Suleika Jaouad

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky"

Episode: Suleika Jaouad

Date: March 31, 2026
Host: Monica Lewinsky
Guest: Suleika Jaouad

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Overview

This episode of "Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky" features an intimate, vulnerable, and often laugh-filled conversation with writer, artist, and cancer survivor Suleika Jaouad. Together, Monica and Suleika discuss what it means to "reclaim" life after disruption—whether by public scandal or repeated brushes with mortality—and the ongoing journey toward authenticity, creativity, self-compassion, and small joys. They reflect on navigating societal pressures, the creative process, relationships, and the power of embracing all the messy, contradictory parts of ourselves.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. The Connection: First Meeting & Mutual Admiration

• Monica recounts being deeply moved by Suleika’s 2019 TED talk: “What Almost Dying Taught Me About Living.”
• Suleika shares how Monica reached out after her talk:

  “It's one thing to think a nice thought about someone. It's another to take the time to actually write a message... I’m just continuously inspired by people who translate thoughtfulness into action.” (02:09)

2. Survival as a Creative Act

• Monica highlights a quote from the "American Symphony" documentary:

  “We both see survival as its own kind of creative act.” (05:06)

• Suleika expands:

  “Rebuilding your life after trauma...requires a tremendous amount of creativity. Using my imagination to travel beyond the confines of a hospital room, figuring out how to communicate when language can’t hold the suffering. All of that requires creativity.” (06:01)

• Monica connects this to her personal healing through sound and laments “sadness around not having had kids,” finding resonance in turning life's creative energies into different forms. (07:48)

3. Art, Alchemy, and Healing Through Process

• Suleika discusses her journey painting during isolating hospital stays:

  “Painting became a way of being in deeper conversation with myself... I started a visual journal of these weird apparitions. John would send me lullabies in return, which became a counterpoint to the hospital’s noises. I felt so enveloped by his presence... The creative process alchemizes pain into something beautiful or interesting.” (09:05–11:25)

• Monica relates alchemy to life: “That’s an incredible metaphor for life...the mess is where the intrigue is, and you push further into that.” (14:41)

4. The Value of Creative Freedom and “Smallness”

• Suleika resists making her art commodified or goal-oriented:

  “I wanted to preserve and reclaim that part of my creative process as something I was just doing for myself... I want to be able to write things that are just for me.” (16:30)

• She explores the concept of “reclaiming smallness”:

  “Prioritizing depth over reach, allowing myself the small joys...to think about ways to narrow my attention to something that may not go anywhere but feels nourishing to me.” (16:30)

5. Challenging American Narratives of Productivity

• Monica and Suleika reflect on cultural pressures—especially as first-gen Americans and women:

  “American capitalism nudges us constantly toward velocity and volume... The importance of slowness, rest, and generosity is hard to reclaim here, especially as a woman.” (22:49–24:15)

6. Living With Illness: Guilt, Gratitude, and Redefining Presence

• Both reflect on feelings of being “left behind” and the pressure to make up lost time.
• Suleika shares:

  “My doctor said, ‘You have to live every day as if it's your last.’ It was exhausting to try to squeeze the juice out of every moment... So I had to shift to a gentler mindset of trying to live every day as if it’s my first—seeking out small joys and beauties.” (26:37–30:32)

7. Permission, Play, and Gendered Expectations

• The struggle for women to give themselves permission to do what they love, without needing to “earn it” first.
• Suleika:

  “So often we already know what we love, but we feel like we have to earn the right to do it. But the goalposts keep moving.” (32:02)

8. Career Detours & Unexpected Freedom

• Suleika’s initial ambition to be a war correspondent, then paralegal, before cancer forced a break:

  “Getting sick freed me from those expectations. I couldn't be productive or climb a ladder...so I allowed myself to pursue writing.” (33:36–36:58)

9. Generational Shifts for Women

• Discussing the rapid evolution of expectations for women and the “legacy of goodness.”

  “My grandmother had 13 children, never learned to read or write... you can try to do it all, but it comes at a cost. Sometimes the cost is your own well-being.” (38:12–39:53)

10. Humor, Multidimensionality & Reclaiming All Parts of Ourselves

• Both celebrate their “prankster” sides and lament being seen as only “strong/inspiring” in public.

  “I think another thing I’m trying to reclaim is the permission to be free. And more than that, the permission to be disappointing.” (45:08)

11. Vulnerability & Creative Collaboration in Partnership

• Beautiful story of John Batiste bringing his band to perform for Suleika in the hospital, catalyzing her understanding of creativity as healing:

  “It doesn’t necessarily cure, but it can heal. It can shift the vibration.” (51:38)

• Playing music together on the "Book of Alchemy" tour becomes a metaphor for letting go of perfectionism and embracing improvisation. (54:58–57:56)

12. The Mess as Connection

• Monica and Suleika discuss how sharing vulnerability, even publicly, leads to deeper connection:

  “What would happen if one woman told the truth? The world would split open.” (Muriel Rukai, quoted at 61:07)

• Suleika’s “Isolation Journals” newsletter and community—a space for honest, messy creative expression—has grown to over 200,000 people. (62:31)

13. Reclaiming Smallness and Mini-Retirements

• In closing, Suleika offers her current reclamation:

