Ayatoldya

Summary

Red Scare: "Ayatoldya" (March 9, 2026)

Hosts: Anna Khachiyan & Dasha Nekrasova

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Red Scare, Anna and Dasha return after a brief hiatus to dissect the recent U.S.-Iran conflict, the disintegration of MAGA’s confidence, and broader cultural anxieties radiating from both global politics and domestic malaise. The hosts fluidly move from condemnation of U.S. foreign policy to spirited commentary on contemporary cultural topics, including the portrayal of Carolyn Bessette Kennedy in “Love Story” and the virality of "I Regret Having Children" essays. The tone is characteristically disaffected, ironic, and at times deeply melancholy about the direction of both politics and culture.

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1. U.S.–Iran War and the Disillusionment of MAGA

Timestamps: 00:29–31:01

Key Discussion Points:

• Mercury Retrograde and a Blood Moon: The hosts open by ironically blaming astrological chaos for “minor interpersonal and bureaucratic snafus, not war with Iran” (00:41).
• Trump, Israel, and Iran:
  • The assassination of the Ayatollah and Trump’s escalation for Israeli interests.
  • Rubio’s open admission followed by evasive rollback ([02:36]).
  • Open acknowledgment of U.S. foreign policy being “ZOGged” (Zionist Occupied Government) ([03:23]).
  • Little effort to justify the war—no regime change narrative or WMDs; even prior pro-Trump influencers and loyalists are now divided.
  • Quote: “It’s a totally zogged war that no one wanted... that we didn’t vote for. It’s a betrayal.” – Anna ([03:23])
• Collapse of Messaging and Confidence:
  • Trump inner circle in chaos; Marco Rubio blaming Israel, J.D. Vance silent, Hegseth “being a psycho” ([06:13]).
  • Israel “taking advantage” while America is under its control.
  • Sullivan vs. Soldo: Different editorial takes—Israel seeks nuclear exclusivity; US and Israeli interests may now be at odds ([07:05]).
  • Discussion of oil shocks, global economic risk, and how the U.S. public will ultimately pay a price ([08:19]).
  • The new Ayatollah is the “hardline” son of the assassinated leader—“we just murdered his dad and his wife,” making him “even more of a hardliner” ([09:47]).

Notable Quotes:

• "There's no real unified messaging... no one wanted this war." ([05:50])
• "It does not feel like he’s made America great again. And I don't want it to go out like this." – Anna ([12:03])
• "We're taking a massive L here." ([05:35])

Memorable Moments:

• Anna expresses visceral, personal upset at the school bombing in Minob, referencing a little boy “waving goodbye to his mom” ([10:22]).
• Dasha notes the deep shame that comes with America’s actions feeling in service of another country, not patriotism ([10:53]).

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2. The Fragmentation of the Right & Trump’s Tarnished Legacy

Timestamps: 15:16–31:01

Key Discussion Points:

• Right-wing Disarray:
  • Former Trump loyalists vowing to vote Democrat, others spinning desperate coping narratives (“plan trusting”).
  • The base is “taking an L.” Trump’s core successes (immigration, culture) are “not worth it for a zog war” ([12:32]).
  • Oil price apocalyptic scenarios and the likelihood of refugee crises, the irony of anti-immigration “America First” causing mass displacement ([14:35]).
  • The neocons of the Bush era at least had a “noble lie” (WMDs, spreading democracy); there’s not even that pretense now ([18:34]).

Notable Quotes:

• “I voted for Trump. I wanted the Ukraine war to end. I voted for America First. I didn’t vote for a war in the Middle East.” – Anna ([17:37])
• “If you're gonna do something abroad, you better have a... good reason that benefits America. And this has none of that.” ([30:51])

Memorable Moments:

• The hosts reminisce about previous wars and acknowledge things feel “worse” now ([18:18]).
• Dasha relays internet “doomer” takes—e.g., Curtis Yarvin warning about mass immigration as a consequence of war ([16:43]).
• Gallows humor about “annexing Greenland instead of carpet bombing Tehran” ([18:02]).

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3. Contemporary Culture: ‘Love Story’ and Carolyn Bessette Kennedy

Timestamps: 31:09–58:25

Key Discussion Points:

• Escapism and Nihilism:
  • A pivot into TV talk (“My personal Iran is Ryan Murphy’s Love Story” — Dasha [31:11]), noting “time sunk fallacy” and Stockholm Syndrome with current pop culture ([31:27]).
  • Cultural moment around JFK Jr. and Carolyn Bessette Kennedy nostalgia; the show’s imperfect casting, costume, and character takes ([38:08]).
• Media Criticism and Gender:
  • Debates around Maureen Callahan’s Daily Mail excoriation of Carolyn Bessette, the nature of feminine mystique/“idolatry”, and the public immortality of beautiful dead people ([33:00], [35:02]).
  • Daryl Hannah’s op-ed on being negatively portrayed in the show, and her claim of being subject to misogyny and misrepresentation ([44:20], [45:58]).
  • Quote: “She’s not beating the bitch allegations by being a bitch about how she’s portrayed on the show.” – Anna ([44:29])
• Celebrity, Reputation, and the Female Archetype:
  • Musings on Carolyn as an “intact sense of self”—her mythic status regardless of moral flaws ([51:01]).
  • The tension between discretion and performative notoriety in Kennedy mythos ([54:30]).

Memorable Moments:

• Sarcasm about animal activism as a “red flag” ([60:38]).
• Connection between public image battles and personal insecurity; “If she really didn’t want this negative portrayal, she would have said nothing” ([57:36]).

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4. Motherhood, Antinatalism, and the ‘I Regret Having Children’ Articles

Timestamps: 64:05–97:33

Key Discussion Points:

• Deconstructing Motherhood Discourse:
  • Review of The Cut’s “I Regret Having Children,” focusing on anonymous accounts of lost identity and disappointment.
  • Discussion of the lack of wider perspective—regret from new mothers may not represent broader truths, and the nature of identity lost through childrearing ([68:09]).
• Societal Atomization and Class Anxiety:
  • Notion that having kids reveals real class position, destroying “delusions” of social mobility ([74:20], [76:04]).
  • Hostility to contemporary articles that equate parental stress or lack of personal fulfillment to regret ([79:55]).
• Antinatalism as Nihilism:
  • Dasha and Anna distinguish between narcissism and genuine social myopia, noting that previous generations endured much worse without such existential despair ([77:00]).

Notable Quotes:

• “Everything that people have survived... even if they weren’t great parents or didn’t like being parents, didn’t matter because they believed... life would find a way.” – Anna ([78:25])
• “Losing your identity is a polite euphemism for having children reveal what socioeconomic class you really belong to.” – Dasha ([74:21])
• “Their house is cold and they can take a nap whenever they want, but for what?” – Anna ([86:00])

Memorable Moments:

• Sarcastic contrast: “Imagine showing a woman in Iran this article—Women in America regret having children. And, like, we might kill your kids” ([94:44]).
• Anna describes parenting as “gratifying in the long run, but... not in the short run. Not because children are annoying, but because you fail a lot as a parent” ([83:24]).
• Broader critique of millennial expectation that life must always be personally gratifying ([90:00]).

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5. Cynicism, Community, and the End of the Episode

Timestamps: 97:33–102:20

Key Discussion Points:

• Losing Perspective:
  • The hosts reflect on nostalgia, the inability to live in the moment, and the changing meaning of “identity” as one ages ([99:10]).
  • Anna on the pain and complexity of watching one’s child grow up, as the chaos of the wider world seems to impinge on domestic happiness ([97:39]).
• On the State of the Discourse:
  • The article discourse is meant to create internet “wars” and performative outrage (“that’s how you get the clicks, baby” — Dasha [91:38]).
  • The hosts dismiss “heritage” gatekeepers online, questioning the utility of heritage appeals when duty and honor are lacking on every side ([90:27]).

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Tone & Style Notes

• The conversation is suffused with self-aware irony, gallows humor, and fatalism, but also frequent moments of genuine empathy—especially when discussing children or the pain of war.
• Despite their arch tone, both hosts repeatedly circle back to moral and existential stakes, particularly the futility and nihilism of the present, both online and off.

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Notable Quotes with Time Stamps

• “It’s a totally zogged war that no one wanted... that we didn’t vote for. It’s a betrayal.” – Anna ([03:23])
• “It does not feel like he’s made America great again. And I don’t want it to go out like this.” – Anna ([12:03])
• “If you’re gonna do something abroad, you better have a... good reason that benefits America. And this has none of that.” – Anna ([30:51])
• “She’s not beating the bitch allegations by being a bitch about how she’s portrayed on the show.” – Anna ([44:29])
• “Everything that people have survived... even if they weren’t great parents or didn’t like being parents, didn’t matter because they believed... life would find a way.” – Anna ([78:25])
• “Their house is cold and they can take a nap whenever they want, but for what?” – Anna ([86:00])

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Key Timestamps

• 00:29–06:13: Setting context, war with Iran, media reactions.
• 07:05–10:43: Editorial perspectives (Sullivan, Soldo), Ayatollah assassination, school bombing.
• 12:03–18:34: Trump’s record, MAGA’s crisis of belief.
• 31:09–59:50: ‘Love Story’, pop culture disillusionment, Daryl Hannah controversy.
• 64:05–97:33: Motherhood regret articles, critiques of contemporary feminism, societal atomization.
• 97:33–102:20: Nostalgia, identity, personal reflections, end of episode.

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Summary for New Listeners

This wide-ranging episode exemplifies the unique Red Scare mix: an incisive, mournful indictment of geopolitical catastrophe; fragmented confidence in American politics; and wry, knowing takes on the psychic and cultural fallout now shaping American society. Darkly funny, unapologetically despairing, Anna and Dasha drift between the “global hell” of failed wars and the spiritual malaise of atomized, post-family existence—finding new ways to talk about old problems, and never letting the listener forget: no calamity, personal or political, goes uncritiqued.

Transcript

[A]

We're back.

[B]

Hey, we're back.

[A]

Yeah, it's been a little while because we've been foraging for docket items that aren't about Iran.

[B]

Yeah, we've been in Mercury retrograde big time. Worst Mercury retrograde ever for sure. I was told that this one was. Was about minor interpersonal and bureaucratic snafus, not war with Iran.

[A]

Oh, huge geopolitical Purim blood moon.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you kidding me?

[B]

Happy International Women's Day.

