American Hate Story

Summary

Podcast Summary: Red Scare - "American Hate Story"

Release Date: June 27, 2025

Hosts: Anna Khachiyan and Dasha Nekrasova

Episode Title: American Hate Story

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Introduction to Carolyn Bessette Kennedy’s Enduring Legacy

The episode opens with the hosts delving into the resurgence of interest in Carolyn Bessette Kennedy (CBK), comparing the current fan frenzy to historical admiration for style icons. Dasha Nekrasova highlights the intense online activity surrounding CBK, noting, “The Internet is ablaze with… Carolyn Bessette Kennedy fan accounts I follow, [00:52].” Anna Khachiyan and Jackie engage in a playful debate about CBK’s enduring elegance, with Jackie humorously describing her as “such a crazy, a shallow cunt” who nevertheless maintained an impeccable and timeless style ([01:17]).

CBK’s Style: Authenticity vs. Celebrity Styling

The discussion transitions to CBK’s unique approach to fashion, emphasizing her preference for rewearing pieces, which they argue conveyed authenticity. Dasha observes, “She was re wearing things because you got the sense that she was like wearing clothes that were like her to her and authentic” ([03:35]). Jackie contrasts this with contemporary celebrities like Sabrina Carpenter and Florence Pugh, criticizing the inconsistency and lack of personal aesthetic in modern celebrity styling ([04:08]).

Anna underscores the timelessness of CBK’s style, comparing her minimalistic and classy appeal to the more transient styles of other fashion icons like Kate Moss and Sienna Miller: “Carolyn Bessette Kennedy's style is sort of like evergreen” ([05:19]). Dasha adds that CBK’s approach contrasts sharply with brands like The Row, which she finds expensive and impractical, further highlighting CBK’s distinct and enduring fashion sense ([06:12]).

Celebrity Influence and Authentic Style

The hosts discuss the broader implications of celebrity influence on personal style, lamenting the loss of individuality in favor of transient fashion trends. Anna laments, “Most women when they try to do that look like they work at MOMA, PS1” ([11:05]), emphasizing how CBK’s style allowed her to appear both sexy and sophisticated without appearing overly curated or like part of an art installation.

Dasha reminisces about her own struggles with maintaining personal style, finding solace in CBK’s example: “Carolyn Bessette Kennedy makes me feel better about myself because lately, every time I go out, my summer uniform really amounts to wearing literally the same outfit every day” ([07:33]). This leads to a broader conversation about the influence of aesthetic icons on individual self-expression and confidence.

Critique of "American Love Story" and Styling Issues

A significant portion of the episode critiques the styling in Ryan Murphy’s "American Love Story," specifically how CBK is portrayed. The hosts express disappointment with the costuming choices, arguing that the outfits used in the show fail to capture CBK’s iconic look. Dasha remarks, “That’s really what I love about her because she was clearly such a crazy, a shallow cunt. But she looked amazing and classy” ([01:17]). They criticize specific costume choices, such as the depiction of CBK wearing Converse shoes, which they assert would never align with her real-life style ([13:30]).

Anna and Jackie highlight the lack of consistency and depth in the show’s styling department, concluding that the portrayal of CBK feels inauthentic and a disservice to her legacy: “It's such a lie because the guy who plays JFK Jr doesn't look too great or convincing” ([13:55]).

Exploration of Paul Reubens (Pee Wee Herman) Documentary

Shifting focus, the hosts delve into their views on the Paul Reubens documentary, "American Hate Story." They critically assess how the documentary handles Reubens’ persona, sexuality, and scandals. Dasha comments on the problematic portrayal of Reubens’ closeted sexuality, stating, “He was a closeted, essentially, though not very well” ([51:20]). Anna criticizes the documentary for attempting to sanitize Reubens’ complex personality, noting, “The documentary… grappled with certain supposedly like controversial or problematic elements of his personal life” ([44:14]).

They debate the accuracy and fairness of the documentary’s narrative, with Anna expressing skepticism about Reubens’ stated reasons for maintaining his closeted status: “He made that decision not because he was in conflict about his sexuality. He wasn't” ([53:02]). Dasha and Anna discuss how the documentary fails to capture Reubens’ true essence, describing it as “somewhat boring and uneventful” and lacking in genuine conflict or suspense ([60:00]).

Astrological Insights and Personality Analysis

Throughout their conversation, the hosts intermittently reference astrological signs to analyze personalities. They categorize Paul Reubens as a Virgo, attributing his controlling and exacting nature to his astrological profile: “He's a person who's, like, unmanageable, unknowable, inaccessible… a very Romantic and sensitive side, AKA narcissistic” ([75:03]). This leads to a broader discussion on how astrological traits may influence personal and professional behaviors, though they acknowledge the speculative nature of such analyses.

Geopolitical Tangents: Iran and US Relations

Towards the latter part of the episode, the conversation veers into a brief and unstructured discussion about geopolitical tensions between the US and Iran. The hosts express apprehension about potential wars, with Dasha lamenting, “I have really unpleasant memories of it” ([29:53]), while Anna shares her perspective on the futility and dangers of war: “It's an invitation to have a prolonged retaliation” ([88:09]). However, this segment appears more as an impromptu exchange rather than a structured analysis, concluding the episode on a note disconnected from the primary themes.

Conclusion: Reflections on Style, Authenticity, and Media Representation

In wrapping up, the hosts reflect on the overarching themes of style authenticity, the pitfalls of celebrity influence, and the challenges of accurately representing complex personalities in media. They emphasize the importance of staying true to one's aesthetic and the enduring impact of genuine style icons like Carolyn Bessette Kennedy. The critiques of contemporary media portrayals serve as a reminder of the delicate balance between homage and authenticity in storytelling.

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Notable Quotes:

• Dasha Nekrasova ([00:52]): "The Internet is ablaze with… Carolyn Bessette Kennedy fan accounts I follow."

• Jackie ([01:17]): "She was a shallow cunt. But she looked amazing and classy."

• Anna Khachiyan ([05:19]): "Carolyn Bessette Kennedy's style is sort of like evergreen."

• Dasha Nekrasova ([07:33]): "Carolyn Bessette Kennedy makes me feel better about myself because lately, every time I go out, my summer uniform really amounts to wearing literally the same outfit every day."

• Anna Khachiyan ([13:55]): "It's such a lie because the guy who plays JFK Jr doesn't look too great or convincing."

• Dasha Nekrasova ([51:20]): "He was a closeted, essentially, though not very well."

• Anna Khachiyan ([75:03]): "He's a person who's, like, unmanageable, unknowable, inaccessible… a very Romantic and sensitive side, AKA narcissistic."

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This episode of Red Scare masterfully intertwines discussions on fashion authenticity, celebrity influence, and media representation, all while providing sharp critiques and insightful commentary. For fans of cultural analysis and provocative discussions, "American Hate Story" offers a compelling exploration of how style and persona are constructed and perceived in the modern age.

Transcript

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Hey, we're back.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Revac. A lot of big news this week.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Everyone's really upset about the Carolyn Bessette Kennedy style.

[Jackie]

I thought you were going to talk about.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Israel Iran.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I know. I was doing a fake. I did. I did a. I did a fake.

[Jackie]

That's my Israel Iran.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I'm like, the Internet is ablaze with. Although Carolyn Passette fans, fan accounts I follow.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Are going on about this non stop.

[Jackie]

I love when something happens and they start beaming Carolyn Bessette Kennedy pics onto the timeline. It's a real, like, timeline cleanser.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

I'm just like, oh, she's like, so chic and elegant.

[Anna Khachiyan]

That's really what I love about her because she was clearly such a crazy.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yep.

[Jackie]

A shallow cunt. But she looked amazing and classy.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

We discussed this. We. And we know she was shrieking when that. When that plane was crashing. You know, she was badgering.

[Jackie]

Yeah. She was nagging and scolding him. She made him crash the plane.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I hope to see that dramatized in the Ryan Murphy American Love Story. Story, it's called. Yeah. I mean, it is shocking. The. The styling. Because that's literally the whole reason. The whole reason she's relevant is that she had good style. The people who styled her and who she was friends with and who knew her and who gave her highlights, like, are alive.

[Jackie]

Yeah. They're here to tell their story.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

There's also countless people who've, like, all for Carolyn at allfor Carolyn on Instagram, you know, who are meticulously kind of cataloging her. Not just her what she wore, but, like, why it was so good and what was so unique about her and her riz and aura.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

What was so unique about her? Because there have been a lot of, like, stylish women throughout history, especially in contemporary times, like Kate Moss, Sienna Miller.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Kate Bosworth, like, these little starlets of the odds.

[Jackie]

Alexa Chung, whose style I personally don't really vibe with. It's a little too, like, twee and indie.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I mean, all those women are fantastic, but they're not like 10 out of 10. Like, in terms of drive, you know, they're not always knocking it out of the park.

[Anna Khachiyan]

That's true.

[Jackie]

And also they have a very, like, grunge and boho aesthetic. Whereas Carolyn Bassett Kennedy had like, the kind of ultimate classy, minimalist appeal and the Yamamoto.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And something all for Carolyn wrote about was that she wore rewore pieces. So you really, when you saw her.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

In the paparazzi pics or in the media, like, she was re wearing things because you got the sense that she was like wearing clothes that were like.

[Jackie]

Her to her and authentic.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

And I think now the toxic dynamic of celebrity styling. Well, first of all, they all have stylists. They can't dress themselves. It's like, you know, you think of like the two biggest fashion victims, Sabrina Carpenter and what's her name from Midsommar, Florence Pugh.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Oh yeah.

