B (3:19)

Okay.

A (3:20)

Because my sister and brother in law lived there at the time. And I was in the car with my sister and I was just thinking to myself about this relationship that had ended and I was chasing this guy, chasing him.

B (3:37)

I have no idea what that means.

A (3:40)

Chasing him, chasing him. Not in any way, shape or form. Still on my feet, very much so. On my knees, like crawling after him, you know. And I was just reflecting on that in the car and thinking about the relationship before that. And I had done the same. It had ended the same way. And the relationship before that had kind of gone the same way. And I was thinking about the generational trauma that had induced that sort of behavior and thing in me that I didn't like. And I remember thinking to myself, I said, you have a weakness for men. And my mom had a little bit of that too. Okay. And I remember thinking, if you don't get this right here, wow, this is going to be your story forever. Wow. And, yeah, I don't know, that just sort of stayed inside me to sort of have to admit that as a truth that I'm not strong in that department.

B (5:01)

Or at that time.

A (5:01)

Or at that time, yeah, for sure. At that time I was not for sure. Definitely. Because my husband is not this way. He does not fall into this category. But yay. Thank God.

B (5:11)

Yay for progress and healing.

A (5:13)

Exactly. But had to really just own that I wasn't. I wasn't. And part of that is also, you know, it's like youth, it's all these other things. But I just knew also there was a piece of it that wasn't. And I was like, I gotta get this right. So that was the bedrock. Okay. So then, then I don't know what came out of me then next. So we get home and then I was just like, you know, that's actually the truth of the situation. And with deeper reflection, I was able to really replay for myself the poor way in which I was actually being treated. It wasn't just the fact that I was clawing and putting myself in these really weak positions. It's also the fact that I had been disrespected. And I thought, why am I just holding that knowledge on my own? Yeah.

B (6:14)

Well, okay, wait, I have a question. So in that moment, did you feel like you had kind of gaslit yourself kind of Almost like the taking it on. Oh, I'm chasing and this and that. And then it's like, oh, no, no, no.

A (6:28)

Yeah, like, okay, yeah, exactly. And I' there's actually responsibility and accountability that go around. And what was crazy was so I, yeah, probably the part where most of us don't take the next step. I said, you know, I'm going to call them out. Basically, you know, I just decided I was gonna call him out because I think I had prior to that, been sort of apologizing for being too much or thinking that I was the reason. And it's like, no, actually you have some ownership here too. And so I just decided to send this text. And what was, what was. So that was my side. I was just clearing the deck for myself a little bit and just setting it straight. And there was. And if I'm being really honest, there was one text that I had to send to a guy where I had been the poor.

B (7:17)

Okay.

A (7:18)

Had been the poor person showing up into the relationship. I was not treating him well.

B (7:23)

Wow.

A (7:23)

And I had to apologize because if I'm gonna do this right, I'm like, you did this. You know, you were not good to me. You were not good to me. It's like, okay, but there's someone in there who I also was not good to. And I had to say I'm sorry to him.

B (7:36)

Yeah.

A (7:37)

And. But what was very unexpected, Monica, was every single person, including the person who I apologized to wrote me back.

B (7:47)

Oh, really?

A (7:47)

Okay, that was unexpected. Okay. I just thought I was gonna be met with silence.

B (7:52)

Right.

A (7:52)

And one called me.

B (7:54)

Okay, what's interesting?

A (7:57)

Two. Sorry, Two called. Two called me. What's interesting?

B (7:59)

Okay, now what year was this?

A (8:00)

This is like 2010. Yeah, 2010.

B (8:05)

So this is well before MeToo. Because I think a lot of people had those sort of had some kinds of conversations with people, Right. That were sort of reevaluating or even I've heard stories of some men being concerned, like reevaluating their own. I mean, usually I'm like, oh, if you're that guy, you probably didn't do anything either that if there's no NDA attached to that, then I think you're probably one of the good ones. But, you know. Yeah, like, okay, so were you. How did you feel when you were about to. Were you nervous or did you feel empowered?

A (8:44)

Both.

B (8:45)

Okay.

A (8:45)

I think I first felt nervous and then I felt nervous for sure. Cuz I didn't know what to expect. But once I sent them off and it was silent for a second I was like, okay, yeah, yeah, that's the truth. I didn't lie. Yeah, it was the truth. You know what I mean? So then I was like, yeah, you should know that about yourself and the truth of what happened here. Because I kind of felt empowered in the sense I was like, your peace is coming from my problem. And that's not how it should be.

B (9:23)

Say that again.

A (9:23)

Your peace of not thinking you're the good guy and that you didn't. You weren't disrespectful is actually coming from my problem, which is my weakness towards you. And that's actually not wholly true.

B (9:39)

Interesting.

A (9:40)

Part of it has to do with. Separate from my own weakness to you is your conduct. If I had even been strong, I think you would have behaved this way.

B (9:52)

Right.

A (9:53)

So you're. I don't want to give you the sort of hand cleanliness, say, that makes you feel like, I'm good. I was good in this. And it was you. All you. Yeah, yeah. That kind of came from it. But yeah. And I'll say, you know, one of the guys who'd been a dear friend of mine before we ever even dated, and we always had this sort of mangled friendship afterwards that we could never put the pieces back together. That truth allowed for us to come back to being the friends that we were.

B (10:26)

Wow.

A (10:27)

Because it was said.

B (10:28)

Yeah, yeah.

A (10:29)

You know what I mean?

B (10:30)

Yeah.

A (10:30)

Because it was said.

B (10:32)

I'm like, I'm now thinking we're gonna have to figure out a way that anybody who listens. How many people go and do this now? Right? It'll be Uzo Aduba day.

A (10:40)

Like, you know, with the text when you send it. Yeah, yeah. And I think there's something about if it's just. It was true. That was. It wasn't. I didn't lie on your name. I didn't say something that you didn't. It was what. This is what happened, you know, so you gotta own a little bit.

