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- [00:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Hi. On today's episode, I spoke with Sophia Bush. You might know her from the hit Coming of Age series One Tree Hill, or from her tireless work as an activist, or from her podcast Work in Progress. But I especially wanted to talk to Sophia because I admire how she's publicly claimed the agency to change her mind, whether it's about love or work, and to ultimately set an example for all of us of what it looks like to live in your truth. Anyway, I hope you find something in our chat to connect to and thanks for joining us on Reclaiming Foreign. Hi, Sophia.
- [01:03]
Sophia Bush
Hi.
- [01:03]
Monica Lewinsky
Welcome to Reclaiming. I am so excited to have you here and to just get a chance to connect today. I was thinking about, you know, that you like, you just. I love so much of what you have to say and what you put out into the world. And aside from being an actor and an activist, you have this incredibly successful podcast which is a great name of work in progress that, that I love, which is kind of, I feel self defining for me certainly. And I read this essay that you wrote in Glamour about a year ago and there was this incredible quote that the minute I read it I was like, oh, I can go deep, like dive deep with her and get real from the get go. And it was, I will not carry anyone's projected shame. Fuck yes.
- [01:54]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [01:54]
Monica Lewinsky
I mean that is something I work on daily, diligently.
- [01:58]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [01:59]
Monica Lewinsky
Was that in response to feeling you had been carrying projected shame and you now were, you know, sort of eschewing that, or was it you felt like people were trying to project their shame onto you and you said, no fucking way, no thank you. Like, tell me all the things.
- [02:17]
Sophia Bush
It was all of the things, Monica. And before we dive into, you know, my things, I, I love that you're doing this. I love that you move in the world in a way where you've made space for so many of us. I love that you picked Reclaiming as your theme. And I, I just for all the years that we've connected digitally and I've watched you in the world, I mean, from the reformation campaign, I was like, girl, what is going on? I love you too. I've watch make more space for us. And so I, I just really want to thank you. It's. And it's in that, right? It's, it's in that I think it's a very human desire, but I also think it's a very human need to be treated like a human.
- [03:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [03:16]
Sophia Bush
And when you are, as I know you know, and as I have certainly experienced in own relative way, when you. When you as a human are made into a headline, you are flattened.
- [03:28]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [03:28]
Sophia Bush
You are put in print, you are put on paper, you are put on social media. You are essentially steamrolled to be made two dimensional so other people can write all over you, walk all over you, text all over you. And I know it's human nature to want to talk or gossip or share or, you know, I think really even in the subconscious to be so thrilled when there's a scandal out there, because then it's not the day it's coming for you. Yeah. But I think what was so surreal for me was realizing it wasn't just the projections of that moment in time, of how people perceived in the world and in the gossip section of the world, really what I knew as a human to be the most difficult and courageous thing I'd ever had to do. It wasn't the clickbaiting of it and whatever they wanted it to be. It was like, you want this actual final freedom, this actual reclaiming of my own worth, this actual deep, diligent work, coaching, therapy, practice that has led me to say I did all the things everyone told me to do. I made the checklists and I built the life and I pinterested the house. And I did, I did it. I did it. And I didn't get happier with everything I checked. I got more and more sad. I was more and more alone. And I said, I don't think this can be it. And people will say, you know, well, then why did you fill in the blank, get married? Why did you go through with this? Why did you? Because you don't know what you don't know until you do.
- [05:27]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [05:28]
Sophia Bush
And so what I realized in the learning and also in all the projection and accusation that happened to me and that I watched happening to all the women around me going through similar things at this time, those of us in the public eye, worse, obviously.
- [05:45]
Monica Lewinsky
But, you know, even it happens on so many. It does in so many circles, in so many ways. Whatever you're, you know, you watch the.
- [05:53]
Sophia Bush
Women who aren't famous women, but who are leaders in their mom groups get shamed by the other moms, whatever it is. And I just said, what are we doing? You know, everyone says, well, life's too short. Life's too short to be Unhappy, you know, life's too short to not go for it. Life is way too fucking long to be miserable and it's way too fucking long to be terrible to other people. And so it felt really important to me to claim my right to be a three dimensional human. To say, I'm actually really proud of myself for going all the way.
- [06:29]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [06:29]
Sophia Bush
And for doing all of the work and for leaving no stone unturned and for leaning into what I believed the. The goal or the fantasy or the desire or whatever you want to call the white picket fence life could be. And then having the fucking courage to say, turns out this for me is an illusion and I'm going to change my mind. And what I pray for for other women is that they get to say, I'm allowed to change my mind. I had a woman say to me, well, happy can't be your metric for your life.
- [07:06]
Monica Lewinsky
Ooh.
- [07:08]
Sophia Bush
And I said, happy might not be your metric for your life, but if I'm not happy in my own home.
- [07:14]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [07:15]
Sophia Bush
Why am I here?
- [07:16]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. 100% good for you.
- [07:19]
Sophia Bush
I want that for me. I want that for you. I want that for everyone. I want that for people I don't agree with. I want you to be happy.
- [07:24]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes.
- [07:26]
Sophia Bush
And so there's a. I like this reframing. I think we're all finally doing about change, Loss, growth, leaving divorce.
- [07:36]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [07:37]
Sophia Bush
Fabulous.
- [07:38]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Yeah.