[Jackie]

And it's like those girls like just like clearly have no sense of their body type, their like skin tone, their personal aesthetic. But I think the biggest crime yet is that you're styled anew every single time and you wear like a novel piece that you're never going to wear again, which is like the antithesis. Antithesis of personal style or like different.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. She was also very consistent in her silhouettes.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And knew what worked for her and had an amazing. And being a Kennedys partner, of course, is always a very like iconic kind of position to be in which lends to her allure.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Right.

[Jackie]

Like the other big stylish woman that I can think of that she clearly modeled herself after to some extent. Much like Meghan Markle and Kate Middleton model themselves after Princess Di is Jackie.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Oh.

[Jackie]

And of course Jackie O was a very like, she was a style icon. But I think like her style looks too dated.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

To contemporary people today it's too like 50s and 60s.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Whereas like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But when she wore like the red scarf and Mykonos, that also was like, people were like, wow.

[Jackie]

But Carolyn Bassett Kennedy's style is sort of like evergreen.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. Well now also there's a kind of revival nostalgia for a Y2K.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

And I was thinking of Office Siren.

[Anna Khachiyan]

The other.

[Jackie]

Like most stylish women I can think of are Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen. The Olsen twins. But they too were very like boho and grunge at their peak. Like I remember Mary Kate doing like the long plaid shirt with like the Givenchy like biker heel thing.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

And I guess Ashley was always the more like classic and sedate one, but still had her like moments. And I was thinking about how like Carolyn Bassette Kennedy is the template for the Row. Because the Row doesn't really reflect Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen's like peak personal style.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right. I mean, I honestly don't own a. I have a pair of heels from the Row.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But I don't own anything cuz it's.

[Jackie]

So expensive and it actually doesn't work. The Row is actually weirdly very similar to Balenciaga in the sense that it's so expensive and the fits are actually so off. But it gives you like inspiration for duping. I. I randomly own a lot of row shoes and like my favorite pair of like square toe classic ankle boots are the row. I've worn them for like six years now. But other than that, it just keeps selling that crap on the real real because it just doesn't work every time. I'm like, disappointed.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I can't even justify really the price point for what. Because I want to look. If I'm gonna spend a lot of money, I want to look sexy.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I'm not.

[Jackie]

You don't want to look like dowdy or frumpy.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

Like an art teacher at like an elite college or something.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. It's a little like modest for what I'm willing to drop money on because it's asexual, affordable and like you can buy like Japanese stuff on ebay or.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Like just go to coast cos whatever.

[Jackie]

It'S called and like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right.

[Jackie]

But yeah, Carolyn Bessette Kennedy makes me feel better about myself because lately every time I go out, like you asked me on the last one whether I had my summer uniform planned and I just like my summer uniform really amounts to wearing literally the same outfit every day but with a different bag and belt. And so people make fun of me for doing that because they're kind of creeped out. It's like Doug funny where you like open his closet, same thing. What they don't realize is that I have like 10 of the same shirt from Zara. So I'm not like wearing the actual same item over and over. Just like a, A shrunken black boy tee that elongates the waist and makes you look really skinny.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

But like makes the tits look nice and like a pair of like low.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Rise slacks or whatever.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That sounds like a good, it's a good outfit.

[Anna Khachiyan]

But people are like, ew.

[Jackie]

Like do you ever shower? And I'm just like, I'm like Carolyn Bessette Kennedy, you guys.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I'm an iconic, classy, aging, horse faced.

[Jackie]

Woman who wears the same thing every day.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, what I'm. I'm most jealous not of women like Carolyn and others not who are like skinnier or like have better bodies than me, but. But just women who have totally different coloring and can pull off different.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like I totally won't look good in like a stark white.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It's gonna make me look like sallow. Yeah. And you can do it.

[Jackie]

Yeah. Because I have like high contrast like dark hair and dark features with like Pale skin. But I'm.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That's what I'm jealous.

[Jackie]

But I'm. Conversely, grass is always greener. I'm jealous of blondes. Who can pull off the. I was saying this in our girls chat. Who can pull off the kind of like peak 90s, Michelle Pfeiffer, Sharon Stone, cool toned, ashy color palette or like khaki drab, for instance, which just makes me look like a Moldovan peasant. Like some woman like selling like angora hats in Riga.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

The Holocaust survivor.

[Jackie]

Like a prisoner of war. It makes me look like a prisoner of war.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, I've said, I've said this before, but Zelensky really ruined the olive drop T shirt kind of for everyone. But I can still wear a khaki button down. Khaki is one of my go to's. I'm trying. I over invested in black and I think I need to cycle in more browns. I think I just look better.

[Jackie]

You look good in black.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I look okay. It's not the most flattering.

[Jackie]

It's not. I would say it's like not your style, but you can pull it off.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Thanks, Anna.

[Jackie]

But yes, I think you're correct in that like every woman is jealous of other women who can pull off stuff.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That they can't and there's like nothing I can do.

[Jackie]

And also I think with Carolyn Bassett Kennedy, she had this unique ability to look like sexy and sensual wearing very kind of boring and sedate silhouettes. And most women when they try to do that look like they work at MOMA. PS1.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

Like there's a reason why like for example, you lean into like a certain like Lolita coquette look because it makes you look sexy. And I lean into like the kind of like Y2K low rise pseudo goth aesthetic because it does that for me.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. Office siren.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Water cooler whore.

[Jackie]

It's like that Sherry Oteri SNL skit where she's just like dropping heavy handed innuendo. And it's like John Goodman. What's the guy from Wade Blazing Game Dog Attorney.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Who?

[Jackie]

Chris Parnell.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Oh, yeah.

[Jackie]

He's like all the kind of like generic handsome, but not that handsome. SNL white men.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

And she's like boys, I just want to grapple your.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That's. People like to leverage a criticism of me for dressing age inappropriate. But they always like furnish photos where I am doing like a school girlish get up, but they're from years ago. Yeah, I don't do that anymore.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I think you dress like pretty age appropriate.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I think so.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Too.

[Jackie]

Like whenever you do one of those, like film Q&As, it's like, like a white blouse and a black pencil skirt.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I literally dress. Yeah, I get why I have that, that rep. Yeah. But I actually do dress pretty age appropriate. I'm not. Yeah, I'm. And I'm really struggling with my season, folks. It sent me into a spiral and that's why I'm noticing other people's undertones. Like Carolyn Bissette Kennedy. Well, so then Ryan Murphy responded because. Yeah. They released these images.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

Where like the actress Sarah Pigeon looks like she's literally wearing Aritzia or Zara or Mango or something. It's like the worst. Like an ultra suede duster and like kind of too tight, ill fitting black office clothes.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And then that picture from her on set in this midi skirt with Converse. Like who? Who, like what?

[Jackie]

Carolyn Bessette Kennedy would not be caught dead in Converse.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I mean, maybe, I guess charitably they're framing the feet out of that shot and that's like, yeah, she'd be wearing a shoe or something.

[Jackie]

But yeah, you sent me that article where they were like clearly coping and they were like these, these shots are not like final costume images. They were just meant for like lighting and staging. And we were such a liar.

[Anna Khachiyan]

It's such a lie because the guy.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

We just threw on a coat. We were just doing camera tests.

[Jackie]

Who plays JFK Jr doesn't look too great or convincing, but he looks better than her Regis.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And yeah, they're like, sure, it doesn't matter.

[Jackie]

Yeah, they put him in like a Patrick Bateman suit and gave him like crunchy, fluffy hair.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, sure, I'm buying it. Yeah, we're not watching the show for JFK Jr. Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That's not what people want to see. That's not what they want the meticulous styling for.

[Jackie]

And also, like their coupledom was very compelling because he was very conventionally attractive. Perhaps the most conventionally attractive man who's ever lived.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And a Kennedy.

[Jackie]

And a Kennedy. And she was really beautiful in a way that like Kate Moss and Sienna Miller, for example, are not. Even though they are arguably more conventionally attractive.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Kate Moss has, you know, I'm a. Yeah, Stan. But she has a weird, ethereal, special.

[Jackie]

Thing she has like her eye distance is too wide.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

As I would say if she was dating a Kennedy, we'd be saying she's, you know, but it's because she's a model. But. Yeah, I hear you. She's.

[Anna Khachiyan]

But you know what?

[Jackie]

I'm Saying, like, she's not like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And she wasn't. She's not like royalty. She's not, like, from a well bred, kind of waspy family in the.

[Jackie]

Well, that's the other thing. I think that the other part of their appeal is that they represent, like the peak or the pinnacle or like, frankly, last gasp of like, elite WASP culture, in spite of neither of them really being wasps.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right.

[Anna Khachiyan]

They're like.

[Jackie]

I think they were both like, Irish, French, whatever, Ellis island people.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I don't know actually about her background, but yeah, the Kennedys were Catholic.

[Jackie]

She's like Ann Coulter. I was actually thinking, like, the only woman holding down the legacy of Carolyn Bissette Kennedy these days is Ann Coulter.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

So true.

[Jackie]

Because she has the same kind of ribs, which is like, extremely skinny with huge tits.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Awesome. Well, Jackie O was WASPy.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Was she? Yeah, she was. She was, like, from the South. Bouvier. She's French.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, but like, north. The very Northeastern. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Jackie]

I don't even know anything about Jackie O. She's not like a woman that I follow or have ever had any interest.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

In, but I really do did when I was a kid for some reason.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Oh, yeah, you did the book report.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I gave a presentation and my mom sewed me, God bless her. I didn't do the pink pillbox hat thing. She. I, like, found another picture of her from some event in, like, an opera gown. And my mom, like, sewed me one.