B (10:56)

It was. I so related to it. I was joking yesterday about how when the movie he's just not that into you from the book came out, I heard from friends around the fucking world, and everybody was like, I saw this movie. I thought of you. And I was like, oh, this is bad. This is really bad. You know?

A (11:14)

Yes. You're like, thanks. I don't know. What is the text you send back to that?

B (11:18)

I thought, yeah, I know. I'm like, okay. Been that girl. Been that girl lots of times. But it's so. I mean, it's just. It was all really Interesting. And you're saying about, like, some of that was. Was from your mom and your. No, your upbringing. Right. So you were raised in. I always want to say Medford, but that's Medford, Oregon. So it was Medfield. Medfield.

A (11:42)

Sorry. So.

B (11:43)

So Medfield, Massachusetts.

A (11:45)

Right.

B (11:46)

So it was a very predominantly white suburb outside of Boston. Right?

A (11:50)

Yes.

B (11:51)

And you're like, what I was reading, and that was so interesting to hear, was just about that you have this experience of being one of the few black Nigerian kids in your class. Right. Or the school. Or the class.

A (12:05)

The town.

B (12:06)

Wow.

A (12:07)

Yeah. Yeah, the school.

B (12:08)

But I. But I loved hearing about how your family still really held onto your Nigerian identity. Right. And so. And that was like. Was that more your mom, your dad?

A (12:21)

Both. It was both. You know, they were so proudly Nigerian, you know, and definitely poured that into each of their kids, you know, and I'm so thankful for that now, especially having a daughter, because I'm able to hand that off to her. You know, it doesn't die with me, or I'm not letting it. Anyway. Good for you. Thank you. But, yeah, you know, it was. So when I think about. If I could say it, put it in almost like a physical form, it's Monday through Friday, sort of watching them dress in their Western clothes and go to work. And then on the weekends, we would have Igbo organization group meetings in the city. And then you'd see them put on their West African Nigerian traditional wear proudly that they had tucked away, because that's at that time, you know, it wasn't really invited into the workspace. Right. And then they would take us into the city and we'd spend our afternoon with our Nigerian Igbo community. And I am so thankful for that. Or even, you know, oh, my gosh, sometimes it wasn't even going into the city. Sometimes it was coming into our own house. And our neighbors were so curious about it because they already have no exposure to our culture for the most part.

B (13:35)

Most of the people.

A (13:36)

And sometimes coming into our neighborhood, they would be like, what's that, your mom's cookie over there? And it's like, okay. You know, that's something they've never smelled before. You know, I remember my Uncle David got married at our house in our backyard, and it was this huge. Nigerian weddings are huge.

B (13:55)

Oh, okay.

A (13:56)

Massive events. You know, big.

B (13:57)

I'm imagining a lot of color, tons of color.

A (14:01)

A peacock parade of fashion, jewelry, clothes, hair ties. It's fabulous. Food, music. Just, like, big and loud. The smell of the jollof rice Wafting through the air. And so we had the wedding at my uncle's church, and then everybody proceeded to our house for the reception. And down the block, like the stretch of our street, the street is pretty long on both sides, cars everywhere. And then everybody walking up to our house and down our driveway was pretty steep to get to the backyard. We walking down the hill. And I just remember neighbors of ours sitting on their front steps, you know, watching everything that was happening, trying to sneak a peek or coming down, you know, they're walking their dog. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (14:55)

Okay, now, were they sort of. Were they like, you know, Gladys, the nosy neighbor from Bewitched, or were they genuinely curious?

A (15:03)

No, they were genuinely curious.

B (15:05)

Okay.

A (15:05)

Oh, that's nice.

B (15:07)

In a good way.

A (15:07)

In a good way. For the most part, I'm sure there were people there, like, how loud is this music going to be for how long? You know, But.

B (15:12)

But that's irrespective of a culture. Exactly, but.

A (15:16)

Exactly. But, yeah, curious because they had never seen it before in their life and they knew we were Nigerian. But now our culture was sort of spilling out into the streets and genuinely curious. Genuinely curious and dare I say, I think to some extent excited to see something different. And it's a quiet, sleepy street, you know. Yeah.

B (15:40)

Well, I just was thinking about. I wonder. I wonder the kind of long tail of that experience for some of these people who, you know, go, oh, well, my first exposure to a Nigerian community was my neighbor, you know, that. That sort of. And I'm so glad that you said Igbo first, because I would have said Igbo. That's what I had in my notes. I was like, yeah, that's okay. You know, it's all right. So it's a good thing. But, yeah. So did you feel in school that you had to sort of code switch? Were your parents code switch? Did you feel like the daily sort of Western wear during the week? It was a code switching in that way.

A (16:17)

And 100%. I think everybody was doing that in our house, in our community, who. We had another family who was from Kenya in our town, and those were the two Africans, you know, and then in my school, absolutely, you know, you already mentioned it. There weren't any black people in my school. You know, there were four of us, and I was related to three of them. You know, that kind of sort of like a thing, you know, so that wasn't common. And so figuring out, A, how to exist in that space, B, how to marry at your worlds was always a navigation for Us. It was always something that I was navigating, and. And I. And I think it happens in many different ways for people, you know, and that was the shape it took for me, like, culturally, racially. Those were two ways that I was just trying to move through, get through, survive to some extent, life. A life of teenage life.

B (17:28)

Right. But it's just. I'm just thinking about, you know, like, I should ask. So what came up for me was that's a burden to carry. But maybe it didn't feel like a burden. I'm, like, on top of hormones.

A (17:44)

Yeah, right.

B (17:45)

You're.

