needed to cry by my. By myself. And then I remember she called John and was like, you have to call her. And then so he calls me and what's. What's going on? I was like, I cannot talk right now. And I just. Because I. It was a personal journey that I had to go through in that moment.
- [44:08]
A
Sure.
- [44:09]
B
And, yeah, so those are the. Those were the two before and after. And then the rest of the time I was very focused. Almost like I didn't have time to cry and. And I couldn't think. I. Of course I worried that I wouldn't make it through certain things or that the. Or maybe in five years the cancer comes back and mine's an aggressive cancer and. And maybe some of it's still somewhere, you know, So I. Of course, that's the back. Back of my head. But I didn't cry because I couldn't be afraid. Like I said before, like, about the emotional baggage, I did not have time to hold anything on my shoulders anymore. I had to fight the biggest battle of my life. So everything dropped to the ground and I had to be kind to myself and take care of myself. And then when I got to the other side of the journey, I. I like, looked at all that baggage on the ground, I thought, I don't want to pick that up again. Yeah, I've been able to. If I can beat cancer without this baggage, like, I can take on any other little thing that comes up because everything after that does feel like a molehill.
- [45:21]
A
I want to hear this story.
- [45:22]
B
I did a lot of research. I did all the research, but I didn't.
- [45:25]
A
Because you're. You're smarty pants.
- [45:27]
B
But I, I didn't. I. The one thing I didn't research was what they would look like. He did show me some befores and afters, and I was shocked at them because some of them looked really great and then some of them did not. And he was trying to explain to him. He was. What I liked about him is that he was very honest. I like the brutal truth. I want. I don't want anything to be sugar coated. I want people to tell me exactly what things are. And, And I think that he. At the end, my end results, I think that he did the, the. He did a fantastic job with what he had to do, which is take out all of my breast tissue. And again, it does not look like an augmentation. My breast.
- [46:15]
A
Are you going to show us?
- [46:16]
B
I'm sorry. I'll show you Later. But they. It does not. You know, I. Because of my anatomy, my scars are not something that I can really cover up that much.
- [46:26]
A
And they're more expensive, like senior scar. You. I want to hear this story because you did this extraordinary. I mean, aside from just as a woman, but also as your friend. Just being grateful to you and so proud of you in how you have stepped forward in talking about this and I think bringing such awareness. One of our producers was saying that she took the test because of you.
- [46:51]
B
That makes me so happy.
- [46:53]
A
Yeah. And so I think you've brought so much awareness around the issue and the. And the bravery of talking about your mastectomy, too. But then this whole other thing happened. Another. It was like another layer of really kind of to say owning your story feels. Feels cheap in this instance, and I can't think of the right phraseology, but you were doing a skims ad, right.
- [47:21]
B
And for Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Right, skims. And the Susan G. Komen foundation wanted to do a campaign for Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Yeah.
- [47:32]
A
Right. And so you. You went and. Because it ended, you went in with a plan of one thing and came out with a plan of another.
- [47:39]
B
Right. Well, that company and the way it's run is fantastic. The group of women that. Running. It's. It's. It is. I walked away saying, this is why they got to 4 billion.
- [47:53]
A
Okay.
