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- [00:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free. Right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. You know, nowadays we have kind of get ready videos with me on TikTok, but you really pioneered that by going by selling in infomercials.
- [00:31]
Victoria Jackson
Right? Infomercials. And it was like one of my students was in my class and she said, I know this group of guys that sell products on tv. And I said, oh, wow, like, I have a really great idea of how to sell cosmetics on tv. I did not. I was sort of winging that.
- [00:55]
Monica Lewinsky
Reclaiming is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice. Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called Auto Quote Explorer that allows you to compare your progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies so you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this episode@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. I am so excited to have you, Victoria. Welcome to Reclaiming.
- [01:37]
Victoria Jackson
Thank you. Happy to be here.
- [01:39]
Monica Lewinsky
It's hard to believe that we've only known each other for five years.
- [01:43]
Victoria Jackson
Wow. Yeah, I know. Because it really does feel like lifelong friends.
- [01:47]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, exactly. Or sisters or. I mean, I was thinking of. We both sort of, I think, have overcome these pretty extraordinary tragedies, which I think also meant we. We kind of had this shared trauma language. And we both love to laugh. Laughter's like never far from a moment, even when it's a bad moment.
- [02:07]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah. A sense of humor. You gotta have a sense of humor to get. To get through it all.
- [02:11]
Monica Lewinsky
And you laugh a lot. I mean, I find when we're playing mahjong, if you start laughing, I can't look at you because then I'll start laughing and not stop. You know, I don't think I know anybody who wears more hats than you do. Of all the things you do and all you've accomplished, it's such a long list. I have to read it.
- [02:28]
Victoria Jackson
Okay.
- [02:29]
Monica Lewinsky
So I've just, like, I. Because it's amazing all the different ways I've learned so much from you, around Reclaiming, from so many of your experiences and. And am in awe, you know. So you are Victoria Jackson, a makeup mogul, co owner of the bookstore, godmothers, author of five books, including We All Worry now what that we're going to chat on later. Co founder of a foundation to support families with the rare disease nmo. Neuromyelitis. Did I say that right?
- [03:02]
Victoria Jackson
Neuromyelitis optica. You certainly did.
- [03:04]
Monica Lewinsky
Thank you. Have gotten three drugs through the FDA approval process, which is unbelievably difficult. And you did so by getting the drug companies to work together, which is unheard of.
- [03:18]
Victoria Jackson
Right.
- [03:19]
Monica Lewinsky
There's more. You've been inducted into the Women's hall of Fame and by Gloria Steinem, no less. Met and were honored by the late Pope. Are a devoted daughter, grandma, mom, wife, friend. I don't know if I missed anything.
- [03:33]
Victoria Jackson
Oh, that's pretty good. Yeah, I'm already tired.
- [03:36]
Monica Lewinsky
I find it. It's so easy for me to be self critical and I have to work really hard to kind of step into moments of being proud of myself or something having gone well and I wondered if for you, you're sitting there and you hear this list, are you able to take it all in? What does that feel like for you?
- [03:56]
Victoria Jackson
I mean, I take it in, but you know, it's so much of it, like that whole little house of, you know, accomplishments, things, life's journey. However I want to frame it, it's been built on a lot of low self esteem, really. Building my company originally, even getting into the beauty business was more like, oh my gosh, everything I do actually has always been like, oh, if I can do this, you can do it. So I've really suffered with that. And yet it's kind of through all the adversity and all the challenges and the self doubt and the low self sense of myself, I've managed to accomplish all these things.
- [04:31]
Monica Lewinsky
I have found, kind of going into my 50s, that there are just certain things about myself that I kind of was. I always used to hammer myself on and now I just accept it. And so when you're talking about having self esteem issues, which is shocking to me, that you would still have, having accomplished all that, do you feel, is that something you're still trying to work on, shaping and improving or do you. Or have you just accepted that and gone, okay, this just happens to be my thing and I'm gonna keep doing everything as I was doing it, if that makes sense.
- [05:06]
Victoria Jackson
I mean, look at, you're always, I'm always looking for improvement. And you know, I am who I am. I'm going into my. You're going in your 50s here. I'm going into my 70s and it's kind of like, whoa. So yeah, I Mean, there's a lot of self acceptance at this point. And I know, like, I know that I'm somebody who really struggles with, you know, from time to time, depression and anxiety. And that is just something that I'm much more gentle with myself and show myself a little more grace, that, okay, today may be more challenging, you know, based on what I'm dealing with with that day. And I navigate through it and I know that it will pass and it will morph into something different. And I have better tools in the toolbo to figure it out. And I think because of that, I have a lot of empathy toward people that struggle with it, you know, and we all worry now. What really was written is again, everything has always been like a guidebook of how I did it. I sort of identify what the issues are and then I try to, you know, give you. Here's my little manual of how I navigated it, whether it was in, you know, doing makeup. Right. It was kind of. My first book was called Redefining Beauty. And Redefining Beauty was all about, here's how to make your eyes bigger and your lips fuller and all the things everybody wanted to know. We should say that you.
- [06:27]
Monica Lewinsky
Sorry to interrupt, but that you did my makeup today.
- [06:29]
Victoria Jackson
Yes. And wow, don't your eyes look bigger already? You know, you look so beautiful. But my second book was called make up youp Life, which is more like, okay, here's how I did it. But now that you know you've got these instructions of, you know, how to look great, what are you going to go out and do? Make up your life. Like, really go out there and kick some ass. So it's always been like, here's what I'm working on and then here's the real how to piece of it and why it matters. Right.
