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- [00:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:21]
Savannah Guthrie
Hi.
- [00:22]
Monica Lewinsky
You might recognize this episode's guest, Savannah Guthrie, as co host of the Today show, but she's also had this amazing career as a White House correspondent and NBC legal analyst. And now she has a book, out in the World, about faith. As someone who has personally struggled with that topic, I was really curious to sit down with her. Anyway, I hope you find something in our chat to connect to. And thanks for joining us on Reclaiming. I was thinking about how you've been a really important part. Oh, it's gonna make me emotional. You've been an important part of my reclaiming journey because in the last decade, there were just a number of things that in order to move forward, I had to kind of put on my big girl pants, go on live tv, which is a scale, scary as it seems. And you just, you helped me. And so not that other, you know, journalists with whom I've sat before aren't great, but there's just been something really special about you, and I've just really appreciated, you know, that, that you created a safe space. I knew they weren't going to be gotcha questions and also want to make clear you have absolute journalistic integrity. So. But you've just, you've created this safe space. And so it's been really meaningful to me. So thank you for coming on here.
- [01:54]
Savannah Guthrie
Well, it is one of the joys of life that we get to be friends and we have made a friendship over these past years. I think I tried to date you first. I just remember seeing years and years ago when you at long last sat for a documentary and we got to hear you. And I remember being so blown away by your intelligence, your grace, your thoughtfulness, your wisdom. And I just was just captivated by you. And I didn't know you personally at all, and I wanted to reach out to you. I wasn't trying to book you or any other thing. I just was like, I have to write her and tell her how much I admire her. And so I think that was the first time that I reached out to you. And then years later, we've had a chance to do interviews. And I just, I'm so glad that I've gotten to know you and you're exactly who I thought you were.
- [02:59]
Monica Lewinsky
Aw, thank you. Thanks. I think our friendship, I've gotten to know Mike a bit Your husband and your adorable kids, Charlie and Vale.
- [03:07]
Savannah Guthrie
Yes. You've been to my house.
- [03:09]
Monica Lewinsky
Exactly. Which is fabulous. And then I think one of the ways our friendship really blossomed, too, was at the Vanity Fair Oscar party when.
- [03:17]
Savannah Guthrie
We both were hobbling around because we couldn't stand in our shoes.
- [03:20]
Monica Lewinsky
Exactly. Because nine hours in heels will do that to you. And I was thinking about. Because we also go hunting for the In N Out burgers there.
- [03:27]
Savannah Guthrie
Of course.
- [03:28]
Monica Lewinsky
And if we had been in LA doing this interview, I would have brought you an In N Out burger.
- [03:33]
Savannah Guthrie
Oh, I would have loved that. In honor. I know. We. I think you and we both feel we get to go to that Vanity Fair party. And it's so fun. I myself, I feel like Forrest Gump. Like, what am I doing here? How am I in this somehow in this situation? But it's really fun. And then it's fun when you see someone that's, like, your real friend, and you can just go pal around.
- [03:52]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [03:52]
Savannah Guthrie
I think we look like sometimes we just lose Mike. We don't know where he is. He's like, I'm with Monica now. So bye. Fence for yourself. You'll see us over by where they're handing out the In N Out burgers.
- [04:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Exactly. Exactly. But one of the things that was so shocking to me about getting ready for this interview is I came across this quote of yours.
- [04:11]
Savannah Guthrie
Ooh, always frightening.
- [04:14]
Monica Lewinsky
I love D.C. i loved politics, and I had even lived in a Georgetown dorm while interning in Washington. Is this true?
- [04:24]
Savannah Guthrie
Yes. Were you.
- [04:25]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay, where were you? An intern.
- [04:27]
Savannah Guthrie
Oh, my gosh. I can't believe. This is so. You're making me laugh. Yes. I was an intern on Capitol Hill in the summer of 1992 for Senator Dennis D. Cancini of the great state of Arizona, where I'm from. It was. Oh, I loved being there. It was just I was always interested in news and politics. So to be there and run around with all the other interns and have fun and get into a little trouble.
- [04:53]
Monica Lewinsky
Not like my trouble.
- [04:54]
Savannah Guthrie
Well, okay. But you know what? Maybe that's why I always, you know, you can find trouble.
- [04:58]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [04:58]
Savannah Guthrie
Or trouble might find you. Anyway, so, yeah, I did it and I loved it. It was really fun. And then I, years and years later, came back to Washington and went to law school there. And then. That was really. Once I started, I went to Georgetown, and then I stayed on the East Coast. So I haven't lived out west where I grew up in decades now. That was the start.
- [05:16]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay. It is an incredible city for young people.
- [05:18]
Savannah Guthrie
Yeah.
- [05:19]
Monica Lewinsky
I think it gets a bad rap for the older people there and the politics, but it is, it's sort of that really interesting mix, I think, of what's the right way to phrase it. It's sort of like youth stepping into the real world in the way that when you go to college, it's that first experience of, oh, I'm an adult now. And that feels like a second thing. You think you know everything and you really don't.