  “I am planning to take what I call a mini-retirement...two weeks, maybe a month, then working toward longer. The only requirement: it must feel nourishing. I don’t have to earn it. I can start doing it right now.” (63:27–65:30)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I had to shift to a gentler mindset of trying to live every day as if it's my first.” – Suleika (00:00, 26:37)
• “The mess is where the intrigue is. It’s where the interesting stuff...ends up becoming the most beautiful part of the canvas.” – Suleika, quoting her mother (14:49)
• “Permission to be free, and more than that, permission to be disappointing.” – Suleika (45:08)
• “It doesn’t necessarily cure, but it can heal. It can shift the vibration.” – Suleika (53:39)
• “What would happen if one woman told the truth? The world would split open.” – Monica, quoting Muriel Rukai (61:07)
• “I want to reclaim smallness. Prioritizing depth over reach, small joys that may not go anywhere but feel deeply nourishing to me.” – Suleika (16:30, 63:27)
• “The irony is, when you choose to or accidentally let the mess out, that’s when you see the most connection with other people.” – Monica (60:40)
• “I’m trying to shift out of this all or nothing kind of binary thinking...I don’t have to wait, I don’t have to earn it.” – Suleika (65:04)

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Suggested Listening Timestamps

• Living Like Every Day is Your First – (00:00–01:15, reprises at 26:37)
• Creativity & Survival: American Symphony Discussion – (05:06–07:45)
• Making Art in Hospital & Creative Collaboration with Jon Batiste – (09:05–13:31)
• Mother’s Wisdom: Watercolor & “The Mess” – (13:36–14:49)
• Reclaiming Smallness & Slowness – (16:30–24:15, 63:27–65:30)
• Guilt, Gratitude, Gender & Productivity – (24:41–32:02)
• Career Detours & Sickness as a Break from Perfectionism – (33:22–37:43)
• Humor, Multidimensionality, and Permission to Disappoint – (40:58–46:39)
• Jon Batiste’s Hospital Serenade & Creativity as Healing – (50:45–53:39)
• On Letting Go of Perfection in Public – (54:58–59:54)
• Truth-Telling, Community, and Splitting the World Open – (61:07–62:14)

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Tone & Atmosphere

The dialogue is deeply personal, compassionate, and at times, playfully irreverent. Both Monica and Suleika intertwine humor and emotion, balancing frank discussions of mortality, societal expectations, and creative freedom with laughter, cursing, and inside stories. The tone is candid, hopeful, and refreshingly non-performative, offering listeners both comfort and inspiration.

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Summary Takeaways

• Reclaiming doesn't always mean achieving or triumphing; sometimes it means giving yourself permission for small joys, imperfection, and being seen in all your human dimensions.
• Creativity is a powerful tool for survival, healing, and connection—including with ourselves.
• Surfacing vulnerability and “the mess” can be the path to genuine intimacy and community.
• In a culture pushing for more-bigger-faster, choosing depth, rest, and smallness is a quietly radical act.

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For those who haven’t listened: This episode offers a rich tapestry of stories and insights on living with uncertainty, practicing self-compassion, and reclaiming joy—often through the very messiness we’re taught to avoid. It’s heartfelt, humorous, and gently subversive in its wisdom.

Transcript

[Suleika Jaouad]

And I kept saying to my doctor, like, I don't know how to deal with this level of uncertainty. I don't know how to keep living my life when I don't know what's going to happen. And he said to me the thing people often say, which is that you have to live every day as if it's your last. And it was exhausting to try to make every family dinner meaningful, to try to. To squeeze the juice out of every single moment. It was just unsustainable. And so I had to shift to a gentler mindset of trying to live every day as if it's my first.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Suleika. Suleika. Suleika. Welcome to Reclaiming.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Thank you for having me on.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my gosh. I. This is just. I've been feeling the magic of this conversation all morning, and I just feel really lucky.

[Suleika Jaouad]

I feel the same way. I adore you. I've adored you long before I've known you, and I'm just so honored to get to sit with you and share this time.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, I was thinking about that. I think the first time we met, was it Ted, when you did your ted talk in 2019? I mean, I don't know that we had a proper connect. I feel like we might have because I was so blown away by your talk. I was so blown away by it and the title. I wrote it down. What Almost Dying Taught Me About Living.

[Suleika Jaouad]

I remember exactly. We didn't actually meet face to face, but you sent me a message, and I was so surprised and so moved. And, you know, it's one thing to think a nice thought about someone. It's another to take the time to actually write a message. And I think I'm just continuously inspired by people who translate thoughtfulness into action and who.

[Monica Lewinsky]

What an interesting way to take the

[Suleika Jaouad]

time to reach out. It's without any expectation of anything, but just to say, I read your book, I listened to your talk. This moved me. And it's something that I think, especially in a world as busy as this one, it's hard enough to do with the people you know, and it takes a special person to reach out in the way that you did to me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my God.

[Suleika Jaouad]

When you don't Know someone, and it meant so much to me, and I suspect you do that a lot. Is that true?

[Monica Lewinsky]

No. It's funny you're saying this, and I'm thinking about how there be a ton of people who listen. It's like, oh, she hasn't gotten back to me on text in months. So sometimes I'm thoughtful, but I was. I mean, not only was my experience so heart blown open, tears, you know, but all of my friends that I was sitting with, we were just all so moved. Not just. It wasn't just your story of sort of love life and leukemia. It was your presence. Oh, just your presence. There's just a magic about you. Thank you. A real magic about you. And so it's just really, really, really special.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Really special. I was absolutely terrified.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my gosh.

[Suleika Jaouad]

I don't think I've ever been more nervous in my entire life.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Same, same. And, you know, and I had to testify to Congress, so that says a lot. Yeah. I remember waiting in the wings and looking out at that red circle, and I just thought, okay, I'm either gonna pass out, throw up, or I guess do this.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Something about the red circle just amps up the anxiety and the pressure.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, 100%. But it was. But your talk was one of the ones that everybody was buzzing about, and I think it was, again, not just the words, but you. Your frequency, your heart, your energy, all of it.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Thank you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And I had not seen American Symphony, the documentary that you are a subject of, and your husband, who has how many Grammys?

[Suleika Jaouad]

Who knows? I've lost track. I won't say the number because inevitably I'll get it wrong and he'll correct me after this.