- [47:53]
B
So quickly. Like, a $4 billion valuation for their company is incredible. And to do it in such a short time. But the women really understand other women, and there was such. They were very focused, they're very creative, and they had an exact point of view of what they wanted. But. And at the same time, they were very nurturing and respectful. And you can tell it was. It's run by a celebrity who's in the public eye, because everything was garnered around making me feel comfortable. And a lot of times, it's not. It's always like, well, we have this. We have an image, and we need to get it done, and we're gonna, you know, do whatever we can and. And push you into things you're uncomfortable with. And they pushed.00%. So we were. My makeup artist was there, and, you know, she had touched up my mastectomy scars previously for, like, the Academy Awards events that I had gone to, which is right before I had spoken about it, about my breast cancer. And so she was on set touching them up, and it just was like, it takes a long time. And the lighting, it was just. And then it just hit me that I was just. I was Tired of being insecure about them because I was really insecure. There are some other spots that I'm insecure about. There are some, like, where they had to really dig out some tumors. It's just concaved in some spots. But the mastectomy scar is the big one. And I was like, you know what? I was thinking about all the other women who have the same scars and that I was probably insecure about them because it's something that so many women are insecure of. And that had kind of gone into my subconscious, and I just thought, I'm not. This is. This is. This is going to be proof of how hard I fought. And I'm. I'm proud that I fought hard. I fought really hard to be here, and I fought hard for my. My baby. And I. I came out the other side dropping a lot of emotional baggage and being kinder to myself. And this was just another moment that I said, I'm not going to carry any more emotional baggage if I have. If I. If I have the strength to. Because it is strength to let go of that emotional baggage. Right? People think that, like, it's heavy on your shoulders. Why don't you get rid of it? Why don't you just drop it? But you said something earlier, but now this also reminds me of it, is that, you know, when you're. Oh, when you're talking about getting into the. The same patterns because it's something that you had grown up with or something that happened to you when you were younger. So you keep doing that because you're familiar with that pain. I had realized that I think of it like bad posture, right? When you have bad posture. When you have bad posture, you start to. Your back starts to curve over your shoulders, come in. And if you try to sit up, it actually feels uncomfortable and it's kind of painful because your muscles are needing to work. So then if you keep. You. If you ignore that pain and you try to move away from that pain, you go back into your. Your hump back, right? And you need to sit up straight to. To strengthen those muscles. And it's really comfortable to be bent over because that's how you've been living. But if you keep doing that, eventually you will just bend completely over. You'll lose your posture. So you have to do the things that are tough to strengthen yourself so that you are on the right path and standing straight. And. And that was just another moment when I was like, I'm not gonna. I. I'm not gonna carry it. And I wanted to do that for other women who had this. And I wanted to send them so much love. And, and the response. Yeah, so you was incredible.
- [51:55]
A
For the maybe one person listening who didn't see it, the campaign was you proudly letting your. Your scar show.
- [52:03]
B
And again, that was not. That was not the. That was never on.
- [52:09]
A
That was any plan.
- [52:10]
B
That was never on any of the. The creative boards that they had. And I actually, I thought of it and I. I said to them, I think I'd like to do this. And they. They went and talked and they came back and they said, if, you know, are you comfortable with this? And I said, yes, I'm ready to do it. And they were really compassionate and was like. They were like, I want to make sure that you're. That this is really the path you want to go down. And they also said, and if you don't like it, in the end, we'll kill those photos. And there was just such peace. And the other women around, really understanding what it's like for me, even if they didn't go through it, they understand what it's like to have your breasts taken off of you and, and then have scars on your body. And. And it was just. It was just such a. A caring, loving environment. This one guy came, came up to me at the grocery store, and he. And he had seen it, and he said, you know, my mom has those scars. And I showed her the photo, and it made her feel really good. He goes, but he goes, it made me always sad to see those scars on my mom, and now I don't feel sad for her. And I was like, oh, yeah. Like, you know, it's. Sometimes it's the perception of other people looking at you and looking at that scar that came.
- [53:32]
A
And also sort of, I know for me, or my experiences, like, somehow being able to use my pain to help ease other people's suffering has probably been the most humbling and gratifying experience in my life. You know, in that way, I mean.
- [53:51]
B
That is so true, because I didn't truly realize that until this. And, you know, the reason is because I've gone through experiences in my life that I like. Some of the stuff we're talking about earlier that I feel could. Could reach out to other people going through it or help other people try to avoid that situation or recognize when it's happening. But so many things can be misconstrued. Somebody takes, you know, we do this whole interview and. And everybody has good love going out, and then you've got other people taking one little thing that we said and running with that. And that's just part of being in the public eye and something you have to deal with. But that's a big reason why I never, I was like, man, someone's gonna take this and, and twist it around. And I know.
- [54:35]
A
I, I, that was like a, A skill I had to develop, too, Becoming a public person of that.
- [54:41]
B
And what was that skill?
- [54:43]
A
What is that skill? Well, I don't know that it's a beneficial skill, but it's thinking 10 steps ahead about what you are about to say, you know, and so I find that exhausting. And I also, I think also, too, there was. I had another layer of it around, I guess, like, really sort of unintended puns or, you know, language that I, I was concerned about when I gave my TED Talk. I remember being worried about. I don't know why this making me emotional. Look at what you're doing to me. Bringing all my emotion to the surface.