[Anna Khachiyan]

That's so sweet.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And I wore it, something a Russian.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Mom would do, and gave a report.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

About how Jackie was the most interesting. We had to give apart the most interesting American. And I was like, her husband was shot and then she married the richest man in the world. She's the most interesting woman.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Imagine the psychic relief she must have experienced when her husband was finally, like, in the ground and she had romantic opportunities.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

She's like, yes.

[Anna Khachiyan]

What was I saying? But yeah, like something else that you and a lot of other people pointed out was like, that shot of, like, Sarah Pigeon in, like, the shitty whack outfit where she's holding, like, a Birkin bag, which isn't the model of Birkin bag that Carolyn Bessette Kennedy carried. And it's also, like, unfilled.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It's not stuff. It's not everything. It's nothing. It's so bad.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Like, it just, like, deflated, like, slumped down.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It looks like my fake mew Mew bag after I whipped it all over Europe.

[Anna Khachiyan]

It looks like something that you get from, like, African boobs on Canal street.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And now it's like sagging.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And then, yeah, the Vogue. We did an interview with her colorist who's now retired, but he specifically this is talked about in the CBK fan community is the buttery chunks that she had. This. She was a kind of a mousy brunette naturally.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But they brought her up to like a tawny. Then gave her these very chunky blonde pieces.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Like almost platinum.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, yeah. But like a yellow. Like butter, they call it.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And that's not at all what is going on with Pigeon. It's like icy. It's all one tone. It's not. It doesn't look. It's some. I saw someone say the post a. Post it and say that this is what the like old money aesthetics look like.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And it's so true.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like all the people who are like, here's how to dress or old money.

[Anna Khachiyan]

It's all like the conservat people nouveau re trash.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Or people who are like, you should dress. You can buy a suit for $100 on Amazon.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. It's like that discourse that was circulating recently about Zan Mumdani's wife and all the leftists were like melting down about how like uniquely and unspeakably gorgeous she was.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

She look like you.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I know, I know.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

They're so mean to you.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I know, I know, I know. Leftist poops be calling me like unfathomably, unforgivably ugly for what the over half.

[Jackie]

A decade and then some pops up.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Who looks like my literal sister but.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

With like little baby dsa baby bangs.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

And like, like an art hoe.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Bob, that girl is obvious.

[Jackie]

Like there's nothing wrong with her.

[Anna Khachiyan]

She's pretty.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

She's pretty. But see why he swiped right on her on hinge or whatever.

[Anna Khachiyan]

She looks good.

[Jackie]

And I actually saw a video of them walking around together. Zoran Mandani is a lot like Luigi Mangioni for me in that like, he's ostensibly like objectively not a bad looking guy, but I find him to be like physically repellent because he like doesn't smile with his eyes, which, like, I'm being hypocritical because that's a problem I also have.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right.

[Jackie]

But mine is because I'm shy and awkward and his is because he's like seething and mean, pretending to be a human being. But the girl is cute and fine. And some of the right wing guys had a more or less correct take on it where they were like, well, the reason people are responding to her is because she has like nice Skin and hair. And she's clean cut and has styled herself to be attractive for men. Like, she wears like kind of like.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Classic feminine pieces, which is probably true. But I'm like looking at her styling and it's like it looks like she.

[Jackie]

Went to Beacon's closet, which is unforgivable.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Considering that she probably comes for from.

[Jackie]

Generational wealth and should like know better.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, she's Syrian born.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But they had a wedding in Dubai.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Even though they are really harping on the courthouse subway photos.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And like what about the would you buy wedding?

[Anna Khachiyan]

What about the luxury destination wedding?

[Jackie]

And like, yeah. Her styling is actually like whack and off in a way that like straight.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Guys can't really understand because they just respond to like a short skirt and.

[Jackie]

Like tall boots, which is fine.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

They'll never. They're like the eevee sundress is fine. Just fine.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah, yeah. They're like you're. If you counter signal it, you're engaging in like intra sexual competition or whatever.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You can see her tits.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

She'S fine. Her drawing, I looked into her drawings.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Oh yeah. Her like deviant are drawings. She's like me for real in that.

[Jackie]

She'S a woman who looks better in motion versus in still photos. Like she looks really good on video.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Like, I'll give her that.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I. She's clearly an attractive girl.

[Jackie]

And like, it's so sad that like.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Zoan Mamdani and his like Syrian art ho wife are the closest thing we.

[Jackie]

Have now to Carolyn Kennedy and JFK.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Jr. No, they're like the aspirational power couple.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

No, there's got to be someone else.

[Anna Khachiyan]

But even you look at like women.

[Jackie]

Across the political spectrum who have like, again like technically ostensibly good style and.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Look polished and put together. Like Ivanka Trump or no, Huda. What's her name? Huda?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Aberdeen.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Aberdeen. Like they look classy in the modern like meme warfare, tick tock way. But there's always something off and over styled. There's too many jewel tones. There's too much midriff showing.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

The jewelry is too chunky and looks cheap even though it's probably really expensive.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I think Hubba Abedin had a wedding recently.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Oh yeah, she married Alex Soros.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. I think Sienna Miller was there actually.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I mean, the nicest thing I can say about her is that she has a type.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

She sure does. I mean, I was actually thinking, I'm way overhear how people hold it against me that I. Or call me a fascist or whatever. Like Josh Citarella when they're like, but you went to all these parties.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And it's like, yeah, I did. I also went to like Hubba Abedine's Purse party in the Hamptons because I was on like some publicist list on accident, clearly. But like, if Democrats invited me to some parties, I'd go to them.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Of course, of course.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I'll, I'll roll up, invite me.

[Anna Khachiyan]

We'll go to the Zio gala.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

What do I care? I'll come on. Going to a party makes you come on.

[Anna Khachiyan]

That's one of the.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Relax.

[Anna Khachiyan]

The most bizarre and vulgar aspects of being like a niche media personality is that I find it very understandable that like, young leftists who live elsewhere, like, not in any major city will like freak out at you and accuse you of being a grifter or whatever. Like, I get that. But when people that you know personally and like, have rubbed shoulders with and go to the same party, like, share a friend group with, are like lashing out against you or like, but we literally just inhabit the same social scene. That's so bizarre.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I know.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And like, I'm prepared to like, turn a blind eye and look the other way and like, not be mean and combative about your politics.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

My friendly acquaintances supporting Zoran Mumtani. And I'm like, sure, whatever. I'm like, you're ma' am, you're making a mistake, but whatever, I don't hold that against you.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah, yeah. Like, I mean, like all of our celeb friends basically are like team Zuron. And I'm like, that's, that's possibly the most human and least questionable thing about them because it's like they're kind of just like stock default progressives and they don't really care about politics, which I find inspiring and aspirational.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Totally.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And like, of course they're gonna go with him.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I mean, they don't have to say anything. Right. But some of our, a lot of our bohemian friends as well, you know, I just don't. I think, I mean, when like Cynthia Nixon was running for governor for that, I was like posting about her. I didn't know any. I, you know, I was like, she's from a Sex in the City. Yeah, she's kind of a Bernie Crat, you know, I was like, she's got the right. I was like, let's, let's do it. Let's vote for Cynthia. Like, I didn't know what she's for at all. I think a lot of people just do that.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah, it's like, you're a friend or a friend of a friend, and you're, like, on the scene, I'll just vote for you. You seem, like, comfortable and familiar. The other thing is that a lot of these people, because they do come from family money, of course, are so coddled and sheltered. That's not a value judgment. That's merely a observation. And so they. It literally does not occur to them that there are people who are not. Not smarter than them, maybe, but wiser than them because they've had more life experience and they sort of understand how the political game works. And in a weird, paradoxical way, that becomes their strategic advantage because they're very, like, forceful and idealistic. And that's like the biggest asset you can have in the war of ideas because you can actually just, like, dominate and browbeat people.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And I was even thinking. I didn't mean to, like, turn this into, like, a Zo Ron hate fest, but I was. I, like, came around to it and I was like, all right, fine, let him win. Because it might actually be interesting making, like, a real accelerationist argument here. Yeah, it could be interesting. Like, he will turn the city into a wasteland. Or maybe he won't. I don't even. Part of me doesn't. Part of me thinks that he won't even get around to it because he's going to be so gridlocked in bureaucracy.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And he'll be making tiktoks and shit. He just wants. He's a. Yeah, he's just.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah, he's an attention. He's just going to be a ceremonial figure. But, like, if he were to win and ascend to the level of, like, political fame that, like, AOC has, for example, he's going to be so epically owned by Donald Trump on the world stage.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

He, as.

[Anna Khachiyan]

It'll be a moment to remember, he.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Will be Donald Trump's delight.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. And Cuomo is right. Like, say what you want about that guy, but he's.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I mean, that's what sucks is I can't really be like, go Cuomo.

[Anna Khachiyan]

No, no, no. But he. He's a person who has life and political experience. He's not stupid.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Sauron's never even having a job.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Besides being like a Das Racist rapper.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Joke clown rapper on the subway. What Was his rap, Mr. Cardinal?

[Anna Khachiyan]

It's so gross.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It's disgusting. It's horrible. Come on, get real.

[Anna Khachiyan]

People doing desi rap looking like a total Gooner.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Very disrespectful. That's not the mayor. What the hell?

[Anna Khachiyan]

I'm so glad I never tried to have a rap career because I would.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You might have.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I was. Yeah. I couldn't even make it through my hip hop dance class in fourth grade. I got too scared. I got the chickenpox and was really relieved.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I know, I know.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

They're the black teens weren't laughing at me anymore.