[Monica Lewinsky]

All right, well, blame it on me that I didn't do my research, but Jean Baptiste, which was so beautiful. But I wrote down. There's this quote from your narration that just like. And so you said. Long before our relationship, John and I shared a creative language. We both see survival as its own kind of creative act. And I just. That hit me in such a deep way, because I think survival, I think it gets talked kind of like getting emotional. I think it gets talked about in these ways that don't have a beauty to it. And that was sort of what I felt in what you were saying. I mean, I don't know. What did you mean in that?

[Suleika Jaouad]

I mean, I believe we're all deeply creative as children. We play make believe. We use our imagination to teleport ourselves into all kinds of scenarios. We. We make finger paintings without worrying about if we're a good artist or a bad artist. And at some point, many of us lose that connection to our creativity. And the thing is, everything that we do requires creativity. Fighting requires creativity. Business requires creativity. Cooking requires creativity. But to me, where the creative process really comes into sharp relief is when you're thrown into a situation, whether it's an illness or something else, where you feel like you're having to reimagine who you are, where you're having to rebuild your life in the aftermath of a traumatic incident. And for me in particular, dealing with leukemia, as I have for so much of my adult life, has required a tremendous amount of creativity. Using my imagination to travel beyond the confines of a hospital room, having to figure out how to communicate with loved ones when the fabric of language can't seem to hold the suffering. All of that requires creativity.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Suleika Jaouad]

How does it resonate for you?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, it's interesting what's sort of coming up for me, and I'm not sure I'm putting all the pieces together. I can articulate it in the right way. But the main kind of healing work I've done for the past almost 20 years has been now people understand when I say it's resonance and vibration work through sound. For a long time, it was like, well, it sounds like a sound bath. And people could get that. I'm like, it's very different. It's like re patterning your field and all sorts of things. And I do often do these long protocols, and we did one around creativity. And so I think there was a big unlocking for me. I have a lot of sadness around not having had kids. And so this, I think, like, the connecting of, okay, this same creative force that you use to, you know, grow a child is the same creative force that you use to birth an article or a show or something. And so I think in that way, I hadn't thought about that as connected to survival until I heard you say that in the documentary.

[Suleika Jaouad]

And I will say the actual creative process of writing or painting or music has been so central, not just to surviving those moments, but figuring out how to heal and to live. I'll give you an example that's captured a little bit in American Symphony. But when I went through a second bone marrow transplant three years ago, I was in the hospital for about a month. And it was during. So the visitor policy was really strict. I was only allowed to have one visitor a day for a very limited number of hours. And I think, you know, far harder than the side effects of chemotherapy. And the physical pain was that sense of isolation and the creative process for me became a way of not just being in deeper conversation with myself at a time when I had no idea who I was anymore, but also of being in deeper conversation with the people around me. So I started painting. During that period, for the first time, I was having these really intense night terrors and medication induced hallucinations that made me very afraid of my own subconscious. And I decided to create a visual journal of these weird apparitions. And during that period of time, John and I couldn't see each other for about two weeks because he'd been exposed to Covid and the germ risk was too high as someone who had no immune system. And so every day I would text him one of my paintings, and in return, he started composing these little lullabies that he would send to me every day. And I would play them on loop in my hospital room as a kind of counterpoint to the hospital's many noises, the beeping, IV poles, the alarms that go off whenever your condition drastically changes. And I felt so enveloped by his presence, by his love, but also by the healing melody of the lullaby, which is, you know, perhaps the most soothing musical form.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Kind of primal.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Primal, absolutely. And, you know, maybe it seems like a silly thing, but it changed my entire experience of that stay. I was no longer afraid of my dreams and my nightmares. They became a subject, something interesting and even beautiful when I translated them into watercolor. And that, to me, is the power of the creative process. You can alchemize something that feels painful or difficult into something where you begin to also find moments of beauty or interest or unexpected revelations, even. Mm.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, it's. Well, you have your book, the Book of Alchemy. And so is that how you define alchemy, or is there a way you define it?

[Suleika Jaouad]

I've always been fascinated by alchemy, and I think, you know, traditionally we think of it as this magical process of transforming something considered worthless, like lead, into something precious, like gold. And that, to me, has such a rhyme with how I experience the creative process. Whether you're someone who doesn't consider yourself creative, or you're a musician by profession or a visual artist. The ability to make something where there was nothing has always felt miraculous to me. The ability, even in the privacy of a journal, to take a swirl or message of feelings that you're having and to distill them on the page has always felt like a sacred kind of transformation. The second I write something down, especially something that feels heavy, it lightens. I can see it differently. I can examine it. I externalize it from my body onto the page.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Did you have sort of artistic training?

[Suleika Jaouad]

I had no artistic training. My mom is a visual artist, and growing up, she taught art classes in the attic of our house, which was her studio. And so I would go there after school and mess around with whatever tools were available to me. But beyond that, I had no. No visual art training. But one thing I always really appreciated about my mom and that she reminded me of when I was in the hospital is, you know, especially with watercolor, you can't control the movements. You're in collaboration with the pigment and the water, and you have to let it flow and bloom and bleed, and you don't have control much like in life. And sometimes I'd paint something, I'd say, this is a mess. I'm gonna throw it out. And my mom would always say to me, no, the message is actually where the energy is. Keep moving into that. There's no such thing as a mess. That's usually where something interesting is happening. And so she was a great art teacher. Not just, to me, teacher.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I mean, that's an incredible metaphor for life.

[Suleika Jaouad]

It is, right? It is.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I mean, that is a really. What a beautiful thing.