- [07:39]
Sophia Bush
You went all the way. You committed, and if it wasn't for you, you have the courage to tell the truth and get out. Proud of you.
- [07:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [07:46]
Sophia Bush
And I had to say that to women in my life, and I had to learn how to say it in the mirror to myself.
- [07:50]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. Yeah. No, it's such an interesting point and so relevant around this idea of being able to change your mind. You know, that there's, I think, too often, and maybe it's because of the way storytelling unfolds in the public eye that we watch so much TV or movies that there's this idea of a script and an idea of that there's one step after another. One thing we're gonna say and then we're gonna say the next. And it all has a very neat ending tied up in a bow. It's. I mean, so it is. It is so important. I think this. It's one of the things, I guess I've always. I have a lot of flaws, but something I've always kind of prided myself on is I have no problem saying I was wrong. I was wrong about something and I'm sorry, or, oh, I Learned this new thing and I changed my mind or hadn't thought about that before and the importance of that, to have that elasticity. Right. And I, I hear you talking about that in this emotional landscape, which is so, so to me. And I just, I applaud you so much for everything that you've done. And I think, you know, this was a very powerful essay and it was. Some of what you're talking about is what led to it of just you had, you know, if I misstate it then, and you want to correct me, then do. But I mean, my interpretation of what happened was you were married, you got divorced, you got into a new relationship.
- [09:22]
Sophia Bush
One of the things that was so surreal is I had my I can't do this for one more day moment. My best friend who is my, you know, life wife, partner in all things, her son is my godson, like, you know, my person, even, even now her ex husband is like, oh, I always knew I was like the second spouse. And it's really lovely because, you know, of course they had a hard time changing the context of their relationship. Going from being married to not, you know, being married, to just being co parents. And it's so healthy and nice.
- [09:55]
Monica Lewinsky
I, I have a friend who, when she and her husband separated, she had said to him, she said, I want to do this now because in six months I'm gonna hate your fucking guts if we. And so like we have children, we're gonna need to co parent. And it was just. I had not heard of anybody doing something like that and having that self awareness at the time too. And I think it served her and her kids really well at that. So it's. Did you feel in some ways that just, you know, did you feel that some of the, the reaction people were having was because you had been married to a man and now you were with a woman? Or do you think because of the character, the characters you played, the character of your relationship, which I love and I hope you write about at some point. Cause that's so interesting. The character of your relationship. Relationship and in the parasocial way. But. Or do you think it would have happened?
- [10:51]
Sophia Bush
Oh, I think that, I think the, the ability for Gossip Machine, which to be clear, is a profit machine.
- [11:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh yeah.
- [11:02]
Sophia Bush
To not only profit off of a woman, but profit off of complete 360 degree misogyny was delicious for the machine. Even my therapist who's like my absolute favorite person, he's so wonderful. And I will never forget in the middle of a conversation where I just was like, I Don't understand what to do with this. He went, dude, this is misogyny.
- [11:24]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [11:25]
Sophia Bush
Come on. And I was like, my therapist called me a dude. I've won at life. We're really in it. But you know, I think what it is as well, to your point, people like a story. They're used to an episode of tv. They're used to a movie that's gone through edits. Every production phase, it's been scored, it's wrapped up in a bow. I get that everyone wants me to run in response to their anger, but I'm gonna stay in response to my knowing, in response to this thing that's just dawned on me. And I'm going to have the courage to stand in the fire.
- [12:10]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [12:12]
Sophia Bush
And just wait. It's really. And it was scary, but special.
- [12:17]
Monica Lewinsky
It's interesting. What just came up for me was sort of this, you know, and like, thinking life. So it may come out not making sense, but I wonder if some of the rules of the patriarchy and how marriage and relationships and women have been treated throughout time. Part of that was so that we weren't able to get to this knowing. And to hear you just sounding so solid and confident in where you are as a woman, as a person in your life, with your decisions, it's just. It's just sort of an interesting.
- [12:58]
Sophia Bush
And the thing is, it's. This is in hindsight, right? You know, in hindsight, I can look back and be my nerdy, you know, space loving, metaphysical self and be like, invisible. String theory is real, I think, and, you know, all of these things. But in real time, it was so difficult. And in real time, the year, you know, from like the wedding that looked so perfect to saying, I cannot do this for one more day, I think we made the wrong decision. Still being in a little bit of the pink cloud of like, we're friends who should never have gotten married. Covid was crazy. Lockdown was crazy. So many people trauma bonded. I'm not going to say we made a mistake. I'm just going to say we made the wrong choice. And, you know, the pink cloud stuff I think wears off a little bit. But the. The confidence in a weird way is. It feels to me like the image that conjures for me is I said I knew I was gonna stand in this fire and wait. And it really felt like everything I'd carried, cloaked, picked up, put on in my whole life that wasn't actually mine burned. And I was left like the steel skeleton of who I am at my core was Left. And so I don't want to that the confidence is just inherent. It was earned and it was suffered for. But I know myself in a way that I didn't think was possible. I am still in a way I didn't think I could be. I am happy in a way that I thought was made up in books. And I real. I've looked around now and gone. Does everyone feel like this? Do other people just feel like this? Are you guys all just happy like this? And my best friends burst into tears every time I asked them that. Where, like, you know, they'll look at me and say, we've been waiting for this for you. We wanted this for you so badly. And I, maybe some people get there easily and maybe some people really take a hard road, but I, I, I know it's possible and I know how revelatory it is to begin to find it at 41 and I know how I feel at 42 and it's eons past where I was at 41 and I'm like, whoa, yeah, wait till you.