- [06:58]
Monica Lewinsky
So just like, take me back, because if I remember correctly, you started your makeup business out of your garage.
- [07:06]
Victoria Jackson
Yep, in my garage.
- [07:07]
Monica Lewinsky
You had gone to beauty school. And so what's the timeline of kind of going to beauty school, becoming a makeup artist?
- [07:14]
Victoria Jackson
It was in the 70s that I went to beauty school, you know, and I didn't go to college. So I was really looking for something as a creative person that I am, what could I do, where could I go? Knowing also, I didn't have money, so I needed a little scholarship. So I went to the Marinello School of Beauty. And, you know, where you go through 1600 hours of learning, like makeup and hair and, you know, the whole thing. And I knew that I wanted to do a certain kind of makeup. I wasn't naturally talented or gifted or this amazing artist. I really had to learn how to do it. But I wanted to do things that were more natural and more like women not using makeup as a mask, you know, because think of late 70s as I went into 80s, there's a lot of makeup. Even when I started making my foundation, my makeup in my garage, it came because I couldn't find there was scarcity in the marketplace of nothing in this, like, neutral beige tones, yellow undertones, more natural looking foundations. Right. Everything was pinks and oranges. Kind of like old.
- [08:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. For all skin. Skin tones, like, it was just very.
- [08:19]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah.
- [08:19]
Monica Lewinsky
Rudimentary. Yeah, yeah.
- [08:21]
Victoria Jackson
So I started, like, literally taking a little bit of this, a little bit of that, making up pots and pans and making my own foundation. And then I again, wanting to teach what I was learning, I started to work as a working makeup artist. And after doing that for a while, I decided I wanted to teach a class. And I taught an extension class at UCLA for 10 years.
- [08:44]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, interesting.
- [08:45]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah. Which was every quarter I would have about 50 students signed up. And a lot of times you'd see, like, guys that were taking the class. Right. Just because they wanted to meet the gals. Right. So I would be like, so you want to be a makeup artist? And they're like, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, Right, right, yeah, sure. So it really. That's when I realized I could create a product. I had all these students. I could see, you know, what people were responding to. It was a great, you know, my little test.
- [09:12]
Monica Lewinsky
Mark your incubator.
- [09:13]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah. And then I started selling my foundations, where all the Hollywood makeup artists went. And my line was called Victoria Jackson Beauty Basics.
- [09:21]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, nowadays we have kind of get ready videos with me on TikTok. But you really pioneered that by going by selling in infomercials, right?
- [09:31]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah, infomercials. And it was like one of my students was in my class and she said, I know this group of guys that sell products on tv. And I said, oh, wow. Like, I have a really great idea of how to sell cosmetics on tv. I did not. I was sort of winging that. And I thought about it, and she goes, really? I'd like to get you a meeting with them. I said, yeah, that'd be great. And that's how I started. I did my first infomercial. And I always say this. This is really great for anybody listening and having, like, you think of all the things that, you know, go wrong or, like, you're so afraid. My low self Esteem, which has always been right in the forefront for me. Right there I was really having been a makeup artist, now I was going to be, you know, like the CEO of a cosmetic company. And it's like, what would she look like and dress like? And, you know, when I showed up for my first infomercial, there was the cinematographer. We were actually shooting in film in those days. And he looked at me and he said, you know. And there was a whole group around. And he goes, you know, Victoria, I have photographed the most beautiful people in the world. And I have found there's two types of women. There's women with great beauty and there's women with great brains. And you are a woman with great brains. And I was just like, oh, wow. Okay, dude, thank you. So he goes. I was just like. And everyone looked at me like, oh, my gosh. And I was like, well, then I just know you're going to make me look just the best I can look, you know? And it was so funny. Like, cut to. They had me in a director's chair, like out in the parking lot. Like, you go, so we're gonna get you some air and we're gonna. I was like, and cars are whizzing by and I'm, you know, going, okay, Victoria, when you go back in the studio and you get on that stage, you're just gonna, like, your worst fears have happened. Like, somebody was kind of saying, you're not that attractive. And I was like, I'm gonna get back in there and I'm just gonna. So what I know is this amazing product that I've created, like practically in my garage. And we did a million dollars a week on our first airing of that show. And basically it never stopped. I did.
- [11:39]
Monica Lewinsky
I mean, that would be a lot to sell in a week in today's times.
- [11:44]
Victoria Jackson
Yes.
- [11:44]
Monica Lewinsky
And this was in the 70s or the 80s, now the 80s.
- [11:48]
Victoria Jackson
Now I'm doing my first infomercial.
- [11:50]
Monica Lewinsky
But still, that's a fuck ton of money.
- [11:51]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah, it is. And you know, to get people to, you know, infomercials were new. Nobody was selling color cosmetics on T. They were always saying. Even my partners at the time were like, I don't know if this is gonna work. Women need to see them and touch them and, you know, put them on their face. And how are they gonna buy through TV? And it went on. I did 13 years of infomercials and I did over 600 products that I created. Wow.
- [12:17]
Monica Lewinsky
How did you find in yourself where you're holding the self esteem issues and you were just telling us about how you're kind of talking to yourself, but where you found the strength or the wisdom to kind of tell the self esteem part that probably wanted to, I'm imagining, not do something. But I mean, you push through. You push through so much and so many times. I mean, I know a lot of bits and pieces of your story, but I don't think I ever had a sense before of how many times you had to trust your instinct.
- [12:56]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah, well, it's also like there was a lot of fake it till you. You make it or act as if or. And then eventually, you know, when I was not questioning anymore how would a CEO look or dress or sound like or. At one point I just realized I am that person now, you know? So I have a thing where if I can see it in my mind, this is just me. Not even if I believe it. I just have to see the picture. So I create the image in my head or the story that I want to see, see it all in pictures, and then I just work to create it.