- [55:28]
B
This is what we need, everybody. I mean, but I, I remember the.
- [55:33]
A
You know, they give you those mics that, like, go on your thing. And I was, I remember being really embarrassed and having to kind of quietly ask the line producer there, like, is there a shadow? And I was really worried that it would look phallic on my face. Like a phallic shadow on my face. And so something like that, you know, those are the filters. It's the same kind of a. Thinking ahead about something. Exactly. What you're saying about how people take, you know, something out of.
- [56:04]
B
I completely understand that. And it's something that nobody else would think about, but they would think about it if it did look like that.
- [56:10]
A
Right, right.
- [56:11]
B
And all of your good intentions would be focused on that.
- [56:14]
A
Yeah.
- [56:15]
B
And. Yeah. And I would sometimes tell a joke about something because it was too painful to talk about, or I would like. And, and then it could be misconstrued as me being flippant or disrespectful. But you're like, no. There's, like, sometimes gallows humor.
- [56:31]
A
It's like, if you can't, if you can't laugh, like, you laug.
- [56:34]
B
Or cry. I.
- [56:36]
A
So I want to, I want to ask you something of. It's, it's kind of. It's like a bigger question, and there's another piece of it inside it too.
- [56:47]
B
So I'm ready.
- [56:48]
A
Okay. Which is.
- [56:49]
B
I.
- [56:49]
A
So, so I'm really curious about this piece between. Well, I guess I'm making an assumption that when you go through something like cancer, you feel like your body's betraying you. And I also am curious about that around if, if there were any of your experiences that were impacted by the fact that you also have been seen as this like you know, sex symbol and a hottie and was part of then that sort of other piece of.
- [57:20]
B
It of like part of your like identity.
- [57:23]
A
Reclaiming your body really in ways and your identity with that, with the photo shoot and with, with the ad just sort of did that bring you back to yourself in a different way or those completely separate things?
- [57:35]
B
From the beginning I just took a hold of the opportunities that were given to me. And in the beginning that was an image that was more sexy and that was my choice as well. But it never, it's not that I didn't feel sexy. I always felt like it was okay to embrace your sexuality and now you look at it because people are so successful off, you know, off of that and there, there are people who started in that world and, and now, you know, own a $4 billion company, you know, and so, and are on the COVID of Vogue and are really embraced by everyone. But at that time, when I started in The Public Eye 2006, you could really be one or the other. You couldn't be artistic and respected and also be in a bikini and, and play into any sexuality that you had. And it became a self inflicted public identity, if that makes sense. Yeah, it was. I didn't have to accept the opportunities, but I did. I never ignored the, the part of me that could feel sexy. I just never felt that that's all I was. When I got onto the Daily show with Jon Stewart back in the day, there was a little uproar about like, ah, we want more women but not that woman. And I remember going back to that time, right. If I'm thinking about that time, it was like 2010. And that's kind of when I, I stopped not doing not embrace my sexuality in that way. I don't think I have to think back but, but I wanted to take the opportunity to take my career more seriously and, and, and to be more thoughtful about the things that I said. And I knew I was given this amazing opportunity and I wanted to do my best with it, which is what I always was trying to do, you know?
- [59:42]
A
Yeah. Do you feel like, because we've talked about this before, like both of us having a love for Sloan Sabbath. Do you feel like that role actually in a way, sort of married? Because when I talk about you behind your back, I will say like you're more like Sloan Sabbath, I think because you're brilliant. You're really brilliant.
- [60:03]
B
Really smart. Not Sloan Sabbath brilliant. That's a. I need Aaron Sorkin to write every single thing I say.
- [60:09]
A
Well, I think we'd probably all like that. But do you think that role. Because that was sort of where I first saw you as an actor. In fact, it was my mom who told me about the newsroom. She was like, you have to see this Olivia Munn girl. She's beautiful and incredible and all those things.
- [60:27]
B
That was Aaron Sorkin's writing and credit to her.
- [60:31]
A
I see so much of you.