[A]

Americans, really. Some years I feel like people. I guess cuz no one cares about like feminism that much anymore. Yeah. But I feel like in years prior it was Americans were kind of talking about it more.

[B]

Yeah, it was.

[A]

And this year it seems ghettoized in the Russian American community once again. Yeah.

[B]

No one's really talking about it because we're at war with Iran, so.

[A]

Right. There's other things going on.

[B]

Yeah. Well it did coincide this year with Titsmas because the weather finally flipped and we had one nice day.

[A]

Well, it's kind of.

[B]

The girls were out in full effect.

[A]

It's a. I associate it with springtime.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In general. So it's nice. Yeah. When it, when it lines up like that, the flowers and everything.

[B]

We're liberating the women of Iran from

[A]

they hijabs so they can go on. Only fans, so they can get some real jobs. I have been off of X for lens. For lens. I went on today on my laptop and so kind of when the war started, I was sort of like absorbing the news more ambiently.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Kind of normie style. Right. And then today I did the doom. So scroll.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it. Well, you saw his son. So we killed the Ayatollah, we attacked Iran for Israel and everyone knows it. And then Rubio admitted it and then like tried to roll it back in this bizarre way.

[B]

Wait, did he try to roll it back?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When.

[A]

Or like Trump did and then. Or Netanyahu then was like, he like he was like imagine trying to force Donald Trump to do something. The like anti Semitism criers are like, you know, saying that's like conspiratorial to imply that like it's a ZOG war.

[B]

It's a totally zogged war

[A]

that no one wanted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That we didn't vote for. It's a betrayal.

[B]

Yeah. And even if like

[A]

Nick Fuente has

[B]

vindicated, I mean even if it's true that it's not exactly like it's totally out of left field because Trump does like have a history with Iran. Like he took out Soleimani in 2020. He struck the nuclear facilities last year,

[A]

but he did that for Israel, too.

[B]

Unprecedented.

[A]

Yeah, but this is really full on.

[B]

And, you know, initially I was trying to not be a doomer and look on the bright side, because I. I was thinking, like, okay, we shouldn't really use past historical examples because Trump is like a new type of leader.

[A]

What? I mean, with destabilizing the Middle East, Anna.

[B]

But, like, they were projecting that it would last at least until into September.

[A]

No, it looks really bad. It's really bad.

[B]

When even Howling Mutant has his doubts, you know, it's bad.

[A]

I mean, there's only so much plan trusting that I can do. Yeah.

[B]

And I want to be, like, reasonable and cautious and maybe there's something I'm not seeing, but I don't know.

[A]

I don't see any. It's already bad.

[B]

I've tried to, like, stay off of social media because there's just like, so much chaos and paranoia and acrimony. And it's like half of the TL are like war hawks chest thumping over how, like, Trump can do no wrong, and the other half are former hardcore Trump loyalists saying that they're now voting Democrat and it's over and everything just feels really rotten.

[A]

I mean, it's over, but it's not like we can vote for Trump again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I don't see the utility in, like, you know, keeping up the charade. Like, you can just call a spade a spade. We're taking a massive L here.

[B]

Yeah. There seems to be, like, no real unified messaging on, you know, the purpose and objectives of this war. Like, Marco Rubio is basically blaming Israel in a way that doesn't make the U.S. look very good. J.D. vance is silent. Hegseth is like, all in.

[A]

Hexath's being a psycho.

[B]

You know, we're hearing how people in the Trump inner circle are at each other's throats.

[A]

Well, there's no pretense of regime change. There's no, like, WMDs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's. Iran doesn't really pose a threat to us. Plus, we bombed the bunker not even that long ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We busted up their nuclear facilities. So they're already, like, weak. Right. And now we're lashing out against them again. And I think it's because Israel is so unpopular that, like, they're just taking their. They're taking advantage of it while they can while they have, like, America under their control.

[B]

Yeah. And like, there. The two articles that I read about it that I liked were by Andrew Sullivan and Nicolo Soldo and they were kind of more or less opposed, but both made some good points. Andrew Sullivan says the war the Israelis want is therefore not a war to make the Middle East a new free zone, which might be a legit US aim. It's a war to ensure Israeli nuclear exclusivity in the region, allowing them to routinely attack their neighbors with relative impunity. And he's really mad that this is. That this war is like a betrayal of the interests of the American public.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that you get called an anti Semite for even saying so. And I thought he was correct in pointing out that, like, the under 40s and the non whites are not going to be swayed by like Mike Huckabee or Lindsey Graham in the way that like, who is going to be.

[A]

I mean.

[B]

And then Nicolo, on the other hand, has an interesting take in that. He points out that the aims of the US and Israel aren't exactly aligned and may even be at odds.

[A]

How so?

[B]

He says this represents an immense risk to the global economy in the form of an oil shock. Inflation is a delicate point for Trump, but Israel is willing to risk it for its own objectives, meaning that it is more than happy to sacrifice Donald Trump in pursuit of its own aims. Is the American public cognizant of this fact? And his take on it is that unlike many voices critical of the history of the US presence in the Middle east, he doesn't view Israel as the key driver of American actions in the region. Though he says it's dishonest to negate, minimize, or even downplay the massive amount of influence Israel and its American supporters have on U.S. foreign policy.

[A]

I mean, it certainly seems massive. Yeah, I get. Yeah, it's like more multifaceted.

[B]

He's.

[A]

How there's no reason. There's no real reason.

[B]

Well, I think he's like, persuaded by the argument that there's like a more 4D chess element that the US is trying to like, strategically choke off China's oil supply.

[A]

No way.

[B]

I.

[A]

It doesn't even make sense.

[B]

I'm gonna be honest. I just like, am not qualified to speak on this or informed enough to speak on it. So I'm gonna take the L and like, stay out of it.

[A]

I'm worried about the Strait of Hormuz and I. And I feel they the new ayatollahs. The guy we killed son. And that makes me wanna.

[B]

That's like family was killed. We just murdered his dad and his wife.

[A]

And he's way young. Oh my.

[B]

It makes me apparently even more Of a hardliner. Yeah.

[A]

It makes me. Of course. And he's. It makes me want to have a heart attack, like, when I think about it, and it's so. It's just so vile. And.

[B]

And of course, there was the strike on the school in Minob where like, 160 school girls age 7 to 12 were killed.

[A]

The little boy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Waving goodbye to his mom.

[B]

And originally that was. Well, originally that was blamed on Israel, and then the Americans blamed it on Iran, and now it turns out that it's most likely the Americans fault, and they struck the school not once, but twice.

[A]

Oh, it's so savage. It's so upsetting. It's so, like. Because what I liked about Trump was that he made me feel patriotic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And when I feel, like, ashamed and not even sovereign, you know, like, we're doing it for another country. Yeah. All this. Yeah. I don't feel. That doesn't make me feel patriotic.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And as. As Monica said, you know, nothing that Trump achieved in his. His two terms will really matter if his legacy is tarnished by a long and costly war. I think it's even worse than that. It's not just that his legacy will be tarnished. And as much as I like Trump, I don't really care so much about his legacy. It's that his achievements will ultimately be for. Not, you know, like, you have this, like, historic opportunity to. To roll back some of, like.

[A]

I mean, he hasn't even accomplished that much. Let's be real. He.

[B]

He's accomplished some really serious things, I think, in terms of, like, rolling back, like, decades of progressive governance or even making it a possibility and feel that way. I would hate to see that squandered in, like, the final hour.

[A]

It does not feel like he's made America great again. And I don't want it to go out like this, but it definitely seems like it's.

[B]

It is real Mercury retrograde hours. I mean, yeah. Like, okay, he's seen a lot of success in sealing the border, posing a challenge to the government and academic bureaucracies, standing down some of the cultural excesses of race and gender insanity.

[A]

But the culture was not worth it if we're at war with Iran and if we're in a Zionist occupied government. Anna, It's not worth it for zog War.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It just doesn't. Because the war, it's gonna. Oil is gonna get super expensive. Like, it's apocalyptic. It really is. It's so bad.

[B]

You realize that that's gonna have, like, all these, like, second and Third order effects on like travel routes and supply chains. Yeah, it feel.

[A]

And I like Iranians.

[B]

Me too. Well, that's the other thing. I'm a big Persia head.

[A]

They're a noble. And like, they remind me because I. So I watched the Anthony Bourdain episode where he goes to Iran and then I watched a bunch of like 60 Minutes interviews from like the hostage crisis and then like with the Shah a little bit before the revolution. Yeah. Just to get up because I really am not. I'm like Ted Cruz, like how much I don't know anything about. So I'm just trying to catch a, you know, catch a vibe. And they remind me of Russians because they're like oppressed, soulful. They went from serfs to living as like subjects of like a brutal ideological regime and. But they have like their dignity and they're like, they just.

[B]

The kebabs look great.

[A]

It just seems like it's so. It's such a. It's.

[B]

I'm just not convinced by the claim that Iran is like the number one global sponsor of terror because obviously they pioneered maybe like suicide bombings or their proxies did, but like the vast majority of worldwide terrorism is committed by Sunnis, not Shias.

[A]

It's coming about Israel and false flag attacks, Anna.

[B]

And I don't want like, again, I'm, I'm a fan and supporter of the Iranian people. I don't really even care to go down that road, even though I do feel for them and sympathize with them because I'm more concerned about like the American people and how this will blow back on them. And you know, it is ironic that Trump not only ran on an anti war platform, but also on an anti immigration platform. And this could just unleash a new and unforeseen like, refugee crisis that Iran from the Middle east in general that the, that America and Europe are going to have to absorb.

[A]

I wouldn't mind some more Iranians over here, honestly. They seem discreet and kind.

[B]

I mean, not when their populace has been terrorized and they're youth has been radicalized.

[A]

I mean, they're all pretty much against the Ayatollah.

[B]

Yeah, of course they want, they just. There's no doubt that like, they just

[A]

want to live their life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Pete Hagseth wants them all to die.

[B]

It's. Yeah. And like, yeah. Like Lindsey Graham is going around saying, like, oh, we're gonna blow them to smithereens. Why? I do think that like, while Iran does not pose a direct threat to the US they do pose a direct threat to Israel.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which again, really seems like what it's all about for sure. And yeah, there's, there's going to come a point if, if it hasn't already, where like just US and Israeli interests objectives collide.