[Suleika Jaouad]

The mess is where the intrigue is. It's where the interesting stuff. And you push further into that, and it ends up becoming the most beautiful part of the canvas often.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. Well, and also, I think that relationship, too, between our expectations of ourselves, our expectations of excellence. And I know you have a journal that goes with your book and your. You know, I did that journaling class with you and John at the weekend thing, whatever. And it's just. It's really interesting to me, the. What your mom was saying, because I think so many of us get held up by the voice in her head. Right. I mean, it took me a long time to get to the place where it was okay. I'm, like, drawing for 30 seconds. I have this little pad, and I'm gonna throw it away. And I started with that and moved into. You know, I actually was traveling to. I was in New York, and I don't remember what happened. And I was like, oh, I had that feeling of, I need to draw. And I went to this little art store, and it was. Oh, the thick, heavy paper and these stupid, expensive markers, but that dance on the page, you know, and the colors and the whole thing. And so. And I've. You know, I'm probably now on my fourth or fifth big book. That's like a. It's Like a visual diary.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Totally.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, but I struggle, you know, I try to keep in that thing what the 30 second drawing is, is that it's just about getting it out. It's not about the perfection. So.

[Suleika Jaouad]

And I think that's why I've been so drawn to journaling my entire life, because it is this low stakes private container that's not for public consumption, that's not about being a good writer or a good drawer. It's just about pure expression. And it doesn't have to be grammatical writing. You don't have to be a trained artist. It's just about enjoying the process. And I think it's so hard to do that, especially as we get older and especially in a culture that is obsessed with productivity and a specific definition of success. And so for me to start painting at 33, I wanted in that time in my life to have something that wasn't about being good and to have the permission to be a bad artist and to make something without a goal in mind, but to do it with rigor. When I started painting more intensely, I had this opportunity two summers ago to have an exhibit. It was actually a joint exhibit with my mom and it was called the Alchemy of Blood. And the head of the museum asked me if I wanted to sell my paintings. And I thought about it for a while and I realized I did not want to sell my paintings because I didn't want to be painting through the lens of capitalism, of is this a sellable good? Is this something that I can attach a price tag to and what should the price tag be? I really wanted to preserve and reclaim that part of my creative process as something I was just doing, doing for myself without any sort of external or self imposed expectation attached to it. And I realize, you know, that's not always possible. I love writing, of course, but it's also my job. It's so hard. The lesson I took from that is that I want to be able to write things that are just for me. I want to allow myself the joy, as I did as a teenager, of filling up an entire notebook or a legal pad with a story without thinking to myself, is this something publishable? Is this something I should post? And when I think about the title of your podcast, and it's so in sync with, I think, the theme of what I'm exploring in my life right now, which is a reclamation of smallness. Interesting. Of prioritizing depth over reach, prioritizing smallness over small, of really allowing myself to think about the small joys to think about ways that I want to narrow my attention to something that may be small and may not go anywhere in terms of what other people see, but that feels deeply nourishing to me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean it. It's interesting because in today's world, especially in this country, it also feels like a radical act.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Totally.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Maybe I'm weird, but whenever I put on a robe, it feels like a hug. And so for Mother's Day this year, I'll be giving my mom and my stepmom Cozy Earth robes. So it's like they're getting hugs from me every day. The robe has these thoughtful details, like spacious pockets and adjustable ties. The cozy silhouettes make every moment feel intentional. And whether it's plush quilted waffle or stretch knit, each piece is made with care. And if you're feeling extra generous, you can also add in the Cozy Earth slippers to the gift. There's a special kind of comfort in slipping into something soft and finally exhaling. The plush shearling footbeds will wrap her feet in warmth and turn everyday moments into little acts of care. Plus, these items are backed by a 10 year warranty. Let this Mother's Day be a reminder that she deserves care too. Discover how Cozy Earth turns everyday routines into moments of softness and ease. Head to cozyearth.com and use my code reclaiming for an exclusive 20% off. And if you see a post purchase survey, please be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here on Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky. Because home starts with mom, do you think? Because your parents were not born here, right? So your mom was born in Switzerland. And where was your dad born?

[Suleika Jaouad]

Tunisia.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay. And so do you think. Because my parents, my mom was born in the States but raised in Tokyo and my dad was born in El Salvador to German parents. And so I think there's, there's something about other cultures that sort of weave their way into your childhood. Do you feel like some of that is maybe what's coming out now? In a way. Because we're so conditioned here.

[Suleika Jaouad]

We are. I mean, American capitalism nudges us constantly towards velocity and volume. And as someone who is a first generation American, the notion of the American dream was so deeply ingrained in me. Honor the sacrifices that your parents made for you. Work as hard as you can to have as big of a life as you can. And I do think in a way it's a return, especially when I think of Tunisia. I've not been there and oh, you have to come.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Please come. Okay. My, you know, I think of my dad and his family and the emphasis on hospitality, on generosity, the importance of slowness, which is something that I don't think culturally in America we reward at all. If anything, we penalize. And it is so hard, I think, for us in the United States to reclaim rest. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Especially as a woman.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Especially as a woman.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I think rest as a woman.

[Suleika Jaouad]

And to choose slowness over speed, to choose meaning over momentum. And I'm 37 now.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You're a baby.

[Suleika Jaouad]

I feel like I'm 37 going on 87 sometimes. But it's a question I've been asking for myself of myself this year.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I get that.

[Suleika Jaouad]

What do I want and what, what's actually important to me and what am I striving for because I actually want the thing I'm striving for or because I'm caught up in a momentum that's

[Monica Lewinsky]

pushing me forward because someone else's narrative. Right.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Because I think it's what makes me good and what makes me valued and valuable.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Just yesterday was short lived, but I had a total existential crisis of like, what really is the point? Like, what really are we doing here? What is the end game? What am I working so hard towards? What, you know, what is this? I just was like, what, what are we doing here? You know?