- [60:32]
B
No, no. I was saying, obviously, every actor brings their own thing to it, but he had to write a character that was there, and the way that I chose to play it was what he saw. And thank God it was that way, because that's the only way I wanted to do it. The pilot episode, which I'm not in, I show up in the second episode, but I was originally in the pilot episode, and the costume designer at the time put me in really frumpy. Like, I think it was, like, a turtleneck and an oversized blazer and beige pantyhose and like. Like, a long skirt. And it was really, like, overwhelming. And the costume designer had said to me, we need people to take you seriously because you're the smartest person in the building. Sorkin writes that in there. And so we got to have, you know, you can't be seen in a sexy way at all. And it was my first big show, so I didn't say anything. I said, okay. And I felt like I looked so, like, inappropriately, like, aged. And I was like, this is not okay. And. But I did it. And it wasn't until we got picked up to series and the new costume designer said, do you like what you were wearing in the pilot? And I said, no. And she said, well, let's start again. What do you want? And I said, you know, I think about men who are really well dressed, and they're wearing their Hugo Boss suits that. That's tailored to perfection, and they look handsome. And no one's saying that we don't trust or believe that they're smart. I said, so I would like to wear fitted suits that are tailored to my body. I'd like to look nice, look sharp. I don't want to wear any big, flashy jewelry, because for me to deliver the news, I didn't want anything to be distracting to the information that my character was giving. That's what I thought my character would do. I thought my character would not wear anything Flashy, but she would wear her tailored suits. And because of how I had seen my life play out in the public eye, my number one goal with my character in that second episode, I wanted my first thing we see me, it's this big, long walk and talk that I have with Emily Mortimer, who I love. And I said, I want people to judge me as soon as they see me.
- [63:05]
A
Wow.
- [63:06]
B
But then I want them to realize they made a mistake as soon as I start talking, because I have that amazing Sorkin dialogue and that I could deliver it.
- [63:17]
A
Yeah.
- [63:17]
B
And I knew I could do it. I knew that this is a role I could do, and I knew that I could take on his dialogue. And I had, you know, not only did act brilliantly. Thank you.
- [63:26]
A
I would. I've always been more of A. A MacKenzie, but wanting to be more Sloan Sabbath, but, you know.
- [63:33]
B
Well, and you. You have that kind of writing. And, you know, for me, it was. It really spoke to me because, you know, Sloane wanted justice, and she wanted things to be right. And what was right was right.
- [63:43]
A
Right. Do you think Aaron found, like, saw something in you that. That you didn't see in yourself yet that that sort of ended up in the character?
- [63:54]
B
That. It was that, you know, he. I didn't realize how I can kind of go from very serious to, like, making a joke right away. I just wasn't really thinking about that in the way that I. I would move through the world, and. And he really. He picked up on that, and he started putting those layers into, like, I'd be in the middle of something that was really upsetting and passionate as the character, and then he would throw in some line that had to bring in some levity, but also had to, you know, my character had to deliver it seriously. He really works really hard to hear how the actors are performing his words, but at the same time, he's very locked in. He's like, this is. This is what I want to put out there, so you need to do it. If you can capture his vision, then you don't get any notes, you know, And I. I wait, you had.
- [64:54]
A
You had a time where you never got notes?
- [64:55]
B
No, no, no.
- [64:56]
A
Okay.
- [64:57]
B
I didn't get. I was about to say this. I was. I'm not a trained actor. Like, I didn't.
- [65:03]
A
Oh, really?
- [65:04]
B
I didn't go to Broadway.
- [65:05]
A
You went to journalism school, right? Or.
- [65:07]
B
Or. No, I went to. Yeah, I graduated with a BA in journalism, so did.
- [65:11]
A
Okay, did that. Did you bring in the role?
- [65:14]
B
Yes, because I. You know, on the Daily Show, I Played a fake reporter. And on the newsroom, I played a real reporter.
- [65:20]
A
You have a new show coming out, you, friends and Neighbors on Apple tv.
- [65:23]
B
Yes. It's with Jon Hamm, Amanda Peet, and this other amazing cast of fantastic actors.
- [65:30]
A
You must have had a great time on set.