- [13:30]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. When you visualize, was it sort of just the image or did you feel like you were in there? Could you. Were there smells or sounds or.
- [13:38]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah, it was always that it was really manifesting. And then when the bad things would happen or you'd have the 20 setbacks or whatever, or everybody going, you know, this is never going to work. I always pictured, oh, you know what? This is just the part of the stuff story where at some point I'm gonna be sitting with the time. It was. I was always using Oprah. I'll be sitting with Oprah and I'm just gonna be telling her this. That didn't work out right now because that's just gonna be part of my success story. So I was just. I was almost like having to constantly read in my mind my own success story. So even when it didn't exist at that moment, but I was always, you know, doing that so that it would. It would keep me going on.
- [14:20]
Monica Lewinsky
I love that idea, actually, of writing your own success story.
- [14:25]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah.
- [14:25]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, I think one of the things that I found so interesting about you is at some point you started to go into women's prisons and also started doing work with women in. Right, with women in prisons around makeup.
- [14:43]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah.
- [14:43]
Monica Lewinsky
And that. This. I want to hear about that. And. But that it was also this kind of like, you. Part of that came from you feeling like an ambassador, a goodwill ambassador for women. So, I mean, talk to me about all that, like how that came in that Idea of goodwill ambassador for women and then going into the prisons.
- [15:03]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah, I always wanted to be able to give back. And at the time, you know, like where now I can do service and I can, you know, maybe write a check. At the time I couldn't write a check. I didn't have the money to write the check. So I wanted to just be of service. And I really, that's where I really created what I now call and think about as the power of mascara. You know, where I went into the jails. My sister was working for the sheriff's department. She was in charge of the psychology department and she ran that. And I was on the other end. I said, you know, I want to go into the jails and see if I can, you know, help the women that are there in this whole, look better, feel better. These would be women that would be getting out at some point. And she connected me and, you know, I started that program, which I did for 20 years, going to Civil Brand and then to downtown LA Twin Towers. And I'm really, really claustrophobic. So that was really hard. And I would work with 100 women at a time. It was really amazing to see. You know, we would say things like, okay, you're gonna be all dressed up and maybe nowhere to go today, but you will be when you get out. And it was really changing a philosophy where I remember saying when I first started, like, what do you like your makeup to say? And one of the gals was like, I like my makeup to say pull over. You know, great, okay, well, I don't know that that served well. So let's just like we're gonna change that up a little bit. And it was more like, how about like self respect? And it was so fascinating. Watch the energy of the room, how it would change over the two hours that I was there where some of the, what you would think would be the toughest looking gals with like the teardrops and the tattoos and all of that, at the end of the two hours they're like, does this look okay? Or, you know, it changed the energy in the room, you know, and do.
- [17:03]
Monica Lewinsky
You think it was that you were seeing them beyond the label of what they had of being in prison?
- [17:10]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah, I mean, you know, people would say to me while I was doing this, they'd go, well, aren't you afraid? Are there murderers in there? And I, early on in my mind, I don't care, like, I'm just not going to go there. I'm not going to start judging. I wasn't there to do that.
- [17:23]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, I know a lot of people who do good works.
- [17:28]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah.
- [17:28]
Monica Lewinsky
And I think what really surprised me about the work that you had done there was because you yourself had experienced something really traumatic and violent.
- [17:41]
Victoria Jackson
Yes.
- [17:41]
Monica Lewinsky
When you were a teenager. And I don't, you know, we don't have to go there if you want to talk about it at all.
- [17:47]
Victoria Jackson
So, I mean, it's always. I definitely was always. I think I was clearly born a worrier and born scared and always did have that sort of kind of foreboding, that feeling of somebody was going to get me and something bad was going to happen to me. And it did. When I was 17, I was a victim of the pillowcase rapist in California. God knows. 2. There's been two pillowcase rapists. I was a victim, unfortunately, of the pillowcase rapist. That was in the 70s. And it was really, you know, my whole family was home. It turned out I was the only victim. And because I'd always been so afraid of something happening, you know, I had an older brother at the time that would, you know, make jokes or try to scare me. And one night when I thought he was scaring me, it was somebody else scaring me. And it was the pillowcase rapist. And yeah, it was. It was brutal. It was bad. And I thought my whole family was killed and they were all asleep. So, yeah, you kind of never come back from something like that in terms of claustrophobia because of the positionings I was in. And a lot of. It's just part of that is just something that I live with. But again, I took that and I went into the jails, and part of me was like, what makes somebody, like, do what they did to me or what? Like, getting in the mind of that. And clearly I wasn't going to go into the men's prison, but how can I help people in some whatever way it was that giving them a sense of self or self respect through how they looked and hearing stories. Right, right. That's what really got me into. Into doing that.
- [19:39]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. It's interesting because I was thinking, really remembering, sort of hearing these parts of your story and learning them from you. And I found myself when I was thinking about the women's prison part, I realized that I actually have this belief that most of the women who are in prison shouldn't be there. And so it was just a very interesting thing to me to sort of realize because I was just thinking about, you know, how was it scary for you, you know, and. And did it. Did it feel like self imposed exposure therapy or were you not, it sounds like not worried about the potential violence. I just.