[Suleika Jaouad]

Absolutely.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It just is a. I also, and I don't know if you've experienced this obviously from a very different vantage point, but I think for me, because I lost so much time, like I lost this decade of my life and this period of time when I was supposed to be doing a whole bunch of other things that there is this feeling. I mean, I'm grateful that I have this momentum now because for a very long time it was just watching everybody else in my life move forward and so that, you know, it's like, oh, they're getting another degree, they're getting another husband, they're getting another child, they're, you know, and that. That feeling. So I think sometimes I don't know if you ever feel this, but I have this weird relationship with gratitude and guilt where it's like, if I feel like, oh, if I'm. I don't continue to keep doing and I don't continue to keep feeling grateful that I. Something will be taken away. I don't.

[Suleika Jaouad]

I relate so deeply to that. I got my first diagnosis of leukemia at 22, and I spent much of the next four years in the hospital watching my friends and peers accelerate into adulthood and, you know, getting jobs and getting married and all the other big and small milestones of. Of early adulthood. And I felt so profoundly stuck. And I think with each diagnosis, I felt an added sense of urgency around time and making the most of time, while also, to your earlier point, having these moments of. Of what is the point of all of this? And there's nothing quite like staring your mortality in the eye to strip away all the BS to make. To have a sense of clarity about what really matters to you, who really matters to you, how you want to fill your days. And what I'm clocking into in myself is that feeling of making up time, of doing the most that I can with the time that I have is often at odds with what really matters to me. And for me, the guilt and the gratitude feels gendered in the sense that I want so badly to be good, and that striving to be good for me is what exhausts me. It's what leaves me feeling empty and wrecked with fatigue at the end of the day. When I learned two summers ago that the leukemia was back a third time and that this time it was incurable, I'll be living with this illness for the rest of my life, however long or short that is. I spent about a month in bed where I just couldn't drag myself out of a feeling of being doomed. I couldn't daydream about the future because I didn't know if I was going to get to exist in that future. And so making a plan three months out felt totally destabilizing. And I kept saying to my doctor, like, I don't know how to deal with this level of uncertainty. I don't know how to keep living my life when I don't know what's going to happen. And he said to me, the thing people often say, which is that you have to live every day as if it's your last. And I took that advice to heart because I'm a good student. I want a gold star. I want an A. And it was exhausting to try to make every family dinner meaningful, to try to squeeze the juice out of every single moment. It was just unsustainable. And so I had to shift to a gentler mindset of trying to live every day as if it's my first to wake up with a sense of wonderful and playfulness that a little kid so naturally does and to shift out of trying to live for the big moments and instead just seeking out the small joys and the small beauties. And, you know, I haven't achieved it perfectly. It's something I try to arc toward.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But what a pretty way to say that. Arc toward. I like that.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Thank you. But it's an ongoing internal struggle.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I don't know. Are you woo woo at all?

[Suleika Jaouad]

Absolutely.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay. Because I'm very woo woo and so woo away. Yes. But I had a. It was like a session with someone who channels a person. And in the channeling session, she had done this. I never know what to say. She. They. He. Because it's a woman who channels a man. So they, I guess had me do this exercise about. It was like, okay, I achieved. What's this next thing I want to. I achieve that. Okay, now what? Now I achieve that. And, you know, down and down and down until it's like, okay, it's now. I've now achieved all the things. What am I doing? And my thing was I'm painting. And so. So. And I don't really know how to paint, but I come from my dad's side of the family, is very artistic. And so my own love was a big painter. And it was just interesting because in the session they were talking about, like, why I don't give myself permission to do the thing that I think I have to earn.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Totally.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, and so that feels very much like kind of some of what you're talking about in a way of just finding like, the seeds that are already blooming, not the ones that have to be planted.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Absolutely. I mean, I think back to college and I loved reading and I would never have been an English major. And I remember saying this to my mom. I said, it sounds like too much fun. I need to pick something a little harder and more rigorous. And I think so often we already know what we love. But to your point, we feel like we have to earn the right to do the things we're already curious about, the things we already love. But the thing is, the goalposts keep moving. So that period of stuckness in my 20s or in your 20s, in very different contexts where you feel like you're watching everyone accelerate past you. And for me at least, I kept thinking, like, I just have to arrive. And once I arrive, once I know who I am, once I know what I'm doing, then I can allow myself X, Y, And Z. But I'm starting to believe that life is a series of coming of age arcs. There's no moment of arrival where you think, okay, I've worked enough, I've done enough of the hard things, I've earned enough of a right to be free.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I wanna go back though, to when you were 22 and you were living in Paris, right at the time you'd graduated Princeton, you had done pre college at Juilliard. Right, for double base. Do I have this correct? Yes.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay. And is it accurate that you wanted to be a war correspondent?

[Suleika Jaouad]

I wanted to be a war correspondent.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So. So what was that? What took you there? What interested you about that?

[Suleika Jaouad]

I knew I loved to write. I actually wrote mostly fiction, but it didn't occur to me, or it didn't feel like an option to try to become a fiction writer. I felt like I again needed to find something practical, something that could pay the bills. Never occurred to me to apply to an MFA program. The idea of student loans, of then emerging with those student loans and trying to write an op, like none of that felt like an option. So I felt like journalism was a middle ground. It was like a real job that would allow me to write, but that didn't feel so tenuous and uncertain. And because I spent much of my life in Tunisia and in Switzerland, where my mom's from, and spoke those two languages fluently, I was interested in reporting on what was happening in North Africa, because the Arab Spring or the Jasmine revolution had just begun in Tunisia. But the truth is, I was also a hot mess. At 21 or 22. I was also thinking about law school again, reading, writing. I guess being a lawyer involves both of those things. So I was working as a paralegal and really just trying to figure out how to reconcile again the things I knew I already loved with a definition of being good and being successful that at the time was rooted in safety and what made sense. The journalist David Brooks has spoken about the distinction between resume virtues, the things that make us attractive in the modern marketplace, and eulogy virtues, the traits that were often remembered by Once we're gone, were we kind? Were we brave, were we humble? And I was very much focused on my resume virtues. But the reality is, I think even before I got sick, I already felt behind. And that's the sickness, I think, of American capitalism and exceptionalism. I felt so far behind my classmates in college because I didn't come from the same world of private schools and no one in my family had gone to college in the US And I felt like a constant outsider. And so the truth is that in a way, as strange as it sounds, getting sick freed me from those expectations. I couldn't be a productive person.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Interesting.