- [05:44]
Savannah Guthrie
Well, really vibrant because you have a lot of young, smart, ambitious, interesting people from. People come from all over and because there is, I mean, Washington runs on interns and young staff. And so there's this kind of culture and there's a lot of fun to be had, a lot of friends to be made, but people are also working really hard. And as you're suggesting, it's like there's an education going on well beyond what you're learning at work, but just about what it means to adult. Yeah, as the kids say.
- [06:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Exactly. I did not know that you were actually born in Australia, that you were raised in Arizona and you have two siblings. Right. And then when you were 16, your dad suddenly passed away.
- [06:28]
Savannah Guthrie
Yes.
- [06:29]
Monica Lewinsky
And so I know that, that you've talked about your sister, I think, said that God was the sixth member of your family. How did losing your dad affect how you looked at permanence and impermanence and your view of the world?
- [06:44]
Savannah Guthrie
Yeah, I mean, that is an earth shattering moment. I think probably at any age, but definitely when you're a 16 year old junior in high school and you come home one day and your father is gone. And that's what happened. You know, it was a Friday night, you know, I'm out with my friends, I had a midnight curfew. Usually I'd come home and the lights would all be dark and I'd have to peek my head in the door of the bedroom and say, mom and dad, I'm home. And this Friday night I came home and the lights were all on. And I knew it's just this, this way that, you know, I think we, our instincts and our gut, it's like I. You could feel it in the air. I knew something was wrong. So, you know, that was shattering in so many ways. And I think grief is a funny thing. I think there's a lot of ways in which I have a lot of grieving to do because I think I tried to just move forward and I did, but it changed everything for me. And you know, it's like when you look at something like that that's so integral to your life. It's sad, and it's a tragedy, and it was something to overcome. And then also, I can see with decades of perspective that there is a way that you're changed that is, you know, there's a famous saying about, you know, stronger in the broken places. And I would say everyone that I know and love and respect, like, you are more beautiful in the broken places. And that when something like that happens, it changes you and you have an awareness. And I remember times as a young girl looking around at my friends and thinking, you know, I know something that they don't like. I know something about sadness. I know something about grief. And that was hard. But ultimately, I think that's helped me in my life in many ways because it certainly matured me. But also, in my job as a journalist, it's. I mean, I'm constantly meeting people in the throes of crisis or grief or sadness. And rather than being afraid of those moments, I know what it's like to be on the other side of those moments, and I know that you aren't. It's okay to greet someone and to meet them and to talk to them. You know, I think one thing I thought when I was a kid, it was like, nobody. All my high school friends, they didn't know how to talk to someone whose father had just died. Yeah. You know, so nobody would. I still don't. Yes, I still don't. Yeah, so. So people don't talk about it, and I understand that. But what I realized, and I remember thinking it Even then, at 16 years old, there's nothing you could say that would make me sadder than I already am. So go ahead and say it. Go ahead and say, hey, I'm thinking about you, or I hope you're okay. Or I remember one girlfriend maybe a year or two later said to me, you know, Savannah, I just wanted you to know that I really remember your dad. And I remember coming in and he would always make jokes and made me laugh, and I just, you know, I think about him a lot, and I just wanted you to know that. And I was so relieved and grateful that she remembered. It was like, you want that person to be remembered. So that's a long winded answer for your question. There's a lot there. But it's like, that's. That's grief. Any adversity, anything. And sometimes it takes years and years, and that's the part of reclaiming. Yeah, but that's the story of reclaiming, and that's the Story of life really is those that adversity and the long, sometimes decades long path of overcoming.
- [10:21]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, it's interesting. I'm sure my, you know, phone was listening to whatever I've been talking about, reading the questions and things that we have for you, because I was served on Instagram this morning, this quote, I'm going to butcher it, but it was something like, grief is not about loss. It's actually about love, 100%. And I just thought that was such an interesting perspective shift and it's so.
- [10:46]
Savannah Guthrie
Important and in those early years, it's almost impossible to have that perspective. I would never ask that of someone newly grieving, you know, to, well, embrace your grief or see that it's love. I mean, if that does heal or comfort, than wonderful. You know, I don't think for me in those early moments it would have spoken to me like it does now.
- [11:07]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [11:08]
Savannah Guthrie
Because the truth of the matter is, you know, I'm 53 years old now. I was 16 then. When I can touch my grief, I'm grateful. If a thought of my father brings a tear down to my eye, I'm grateful because it means he's being remembered. It means I'm in touch with my love for him. And that is what it is. I've said before I started to think about grief like a cup. Like a cup of water that I thought grief is this cup of water that is full right now. And I will spend the rest of my life dropping that water out of the cup. And not until the end of my life, till I breathe my last and I open my eyes in the next world will that last drop come out. And sometimes that drop of grief comes out in buckets and gushes, and sometimes it's just a little splash, but I will always carry that little cup with me. I will always have my grief with me. I will never be the same. But now it's who I am and it's a feature of my personality that I'm grateful for. And yeah, it's. But it's a. It definitely is. It's love overflowing. When I see tears and tears of grief from like. Yes, that's. That's an honor to the person that we lost that we remember. You.
- [12:25]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I mean, you. We're going to talk about the two books you've had come out in the last year or so, but I actually. And one of them is a children's book, but I think that could be a really interesting children's book too, about your. Your grief cup.
- [12:41]
Savannah Guthrie
Yeah.