- [20:18]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah, no, it was. I mean, there were times where, certainly where I started out in the first year or two doing it. By the time I was in year 20, you know, I'd kind of encountered a lot of different situations or where you would be in there and there'd be a lot of attitude or, you know, energy that wasn't exactly as welcoming. But then you'd have. Because people knew that I would come once a month. You'd have people go, hey man, like she's just here to help, you know, so. And then I started getting a level of I could tell self respect from, you know, people that they could see I was there really not to sell my cosmetics or do anything, you know, but just. And then a few times I would have a T, a local TV station go with me in there or the LA Times just to see how it was really making a difference for people in their lives once they did get out.
- [21:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Did you share your teenage experiences, your trauma with them?
- [21:20]
Victoria Jackson
No, I didn't. I really didn't. You know, the thing is I didn't want to make it about me. You know, I really wanted it to be all about them, about hearing other people's stories, helping them. That's really the whole reason that I was there. And you really do get a sense of, you know, back to what you were saying about some people. Do you feel like they should be in there? I mean, clearly I'm not the judge or the jury and didn't know all the sides of people's stories. But there were some times where you felt like, huh, it makes me sad this person's here because it doesn't feel like maybe they should be here or women that were in there about to give birth. And you know, you picture a lot of the stories of what people are gonna go through and what they are going through. But I wanted to at least hopefully give what I could give was in something that when they were able to get out that maybe they would benefit from.
- [22:17]
Monica Lewinsky
Did you ever connect with any of the other victims from the pillowcase rapists ever?
- [22:24]
Victoria Jackson
No, I really didn't. No, I just was navigating my own kind of program of how I needed to get through it for myself through therapy. And maybe there was some point of this, you know, exposure therapy, going to the jails. I mean, I just kind of worked my own process and I moved out. Obviously I didn't go back in my room. I was 17. I didn't graduate high school. I didn't go to college. So it definitely changed the trajectory of my life. But looking at it now, it all worked out okay in terms of not having that college degree. It was just another. Another way that my life unfolded. Yeah. Yeah.
- [23:07]
Monica Lewinsky
I. I think about that a lot from my own experiences of, you know, just the. I never know the right way to say it, that it doesn't, you know, land in the wrong way. But this idea of, okay, was my karma just so complicated that I had to go through this other big thing in. In order to be. Place me here and place me there to have this role and that sense of, like, oh, okay, next time, let's do it easier, right? Or, yeah, because I. I wouldn't be sitting here having a podcast, having a conversation with you if what had happened in 98 hadn't happened.
- [23:44]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah.
- [23:45]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, so it is. It's never. I mean, I never. And I'm sure you neither. I never look at it as a silver lining or anything like that, but it is. I think when we get through these and everybody has their own version of it, but when we get through these really intense, traumatic moments and we're farther down the road, you look back and you go, the only way I could have gotten here in this lifetime. Right. Like, this way was. Was this.
- [24:11]
Victoria Jackson
And it's hard because at times, you know, we think about like, oh, my gosh, so, oh, the universe is bringing this right now. Interesting. You know, like, just dealing with it. And it does. Yeah. There is definitely what, you know, what doesn't kill you makes you strong. I know a lot of things where I thought, oh, I just do not know how, you know, to navigate this, obviously, when we talk about my daughter's diagnosis, but there's been so many things that I've just said, okay, you know what? And I draw back from experience of, like, okay, well, you got through that. And you remember when you did this, so you're gonna navigate this one. And you are that warrior or whatever self talk. It doesn't mean that we still don't, like, get at least me, like, curl up in a ball on the bathroom floor. And then. Yeah. And then you just. It's just that we get up. There's a lot of people, and that's the part you want to just help people to get up. Because a lot of people curl up in that ball and they can't get up. And I want people to go, look, I got up a lot of times, and it's hard, but you Know, what's the alternative, really?
- [25:15]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, I think the most. It's, it's interesting. And this is why I think work with young people is so important. And I actually was thinking that I think you should do some sort of a children's book and maybe a tya version of We All Worry Now. What? No, really, Because I think that almost the most important thing is the first time. The first time you get yourself back up, when you just think, I can't, there's no way, like, how can I wake up, face the world, whatever, all the things. Because then the next time it happens, somewhere in there you have, oh, I've been here before. I got up before, it got better. Now it's fucked up again.
- [26:01]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah.
- [26:01]
Monica Lewinsky
And I feel this way, but I had that cycle once and I think the more you have that cycle, the easier. It's sort of not easier, but I think it's like the refraction period is smaller. Like you get up faster maybe.
- [26:16]
Victoria Jackson
Absolutely. I mean, I used to when I was talking about going to the jails, but at the same time I was doing Children of the Night, which is still an organization. I think it's still in the post office in van Nuys. It's Dr. Lois Lee. She used to do rescue kids off the street from prostitution. So I would go in there and work with like getting like the war paint off these like 12 and 13 year old girls that, you know, I'd see cigarette burns on their arms from. I mean, just the stuff that went on and trying to help empower them. And same thing with McLaren Hall. I went there, you know, abused kids. So working with young people especially, you really want to. It's always just anything that you can do to help people through sharing your own experience or just showing them your heart and being authentic, not lecturing or talking down, but sort of like being right there in it with them.
- [27:15]
Monica Lewinsky
And you are. I've learned these different parts of you over time, you know, and so to sit here and see the totality and now to think, oh my gosh, that wasn't even just it, because then you had with Allie, your daughter, when she.
- [27:31]
Victoria Jackson
Was 13, and that was really. I mean, that was gonna be like, now think about having to draw from everything in my life. Was now Allie being dosed and giving possibly four to six years to live from having, you know, okay, so she.
- [27:45]
Monica Lewinsky
Was diagnosed with NMO myelitis optica.