A (17:45)

Now. No, like. No, it does feel okay. It does feel that way at points, because not at all times. But I think there was a sharp awareness, because also, keep in mind we're talking the 90s. Right, right. And where we were. We're not there where we are today, you know, in a lot of cases. And so this idea of having to shoulder bias, of what is blackness, this idea that you're not even an idea, you know, the truth of the matter is my older brother and my older sister, who are quite my senior, they had been trailblazers and had experienced overwhelming racism, bigotry. My parents themselves, you know, they were redlined originally when they were trying to buy their home in our town, and it was because of just a compassionate realtor that they switched to, who did eventually show them the town they were trying to move to, which was our hometown of Medfield. And I was already aware of all of those things. So. Yeah, when you say burden, it is sort of that feeling where, you know that the people who came before you had a really rough road. So now my. I internalized that to mean that I had to be perfect.

B (19:23)

Oh, interesting.

A (19:24)

That I had to excel, be excellent. You know, part of that is the Nigerian side. That's just who we are.

B (19:32)

Right. Yeah.

A (19:34)

Part of it is also the atmosphere where I don't want to give anybody a reason to say, you see?

B (19:41)

Mm. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Gabrielle Union was on, and she talked about a similar feeling of that needing to be perfect and upholding an image that is both true and pushes back against other people's ignorance and bias.

A (20:03)

Correct, Correct.

B (20:04)

You know, so. And that just feels like such a heavy thing to carry as a kid.

A (20:09)

For sure. It's an unnecessary burden.

B (20:12)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (20:13)

And.

B (20:13)

And then it was amazing to me because you're, you know, like you. And you talked in your. Your memoir, too, about, you know, this wanting to fit in, so we're, you know, this mix. But then by Your senior year in high school. Right. Like, there's this amazing. Your graduation. If you want to tell a story. I was like, fuck, that's like, that's. I mean, you're young to. To step into yourself. I'll let you tell this story. So do you know what I'm talking about?

A (20:40)

No. Tell me which one now. Okay. I'm thinking about my gap.

B (20:43)

No, no, no. But we could talk about that, which is so amazing. But I was thinking more about that. Your graduation that you wanted your family to wear.

A (20:52)

Yes, yes.

B (20:53)

Yeah. That you wanted your. Your family to wear Nigerian dress, right?

A (20:57)

Oh, 100%. Because it's like, you know, I had had these different stages in my life, from my gap to my name to all these things where you're trying to fit into spaces that were never built for me, that you. Right. Like owning who you are. And that's a huge part of adolescence altogether. But. And by the time. Yeah. When I was in high school, my senior year, I had sort of really started to own all of myself. And I just remember. So I was speaking. I was a class president, and I was speaking. Going to speak at my high school graduation. And I was real excited. And my parents were so proud. And, you know, Nigerians, we don't come alone. We come as 1 million to things. It's just how we are. And so all of my family and my parents, friends were going to descend on our town. Yes, exactly. Descend on our town to, you know, be there for the big graduation day. And my parents, who on the weekends, like I said, would normally wear their traditional clothes. I remember my mom coming to me and she said, respectfully, you know, she said, so for your graduation, what is the dress? How should we dress? And I really think she meant it like, it's a summer day, you know, do you want floral skirts and dresses? Do you want us to wear suits and ties? What's the vibe? Jeans is enough. Like, what are you looking for? And I was in my room and I said, I want you to tell everybody. I want them to come in traditional clothes. Aqua.

B (22:46)

Yeah. Making me emotional. It's really.

A (22:50)

It got her emotional. Like, she stopped a little surprised. And it's rare for me to think of moments where I caught my mom off guard. And I think that was one of those moments where she was really caught off guard. Cause I don't think that's what she was asking, but it was perhaps the answer for a larger question of who are you going to be in this world? Yeah, Right.

B (23:19)

Yeah.

A (23:20)

And she knew in that moment I knew in that moment who I was, who I was. I had the answer to that question, that, no, I'm Nigerian. And proudly so. And she got choked up, like emotional, and she just was like, okay.

B (23:37)

Yeah.

A (23:37)

And I know she probably hopped on the phone and hand to everyone that she could, you know, so she wants traditional clothes. Everybody, you know, so proud, you know.

B (23:46)

Yeah.

A (23:46)

And I have pictures from that day. And I'm in my. So my school colors were blue and white. The girls wore white for graduation. And I am surrounded by my family and my white cap and gown regalia and all these beautiful colors. And I loved it because I can remember being at graduation and seeing my family come in like the army that they are flooding this very white space with their truth, you know, it was honest, Monica. Like, that's what it felt like. It felt honest. Like this is who I am. Nothing, you know, no pretending, no pretense, just truly us. Truly me.

B (24:37)

Yeah. That's really. I find that so powerful for someone so young. You know, I mean, I had streaks of social justice was really important to me. Like, I remember this one kid in high school who had gotten suspended or expelled and you know, and it was like I wrote a letter to the principal because I felt like he had had experiences in his life that he'd had disadvantages that contribute to why he had engaged in some of that behavior. And that should be considered. Right.

A (25:11)

Good for you.

B (25:12)

But I didn't have. I know. I think I was like the kid who was, you know, saying to my mom, don't wear that, that you look stupid, you know, or like, you know, so trying to change my. How my dad dressed and you know, especially when my parents got divorced, it was like, I remember taking my dad like, you cannot wear a striped Izod shirt anymore.

A (25:30)

Striped, I thought,

B (25:33)

poor guy.

A (25:35)

Oh, no, it was like, why the

B (25:37)

blue and yellow, the white, you know, Hilarious. Thankfully, my stepmom came along and, and, and she. Oh yeah, he's like a great dresser now, thanks to her.

A (25:48)

Hilarious.

B (25:48)

So. Yeah, but. So it's just, it's really. It just. It says so much about you in, in those ways. And, and I just, I don't know, I just, I think it's like a. You know, it sounds of kind corny, but it's like just a moment to honor, you know.

A (26:04)

Thanks. Thanks. I will take that. Well, you know, because I was, you know, and I also said. And I was. I said this even as it relates to my acting as well. But you know, when I think about it, I'm on that stage, I'm in this position at school. I'm having this incredible, unique opportunity. And the truth of the matter is there's a piece of it that has to do with the fact that I was born in this town and reared and raised up by this community. That is true, but also true that a lot of people sitting out in that audience don't know, realize is foundationally much of the success that I had found in school is actually rooted back to my Nigerian ness. I don't know if that's a word. Yeah, yeah, it's rooted back to that.