- [12:42]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, both Children and adults. You know, I don't know, maybe there's something. Yeah, but yeah, I'll expect a dedication.
- [12:50]
Savannah Guthrie
Yes, of course. Or maybe you should write it. Or maybe we should do it together.
- [12:53]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes, exactly.
- [12:54]
Savannah Guthrie
Because there are all kinds of grief.
- [12:56]
Monica Lewinsky
So going through that. You then went to University of Arizona? I had to mention it because two of my producers are alums. From there.
- [13:03]
Savannah Guthrie
Okay, bear down.
- [13:06]
Monica Lewinsky
And then from there you got a journalism degree. Right. And got immediately started working as a local reporter. And then we're now to go to Missouri. Yeah, getting it. All right. Okay.
- [13:19]
Savannah Guthrie
Well, yeah, I don't know if I was nabbed. I think I was lucky to get that. I mean, I worked in local news. I went to journalism school, print journalism school, but I had a job at the TV station just part time. So I kind of got the TV bug. I ended up working in local news for about almost six years and then ended up going to law school. But.
- [13:35]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. So that's what I wanted to ask about. Like, how did that pivot come about?
- [13:40]
Savannah Guthrie
Well, that was really interesting. It was one of those moments in life. I was in my kind of late 20s, 27 years old, and I was in this point working actually back in Arizona in a good medium sized market. And television news, there's sort of, at least the way it used to be, there was this hierarchy. You start in a small, small town and then you try to the small market and then you try to move up to the medium market and then you try to move to like the top 20, like big city, you know, LA, Dallas, Chicago, wherever, and hope, hope, hope that one day the networks would spread, spot you and snatch you away and there you were. You know, that was, that was sort of the trajectory. And so I was working in a medium sized market in my hometown. It was great. I was anchoring the weekend news and reporting. But there was also a part of me that was, I knew it was kind of time to move on and try to get that job in the next big market. And I was, you know, I never really fit exactly in local news. I loved it, but I didn't look right. I, I don't know, I just, I thought, I was really afraid I'm not going to be able to get that next big job. So there was a part of me that didn't even want to try. Like, I just couldn't bear the thought of sending out all my tapes and getting all that rejection again. So simultaneously I'd covered a lot of court cases. So I thought, you know what? And this was the heyday of Court tv. Yeah, it was before OJ but after the Menendez brothers, and maybe it was during OJ it was around that time. It was like a. It was watched. Court television was a big thing. So I kind of had this idea. So I decided to take the lsat, and I thought, you know what I'll have. These scores are good for three years. I'll just have this in my back pocket. And when my contract's up, if I can't get that next big job, maybe I'll just go to law school and do something different. And the crazy thing happened. I'll try to make it quick.
- [15:18]
Monica Lewinsky
No, no.
- [15:18]
Savannah Guthrie
But the bottom line is, I took the lsat. I let all the deadlines for law school apply. I wasn't going to apply that year. I still was under contract at my local station. And all of a sudden, and I think it was February of 1999, out of the blue, I get a letter from Georgetown University, which would have been my top choice, having been an intern on Capitol Hill. I loved Georgetown. I thought it was magical, beautiful. And the letter said, the deadline is passed, but we are going to extend it till March 15. If you want to send an application, I think when you take the lsat, they send your scores and where you went to school and your gpa. That's all they really have about you. My GPA was good. It wouldn't set the world on fire. My score was, I think, very good. But again, like, there's something sometimes, I don't know that it's like some divine thing, but to me, it felt like that it was a moment where a door opened and it felt like, you know, like angels, you know? And I thought, I think I have to at least apply. This is insane. And I did. Two weeks later, I got in, and that's when I decided, you know what? I'm just gonna go ahead and try this. Because it all seems so uncanny and unexpected that sometimes the door opens and it's your job just to walk through it.
- [16:34]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. And then after law school, you went. You were working at Aiken Gump.
- [16:39]
Savannah Guthrie
Yes, Aiken Gump. I know. It can go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [16:44]
Monica Lewinsky
But then you went back to journalism.
- [16:46]
Savannah Guthrie
Yes.
- [16:46]
Monica Lewinsky
So, okay, so were you. Was this sort of a. Okay, Law journalism? Did you always know you wanted to go back to journalism?
- [16:54]
Savannah Guthrie
Well, this is. This is interesting, because I think if you really had put truth serum on me or on my tongue or. How does truth serum work? I don't know. Maybe it's a gummy.
- [17:05]
Monica Lewinsky
No, no, Perhaps it's a gummy.
