Call Him Brandon w/ Zoe Kestan

Summary

Red Scare Podcast Episode Summary: "Call Him Brandon w/ Zoe Kestan"

Episode Details:

• Title: Call Him Brandon w/ Zoe Kestan
• Release Date: December 13, 2024
• Hosts: Anna Khachiyan and Dasha Nekrasova
• Guest: Zoe Kestin (formerly known as Weed Slut 420)

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1. Reintroduction of Zoe Kestin

The episode begins with Anna and Dasha warmly welcoming back Zoe Kestin, highlighting her transition from her former moniker, "Weed Slut 420," to simply Zoe. Zoe explains her discomfort with the old name, stating, “[...] it's kind of uncomfortable for people to say sometimes” (00:28). The hosts reminisce about Zoe's previous appearance on the show in 2019, where she promoted her line of lingerie and weed paraphernalia.

2. Transition from Weed Slut 420 to Zoe Kestin

Reflecting on her past entrepreneurial ventures, Zoe shares, “I have 173 pieces of [Weed Slut 420 merchandise]” (40:46), indicating the substantial inventory she amassed. She discusses the emotional and practical challenges of moving away from this brand, revealing her desire to redefine herself and her creative pursuits.

3. Relationship with Hunter Biden and Media Coverage

A significant portion of the conversation centers on Zoe's former relationship with Hunter Biden. She reveals that her relationship was the subject of a New York Times profile, describing the pressure and media scrutiny she faced. Zoe states, “I decided a couple months ago to just say fuck it and talk to Joe” (03:01), referring to her decision to open up about her experiences publicly.

4. Subpoena and Witnessing the Trial

Zoe delves into the legal ramifications of her relationship with Hunter Biden, recounting the moment she received a subpoena to testify in his trial. “[...] Dealer a couple years ago came, and she said, I had a very substantial tip that you were paid not one, not two, but $5 million to, you know, delete your Instagram” (59:22). She describes the invasive process of having her digital life scrutinized, likening it to a “cavity search” and expressing feelings of violation and anxiety.

5. Impact on Personal Life and Social Media

Zoe discusses how the relationship and subsequent media attention affected her personal life and social media presence. She mentions deleting her Instagram account to distance herself from the public association with Hunter Biden, stating, “It felt really good to kind of move through the world being, like, just me” (28:24). Zoe reflects on the evolution of social media, expressing nostalgia for the simpler days of Instagram and discomfort with platforms like TikTok.

6. Creative Evolution: From Fashion to Homewares

Transitioning from her past as a designer, Zoe shares her shift from fashion to homewares and other creative outlets. She explains, “I love knitting and making plushies” (37:55), highlighting her current focus on domestic, wholesome projects. Zoe articulates her frustration with the fast-paced fashion industry and her preference for creating long-lasting, meaningful art objects.

7. Astrology and Personal Background

An interesting segment involves a brief discussion on astrology, where Zoe and the hosts explore their zodiac signs and how they may influence personalities. Zoe shares her own astrology chart, identifying herself as a Leo, Aries, Aries, and suggests that Hunter Biden is an Aquarius, adding a humorous twist to their conversation about compatibility.

8. Reflections on Addiction and Relationship Dynamics

Zoe provides deep insights into the complexities of her relationship with Hunter Biden, particularly focusing on his drug addiction. She remarks, “I never saw a change in him” (79:36), emphasizing that despite his addictions, he maintained a vibrant persona. The hosts and Zoe discuss the nature of addiction, the allure of high-functioning addicts, and the emotional toll such relationships take on individuals.

9. Legal and Emotional Turmoil

Zoe recounts the emotional strain of being involved in Hunter Biden’s legal battles, including her testimony and the stress of being a witness. She shares, “The surreal experience was everything leading up to going into the courtroom” (80:51), describing the anxiety and routine of legal proceedings. The conversation touches on the broader implications of being tied to a prominent political figure and the resulting personal upheaval.

10. Moving Forward: Personal Growth and Future Plans

Towards the episode's conclusion, Zoe reflects on her growth and the lessons learned from her tumultuous relationship. She speaks about redefining her identity, focusing on healthier relationships, and pursuing new creative endeavors. Zoe mentions her interest in learning golf as a new hobby, blending her creative spirit with personal wellness: “I started learning how to golf” (107:14).

Zoe expresses hope for the future, both personally and professionally, and hints at potential collaborations and projects to move past her previous brand and experiences. She conveys a sense of closure and resilience, aiming to rebuild her life and artistic expression independently.

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Notable Quotes:

• Zoe Kestin (03:01): “I decided a couple months ago to just say fuck it and talk to Joe about.”
• Zoe Kestin (28:24): “It felt really good to kind of move through the world being, like, just me.”
• Zoe Kestin (40:46): “I have 173 pieces of [Weed Slut 420 merchandise].”
• Zoe Kestin (79:36): “I never saw a change in him.”
• Zoe Kestin (107:14): “I started learning how to golf.”