[Anna Khachiyan]

They're handing out chickenpox vaccines to children now, which, like, I'm pretty much a moderate on this issue and feel like that that vaccine of all vaccines is probably fairly safe. But you want your kid to run the gauntlet of having chickenpox because that also builds character. It builds character and also brings some kind of psychic relief because you literally just like get taken out of school and like, don't have to do your hip hop dance class.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Do you remember having chickenpox?

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah, I, I loved it because, I mean, it was like shitty and itchy. But like, my mom kept us home.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Of course.

[Anna Khachiyan]

My sister's two years younger than me, so we basically like cycled through all the afflictions together.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, you know about pox parties.

[Anna Khachiyan]

No.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That's what kind of like proto anti vaxxer type moms would do in the 90s early aughts was just take their kids to be around a kid with chicken pox so they could all get it.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Damn. They're taking their kids to the gay sex orgy to get monkey pox.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But I mean, I have really unpleasant memories of it. I specifically remember having like boils between my toes that were really painful.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And. But yeah, it's a good, you know, suffering is salvific and it's pretty short term and relatively harmless.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And you get some cool scars for a while and you like. Yeah, it makes you. It's probably good for your character.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. And you, you basically get to do what you want and like not go to school for a while, which is fun. That's like all kids want is to.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Not go to school. Yeah, it's true.

[Anna Khachiyan]

You want to skip class.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Wait a minute. That's it. That's the podcast. I'm going to see if I have anything on. Oh, here's a funny quote from the article that you sent me of Ryan Murphy clapping back at the haters. Sadly, Murphy believes scrutiny hurled at the show's Carolyn is eerily similar to how the media and public treated beset Kennedy. We're writing a story about a person, an unknown person who falls in love with the most famous man in the world and suddenly she can't leave her house. Ryan says she was constantly being photographed being called a cunt by the paparazzi. Okay, like, what does that have to do with the fact that your like, costume department clearly is like, lazy and broke?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. He's. Her every move in passion choice was dissected ad nauseam. They're doing that to our Carolyn. What they did to the real life Carolyn Murphy says it's not fair. Total. These are people who are invested in the legacy of Carolyn Bissette Kennedy and want it to be done justice to. They're not calling her a. Like, what are you talking about?

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That's crazy. That's the opposite world.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Well, Brian Murphy also did the Swans. Right. Which is a show I watched on a plane and got really addicted to. And I remember even then like the styling was off.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, a lot of television styling is off. But my kind of like done by committee and without real like vision.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And by people who don't really understand what is like, important about.

[Anna Khachiyan]

It's done by millennial black gay guys. And they're fat. Not all white lesbian friends.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Not always, but often I think that it's a department that does get underfunded.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. But it's like very unclear what went wrong. I liked your take that you probably don't remember now when you, you said that Ryan Murphy was probably so overextended with all his like multiple projects that he didn't really like bother to nail down the vibe.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Or hire the right people.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, he knows people are gonna watch it anyway.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

So it's like he can kind of phone it in.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. And like my question is though, like, why didn't they just like dip into the archives easy given that they're. They probably had a budget for it.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I mean, maybe. No.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And they're like just like pulling like half assed contemporary dupes of existing pieces that you can actually probably buy on the real real like I think like low key.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Hollywood's boy broke.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. Everyone's broke.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I did a movie, the Materialists out now. You guys are going to love it. But that was like a 10 million a 24 movie. And like several departments complained to me about not having enough money. And the costuming was, you know, the people were talented, but like, they definitely were like spread thin, I felt.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And I think that comes across and people can see. I saw someone say cuz Kim Kardashian was on a season of like American Horror Story and that she was very wearing like designer clothes. But that's probably because she threw in personal styled Herself or, you know, like, had some say in production what she wore and, like, wanted to wear them.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Because, much like Pee Wee Herman, she's, like, a total, like, control freak and domineering personality and has to, like, fully, like, control her image at all times.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But also. Yeah, why wouldn't you. If you. You know, if you had clothes that were better.

[Anna Khachiyan]

The money, the resources. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Why not?

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, I have a chip on my shoulder about self styling because I'm like, what the. Like, you should trust me. If I was Kim Kardashian.

[Anna Khachiyan]

But you're actually, in a weird way, probably better off for it often.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. That. That was, like, the appeal of Chloe, 70, because she always, like, styled herself and she looked good and, like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, that's like.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah, that is. That's the nature of style.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

She's kind of on the level of Carolyn, to me, where, like, you.

[Anna Khachiyan]

She.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But she's worn. Unlike Carolyn, she's worn a lot of different looks.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But they've all been pretty, like, fun. Very good.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And, like, flattering. Like, she definitely knows she has, like, a style.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But, yeah, with Carolyn, I think the rewearing and she. But she wasn't, like, an unknown.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Totally. I know. Well, she was, like, a PR girl for Calvin Klein.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. And allegedly, they're famous. Like, explosive fights were related to the paparazzi attention. But that feels kind of like a convenient and, like, obfuscated reason. It's. I don't think she was that upset about.

[Anna Khachiyan]

No, they probably both liked it.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. I think you're not shacking a.

[Anna Khachiyan]

They were both, like, in. In spite of how.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Oh, cool. My ride's here. I have to go.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Times Square, baby. Yeah. New York minute, vibrant community. Yeah. But what was I gonna say? I'm like. So it's also very hard to podcast with how hot it is in here. I need to get an AC in here.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Oh, yeah, sure. Or at least a fan.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah, we're.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

There's a heat wave, y' all. It's rough out there.

[Anna Khachiyan]

No, it's so bad. I already feel so crashed out.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I know.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And I got the. The weather alert today, and it's, like, heat wave impending. Like, make sure you don't use too much energy and, like, stay in torrent.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I mean, I have been. I'm gonna die. I've really been up in my home.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I. I was thinking about how, like, I wouldn't ever kill myself, but I would do something reckless, and that would get me killed.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay, well, that's the kind of killing.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. And have like, leftist clowning on me for a day.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I. Yeah. I haven't left my. Well, because I have to leave my apartment during the week because of the construction noise.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. Wait, this is so interesting. It's like the guy in the car blasting, like, hip hop, and then the chopper flying overhead.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Get him.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Who they getting? I might not even edit this out.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, whatever.

[Anna Khachiyan]

People are always like, can't you just, like, hire a guy or, like, use an AI to do the editing? And I'm like, no, because I would have to give them notes.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And you have to do it anyway.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Actually, like, extend the process.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It's harder sometimes to, like, delegate a task.

[Anna Khachiyan]

It's just.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Or just as much.

[Anna Khachiyan]

No, always. That's why I always lean back on this really brilliant Madonna quote. I think she may have said it on Letterman. She was like, well, you know, you really can't trust people to execute your vision, so you have to do it yourself.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And then what? You're going to give them directions and then listen to it to make sure they did them correctly? Like, that's harder.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. Wait, what's her. I'm gonna Google what Madonna's sign is.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Isn't she a gem?

[Anna Khachiyan]

I think she may be a Virgo.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Oh, Virgo would make sense.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I wouldn't be surprised.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

What is. Why are Virgos so sexy? What is that?

[Anna Khachiyan]

Thanks.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But it's true.

[Anna Khachiyan]

August 16th. She's a Leo. She's Leo.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Oh, okay.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Oh, she has the same birthday as Matthew. I forget that.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Oh, cool.

[Anna Khachiyan]

We can. We should talk about the Pee Wee Herman documentary. He's a Virgo. He has the same birthday as my sister. August 27th.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Oh, interesting.

[Anna Khachiyan]

He's a Virgo. And it really comes through. He's, like, so very clearly a Virgo. Like somebody who has a very romantic and sensitive and idealistic, private, emotional side and who is perennially disappointed by other people because they fail to mirror his conscientiousness.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And is forced to, again, become, like, an exacting and domineering personality and a control freak.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And who, like, hides himself behind layers of conflict. This is like the classic Virgo thing. And, like, funny that Virgo. Virgo is the Virgin. You would think that it would be, like, a uniquely, like, repressed and asexual sign, but it's actually, like, really demented and horny.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, those aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

[Anna Khachiyan]

No, no. It's like you have a dark side.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

There is like, yeah. Some repression. The Pee Wee Herman talk was interesting. I was like, I wasn't really in the mood for it to be.

[Anna Khachiyan]

No, I know, I know. It was extremely boring in a drag. And it was. It was interesting in the ways that it was uninteresting, specifically.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And I, like.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I'm gonna pull up my notes like, Peewee.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I watched Peewee's Playhouse as a kid, even though I kind of had this sense that it was a little, like, naughty or like, it wasn't really for kids, which is what I liked about it. But it also kind of creeped me out. And I didn't. The rough around the edges stuff in a child's mind wasn't like, didn't. It didn't register so much. But again, yeah, if I had been in a different mood, but I was really. I found myself very, like, unamused kind.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Of same, same, same. It was.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I found him to be very cute.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Cute? Yeah, he's a.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

He's a very lovely and special. But I wasn't like.