- [17:06]
Savannah Guthrie
Now if I had had ingested truth serum. I think even then when I went off to law school, I wasn't done with tb. I wasn't. And I knew that. But I, I don't know, I felt. Here's what, here's a couple things happened. First of all, when I made that decision to go to law school, I had had sat down with a kind of sort of an adjunct professor call. He worked in the business and I was hemming and hawing about should I go to law school. But I'm not sure I'm done with TV and what if I never get back in? And what if this was my chance? But then what if I could never get into law school again? And he said to me very plainly, savannah, think big. And I don't know why that sort of bumper sticker slogan meant so much to me in that moment, but suddenly I knew what he meant. And I went home and I thought about it. What would it mean if I dreamed my biggest dream instead of thinking or saying, oh, I could never do that. You could never go that far, you could never be. What if I actually admitted to myself what I wished for, what my ambition and my hope was? What if I said it out loud to myself? And I did. And I said to myself, well, if I thought big for myself, I think I'd want to be on a national network and I think I'd want to be a legal correspondent or a White House correspondent. And once I said it, then I knew what to do. I thought, well then I should go to law school. And so it was always at the back of my mind. But I also, as part of this thought process was telling myself, Savannah, you have to be prepared. If you take this risk and you jump out of the television business for three plus years, there's a odds on chance you will never get back. And can you be happy being a lawyer? Can you imagine a path for yourself? And I could. So I did the thought experiment but it was always with me. It was always my big, big dream. And so when I was in law school, even in law school, I had to have a part time job. I borrowed every cent to go to law school. I had. I had to work. Of course I got a job at the local NBC station.
- [19:07]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh wow.
- [19:08]
Savannah Guthrie
And I reported part time freelance. So I would bring my law books and work like a three to. I'd go school all morning, 8 o' clock class. I'd have all this, you know, 100 pages of reading every night. I'd go work the three to 11 shift at the local NBC station. I'd be reading my, my books in between, waiting for my live chat and then get up the next morning and do it all again. Wow. And so there came a time I passed the bar. I went, I had a clerkship lined up with a federal judge. I mean, my path was set. And that dream started knocking on my door again. I mean, I don't think it ever left. But I just realized if I don't do this now, I'm never going to have the guts again. I'm not married, I don't have any kids. You know, I have a little money saved because I had gotten the law firm job. So I was like, oh, I could just freelance a little bit and try to make something happen. And so that's what I did. I quit the clerkship before I ever went in, which was very scandalous and controversial. Any lawyers listening know that you do not. You don't say no to a federal judge, and you certainly don't say no after you've already said yes. And you're supposed to come work in a month. And so that was. The judge was amazingly kind about it, but that was very, very. What's unorthodox. But I did it and I didn't get a job right away. You know, I had nothing. But things started to happen and I ended up getting a job at Court tv, which was perfect because they wanted people, all of their on air talent are attorneys and they wanted you to know how to be on television. They didn't want people who didn't know how to put a package together, who didn't know how to report a story live on scene, you know, and so I could do both of those things. So suddenly this perfect job for me just kind of fell into my lap. Well, I mean, it didn't fall in my lap. I went looking for it. But it was the right time.
- [20:50]
Monica Lewinsky
I absolutely love that think big thought experiment. Of course, the body part of me is thinking all sorts of other things, but.
- [20:59]
Savannah Guthrie
Oh, yeah, me too.
- [21:00]
Monica Lewinsky
I'll go there. But that's for drinks. So.
- [21:03]
Savannah Guthrie
Drinks?
- [21:04]
Monica Lewinsky
No, But I do love that idea. And I think it's interesting because my stomach sort of clenched a little when you were talking about that, and I thought that's something I'm kind of afraid to do, I think. And so.
- [21:18]
Savannah Guthrie
Well, see, that's really interesting. And I think that's why it's. Even though it sounds simple, it can be very profound. And I still have to remind myself to do that. But the big lesson, I think, and I always share this, actually, when I speak to interns or young people, young producers, I always say, you don't even have to. Don't tell me. In fact, don't. Don't tell your mom. In fact, it'd be obnoxious. You think you're the next Oprah. Keep it to yourself. Okay? But don't keep it from yourself.
- [21:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Right?
- [21:47]
Savannah Guthrie
Dream your biggest dream, whatever it may be, whether it's personal, whether it's professional, at least tell the truth to yourself. Because when you do, it's very clarifying in terms of the different opportunities that come your way. So I tell, you know, people starting off in this business, if you know where it is, at least you wish hope and dream you are going. You know, specifically when you're presented with a choice, okay, should I take that internship at the big network in, in New York City, or should I take that job that's behind the scenes, but it's a real job. And at the local station in the small town, well, where are you trying to go? And how do. Which one relates more to the thing where you want to go? And by the way, you think big can change over the years, and thinking it doesn't mean it will happen, but it means that you, you know, I always, I joke about it. I'm like, don't you trample your jeans. Right? The world will do that for you, you know, but like, you should at least be able to say, this is what I believe. This is what I hope. This is my biggest dream for myself. Yeah. Whisper it if you must, to yourself. But at least, no, don't be afraid. Don't settle. Don't settle in your own mind. Who cares if you're disappointed? You think you're not going to be disappointed anyway. You think you don't know. Of course you do. But if you say it and dream it and believe it and think I could, then next time that thing comes around that seems like it's going in the general direction of that secret dream you have, then you'll know. Let me just step out in that general direction and see where it takes me.
- [23:20]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, great advice. I think I was mentioning before, in the last year or so you wrote these two books. And I'm gonna look at my notes so I get them right, because they're similar in.
- [23:34]
Savannah Guthrie
They're long, wordy titles.
- [23:36]
Monica Lewinsky
One is mainly. Okay. Yeah, you tell me.
- [23:38]
Savannah Guthrie
Oh, the first book is called Mostly what God Does.