- [15:34]
Monica Lewinsky
Get to your 50s, girl excited. It, it is, I, it is amazing. I've loved it so far. I have really, how's it been?
- [15:42]
Sophia Bush
How did it feel approaching 50?
- [15:44]
Monica Lewinsky
So for me, what was really interesting was I had this, I've had a very bizarre trajectory that's like on my tombstone in my life. But I think that 39 into 40 was horrible. So awful because it was, it just my life hadn't changed yet. It felt like a, an avalanche of all the things that I had hoped I would have accomplished by 40, both personally and professionally and feeling like I just failed in every single way. And I had been trying to map out kind of a new career path, trying to accept being in the public eye. And it was like every plan fell apart, ended up being the best thing that happened to me. But so from 48 into 49, I was like, oh, fuck, here we go. Here's the nine year. All the things I haven't done my 50, blah, blah, blah. But I had had this extraordinary decade and I, it just ended up being a year full of acceptance and I even had a really big, you know, kind of career changes. I had a first look deal. I was, you know, just ready to be a producer full on. And like, okay, great, I don't have to tell my story anymore. I can tell other people's stories. And then the contraction in Hollywood and everything changing, it changed that. My situation changed and I found myself unemployed and just going, fuck, what am I going to do now. And instead of falling apart, I was really able to look back on, okay, what had happened the last time. My plans didn't. Didn't work. You know, that led to the best decade of my life. And so thus far, and I was able to go, okay, let's not freak out and see how things fall out. And it ended up being a year where I decided to do a podcast. I. I think part for me, I had to accept that every time I tried to get small in the world, that the universe was like. And me having to accept that I had a bigger role, that I still had something to say, I think because of how I came onto the public stage. Yeah.
- [18:11]
Sophia Bush
Can I ask you something?
- [18:12]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [18:12]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, of course. You. You're someone that I see parallels with in that way. It can be so tiring telling an old story.
- [18:22]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes.
- [18:23]
Sophia Bush
Like, I still get asked about something that I was put through by a man in the first year of my career, and I'm like, ask him about it. Right. And by the way, we're all adults, and I think he's grown up to be a great guy.
- [18:35]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [18:36]
Sophia Bush
But I think, I don't know, evolved.
- [18:38]
Monica Lewinsky
Or just maybe more than 20 years.
- [18:41]
Sophia Bush
Like, why are we still talking about it? But I get asked about it, women get asked about it. And in this weird way, I've really tried to go, why does this keep coming back to me? And I go, oh, is there a nugget of wisdom? Is there something about. Because, look, I was like, roll off my back. Integrity, professionalism. Leave me alone. No one's going to. Nothing's going to, you know, phase me. I'll be unflappable. And I'm like, maybe. Maybe that's why people can't let it go. Because they're like, but what? It must have been hard. You're sure that's not necessarily for you people out there? But, you know, and I wonder for us, when we've been through things in that way and you want to be done with the story, but maybe. Maybe there's something not just in the one story, but in the. In the world of you. Maybe there's something in your world, in your lessons, in your courage, in what you learned that the world needs, and maybe that's why the world won't let you get smaller. Or maybe that's why the world won't stop asking about it. Because even now, talking about, you know, this big transition I had at 41 with you, I'm like, I really want to be open because I think it's important and then I'm sitting here second guessing myself going, do I sound like I'm trying to like, justify? Do I feel like I need to explain myself? I don't have to explain myself to anybody. And hearing you just talk about that made me go, oh, is it that same thing where maybe you want to keep a little something for you, but the world needs something from you and you're in this weird push pull as a person. But a figurehead, like, how do you navigate that?
- [20:18]
Monica Lewinsky
I mean, I had to. I think I had to land somewhere that made sense for me. And I'm still trying to get comfortable with it because my trajectory into being a public person was so unusual. And that it's lasted so long, I think has, you know, has to do with the, I think the public profile of the people who were engaged in it. But I also think it was in many ways a story as old as time being told in a modern way. And it's, you know, I look at these kinds of stories that are. It's a collective story. So I think when, for me, I just think, okay, this is, this is how much the collective can move right now. This is what the collective needs from this story. So it's my story, it's the other main people's stories, but it's also owned by everybody because in many ways it was created.
- [21:11]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [21:12]
Monica Lewinsky
By so many people, you know, just like that. The, the cost of people loving to shame others and that. And that industry. I EP'd a documentary on public shaming that came out in 21, and we had incredible. Oh, thank you. So Max Joseph, our amazing director, he, you know, we had this segment where we, you might remember, we talked about the shame industrial complex and that whole thing of how shame gets commodified. And, you know, looking at the history and it is, it's both this strange alchemy of who we've always been and how we evolve at the same time. And so it's. I think that part can be hard because you do know sometimes people are asking because they're hoping they could get clickbait for something. Right.
- [22:04]
Sophia Bush
Of course.
- [22:05]
Monica Lewinsky
And then, then there are people who are. You're having a con, an I thou conversation, people watching and listening, being recorded. But it's still I thou where, you know, it is. What's coming out is about what helps other people, you know, in that way. And it is, it's, it's. And you were saying something earlier that reminded me of, I think, one of the things that's so strange about being a public person is that you have so many eyeballs on you, and yet you're not seen for who you are at all.