[A]

Well, they're all I saw. The US is pissed because Israel bombed some like, oil storage facilities and now there's like toxic rain. But it's there, it's, it's a mess. Yeah, it's really depressing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yeah, the timelines, it's. I'm not happy with my logging on today.

[B]

Yeah. I'm like gonna stay off of Twitter. And like there was that video going around of Curtis Yarvin giving some interview that he's getting a lot of flack for. People are calling him like a doomer and defeatist and demoralizer, subversive Jew where he talks about like, oh, you think mass immigration is bad already? You don't know what mass immigration is going to look like. I'm like a single issue voter in this sense. Like, my issue is mass immigration. I think that like what's at stake is Western civilization and he's just telling it like it is. I don't think that he's being like,

[A]

I didn't see the clip.

[B]

Yeah. But he's just spitting facts.

[A]

But that sounds true, I guess. But honestly, I voted for Trump. I wanted the Ukraine war to end.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I voted for America first.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't, I didn't vote for a war in the Middle East.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I didn't think that. I wasn't holding Trump to some like, purists.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Isolationist, like. But can we circle back to Greenland? Can we like, get back, like, do that instead?

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

let's get back to annexing Greenland instead of carpet bombing Tehran. Yeah. Oh, it feels. I mean, I wasn't super sentient during the Iraq war.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it seems worse.

[B]

I don't know about that. I mean, it's too soon to say,

[A]

but I don't mean durationally. I just mean like, you know, everyone knew the WMDs were fake, I guess. Yeah. There was still like a pretense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I felt at least like the neocons of the Bush era still felt a need to like, justify themselves, which

[B]

seems to be like all this gobbledygook about spreading. Spreading democracy unknowns.

[A]

Like they had, at least they had like a noble lie. And we don't even have that. We don't have nothing. We have no reason to be there except Israel and no One likes that.

[B]

Yeah. And I. Israel at this point in time is probably the most isolated and disliked globally than it's ever been.

[A]

Yeah. It's their last ditch effort.

[B]

And BB's rabid. Yeah. And it. They, they seem to be facing a pretty uncertain future. I guess this is good for them in the short run, but maybe not so good for them in the long run.

[A]

They worship death. So. Foreign. Because I'm so emotional, you know, I'm, I'm so easily like disappointed or radical, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, It's just too hard.

[B]

Yeah. And I saw somebody talking about how they were previously miffed at Michael Tracy for refusing to take aside and being a nonpartisan, but increasingly his POV is looking like it's the right one.

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

Like, because, you know, he's not beholden to anyone and the right accuses him of being like a leftist and the left accuses him of being like a fascist.

[A]

I mean. Yeah. You just can't trust politicians.

[B]

Well, yeah, that goes without saying.

[A]

But, but I did have trust in Trump. I saw a clip of Alex Jones getting almost. He was like crying.

[B]

What is his take in all of this?

[A]

Well, now he's saying that Trump's being manipulated. He's kind of like doing more of a schizo cope where like the deep state is misleading him. But yeah, he was just kind of like, I needed this. I believed in maga. Yeah. Like, I just feel so betrayed, basically.

[B]

What's Tucker on about? I haven't been following along with that.

[A]

He had Sagger. Yeah. He's, you know, he's anti. Anti Zog.

[B]

Yeah. He's at odds with Trump right now. That's all I know. He's been kicked out of maga.

[A]

Trump said he's not even maga. But I feel like Trump's not maga.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, unless, like, I'm not seeing something and there's like some long game that we as mirror civilians are not like, privy to.

[A]

I'm sure there is, but it doesn't justify already this level of like, waste, dysfunction, carnage. Yeah. Suffering. And it's going to reverberate. You know, it's like every day that it goes on, it's like, of course.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Gets worse.

[B]

Yeah. I saw a clip of Steve Bannon on the War Room and he said, I'm not a wildly enthusiastic supporter of this war. If Iran ends up being a chaotic mess, I don't care. We have 25 million illegal aliens here. Trump talks about a World War II style happy ending Israelis don't want that. They'd much rather have a mass in Iran. I guess I more or less sympathize with that position.

[A]

I mean, yeah, Trump's, like, actual deportation numbers are on par with like, Obama's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, we can get an old. We can get a Democrat that's moderate on immigration and accomplish the same thing.

[B]

That's the thing. I don't even know about that because, like, you know, the, the gripers are doing their usual bit about how they're voting Democrat now and all that. But like, I don't think we even need to get to that point because if Trump has already lost the confidence

[A]

of the base, well, Trump can't run again.

[B]

Right. But I'm saying this, this puts like, the succession of MAGA under threat and probably puts the ball in the court of the Democrats for the next few terms.

[A]

I think that might have happened anyway, honestly, because he doesn't really have a good successor. Exactly. But it's a long. People talk about new scum and stuff. It's like three, It's. There are three more years and a lot can change.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, mostly things don't change, but then they do. And like, you have to kind of do think about the gestalt of things. I probably just won't vote because I wasn't really much of a voter before and if I don't feel like really animated to, I don't see the point.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that's a reasonable position, but it's also like a very depressing position. I'm.

[A]

I mean, did you vote for anyone besides Trump

[B]

in the last election? Yeah, I, I typically just vote like Republican down ticket now. I mean, they're all bad. You know, I'm not like a.

[A]

But in like a. When's the last. What's the last president you voted for?

[B]

Trump.

[A]

But before that,

[B]

the previous one, I voted third party or independent. I didn't vote for Trump in 2016.

[A]

I didn't vote. See, I haven't voted at all. I didn't vote in 2021 or whatever. The last 2020.

[B]

Oh, in 2020, I've never voted. So in 2020, I voted for Trump in 20. Yeah.

[A]

I can't remember if I did in 2020. Actually. My point is it wasn't a priority for me and it's probably just going to not be one again. And now that Trump's not, you know, not. I shouldn't say now because already he couldn't have ran again.

[B]

But

[A]

it's not, It's. We can't replicate that kind of thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That kind of lightning in a bottle quality.

[B]

Like, I knew that that was going to be the case and whoever the Republican successor to Trump was would be like less of a firebrand, less of like, like a man of history or whatever. But like, I wasn't expecting like a Trumpian Reich, but I was hoping that they would put down roots to at least try to secure, to ensure the health and longevity of the MAGA movement.

[A]

Right. I mean, we'll see. But like I said, there's only. You can only do so much plan trusting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yeah, like, of course I have trust in the ultimate plan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Broadly speaking,

[B]

in God's plan.

[A]

That's what I mean. But in the short term, it does seem bleak, but.

[B]

Well, it just seems that whatever you or I may think that there has been a lot of confidence lost in the MAGA movement and can you really blame people? Even as you know, again, Michael Tracy has been pretty like bellicose, belligerent on this and he has been like contrarianly pushing back on the people who say that Trump betrayed his base with this action by saying that like, actually he's always, he's, he's always toyed with this idea, more or less.

[A]

Cuz he says all sorts of things. There's all, you know, there's also clips of him. It's. I get it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We have some him saying at some point, like, I'm going to, I'm going to obliterate them or whatever. Like years ago. Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We didn't think he was going to do it. Yeah.

[B]

And now people are kind of like teasing the idea that he might be thinking of like dropping a nuke on the asses, which I don't really think it'll lead to that, but, you know, there is a non zero chance that would be devastating.

[A]

I still get upset about Hiroshima. Honestly I do. Nagasaki.

[B]

I get sad.

[A]

I think about the loss. And just like the bomb is so. You're like, oh, it's so like, it is satanic.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

It's just like an instrument of like total death. There's something so like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Luciferian about it that like, does, you know, Oppenheimer's like, it doesn't seem like it should even exist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the fact that we've ever used it, I feel like, is a stain on our history. And to use it again for no reason would be like, tragic.

[B]

Yeah. And like, you know, as, as Nicolo pointed out, like, if you strip away the, the moral aspect and the domestic considerations and look at it objectively. And by the way, he's not a fan of this war that it's the best time to hit Iran because they're. Because we've already stable, degraded their nuclear. Yes, sure, duh. But then I don't really like the messaging is very confused because. Because if they don't exactly pose a threat, then why strike them if not to destroy Israel?

[A]

For Israel, 100%. I don't know how anyone can even deny that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I was like barely even looking at the news, I was like, really? Israel? Yeah. It just is like the Occam's razor. You don't have to like contort yourself into something about like China's oil supply or whatever. It's not that it's Israel.

[B]

Yeah. I don't. I mean I'm. I guess I'm prepared to, to stay open minded and like consider the idea that there are other considerations at play.

[A]

But I mean I'm all, you know, I respond to information as I get it. So this is the information I have.

[B]

And like the other thing, like, like I said to you girls, like, as a woman and a mother, I'm very easily propagandized by the deaths of children. I mean it really like breaks my heart. And it would be nice, of course, if the administration could fess up to the school incident and not try to save face. But of course they won't.

[A]

But why even it's already so unpopular. You may as well. But I get it. It's all, it's all built on lies. Yeah.

[B]

And I think like you can say that in any war there are going to be extremely unfortunate civilian casualties of women and children and other innocence.

[A]

Yeah. War is hell. That's why civilized societies try not to wage it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yeah, it is like, I got. I understand Nicola's point how strategically it's a good time to strike Iran if you want to strike Iran. But the problem is no one wants to strike Iran. Yeah.

[B]

And I, I'm also sympathetic to the point that it's much harder to get things done domestically than it is internationally because you're like curbed by all sorts of like internal.

[A]

I'm not oppositioning to that point at all because the. Why are you a comp. Like what are you accomplishing abroad?

[B]

Yeah, but just you're.

[A]

There's no point in just doing something because you can.

[B]

Yeah. But my feeling is because you can't

[A]

do something at home, you should try harder to do something at home.

[B]

Well, yeah. If you're gonna go big or Go home. Try to do something at home versus abroad.

[A]

And if you're gonna do something abroad, you better have a. You should have a good reason that benefits America. And this has none of that.

[B]

Yep. You see.

[A]

Been watching Love Story.

[B]

Yeah. My personal Iran is Ryan Murphy's Love Story.

[A]

You don't like it.

[B]

No. I agree with you that it's, like, mid but watchable.

[A]

I'm. Well, the more you watch something, the better it gets.

[B]

Because of the time Stockholm Syndrome. Yeah.

[A]

Time Sunk Fallacy, it's called. And I'm watching. I watch the whole thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or like, as it's coming out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So now I'm gripped. Now I'm like. It's an atmospheric masterpiece. And in our, like, like, zombie, backwards, stagnant culture, we get to watch this, like, dead people porno.