[Anna Khachiyan]

He reminds me of Glenn Greenwald, first of all. Yeah, they're the same kind of guy. Gay, Jewish, liberal, who's exacting and forceful and essentially domineering, but has a soft, sensitive side. Like when he talks like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. Peewee has, like, a vaudeville twist and he has a lawyer, but, yeah, he.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Just like us for real. He's like a Virgo and also a circus. Yeah. My first impression of the documentary was, like, it's like a pretty neutral and frankly, kind of bland, like, attempt to, like. I guess they, like, explore, revisit the legacy of, like, Paul Rubens, AKA Pee Wee Herman. It relied on a lot of, like, stock conventions of contemporary documentary filmmaking. You have all these, like, BTS elements embedded in it. Like the. The clapboard. That's the doing the take at the beginning. Like, every documentary does that now, right? Then you have, like, the layer of, like, meta commentary between the filmmaker and Paul Rubens.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, I don't trust you.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. Where they're, like, negotiating not only the. The documentary process, but the nature of their working dynamic, which is becoming increasingly personal. And it becomes this kind of, like, bit or meme. And all of this is, like, placed over a very, like, linear narrative progression.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Of like, you know, it spans, like, from his birth to his death with his career in the middle. And it kind of, like, cycles through, like. Yeah. Like his circus adjacent youth in Sarasota, Florida, to his, like, zany experimental period. Being, like, a student at CalArts. To, like, the conceptualization of. Of the Pee Wee Herman character.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

To, like, the success of the influence.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah, like the. The kind of large scale success of the Pee Wee Herman franchise. His afterlife as like a character actor, which is kind of like a more demoralizing and disappointing version of his like child childhood dream of becoming an actor. He wanted to be like a screen legend, you know, like all boomers. He was like transfixed and transformed by the television medium. Another notable, but I guess unforeseen element is that he died like during the filming or shortly after the film wrapped. Yeah, I'm like fuzzy on the exact timeline, but apparently he'd been battling cancer for six years and like neglected to inform the filmmaker.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And then it's like before his death he was interviewed for film 40 Hours, which like, sounds.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like you're like, that's. It's a little vague what that means. Yeah, like before my death, I've done a lot of things.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like a classic, like Peewee Herman trick. Like that he was basically, yeah. Like very calculated and controlling. He made like the process appear effortless when actually like a lot of effort went into it. He likes like pulling surprises and playing tricks on people, that sort of thing. And I was like, like on the other hand, also this documentary was interesting in that it like grappled with like certain supposedly like controversial or problematic elements of his personal life. Like his sex scandals and sexual identity and sexual behavior and all this stuff.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, yeah, he was closeted, essentially, though not very well.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I don't really. I don't really buy that because my mom showed me Peewee's Playhouse when I was a kid and it was like a show I watched a lot and I was like, I'm actually very in love with Paul Rubens. I always thought he was like, so beautiful.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

He's gorgeous.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And he's. He's very interesting. He's like a classic Jewish guy. I can think of a lot of Jewish guys specifically that have this quality. Yeah, he looked, he looks so sexy in photo. He looks statuesque, monumental sexy in photos, but is actually very slight and nebbish in reality. Like, you know, like, Peter Vac has this quality.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Like where he has like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

He's beautiful.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. He has like a face for the screen. But when you see him in person, he's like very handsome and good looking and whatever, but he's like a normal person, right? Yeah. I hope I didn't do him dirty, but yeah. It doesn't seem. It doesn't. This documentary, I guess is like vaguely interesting in the sense that it doesn't like seek to like condemn or qualify his actions. Like, I was thinking of that talk that I Went to with R. Crumb, where his biographer, Dan Nadal, who's, you know, like a nice Jewish lib from Brooklyn who clearly is attracted to his work, was trying to, like, kind of like, hedge and whitewash all the racism and sexism and anti Semitism. That's just like a default mode.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right. And be like, oh, it's a critique.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. Of like, capitalist society or the ultra rich or something like that. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

People do this with Pasolini.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And like, Salo, where they're like, yeah. He. It's a searing indictment of fascists. And it's like, you don't have to make, like, a torture porn movie of teenagers to, like, tell people fascism is bad. He wanted to make this movie. He's acting on, like, his desires, which is why it's worth watching. Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And, like, not because it's like, ooh, the fascists are so bad.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. And it's like. But these guys did, like. I was thinking about this too. Like, all my favorite artists are basically openly communist. Anti fascist.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. Of course.

[Anna Khachiyan]

People like Alberto Moravia, Pasolini, Joseph Lossie, Harold Pinter, like, they're all like. Most of them are gay and were living under some kind of, like, oppressive regime and blah, blah, blah. Like Joseph Lassie, for example, got kicked out of Hollywood because of the McCarthyist purges and ended up going to London and teaming up with Harold Pinter and making this, like, the most amazing trinity of films that has ever existed. But he was, like, very openly anti communist, if not anti fascist. Like Carlos Suarez, who died like, a year ago or something. All these guys are like. When people are like, oh, yeah, like, leftism. Like, leftists can't make good art. It's like they're the only ones making good art.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Kind of.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

They've had. They've held the mantle for a while. Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And so, like, Jack pointed out that this documentary is less about, like, a specific famous guy and. And more about, like, the changing cultural landscape and that it's like an anti metoo film.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I read that post before I watched it and didn't totally get that impression.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I didn't get it at all. I. I'm gonna have to counter signal Jack here because he says, well, okay, with.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

With Paul Reubens, there was the Saratoga movie theater.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Adult movie theater. Where he was arrested for public indecent exposure. Exposure.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Which is ridiculous because, like, why do you go to an adult. It's a movie theater, if not to indecently expose yourself?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It's actually very mysterious. Yeah. That he was both caught in A sting operation and an adult movie theater where people obviously are jacking off. Why the. Wouldn't you jack what? That's the point. I thought that was allowed.

[Anna Khachiyan]

If you weren't jack off, wouldn't you go to regular theater?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I didn't realize that was adult theater.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And then the like, bogus like child pornography smear.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. Because he was like an avid collector of like vintage gay erotica.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And he actually never had any child pornography. But he was associated with that one actor, the red headed actor, Jeffrey Johnson or whatever his name, who legitimately, I guess, got nabbed for child porn.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay. Cuz that guy would like. I'm like, what did he. Did he counter signal Israel? Like, why did this happen?

[Anna Khachiyan]

It's like, really? But Jack pointed out in his very glowing review of this documentary that it's an exception to the rule because no one ever talks about gay men as people, which I thought was very insightful and astute. He, he talks about how like no one ever sees gay men as humans or individuals. On the left they're viewed as privileged misogynist oppressors and on the right as dangerous contaminants. And I can totally put myself in his shoes and sympathize with his position as like a person who's just like historically copacetic with the gays. Of course I with them. But like also, whose fault is that? It's like gay guys kind of did it to themselves because they turned themselves in, into a meme. And in that respect they were very like, they were just like merely ahead of the curve as gay guys often are because now everybody turns themselves into a meme. But it's like, okay, you think about like the Pride month pride marches, like RuPaul's Drag Race gay slang, which is basically cribbed from black slang. Whatever.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, yeah, just, just like the stranglehold cultural influence of the gay community.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah, it's very like mimetic.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Like now you have like nice white girls talking with gay guys.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

They had some control.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. And also like, I think that to me that like missed the point a little because like Paul Reubens is not your average gay man. Like, yes, like part of his appeal is that he brought like a uniquely gay aesthetic and perspective to like normie mass culture. For sure, it was like in the way that like Andy Warhol and John Waters did it.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But his closetedness, which I guess the film makes a case for, for.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Doesn't feel real. Real or meaningful actually because he was always very clearly kind of gay.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Everybody Knew it. Everybody knew it.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I didn't even think to question it. Even as a child. I was like. Knew that he was. Because I knew other gay people.

[Anna Khachiyan]

There's something off about him. Like the other boys.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I knew other gay people cuz I've come from a circus background. Showbiz. I've been in showbiz my whole life. And so I've known gay people that work in showbiz. And so I knew what kind of person he was.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. I don't think that's like his. His problem.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, and him hanging out with some vampy actress.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. Like Debbie Mazar or like Carol, what's her name? Like Carol Kane pretending to go on dates. And like, as Jack also points out, he like, achieved this, like, large, large scale, like performance art vision through this, the unlikely medium of children's television, which obviously became a thorn in his side when he was like, canceled first for the indecent exposure in the adult movie theater and then for the child porn allegations. But I don't like, to me like, him being in conflict with his gay identity is fake news and not really his core construct. I don't think he gave a. About that.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I think it was. Yeah, he was predisposed to being pretty private and didn't want to be outwardly gay. Not because there was like so much rampant homophobia in the industry that it would have necessarily hindered his career, though.

[Anna Khachiyan]

It would have. He claims, he claims. He.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I mean, he probably wouldn't.

[Anna Khachiyan]

That's his rationalization.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

He probably wouldn't have done a children's show, you know, if he was outwardly gay.