---

Conclusion:

In this candid episode of Red Scare, Zoe Kestin opens up about her intense personal journey intertwined with her high-profile relationship with Hunter Biden. She navigates through themes of identity, media scrutiny, legal battles, and personal growth with honesty and introspection. The conversation offers listeners a deep dive into the emotional and psychological impacts of being connected to a political figure, while also highlighting Zoe's resilience and evolving creative passions.

Transcript

[Anna]

Entrepreneur. Designer.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, designer. I don't know. I'm not an entrepreneur. I never ended up being one.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Social media star and it girl. Oh, God.

[Zoe Kestin]

That was his. Those were his words.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

No, I. I knew those were his words. There's no way she put him up to it.

[Anna]

Welcome. We're back.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

We're back.

[Anna]

Welcome back. We have a return guest today.

[Zoe Kestin]

Hey.

[Anna]

Ms. Zoe Kestin, formerly known as Weed Slut 420. Welcome back to Red Sk.

[Zoe Kestin]

Thank you.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You don't go by Weed Slut anymore at all?

[Zoe Kestin]

No, I mean, my friends call me that.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

It's still your Twitter handle.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, it's just like a funny name and it's kind of uncomfortable for people to say sometimes.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, it's like.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, it's like, very jarring. But yeah, no, I'd rather. I feel like now just. I mean, it is partially me, but I am also just Zoe.

[Anna]

Of course.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Yeah. When you came on the show in 2019, you were promoting a line of lingerie and weed smoking paraphernalia under the wheat slot 420 brand that I still have somewhere.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. It's all in my apartment.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, it's good stuff.

[Zoe Kestin]

I know.

[Anna]

I like, I was so looking forward to that neon bra.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But actually, like, when you came over today, I had this thought. I was like, wow, she sounds so different. Because Zoe was talking to Eli about, like, the transportation museum in Brooklyn and like, the model house near Whole Foods.

[Zoe Kestin]

And I was talking about, like, the New York City history podcast.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You should have your own podcast where you talk about, like, New York City, like, history and historic preservation.

[Zoe Kestin]

That's a new thing for me.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But then I was like, oh. Cause the last time we did this, we were all so high.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. Yeah. I actually can't remember very much what we talked about. I just know. I was like, and here's this piece, and here's this product. And you guys were like, oh, it's so pretty, and nobody else knows what it looks like.

[Anna]

I thought it was a good episode.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, yeah. Girly hangout.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. Wherever the conversation led.

[Anna]

So, Zoe, you're the subject of a New York Times profile. Yeah. You're in the news. You've been in the news.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, I decided a couple months ago to just say fuck it and talk to Joe about.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And he approached you?

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, I was talking to Caitlin and, you know, she said, if anyone's gonna do it, this should be the guy. But, you know, I've. Through the trial stuff, I've. I've talked about this, like Timeline, you know, through the whole. The whole period of time that all these details of what people want to know so many times. And, you know, I guess he just wanted to know what it was like from my perspective. And I'm sure there's, you know, a lot of kind of interesting anecdotes to. Especially to some of your listeners.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, like the one where you guys were in the hotel in Massachusetts and you were smoking crack and you guys were listening to Red Scare.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, we were listening to.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Do you remember what episode?

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, yeah, so I wanted to tell you. So it was like a month or so before that that Jordan Barce had sent me your podcast, and that's when I had started listening. And it was like I had listened to the K Punk episode, like, the day before. I went up there, and I was listening to it, and I was just. I feel like I texted him, and I was like, you have to listen to this. And it was, you know, at a.

[Anna]

Certain point, I don't think it was Hunter Biden. We haven't said it.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, that's another funny thing of, like, when we. When we did our first episode together. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but you were, like.

[Anna]

You told us.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Seeing the sky.

[Zoe Kestin]

No, I told you before I told you. Yeah, it was, like, a couple months.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Before, and we, like, couldn't talk about it.

[Anna]

And when I didn't.

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, when I first told you, I feel like you didn't know who he was, which is the same thing. Yeah, Nobody did.

[Anna]

Yeah. Because it was 2019.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And so I was like, oh, the former vice president.

[Zoe Kestin]

Like, I was like, how many kids he had?

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Hunter wasn't in the, like, a.

[Zoe Kestin]

No. And that was the kind of experience with. Whenever I introduced him to anyone. Right.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

There was one time in New York where we went to that place, the flower shop in Chinatown. And it was for a friend of mine's, like, launch for her clothing brand. And I went with my friend who went to Bard, and a guy she went to Bard with ended up, you know, talking to us. And I guess he knew who he was. So, like, he and Hunter were, like, at the bar for, like, 45 minutes. And the guy. The guy was just like, what are you doing here? But I'm pretty sure that was the only person I can think of.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, he never got recognized at, like, China Chalet or Lucien.

[Anna]

No, no, he was still pretty anonymous.