- [65:32]
B
I did. I loved it. I loved it. I've been a big fan of both Amanda and John's for a long, long time. I remember Amanda back when she was on this show called Jack and Jill when she first came out, and this was like. Do you remember that? This was a time when we only had four, maybe five networks. So if you're an actor and you get onto one of those, it's a big deal because there's only so many shows.
- [65:54]
A
Yeah.
- [65:55]
B
So I remember watching her and falling in love with her and like, oh, she's the best. And then we met, and of course, I talked to her about Jack and Jill a lot, and she's like, that is. So no one's talking to me about that, but her and I got along so great. And John, this is such a fantastic role for him, and I love working with him so much. He's an executive producer on the show as well, so I know that he had a hand in casting me. Yeah. I was the first person cast after they announced him.
- [66:24]
A
Wow.
- [66:24]
B
And so I was a bit nervous because I was like, that's. That's a pressure and the.
- [66:31]
A
And the point. So just, like, timeline wise, in 2021.
- [66:35]
B
I had my son Malcolm. And then. And then in 2023, I was diagnosed with breast cancer.
- [66:41]
A
Right.
- [66:41]
B
And then I started filming in April and in the middle of April, and I had actually gone through my fifth surgery. Oh, my God.
- [66:50]
A
How many surgeries in total?
- [66:52]
B
Five. Wow. And that last one was an ophorectomy and a partial hysterectomy where I had my fallopian tubes and uterus taken out. Wow. And. And that was because the medicine that I would be having to take for five years was going to suppress my ovaries. And it was just. It was next level.
- [67:15]
A
Yeah. I think we had dinner, actually. I was. Yeah.
- [67:19]
B
And you were trying to, like, I was just comatose.
- [67:21]
A
Make a decision.
- [67:22]
B
Yeah.
- [67:23]
A
About the. The medicine.
- [67:24]
B
About that. Yeah. And so anyway, so then I have that. And then. But in January, we had already done the embryo transfer with our surrogate.
- [67:33]
A
Okay.
- [67:33]
B
So I knew. We knew that the baby was coming and healthy. Okay. Yeah. And then. So then by September, May. May enters the world. Okay. My little. My little dragon. You're the dragon.
- [67:43]
A
Yeah. And and had you gone public about your cancer before you were shooting this show or was right before.
- [67:53]
B
Okay, right before. Okay. I did tell our creator of the show about it.
- [68:00]
A
Okay.
- [68:00]
B
And I kind of was like, hey, this is what's going on with me. I feel really good. I know I can do this. But I just wanted to be like, heads up. And he was. His name's Jonathan Tropper and he is. That was my best experience on a set when it comes to, like, how easy and collaborative it is and how. How caring everybody was to my situation.
- [68:24]
A
I'm so proud of you.
- [68:25]
B
Oh, thank you so much.
- [68:26]
A
I feel like we're sitting on your sofa. I'm like imagining us sitting on the sofa with the Edward Thai food.
- [68:34]
B
I will say. I'm so surprised. You, Monica Lewinsky, have no crystals in your studio.
- [68:40]
A
I know, because.
- [68:41]
B
What is that a choice?
- [68:42]
A
No, it's. What it is. Is that there. I don't have like a studio. Stu.
- [68:47]
B
We.
- [68:47]
A
It's sort of.
- [68:48]
B
You move around.
- [68:49]
A
Yeah. So this was.
- [68:50]
B
But did they move these chairs so they could move a crystal?
- [68:53]
A
So. Yeah, guys, I know.
- [68:55]
B
Way to break your back on her crystals.
- [68:57]
A
I probably have one in my purse. Well, actually, I have one for you because I'll give it to you after I give all my guests a crystal. Just as an exchange of energy.
- [69:05]
B
Oh, that's so sweet.
- [69:07]
A
Okay, well, I'm gonna ask you our final question that we ask everybody. So, like, to know, like, is there anything that you're working on reclaiming right now and that could be, you know, something personal or. Or a physical object, Anything that you feel in your life.