[Anna Khachiyan]

But.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But yeah, he decided to be closeted prior.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Did we stop? Oops. Oops. That's okay. Say that again.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I was saying that he made the decision to be closeted before Pee Wee's Playhouse.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And the dual decision to sort of live his life with the alter ego of Pee Wee Herman because he was already a naturally private person who is comfortable compartmentalizing and bifurcating his life into two portions. And then you were saying.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. That he. He made that decision not because he was in conflict about his sexuality. He wasn't. It wasn't so much that he was ashamed of being a homosexual because again, you remember that he was extremely well liked and well connected and it wasn't really a problem for him. He did it out of some like, weird Virgo like moral or principle where he. Yeah, he had some, like, ethical disgust at airing his private life in public.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And he wanted to have control over how he was Perceived.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And by his own admission, he talks about how it was easier for him to operate as an alter ego because he was, he could always say that he was like developing like a fictive Persona versus like as a bit. Versus advancing his own interests as like an artist and professional. Like he wanted some kind of plausible deniability.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

He needed a buff moral buffer.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yes, exactly. That's like very well said.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. He couldn't do Paul Rubin's Big Adventure because that would be too like self serving and narcissistic.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. And he like, I don't think this has anything to do with necessarily with his sexual identity. Yeah, it just feels. Yeah, that feels off to me. And. Yeah. And you get the sense with him that like he was like a singular, unique, like once in a lifetime personality. But what, what really drove home his uniqueness is kind of like. I don't know if it's like. It's sort of like inadvertently fleshed out in the documentary because, you know, you realize that he had a pretty like typical middle class upbringing that was weirdly free of drama or dysfunction. It's very interesting that both he and his sister were gay. Like, he has this very like stoic, intellectual, Gertrude Steiner seeming like lesbian sister. But you like, his home life was like loving and stable. His parents always loved and supported him. There was no weird tension or abuse there. His mother read him fairy tales and encouraged his creativity. His dad like had a big personality and was a good role model. His parents were automatically supportive of his homosexuality and the other, his proximity to the circus. Yeah. And like he found success relatively early on in life and had it consistently throughout his life, like just through the regular straightforward means of being a person who was like creative and ambitious and hardworking.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, that's what really. He was obviously singular and special. But I was kind of struck in the documentary by sort of like the ease and creative freedom of like an earlier era. He's like, we were just smoking weed and writing the screenplay and then we got it made. And then I called Shelley Duvall and she put me in touch with Tim Burton. And then it was, you know, and.

[Anna Khachiyan]

It'S like, like Phil Hartman's signed on.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, we all were just like make like. And that's just doesn't exist anymore.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Well, no, it, it does. It's just like more fractured and subcultural, I guess.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That's way harder.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, you know, a major feature motion picture without making concessions or getting like designed by committee.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. Getting long housed. Creatively, it was just a.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

There was like, there have been Brief windows of time, I feel like, where people have been able to, in part because of their will, but just also through circumstance, to, like, push an aesthetic and an idea forward in a big way.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And like, when you look back at it now, it looks like the typical woke crap. Like, especially if you're like a conservative leaning person. You look at like, Pee Wee's Playhouse and you're like, well, he's clearly a. Who was into cross dressing and camp and was like, corrupting and grooming children. But at this, at the time, back then, it was like a really novel thing and it hadn't been done before as such. And, like, the only source of, like, possible conflict in this documentary is like, the fact that he keeps achieving these, like, professional milestones at the cost of sidelining his, like, personal life.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, then his circus movie and, like.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Keeping his identity under wraps. Yeah. And he has, like, the kind of normal, like, standard challenges.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

His circus movie flops. He has a sex scandal, then another one. But all of it sounds pretty manageable in the long run. And that. That to me is like, basically the problem with like, the whole. With the story. It's like there. There is no story. There's no friction, there's no suspense. Like, it is remarkable and they try to, like, narrativize it, but, like, it kind of is what it is. Yeah. And then there's this, like, underlying subplot of his conflict with the sexuality. Or like. Yeah, he claimed he didn't want to be openly gay because it would, like, hamper his career somehow, which sounds like fake news. And you're supposed to get like, the sense. Yeah. Like 80s and 90s. And you're supposed to get the sense that, like, that's not the whole story. And he had some, like, deeper psychological conflict with it. But of course we're never going to know the truth. Like, whether that was actually the case or whether the filmmakers narrativized it.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I think with the, like, movie theater. There was a period of time where I guess there was like a legitimate homophobic kind of conflation of.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Well, there was like a satanic pedophile panic going on at the time. Time.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But like, yeah, gay sexuality and pedophilia. And because he did a children's show, like, I do remember there was like this somehow, you know, that's. And it's because it gets so mixed up in the ether when it's like Paul Reubens from the T. The children's TV shows and decently exposing himself. It's like then, yeah, people kind of Just draw conclusion, uninformed conclusions that he's a pedophile or that, like, he had some kind of sex scandal involving children, which he didn't.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But the whole thing is so suspicious because why was there, like, a sting operation in an adult movie theater in.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Florida.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

What do they think? Why? What are they. Are you not allowed to jack off in an adult movie theater?

[Anna Khachiyan]

Isn't that the whole point?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Is that. Is that the law?

[Anna Khachiyan]

But, like, overall, I found the. The documentary to be, like, somewhat boring and uneventful because everything just goes well for him. Well, there's the whole thing of his, like, black boyfriend dying of aids, which is, you know, just a footnote.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Kind of, like, shoehorned in.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. It reminded me of that, like, Louis CK bit that I really love about how if he were to, like, write his, like, ultimate ideal movie, it would just be about a guy. Like, a linear progression of a guy's life that keeps getting worse and worse with no plot twists or, like, redemption arc. And. Except instead of, like, being overwhelmingly negative, like, his story is overwhelmingly positive.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

There's, like, this whole, like, arc where he, like, falls in love with this, like, sensitive, like, sensual, beautiful, funny black guy named Guy, and, like, steals his bits, and they immediately fall into playing house together in la. And then he, like, abandons this, like, very peaceful but unexciting existence because he wants a career in show business and, like, that. Also, like, I don't think he abandoned, like, turned his back on, like, a beautiful and perfect gay relationship because he had misgivings about being gay. He did it because he wanted to be a star, and this guy was getting in his way. Yeah. And it's very telling because Paul Rubens never got aids, or at least never died of aids because he was so focused on his work. That whole moment just passed him by. And meanwhile, all his, like, colleagues and contemporaries were, like, literally dropping like flies.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right. Yeah. Because he was a Virgo workaholic.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And, like, the picture that emerges is of a guy who is basically. Yeah, like a control freak. Dominating. Your personality is exacting. He holds grudges. He has conflicts with nearly everyone he's friends with and works with.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Like, that kind of thing. He likes animals more than he likes people, to the point that he's, like, rescuing mice and spiders.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I. I'm sure there's one out there, but I want to see a doc about Phil Hartman getting murdered by his wife.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. By his, like, BPD wife.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, that would be interesting.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Phil Hart is so hot. He had the best voice.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Oh, my God, he was amazing. It's so. That's so sad.

[Anna Khachiyan]

One of. One of Paul Rubens's friends and colleagues says he's calculating, but you're not watching him calculate. You're just seeing that the result of someone who's in control. And then the actor Martin Landau said he held an audience like Hitler. He is a fascist personality.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Oh, yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And it has nothing to do with him being gay?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Partly.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I mean, sure. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But, yeah, a lot of gays are fascist.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And vice versa.

[Anna Khachiyan]

But basically.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, he's.

[Anna Khachiyan]

He's clearly a person who. Like many basically intelligent people and a lot of earth signs. He is, by his own words, romantic and sensitive, AKA idealistic, AKA narcissistic. He finds it intolerable when people don't meet his criteria or found. RIP. Whatever.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And. And, like, basically that life is. Is one of, like, solitude and alienation.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. But sometimes that's what it takes.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Not always.

[Anna Khachiyan]

No. But, like, you. You look at, like, all the. The forethought and planning that went into, like, the show itself. He talks about how he wanted to make the show, like, kind of conceptually radical and racially inclusive without commenting on it in any way, which is true. Like, he cast Laurence Fishburne as. What was his name? Cowboy something.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Which, like, Beyonce kind of repurposed this. Cowboy Carter.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I don't. I just looked up and, like, a country black person. The movie theater scandal happened in 91.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Okay. Oh, wow. I thought it was, like, in 2000 or something. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

So it was after. So any encounter that kind of makes sense why my memories of it are colored as being somehow naughty. Because I was born. I probably knew, you know, if I watched Pee Wee's Playhouse as a kid, which I did. But I probably, like, understood that there was, like, a scandalous.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Underbelly.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Because you were born the year of the sex scandal. Yeah. Interestingly, though, when he talks about, like, yeah. Like, kind of, like, racial inclusivity, like, I feel like that was already kind of the norm in the 90s.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Benetton ass. Yeah, we were, like. It was a different pitch of culture war, but we were doing a similar.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah, yeah, but, like, black people were simply just, like, accepted and included.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

In artistic production. And it was like the heyday of, like. Yeah. Like, bet, UPN9. Like, you had, like, stars like Eddie Murphy.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And once you're already working in a very, like, kind of Brechtian and abstract mode with the playhouse, you don't have to like you're not. It wasn't a western where it would have been weird for a black guy to be a cowboy. It all like made sense. It was. But.

[Anna Khachiyan]

But the idea of like having a black cowboy is very campy. It's drag.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I mean, it's all.

[Anna Khachiyan]

It's gay.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Gay and camp. Yeah. Like from top down. And Pee Wee himself. Yeah. Is this like boyish? You know, kind of bratty?