[Zoe Kestin]

Completely. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But wait, but backtracking to the. The part in the article where he talks about Hunter Listening to. So it was the Cape Punk episode.

[Zoe Kestin]

It was.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And could you tell our voices apart?

[Zoe Kestin]

Yes.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay.

[Zoe Kestin]

He could.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay, awesome.

[Zoe Kestin]

And he said that you both sounded really hot. Yeah, I remember that. I think it was pretty late into the morning. It was like, probably like three or four in the morning.

[Anna]

Yeah, that sounds so fun.

[Zoe Kestin]

And we were sitting on a bed in one guest room. It was. I. It wasn't in a hotel. It was actually in his house, in his rental house. And it had like, four rooms. And we were just ended up in one of the other rooms. And the lights were, like, super bright, like, in here. And. Yeah, I feel like we were talking about something and I was like, can I finally play you this thing I was listening to? It's so interesting. And it was actually like, the other day I was like, trying to remember because I told Joe, I said, I think this is, you know, this is the episode we were listening to. And Joe was like, that tracks. But I couldn't remember exactly, you know, what we were talking about. And so I re. Listened to it a bit like a couple days ago, and yeah, I feel like it was like, all about this, like, mental health kind of, you know, zeitgeist. Yeah. And there was something about it that felt like he would find it interesting and relate, but I doubt he remembers what it, you know.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, maybe, maybe, maybe.

[Anna]

Did you read his biography?

[Zoe Kestin]

I didn't. I haven't read any of it.

[Anna]

Wait, whose Hunters? Oh, yeah, his autobiography.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I think we've reviewed it.

[Anna]

We did an episode on it.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

I listened to a bit of it on audiobook because the prosecutors asked me to tell them if there was anything that didn't seem, you know, correct, if there's anything that I would. That I thought, you know, was in. In fact, incorrect, you know. But no, I didn't. I didn't read or listen to the whole thing.

[Anna]

It's pretty boring. Yeah, there's some fun, like, capers in.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It, but do you have, like, a hard time engaging with stuff that reminds you of that relationship or.

[Zoe Kestin]

Sometimes. But I think it's just like, so from this perspective of. From the moment that, you know, I kind of stopped, you know, the connection between us, literally, like, you know, phone, email, all that stuff. It was like, already a campaign. So everything that I kind of took in felt performative in some way. And I think from knowing him, everything that I understood from him was super, like, you know, a different personal side than I'm sure whatever. Even back then, you know, he kind of put out into the world as A public Persona. So.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I guess I have a question. Like, why. Why did you want to talk to Joe and tell your story? Because I was thinking about this article, which is, like, you know, it's pretty, like, mellow and tame, and it's not critical or even necessarily that gossipy. And it's not like a classic tell your story situation where the woman is, like, on a me too tear, and it's like, he abused me and exploited me, and I hate him and da, da, da.

[Zoe Kestin]

I think it was mostly that everything out there on the Internet was just so salacious, and it was just, you know, when one article comes out, there's, like, five kind of copies of that article, you know, and there's just, like, replicas and replicas.

[Anna]

So, like, on the Daily Mail circuit.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, yeah. But even the Daily Mail does something, and then, like, some, you know, there's websites that's like, all the same thing. So it's like you type my name in and it's like pages of the same stuff. And I just wanted something else out there, and I wasn't, you know, 100% sure what exactly I wanted out of the article. And I spoke to Joe for so long. We spoke for, like, five hours in total, probably. And there was only so much he could kind of condense that into. So I think part of the article was kind of his interpretation of my experience, which.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Do you feel he did it just.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, yeah. I just think, you know, it's like a relationship as a period of my life. You know, one year, it's like one thing that happened, and to me, it was just like, a lot less salacious, I guess is the word in the experience. Of course, there's, you know, drugs and sex and parties and that kind of stuff, but you felt it was a little neutered. I felt like there was just something kind of more. I don't know the word.

[Anna]

Like, it was very genteel.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, that could be it. I don't know.

[Anna]

In the article, like, it was very.

[Zoe Kestin]

There were elements that were wholesome in a way.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You're talking about the relationship itself, not the article that, like, as it was happening, the relationship felt very, like, normal and romantic and.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yes.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, I totally get what you're saying.

[Zoe Kestin]

From Joe's perspective, he was like. But, you know, you were also 24, the only stripper. Yeah. And the only, like, real relationships I'd had, Party girl.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, yeah, it does sound so crazy and salacious, but that's like. It kind of tracks with my theory of the world, which is like, everything is much more, like, reasonable and mundane in reality than it sounds.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And it's not media. So black and white. And I think part of what. While I was in it, I kind of was excited by the, you know, intense, you know, feliciousness. I don't know why I can't think of another word right now. But, yeah, well, yeah, the, like, craziness of it, but on the day to day, and at least just, like, the way that I feel like I related to him at that time, there was a lot of stuff that felt really normal. But I think I just also wanted to kind of put out that I'm normal in some way. And I feel like I've seen and heard and other people have experienced relationships that are, you know, have just as much chaos, but it's just not public like that.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

President's son.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

A lot of people have been in relationships with drug addicts.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, me.