- [22:37]
Sophia Bush
Yes.
- [22:38]
Monica Lewinsky
And so that is. And that's what I heard you talking about, too, in your, in your story.
- [22:44]
Sophia Bush
It's almost like you get cast as a character, and if you are more human, especially as a woman, more intellectual, more outspoken, more perhaps political, they don't know what to do with you. And if they can just shove you back into that character over and over again, it's their favorite thing to do.
- [23:03]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [23:04]
Sophia Bush
And it is a strange thing to be simultaneously commodified, tokenized, and shrunken when you're a human that's growing through your whole life.
- [23:17]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. You were saying something before that that reminded me of different things you've. You've talked about with your relationship to your body and how there were times that your body knew before your mind did. And I just, I'm so curious around what your. If you feel comfortable talking about it, like what your trajectory is, what was, what kind of work you did to sort of come to recognize that, or was it more you were just slammed over and over until you got it?
- [23:47]
Sophia Bush
A little bit of both. I think. When I look at, you know, my, my younger selves that I know I carry with me, there are the younger versions of me that decided at 8 to be the, the adult in the house and to wash my hands of family things. I, I see shifts, you know, at 12. I, I see really important moments in my teens. But when I think about, I think about how I learned to be exceptional, how I learned to be the good girl, how I inhabited a lot of, you know, really classic every person story from family who comes here. You know, my dad who immigrated in the 70s, and my mom's mom who came here on a boat through Ellis island and did the, you know, the heroic, beautiful, gorgeous American dream stuff and the straight A's and the performance and the being good and the being in clubs and doing plays and playing sports and getting good grades, it was. I am, I am doing the thing that we came here for that so many people come here for. And I think because I had a lot of big, you know, feelings and ideas, the, the ability to lean into the intellectual, you know, the AP classes and, and whatnot was really helpful for me. Data Learning history helps me make sense of why I feel the way I feel in response to the way the world is moving.
- [25:30]
Monica Lewinsky
I can relate to that.
- [25:31]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, it's. It gives me a framework. And so I think I got really Good at a lot of things that were really good. And then, you know, poof, I sort of get picked up and dropped in this whole new universe of a first TV show. And, you know, I have my first public trauma. And I was not going to be ashamed or embarrassed, but it. Because I was so ashamed and because I was so embarrassed, and I really. I got so focused on be professional, remain above it. And what I didn't learn until later in my adulthood because, you know, I was 22 or three or whatever at the time, is I was learning to compartmentalize. I was learning to disassociate.
- [26:17]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [26:18]
Sophia Bush
I was learning to be early, to set and on time and to know my lines and everyone else's and to have a whole emotional life that I would leave at home. And that serves you really well in a public environment, in a TV environment, in a 16, 17 hours a day on set environment. And it doesn't serve you well in your internal life.
- [26:42]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [26:43]
Sophia Bush
And so I think I just got used to it, and I think I was in this great place turning 30, and we'd done nine years of that show and it was.
- [26:55]
Monica Lewinsky
You're talking about One Tree Hill, right? Okay.
- [26:58]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, we did nine years. So that was your first.
- [27:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Your first show. Okay.
- [27:01]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, it was my first show as a regular.
- [27:03]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, I'd.
- [27:03]
Sophia Bush
I'd worked on some movies. I did, you know, a great arc on a. Ryan Murphy's first show. And I. I was working on, you know, things here and there, but that was my first real big.
- [27:13]
Monica Lewinsky
Right, right, right.
- [27:16]
Sophia Bush
And when it ended, I felt like I was in this great place and I was ready for what was next. And, you know, I did this comedy that I loved. And, you know, we were a little ahead of our time for cbs, which is. Okay. And, you know, then I went to work on this other show that was, you know, sort of on my bucket list. And then I had this whole other trauma. I had a workplace ongoing trauma, you know, revolving around an unending situation with someone old enough to be my father. And I was like, what is happening? And when I chose to shift was because I finally had to. And.
- [28:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Can I just get clarity? Sorry. So just. Just because I'm trying to see if I'm knowing where you're. What you're talking about. So just to make sure. Was this a, like a professional inappropriate relationship or romantic?
- [28:15]
Sophia Bush
Inappropriate.
- [28:16]
Monica Lewinsky
Professional.
- [28:17]
Sophia Bush
Meant to be professional.
- [28:18]
Monica Lewinsky
Meant to be professional, but was emotionally abusive or. I don't want to put words in your mind.
- [28:24]
Sophia Bush
Every. Every kind.
- [28:25]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [28:26]
Sophia Bush
Of abusive. Yeah.
- [28:27]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [28:28]
Sophia Bush
And When I look back at it, I had the opportunity after two years to go and I did the thing I'd learned to do and said, I will not be. I. I will not have my integrity diminished by someone else's behavior. I will be unflappable. I will come to work and do my job. And I couldn't. And the next two years were like physical hell for me.
- [29:02]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [29:02]
Sophia Bush
And to go through, you know, spontaneous illness, wake up covered in hives, to have really crazy weight fluctuation, to start watching my hair fall out, to struggle with insomnia, to have such crippling anxiety, as an extrovert who loves people, to be hit with anxiety in a way that I could barely be out of the house. If, if people touched me public, I, like, I would jump out of my skin. I couldn't. I couldn't talk to people anymore. I couldn't talk to strangers anymore. I couldn't be looked at.