[Anna Khachiyan]

It's.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It's a. It's a very interesting character.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Like twinkish. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Because. Yeah. He's kind of like this arrested figure who is like mischievous and like not dangerous, but not really safe. Like he is and everything. Everyone in his world kind of.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And it's a chaotic and confusing but.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, but in like Peewee's Big Adventure, you know, it's kind of like a given in the world that he exists in. He's not like a freak.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. And like in the, in the Circus movie that flopped. Right. Like, they were talking about how he was adamant about having like the longest kiss in movie history. And the studio was like, we have to cut this. This is like annoying and uncomfortable. And you can tell that he wanted to include that because he. He kind of like subversively wanted to like troll and punish people.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Because he was very clearly gay and resented that people wanted him to like speak on that. Right. Or to like budget it into his identity. Yeah. He talks about how he wanted the show to be like educational in an undercover way that had a lot of innuendo that was meant to go over kids heads and appeal to like kind of like hip, progressive parents. That's probably why my mom showed it to me. It was like very subversive and eccentric. I think like the way that he handled his sex scandals was also very revealing. Where he talks about how like the most devastating part of it was losing his anonymity. And then he stages this like crisis PR photo op with Carol Kane where they're like supposedly going on a date.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

He said he wanted to come out on top without looking like a victim. And then one of the most notable parts for me was when he disputed the idea that the public has a short memory and said that the public's memory is like a steel trap.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That's partially true. Like what I was saying. It's not that like people will remember the details, but that a scandal will get kind of warped into someone's narrative forever. Forever. And.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And it becomes your reputation. And he's like, well aware of that.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But it's not that people remember. Yeah. That there was a sting operation on an adult movie theater in Florida in 1991 that he was caught up in. It's like they remember that he did something bad and that he did a TV show for kids. And that's worse than, like, actually having, like, a elephant memory, as he says. It's that it's this all kind of, like, foggy amalgam of a collective memory.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. And he's, like, very. Just like. I don't know. I guess I would say, like, emotionally and psychologically intelligent. Of course, he's not, like. He's not like, an intellectual or a theory cell, but.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

No, he's tapped in.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. Which is like, a hell of its own. At the start of the documentary, he says that, like, the. The whole idea is that you don't have a perspective on yourself, but, like, the implication that he's trying to get across is that he actually does.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right. And they keep asking him, like, what if he were to direct the documentary, which he kind of, like, wants to or claims to.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And he supplies them with footage, like, what he would do.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. And he's like, what if I give you, like, a list of questions that I want to ask the other interview subjects, and the filmmaker is like, this is weird and unethical. You know, we can't do that.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

He's. He says, I don't really want this to be a legacy movie. I want to set the record straight in a couple. In a couple of things. And that's pretty much it. Which on one hand is true, but. But on the other hand, it is like the classic Virgo thing of, like, playing dumb and feigning humility.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And he's, like, very articulate about, like, acknowledging, like, certain uncomfortable or unflattering emotional realities, which actually has the paradoxical effect of making him totally emotionally inaccessible. Like, you know, his take on being the subject of the documentaries, that he's used to being the one who's manipulating others Right. Through his alter ego trickster. Yeah. And now someone else is making all the decisions of. For him. He mentions, like, being, like, kind of seethingly fiendishly jealous of other. Of child stars as a kid. On the topic of fame, he says, I'm such a star. There's something so exciting and fun about success.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. Very, like, paradoxical conflict there.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. He's like. He's a person who's, like, in.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I want. He wants to be private, but he wants to be famous.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

He wants. That's what he wants.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. Yeah. I find that very relatable. Like the kind of like evil, hypocritical, like, poisonous side. Like being a Virgo.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. Is that you want the attention, but kind of on your own terms.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. And you'll literally like, just tell everybody, like in full honesty about all of your like, misgivings and doubts and like, self criticism, which is usually correct in a way that's supposed to disarm and naturalize them, which is frankly evil.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I mean, I do some. A different version.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Like, can I still.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. That is maybe more Pisan in nature. But I have this like, moral ultimatum about the truth, you know. But then I give myself a kind of like, laxity.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Where I am like, well, at least I'm telling the truth. But that's not necessarily the always most like, ethical or correct.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. Like, you know that by telling the truth you create a lot of like, damage and lead. Leave a lot of destruction in your wake. Yeah. Like, you also have to selectively tell the truth, which is like intolerable to you because neurodivergent white lying and not telling the full truth makes you like, angry and resentful or whatever. I mean, overall, like, the impression I have of him is that he's like very likable and even somewhat sweet.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Totally. No, yeah. He's. He doesn't seem villainous in the least.

[Anna Khachiyan]

But like, as a person who essentially, like his law in life is being forever alone.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, that's.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And like the reason that his.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It's Warholian too, I think.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

What? Was Warhol also a Virgo?

[Anna Khachiyan]

That's a good question. We should look this up. And what's John Waters?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, good question. I'm gonna run in the numbers.

[Anna Khachiyan]

What are all these, like, evil. Highly intelligent.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay. Warhol's a LEO. August 6th. So close. And John Waters is a Taurus. Interesting.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

My impression of when we met him was very Virgo esque, you know that he kind of had talking points.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That were like impenetrable and a little bit controlling.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. And he's like interested in other people as like a novelty and curiosity.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

It. It feels almost mean, even though he doesn't mean it that way.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right. But Rubens like Warhol. Yeah. Was also kind of a. Kind of like weird, isolated.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Gay guy.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

With like a very exacting aesthetic.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And was obviously a big influence on Ruben. So he talks about it.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. Yeah. Like, he was like watching the early Andy Warhol, Paul Morrissey films. Whatever. And he like translated that aesthetic to children's programming, which is like bizarre and perverse. And subversive.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

But, yeah, like, I guess my impression of it is, is not that he's narcissistic and exacting because he's a homosexual, but he's a homosexual because he's narcissistic and exacting.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Very wise.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Like, he can't live. He's. He's fundamentally, like, interested in other people, but he can't live with other people.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. And his gayness is sort of beside the fact.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. I don't like. Yeah, okay.

[Jackie]

Like, we get it.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Seem like a big part of his actual lived experience.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. Like, he's clearly like a gay man who had gay sexuality in the sense that he was sexually interested in other men, but that really just, like, has nothing to do with, like, his rise.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And, like, fake fall.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Because the. Honestly, the. In terms of cultural memory, the child pornography stuff, I. I didn't recall.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. And obviously, like, the. Both the. The adult theater and child pornography stuff is so overblown and fake and he did nothing wrong.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

It's like he clearly was.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And was, like, vindicated.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Sort of. For not.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And I guess in. In that sense, the worst you can say about him was not that he was, like, a gay pervert, but that.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

He was a collector of fine erotica.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Well, that he was, like, basically asexual.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Because he didn't really care about sex that much. I'm sure he used sex to, like, get a load off, as everyone does.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

About erotica, which, again, is also a very, like, removed.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It's, like, misplaced.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, relationship to sex. The fact that he had such an extensive collection of vintage gay porno is very cool, but he. But, like, doesn't really give me the impression that. And again, also, an adult movie theater, like, he was, like, Warhol, a little bit of, like, a voyeur in his sexuality.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

He's a person who's an active participant and a guy who was like, you know, being gay as fuck.

[Anna Khachiyan]

He's like a person who's basically like, unmanageable, unknowable, inaccessible. Morrissey, not Paul, but Stephen Patrick is also like, this so true, where, like, he wants the attention but has a contempt for those who would give it to him.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. I mean, the stage invading is such a good and visceral example of that, as he, like, invites people to charge at him and try to make contact with him, but then has them, like, fascistically and violently removed. And we all participate in this, like, ritual where people try to touch Morrissey and he doesn't quite let you yeah. So. So real, like, the.

[Anna Khachiyan]

These are people who basically, you know, have some kind of relatively normal desire for sexual release and emotional affection, as all people do, but for whom that is secondary. That's probably like the most damning thing I guess you could say about him, that he's not motivated by that. Really? He's not like a compulsive gooner.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

No.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Even though, ironically enough, he was caught gooning in an adult movie theater.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. But again, very suspiciously.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, I don't really get what that was.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Well, he was probably, I guess. Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. But he was, like, spiraling, like, hot off of the failure of his movie and didn't know what he was gonna do with himself.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But are you not allowed to do that? Yeah, I know. I really. I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask ChatGPT.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I also love the bit, like, basically the way that I caught wind of Paul Rubens initially was because I was a big fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the movie with Kristy Swanson and David Arquette. And he plays, like, the villain in it. And I remember being, like, transfixed by it. Like, my two favorite movies were growing up were Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Lost Boys.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Which were like, you know, like Gen X elder millennial vampire movies. And that was like a role that he got after the sex scandal and he was being, like, rehabilitated in the press or whatever. I forgot where I was going with this, but. Oh, he deliberately conspired to make his, like, styling on the movie look like his mug shot.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Right, right, right, right. Huh? Yeah. Of public masturbation in any public space is illegal in most cases U.S. jurisdictions. And indecent exposure, lewd conduct laws. Touching your own genitals when. Where. When others are or could be present is a crime.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Damn.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But that seems so crazy. It's not a felony. Okay. And he was sentenced to 75 hours of community service that he used to make anti drug PSA in spite of.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Being, like, a huge stoner.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. I liked. How many people also were stone. Like. Yeah, I'm always. I always feel a little vindicated.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

When there are, like, high functioning stoners. Because a lot of right wingers love to talk about how it's like a degenerate and useless, like.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Well, like all things. It's one of those things that. That, like, has diminishing returns when it's, like, normalized in mass normie culture. Like now you go outside, I don't think there's like, head shops and like, CBD storefronts. And you Literally just like walk outside and smell weed everywhere and it's disgusting. And like, I mean, when I. An olfactory and cultural pollutant, it makes me sick when you. You see like all sorts of different people from all walks of life just like toing up on the street. This is disgusting and pathetic.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Nor like, probably like a nursing student or something like, smoking weed on the street. I'm like, get. Or like her like, skinny fat boyfriend. They're like smoking a blunt. I'm like, that is disgusting.

[Anna Khachiyan]

But also like, weed smoking is very boomer coated because they all love to like, brag about how much weed they smoked. And they were like hippies.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, there's a Gen XY kind of like Seth Rogan.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Right.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like whole that. That There's a whole contingent of culture around that too that was like very like weed centric. I mean, I know it's not my favorite culture, but as a habitual occasional marijuana user, yeah, I do think it's not like it. But when I. When I got weed in Trinidad and I had to go to like that Rasta drug den, I was like, this is how hard it should be.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

To get it, you should have to find like, African or illegal, but like, somehow sanctioned in like a community of like, Haley Salossi ass, like head. Not even a head shop. Just like some weird space. Like, you should have to go to like a secret area to get it.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. You can just go to like a park in New York or Berlin and just like cop weed from some like, random African.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You have to get it from like a rustic, a person who thinks it's like a sacrament.