- [23:41]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [23:41]
Savannah Guthrie
And the second book is called Mostly what God does is Love you okay, so it completes the sentence.
- [23:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Got it. Okay. Got it, got it, got it. Well, I love the book. I. Both of them. I've read both. And so. But it was interesting because it got me thinking about my own faith and how I was raised Jewish and went to Sunday school and then Hebrew school in preparation for bat mitzvah and then didn't have a bat Mitzvah. And so kind of a year or so later I skipped the high holidays. And a few weeks after that my parents told us they were getting divorced. So I was 14. And I think that was the first fissure for me because I wondered was I being punished because I didn't go to the high holidays? Right.
- [24:26]
Savannah Guthrie
Wow. Yeah.
- [24:27]
Monica Lewinsky
And so that sort of wobbled me there. And then when 98 came, I didn't feel very supported by my community and I really sort of came to believe fervently that God hated me. And so I. And I believe that for a long time. And I think I slowly found my way back and reclaimed a sense of faith through spirituality and science and kind of a big universal energy that's out there. But I just, you know, where did your sense of faith come from? How have you. In times that, you know, I think you've said. I think it was the. I loved the way you. You phrased it about that there have been seasons in your life where you've had less faith than others. So how did you find your way back?
- [25:24]
Savannah Guthrie
Well, I can relate to everything you said, and I think probably most people listening can. Whether you have a lot of faith or not, whether you believe in God or not, I think there is this way in which, you know, whether we put voice to it or whatever labels we use to it, you know, human hearts are very attuned to this feeling that there is some force that we call God. And many, many times as humans, we feel not the love of God, but we feel the judgment of God, particularly when life is hard and we face adversity of all kinds of. And sometimes it can be hard to believe when you just look around the world in general and you see suffering and injustice. You just, you know, for me, I always, I think I wrote about this in the book. It's like, you know, for whatever reason I grew up in the church and for whatever reason, believing that there is a God was never my personal crucible of faith. Believing that there was a God that was good and well intentioned toward me, who loved me and loved this world. Well, there have been moments where I've had my doubts and what I've come to realize more from doing things wrong than ever doing anything right, is that God loves me and you and every human heart. That is an unassailable fact. And it has nothing to do with what I do or what you do, what I say, what you say. It has nothing to do with my thoughts toward him for or against Him. There is nothing I can say or do to change his love for me and every human heart. And that is what I wanted to write about. You know, I read this verse back in, oh, a long time ago from the. This version of the Bible called the Message. And it's a kind of famous old verse from Ephesians. And it's. You would probably recognize it and, you know, basically about, like, you know, kids should learn proper behavior from the parents. But this message translation, which is more of a colloquial kind of conversational translation, says, watch what God does, and you do it too. The way children learn proper behavior from their parents. Mostly what God does is love you. When I read that, it was a complete revelation because, see, I was imagining that mostly what God does was sit somewhere in judgment to whatever when I came and said, I'm so sorry. Oh, please save me. I did. I made this mistake that God was sitting there going, what? Well, look who. Guess you're coming back crying now or, you know, time to suffer the consequences of your action. What I had to learn again from making more mistakes, from. From not being what I wanted to be, from, you know, my own failings, from my own mixed motives and, you know, dark thoughts and all the mistakes I've made in my life. When I returned or pleaded and just said, God help me, the answer I came to receive, not always right away, was, here I am, and here I am just loving you. And it's. It's really. It's not easy to believe. It's a simple concept. It's not always easy to believe. But I have found that to be true. And when I hear what you. You're saying, and what I've thought those things many times is that, you know, God is not afraid of our doubt. I don't consider doubt to be the opposite of faith. I consider doubt to be faith being worked out. I think. I think God yearns to engage with us and our questions and is not afraid of our questions. And all that is really required is really just our presence. And sometimes that presence can look like anger, rage, sadness and disappointment or despair or exhaustion. And I think God is present to all of those emotions and those feelings.
- [29:25]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, it's Interesting. I don't know why it's coming up for me right now, but I got to talk with Tarana Burke on the podcast and she talked about that she had this thing that she called cover sins, and she took her. The sexual abuse she experienced as a kid, she internalized as having done something wrong herself. And so she would go to confession and she would sort of make up something else that had happened that was wrong so that she could then be told what to do and in her mind, and then she would double whatever the Hail Mary's or the whole thing. And it was just to. It was so heartbreaking to think about as a kid, but it just is. I don't know. It just came up for me so.
- [30:15]
Savannah Guthrie
Well, about that. It is, but it's. It's crushing. And when you think of what all of us humans do, and here she is trying to atone for something and not her fault. The God that I believe in, if he had been on the other side, would have lifted the wall and said, well, come sit with me, sweet girl. Right? This is not your fault. This. This did. No. And comforted. I really believe that. And I don't believe it. I'm not throwing it away. This isn't like some cheap version of spirituality that's like, oh, it just makes you feel bad because, I mean, hers is a case where she did nothing wrong. There are plenty of times where no, we actually did do something wrong. And the God that I know, the God of the Bible, and you know, you come from the Jewish faith, but we have shared texts is the God of great mercy.