- [29:45]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [29:45]
Sophia Bush
Anymore. And especially in the work environment, if people came in, like if I was trying to get out of set and in a car and I got approached by people on the street, felt like a physical attack. My body was not my own and I could. I couldn't regulate.
- [30:07]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [30:08]
Sophia Bush
Anymore.
- [30:08]
Monica Lewinsky
The hyper vigilance is so exhausting.
- [30:10]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [30:11]
Monica Lewinsky
So exhausting.
- [30:12]
Sophia Bush
And. And because I had to go to work ready for war all the time, and I had to learn where to stand to not, you know, get elbowed in the ribs or how to block a scene, to not be touched or how to. It was just so.
- [30:28]
Monica Lewinsky
I'm just. I'm so sorry you had to go through that.
- [30:31]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, it was bad. And when I finally got to go, it was April of 2017. And though it had been percolating for a long time, thanks to Tarana Burke's activism, me too. Broke in July of 2017.
- [30:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Yeah.
- [30:47]
Sophia Bush
And by October, I got a call from an executive apologizing. Wow. For what they'd done and not done.
- [30:56]
Monica Lewinsky
Not done.
- [30:57]
Sophia Bush
And said, we're very aware that we just made it out of that unscathed. And I was like, glad you did. I'm in so much therapy, I've been diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder. But I'm thrilled you guys get dragged through the press. It's great.
- [31:13]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, no, it's a.
- [31:15]
Sophia Bush
It's a weird thing to deal with.
- [31:17]
Monica Lewinsky
What are you talking about? Something that feels so familiar to me is, is around in sort of these. It's like very big, high stakes situations where you sort of find yourself.
- [31:34]
Sophia Bush
Being.
- [31:35]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay with other people's, like, not Doing the right thing. It's not just people who are in the public eye who do things like this. I think people, particularly women, do it all the time. Of just being emotionally accommodating.
- [31:48]
Sophia Bush
Yes. And in a way, it's kind of a seesaw. Right. It's a great thing to be emotionally accommodating. It's a great thing to sit in a room like this and be concerned with how your crew is feeling, how their days are going, and if they're getting what they need. And you have to make sure that you are as willing to emotionally accommodate yourself as others. And that's where I think women are cultured to lose. We're often taught to put ourselves last. And my sort of my reclamation of self, of my body, of my voice, of my power, required a total recalibration. I had to say, it's not weak of me to walk away from this place that isn't serving or protecting me. It's actually the strongest thing I can do. And so I did it.
- [32:41]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [32:42]
Sophia Bush
That was a learning for me. I had to figure out how to get back into my body. And it meant somatic work, it meant breathing exercises, it meant a lot of therapy, and finally crying. It meant telling people what had happened and watching the horror on their face at the specific details and going, oh, I'm not crazy. I was just in an environment where no one wanted to hear it because it was a threat to the machine. Ah. And you see how it can happen in entertainment, you see how it can happen in academia, you see how it can happen in politics, you see how it can happen in hospital systems. You know, it's. It's not unique to be, unfortunately, a woman in any of those environments and be mistreated.
- [33:27]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [33:28]
Sophia Bush
And so it was really important for me to understand my experience and also to be able to contextualize it in a larger way. And then, yes, for me to also get in touch with my anger, because women aren't supposed to be angry. We're supposed to be amenable. We're supposed to take care of everyone else. And when I finally started to crack back into feeling my body, I was enraged. And then I learned a really valuable lesson where we talk about balance, we talk about compassion, and we talk about care for others, but also care for yourself. And I realized, oh, my capacity for compassion. The equal and opposite reaction to compassion is rage, anger. And that's actually very sacred. And I think the world stigmatizes women's anger because they know how righteous and powerful it is.
- [34:32]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [34:32]
Sophia Bush
And I had to fall in love with my rage. Wow. And when I fell in love, powerful. When I fell in love with my rage, I became the most gentle, patient, tender version of myself.
- [34:49]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [34:50]
Sophia Bush
And I was like, oh, nobody told me I would soften by getting angrier.
- [34:56]
Monica Lewinsky
I think I've still dealing with that. And I'm just so curious. I don't know if it's one of those things that you feel like you can articulate, but I'm so curious as to kind of like what were the steps? What did you do? What were. Or what was that? What did that look like for you? You know, if you. Anything you feel comfortable sharing because sometimes these things are also private and sacred and like you want to share to help other people too, but at the same time. So I could see how something like this could feel that way. I'm so curious.
- [35:30]
Sophia Bush
You know, it's interesting because the, the realization, the aha moment I get to share again happens because I've processed it and then or you know, I've done this layer of processing. I'm sure there's more in the onion to go for the rest of my life.
- [35:45]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [35:45]
Sophia Bush
But I wish it was like a step by step thing or a linear process. It's more of, you know, a doodle than a line. But the journey was full of so many things and it was a. It was slow in times. I don't think I understood that's what I was doing at moments. But I had to find it. And I, I found it in, you know, surreal places. I found it working with a healer in the desert of New Mexico on like a quiet four day quest to study from a woman who was at the time 72 and wise. And I was. I need to know what you know, I need to know how to keep growing.