[Anna]

Yeah, same.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, I have a question about that, because there was another article that I saw an excerpt from that I didn't actually read, but somebody posted it on Twitter, and it was like, a woman talking about how she was, like, in a VIP room at a strip club and Hunter put on Fleet Foxes, and she felt really safe with him. And I realized, yeah, I was like, oh, duh, this is Zoe. But I was thinking, like, why do we women feel so safe with, like, womenizing drug addicts? Like, what's that all about?

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, I just, like, even before I knew, even the time period between that night and me seeing him again, which ended up being, like, kind of, you know, it was a week, and then it turned into the next 11 months. Like, the moment he was like, oh, I'm gonna put a song on my phone and put that song on. I was like. I was like, what? This is the song you put? I thought it was the funniest thing and, like, endearing and male Pisces. What happened is that I was. Yeah, I was, like, finishing my night, working there, and, you know, the manager and another dancer were like, do you want to stay for one more, you know, private room? It's 30 minutes, whatever. And I thought, why not? Especially? Because they just asked me and it was just straight up, you know, to do it. And it was like 4 to 4:30. But while I was in the elevator, the girl who was with me, I guess she'd known him or she'd known of him, she turned to me and was like, by the way, this guy does crack. And I was like, okay. I was like, all right. This is gonna be an interesting experience, I guess. So I kind of, like, went in a little on guard for that, but when I walked in the door, you know, or in the. Through the curtain, what he looked like and the way he was dressed, it was, like, not what I was expecting.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

And then he put on the White Winter Hymnal by Flea Foxes, which I remember listening to when I was, like, 14.

[Anna]

That's. Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I was, like, listening to it while I was, like, shopping at Urban Outfitters. Yeah. I thought that was just the funniest thing I'd ever seen. And I think during the testimony, I just, like, needed to get that detail out because it was so funny. There were so many things that just made me laugh. Yeah.

[Anna]

Yeah, yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Another.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But did you feel like you were, like, instantly attracted to him or. Not really.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay.

[Zoe Kestin]

I mean, it was just walking in, like, the attitude he had, his personality, the way he looked, like, he was so kind.

[Anna]

I remember you telling us that back in 2019.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

He's so, like, sensitive and, like. Yeah. Like, being tortured is very attractive.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. But obviously, at that point, you know, it's like you have to kind of reflect and say, okay, like, you can think this person is so kind and so sensitive, but, like, look at what you're experiencing. Like, you know, that's not healthy for you.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, yeah, you have to set, like, you have to kind of understand a person's limitations and accept them for what they are and set boundaries accordingly. Like, that's, like, truly the meaning of love. But.

[Zoe Kestin]

Which I got to that point.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. Eventually do. But you, like. I wonder what. Why all of us women are so attracted to, like, these type of guys.

[Zoe Kestin]

Because it makes you feel special.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. And you feel like you can fix him and, like, all these, like, obvious kind of things.

[Zoe Kestin]

But.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But is it also because, like, they don't really need you because their addiction is numero uno? And that also turns women on because, like, you know, when you have, like, a clingy or sticky guy, you're, like, halfway out the door.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

But often with addicts, they do need you because they. The dynamic becomes coded.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I'm not saying selectively, but arbitrarily, which is also a turn.

[Zoe Kestin]

The first night that I stayed with him at the Soho grand, in that hotel, when I woke up the next morning, he was asleep, and I think I must have. I had my laptop with me, and I remember I was like, oh, I have something to work on. And I love the lounge there. Have you guys been there? It's really nice it's like low couches and huge, big windows. And I was just like, okay, I'll go downstairs and do some work and order coffee. And so I wrote him a note, and I was like, I'm just downstairs. And when I got back, he said, you know, I was so happy when I saw your note. I thought, you know, most, you know, I thought you were. You left. And that was the first time that I've slept in two weeks or something like that. And then I feel like throughout that week, I don't know if this is true, but he, you know, and kind of throughout the first couple months, he kept saying that, you know, when I'm with you, I'm not using as much. I feel like you're helping me, like, you know, slow down and, you know, you're a distraction that's going to help me get off this. And, I mean, from the first night, we kind of talked about it fully. Like, he, you know, immediately was like, I don't want to be in this situation. But I think he also did a good job making me feel really special, which as, you know, as soon as I felt that, it was like I wanted to feel that. And it felt like, okay, nobody else has been able to help him. And ultimately you learn that nobody else can help them. Yes. Yeah. You know, how, like, unique and special could you be if you were that person to be the one to, you know, fix something so bad.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna]

But only Jesus can. Salvation.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And ultimately, at the end of the day, it's like, I think this is with so many situations, like, has not specific to drug addiction or any kind of addiction. It's like you're the only one who can make the commitment to change for something that you want.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. And, like, help yourself.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. When I was in LA with him, at one point, he left to go back to the east coast for, like, two and a half weeks. And I ended up going to, like, an Al Anon meeting in Beverly Hills. And it was just like, with a bunch of. It was mostly older women who were talking about their children who were, you know, addicted to various things. And I feel like I did speak and I was like, I'm with this guy and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think by the end they were just like, why are you with him? You know, you just, you know, it's not that long. I told them probably at that point had been five, six months. And I think, you know, were you loved?