[B]

Yeah. Which is what it is. We get to watch these corpses recreate

[A]

the paparazzi photos that we know and love. I love that.

[B]

It is like, a void porn slob.

[A]

It's better than slob. It gets like the pilot. I think it's not fair to judge the merits of a show on.

[B]

Yeah. I agree with you. Like, we watched that, like, segment of, like, Maureen Callahan and Megyn Kelly where she was railing against the expository dialogue.

[A]

Who is that lady? Why? What's going. Why does she hate Carolyn Bessette Kennedy so much?

[B]

I don't know. Good question.

[A]

Like, what is going on? Because I sent you today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She wrote an article. Because there have been. It's been a real, like, cultural flash point that's like, sparked all these, like. They had, like, a JFK junior lookalike contest in the park today.

[B]

Did they?

[A]

In New York?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah. Maureen Callahan in the Daily Mail wrote the real Carolyn Bessette was a violent, deeply disturbed cokehead with a humiliation fetish. The lies must stop. Her friends are telling the truth and it's ugly. And then her friends aren't really. There's no tea really spilled in the article.

[B]

She didn't have any friends.

[A]

She didn't have enough friends. Yeah.

[B]

She says if the truth about her were more widely told, more commonly known and accepted, no woman in her right mind would idolize her. That's not true. She is what modern women idolize.

[A]

She's a volatile people with a humiliation fetish.

[B]

Yeah. People like that. She beat up her boyfriend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And got multiple abortions. It's not her classic minimalist style.

[A]

It's not the tortoiseshell headband.

[B]

Yeah. And her perfectly platinum blonde hair in his now out of print Memoir. Carolyn's ex boyfriend, Calvin Klein model Michael Bergen, writes that Bassett had two abortions, both babies. His confessed that she lost a third pregnancy while dating JFK Jr. She was selfish. She went after her close friend's boyfriend. She told a CK colleague who worshiped her to dump an otherwise great boyfriend because he didn't make enough money. Her mantra was date them, train them, dump them. Beside.

[A]

Which is in the show, by the way.

[B]

She dated before JFK Jr. A working actor whose brother went on to television fame, to dinner with her friends where she would proceed to mock him to his face for being so besotted with her.

[A]

Did you see. Did you get to the episode yet where he gets the letter?

[B]

No.

[A]

So he's out playing football with his boys, and then when he gets home, there's a letter, anonymously penned letter in a duffel bag about, like, basically that Marine. Marine's article about how she's like a conniving. And he, like, shows it to her and then she freaks out and she's like, how could you believe this about me? Totally flips the script. He's like, baby, I'm so sorry.

[B]

I made a mistake.

[A]

She starts, like, ignoring him, icing him. He's sending her flowers. He's chasing her. She won in the end. Except she tragically died.

[B]

Yes. Which is a sort of winning of its own. I mean, I think, you know, the most romantic thing about CBK and JFK Jr. Was that they died tragically in a fiery plane crash when they were young and beautiful.

[A]

They would have been so embarrassing. She probably would have stayed kind of icy and cool. Yeah, she probably would have forayed into politics and, like, you know, he's. They're better preserved in amber the way they are.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. She would have, like, tried to have some kids with IVF when she was, like, 43 years old.

[A]

I bet she didn't abort his baby.

[B]

Yeah. Who knows? It's all, like, hearsay because the Kenny,

[A]

she's got a heir to the Kennedy fortune. Yeah.

[B]

Maureen Callahan. Yeah. Really, really, really, really took a hating to the dialogue. The. Because it was. Yeah. Like, really, like, on the nose and unsophisticated. Which, you know, as you and others have pointed out, is kind of what you have to do in a pilot episode to establish, like, the characters and the pacing. There's like, a point.

[A]

Episode one of the Sopranos, it's Tony being like, I'm run the Mafia.

[B]

I'm the underboss of the New Jersey mob. And I answer to.

[A]

And you're my therapist, Dr. Melfi.

[B]

There's like some point where some. I forgot who the character was, but he says, like, they said the same shit when your father appointed me U.S. attorney of the Southern District 30 years ago.

[A]

It's good. It's good to know what's going on, you know?

[B]

Yeah. I don't. That really didn't like, stick in my cross so much. I kind of like accepted it as a effect.

[A]

Yeah. We're setting the scene.

[B]

Yeah. I think. What. I don't know if this bothered me, but it dawned on me that this series, and maybe just like Ryan Murphy's work in general, is like a great example of that famous untranslatable Russian word bush list, which means like, pretentious vulgarity, basically. Yeah.

[A]

But that's what's good about it.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

It's got like a classy veneer, but it is still kind of like tabloid oriented.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's got the great, you know, New York in the 90s. It's just a fun, like, atmosphere.

[B]

Well, the vulgar part for me was that a lot of that like, like set design, scene design, costume design, etc, didn't really land because it looked way too contemporary. Like the city looks like it does now. More or less.

[A]

I thought it did. They did a good enough job maybe.

[B]

Yeah. The. The outfits. His were better than hers. But it dawned on me like the, like, the styling and the proportions were off. Like her cloth was a little bit too tight and a little bit too tacky.

[A]

It's not like perfect.

[B]

It was very Aritzia coated a little

[A]

bit, but not as bad as the. The bar was set really low when they put out those, like, press photos that we talked about. Yeah. On a prior episode. But there is, It's.

[B]

It.

[A]

It does feel to me like a testament to how like there was something special about them that can't be replicated. Like you can make the exact same dress. The wedding. I'm talking about the wedding dress goes the last episode. But. And like. Yeah. With like the candlelight, it almost kind of looks like her in a moment. But then. Yeah. And the photos are well done enough. But they're the. There's an episode where they get in the fight in the park. Right.

[B]

The famous paparazzi shots.

[A]

And I thought Sarah Pigeon did a lot of really good hair acting where she's like, putting in a ponytail, taking it down, fighting, but like messing with her hair the whole time so that it's like. Because. Yeah. When in those photos, like, she's hugging in ponytail, they're in the park. It's down, like, just pragmatically, she must have been doing something like that. Like, I think she does have her mannerisms down pretty well.

[B]

Yeah, I would agree with that.

[A]

And so it kind of gives it impression.

[B]

She's like a. For effort. She's trying, but the real thing is just.

[A]

It's never gonna be that good.

[B]

Yeah. And you can expect that. And you almost can't fault any, like, Modern Recreation for that because there's just, like, some stuff that's, like, intangible. Lost in Translation, whatever.

[A]

But there's a platonic ideal. And this is, like, striving towards.

[B]

Yeah. And this is, like a cheap facsimile, but it's, like, fun and watchable and whatever. The casting, I think, didn't land for me. It's funny that the actress's name is Sarah Pigeon. Nominal determinism.

[A]

She's got a kind of a bird. Like.

[B]

Yeah, she's. She's like, I guess, very pretty and symmetrical, but her features are almost, like, too bland and delicate and gray. She's like a pigeon. She's like a hot. Like, she's like every hot girl that you see in the Easter West Village. And he's like every hot guy that you see in the Easter West Village. They're like a West Village couple.

[A]

He's hot. He looked gay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which, you know, but neither of them

[B]

is as magnetically attractive as the original. They're just not.

[A]

No, I agree. Carolyn. And I think she does a good job. You know, I. I do think she's well cast, but.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Like, an actor is basically never gonna have the charisma of, like, a real charismatic person because they lack a. The thing that made Carolyn special was her, like, intact sense of self that

[B]

she projected, which was, like, entirely false and fabricated because apparently she was, like, a domineering, insecure co.

[A]

This show does portray her in an extremely positive light. And I know. I know this wasn't like that.

[B]

Yeah. As a super, like, cool, composed boss bitch who knew what she wanted and got it. There's a really funny part where she rises through the ranks of the Calvin Klein management and is almost solely responsible for discovering Kate Moss. She's like, is this. This is the reject pile. Like, they're looking through model photos and they're, like, contemplating, like, Cindy Crawford or something.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And she's like, it's her. We need her. And it's like a black and white, like, headshot of Kate Moss. Yeah.

[A]

But that. Is that not true?

[B]

I don't think it Happened.

[A]

I didn't. I didn't fact check that one. But, yeah, there's a lot. So Daryl Hannah wrote a little op Ed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the Times of lamenting how poorly she's portrayed in the show. Dre Hemingway plays it. I thought she was.

[B]

She was amazing. I was. She was good by her performance.

[A]

I was like, is. I was like, did they, like, de agify Daryl Hannah?

[B]

I was like, she. She looks just like her. She was incredible.

[A]

Compared to everybody else, she's fantastic.

[B]

But yeah, she really nailed, like, the Spur

[A]

and this kind of, like, needling, actressy person. Just like John. Like, really, really good. But yeah, not kind of the. A villain on the show.

[B]

Yeah. Which is understandable. Daryl Hannah had a real problem with that, but obviously because claims she received threatening messages.

[A]

No, you didn't.

[B]

No, you didn't.

[A]

How. Who's getting in touch with you?

[B]

Like, who's thinking of you?

[A]

If I tried to send you a message, I wouldn't know how to find you. Like, who is threatening you?

[B]

Yeah, she. She's basically upset about her portrayal in the series because she's portrayed as, like, this bratty, stuck up, self absorbed, whiny cokehead who's, like, throwing parties in his loft. And he's upset because she's inviting all sorts of, like, strangers and never do wells into his inner sanctum to blow lines off of his family heirlooms. And while I can sympathize with her for, you know, feeling, like, jilted and blindsided, it's a really bizarre thing to react to, especially given her age and her intelligence at this point. Supposedly.

[A]

I get it, like, you want to

[B]

set the record straight, but she's doing herself no favors. She's like, really, you know, not getting ahead of any of the rumors.

[A]

She's not beating the bitch allegations by being a bitch about how she's portrayed on the show, which I get. Like, yeah, I'm higher IQ than some people, so I can watch a show and be like, this is, you know,

[B]

a fictional narrativization, a dramatization of the real life events as they occurred.

[A]

I, like, understand intellectually that Daryl Hannah wasn't, like, a villainous person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That she's meant to be like, a foil to Carolyn.