- [69:25]
B
Great question. This is cliche, but I think that sometimes things being so cliche, something being said in the world so long, it kind of doesn't. It doesn't really register. You don't really know how to take it in. It just feels like one of those things that people say. But to truly be present and I, you know, with my anxiety that I had for so long, you know, realizing that I was never enjoying the day. I was never being present in the day. So every day I was wasting it because I was worried about tomorrow. Two months, one month, a year. And I was regretting things I did the day before and the week before and months and years before would still stay with me, you know, looking at my two babies and I. And, you know, it's difficult when you have two, you know, because my three year old has completely different needs than my four month old. And I'm. I'm being torn in two different directions. When I was younger, I used to say to myself, what would the 80 year old me say to the 27 year old me? Or what would the 80 year old say to the 19 year old me? And like, it would a lot of times and didn't mean that I took this advice, but I would be like, get out of this relationship. Don't be so hard on yourself. It would just be like, this doesn't matter, your whole life is over. You know, not 80 or 90. Right? Sometimes people get to 100, but it was like the majority is gone. And you, and you, you should have just moved on because, you know, it's, you're wasting time. And so now every time I get frustrated, which is actually very seldom because of, because I, because I've gone through cancer and I was so scared I, I wouldn't make it through for, you know, all the reasons. But. So the frustration isn't something there. But being tired is something that I experience a lot just from everything I've been through and the medicine I have to be on. But whenever I feel tired or I'm like, oh, he made this mess, or oh my gosh, like he threw his food and like my new white couch is like, like decimated, I think about being 80. And if I was granted a time machine to go 40 years back and they said, we're going to give you 40 years as a gift, you can go back and do it again. That's what I think about every time. And I think I would not be on my phone. I'd be sitting here looking at his little face, looking at her little face. I would say, make the message. I don't care. I will not remember the mess when I'm 80. I will just want to be here. I want to live every single moment. I want to all. Every time you throw a fit, I want to, I want to experience it. Every time you, you want to put on the TV and watch, you know, Daniel Tiger, like, I, that's, that's fine with me. And every time you want to go, like, not like the. It made me really, it makes me really realize, like, how fast life will go and how lucky I would be if I got all this time back. So actually in this moment, I, I do often think and I try and I do, it comes into my mind really instantly. I think, oh, I've just been, just been given 40 years. I've just been given 40 years to do it all over again.
- [72:45]
A
Wow.
- [72:46]
B
Oh my God, what am I gonna do? So sometimes when I can't Help the insecure thoughts that come in or the worrying that comes in, or will people take this the wrong way or will they go back and in time and try to put me back into a box? Will I allow myself to be put into that box whenever those thoughts come in? And they do come in, obviously, because it's been how I've viewed myself and thought about for so long, but I push them out right away. And if sitting here today, somebody said, hey, I'm gonna give you 20, 30 years to go do it again, we would know how fast it goes by.
- [73:27]
A
Yeah.
- [73:28]
B
And when we were younger, when people would say, oh, you know, it goes by in a blink. It. It really does. It does. It just does. Yeah.
- [73:38]
A
All right. I'll try and be present more also.
- [73:42]
B
I mean, especially for you. You know, you. You know, you've been in the public eye for so long and had to endure so many things, and I'm so excited for you, for everything. But I met you when I was like. I was, like, blown away that you had started this relationship and career with Vanity Fair and you really reclaimed your voice because it is so understandable if you said, I just want to put my head down and never be seen again because it was so, just so unfair what happened to you. And. And you really are taking advantage of every opportunity and being very present. I mean, obviously, we. We kind of, we, you and I, we've talked many times about a spiral. But. But the fact that you. You're getting up and you're going to work and you're doing these really exciting things is like, that's the first step. If there are some parts of your life that you can't be. Can't stay in the present for and that you're holding on to, at least, like, for you specifically, you are full steam ahead with this other big part of your life.
- [74:50]
A
Trying.
- [74:51]
B
I'm a try doing, Doing fantastic.
- [74:54]
A
Thank you so much, Olivia. Oh, my gosh.
- [74:57]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [74:58]
A
Thank you so much. So just a small PS for this episode, after chatting with Olivia, I went and did the breast cancer risk assessment tool myself. I think that's what it's called. If not, just Google Olivia Munn and breast cancer test and. And it will come up. And thankfully my numbers were low, but it was a really great reminder to do something like that. So maybe you also want to, too. Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production Services by WTF Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin, and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis. For Wondery, Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez, Wren and Emily Feldbrake, and executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty and Marshall Louie.