- [27:49]
Victoria Jackson
Now that even getting to that diagnosis was. It started with an eyeball headache and she was losing some vision and color. And I Just thought, oh, she has an eye infection. You know, go to the eye doctor and get some drops. And the one doctor after we went to the eye doctor, who then said, you need to see a neuro ophthalmologist. And then, you know, going to a neurologist and, you know, all of a sudden you find yourselves going down this path of like, what's going on here? You know? And he was checking boxes as he was taking blood, and he checked one called neuromyelitis optica. And I said, oh, what's that? And he goes, I don't even know why I've checked that box. You know, that would be a nightmare. And I remember him saying that and then finding out that the results came back and, you know, that that's what she had. And, you know, basically told me, you know, there was little known. So the information at the time, right.
- [28:43]
Monica Lewinsky
Because it's a rare. Is it still considered a rare disease?
- [28:45]
Victoria Jackson
I don't think it's as rare now.
- [28:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [28:48]
Victoria Jackson
Because of the work I've been doing for the last, you know, almost 17 years, you know, that it was so misdiagnosed as, and still is as ms, and it was known as Devik's disease, something different. So working with the Mayo Clinic, they came up with an assay that is a blood test to tell you if you have it. But there was a lot of misdiagnosis, misinformation. It was a very scary thing. And so obviously, I transitioned, like, overnight. It wasn't even a transition. It was like closing the book on, as I say, makeup and mascara and opening the book of medicine. And I thought, great, okay, well, I've been making lip gloss. Sure, I can cure an autoimmune disease. Right? And I thought, I'm going to figure this out. I'm going to work with some of the best minds. I'm going to find the best minds. And I went to Stanford, met with a group of advisors there and just basically were telling them my story. I was really trying to figure out having to find a cure and people that would get on board with me. And I said, I have a checkbook. I worked with the Mayo Clinic. I said, but everybody is going to have to collaborate and work together. We're going to change the way. Because everybody was telling me, in medicine, people don't share information. They very siloed. It's very siloed. And I said, I'm not spending my money for siloed. And I've literally been working at what I call the speed of life. Since I started, and I knew that losing my daughter was not an option. I was now out of the world of makeup. Although the crazy thing is, and I don't even know if I'm sure I probably told you this, but realizing that when you're doing research to actually find a cure for a disease, you need to have the blood and specimens. Right. And so I had to build my own biorepository, my own biobank. Oh, wow. And which I still have now.
- [30:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my gosh.
- [30:48]
Victoria Jackson
So, wait, what is that?
- [30:48]
Monica Lewinsky
What does that mean? What does that entail?
- [30:50]
Victoria Jackson
What it means is, basically, you need to have. If you're going to do research on any kind of condition, you're going to need, like, blood samples. You need blood from patients. You need to be able to have material to work with. Right. Well, that didn't exist in this. So basically, I remember when I first started, when I first learned this from some of the institutions, they're like, well, we'll do research, but we need saliva, we need blood. And I was like, oh, great. So now I have to figure out how to build a blood bank and a biorepository. So I hired a nurse who literally, Martha would go with a cooler, and we would find wherever the rare patients were at the time that we would find, and she would go there. And I remember trying to attract. You know, since mostly autoimmune disease is women, I'd say, I'll give you a blush for your blood. So crazy.
- [31:46]
Monica Lewinsky
I didn't know that about most autoimmune diseases were women. Yeah, I didn't know that.
- [31:51]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah. Seven out of ten, Victoria, where did you.
- [31:54]
Monica Lewinsky
Like, I'm listening to this. Where did you find the strength to not give up? Like, I mean, to find the strength to go, you know, start to do a thing that you've never done before and building this.
- [32:12]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah, it's called looking in the face of my daughter and watching what she was going through, which is her story to tell. But that's what kept me going. It was like, it was really that simple. There was never an option, even to this day, to have it be any other way. You know, as a mom, looking in your child's face and seeing what she was dealing with and the challenges she was having, it just wasn't an option. So I was motivated beyond. And then I realized that I needed. So as I started to grow my group of researchers and scientists, right, by just basically being, hey, you guys, you tell me what you need and I will go and get it. Let's build this family together. So if you need a certain kind of researcher, or you tell me what you need, and I will find it. And I started building this group because I really needed their brain trust. Right. The only way I could find that was, in my opinion, was through a shared, real, true sense of humanity. Like, there was a reason these people get into it. There was a reason that the pharmaceutical company I still had to find they weren't just going to be in my mind if I just made them out to be big pharma. Right, Right. That only wanted money. I wasn't going to be able to, you know, appeal to them or get them encouraged to be part of the foundation unless I really realized they're also human beings. Right. But I also had to understand what are their needs. They need to see how they can make money. Okay. And I need you pharmaceutical companies to see all these patients that you're helping. So I really built a bridge between all the pharmaceutical companies and patients and brought together every year these researchers and scientists from over 40 countries worldwide, patients, clinicians, and then we really had. Patient day was its own day.
- [34:07]
Monica Lewinsky
Tell me when. Just. I want to go back for a second because I don't think I ever had this. This fully in my mind. Ally's 13.
- [34:16]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah.
- [34:17]
Monica Lewinsky
And they. The diagnosis, they said her prognosis was.
- [34:21]
Victoria Jackson
Potentially four to six years. You know, I mean, because they didn't have a lot of information. I mean, this is going back where you would Google it. And, you know, they're really, you know, it was. It was a bad situation, you know, so they didn't know for sure that that would happen. But, you know, I heard from some doctors, like, well, if I were you, I would just, you know, just enjoy the time. And, you know, and you're like, no. I mean, and then they would tell you that within a matter of months, she'll probably, you know, be blind, she'll be paralyzed.