- [31:15]
Monica Lewinsky
I think one of the things that was really interesting to me in your book so that I don't know that this was anything you were looking to kind of showcase, but in maybe essay two or three, you talk about the disclaimer in the book that you. You. That there were certain things that you were going to mention, but you weren't going to get into depth. And the reader just needed to accept that, you know, like an example was like a bajillion other people. You were married and divorced before Mike. Okay, so. And then throughout the book, in the different essays, you kind of will touch on something. You go, disclaimer, you know, remember the disclaimer. So I am constantly working on boundaries, and I just was so curious around how you set that boundary for yourself. Was there pushback from the publisher?
- [32:05]
Savannah Guthrie
You're so smart and intuitive and interesting. You're the first person. And I've done a lot of interviews about these books. You're the first person who really noticed that. And of course, it's the one thing I didn't ever want to talk about. No, no, but I'm teasing you, and I'm happy to talk about it because it's so interesting. The disclaimer was basically like, look, if you think you're gonna write about faith and try to certainly not answer but discuss some of these hardest questions, this isn't. Despite the fact that the picture I've just drawn, I did not wanna. I'm not writing a whitewash. This isn't some. There's some. I've tried to at least talk about some of the hardest subjects there are about loss and about injustice. And I try to take on all those things and just examine them and reflect on them, certainly not solve them. But I wrote in this disclaimer, you're probably thinking, what the heck do you know about any of this? I've already established that I have. No, I'm not a theologian. I went to vacation Bible school sometimes, you know, I don't know. I'm just a layperson. So take it with the grain. But also, you know, you. You might be wondering. Seems like you right now have it all kind of going for you. You know, you're married, you got these two kids, you got this great job. You know, like, what. What problems do you have? So I wanted to just say, like, you know what? I have experienced adversity, but I don't really want to tell you about the depths of that. And because some of it was just too personal and too embarrassing, which I basically said. But I also. I put some stuff in there that is embarrassing to me. Journal entries that are just, you know, so sad and pathetic and cringy and personal. But I just. I set that boundary because I felt like it needed to be said. You know, maybe it's a journalist in me, but I'm like, what's your credential? You know, what's your suffering credential? Do you really have any. And I wanted to say, yeah, I do. I don't think there's a hierarchy of pain. I'm not gonna say who had it worse. And if some. If we did, I wouldn't even be in the top, you know, But I have had my moments and I have had my sadnesses, and I even wrote in the book. Now, don't drive yourself crazy sitting there trying to imagine what it might be. Oh, did this or that thing happen in college? Did this or that? It's like, look, some things happened, and when I'm writing about them. I'm not. This isn't in a vacuum. But I don't really. I don't want to go there. I think I said it was like, you know what? I'm down here, my feet are burning on the pavement. I just don't want to tell you, like, why the pavement was so hot or how many blisters I had on my feet. Right. I don't want to give you the gory details, but I do want to share with you, and I understand that you might have these questions and maybe this won't be enough for you, but I just felt like I had to. And it's so funny because when I was writing this book, I remember I actually got a massage and I was like laying there and thinking about, do I have to talk about this? Do I have to talk about that? And I just had this whole reverie. I don't wanna talk about that. For example, I don't wanna talk about getting divorced. It was horrible and sad and it broke my heart and it took me years to recover. And I'm not blaming anyone, but I don't really wanna get into it, you know. And then so I wrote this whole thing in my mind and then I was like, could I really write this? And then I wrote it and I was like, I'm sending it off. And you know what? I never did get any pushback.
- [35:27]
Monica Lewinsky
That's great. Yeah, yeah. No, I just, I. It was such a revelation. And I think, also so important as a woman, you know, that there's this sense of. Well, first, it's interesting because we tend to, in our friendships, we bond over sharing.
- [35:42]
Savannah Guthrie
Yes.
- [35:43]
Monica Lewinsky
But this idea of public, private, that, that you're allowed to have a boundary.
- [35:49]
Savannah Guthrie
Yeah.
- [35:50]
Monica Lewinsky
And. And I. It was just really eye opening for me and I loved it.
- [35:54]
Savannah Guthrie
It's crazy because I. I think that you and pretty much everyone I ever did an interview with and sat down with respected that boundary. And I, It's. I appreciate that, you know, and I don't take that for granted. I'm so glad that you brought it up because it is really interesting. Nobody was like, well, what was it, though? Yeah, what was the thing that you didn't. You know, no one asked me that.
- [36:18]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [36:19]
Savannah Guthrie
Which is good because I didn't. It's funny that you said use the word share because, you know, at the end of day, the book I write about purpose and what. And, you know, the purpose that I felt just in general, in this very, very broadest sense, was to share, you know, share materially Trying to do my best that way. Share, give away, give away, but also share my heart. Share, be open, share. Be vulnerable. I'm trying, but it doesn't. It's hard.
- [36:45]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, I don't know. At least for one person, I. I felt all of that. And even. Even if the subject matter, I mean, I would not have picked up this book had you not been the author. So that's just not where I go. More Regency or romance novels. But, you know, but I loved it and connected and. And I was so curious, too, about. With the. The children's book. Like, you and Mike. Mike's Jewish. You and Mike have an interfaith family. And so what. What's that like for you? And did those experiences sort of lead you to want to do the children's book?