[Anna Khachiyan]

He tells us also, like, he tells this very interesting story. I mean, also it's not that interesting because I feel like the impression that I got from this documentary is that like, all the stories that they tell.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It was kind of like the Martha Stewart doc.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. Where it's like, like overly controlled and managed. And like, the stories are supposed to be like, quirky Chungus. It's like when they wheel out like an actress like Isabel Hurricane or like Nicole Kidman and she's like, happy birthday, by the way.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Oh, who? Which one?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Kidman.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Oh. And they were like, I can't stand like dog owners or I can't stand weed smoking. They say like something like, relatable and like, Twitter is buzzing about it. And you see like these NPC tweets that have like 56,000 likes or something over something like some actress said, like, was fed to the press.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

The people saying Dasha jump scare yeah. In a letterbox review.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Is so crazy. Like, how do you people. Not so many people.

[Anna Khachiyan]

How are you not ashamed of yourselves?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, so many of you are saying the same exact thing.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. It feels, like, coordinated. It feels like an op. It's like, what? Like, you're all coming up with it.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That's crazy.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Just to signal that, you know, I'm in the movie and you approve and or disapprove of me. It's unclear, but, like.

[Anna Khachiyan]

But you're, like, registering knowledge.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You don't have a mind, so you're just gonna say what you see.

[Anna Khachiyan]

No. It's so horrible. But there's a story he tells about how his mother would sarcastically say to him as a child, well, like, everyone who doesn't agree with you must be wrong. And he would say unironically. That's right, Mom. And then he sort of says, like, as an adult, I've actually come to see that that was true. If you don't agree with me, then you're wrong. And then he does this thing where, like, this a bit where he's like, actually, I'm kidding. I don't mean that, but actually, I kind of do. No, I don't. But maybe you think I do. And he's doing, like, that thing, and it's like, he obviously does think that, like, anyone who's not aligned with his vision is, like a loser in a rube. Yeah, but that's literally it. He's, like, right about that. Like, if you want to be truly free or make a mark on the world, you just cannot agree with other people and have to do what you want to do at all times. At, like, the great personal sacrifice of, like, hurting others and alienating yourself. That's just, like, what it is.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, it's good to get the representation for that kind of thing. Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. When they're talking about, like, blackters getting representation.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Mm.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I'm like, I want to see some, like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And Laurence Fishman's like, I didn't really get it, but I needed the work.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I'm gay for pay, so I'll do this weird faggoty show.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Remember when Laurence Fishburne's daughter was doing porn?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

So sad.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I forgot about that.

[Anna Khachiyan]

That was, like, a mid aughts thing.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

We've done about an hour and a half.

[Anna Khachiyan]

That's fine. We can wrap it up.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

We don't need. I don't want to get into Iran.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. I have nothing to say. I've been, like, blissfully ignoring that and like last night I was like hanging out and people are like, oh, yeah, like there's a war. War just dropped. Is we getting a war?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I have been sort of following it because I kept waiting for something to happen.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And I guess today it did. Or yesterday.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Well, Trump bombed the nuke facilities.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna Khachiyan]

The idea.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Israel bombed the nuke facilities like eight days ago. Then Iran started firing ballistic missiles into Israel. The US Shot some of those down, but was still kind of like not getting involved. And then finally. But the Israel needs the US because we have some bomb called a bunker buster that. Yeah. It can penetrate into the core depths of this nuclear facility. And we finally dropped it yesterday or today. The New York Post headline was like, we bombed Iran. And then it was like, quote from Trump, it's time for peace.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. And I guess all the kind of like anti war leftists and anti war right wing crypto leftists are like, he's going to drag us into another. Like, well, I long winded forever war. I don't know what's going to happen.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

A lot of people did not vote for Trump on. They don't, they don't, they don't want the war with Iran. You know, that wasn't. We didn't want that. And no, I think nobody really does. And. Right. I see how bombing a country is an act of war.

[Anna Khachiyan]

It's an invitation to have a prolonged retaliation. Serious engagement. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But I just think more will be revealed and I don't want the war with Iran, obviously.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Well, Catherine had a good take in our girls chat where she said that she was positive and optimistic that this was just a beautiful show for some by the majestic Trump and that it also gives Iran a way out. I could buy whatever. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care about Israel or Iran. It's a pity both sides can't lose.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

So true.

[Anna Khachiyan]

I just want to have like a white girl crash out summer. Summer fun.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. This isn't a good, this isn't part of our summer vibe. So we're not going to talk about it.

[Anna Khachiyan]

For once I'm not glued to Twitter taking in all the.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Just I'm like Ted Cruz. I don't know anything about Iran.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And oh yeah, I told you I watched the Power of Nightmares. The Adam stock, which is. Feels extremely quaint because it's about kind of the war on terror and how the Islamic jihadists and like the Straussian neoconservatives all both created this idea of the other as this like looming threat that they needed to then engage.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. This is like Peter Thiel Strausian moment. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But he talks about how the, you know, their Al Qaeda is not actually like an organized terror network and not a real threat and that it's all kind of the politics of fear that are driving. Yeah, it all makes sense, but.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Well, it's like memeing villains into existence.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Exactly.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Which again, gay guys are ahead of the curve on.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But it is interesting to talk about how, like, yeah, Al Qaeda might not be the threat facing the uk. There's also like, Tony Blair footage talking about Al Qaeda and these very like, hypothetical terms. But now, like, I guess I don't even know when it came out, like 2005, 2003, after 9 11. But like, pretty early.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But now, like the. It's not Al Qaeda that the UK should have been worried about.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It was like my migrant crisis.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It's like that now most people in England are named Muhammad and stuff. And they might not be like jihadist sleeper cells, but it's like, that's. That's something else.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Well, as many much smarter and greater people have pointed out, like 9 11, the aftermath of which was supposed to decisively crush the Islamist threat, had the effect of just inviting more Islamic immigration into the country. And it, like, when you look at like, Iran's like, Middle Eastern people are so gay and dramatic. As say, meme pointed out. Like, the Iranian, like, official Twitter will tweet out, like, we have a surprise for you that you won't forget. Your lives will be ruined. You will be. Your civilization will be destroyed. And then like, literally nothing happened.

[Jackie]

Yes.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And because they have to, like, they have to like, save face in front of their population. I mean, and also the international community, they're like between a rock and a hard place. Like, literally, because they just like, have like, desert and like, stones up in there. It reminded me like the, the stuff coming out of like, Iranian official media reminded me of like that time that we read Osama bin Laden's letter on the podcast.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Totally.

[Anna Khachiyan]

And it's just like, crazy because you're like, these people sound like high school leftists.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, yeah, that was the Iranian revolution.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah. They're so stupid. They're like, oh, capitalism, those neoliberalism dogs.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

In the west are.

[Anna Khachiyan]

They sound like Jenner gamblers.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

They gamble and wear short skirts over there. And that's why we must wait.

[Anna Khachiyan]

They're gooning to Whitney Houston. I mean, oops. I mean, I mean.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Huh. Anyway, and yeah, I'll wrap it up.

[Anna Khachiyan]

But it's like very clear also that, like, I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for Iranian people. I like Iran and Iranian culture.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Persians are noble and beautiful peoples. I don't want to go to war with them at all.

[Anna Khachiyan]

They're also like very intelligent relative to all the other people in that region.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, I also don't think that they are that close to having a nuke somehow. I just.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah, that's just a hunt.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, I'm not a developing. Yeah, like, okay, they have some enriched uranium that they're not supposed to. But like, Israel, Israel, relax and get your boot off my neck. Okay?

[Anna Khachiyan]

I know, I know. And it's like also crazy, this idea that like, that a lot of like fuentards promote that like the American empire can't strike out at Iran, which historically has been antagonistic to American interests because that means that you're a Zio cuck and you're just like following the lead of Israel. Like, that's not true also.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, in this case, we actually don't have any business being in Iran outside of defending Israel. Who just attack them.

[Anna Khachiyan]

No, we have. I think we have some purely American interest. I mean, this is also like a very like, no way, no way. They're not also a very geriatric, sclerotic regime that are like willing to do anything to hold on to power.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

We do not need to be spending money on our precious bunker busters on Iran.

[Anna Khachiyan]

But I don't know. I. I don't know if I'm going to be like, proven wrong. I'll eat my words, whatever. I like, literally don't care about this conflict, but I feel like probably it's not gonna turn into another forever war.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, we.

[Anna Khachiyan]

It's not.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

We haven't like occupied Iran. We drop bombs on them. So it's not.

[Anna Khachiyan]

There are like three supposedly nuclear generating facilities.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It is different from like Iraq, where we like fully occupy.

[Anna Khachiyan]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Boots on the ground, warrior. You know, like, then you have. That's way harder to like, pull out of. I like think, yeah, we drop some bombs on them and like, they'll retaliate.

[Anna Khachiyan]

It's like a show force. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Or like against some US military bases probably. It's not good. None of it's good. And we are doing it on, you know, behalf of Israel, which is like, not. Not really. Not America first. No. But I ultimately am kind of trusting the plan because like you said, we're just trying to get through the summer. See you.

[Anna Khachiyan]

We'll see you Now Sat.