B (27:04)

Sure.

A (27:04)

Today it is.

B (27:05)

Today it is.

A (27:06)

We're adding it. Right. You know, six, seven can exist. Nine. Right. So it was rooted back to that truth. It's those roots. It's those values, those. That principle, that steadiness, that grounding that also is part of this. And I wanted that blend to be felt and seen. And I wanted my family to know that I was aware of that.

B (27:35)

As we've become a society that I think maybe in the last five years, 10 years, maybe have had more and more conversations about transgenerational trauma. Right. Do you look back on that moment and think you were actually healing something in a way for the ancestors or that even though they wouldn't have been in this country like that? I don't know. Does that make sense?

A (27:59)

Yes, I know what you mean. I don't know if I was as much healing something or maybe as I felt as perhaps that I was maybe advancing something, that my parents, who had come here at a time when they had to, or felt as though they had to assimilate entirely, and a lot of immigrants from various places, the culture felt as though you had to sort of renounce your cultural roots in order to exist or thrive here. It felt like almost, I would say, like a baton pass where what you had to do, I don't have to do.

B (28:51)

Right.

A (28:53)

I can actually. I have now. You have given me actually the agency and the opportunity and the ability to now be present, fully present, and claim, reclaim who we are. And I can do what you weren't given the opportunity to do, which is wear it loudly. And I'm really thankful for that. And I'm really. I'm really, really thankful for that. I think that because, you know, when you come to a new place, I think the wonder sometimes with parents who have immigrated people, at least with my parents, is everything that we are, who we are going to die here and be forgotten. And I think what felt great in that moment was, for me was Knowing that the answer was, no, it will not. No, it does not. It actually continues.

B (30:04)

It's interesting to me because my experience. My dad was born to German parents in El Salvador.

A (30:10)

Oh, wow.

B (30:11)

And came here when he was 14. And while my mom was born in the States, she was raised in Tokyo and came back when she was a teenager. And actually my grandma was born in China to Russian parents. So it's like this real mixing pot of cultures. But it never felt, I think, like truly the only real identity that I think felt like they brought with them was our being more culturally Jewish than religious. But there are all these little things that seep into. You know, I think my brother and I see of like, that seeped into our upbringing that came from all these different cultures, you know, but it's. And I don't know if. Because in each of those cases, they were sort of. They were already displaced. Like they were the children of immigrants. Right. Already immigrants and then immigrants. Right. Cause my grandparents left Germany and great grandparents left Russia. And so that whole thing. So it's really interesting to me of that just thinking about the kind of where that sense of deep identity lives and how it gets passed on. And it's. It's amazing. It's really interesting, really. You know, all the cultures. I love it. I love all the. I remember in second grade, we did this thing. Mrs. Miles. We did a thing for Christmas where.

A (31:43)

Mrs. Miles.

B (31:44)

Yeah, Mrs. Miles. And where we had to learn. We sort of studied how all the cultures did Christmas, and we did it in the classroom. It was like, I can't remember where it was. The shoe with the candy in it and this and then all the. All the different things. But you just sort of go, there's. There's so much richness in the world, in culture, and it is so heartbreaking to kind of see us focus in the world today on difference so much like. Or difference being a bad thing.

A (32:14)

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B (33:13)

I'm not sure if I'm going to get this all straight. So you did track in high school.

A (33:18)

Right.

B (33:19)

But you also sang in high school. Was it. Okay, so you sang and did track. You got a scholarship to BU in track, but also pursued a music.

A (33:28)

Yes.

B (33:29)

Right, okay.

A (33:29)

Yeah, you got it. Right.

B (33:30)

Okay. All right. And it was sort of. And you had these teachers throughout the way who really. You know, it's really interesting to me. One of the things I found fascinating about getting to have so many conversations with people is really being reinforced how the impact teachers have. How many people have sat across from me in these conversations and said, it was a teacher who noticed, saw, encouraged, you know, and so what was the pivot from singing to acting? Or was there no pivot because they both kind of coexist?

A (34:04)

No, there was the pivot in the sense that, you know, and they coexisted. But what really firmed it up for me that I was going to act. So I was in college. I was studying opera. Oh, wow. Yes. Classical voice. And, you know, the program has a lot of theater elements.

B (34:26)

I got into BU for theater. Oh, yeah. I was going to do costume. I was. I did costume design in high school. Yeah.

A (34:34)

I did not know that.

B (34:35)

Yeah. So I was like, everybody's. I'm a big theater nerd. Musical. Musical theater nerd in particular. Oh, well, it's like Guys and Dolls.

A (34:45)

Oh, we did Guys and Dolls in my high school.

B (34:48)

We did have a 16 base meeting, so. Exactly.

A (34:52)

Yeah.

B (34:53)

Yeah. So. And I used to sing, so I. Oh, my God. Yeah. Now just in the shower.

A (34:58)

Yeah.

B (34:58)

I love it.

A (34:59)

Oh, my gosh.

B (35:00)

I know.

A (35:00)

Learning something new today.

B (35:02)

Exactly. Exactly. So. But. But BU has an incredible theater. I didn't. I didn't get to go. An incredible theater program.

A (35:11)

It does indeed. And so being at College of Fine Arts was incredible. And honestly, on my second day, I felt like. I don't know why I don't feel like this is what I. Opera, meaning I thought it was supposed to be, you know, because in the morning, you know, we'd be doing movement class and, you know, rolling around on the floor and disembodied head and pretending we're trees and all these things. And, you know, we'd have Alexander and acting and all these things. And then in the afternoon, it would be music history. And as we're learning about Mozart and Rachmaninoff and Beethoven. Exactly. And I was like, I think I like the rolling around on the floor. You know, it was like, kind of was like where I did. So I knew I was more. I was gravitating more to the elements that were from the theater side. But the real sharp change came my sophomore year. Acting teacher Jim Sproul was outside, who was the coolest guy in the world. Like, hands down, you know, this beatnik salt and pepper beard, always. And no matter the today, cloudy or sunny, always had these tinted sunglasses, always a puff of smoke coming out his dad's office. You know what I mean? Just that guy.