[Anna]

Would you. Could you. Would you say you loved?

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, I mean, I think I was like, one Too young to realize how serious it was compared to, I don't know, other kind of levels of addiction.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, he probably, yeah, did a good job making you feel special, but also did a good job masking the extent of the addiction from you.

[Zoe Kestin]

For sure.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

For a time.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, for a time. And. And when he was, you know, very present, it felt like he was so energetic and geared towards a future for himself that at that time, you know, felt like I was included in it.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Did you ever imagine, like, a future together? Like a traditional future?

[Zoe Kestin]

Like, I mean, at some points, I felt like. I felt like. I don't know how, but, like, you know, we fit together so well or whatnot. But at the same time, I think in the back of my head, I was like, of course that's not gonna happen. But again, everything was up in the air in terms of, you know, the situation with his dad and his family. And I think in my mind, you know, I thought maybe if his dad didn't run for president, then, okay, I don't know.

[Anna]

But, yeah, no one would have even been talking about the Biden.

[Zoe Kestin]

But at the same time, you know, from the very beginning, everyone in my life was like, this is never going to end. Well.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna]

So I want.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

One of my questions is like, what did your friends and family think of this?

[Zoe Kestin]

Oh, they, you know, at a certain point, they all were fed up and.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And I, you know, had to continually defend the fact that I was, you know, going to California. I mean, I had my reasons for doing that. And, yeah, it was constantly kind of like defending the situation and trying to make it seem normal when nobody, Nobody believed that at all.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

There was that point in Joe's article where you were like, oh, he met my mom. And she didn't say anything mean, but she didn't say anything at all.

[Zoe Kestin]

Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, that's kind of how my mom is with everybody. Like, not very many people impress my mom, but. But no, it is. You know, when we went to California, he. His, you know, kind of starting of that conversation was, okay, I can't deal with all of the stress that has to do with everyone in my life on the East Coast. I want to go to California. I feel like if, you know, I'm with you and we set up this detox and this rehab, like, it'll finally happen. And in my mind, my lease on my apartment was ending. It was perfect timing. I had saved up enough money to go work with the only factories I knew, which were in la. And it felt perfect. We were Gonna get a place together. He was gonna bring his car. I was gonna bring my samples that I'd made here in New York. And I just had to be there and go there, you know, every couple of days and go meet and check on them and kind of start that process. And whenever I talk to my friends, that was, you know, this is the reason why I'm here. Like, it's gonna be good. And I think, you know, after a month or two months in la, there was definitely distance between, you know, my close friends and family that were back here. I had friends in LA and, you know, I think we all spent time together. I would, you know, we would. They would come over and hang out wherever we were. And I brought Hunter over to various things in LA with my friends. But pretty soon after we were there, it was like, you know, it was kind of like. I think like Joe said in the article, it was, like, pretty obvious how. How intense his situation was.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Did he have friends?

[Zoe Kestin]

No. I mean, he talked about his. His close friends that were people he grew up with, but he would make friends with people everywhere he went. And when we were in la, it was like, those were his new friends.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Right.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

What's your best memory of the relationship? Like, what do you would, if you had to, like, your fondest memory?

[Zoe Kestin]

I don't know. I have to think about that.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Think about it, Think about it.

[Zoe Kestin]

It's all just like, at this point, it's like everything seems dark, but at the same time, it's like there's funny things. Yeah. Ask me at the end.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Let me think.

[Anna]

I'll let you think about it.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, this type of experience really. What?

[Anna]

It's hard looking back because.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, it makes you realize that everything you really believed in and had faith in is fake. And it makes you question your own instincts.

[Zoe Kestin]

Oh, yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And your own feelings.

[Zoe Kestin]

I mean, because when you.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

When you fall in love with somebody, like, right away, like, very intensely, and then it gets.

[Zoe Kestin]

You're using that to justify everything else. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And then it gets kind of like the curtain gets pulled back and you're like, wait a second. This is actually really.

[Zoe Kestin]

And it took me a long time once.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Dark and dysfunctional.

[Zoe Kestin]

It took me a long time, once that happened, the curtain to, like, get myself to actually let go, because I didn't want to. But I think, you know, after it happened, you know, after, you know, the last time we saw each other, which then led into, like, months of, like, you know, intense communication and him kind of, like, obviously pushing me away and, like, anytime we communicated. It was like him finding some reason to be angry or fight. It took a while for me to tell myself not to reach out, because I knew that, you know, my constant state was, like, heightened anxiety and. And sadness and anger and that kind of stuff. And even once I let go and I was like, okay, I know this is bad for me. Like, my future doesn't include this. I took a long time to figure out, what does my future look like? Because it felt different from the way I felt about looking towards the future before this all happened. And I don't know necessarily what that is. I think it kind of is a mix between this experience and kind of the way I saw myself through, you know. You know, expressing myself publicly on the Internet. Everything felt.