- [34:53]
Monica Lewinsky
And, you know, and now it's decades later.
- [34:55]
Victoria Jackson
And now it's decades later. I've gotten three drugs made different therapies. So many of the people worldwide, these are drugs that are now not just even used in nmo, but in other conditions. So, you know, I learned so much along the way that, you know, if I were sitting here, like, I would be talking, I could be talking about small molecule screening and, you know, thank you. Come on. What we're talking. Just talk about.
- [35:21]
Monica Lewinsky
I mean, I am the daughter of a doctor, but.
- [35:24]
Victoria Jackson
But, I mean, it was that kind of thing. I mean, I had to really go deep and really Understand it. So I could decide what to fund, what not to fund, because God bless scientists, but, you know, they could research the, you know, the head of a pin. You know, you have to think of. Everything was for me had to be translational in terms of bench to bedside. Like, what was on critical path that I knew eventually, okay, my daughter can take this IV or this pill or whatever it's going to be, and all these people that are going to make a difference. And at some point, Allie was very clear and said, you know, mom, this isn't just about us anymore. It really became about all those faces that you saw at the, you know, symposium patient day, that you see the families, you see the little kids. Because these kinds of things can hit the littlest kids and older people. There's no real necessarily rhyme or reason for autoimmune disease.
- [36:19]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, now I just remembered something I forgot from your list of accomplishments. The X prize that you've won twice, right?
- [36:25]
Victoria Jackson
You won the X prize twice. Yep. So where you have about two minutes to, you know, make your pitch. It's a little bit nutty because what.
- [36:35]
Monica Lewinsky
Your pitch was was around autoimmune.
- [36:37]
Victoria Jackson
Autoimmune disease. Working to cure autoimmune disease in the world and understand it. And if somebody would have told me honestly that at some point I would be at the Vatican with, you know, in the Vatican, it was crazy. They're playing my infomercial.
- [36:53]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my gosh, really?
- [36:55]
Victoria Jackson
In the Vatican? Yeah, in the Vatican. Oh, my God. And I was just remembering, just having this literally surreal moment of the video playing. And Tony Robbins, who I knew from the way I met my husband was Tony, and I were keynote speakers at a very early infomercial sort of convention thing. And there's Tony back at the Vatican talking about feeding billions of people. And I'm about to receive this award from the Pope for my work around the world in advocacy for autoimmune disease. And I just remember thinking, God, if somebody would have told me, you know, from beauty school, little Vicki from now the Vatican with my infomercial plan to this, you know, beautiful acknowledgment that they gave me at the time. It's really been just an extraordinary journey. But I'm not done. Because to me, done will be not just therapies. It'll be like cures. It'll be like what I'm calling, you know, in the Biden world, there was moonshots for cancer. I'm like, I've trademarked. I trademark everything, right? Smartly cure shots. Oh, that's great because I think we'd have to go to the moon to find cures here because I realized through doing all this work, just connecting people, when you get people together, everyone was like, you're never going to be able to get a drug made that takes 50 years. And there's this whole thing called the Valley of Death, where most drugs don't make it across the Valley of Death to actually become therapies. And I was like, well, that's foreboding, but I'm going to. I'm going to get these. These drugs made. And a lot of heroes from the. The world of NMO that, you know, were willing to test it and be part of these clinical trials and things like that. But when people work together, it's really pretty extraordinary. You can get a lot of shit done.
- [38:49]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, you know, gonna send you to Washington, girl. Yeah, let's go. Let fix Congress. I think it's important to note that Ali is thriving. And so as an extraordinary young woman.
- [39:04]
Victoria Jackson
So positive, I've learned so much from her that I think so much of her doing as well as she's doing. And I really try to convey that as well. On our patient days, her positive attitude, she was. Early on, she said, mom, I know you. You're going to figure this out. And I. I'm gonna live my life. I think when she heard that, she didn't know at the time when they, you know, to have your child here, that they don't know what kind of time could look like or how it could manifest that kind of condition. She just lives life. I mean.
- [39:37]
Monica Lewinsky
I mean, she inspires me because I think I have a tendency, even having read your book still, to worry a lot and to feel kind of like I'm making up for lost time and I need to work hard. And not that she doesn't work hard, but Allie, really, she finds joy in the moment, and she really lives life. And I need that reminder so much because it's not only just those reminders to be grateful, but it's really, you know, I find I kind of only do it at Disneyland, this sort of abandonment of all the other stuff, and just really be in that moment of joy. But Ali does that all the time. And it's extraordinary to. To think that she and you both have lived with this in different ways, as does Bill, your husband, and the rest of your family, too. But there is that. It's such a reminder about choosing. About choosing how you deal with what's handed to you.
- [40:41]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah, exactly. I mean, she really does she makes that choice. And even writing the book, it's like, trust me, I have to read my own book all the time and worry.
- [40:52]
Monica Lewinsky
It's not like, let's talk about it a little. I mean, and then I want to get too back into, like, it's amazing that you. And sort of reclaim. No makeup. Makeup and come all the way back full circle. But let's talk about the book a little.