[B]

And she's smart enough to realize that herself. In that essay, she says, storytelling requires tension. It often requires an obstacle. But a real living person is not a narrative device. There is also a gendered dimension to this thinking. Popular culture has long elevated certain women by portraying others as rivals, obstacles, or villains. Isn't it textbook misogyny to tear one woman down in order to build up another kind of.

[A]

No, it's textbook symbol, like screenwriting.

[B]

Yes. I don't. To take the gender out of it.

[A]

It's not about that.

[B]

Yeah, they obviously. Yes. They want to give you a positive account of Carolyn Bassette. So they have to create some negative foils which may or may not be JFK's prior romantic conquests. Yeah. No, it's really nothing personal. Move along.

[A]

But again, I get it. Maybe, you know,

[B]

understand why she would be like.

[A]

And she's allowed. They did, you know, fictionalizer in this show in a light that she didn't like. And.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so she does get to say her piece.

[B]

I mean, it is funny how she was diagnosed with autism, which I guess she walked back later. But, like, she's clearly like not a real autist. She's stealing Autism Valor because real autists like Michael Tracy don't give a shit about how they're portrayed in the media.

[A]

So true.

[B]

Anna.

[A]

Such a good take.

[B]

What are you talking about?

[A]

A real autist would never write an

[B]

article like that about all the chair.

[A]

How they don't do cocaine and do charity.

[B]

Instead, they would be on Twitter writing threads about how a regime change is not an adequate explanation for what's going on in the Middle East.

[A]

And then Jack Schlossberg keeps making statements

[B]

about how much like, he's his uncle, he's a huge drama queen who courts the paparazzi. What did he say? I didn't read that article.

[A]

He said a bunch of stuff. Like he's been chiming in about how it's like grotesque and exploitative and how like, this is his family and stuff. And.

[B]

Well, it is grotesque and exploitative, but so is your family, by the way.

[A]

And that's like, the show is kind of about that. It's about how the Kennedys, like, don't belong to themselves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so you have to just let us have it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Camelot isn't, you know, and you're like such a low tier Kennedy.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

I think I said this in the group chat, but what's crazy about the Riz levels of JFK Jr and CBK is that they already were like Nepo.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then like this new crop of Kennedys, I guess, just Jack Schlossberg, like the way the Riz just drops off so quick.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You had JFK then JFK Jr not as, you know, not presidential, but hotter. Like, you know, had his own thing going on then you Have Jack Schlossberg tick tocker.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like not just bringing nothing to the table.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And has that, like, crisis actor barely. If that Gersh client.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

That makes one of us.

[B]

Yeah, I guess. On that note, my. My big issue with, like, the dialogue wasn't the exposition, which is forgivable enough. It was like this very, like, sinister homosexual coded thing where like, the characters are constantly discussing their romantic prospects, which doesn't happen in real life. And also their media portrayals, which also, I think doesn't really happen.

[A]

I think it does if you're hounded by paparazzi.

[B]

Sure. But I doubt, like, like there's a scene in. In a Garden where Jackie O and JFK Jr are like, having this, like, in depth conversation about what kind of woman he can hope to get given his reputation, especially Jack.

[A]

You'll always be a Kennedy.

[B]

Yeah. And her, like, weird, warbly voice, that was like the worst casting by far. Naomi Watts. I like.

[A]

I like to see her.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Happy she's getting the work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know.

[B]

You know who else is pretty good? It's the. The Meryl Streep daughter, Mamie Gunner as

[A]

Caroline.

[B]

Caroline. Yeah.

[A]

She's really.

[B]

She's good. Yeah.

[A]

Honestly, I would if I were you.

[B]

She looked the part.

[A]

Keep watching the show. The fight in the park. Awesome. The wedding. But I. I'm not even such a massive, like, CBK fan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I like her. I think she's stylish.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But all the fanfare that's, like, sprung up about. I feel like every article being written now, even in like, reputable outlets is like, how to dress like Carolyn Bessette Kennedy. And then like, looks maxing explained, like the incel. Like they're all like explainers about what mogging means or like, like slop about Carolyn Bessette Kennedy and like the New Yorker, like, like the tea. The bar is on the floor. It's like, really depressing.

[B]

I. I am like, ride or die, like, long term Carolyn Bessette fan.

[A]

I like her.

[B]

I've always liked her. I've always thought she was like, one of the most stylish and beautiful women alive. That's why I like her. I don't really care that she was a coke whore or a domestic abuser.

[A]

Like her more.

[B]

I don't, I don't. I don't find that element of her character, whether or not it's true, particularly attractive.

[A]

It doesn't matter.

[B]

But yeah.

[A]

But yeah, I don't like her for her moral qualities.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Her moral compass.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She wore Yoji And Polly. What do Polly? I call her like a prowling lioness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she really.

[B]

She does.

[A]

What is her sign?

[B]

She's a Capricorn.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

She says. She says it in the. Or her character says it in the show.

[A]

She could have been a Leo.

[B]

Yeah, he is. Helio, maybe.

[A]

She's probably got a Leo moon or rising or something.

[B]

She's like the. The feared female Capricorn.

[A]

Very powerful. Honestly. No, he's November 25th. That's also a cap or a sag.

[B]

A Scorpio or a Libra. I don't know.

[A]

God, it's crazy how much we talk about it. This and are bad at it.

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

I'm looking.

[B]

Yeah, the. The Daryl Hannah article was really outrageous because then she goes into.

[A]

He's a sag. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A sexy. A vagitarian. Sexy. Loves the finer things.

[B]

I think that actor's hot, adventurous, and

[A]

risk taking, even though he's clearly gay for pay, like every other actor.

[B]

But I like, don't. I don't love him because JFK Jr even though I guess if. If I were to psychoanalyze him, which I don't really care to do. He does seem like a shameless media. So the. The show's portrayal of him as the guy who's, like, on the fence about being publicly scrutinized seems like fake and gay because he clearly ate it up. And they both did. I think that was the nature of their union, was that they understood how hot they look together. They understood the power that they had over, like, the public consciousness and they, like, milked it for all it was worth, even as their relationship was falling apart at all times.

[A]

And so much of her mystique and revisionism, I guess, except for Maureen. What's her last name?

[B]

Callahan.

[A]

Yeah. She's like the Michael Tracy of Kennedy. She's carrying the torch.

[B]

Yeah. She's like when Michael Tracy lashes out at Whitney Webb, who I still. I don't really know who that is, but he really hates her and has, like, an ax to grind against her.

[A]

But I think it might have even been in Vogue. It was like some article that was like, how fashion is armor. Yeah. And, like, she gets really mystified as this kind of like, really discreet person. And, like, that's why she dressed like that, because she, like, didn't want to be seen. Yeah. And like, I think maybe she even believed that about herself. But she clearly. I wouldn't be surprised if she was a Leo Virgo cusp. Honestly, maybe because she's. I mean, She's a Capricorn, obviously, but I feel attacked. Well, you know what I mean? Like that tension of, like, wanting the discretion but then also wanting the attention.

[B]

Being a huge attention whore. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure she was very, like, plotting and calculating about how to. I mean, like, if she was truly,

[A]

truly private, she wouldn't have pursued that relationship.

[B]

Yeah. And Callahan claims that she essentially not. Not Daryl Hannah, but Carolyn Bessette really wormed her way into the Kennedy family mythos and like, sought him out and wanted to trap him into marriage again. I don't know how true this is, but it seems plausible.

[A]

I mean, I think there probably was genuine love between them.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I want to believe in a love story. Riley calls it the fighting show because there's always women yelling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, please, can we watch it? Like, doesn't know who Carolyn Besaka even is. Doesn't care.

[B]

But she. I mean, what's her background? She's like Connecticut. Connecticut Catholic. Who was a lower tier Nepo baby.

[A]

No. Or not even. Parents divorced.

[B]

I imagine, like upper middle class, but didn't really have a pedigree. Is that the idea? And wanted to catapult herself into the upper echelons of New York society because, you know, like, frankly, she understood that she was like a beautiful and stylish and intelligent woman. She knew that about herself and she wanted the best for herself, which wasn't.

[A]

I don't think she was as much of a fame whore as JFK Jr. Like, I think she. Yeah. Held herself in high esteem. Esteem.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. But was like in a very Capricornian way, kind of just maximizing her potential.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like she would have been content in another relationship. In another, you know, as long as it was like kind of the best outcome. Like, I do probably think she was pretty calculating.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure. And it's like.

[A]

But I don't think she like, had it in her mind the whole time that she was. Wanted to be famous or be part of like a political dynasty or anything like that. Yeah.

[B]

I think she was probably just like landing on her feet and like being antifragile and like exploiting leveraging the opportunities that became available to her if she went.

[A]

But she was like a shop girl.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Maybe that's not even. See, like, there is enough. Like, I am probably just going to internalize this show. Is true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, like, well, you know, Daryl Hannah showed up at Jackie Kennedy's awake

[B]

and was being a huge bitch. Well, that was like Daryl Hannah's big objection, because she's concerned that in the digital E. Entertainment and gossip become, quote, collective memory, because while physical media degrades, online lies endure. So true, Queen.

[A]

I mean, yeah. That's why I, like, can't begrudge her for wanting to at least, like, get some. It's. It's pr, you know, you, like, have to say something or else, like, the worst version just proliferates.

[B]

Yeah. But I think, like, she's also a little bit confused and lying to herself about what her real motivations are, because if she really didn't want this. This negative portrayal of her to persevere, she would have said nothing. Because realistically, the show is a blip on the radar and it's not gonna become, like, a timeless prestige drama. It's gonna be something that, like, people watch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The first three episodes of Love. Fun and enjoyable. Yeah. Like, nobody's gonna be. Nobody's thinking of Daryl Hannah in this equation. No, she's kind of like a side

[A]

note, I think, really, about Daryl Hannah.

[B]

What she's really offended about isn't that they portrayed her in a negative light. It's. It's that they didn't, like, include her enough and that she was kind of sidelined, probably.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's that great piece of dialogue where JFK Jr says, despite what you may think, mom, Daryl actually really cares what you think of her. And she responds like, well, she's an actress.

[A]

She cares what everyone thinks of her. Jack. So true. Which she clearly does because she wrote this little article.

[B]

Yeah. That's written in this, like, very, like, indignantly, but also, like, kind of sober and sedate tone. Like, she's taking great pains to not sound super, like, aggrieved and hysterical. She's trying to sound neutral and objective and make it about, like, the. The harms of like, digital media or something.