[Anna]

Well, you stopped. You kind of disappeared.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, well, like I. I told Joe, it's like there were a couple times they, like, took my Instagram down, and I was just like, I don't care anymore. It feels good to not have it. And it felt really good to kind of move through the world being, like, just me.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

And I think before all this, like, just in the early days of Instagram, it was like, it felt really natural to me. Like, this is something I think about now is, like, how, like, the medium of social media is always changing. Like, you know, the stories used to be, like, Snapchat and that kind of thing. Like, back when I was like, really? Yeah. And like, back when I was really into Instagram and it felt so natural. It was like. It's just like we used to post so freely.

[Anna]

We. I used to just post a picture.

[Zoe Kestin]

Of whatever, and it felt like an extension of my. You know, now you have to.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, I was looking. I was going down Instagram the other day because I was, like, stir crazy, like, sleep deprived and sick as a dog. And I was just going on Instagram looking at everybody's posts, and I was like, oh, we have like a thousand, two thousand, three thousand posts, but none of us really post anymore regularly.

[Zoe Kestin]

I noticed that, too. Like, I go to a lot of people's Instagrams and, like, on the grid, you know, the last one is a couple months ago. Yeah. But now, obviously, it's.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It's all stories.

[Zoe Kestin]

It's all videos, too. Tik tok, which I feel really old. Like, I feel like I don't know how to use that as a medium. Like, it's very. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But it, like me, it's just like, crazy.

[Anna]

Very advanced and stimulating.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Means that, like, in our late 20s and early 30s, new ladies are still in your early 30s, but you were like posting everything on Instagram at all times.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, well, it was just like, simpler to me. It was just like a simpler kind of method. And like, I think even when I was like doing that, I had this sense where it was like, this is just like one app that's controlled by this company. Like, you know, who I am and like, what I want to do for work or career or whatever. What I want to do is like, I don't want it to be tied to like an app. Right.

[Anna]

The app is just like a tool to promote yourself.

[Zoe Kestin]

Like, it really sucks and I feel like it, it. It's just very, you know, one dimensional to like, have, you know, this kind of seriousness to your, you know, what you do as a person, which is just, you know, just modern day. It's like who you are is what you do. But how have that all rely on being able to use this one thing versus, like, being who you are in the real world. So. And I think there were personal reasons too. Like, just, you know, I loved being able to meet people out in the world and just have them get to know me as the person in real life versus them being able to, like, see whatever I posted on the Internet.

[Anna]

Totally.

[Zoe Kestin]

And I think that also, you know, contributed to like, you know, then Covid happened and so I was just isolating even more. But at the time, it felt like something I needed to do. And looking back, I feel like it was something that I needed to, like, you know, refine myself.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, right. Wait, are you on social media at all right now?

[Zoe Kestin]

I feel like, I mean, I've seen.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Your, like, Abby, and sometimes I see like a, like from Zoe and I'm.

[Zoe Kestin]

Like, yeah, like, I wanted to not miss out on what my friends were doing and interacting with people that I, you know, like, and care about, especially work. Like, you know, with my work, a lot of my interests have, like, shifted over the years. I feel like I want to talk about this. It's just like my whole life I thought I wanted to be in fashion and make clothes, and there was like a big shift for me at a certain point with that. And I wanted to, you know, be a participant in, you know, what happens on social media. Instagram, I don't use TikTok like that, but I honestly should because that's like, that's like the thing. But like I said, it's, it's.

[Anna]

It seems labor intensive.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It does, yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

You have to basically like, produce.

[Zoe Kestin]

I have friends who are like, telling me to hire a 19 year old to, like, help me edit the video.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And you have to speak in like, a specific flat monotone when you're narrating.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

And it's just not as, like, cute looking as Instagram. It used to be like, you know, you could look cool and make pretty looking images.

[Anna]

Your grid could all kind of have a coherent aesthetic.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

It's just like, you can only put a certain number of camera characters to the caption and it's simple and that's what it is. And now tick tock just looks like a little, like, cringe in some ways. But I'm a full consumer of it anyway. I find so many things on TikTok that I love.

[Anna]

Oh, my God, I can't stop.

[Zoe Kestin]

I watch.

[Anna]

The makeup tutorials that I get are getting so crazy. Like, women, like, drawing on their face with eyeliner. They're like, watch me do my makeup with one, like, lip liner and. But, like, scribbling it all over their whole face and then blending it kind of looking like makeup on. It's like, so psychic.