[Suleika Jaouad]

I couldn't, you know, climb a ladder and have a certain kind of career. And the irony is that when I got sick, because I couldn't do those things because I was shuttling between the hospital and my childhood bedroom, I allowed myself to pursue the thing I'd always wanted to pursue, which is writing. And I don't know that I would have allowed myself that without this massive interruption. I like to think that eventually I would have found my way to a career that both paid the bills and creatively nourished me. But. But I don't know that I would have given myself permission to actually pursue it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

We're also living through these times where women, there are those expectations of women, and that's new. Like our grandma. Well, my grandmother's generation. I mean, she went to college, but there was nothing expected of her except to be a mom and a housewife and a wife and, you know, all those things. So, I mean, I just, I don't think I've thought about it this way before. But the fact that this is new for us, this is new for women,

[Suleika Jaouad]

we have an inherited legacy of expectation, of goodness that has been exploded.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Suleika Jaouad]

You know, My grandmother had 13 children, never learned to read or write. Oh, my gosh. And her role was very clear. Yeah, it was to take care of the children and to take care of the home. The option of having a career and doing that just wasn't an option. And I remember right around the time I graduated, Ann Marie Slaughter wrote that essay questioning if women can have it all. And I, like you, grew up in a generation where I was told, you can have it all. You can have the career, you can have the family, you can have. You just have to work hard enough. But Ann Marie's thesis was that you can't. That you can try to do it all. It's exhausting and it comes at a cost. And sometimes the cost is your own well being. And so I think about it a lot as I think about the future and feel a real sense of humility about my own limitations too, because I have to. I'm going straight from this interview to Kimo and I, you know, energy is a finite resource.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And thank you for coming today.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Oh, what a great way to ride into chemo. And I want to be thoughtful and deliberate about where I'm investing that energy. And as much as I want to do all of the things the math doesn't always. Math?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

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[Monica Lewinsky]

Is there a silly version of you?

[Suleika Jaouad]

Oh, my gosh, absolutely.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And what does that look like? I

[Suleika Jaouad]

have a real prankster side to my personal life. Me too. You do?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. April Fool's day is like my heaven.

[Suleika Jaouad]

April Fool's Day. I feel like you and my mom need to meet. April Fool's day is my mom's favorite holiday of the year. She takes it so seriously. Often takes it too far.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Some people in my life might say the same. I'm gonna say I wrote a piece on it last year. I'm gonna send it to you.

[Suleika Jaouad]

I can't wait. Yeah. My mom. That year I was in Paris. My brother was a junior in college, and she emailed the two of us to say that our father had lost his job. Oh, my God. My brother needed to disenroll from college immediately and return home and get a job to help support the family. And then she forgot all about it and went to the movies.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, my gosh.

[Suleika Jaouad]

He panicked. And she thought it was hilarious. So I come from a family that has a really twisted sense of humor. Same. And John also has a real prankster personality. Okay. So we are constantly pranking each other.

[Monica Lewinsky]

He has a rascally energy to him, like a little bit of a rascal, you know?

[Suleika Jaouad]

I don't. No, absolutely.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, okay.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Absolutely. He would say I'm the greater rascal.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Suleika Jaouad]

And, you know, that's the funny thing about what happens, I think, when you share a traumatic story publicly is there's a way in which it. Yeah. It can kind of flatten you into a one dimensional person who's considered strong or inspiring or graceful, because if. And that doesn't allow, of course, you know, the other aspects of yourself to come through. And so I think one thing that doesn't come through for me as. As my. My inner hellraiser. My. My. My inner rascal. Mm.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, it's interesting. It does feel. I Think it can feel so much when you are putting your personal life story out there or trying to reclaim your narrative or. You know, for me, I think there was just always a feeling in stepping back out of, like, I just want to be seen for my true self, you know, but there were aspects, like, in fact, it was someone who had helped me, who worked at Twitter at the time, who helped me understand Twitter, who had said to me, you know, you're funny. You should really. I was like, I know I'm funny, but, you know. And she said, you should really let people see this funny side of you. And I was like, well, you know, I don't know. And. And this, that, and the other. But so there is that. There is that sense of, I think, being known for the multitudes that we, you know, contain. To paraphrase, witness.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Totally, totally. And feeling a real sense of responsibility to. When you have a public platform to, you know. And it comes back to that desire to be good. Yeah, I love to cuss.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, me too. Me too.

[Suleika Jaouad]

And a friend of mine said, you never cuss in writing. And I'm like, yeah. Cause I'm scared that I'm gonna upset someone or offend someone or. The few times I have, you know, someone has written to me to say how disappointed they are and that their child or teenage daughter reads.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Fuck that.

[Suleika Jaouad]

My substance. Exactly. Exactly. And so I. You know, I think another thing I'm trying to reclaim is the permission to be free. And more than that, the permission to be disappointing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Yeah. And to not care.

[Monica Lewinsky]

This is hard.

[Suleika Jaouad]

It's really hard.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I swear, so much. And actually, when John Oliver was on the show, he said cunt, and he was like, oh, maybe I can't. I'm like, oh, no. We say cunt on this show. I love the word cunt. So it's a great. And sometimes, like, sometimes there's just not a word that carries an energy that can express. That can express that.

[Suleika Jaouad]

I know. By the way, John is someone who does not.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, really? Okay.