- [36:32]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [36:33]
Sophia Bush
It was, you know, a spontaneous trip with one of my best friends to go see an incredible musician that we loved. We were out like dancing in a warehouse till four in the morning.
- [36:45]
Monica Lewinsky
Amazing.
- [36:46]
Sophia Bush
Shaking it out of the body is really powerful.
- [36:49]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes.
- [36:49]
Sophia Bush
You know, again, I think it's really somatic. I think, I think there was a layer even for me, I think there was a layer of anger and sadness under the veneer of growing up, settling down, maturing, doing the thing that I did in this attempt at a marriage. And I didn't get to unpack the. What it felt like to feel like I was being like I was caught, celebrated for bigness and then compartmentalized and compressed and shrunken for so long. I didn't know how to process what I was being told versus how it all felt.
- [37:35]
Monica Lewinsky
It's so interesting because I think they're kind of these different groups of people. There's some people for whom this is not an issue at all. Then there's a group of people for whom they have no idea that they have the issue. And then there are those of us who. Who. Who become awakened to this idea. You know, when I started doing somatic therapy, it was like that for me of just, oh, I never pay attention to my body unless there's. Unless I injure myself, you know, or I'm sick. And that idea of the body having wisdom, the body being, you know, just something to listen to and to understand in that way, has been. Yeah.
- [38:21]
Sophia Bush
Can I ask you something? And it might say anything, and it might be, again, if it's private.
- [38:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. No, no.
- [38:27]
Sophia Bush
But when you think about the ways you didn't listen to your body and you say, unless I got hurt, unless I got sick, now that you're in better communication with yourself. I think about it for myself, about how often I do a self inventory. I can look back and go, oh, I got sick as a reaction to this. I injured myself. I, you know, almost ripped through a tendon in my knee, or I rolled an ankle, or I had unexplained eczema for six months, or I had an asthma flare that made no sense. Cause it wasn't hay fever season where I was.
- [39:03]
Monica Lewinsky
Or a rash. Nobody knows what it is. The thing in your throat that.
- [39:08]
Sophia Bush
And I realized my body was begging to talk to me for so long, and I didn't know it.
- [39:15]
Monica Lewinsky
What's so interesting, Sophia, is I had probably one of, like, you think of as smack you in the forehead, like, listen to your body moments. But it was. I was young, and I didn't. I mean, first there's the young that I don't remember that my body does. But I think for me, really, actually the very beginning of 98, when everything was. I became aware of the investigation. The world hadn't become aware yet, but it was a. This sting operation that happened on January 16th. And I was waiting to meet Linda Tripp at the Pentagon Mall. And I was waiting, and my body was saying, leave, leave, leave, leave, leave. And I didn't listen to my good girl exactly. And I don't know. I don't know exactly what would have, you know, maybe changed if I had left and not had the sting operation and kind of learned about the investigation that day. But that was the most traumatic day of my life. And so, yeah, so it just is. It's interesting because I wonder sometimes they think about, like, if I had done that, you know, would I have gone on to listen to my body more from that moment on? Or was there just then so much trauma heaped on me that I, you know, it was like just trying to survive, dissociate and survive, dissociate and survive in that time period. But, yeah, I find myself, like, I had coffee with somebody not long ago that I hadn't seen in a long time. And I remember sitting there just going, okay, how do I. What am I feeling? You know, what is my body saying right now? And that my nervous system felt really safe, was a really like, oh, it's nice that I feel safe with this person right now. That's. That's a good feeling. So I love that the world is talking about these things now. The vagus nerve and our nervous system and, you know, all those things. And so it does feel like there's an awakening happening for people, you know, and it's part of why I think it's. I love having this show too, but getting to talk to people and letting people hear more about it, what people's different experiences have been. And so it's. Yeah, but all your hard work there. I want to pivot a little because I am desperate to ask you about. You had Michelle Obama on your podcast, and I just, you know, she's like among the many dream guests, but she's there. I just. If you want to talk about that at all, what that was like, what, you know, did anything crack open for you from that?
- [42:08]
Sophia Bush
And so much, so much. Can I give you one thing for. For a body thing?
- [42:13]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes.
- [42:13]
Sophia Bush
Sorry, I don't know who you are. No, no. I'm like, can we insert this? And then.
- [42:16]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, no.
- [42:17]
Sophia Bush
Because I want to talk about it. Okay.
- [42:19]
Monica Lewinsky
I want it all.
- [42:20]
Sophia Bush
One thing that has been really profound for me in terms of keeping a good rhythm with my body. Trevor, my dude, my therapist gave me an assignment. And I think especially for high achievers, especially for women that are learning to reclaim their own self attention, this has been a game changer for me especially. It's harder to do, obviously, if I'm on set, then I'm on other people's time. But if I'm working from home, you know, whether it's zooms or I'm admin or I'm reading scripts, if I am not doing something like this, where we're sitting down together for an hour, if I'm, you know, more in Charge of my time. He has me set a timer for 30 minutes.
- [43:06]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [43:07]
Sophia Bush
So if I open my laptop and it's, hey, you've got three scripts to read. Open, click page one. 30 minute timer. And when it goes off, it doesn't matter what I'm doing. I have to get up and walk around. If it's around the house. House. Or walk down the street and back for five minutes.