[Zoe Kestin]

It's like new. I don't know, a new humor, you know, outlet or something. Like, I used to think Twitter was like, the place where you would find the funniest stuff. But TikTok, it's like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Oh. So much of that stuff makes me laugh. But I feel completely, like, weird trying to even make something on that app. But sure, it's hard.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, what would you even do?

[Zoe Kestin]

I know.

[Anna]

Well, my day, I don't know.

[Zoe Kestin]

One of the things that I do is, like, I love when people do, like, house tours and show their, like, really nicely decorated apartments and all of their, like, trinkets and the things that they've collected that, like, mean something to them. And I feel like that's cool to see. And it is.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It's like hgtv but, like, in, like, micro.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And it's more real Social media forum. Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And I've just, especially over the years, like, really retreated into, like, loving my house. And I was telling you guys, I, like, moved last year.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, you are very domestic, which is funny. Do you have, like, any Taurus in your chart anywhere?

[Zoe Kestin]

I'm a. I know. I'm a triple fireside.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay.

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, I pro. I might, but I haven't looked at my whole chart. I'm a Leo. Aries. Aries.

[Anna]

Wow.

[Zoe Kestin]

Which I think is quite intense.

[Anna]

Did you find that Hunter was much of a male Pisces?

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, he was an Aquarius.

[Anna]

Really?

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

When's his birthday?

[Zoe Kestin]

It's February.

[Anna]

February 4th.

[Zoe Kestin]

I knew that because, oh, my God, he's an Aquarius. Well, he, like, wow, what a twist.

[Anna]

That's my mom's birthday.

[Zoe Kestin]

Three out of five of my boyfriends that I think of were Aquariuses, and they're my, like. They're my, like, opposite, you know, on the.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

On the chart. So his birthday was right around the time of my half birthday. So at the time I was like, that means something.

[Anna]

That's like me and Anna.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That's like.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

I don't know. Maybe it's like sister signs is what it's called. I don't know.

[Anna]

There's some signs that are Aquariuses are also very. With Gemini.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I don't think it, like, is necessarily.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Some paddle. But, yeah, I always thought. And I remember when I was with him thinking, like, oh, these other boyfriend. Like, everyone I've dated, it was an Aquarius. So I guess that's like the sign for me.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

No, it is. I mean, I have the same problem. I've talked about this before, but three out of five of my serious boyfriends have been Capricorns, and the other one is an Aries and one's an Aquarius.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. But, like, so obviously when I start to read and yeah, I was reading into it for sure at the time. Right.

[Anna]

All the signs were pointing towards the chateau.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

I mean, I. I would definitely. It's. If someone's like, come stay with me. The shadow. My mom would be like, absolutely.

[Zoe Kestin]

That was lovely.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

He's Aquarius, Sun, Capricorn Moon, and Cancer Rising. Okay, so that explains his sensitive side.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I don't really know what that means, but yeah, no, I mean, definitely, I would think of him as sensitive.

[Anna]

Sure.

[Zoe Kestin]

You know, he was tortured and wanted to be, you know, wanted to find connection. So that was definitely my experience. But back to your question, I guess, about, you know, social media now. I feel like it's still really cool to see what people are doing and to. Especially as a, you know, creative person, it's where you can, you know, show the things that you make and that you do.

[Anna]

And you like Pinterest?

[Zoe Kestin]

I love Pinterest. I use Pinterest for everything.

[Anna]

Oh, my God.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I have, like, a hundred boards.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, I can see that.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I used to do it a lot for crochet, and I was really into felting for a while. Like creating little, like, ornaments. Yeah, yeah. Like, it was like needle felting little dolls. And they're, like, insane.

[Anna]

Yeah. When I saw you last, you were telling me you were wanting to make plushies.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Anna]

Really good idea.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

What are you doing now?

[Zoe Kestin]

I'm making, like, the most, like, domestic, silly, like, wholesome things. No, I. I mean, as Joe said in the article, like, after, you know, the relationship I like, was so kind of mixed emotions about what I wanted to do. I mean, I wanted to launch my brand. I'd spent a ton of money on all of these clothes. The sample I gave you guys each one. And I have, I think it's like 1100 pieces of clothing. And by now I've moved them across three apartments, four apartments. And that first year and a half, two years through, like, when Covid started. I remember when Covid happened, I was happy because I was like, okay, I need more time. Yeah. But as time went on, every time I went to go work on it and look at it, I was like, I can't do it. I hate it. It's not good. It's like the, you know, nobody's gonna buy it. It's we, you know, And I don't know if those are an emotional thing, because, for example, I have one of my brothers, my younger brother, he's like five years younger. All of his friends always kind of followed what was happening, and they've always told him, like, when is she gonna do it? We want to buy everything. And he's always telling me, he's like, zoe, you've done the hard part. Like, you have it all.