- [41:04]
Victoria Jackson
I wanted to write down as I In the book prior to this one, I wrote a book called the Power of Rare. Ali and I first. I should back up a little, say that while Allie and I were going through this, we each wrote Saving each Other, which we wrote separately. So Allie never liked to. As part of her dealing with it, she wrote separately how she was navigating, and I wrote my pieces. So until the book was done and our pages were put together, I never really knew how Allie was dealing with things. So it's really a really. I call it like my momoir. It's a really powerful story. And hearing from Ali and from me, and then again, it was sort of like I did with the makeup. It was sort of like, okay, here's the story now. The Power of Rare, the book that I wrote after was really the how to, right? So that was more people wanting to know other foundations wanting to know, how did you actually get drugs made? What was your way? And so I really wrote what I called my roadmap and blueprint toward cures, how I've so far been able to get these drugs made. So after that, I wanted people, this last book now is we all worry now, what has all been like, how did I do all of that while I've still really had anxiety, crippling anxiety, where it kept me from doing a lot of earlier things earlier in my life to dealing with depression, the sadness, all of that. And writing this is at least. This is what I do, and I still have to do that. And I write that in the book. It's not like, oh, I'm writing this and I'm cured now. And it's no, I have to sort of do the things I talk about, like zooming out and trying to see above what's happening to me and look down and try to set an intention and have that picture of how I want this. You know, I always envisioned, oh, Allie's going to be on a drug or a therapy or there was always going to be a picture I formed in my mind of how I want it to look. And so I still have to go through all of these steps that I write about in the book, like building my tribe, my friends, when I need to, you know, call you, Monica, or call my friends and go, oh, I'm struggling, or. Or help you with whatever you're going through, or any of my pals. So it's a daily. It's a job. You know, I work it.
- [43:21]
Monica Lewinsky
I think the ways that society often serves things to us as a complete process. And it's sort of, oh, this is the success story, rather than the kind of spiral of. That you constantly go through those things of, okay, once you've had this success, well, you may fail at doing this again, and then you're going to have another success. And I mean this in terms of the worrying.
- [43:50]
Victoria Jackson
Right.
- [43:50]
Monica Lewinsky
It's interesting because I'm hearing you, you know, like, and we've talked about the. And I've read the book, so the zooming out. And it's interesting because it almost feels like the positive side of the coin of dissociating, you know, And I know from my younger things about dissociating. And so I'm just curious if that feels yoked for you.
- [44:13]
Victoria Jackson
That is so right on. And yes, you just. That's exactly right because there's the, you know, when bad things were happening to me, disassociating. And so I probably have really perfected that, being able to disassociate. Right. We. Both of us. So. But then there's the positive side of it where you can disassociate in a positive way, where I have the ability to zoom out and look at it. But, yeah, that was a big thing where you turning that disassociation into something that can be. It's a good skill and at times not a good thing. So it cuts both ways. But it really has been something that has also allowed me to move through things and sometimes not move through it and be stuck.
- [45:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Now I know that you were writing the book at the same time that you were stepping back into makeup moguldom.
- [45:13]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah. So how.
- [45:16]
Monica Lewinsky
What drew you to wanting to kind of bring no makeup makeup back?
- [45:21]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah. Well, definitely full circle. So, I mean, you know, I always wanted to. Even when I was doing makeup, my whole thing was no makeup makeup. I was talking about that in the 80s, and I trademarked it. By early 2000s, it was fully trademarked. And, you know, that's been my thing. That's how I created my makeup. So when Allie was diagnosed, before that, I was really in my career. I was selling my, As I said, 13 years of infomercials Victoria Jackson Cosmetics, doing my no makeup makeup. When she was diagnosed, it was really abrupt. It was, like I said, like the next day it was. Was closed. That book, that chapter's over. And I started what's really been the last 17 years, my new life. But I really have missed, you know, I've been in. And it's been interesting. I went from foundation, one kind of foundation to another kind of foundation. Right. And I was also back in labs. You know, I was in my makeup year in labs. Now I'm in medical labs. You know, I was like, lab to lab. By the way, I saw a lot of women in the labs, and I still always want to. To go, have you thought about this for your eyes? You know, and they're like, we're trying to cure a disease here. You're talking to me about my blush again. But it was always there, you know, I thought, well, if it's 17 years later, I'm not going to come back until I've made a foundation again that I think rivals what I had before, but even better, because now there's clean beauty and new technologies and all that. And so kind of off to the side, I've been working on making, you know, a foundation, another base that I thought would be incredible. And I made. This one is made in Italy. And honestly, it's the best product I've ever made. I love it. I've made 600 products. This is like the best product. And so I said, if I can come up with a great product, all shades, I'm going to basically come out with it again. And I'd been also, during my infomercial days, I went on QVC. So I did 10 years of QVC back in the day, and now I'm like, back on QVC, which was crazy. Like, seeing myself 30 years later back on QVC. You know, my old pictures of me, like, in a mini skirt on QVC. Now I'm like, me, you know, almost turning 70, you know, here on QVC. But I love it, and people love the product.
- [47:39]
Monica Lewinsky
What have you seen? You know, you've had such an interesting landscape of women in business, too. So, I mean, what have you seen in terms of how the makeup industry has changed or how you've seen women in business change over the 30 years?
- [47:55]
Victoria Jackson
I'm seeing a lot more women in business than when I started. I started. And I remember being in ypo, like, Young President's Organization, and there was, like, two women in there, you know, I was one of them. I mean, so there's a lot more women, which is great. I feel like there's a lot more women that are. Seem much more comfortable in themselves not having to exist in a man's world, but existing in their world and being a woman. And so I love it. I mean, I think just the fact that I'm seeing more women and more comfortable. I'm not saying we don't have a long way to go, but we've sure come a long way for sure.
- [48:31]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, or even just the producers and I were talking yesterday just in about this and this conversation and even this idea of that when you started, it was so. It was just more unheard of for a woman to be able to kind of be loud and proud about her accomplishments too. And that's changed a bit. And so how you would have even kind of remolded.