B (36:44)

Yeah.

A (36:44)

You would go to watch shows and, you know, and you're watching your friends on stage, and in the quietest moment of the show, you just hear from. And you know, Jim was in the building and he would talk during the show, just out loud at the stage, you know, just the coolest, but also one of the most remarkable teachers. And so the next year, my junior year, I was walking into the building and he was sitting out front. There's this bench out front of CFA College of Fine Arts. And he was like, I need to talk to you. And I was like, okay. And I sat down and he was telling me how there was this play from one new play from one of the writing majors. And Kira, that was a two hander.

B (37:27)

What does that mean?

A (37:29)

Two actors?

B (37:29)

Okay.

A (37:30)

And it was set in South Africa. And even though acting majors are the only people who are supposed to be in these shows or people on the theater major decide, he said, I've given the recommendation that you should be the other actor. Wow. And we all agree that you should be wow. And I was so giddy inside. And that face you just made was also me. I was, wow. Like, whoa. And he said, you know, you still have to maintain your core curriculum. This doesn't swap or not swap, changing anything. You have to have rehearsal after the day ends, which are pretty long days there, you know, and figure out how to fit it in. But if you want it, it's yours. And I wanted it. And the minute, and I do mean the minute, the very first day of rehearsal, I was one. And there was this night where it was two in the morning or something, and I was poring over the script and I had all these notes in the margins across the pages of ideas and inspirations, and I was working on it for hours and hours and hours. And I said to myself, I don't work this hard at my major. Interesting. Yeah. You know, so I think I'm supposed to use this degree to act.

B (39:14)

What an interesting thing to be able to kind of have a memory of when your passion was born or discovered. You know, I think that's rare. You know, people kind of fall into something and then they realize, you know, over time. But you have this concrete moment. I just think that feels so powerful and such clarity.

A (39:36)

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And it changed everyone because it was so clear. It was no longer acting in this one hour session a day. It was building a character, getting the opportunity to perform it out in the open space. Invitation and initiation into the side of myself that felt true and really charged and passionate.

B (40:11)

Yeah, I know that you then went to New York and you were doing theater. Have you done musical theater?

A (40:18)

I have done musical theater. Okay.

B (40:20)

All right. And is that something you're gonna, like, do again?

A (40:23)

Yes.

B (40:24)

Or have you done it recently?

A (40:25)

I haven't done it recently. I have. I love musicals. So the last. I was part of the Broadway revival of Godspell.

B (40:32)

Okay.

A (40:33)

That was the last musical on Broadway that I've done. But, yeah, I love musicals. I love just good stories, a good story that's, you know, moving into TV and the film space taught me. Cause I was a little nervous, having come from the theater, what this was gonna be like. And what I realized is that a good story is a good story, no matter the medium. So, yeah, I would. I miss singing. I mean, I sing every day in the shower too.

B (41:01)

You know, I have a feeling you're still better than me, but, you know,

A (41:05)

we'll see, you know, but it'. I do do that, and I sing to my daughter. But, yeah, I definitely. Definitely. Absolutely, absolutely.

B (41:16)

So there's this incredible story, right? You moved to New York. You're, like, now doing. You're gonna be an actor. And things are not, like. I don't know exactly what year this is, but there's a point, right?

A (41:28)

We're in the 2000s now. Okay, 2000s, 2010. Oh, yeah, go ahead.

B (41:32)

Okay, so now 2010. Now, is this before or after the boys, the Voitex, I guess you had auditioned for Orange is the New Black.

A (41:40)

Yes.

B (41:41)

Had not heard anything, and had gotten to this point, right, where you were like, maybe this isn't for me. Right. You were thinking about law school. Is that so?

A (41:49)

Wait, that's after the text.

B (41:51)

Okay.

A (41:52)

This is after the text. Okay. And set in that context, Monica. It's making me, like, start to wonder what I'm, like, awakening to in that season of my life. This is about. This is about two years, two and a half years after that. And Godspell had closed. I had a manager who came to see the show, and she was from la. And I had never, at this point in my career, in pursuit of this dream, ever even tried to do film and television. I was just doing theater, okay? You know, everybody called it. Everybody talks about theater, you know, as the island of misfit toys a little bit, but welcoming all types, right? All people, all are welcome sort of vibe. And Hollywood felt like a place I just had never seen myself self in. And so it didn't feel like there was a seat there at that table. And so I was too afraid to even dream it, frankly. And so this manager comes to see me in Godspell. We meet up and, you know, she enjoyed my work. And she says to me, have you ever thought about doing something in film and television? I said, no, I lied. That's not true. I thought about it all the time, but didn't want to risk it. And she said, I think. I think we should try something in that. I think. I think there might be a space for you. Which, you know, she's from Hollywood, right? She must know something, you know, and it's funny how things like that happen, because it was just. Just the right amount of encouragement to give me the confidence to believe. To be foolish enough to believe, right? And so that summer, so she says to me, actually, what she says to me is, she said, so we're gonna do that. I started working with her. She said, we're not auditioning. We're not taking any plays. We're not taking any offers for any plays. And we're not doing any theater. We're just doing filming. To me. And I was like, little do you know, lady, I'm not getting theater offers. But, okay, thanks for the vote of confidence. I thought that I am, you know, whatever. And so I. I just auditioned for movies, TV shows, all the time. Slammed, slammed, slammed. I never had so many auditions in my life.

B (44:36)

Wow.