- [37:23]
Savannah Guthrie
Well, it's interesting. I mean, just like the brass tacks, when I did the. When I made the deal with the publisher to do what I call the grown up book, because adult book sounds weird in this context, but the grown up book, okay, the main book, they wanted to do a second book and mention a children's book, which I would have said no. I actually wrote a couple children's book before, but so different. They were like characters. It was about princesses and. But I actually. I was like, you know what? I think I could take these same themes and make it a children's book that's really simple and. And I hope beautiful. And that would be meaningful not just to little kids, as a way to kind of give God some airtime and bring God into the conversation. Kids have amazing questions, and they have this intuitive sense about matters of the spirit, you know, and soul, which is amazing. So it was that I'd had a vision of how these things go together. But with Mike and I, I mean, this was something that we talked about a lot when we were dating. And by the way, we dated for five and a half years. Wait for it. Because a lot of reason. And we both had commitment issues for our own reasons. You know, I met him very soon after getting separated and divorced. So I was like, here's what's never gonna happen. You know, I don't know. I can't have a boyfriend. I don't want to. So it took a long, long time. But we talked about it because of our differing faiths and because my faith is so important to me. All I know is that I'm trying to have integrity in my faith with my children and in my family. And Mike is there with me, allowing me to do that, and also keeping the integrity of his father, faith and his traditions and what they want to learn. And God is very much, as my sister said, the sixth member of the family I grew up in. I'm trying to make God the fifth member of our little family. I want to teach them about the God that I know. They're little. I'm not conducting a religious seminar, you know, a study seminar where we're like, here are the great religions of the world. I'm going to teach them the faith that I know as I know it. We say our prayers and we go to church, and they're going to learn about his faith. Faith to. And there will come a time where they may or may not see a conflict there. Every person who grows up in a faith comes to a point where they make their own choice, and I'm okay with that. And I believe when they're little, I give them the building blocks. I introduce them to this God that I know, and I trust God to take it from there.
- [39:50]
Monica Lewinsky
It's amazing. It's sort of. I mean, I think about the. So many of the traditions I had as a kid were connected to being Jewish and, you know, and so. And a lot of those memories in that way. But talking about integrity. And I do think you have so much integrity in your work, too. And I imagine, you know, sort of, unless you're a Fox News reporter, you have to keep your political views to yourself. How have you sort of straddled or do you feel you've had to do that? I think you've had to do that in your work with your faith and religion? Because I feel like I don't see talking about that a lot. But I also.
- [40:31]
Savannah Guthrie
Not out there to proselytize. I've certainly talked a lot about it in the book and we launched it on the show and so. And the show has been wonderful and supportive about that. But yes, I mean, this book is not to proselytize other than I hope it's. I hope it's appealing, you know, but that's for. It's, again, gently appealing. And then certainly as journalists, that's the job, you know, unless you work for an outlet where you're supposed to. To express your opinion. And then, fine. And everybody knows what that is, and that's okay, you know, that it's like the editorial page of a newspaper. It's existed for a long time. I don't have a problem with that, as long as it's transparent. You know, it's interesting in our world now that there will be people probably People listening right now who might say, oh, well, she isn't dispassionate at all. She isn't, you know, so that's the interesting thing. You know, bias is really in the eye of the beholder. All I can tell you is what I try to do, which is to be straightforward, to be accurate, to be fair, to be precise. You know, we used to say like, it's down the middle, but it's not really. It's more nuanced than that. It's not like you, you know, you don't.
- [41:37]
Monica Lewinsky
There is no down the middle.
- [41:38]
Savannah Guthrie
It's not down the middle. It's not like you do a story and you say, some say the sun came up this morning, others say it didn't. That would be wrong. That would be factually incorrect. And so that is more and more a situation that we have. Whereas in the old days when I was starting out, it might be like tax policy. And then you could. Everybody wants to see the tax system be more fair. Some say it should be a more progressive tax system that does X, Y, Z. Others say if you loosen regulations and you unburden business, then blah, blah, and you could have like a. Wasn't it adorable when we could have those sweet policy disagreements? And now it's so personal, you know, and now it's. And that's really unfortunate. It makes the whole thing certainly less enjoyable to cover. But that's not the point, you know, it's not supposed to be enjoyable, but I try really hard. I really do. And I know our show does. And I think that today's show is a vestige of a place where we are having a pretty highly curated, certainly the first half hour, first 40, 50 minutes, where it's almost like a nightly newscast where we're selecting these few stories and we want that credibility, that we're not coming here to hit you over the head with one thing or another. Again, it's in the eye of the beholder and I recognize that. What I would just challenge people to think about when they are analyzing whether you're, again, consider yourself of the left or the right or whatever you are, is when you're identifying bias in the people that you are receiving your news from, just to ponder and ask yourself whether it is your bias that is determining that the person you're receiving the news from is biased. So, for example, tariffs. We're reporting that most economists say in most businesses, and they're saying they're going to have to raise prices. Me reporting that does not make me biased. I'm not rooting for any particular outcome. And to the extent that there are those who have a contrary view, we include that, too. But when people say, oh, you're so biased, you just keep hitting on this, that, or the other. Maybe the bias that you're feeling is that you wish that you were watching someone who agreed with your view of the world, and that's okay.