- [43:22]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay. Oh, interesting.
- [43:23]
Sophia Bush
Move my body.
- [43:24]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [43:25]
Sophia Bush
Get up.
- [43:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Yep.
- [43:27]
Sophia Bush
Take deep breaths. Just five minutes. Then I set a five minute timer and then I come back. 30 more minutes and it can be 30 minutes of work, 30 minutes of a phone call, 30 minutes on, five minutes off. It will change your life.
- [43:42]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [43:42]
Sophia Bush
And it sounds so stupid. You're like, no, no, no, no five minute timer. Not at all what it does for your body. And one of the things I realized is it is the simplest kind of commitment I can make to myself. And what I learn when I get up and I go for that five minute walk and I come back and I do the timer again, my body trusts me.
- [44:02]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [44:02]
Sophia Bush
I make it a promise and I keep it. And for every time someone made me a promise and didn't keep it, or every time I promised something to myself and then ignored it to serve others, it's like, it's the easiest, cheapest healing I've ever done is a 30 minute timer on my iPhone.
- [44:18]
Monica Lewinsky
I am 100% going to try that. That it's. I've been working on, even just sometimes when things are so busy of like, okay, I have five minutes between these two things. I'm going to rest for five minutes and just allowing myself. And it is, it's about that trust relationship with your body and your mind in that way that is so interesting.
- [44:42]
Sophia Bush
Okay, 30 on, five off.
- [44:44]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay, that's great. Okay, Now, Michelle Obama.
- [44:47]
Sophia Bush
Yes. That was so tremendously special and what it reminded me of. And I got to tell her this. As you know, we were gabbing before we started the recording years ago. I was at one of her college signing day events. And you know, I had campaigned for President Obama from very early in the first election cycle, traveled all over the country, worked on health care, worked on let girls learn. Mrs. Obama and I did work on the Girl project together, elevating, you know, women's education issues around the world. You know, I, I was so enamored by their leadership, the, the intellect and grace that they moved through the world with. The whole thing was so special. And I remember, you know, when she started working on all the college signing day Stuff every year that we could go, we would go, Nia, my best friend, who I talked about, we go together. And I was just gearing up to start work in progress. And we were, you know, backstage, and she came in the room and was like, what is going on with you? And I said, I am doing this, like, top secret thing, and I'm so excited, and I really want to have you on the podcast at some point. And she was like, absolutely. And also, our life is crazy right now. And I was like, I know. At some point, you know, and then, like, the world was nuts and Covid happened and all the things, and she's always been on my list. But, you know, again, they're the Obamas. They're busy. You know, they're producing documentaries and trying to save democracy and getting your kids out of the house and all the things. And so suddenly it was, oh, you know, Michelle and Craig are gonna do this great show as siblings and have these wonderful conversations. And I was like, oh, I wanna interview them. I wanna know why they're doing this together. And then I get a call on a Saturday night, and they say, hey, their schedules are disparate this week. We can't get a time that's gonna work for the two of them to come on the show. But she'd like to come on the show on Monday. And I was like, oh, my gosh.
- [47:02]
Monica Lewinsky
Wow.
- [47:02]
Sophia Bush
I was like, sorry, my brain just short circuited. Like, Monday is in 47 hours from now, right? And they're like, yeah, well, you know, more like 48. Because, yeah, it'll be Monday night because, you know, she's in Hawaii. And I was like, well, I'm in New York. So we make a plan to do this interview at 8pm on a Monday. And it's the. You know, my partner has two gorgeous, amazing, funny, like, stunning kids. And 8pm is Cuddle Puddle time. Like, that's movie time. And. And I'm going, you know, it's our. It's our week. What are we gonna do? There is no world in which either of us is. Is at home and allowed to be in another room. Like, it's just not happening. So we figure out a whole ruse where I'm gonna, like, go, walk out, do a thing. They're in the other room. I sneak back into the apartment. We've moved my whole podcast studio setup into our bathroom. Oh, my God. So I can close the bathroom door. I can lock the bedroom door. So even if they decide to, like, come and see what's what in the you know, in the bedroom, even though the movie's on in the den, they won't be able to make enough noise at that door to get through this door. So I am in. I look like I'm in an office. I'm in my bathroom with a desk and a full podcast set up. And I am like, this is absolutely so nuts what's happening right now. And, you know, she gets on Zoom and has just come from tennis and is glowing and gorgeous. And, of course, you can't have a Princeton Harvard grad who has been one of the most impactful and elegant first ladies in history and not talk politics a little bit. But my plan was to ask some questions about life, then to ask one question about the moment, and then to move past it and somehow, you know, the circumstances of the world or where we begin. And I said, oh, I wasn't even gonna start here, but okay, I'm gonna get the two questions I have for you about this stuff out of the way, because I really do wanna hear from you. And also, I know everyone wants to hear from you on this all the time, and it must be so exhausting, right? You're also just a lady and our favorite first lady. And we talked for a while, and at one point I go, I only wanted to spend 10 minutes on this, and it's been 22 minutes. And she goes, well, I'm long winded and so are you for whatever version, you know, that she was poking fun at the both of us because clearly we talk a lot, and we were just cackling. And I was like, okay, enough. I want to talk to you about your life. I want to know what you're watching. And what was a goal for me was to see what from this distance. You know, hindsight's our greatest teacher about our lessons. I wanted to know what she saw when she looked back. There was excellence and leadership, and there was also clearly pain, trauma, struggle. You know, the. The. The reaction. There's just the reactionary racism of this gorgeous black couple ascending to the highest office in America. And people lost their minds. And I was like, are y' all good? Like our first and thus far only black president. And you're having, like, hello. Calm down.