[A]

I know. She's like, talking to chat GPT and it's like, you're right, there is a gendered element just, like, affirming her.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't realize that Daryl Hannah was married to Neil Young and, like, stole him from his ex wife.

[A]

Well, in doing my.

[B]

Not very autistic of her.

[A]

Well, that's. This is the thing. I didn't know about Daryl Hannah until she wrote this article. And then I, like, looked her up and then someone on Reddit was like, Neil Young's wife of 30 plus years was, like, dying of cancer and he cheated on her with Daryl Hannah and now they're married and like, I'm like, That's now that's love, Ryan Murphy.

[B]

Let's go. Love Story 2.

[A]

Just totally eviscerate Darlhanna's character. Make a whole show about how she's a monster.

[B]

It ends with Neil Young Rage quitting Spotify because they platform Joe Rogan. And.

[A]

Yeah. And she's like a environmental activist.

[B]

She like. Yeah.

[A]

Lists all of her. Like, that part was so Causes.

[B]

Yeah. She. She says, for decades my work has focused on environmental advocacy, documentary filmmaking and animal assisted therapy for seniors living with dementia and Alzheimer's.

[A]

That's so. That reminds me of.

[B]

My professional life is built on compassion and responsibility.

[A]

The animal stuff is such a red flag. And reminds me of Nicola Pence, Brooklyn Beckham's wife. How she freaked out at Victoria Beckham for not helping her with her like dogs affected by wildfire business or whatever she was doing. Like whenever some like weird, tacky bitch is like, and I work with animals, you're like, yeah, okay. Because you like are horrible to people.

[B]

Yeah. You're losing. You're like literally like literal pet cause to. To brow beat and bully people into like acquiescing to your demands.

[A]

Yeah. It's like, what should I do with my life to seem like a good person? And then you're like, I like animals.

[B]

Reputation is not about ego. It is about the ability to continue doing the meaningful work I love. Like any career, doing good work requires an intact reputation. This is why I am choosing to stand up for myself now.

[A]

What work are you doing that's going to be compromised by Ryan Murphy's love story?

[B]

Yeah. And it's like, if you are truly an activist and advocate, then you should probably just allow your work to speak for itself and not complain about it in an op ed. All.

[A]

All true. But I gotta say again, I do get it. I'd probably do a similar thing.

[B]

I get it. Because I'm such a hypocrite. And every time somebody attacks me, I'm like, no, you don't understand.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I am trying to school people on the mechanisms of the narcissistic psychology which we are all gripped by. It is not a moral referendum. I get it.

[A]

Yeah, I get it. I'm like, I wasn't that bad at adult beginners tennis class.

[B]

By the.

[A]

That did that.

[B]

Really?

[A]

I hate that guy.

[B]

Wait, what? When the guy like wrote a tweet

[A]

about it was when I got dropped from Gersh, which I gotta stop talking about. Honestly. I swear, I'm not obsessed with them not coping. But when all the Nick Fuentes stuff Happened. Everyone was piling on me. And some gay guy who I was in a tennis class with was like. She was in my tennis class, my adult beginners tennis class. And she was the most uncoordinated woman in all of Manhattan. And then she never showed up again. And by the way, I didn't show up because that's when I went to the hospital with Hib. So it wasn't my fault. And I wasn't that bad in tennis class. Well, but this faggot, did you clock

[B]

him at the time?

[A]

Not as.

[B]

Did you know who he was?

[A]

I knew he was gay, so I figured he might have known who I was. But I thought it was all good. We were all just trying to learn how to play tennis. I don't know how to kick me when I'm already down.

[B]

I know. So true.

[A]

And I bet. Yeah. Watching it and seeing herself like, you know, she is portrayed really badly.

[B]

Yeah. But it's.

[A]

But I did divorce that in my mind. Like, I didn't, first of all. Yeah. Like you said. Completely forgot Daryl Hannah was in my character on the show. Moving on. Yeah. Trying to get to the tragic, fiery plane crash.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Don't care about Daryl Hannah. So. Didn't retain any of that. But when I was watching, it was

[B]

like, ooh, but I think. So messy. That's really what bothers her at the end of the day, that she's kind of an accessory, not the main attraction of the show.

[A]

Well, on that note, should we talk about the women who regret having children who also regret being accessories?

[B]

They're just like me. For real.

[A]

So this was a little while ago, but it was in the cut. There was an article.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was basically just kind of like anonymous testimony from women who regret having children.

[B]

Yeah. And it went from bad to worse because it starts off with. Well, there's three of them. Yeah. And here I'll give the little breakdowns. Did you notice that both that article, the cut I Regret having children, and the. What outlet was the how should a white woman writer be? Vulture. Vulture. Yeah. Okay, so this is all, like, under the auspices of New York Magazine. Both of the girls who wrote those articles have Indian names.

[A]

Well, the one who wrote the Vulture article is like some. She's Tamil, which is a kind of Indian.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she writes. She's written some books of her own that look like real, like, diaspora kind of garbage.

[B]

Diasporoid slop.

[A]

Yeah. But I was thinking we'll circle back to that. But how that chick is kind of like. It's funny because she's kind of like a Salman Rushdie type of. But she's putting the fatwa on Madeline

[B]

Cash

[A]

for being white and not deferential enough to identity grievance politics.

[B]

This is what you have to look forward to with the Iranian war. So there's three of them. I gave up everything I liked about my life to make children fit into it. A 34 year old Rhode island mom of a 6 year old and a 3 year old. Everyone who wanted me to have a child knew they weren't going to lose much while my freedom and identity went down the toilet. A 30 year old European mother of a 3 year old. Everything I went through was just like no big deal because the baby is here. Your existence doesn't matter. 27 year old North Carolina mother of a 1 year old. But it really does go from like the least to most narcissistic because the first one is like regretful and unhappy with her decision, but has more or less come to terms with it and is doing the right thing. And then the last one is separating from her husband and leaving him to be a single dad, which she says she's guilty about but not guilty enough to stay. And she's basically like a walking, talking advertisement against adoption. She's adopted, not her kids.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But she makes this point that like she has. She, you know, she goes back to therapy after having the kids and she has a breakthrough with her therapist where he's like, well, you wouldn't know how the mother child bond is supposed to work because you never had that yourself.

[A]

Well, yeah, she's. I don't think it's an argument against. It makes a case against adoption. She definitely had something else happen in her early life because lots of people are adopted and have maternal attachment to the people who adopted them and are better off.

[B]

She clearly does. And her therapist is like getting in her head.

[A]

I don't think she does.

[B]

Or maybe she's just like a total sociopath. Like one of those fringe cases who just shouldn't have children. And she probably shouldn't have children but

[A]

because she's I think traumatized by not having a mother. Because we don't really get much information about the circumstances of her.

[B]

Yeah. The only information that we get that's pretty consistent across the board in all three of the cases is that they all feel like they lost their identity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they all have husbands who seem not only accepting of, but enthusiastic about the prospect of being parents.

[A]

Yeah. Huh.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, and it, well, it made me think of that study that Just came out that people were talking about before Trump struck Iran, about how, as it turns out, if you financially incentivize women, the birth rate goes down, but if you financially incentivize men, the birth rate goes up.

[A]

That makes sense.

[B]

Which is, like, you know, unflattering but true.

[A]

But you were saying the woman who hates her kid is a sociopath.

[B]

I mean, I don't know.

[A]

The adopted woman. No, I mean, well, okay, so at first when I read it, I was like, okay, there. It was, like, shocking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But they are, like. I was like, okay, they're speaking candidly, anonymously, and they're voicing things that they know are shameful.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And being kind of like, you know, brutally honest.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I thought, like, okay, well, that has, like, value.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But then one thing that that last woman said, who, again, I do feel when she mentioned that she was adopted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, I mean, not everyone needs to have a kid.

[B]

I agree. And I'm being facetious, obviously, when I say, like, she's, like, the best case against adoption. But the thing is with adoption, you really don't know what you're gonna get.

[A]

Well, what's the alternative? That she would, like, languish and foster?

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Even worse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, more so she's a case against, like, putting your kids up for adoption because you're depriving them. And then she mentions how her son has, like, behavioral problems. Yes.

[B]

And then she was diagnosed with behavioral problems, too. Or is that another one? I don't remember.

[A]

She has ADHD.

[B]

PhD.

[A]

And I think, obviously, like, I don't have kids, and I don't know. And I know it's difficult, and I know that, like, kids can be difficult, but in her case, I couldn't help but immediately be like, oh, your son has behavioral problems because he can tell that you.

[B]

That you're not interested in him and don't want him.

[A]

Yeah. That you have, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Ambivalent feelings about him. You aren't. Because, like, what a good mother does. And obviously, good mothers also have kids with behavioral problems. But, like, I do think, basically, as long as you, like, are able to affirm that your child is, like, a unique soul that you love, it's important. That is important that you, like, don't resent.

[B]

Yeah, he can.

[A]

They probably.

[B]

Yeah. Children are very porous and perceptive, and they can sense when you resent them and don't want them.

[A]

Well, here's the quote from her that really, like, stuck with me was she said, it's been a Year. Also, all these people have pretty young kids, so it's a little bit unfair to, like, you know, she has a one year old. She's had postpartum. Like. Yeah, of course she's. I mean, she's breaking up her family, I guess, and. But, you know, I feel like when you talk to people with adult children, they remember the difficult years of early child rearing much differently and they, like, miss their kids and long for those days and, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Perspect. They don't. These people don't have perspective necessarily.

[B]

Yeah. And besides. But that's why I question why they should be given a voice. Well, what was the quote that you were gonna read?

[A]

Oh, okay. So it's been a year. Genuinely, if there is a hell, I've been living in it since I gave birth. My son has a low tolerance for frustration. Sounds like you.

[B]

Yeah. And doesn't apple, don't fall.

[A]

And doesn't communicate other than whining, screaming, crying, throwing things and pulling my hair.

[B]

Sounds like you, babe.

[A]

Yeah. Where do you think you learned that?

[B]

And, like, people probably are expecting us to be, like, snarky and catty and lash out at these women who, again, are anonymous and, like, told their stories for I. I don't know what purpose, maybe catharsis for them and awareness for the public, whatever.

[A]

But I do think this is very. This is, like, Max. Sympathetic. That they're like, there is a lot of pressure on women to have this unilaterally positive experience of motherhood. And then because it's socially unacceptable to say these things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or, like, discuss these aspects of parenting. Yeah. People end up internalizing lots of shame when they do have ambivalent feelings, which they inevitably will.