[Suleika Jaouad]

But when he gets really upset, this is my favorite thing to witness. He'll bleep himself.

[Monica Lewinsky]

What do you mean?

[Suleika Jaouad]

He'll go like, bolt. And I think it's so endearing and funny. Or better yet, he'll say things like, ah, sucks. And I'm like, it's just not. Like, I'd be like, just say it. I know you want to say it. Just let it go. And he's like, no, I can't. I can't, I can't, I can't.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You And John met, like, I just want to talk a little about the love story because it is so magical.

[Suleika Jaouad]

So, yeah, John and I met. I was about 12, 13, he was 14 at band camp. And we could not have been more different. He was incredibly shy, incredibly introverted. I was in my Hellraiser years with my, you know, midriff bearing crop top and Birkenstocks. He always brings up the Birkenstocks because he was like, I was from Louisiana and I had never seen Birkenstocks before. But we, you know, I think there was a flash of recognition between us, even though we weren't close at this camp where I thought, this is a fellow misfit. We're not necessarily misfits in the same way. But he. I just found him extraordinary. And fast forward three years, we reconnected at Juilliard, and I had this very strange moment before I even realized he was also at Juilliard, of being on the one train with my friend Michelle and noticing a young man who was drawing a lot of attention because he had his headphones on and he was singing to himself and playing air piano, and people were staring at him, and we were staring at him, and I suddenly turned to Michelle and I said, oh, I know that guy. That's Jon Batiste from Bandcamp. And then out of nowhere, I blurted out, that's the man I'm going to marry. Who? No idea why I said it, didn't give it another thought. And then, you know, realized he was also at Juilliard. So he's someone we've orbited in and out of each other's lives for so long. And it wasn't until, you know, a decade later that we actually started dating. But it's such a.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Who made the first move?

[Suleika Jaouad]

Oh, this is a point of heated debate. I would say him in a sense, but he was so awkward. Once something more than friendship became on the table that it was almost like we were on a blind date and hadn't known each other for 13 years at that point. And I remember saying to him, because I kept waiting for him to make a move, and he wasn't making a move. I said, do I make you nervous? And he just couldn't. Aw, tell me how he felt. He couldn't do it. And I said, call me when you're feeling less nervous. And he called me later that night and he was feeling less nervous. And from that point forward, basically, we've been together. But this is really just to give an ode to awkward men. Yeah, there's something especially you know, I was 26 when we started dating. I'm like, no more slick men. No more smooth operators. Like, give me the awkward man who doesn't have practice lines and moves, who is showing up in all of his nervousness and glorious awkwardness and good intention. And it's such a gift to have known each other through all these different phases because we get to remind each other of who we were and what the through line is.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Will you. If you're not sick of telling this story.

[Suleika Jaouad]

No.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, you might be. You and John told this beautiful story about him. Serenading.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Yes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Are you tired of telling the story?

[Suleika Jaouad]

No, I'm happily telling.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I just. Like, there's something. There's something about you. There's something about the two of you together. You're just such magic energy. And so there was. I just felt so much when I heard you guys tell the story.

[Suleika Jaouad]

So the book of Alchemy is dedicated to John because, in a sense, I think he was my first teacher in how we can enact our own alchemy. And the summer that I first got diagnosed, I spent about two months in the hospital uptown. I hadn't told almost anyone about what was happening. I felt so destabilized. I felt also a sense of shame. My hair was falling out in clumps. I was unrecognizable. And I was also in this mode of comparing what was happening to my life, to the lives of my classmates and friends. And when John learned I was sick through my friend Michelle, the girl I was on the subway with, to whom

[Monica Lewinsky]

you said, I'm gonna marry him.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Exactly, he immediately took his whole band. They were at rehearsal and showed up unannounced at the hospital. And right there in my hospital room, they began to play. And as the sound of John's melodica and Joe's tambourine and a banda's tuba and Eddie Sack started to float out into the cancer unit, all these patients and doctors and nurses kind of came out into the hallway. And suddenly everyone began to clap their hands and sing and dance. And it was such a extraordinary moment because I remember thinking to myself, this has probably been my hardest day yet. And it somehow has gone from my hardest day to one of my most joyous days I've ever had. And that, to me, is the power of. Of creativity. It doesn't necessarily cure, but it can heal. It can shift the vibration. It can change the entire energy. And it's available to all of us, all of the time. And, you know, prior to that day, I felt like My life was over before it had really begun. I'd had these dreams of becoming a war correspondent, but there was no way I was going to be able to do that when I couldn't even get out of my hospital bed. And it wasn't in that exact moment. But I think it planted this seed that started to bloom over the coming weeks and months where I realized that while I couldn't, you know, get on a plane and travel to some far flung locale and be a war correspondent in the way that I thought there was a lot to report on right there in my hospital room and that I could start writing from the front lines of my hospital bed and what was happening to me and around me. And so. So it was such an important moment, and we weren't even romantically involved then. But he's someone who, his entire life and his entire career has played music, not just in conventional venues, but on the streets and in subways and hospital rooms, because he really believes in the power of music and creativity, not just to bring joy, but to heal.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I keep being sort of looped back to when you were talking about that you're painting your nightmares and he's sending you the lullabies, and I'm just like, are you. Have you done something public with that?