- [50:20]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [50:21]
Sophia Bush
Why? Why. Why are people who look like us so threatened? Like, are we okay? You know, but there's trauma there, you know, I know. I know the increase in threats they went through. I know what the Secret Service had to go through. I know how scared they were for their children. And I feel like it's been enough Time to just say, like, how are you? And. And even I. I saw this sort of moment that we. I. I clarified something, you know, for her that we didn't put in the show. But I just said, look, I want to ask you some things about parenting, particularly because I now have the bonus of being a bonus adult in the lives of these two wonderful toddlers that I love so much. And I was like, I have questions for you about babies, because toddler math is wild. Like, what is the craziest thing you guys ever had to tell your kids to get them to go to bed? You know? But also, the. The thing that didn't air is I said, I want to ask you about who you are as a woman, which also includes you as a mother. I am not interested in asking you about, like, your kids, what they're doing, how they are. That's not my business.
- [51:22]
Monica Lewinsky
Right?
- [51:24]
Sophia Bush
Their lives have been made public enough. I don't want to know what your husband's up to. I want to know how you and your husband are enjoying being empty nesters. Like, do you go on date nights? Is it sexy? I have questions. And so it was really funny because I watched her, like, I don't want to say, feel relief. I saw her feel seen by another woman in that moment, and I was like, oh, I like seeing that for you. Yeah, I love getting to be that person for you today, but I love that you're in a. In a stage in your life where you get to be seen for who you are. Not just as a mother or as a wife or as a whatever, but as you. And we just shot the shit and had a great time. I got her martini order. I was like, you're so chic and fancy. I want to grow up to be you. I want to be a martini girl. And she was like, oh, to be clear, I never even knew what that was. And then she told me this story about an early date that her and Barack went on, and he ordered a martini. And she was like, I'm a martini person now. Like, that's gonna be our thing. And as she's telling this to me, her face kind of, like, lights up a little bit. And I was like, this feels sexy. And she was like, still is. And I was like, okay. And, like, it was so fun and gorgeous to watch her get to be herself, not just a leader, right? And I don't know, it was really fun. It was. It was a. It was a very special experience for me. It felt as. As profound to me in this stage and moment. As it did for me when I first began the podcast and I sat down with Gloria Steinem and I was like, what is my life?
- [53:04]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [53:06]
Sophia Bush
20 year old Sophia, who was a journalism student focusing on journalism and political science at USC Annenberg, right. Would be so overwhelmed by this that she would be almost physically ill. Like, this is what my life became. This is who I've grown up to be, is a woman who gets to sit and shoot the shit with Gloria Steinem and like, cut to five years later and I'm sitting and shooting the shit with Michelle Obama. And I'm like, what is happening?
- [53:32]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [53:33]
Sophia Bush
You know, and then you go, okay, if again, the equal and opposite reaction. If our capacity for joy, as Kahlil Gibran says, is carved by our experience of sorrow. Like, okay, if the world is going to be hard for women in the public eye, if sometimes it's an absolute dumpster fire, but then I get to do this right. Like, burn, baby, let's go.
- [53:59]
Monica Lewinsky
The last question I ask everybody is if you are currently working on reclaiming anything, it could be an emotion or trying to find an object replacement object. Someone recently talked about finding out they were a different sun sign than they had thought they were and therefore coming to understand who they were. In the context of that.
- [54:27]
Sophia Bush
I think it's twofold for me. I am really, I am working on holding my center on, on reclaiming what I know to be true and letting anyone else's projections, opinions, alternative facts. Yeah. Exist in a, in a separate circle. Like, I'm working on really reclaiming my core and not letting it be infiltrated by other things, which is a practice for me as an activist because I, I watch our democracy being, you know, hacksawed and sold for parts. And I have to work on that because it is a calling in my life and I have to figure out how to, how to keep it. You know, if your life is a house and, and this sort of core I'm talking about is like the bedroom, you know, where you're meant to sleep. You can't let your work sleeping space. And so I'm trying to keep the activism at the kitchen table and keep my room quiet for me. And so I have this very personal reclamation of self, space, body, patience. And I have this desire to help us reclaim seats at the table and build new seats for power so that everyone can do better, so that we might balance the world a little better, so that, you know, even the guys in the room that are like, oh, God, the feminists want to come. I want to be like. It's going to be better for you too. You're going to love it.
- [56:10]
Monica Lewinsky
I love thank you for what you're doing and I love all of that. This was so amazing. Sophia, thank you so much for coming and sharing your wisdom and your light and what a treat.
- [56:24]
Sophia Bush
Thank you. You are so easy to talk to and welcoming and I think that you are choosing to do this and make this space for yourself. You make it for us. By you doing this, you give other people permission to do it.
- [56:42]
Monica Lewinsky
That is very kind.
- [56:44]
Sophia Bush
Thank you.
- [56:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Reclaiming with Modicum Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky Production Services by WTF Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez Wren and Emily Feldbrake and executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.