[B]

Of course. It's extremely frustrating and exhausting to have children, no matter who you are, unless you're extremely wealthy and can just pawn off all of the hard work onto, like, the help.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't think anybody denies that there are, like, feelings of anxiety and ambivalence that come up, but I question what the utility is of having this sort of, like, discourse in public. And I guess my bigger thing, my bigger take on this article is that I'm not interested in bashing these women specifically. But I get. Again, I question the purpose of this sort of journalism. And I think, like, the obvious, like, take. That you might glean from it is that it's like classic feminist propaganda to deter women from having children. But when you really think about it, we're past that point already because the propaganda worked and women aren't really having children. Most women, myself included, are not, like, above replacement, as, like, my haters are fond of pointing out.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so to me, this doesn't seem propagandistic in the. In like a clear cut, obvious way. And it seems more like a post hoc rationalization, like a cope to soothe and console women who don't have children and want them by saying, like, hey, it's not all it's cut out to be. You're gonna take a hit to your identity and lifestyle. Yeah. The. The main complaint that they all have is that they lost their identity along the way. And when you really think about it, my question is, like, what even is identity? And why do you think you're, like, entitled to it? And somebody, quote, tweeted me talking about this article and said, like, it's much simpler even than what you're saying. Losing your identity is a polite euphemism for the fact that having children reveals what socioeconomic class you really belong to. And usually most of the time it's lower than the one that you think you're in, which is so true.

[A]

I think that's true. And also the death of, like, a potential to, like, people harbor these delusions that if they're able to, like, that they'll be able to surpass.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Their limit. And then what a child does is

[B]

actually, like, remind you of it. Yeah.

[A]

Not just reminds you, but kind of like, not that you can't be upwardly mobile once you have kids, but it does, like, you're putting roots down. You're like, you know, you can't just, like, take a whimsical opportunity to like. Which you're not gonna realistically get to do anyway. Yeah.

[B]

And like somebody said, like, snarkily, like, having kids makes you poor. It doesn't make you poor. It reminds you that you're merely middle class or poor or poor. Yeah. It just reminds you of your station in life and that generally speaking, most times you can't transcend it. People rarely rise or fall in class. And he was right to a certain.

[A]

But don't they. But generationally they do.

[B]

Yeah, I think.

[A]

And that's why people historically have had kids is not just so that they could prosper more than them, but, like, the idea that they might because you are like, I think contemporary people have a harder time, like, with the foreclosure of opportunities that they will be presented with regardless of whether they have kids or not.

[B]

It's gonna hit you at some point anyway. You will be humbled and humiliated by

[A]

life and then that one in particular, that, like, bit in particular about, like, living in hell when I was watching the, like, footage of Tehran burning and, like, toxic rain raining down on people. And then. Because initially I did have kind of like a sympathetic. And I am sympathetic to, like, these individual women. Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, like, what's so toxic, I think, about the antenatalist perspective in general.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that it's like people used to. You think about everything that, like. And in America, this is less true in people's, like, immediate history. But, like, my grandparents were born in. During the Second World War.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And who knows what, like, my ancestors were up to before that. But in a lot of the world, like, a lot of people have struggled to stay alive and have struggled to procreate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And everything that people have, like, survived to produce progeny. They. Even if they weren't like, great parents or didn't like being parents, it didn't really matter because they believed that, like, well, I think life would be part

[B]

of them and they accepted it, that

[A]

life would find a way, that, like, the human race would endure, that there was, like, hope for the future.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's not so much that these women are just like, spoiled or selfish.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like the. There's just like a myopicness of not even thinking about the. It's really. It's like truly very nihilistic. Yeah.

[B]

It is like, truly narcissistic. Hate to use that word because it's like a preoccupation with the self.

[A]

But narcissists have kids.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Narcissists are healthier than whatever this is even, because they, like, have progeny to continue their blood. Like a narcissist has children and isn't full of so much like, neurotic strife about it, necessarily.

[B]

Yeah. No. Christopher Lash actually had a good bit about this where he talks about how narcissism has morphed over generations and that, like, you could describe the kind of like, pioneering revolutionary men of history as narcissists because they were self absorbed and self invented. But they were concerned with, like a kind of manifest destiny. Not only like, charting uncharted territories, but, like, making sure that they're like. That they were essentially immortal through their bloodlines, which was a much more like positive narcissism than we have now, which is like negative, nihilistic, inward looking, self

[A]

defeating, even mediocre people, some of whom are also narcissists, like, felt there was a reason to go on. Yeah. And that seems to be what's really missing is that there's no like. Notion that there's anything worth it that's outside of you.

[B]

Yeah, that that's what it is. And when I say like narcissism again, I truly don't mean like, I don't mean it as a moral judgment like you're a bad or evil person. I mean that you're like trapped in this like, like self defeating bubble. I was watching Ryan Murphy's Love Story and like doom scrolling Twitter looking at like Iran war takes at the same time because my attention span is so low and also is a little bit bored by the show. And then I like retired to bed and I like walked into Lenny's room and was like looking at him sleeping, his like placid beautiful face and was like gripped with like this profound deep sadness because the world that he's inheriting is just so much worse than the world that I had growing up. But that's always insert uncertain, ambiguous.

[A]

But that's always true. And like that doesn't deter me from

[B]

having children, but it does like make me think and make me sad.

[A]

Sure it is sad, but I think it like people used to their, you know, people have like life finds a way or it used to. Or like people would find like people have children in war zones and like

[B]

they don't like probably more children in war zones, honestly.

[A]

But yeah, their circumstance, like the women in this article, like their circumstances are so like everything they talk about even it's not like they want to like, you know, travel the world or you know, make an award winning film or you know, it's like they don't even have these ambitions. They're like, I want to go on a hike and take a nap.

[B]

Well that I understand because they're like conflating the loss of their identity with like.

[A]

But what even is their idea?

[B]

They're like comfort insanity because the first few years are. Who said that like childbearing is like combat for women. It is like I, I completely understand the like underlying mechanics of what we call postpartum depression, which is like sleep deprivation, hormonal free fall and sleep deprivation.

[A]

I get it's just chemical and I know like, you know, missing those things and longing for them. But to be like, my life would be better if I didn't have a child so I could take a nap. Not so I could like well and charitably or get tenure at my fake fucking job or whatever these people even do.

[B]

Yeah, like that one, the first woman who was like, you know, I was working at A nonprofit. And I thought this was like rewarding life changing work. And I, I took an L and took a job in comms so I could work from home. And it's like my immediate question was like, what kind of non profit? What were you doing that was so important? That's like more important than

[A]

gratified her ego to feel like she was good at something and it wasn't even. The hard real brutal truth is that it wasn't even something really meaningful.

[B]

No. No.

[A]

Or even personally meaningful. Like, and like you're not like being

[B]

a parent is gratifying in the long run, but it's often not gratifying in the short run. Not because children are annoying or a nuisance, but because you fail a lot as a parent.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And like you're humbled a lot as a parent.

[A]

But I think the narcissistic fantasy of like you could have accomplished these things had you not had kids.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When there are so many people who have children and are still like exceptional or prosperous.

[B]

Yeah. Even if you want to be zero sum about it. It's not like these women are like artists or filmmakers or lawmakers or politicians. They're not really doing anything.

[A]

And a lot of those people do have.

[B]

Yeah. They all have kids. More or less.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not all of them, but some female

[A]

filmmakers don't, but Elaine May did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she's one of the best to ever do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I think female artists who don't have kids, like obviously having kids hinders them in some practical ways.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it not having children hinders them creatively. I think not everyone. Obviously some people shouldn't. Some people are like, you know, clear to knee, childless, does amazing, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Great. I'm glad, I'm glad she doesn't have kids so she can, you know, do her thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like most of these don't need to have to do.

[B]

Yeah. You're working at a non profit. What do you got to do?

[A]

Train some dogs and you have body dysmorphia? Like shut up.

[B]

Yeah. And that's the other thing. The other big complaints was were that they. Yeah. Took a hit to their lifestyle and that they felt like their body was ruined. And my feeling with that is like. Yeah, they, they, they no longer feel like fun and free and sexy. But the whole point of being fun and free and sexy is that you find a partner who wants to nut inside of you and get you pregnant so that you can have kids. Like what, what other, what else is

[A]

there so that you can go On.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And yeah, it'd be nice. Like, I'm. I think it's fine if they want to like, amplify these kinds of experiences, but then they should also. And I understand why they don't because it runs counter to the feminist project. But like, there's def. There's like a corollary. Foil article to be written by women who haven't had kids who are like middle aged and alone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they don't. Their house is like cold and they can take a nap whenever they want. But, like, for what? They're just gonna die in like a nursing home or something?

[B]

Yeah. Those voices are like pretty much unilaterally suppressed. And I. That's what I mean. Like, this is not propaganda for not having children. It's cope for not having children.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because there's gonna be like, okay, there's gonna be a lot of women who are basically my age who don't make it to the finish line and don't have kids, and they're gonna be really hurt and upset. And like, I'm not a right wing anon, and I'm not like gloating in their, like, singledom and misery.

[A]

And maybe not.

[B]

I feel only sadness and compassion for them.

[A]

And maybe not even in their 40s or not even in their 50s, but like in their 60s. 7. Like eventually, like, it's gonna hit. It's gonna catch up with you.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Like, you can't just live in this totally myopic way. And yes, having children is a kind of loss of identity. But it's good.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

And it really comes down to them not having like a spiritual framework. So they like, are over invested in egoic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, their identity is something that's like egoic rather than a big picture in which they are not the most important thing.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. And like charitably, I understand also that they. It's not their fault because the. The nature of the family structure is that it has been like declining in recent times. And so you had big tribes or clans, then you had the nuclear family. Now you have like broken homes and fractured families. So people just don't have like, networks or communities of people. Like, it takes a village or whatever.

[A]

I mean, that there was one woman whose main. She's kind of. She's upset with herself, with how preoccupied

[B]

she is with her.

[A]

Like, she does seem like a good mom and that she, like, is very concerned about her daughter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She talks about like, how she has a nosebleed and she has to pick her Up. But then she like, neurotically kind of spirals about what if one day she's not there? It's like, it's a lot of like, mental. But she has like a mom helping her.