A (44:37)

And everything was, no, no, no, no, no. And that chipped away at that confidence she had built up in me. And I felt like a fool, honestly, that I had even dared to think that I could do this. And it was one day I went to one audition and I was late, which is, you know, the cardinal sin of actors. You don't. You're not. Yeah, no. Do not be late for your audition. That's not what we did. That's not what we do. You're not supposed to be late. And I remember thinking that I thought I could get that one. And I was so bummed that I was late. And I was like, fuck. I was like, uzo, I had a great audition. I was like, that was a great audition, but you're not gonna get the job. Cause you were late. And this is God, Universe, everything, telling you that this is not for you. You keep trying to make like, fetch happen. It's not happening, you know, it's like it's not happening. And. And I just cried the whole walk home to the subway. Tears. That New York subway cry. That's quiet. Oh, yeah, you know. You know.

B (45:47)

Oh, I've been there.

A (45:48)

Yeah. And I just. On the train was, you know, my whole life, my parents thought I was gonna be a lawyer. And I think you've been fighting your purpose. And I just decided then that I wasn't gonna do it anymore. I said, if you can. I prayed, I was like, if you can make the way, I will go. And I remember thinking to myself, like, okay, I quit. And it was the first time I'd ever quit. I had doubted before, but I had never quit before. But I remember also feeling like, okay, I'm gonna call my sister. I'm gonna order some sushi and wine. I'm gonna invite her over, I'm gonna tell her that I'm quitting this and I'm gonna go be a lawyer. And I was like, okay, now everything that happens for my life from here on out is gonna be on purpose. Got home, ordered the sushi, ordered the wine, laid down on the couch. 5:43pm It's a Friday. And my agent and manager at the time called and they said that I had been. Well, they said, they said, do you remember that audition you went on a couple weeks ago for that show, Orange is the New Black? And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember. And they're like, you remember the part you auditioned for? I said, yeah, I auditioned for the track star. I remember, yeah. Which was. I did. I auditioned for a different part, okay. Than the one I wound up playing. And they said, okay, yeah, so you didn't get it? And I was like, I'm leaving this business at the right time. We're now calling actors to tell them we didn't get the job. So this is the perfect out, you know. And they said, but they would like to offer you. Wow, Another part. Uh huh. And I said, what? And they said, part of Crazy Eyes. And I was like, oh my gosh. But I was weeping. And my sushi wine. Quitting party now Became, you know, just as. When I thought I was out, they pulled me back in kind of a moment. But, yeah, that was the time.

B (47:57)

And when you. I was like, when you got. So then when you're looking at Crazy Eyes, and what does that feel like? I mean, I'm sure you brought so much to the character, but I could also imagine reading about this character, and was there a moment where you were like, what do they see in me? For my audition?

A (48:16)

For sure, 100%. Cause I was like the track star to the crazy Eyes. Like, what? But then I've since seen my audition tape, and I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah.

B (48:26)

Is that public, that when they see it?

A (48:27)

Yes. Yes.

B (48:28)

Okay.

A (48:28)

I'm like, okay, now I see what you see in there. I was like, I was crazy. Like, I'm fucking nuts over here. Looking great over here. But, yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (48:39)

And did you find, like, were there moments? Because it seems like even though there were, I'm sure, difficult moments in your childhood, in navigating these two identities, and I'm sure so many different things, if we had 8 million hours, we could talk about. But were there things in your background and experience that helped you build that character? Because such a. I mean, iconic. You won. I think you're like one of two people who's ever won both a Drama Emmy. An Emmy for Drama and an Emmy for Comedy for the same role. Right. I mean, so, like, where did that come from in you?

A (49:20)

Well, I'll bring it back to your first question. When I read the part, I saw two things. One, cause Jenji, who was just Genji. Cody. Cody, she's a genius. An actual genius, you know, like, truly one of the smartest human beings I've ever met in my life. And I mean that both artistically and intellectually. Wow. Just a. You know, when you meet people who are just brilliant minds. She's a brilliant mind. Had written such a beautiful and clear story. I could see it. And then when I read the descriptor for Crazy Eyes, I remember it said to me, it conjured this idea. He's like, it's innocent, like a child, except children aren't crazy. Something like that was the description. And I thought of this innocence about her, that an honesty, a purity. There was one layer, but kind of bringing it back to the start of our conversation, the other layer was I read a love story. When I read it, that's what I saw. I saw somebody in those early episodes fiercely defending, protecting the things she loves, a person she loves. And I knew that story that I Knew. And that was my entry into the part that somebody who loves so deeply, what you would do for love, anything was the answer for me. And so that became her answer. Anything. And so that's how I kind of approached it. I approached her. So the rest, you know, to me, the rest of, you know, the crazy and da, da, da. That was decorative, you know, I felt like that's already built in by the fact we call her that. So the audience is already gonna understand there. Okay, so anything. I have no limits then to do whatever I want. The permission has already been given to her and maybe a little bit to me to do what I would want to do when it comes to the people I love, to the thing I love.

B (51:46)

Do you think that ultimately was this sort of connective tissue for so many people to kind of fall in love with her in this weird way as a character that. Because we all can relate to love in some way, you know, and some of us relate to loving love more than others, you know, I mean, it's just.

A (52:07)

Yeah, maybe. I think maybe, you know, with her, I just. I think people. Yeah, I think so. Maybe people connected to that.

B (52:20)

That.

A (52:21)

It's just she. What I know about her is that that character. There's no filter there. And I wonder, maybe people felt their own filter come off maybe a little bit. Maybe just the truth of what you really think and feel and maybe say. And recognizing, you know, Suzanne, to me, was always just somebody who was doing her best.

B (52:49)

And did you. In your mind, did you think of her as Suzanne, or did you think of her as Crazy Eyes?