- [48:59]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah.
- [48:59]
Monica Lewinsky
How you think about yourself, how you talk about yourself, see yourself.
- [49:03]
Victoria Jackson
That.
- [49:03]
Monica Lewinsky
That's all really interesting.
- [49:04]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah. And I mean, trajectory, especially when your worst fears are realized. As I said early on, where. And I mean that in a lot of ways. Freed me, though. I just put it out there. I just go for it. And people are gonna say what they say and it's, you know, now, like, I don't. Because I didn't grow up with Instagram and all these I don't read comments. I don't.
- [49:27]
Monica Lewinsky
Smart girl.
- [49:28]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah, I don't. Because I think it just gets in your head, all of that, you know, like, so I try to take away a lot of the other outside noise. And that does free me up to sort of just go and do it. Cause people go, how do you just do it? And I go, I think it's because I've got so much else going on that I'm just talking to myself. That once I get my own kind of rhythm down, then I just go.
- [49:53]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, it's still really impressive because I can have the vision of something and. And I don't go, well, and by.
- [50:00]
Victoria Jackson
The way, I would take issue with that too, because you are sitting here right now. You have gone and you're doing this. Which was probably not the easiest thing to do.
- [50:10]
Monica Lewinsky
No.
- [50:10]
Victoria Jackson
Right.
- [50:11]
Monica Lewinsky
And I am doing. I just feel like I could do more.
- [50:15]
Victoria Jackson
So it's. We all can do more. But, you know, I always like to say to people, including anybody, like sitting across from you, you're here, you're doing it. You know, I'm sure there was a definitely. I know there was big moments of going, like, I don't know, and you push through, you're here. You're doing it. You're doing amazing. So thank you. I'm proud of you.
- [50:36]
Monica Lewinsky
Thanks. There's just such a great quote from your book that it's if fear is the seed that gives rise to worry, rumination is the water that makes it grow.
- [50:47]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah, it's true. Because don't we all just ruminate? You know, we just go. And it keeps you in that. That circle. And I was thinking about that, and I spoke with Jay Shetty, you know, who was really lovely, and I remember him saying, like, you gotta think about, are you watering the seeds or the weeds? You know, and rumination is like watering, you know, those weeds. Like, it just goes round and round. And so I do think about that a lot. Am I watering seeds or weeds during the day when that anxiety starts coming up, or you ruminate and you start all the what ifs and you go, you know, circular around things. So it's kind of how to break that loop, the rumination, that loop where it just keeps us from just ruminating and thinking and building the whole argument as to why something isn't going to work as opposed to just trying to do something different. Yeah. And I can get into that loop too, and I have to work hard to break it. Like, what am I watering here? Yeah.
- [51:48]
Monica Lewinsky
I try to make all these. Like, I actually did it recently with my. My ring. I try to find different ways to remind myself. Like, my mantra is relaxed, centered and expansive. And so I had that engraved inside my ring, which. I've had the ring for a few years, and I just thought, okay, what's. What's a physical way I can remind myself.
- [52:11]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah.
- [52:11]
Monica Lewinsky
So trying to do those things. Does that ever.
- [52:13]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I. I've never had tattoos, and I put a little tattoo after Allie would diagnosed on my back saying against all odds, you know, like, little. That was my little thing. Like against all odds.
- [52:25]
Monica Lewinsky
It's just like a declaration to the universe, Right?
- [52:27]
Victoria Jackson
Yeah. I mean, I think whatever that is for somebody, whether that's putting a, like, you know, we love crystals, a crystal in your bag, or tattooing, that little saying or whatever it is that. Yeah, I think all of really matters, you know, to take the time to think and develop, like, that recipe for yourself, what works for you that helps you to, you know, to be that best version of yourself. I always hear from people at patient day going, oh, Victoria, I'm not like you. You have a big voice in la and I'm just a small voice in Tennessee or wherever it is. And I'm like, no, you're not. You know, like, I work to help bring that out in them. That's the whole. The whole point is, you know, don't have to be that small voice. We all have voice. Yeah.
- [53:16]
Monica Lewinsky
No, it's so true. The last question I'm going to ask you is what is something that you are working on reclaiming right now? And it could be a place or a thing or part of your identity, anything.
- [53:33]
Victoria Jackson
So I'm working on reclaiming something that I haven't had. Okay. Joy. So I am working to claim that because I haven't had a lot of joy. You know, I've been such a. Solving problems or working through a lot of things. I really just want to sort of. As I'm turning 70 is a big milestone for me. It's really to sort of let myself have some joy, do some different things. You know, travel where travel's been a very big anxiety for me. Right.
- [54:04]
Monica Lewinsky
That's something I've watched you. I've watched you work through every time we fly together.
- [54:09]
Victoria Jackson
Yep. Getting on a plane. So I'd say really trying to claim some joy for myself. And, you know, there's wonderful reclaiming in getting back into the cosmetic world right now. I mean, that's. To be able to reclaim a moment in time that, you know, was a long time ago and to be able to bring that back in sort of the full circle kind of magic moment I'm in with all of that is pretty extraordinary. Yeah.
- [54:36]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, it kills two birds with one stone. Brings you joy.
- [54:39]
Victoria Jackson
Right.
- [54:40]
Monica Lewinsky
It's a lot of work, but also brings joy.
- [54:41]
Victoria Jackson
Yes. As did this today. Oh, thank you.
- [54:44]
Monica Lewinsky
Thanks for doing this. This was so lovely.
- [54:47]
Victoria Jackson
Thank you. Really fun.
- [54:49]
Monica Lewinsky
Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candice Manriquez Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.