[B]

Yeah, but that's like, also normal and natural. Like, if you like literally just like, Google it, like, read about it. It's a very common phenomenon that when you are like a first time parent, you're like beset with anxiety and guilt and intrusive thoughts of something really bad happening. Of course.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because you are just like hormonally dysregulated for the first year or two.

[A]

I mean, I think it's that way for a lot of women. And then. Yeah. Like, kids don't really start, like, making you laugh and stuff until for a while they're kind of just like worms that, like, you have to. Well, I don't depend on you completely. And I don't mean there's no connection. I mean, like, before they can, like, carry a conversation.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, yeah.

[A]

And you really feel like, you know,

[B]

when the, the kid is a real baby, like from.06 months. Yeah, zero to one. Peter Teal. It's difficult to the extent that like, yeah, you're like hormonally dysfunctional and sleep deprived. But it's easy because the. He's like functionally a vegetable and you can like, take him anywhere and do anything. And then like between two and three years, you have like the terrible twos where they're like, not quite sentient but acting out. And it's really difficult to like, wrangle them and reason with them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then now that he's like, almost five, it's totally fine.

[A]

I just. Yeah. I also think there's this like, millennial idea that everything needs to be, like, optimized for your enjoyment. Yeah.

[B]

Your personal gratification.

[A]

There's no sense of duty. There's nothing that people just do because they're like, bound to do it.

[B]

Well, they like. Sense of honor.

[A]

Yeah. They have to be gratified by it at every turn. If they're not, then something must be wrong and they have ADHD or they're anxious or depressed or whatever. But.

[B]

Well, that's like tangentially my big beef with some of these, like, right wing and on accounts who I won't name, who will lash out at us and be like, oh, you're like Eastern European whores, like subversive shit stirrers. You know, you. You have no background or heritage. You're not welcome here. Like, send you back. But it's like they. They also behave in a way publicly that's like, devoid of any duty or honor. So why should I respect their claims if they can't back it up?

[A]

Sure. I mean, I don't relate to heritage Americans. It's not my experience.

[B]

And then like, the other thing of this article is like, obviously there's like kind of sinister, subversive subtext because the people who publish these pieces know that they will generate a viral discourse that will pit people against each other, it will pit men against women, and it'll pit childless people against people with children. And then there's going to be like this fractious, discordant dialogue going on for many days until something else bigger happens.

[A]

Well, that's how you get the clicks, baby. Yeah.

[B]

And that's also like, really terrible because it's like, yeah, they. They portray again, the husbands as like happy, willing parents.

[A]

Well, because they, they do sacrifice less.

[B]

They do. Yeah. Obviously it's easier.

[A]

It's one of the women, she mentioned, her husband's a carpenter.

[B]

Yeah, I know, I noticed that.

[A]

Who does? And she's like trying to be a. Well, she also says that she was wanted to get tenure or go to a graduate program or something. She was going to take some exam, but then she had to do during COVID But then she had to do bed rest because she had like, complications with her pregnancy. And it's like, why can't you take an exam doing like, during COVID while doing bed rest? That just didn't quite add up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then she says her husband's a carpenter who doesn't have to worry about work. And it's like, no, you're just such a narcissist. You don't understand what other people worry about.

[B]

Yeah. And you can't, like, he work.

[A]

He has a job.

[B]

Yeah. You. You assume that you're an accessory to him, but you treat him like a accessory to you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like you completely, like, neglect, refuse to acknowledge his point of view in all of this. And they.

[A]

Yeah, they bought some. That one ends with like a kind of a positive note where they buy a house.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then she asks him if he thinks their life would be better if they didn't have kids. And he kind of says yes. And that just makes her feel less alone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is kind of a nice. You know, it's like, sure, you could have these like, anti social, creepy thoughts, but like, yeah, you shouldn't be alone in them.

[B]

But she, she's basically complaining that they have spent Their entire life savings on buying a house in a better school district. And it's like, well, what else are you going to spend your life savings on? If you're going to spend them, I understand, like, keeping some for a rainy day, but, like, if you're gonna spend money on anything.

[A]

Also a home.

[B]

Once you have a family, it should be for your family.

[A]

Ideally, though, obviously the market's volatile, but home's an asset.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It might depreciate in value, but it might not. You, like, bought something that you didn't buy. A $17,000 mattress.

[B]

That's only

[A]

depreciating in value. Like, you have property. That's like, some people say that's better than money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because the dollar might tank because of

[B]

the Straight of Hormuz.

[A]

Who?

[B]

The place we just learned about recently. I'm really worried about it. Yeah.

[A]

I hate to hear it. I'm like, it's still closed. Open that thing up. That's gonna cause big problems.

[B]

Yeah. I don't. I mean, I can't imagine an article being published that's like a glowing report about how great it is to have children, how this brought you closer to your husband.

[A]

I mean, imagine showing a woman in Iran this article.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Women in America regret having children. And, like, we might kill your kids.

[B]

Yeah. They're like, we. Well, we regret that you bombed our school and killed our sons and daughters.

[A]

Like, there's people literally, like, fighting to keep their children alive. And you're like, it's not for me.

[B]

Eh. Yeah.

[A]

I'm kind of having a bad time with this kid I had in the first world country I live in because I never got tenure at my fake job.

[B]

Well, there's. It's like a crazy irony that she wants to get tenure to be a teacher for other people's children.

[A]

She's probably a college professor or something.

[B]

She says teacher, though, not professor.

[A]

But normal teachers don't get tenure, do they?

[B]

They do sometimes. Yeah.

[A]

Interesting. Yeah. I assumed she had some, like, university position.

[B]

No, because you know how. How women are. If they're getting tenure as a professor,

[A]

they're gonna be like, yeah, but maybe it would. Would have doxxed her too much. Maybe she's being deliberately vague. I'm being charitable.

[B]

Yeah. But, yeah, there is just, like, an all around. I don't think this is even necessarily a strictly woman problem. There's just like an all around, like, lack of tolerance and intolerance for any, like, kind of like, stress, discomfort, inconvenience.

[A]

It gets, like, pathologized.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Medicated

[B]

and my feeling with that is, like, whenever your cortisol is spiked and you're feeling stressed, you should just, like, sit on it and not say anything. Not lash out. Drink a comment. Yeah, drink a bunch. Take a bunch of pills, mother's little helper. And, like, ride it out and it'll be fine.

[A]

I mean, not the last part we say in jest, but true the others. It's true. And then in the big. That's the thing is, like, people don't much like childbirth. And this again, as a childless person, I don't really know, but I imagine. And maybe this is a fantasy, but the same way women, like, forget how painful childbirth is so they can, like, go through it again. I do think, like, once you raise children and you have a family and hopefully it's still, like, intact, you don't look back on, like, the postpartum and the stress of infancy. You just kind of, like, take it all in an amalgam of, like, the life that you made and you have a family.

[B]

Yeah, that's worth it. Yeah. You miss the days when they were, like, cute little babies when they're surly teens.

[A]

And then when they're, you know, when they go to college, you'll miss when they're surly teens. Like, yeah, that's life, babe.

[B]

The empty nest syndrome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not looking forward to that.

[A]

And then they, like, won't call you or talk to you. I know you'll, like, like, miss them and you'll give anything to, like, have them, like, pull your hair and punch,

[B]

you know, I know this week has been very hard for me, not because of the war in Iran, but because Lenny hit some developmental milestone where, like, he's.

[A]

He found out the podcast is annoying and he.

[B]

He thinks that we're fascists, so he wants to distance himself from it. But, yeah, like, he's like, more cognizant of, like, social pressures and seeking independence and I just have to, like, ride with it because I can't be, like, a devouring Oedipal mother or whatever. But it's like he's moving. Painful and bittersweet. Yeah. He's getting a skating sponsorship. He has full blown oral herpes.

[A]

Stop.

[B]

He's modeling for Supreme.

[A]

He found out about zog. He's had enough. He's decided he's not MAGA anymore.

[B]

But, like, yeah, obviously you're gonna, like, miss the days when they were like,

[A]

of course.

[B]

Sweet little clingy vegetables, like, children aside,

[A]

you miss all the, like, I mean, yeah, I've had times in My life. I definitely don't like myth, you know, but like I have nostalgia certainly for like being younger and not knowing like how much time I had or how my life would turn out. And I had like anxieties and unhappiness then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like in hindsight I would have just been like, oh, I just didn't have enjoyed like what I was doing then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it never, you know, easier said than done. No one ever like lives. No one can live like that.

[B]

No, I know. Like you remember the times when you were like a broke, fugly loser. Yeah.

[A]

And you're like, my life is so easy.

[B]

It was so nice and fun and happy and carefree.

[A]

I used to go to the mall for eight hours a day and drink THC water.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like my life sucked. I was like self medicating, I guess. But also, you know, it had its charms.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You were like, you don't get those days back.

[B]

You were like truly free in a way that you're not now. Should we talk about the white girls article or wrap it up?

[A]

Let's wrap it up. I feel I like started reading Lost Lambs because the mad.

[B]

I don't. I. Have I ever met Madeline Cash?

[A]

You may have. I saw blood at her apartment when I was suffering extreme distress from the Israeli construction outside my apartment.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I was. When I read that article, I was thinking like how like even like 5 years ago I would have been like really against these girls and would have been like, oh yeah, they're like doing feminist confessionalism and they're like political fence sitters. But that article really pissed me off because it was so like petty and jealous.

[A]

Her book's not even auto. It's like truly, it's. It's like a real novel with like many characters. It's not auto fictional. It's not none of this like, it's a real straw man that she's like making a critique against because Madeline Cash's book is being met with a lot of acclaim.

[B]

Have you read it?

[A]

I started reading it. She sent it to me a while ago. I'm an asshole. So I'm like brain damage, I think. But it seems totally good and like, is just amazing. It's like an amazing feat even I think to write.

[B]

To do something like that. Yeah.

[A]

To write a novel with like many characters.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Instead of just like one person even. Even writing a like an auto fiction novel where it's just like basically you like diaristically experiencing.

[B]

How old are these girls? They're in their late 20s, early 30s.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. They should be allowed to have their fun.

[A]

Well, Honor's a genius. It's her debut short story collection. Like, why are you still taking her to task for it and lumping her into some, like, narrative you're trying to create? And then Madeline wrote, like, a real book. That is impressive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, like, yeah, we can be critical of it, but in this, none of. None of these really, like, hit. Okay. Yeah, we gotta go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

See you now.

[B]

See you in hell.

[A]

Sat.