A (52:55)

I only called her Suzanne. I only ever called her Suzanne. Cause Taylor's character, Piper, you know, she says her name once in an early episode, Episode two or episode three, season one. I can't even believe I still remember that. But she says her name once and everybody else calls her Crazy Eyes, you know, throughout. And I remember thinking, yeah, I'm gonna call her Suzanne. Because she doesn't call herself that. They call her that. She doesn't. That's not how she sees herself. That's something people are placing on her, which was another part of the character. So who is Suzanne? That's what I was interested in getting to. Not who do people think of her as being or what do people think of her as being? How does she see herself? And she does not call herself crazy. She calls herself Suzanne.

B (53:50)

Right. Right.

A (53:51)

Yeah.

B (53:51)

No, it's so. I mean, and it's interesting because you've gone on to play these really varied role. And I think I Read somewhere that it was intentional to you to not be kind of typecast into this and that. I mean, Shirley chisholm was in Mrs. America, like, playing that role. Did that feel like a complete opposite?

A (54:15)

Oh, yes. The only thing similar was that they both had iconic hair.

B (54:23)

I mean, that was what I was imagining you would say, you know, I mean, not the hair part, but I was like. But I think that, like, that sort of importance to showing range. And then I think there's a. I'm gonna find it. There's a great quote you have somewhere. Oh, that range itself feels political. Yeah, you said that.

A (54:49)

I know I said that. I was like, I'm loving the return to lines. I'm like, these are just sidebar, like, things that I've not even heard people say to me over the time. You know, back to me. Like, I appreciate. Yeah, I think it is political because the opportunity to sort of explore the fullness of not only your ability, but the width and depth of who we are as far as my community is concerned, for not only myself, but for anybody in my industry is rare. It's rare. And so it almost becomes an action when you get the opportunity to do it. And that's not one that I take lightly. I'm very, very, very grateful and appreciative of. And I recognize. I just had the conversation the other day last week, in fact, with my manager, Eric. I was talking to him about it. I sent him a text. How deeply thankful and grateful I am for this incredible career. This journey is actually what I would have been on that it's not lost on me, the width and size of difference in parts and experiences and characters that I've had the opportunity to play. It's not lost on me. And what really is not lost on me is that hopefully that has been an opportunity for space opening for other actors to do the same. I'm really, truly thankful for that. And he was instrumental in, you know, really hearing me when it came to Orange sort of wrapping up. And I did not want to be known for that. I wanted. Or not known for that. Excuse me. I didn't want to be doing that over and over again. I didn't want to do the next to be, you know, Crazy Eyes 2.0.

B (56:49)

Right.

A (56:50)

You know, I wanted to act. I really did. I wanted to tell stories, different ones, you know, and to then have the follow up to orange be Mrs. America was just, wow, mind blowing. Yeah. For me.

B (57:04)

I know Stacy Cher, we had a project and I love Stacey. I know, I know.

A (57:10)

I love Stacy Cher.

B (57:12)

Me too.

A (57:13)

Full stop.

B (57:14)

Me too. We had a project together that sadly didn't quite make it through Covid. But. Yeah. No, but she's just. She's such a powerhouse, and I'm determined to find something else to do with her. Yes, we'll find something together with Stacey. I know Sarah Paulson also. Yes.

A (57:31)

Oh, Paulson.

B (57:32)

I mean, yeah.

A (57:33)

Yes. What a talent there.

B (57:34)

Oh, my God. I'm like, I admire her and she played my worst enemy, you know, I like. You know, so. But. Exactly.

A (57:47)

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B (58:20)

You then found yourself sort of after all this success, you now were in a new role with your mom.

A (58:27)

Yeah.

B (58:27)

Like your mom being diagnosed. Right. With pancreatic cancer. I mean, your mom sounds like she was noyem.

A (58:34)

Is that nonem? Yes.

B (58:36)

Okay. And so just like such an incredible woman. And your memoir was. You can tell me the title of

A (58:43)

your the Road is Good. The Road is Good. Which is my name in English. My full name is Ozamaka, and it means the Road is good. Wow. So that's where the title came from. No, my mom was. Was and remains the most incredible person I've ever met. Impressive person I've ever met. Incredibly brilliant. That same thing. Just creatively smart, but just intellectually very intelligent woman. Hardworking. Truly remarkable. Just a remarkable lady. Best person I ever known. And warm and wonderful and disciplined and an example for how you reach hard things. She was just so great and, you know, a thing that I still say now and that she led me off with when I moved to New York first, pursuing this thing. She said, just work hard, Uzo. Just work hard. And she used to say it to all of us growing up, this next thing. But for some reason on this day, it really stayed with me. She said, I've never heard of nothing coming from hard work.

B (59:56)

Wow.

A (59:57)

And wait, say it again. I've never heard of nothing coming from hard work. I've never heard of it. She said, if you work hard, something will come. I don't know when it will come. I don't know what will come, but something will come if you work hard. And that's the thing. I just, you know, repeated. I repeated that refrain the whole time I was chasing this thing down. And, you know, I had the incredible honor of being with my sisters, of caregiving for her when she became sick. And my mom was always my hero. And I think the thing that I'm most grateful for. Is that when it came to the end of her story, she actually was exactly the woman she presented herself to be. She never. She had so many outs.

B (61:11)

That's like. That's just such a. I mean, it's so rare that I don't even think that that's something most of us even think about or notice. Right. Like, that chasm between who we think we are, who we want to be, how we actually are. I mean, that is.

A (61:29)

That is.

B (61:30)

It's very powerful.

A (61:31)

Very powerful. I can remember a day with the last day. All of my siblings and I were with her, and she's at the head of her bed and she's talking, and I was just looking at her and what she was saying, and it wasn't performative, and she really wasn't saying it for us to comfort us. She's. Well, you know, am I sad to leave? Yes. I want to be here with you people, of course. She said, but I. Because she was telling us she gets to go to heaven. She was like, I'm going to heaven. God told me I'm going to heaven. He came and told me, I'm going to heaven. And I said, am I sad I'm not going to be with you? She said, yes. She said, but I get to go be with my God. And I was looking at her, and she just was, you know, talking and sharing. And I remember thinking to myself, this woman is exactly who she's always said she was and just being and thanking the energy and the force in the universe. And I said, I am. In my head, I said to myself, I'm so glad I picked you to be my hero. You are exactly who you said you were. You know, telling us the hard stuff, the great stuff, the nervous stuff, but this is who you are. But still long in her spine. And that just mattered.