- [44:02]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [44:03]
Savannah Guthrie
But you're hearing something different. And, you know, everybody's. We live in a time where everyone's kind of a couch media critic.
- [44:11]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [44:11]
Savannah Guthrie
I think there's good things about that because it challenges everyone to be better. And then there's some parts about it that just really aren't on the level. And it's not an honest, honest critique. I'm here for honest critique, and we all need it, and certainly journalism needs it. But you have to be honest with yourself as well about where you're coming from. Yeah.
- [44:28]
Monica Lewinsky
And I think this sort of silos that we've created and the echo chambers make it so much harder to hold differing beliefs and to examine our own beliefs or our own bias. And.
- [44:41]
Savannah Guthrie
But I find that to be so interesting. You know, I actually. And maybe this is the lawyer in me.
- [44:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [44:46]
Savannah Guthrie
You know, I find it very interesting to look at and array all of the different arguments that could be marshaled for or against something. I always want to know. I love having that intellectual discussion. Discussion without making value judgments. That's not my job. You know, so people sometimes say, like, oh, is it hard for you to keep your personal opinions to yourself? I mean, maybe, sometimes, depending on what the subject is. But I also. I always say this a lot to the younger folks coming up. It's like, you know, our opinions really are not relevant whatsoever, and the job is to be able to report an issue, learn about an issue, and your opinion really should be the last consideration that you have. You should be able to find out what the facts are. Again, what are the arguments for and against. You may come to recognize that one argument seems to have greater strength in one way or the other. And that's fine. You're using your brain, and you should. And that should be reflected in your coverage. But who cares what our opinions are? For example, like, this is probably oversimplified, but, like, if you need a heart surgery today, Monica, you wouldn't. If you're the doctor. If I'm your doctor, I don't say, like, I need to do heart surgery on Monica. I don't really like her. Yeah, it's a professional job. Your job is to do the job which is to report, investigate, deliver the facts.
- [46:14]
Monica Lewinsky
The last question that I like to ask everybody and is, what's something that you're working on reclaiming? It could be a part of your identity thing, a place, whatever.
- [46:26]
Savannah Guthrie
Is there something I loved that this question was going to be asked? Because it really made me think. But there is something that I am not currently reclaiming, but I intend to reclaim. And you are going to laugh, but I used to love to sing. And in my 20s and 30s, I sang a lot and played the guitar and. And I'm not saying I was Taylor Swift or Kelly Clarkson, but I had a decent singing voice and a lot of friends asked me to sing at their weddings, which I did. And I really loved writing music and singing and playing my guitar. And it's something that I lost along the way with working so much and then having kids and being busy and then also the fact that I am 53 and my voice is so scratchy now, I don't know what to do about it. So if I do start singing again, I'll sound like Stevie Nicks if I'm lucky, you know, and. But I think having kind of the courage to pick up my guitar and try to figure it out and sing a little bit is something I'd very much like to reclaim.
- [47:26]
Monica Lewinsky
I love that.
- [47:27]
Savannah Guthrie
It would only be for me. I'm not going on a coffee house tour, but something that I could do on my couch alone. Like I did so many, many years in my 20s and 30s.
- [47:37]
Monica Lewinsky
That's amazing. I did not play the guitar, but I used to sing too. So maybe we'll find one of those, like local choir, you know, they do.
- [47:45]
Savannah Guthrie
The group or just come over, I'll get the guitar, we'll sit on the porch and we'll just have our own little concert. I love it. What was one of your favorite songs to sing?
- [47:53]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, I don't know about favorite song to sing, but I sang at. I sang at my dad and stepmom's wedding.
- [48:00]
Savannah Guthrie
Wow. I didn't know this about you.
- [48:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes, from Phantom of the Opera. I'm forgetting the name of the song. And I actually, when I was in fourth grade, I sang Somewhere over the Rainbow as a solo in this Buckley Broadway summer thing.
- [48:17]
Savannah Guthrie
Wow, so you were a real singer. Well, you're singing Phantom of the Opera. That's real singing. I was more of like the all.
- [48:23]
Monica Lewinsky
I ask of you. That was the song? Yeah.
- [48:26]
Savannah Guthrie
So if we can play it, that could be our play out song.
- [48:30]
Monica Lewinsky
Savannah, thank you. Thank you so much for this time. This was so meaningful.
- [48:34]
Savannah Guthrie
Oh, I love being. You know, usually it's the other way around, but can I say, you're an amazing interviewer, and it was so easy to be with you.
- [48:43]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, good.
- [48:43]
Savannah Guthrie
Thank you. I love you very, very much, and I'm proud of you.
- [48:47]
Monica Lewinsky
Thanks. I love you, too. Oh, thanks, honey. Reclaiming with monica lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, monica lewinsky production services by wtf media studios. Our theme song is by ben Benjamin, and our music supervisor is Scott velasquez. Our story producer is elna Baker, and our senior producer is Megan donis for wondery. Eliza mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are candace manriquez, Ren and Emily feldbreak. And executive producers are Dave easton, Aaron o' flaherty, and marshall Louie.