[Suleika Jaouad]

We haven't. We went on tour together for the Book of Alchemy. And he, you know, so much of the Book of Alchemy is about cultivating a creative practice, right? With prompts and with prompt, through journaling and with prompts, but without the end goal being perfection or excellence. It's about being in the process. And he said to me, you should walk the walk and play the bass on stage for tour with me. And I was like, absolutely not. I haven't played the bass since college. It's like being a really excellent teenage gymnast. And then after 20 years of not going to the gym, attempting like a double fly, double, you know, back flip on the high bar. Yeah, it just doesn't work. And he was like, well, that's the whole point. And I refused, and I refused and I refused. And about a week before tour, I finally said yes. But at that point, there wasn't time to practice. There wasn't time for lessons. And I realized that actually that was the point, was to return to this thing that I love, to do it in collaboration with this person I love without using perfection or excellence as a shield and to be out of tune or not, and to have fun anyway. And those first couple of shows, Monica, I was so scared to play imperfectly, sometimes even badly on stage in front of thousands of people, in front of my husband, who is a very good musician, sort of like a Grammy winning musician, is like a kind of exposure therapy that I'm not interested in. And by the end of that tour, I was improvising, I was having fun. I was still often out of tune and I felt so free. So we haven't done something with music and painting, but we are always collaborating with each other, even just privately. And John is someone as a jazz musician whose first language is improvisation. And I am someone as a classical musician who's all about technique and preparation and practice. And I think we meet each other in the middle. He pushes me to. To be freer, to play, to improvise in a way that often feels dangerous to me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

For some wackadoodle reason. On my 45th birthday, Alan Cummings, a dear friend of mine.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Oh, I love Alan Cummings.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, he is just amazing. And so after dinner with a group of people, we went to Club Cumming and I was getting over a cold and I saw. Somehow found myself up on stage singing Somewhere over the Rainbow. So there are those moments, you know,

[Suleika Jaouad]

like, how did you feel? It felt good. It felt good.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I think it was. I think the thing I didn't like about it was the panic around. Ooh, I'm sure someone videoed it, which they did. And you know, that feeling of. I think I've gotten a lot better at. As there are more pieces of me that I've chosen to put out into the world, I feel less impacted by reactions to one thing or another. Right. If that makes sense. So I think that it's. I'm able to be a little more emotionally elastic that way. Which is great.

[Suleika Jaouad]

It makes so much sense.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. So.

[Suleika Jaouad]

But that navigating and having control over what becomes public.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Is a core part of feeling safe.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, it's.

[Suleika Jaouad]

It is. And also that sometimes letting that control go also.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. Is.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Feels like it's kind of freedom and safety.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, in the journaling, what's it called, like, activity that I chose that you and John led and you had us drawing, closing our eyes and doing the self portrait. I felt like I even felt insecure sitting in a circle of people with everybody's eyes closed in my own journal, that nobody was gonna see what it was.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Totally.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And so that's sort of. That was just a really interesting metaphor of just that feeling of what am I so afraid of?

[Suleika Jaouad]

You know, I think so many of us have that, especially in this age of Hyper curated online Personas. It's like this fear of what would happen if people really knew me. If people didn't just see the perfect, tightly curated parts of who I want to serve up to the world. But what if they saw the mess? What if they saw the half formed sketch?

[Monica Lewinsky]

And it's usually. I mean, the irony is, I'm sure you've had this experience. I know I have. Where it's when you either choose to or it accidentally gets out there. It's when you see the most connection with other people.

[Suleika Jaouad]

Absolutely.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And so it just. It's so weird to me that we. We end up with that kind of a relationship with ourselves. Right.

[Suleika Jaouad]

And so one of my favorite lines, I don't have tattoos.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Suleika Jaouad]

But if I did, maybe I would tattoo this on my body somewhere. Is the writer, the poet Muriel Rukai says, yeah, but I'm gonna paraphrase it. But what would happen if one woman told the truth? The world would split open. And I think that as you know, and as I've learned, there's such power when you tell the truth, when you dare to share your unvarnished vulnerability. And it creates a reverberation and. A deep sense of connection that sometimes allows people within that reverberation to tell their own truth.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You've done that so much in your life. I mean, from the Life Interrupted column that you started right after your first diagnosis and then during COVID Right. Creating this online, it's like one of the largest. Right. 200,000 people.

[Suleika Jaouad]

It's a newsletter and creative community called the Isolation Journals.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Through so much of what you've done and written, you build those.

[Suleika Jaouad]

You know, it's so interesting because of course, it's. The thing I'm constantly grappling with is how, you know, to return to my mom, to not just be okay with the mess, but to resist trying to cover it up and to actually push into it and to realize that that's where the power and the energy is.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So the last question I ask everybody is if there's anything that you are currently working on reclaiming, and you've basically talked about it for our time together, but if there's anything that feels really specific.

[Suleika Jaouad]

So, you know, I've been talking about reclaiming smallness, and let me get a little more granular. Part of that for me is saying no in favor of what nourishes me. And I am planning to take what I call a mini retirement. Ooh. In the form of a two week period.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, God.

[Suleika Jaouad]

It's really mini hold on. Okay. I feel like we wait until a certain age to retire and I'm like, I don't want to wait till I'm 65. I probably won't live to be 65. So instead I'm going to have my retirement segmented into like little periods throughout the year, sprinkled throughout the year. Two weeks, maybe I'll graduate to one month. I was just thinking, okay, and what I'm working towards is a six month retirement and then a full year retirement where I'm not going to publish anything, I'm not going to do any of the kind of public facing work things I do. And the only requirement is that it has to feel nourishing. So I'm baby stepping my way there. As much as I'd like to tell you that I'm taking a year long retirement, that's just not possible right now yet. But I'm trying to shift out of this all or nothing kind of binary thinking that I'm so prone to and to say, well, maybe that's not possible right now, but I can start exercising that, that muscle in a way that is. I don't have to wait, I don't have to earn it in some grand way that doesn't feel realistic, but I can start doing it right now.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I love that. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much. If I did not have another guest coming, I would go with you to sit with chemo. So maybe next time I'm here next

[Suleika Jaouad]

time and we'll bring our sketchbooks.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Exactly.

[Suleika Jaouad]

I'd love it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And yeah, so, so vivacious. And I'm just holding that vivacious. Vivacity. Is that vivacity a word? I don't know, whatever the vivaciousness that is, you.