B (63:02)

Yeah. When you were growing up, were you able to understand all her hard work? Like, did it land as something that was, this is what we do, this is important? Or as a kid, was it hard to see why you hear more? Or is there any. Cause I'm just thinking about, my dad's a doctor, and as a kid, I couldn't understand, oh, he just might have had to tell somebody they have six months to live. He's a radiation oncologist. So coming home, you know, sure, he has a drive home to transition, but it's a heavy day. It doesn't matter how adorable I am. There's something real and heavy there. And so I'm just wondering if that. Because it was probably. I mean, you're a little under a decade younger than me, but, you know, all our moms weren't working.

A (63:59)

Yeah, sure. So 100%. Well, it depends on the season of life. Right. You know, my parents were, you know, I come from a pretty humble background, and so they were working a lot. Quite a bit, you know, and it depends on the, you know, when there were leaner times, my mom had to take on other jobs as well as being a social worker. You know, when I was in the first grade, it was pretty cool because my mom was working at McDonald's. And before, you know, I'm one of five. So before when we would go to McDonald's, we just got the 20 piece nugget and we had to split it between each. All the five of us. Right. But then when you worked at McDonald's, I got happy Meals. I could get a Happy Meal.

B (64:45)

That's so amazing. I could imagine that that probably was pretty fucking cool as a kid.

A (64:50)

Oh, it was amazing. It was the best. I was like. And I was telling people at school, my mom works at McDonald's. It's like, I could get as much as I want. I could get two Happy Meals. I could get two toys if I wanted it. I could get a milkshake.

B (65:02)

I bet all these kids were going home to their parents. Like, Herzo's mom works at McDonald's, you know, what are you doing?

A (65:09)

Exactly. You know, and so my mom. And then. But then when you do get older, you start to realize, like, oh, okay, she's working a lot. And she was working a lot. And, you know, she was working at a retail store on the weekends when I was older and I, going back to this idea of excellence, wanted her to be home and doing the job that she's supposed to be doing. She got two master's degrees for, you know, and.

B (65:43)

What? Two master's degrees?

A (65:44)

Yes. My mom has two masters. Yes. Wow. Yeah. And so it wasn't until I got out of the house that you start replaying the tape. Yeah. I realized I wanted her around more. Both my parents, you know, to be around more, but they weren't because those things that they were out doing were actually enabling my sibling and I's to Have ballet lessons. I figure skated for 10 years. Play the cello, the violin, the saxophone.

B (66:20)

Wow.

A (66:21)

To go. To be a part of inroads for my sister to go to Cornell, whatever, you know, these were all contributing factors to those opportunities. And so I found myself later, actually, I think we do it as kids again, revisiting that and addressing it. Our parents who don't know what it is to be a parent or an adult even until we're one, you know, and having to go back to her and really thanking her for pouring so much into me and my brothers and sisters, because we would have never had any of that without them. Simply, we just wouldn't.

B (67:06)

I mean, she sounds like an incredible woman. And I'm glad to hear you were saying earlier, too, that you're able to really, I think, pass so many of the learnings from her and your Nigerian background into your daughter.

A (67:21)

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's the best.

B (67:24)

It's amazing. How old is she?

A (67:27)

She's two. Two years old. It's the best. And, you know, I see she's so funny. My little. My little best friend over there, I call my little shadow. Like, it's like, she's the best. Because I see even. You know, because I was. I was wondering, you know, there was a time when I was pregnant, I was like, you know, my mom was gone, and I'm like, man, you know, what do I gonna know what to do? You know, how am I gonna do this without my mom? Or. Oh, man, you know, what am I gonna give her of my mom? You know, that. Because she's not here. This and that. And then when she started walking, started talking. My mom, who was a big talker. So am I. My mom used to say this thing all the time when we were kids. No, no, no. When she didn't want us to do that. And I never have a day in my life ever, said this expression. But she would always say, no, no, no, don't touch that. No, no, no, no, leave that. Whatever. And one day we were in the house. My daughter was walking, and she was heading towards the stairs and the gate. I was getting ready to close the gate. I said, adeba, not the stairs. And she goes, no, no, no.

B (68:36)

Oh, my God.

A (68:37)

And I swear. And I. Your face is my face. That I just was, like, completely shocked. Wow. And I don't say that, but I was floored. Where she got that from? But it dawned on me in that moment, she doesn't have to physically be here. She's already given me everything to know what to do that she would have done if she were here. And it's in her already.

B (69:09)

That's beautiful.

A (69:09)

Yeah, it's wonderful.

B (69:11)

The last question I ask everybody is if there is anything you are currently working on reclaiming and that, you know, we use a very elastic definition here, you know, of getting something back that was lost or taken from you. And it could be a person or a memory or a thing or a.

A (69:32)

I am reclaiming my. I am reclaiming. I guess I would say it's my confidence or my cheer. My mother cheered so hard for me that sometimes I'm not sure I even needed to cheer for myself. I knew that feeling. That feeling. And it was so strong and so big that a lot of things that I pursued, I kind of sometimes think it was just the fact that she believed so strong that it made me think that I could do it. And so when she was gone, I didn't know how to believe. I'm reclaiming my belief.

B (70:28)

Yeah.

A (70:29)

That's what it is. And realizing that just as she's everywhere for my. And in everything for my daughter, she is everywhere in and everything for me, too.

B (70:44)

Yeah.

A (70:45)

And I just need to believe it for it to be so.

B (70:51)

Yeah. Oh, it's beautiful. You can also have my mom. She'll cheer for you, too. She's a good cheer later.

A (70:56)

I love that. I love a good cheerer. I love that. I love hearing that, too.