[Anna]

I would have, absolutely.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. But there was something. It just, like, I don't know if it's just like, me being a stubborn, like, artist or something, where I was like, I can't put it out. Like, the vulnerability of it. And it felt. I didn't want people to see it anymore. And I think also at a certain point, like, the, like, the actual clothes, I feel like I started seeing things that reminded me of it, and I was like, okay, this isn't innovative anymore. It's too old. I designed it. I mean, I first did those, like, designs in, like, 2016, 2017. It took too long.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Garage or addicted?

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It kind of looks like weed slut apparel. It's like, it is like the, you know, like the lettuce hem.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And like the low cut shorts.

[Zoe Kestin]

Common consciousness. Yeah. I mean, I. For years, I was like, I'm just gonna burn it all. I don't know. There was like. There was something, like, cool about doing that. No. I've lugged it across so many apartments. I have a back door in my apartment.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You have to release it as, like, an archival Product.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And I'm never gonna make it again. There's only a. You know, there's only a certain number. Like, the grinders. I think I only have, like, 173 pieces, whereas, like, the.

[Anna]

You know, how many chambers are in the grinder?

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, it's like a. It's a. It's like a. What's it called? Airtight container grinder. It's a medtainer is what it's called. Okay, so it's got, like, a place for you to store your weed. Or I, like, roll a joint and put it in there to go sometimes. But, like, I have 173 pieces of those. But then I have, like, a thousand lighter leashes because that's what Alibaba, like, did as their minimums or whatever. But, yeah, I mean, I need to sell it because it takes up so much space in my apartment, and I've been lugging it forever. And it's like, you know, everyone in my life has told me, like, you need to get rid of it, like, spiritually too.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That's true.

[Zoe Kestin]

Like, every time I.

[Anna]

It's not sparking joy.

[Zoe Kestin]

No, it's really not sparking joy. But then I'll open those bags because they're all in these big black moving bags. And every couple months, I'll open it and I'll look. I'll be like, this is a good design. This is pretty good. But the last thing I want to do is build a website, take new photos, like, you know, create an ad campaign, like, start, like, you know, pushing it. It felt just so. Not the direction. It felt like I was looking backwards. And in 2019, I started working with this artist, this woman who actually. Her name's Elizabeth Haight. She actually used to write a sex com. She's pretty cool. She's like kind of the IRL Carrie Bradshaw. And she was making, you know, fine art. And she found me through some other RISD friends of mine and wanted to do home decor and, like, homewares. And through all of my working with factories, I just, like, knew how to make what she wanted. So I kind of got into that. And then I realized that my interests were changing, and that kind of led me. Well, that led me to a year or so of not making anything, which was probably the worst part of the whole thing was, like, I would go into my studio, which I had a whole separate room in my apartment at that time, and I couldn't. I had no idea what I wanted to do. I wasn't, like, inspired, you know, I Remember?

[Anna]

I mean, this is during.

[Zoe Kestin]

This is like, 2020, 2021.

[Anna]

Okay.

[Zoe Kestin]

You know, like, 2019.

[Anna]

Covid was just really. It was hard to do.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It was really dark.

[Anna]

I couldn't take a selfie because I was like, I have a haunted.

[Zoe Kestin]

I mean, there were years, like, I couldn't take selfies, but. And which was like, I was like. Everything I did, I was like, everywhere I went, I took selfies, like, for years. But, you know, 2019. I think for that whole year, I tried to convince myself that I was moving towards it and it was gonna happen, and that's what I needed to do. And I spent the last of the money I had saved on, like, building out, you know, starting a website. And then I ran out of money, and I had all this stuff, and I needed work. And then I would go into the studio trying to work on it, or sit on my laptop trying to figure out, you know, marketing. And I was like, I can't do it. It's not right. And then for another two years, I just focused on this job I had because it felt easy to just be creative for this other person.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

What was your job for this woman?

[Zoe Kestin]

For Elizabeth? Yeah. So I was like, you know, she had all these products she wanted to make, and I loved her. Her work, and I loved.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I actually remember, I think, you mentioning her to us the first time.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I mean, I had friends who were working with her before I ever met her. And I remember being jealous. Like, the work was really cool to me, and I thought it was, I don't know, something I wanted to be a part of. And so I think for a couple years, it was really easy to kind of just disappear into that and put all my effort into somebody else's work. And then after a little while that I started to get, you know, depressed about the fact that, like, I haven't made anything in so long. Like, I can't even go into my studio that has, like, all of these tools and supplies, and I can't even sit there for four hours and, like, just make something with my own two hands, which is what I feel like I've done my whole life.

[Anna]

Do you feel more creative now?

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. Yeah, it took a while. I think the first thing I did was, like, I just, like, started. I started making a couple, like, paintings, which is, like, not ever really been my thing, but it just felt easy. And it was kind of just making, like, interesting, like, color patterns and stuff, which just felt like the basics of what I've made in the past. And then I ended up buying a knitting machine, which is something I used back in school. And so I took, like, I don't know, a couple months to, like, relearn this tool and kind of just like, get into the. Just, like, relearn things. I tried, like, new mediums, and the job that I had, I started working, you know, with, like, this, like, field of, like, really cool home decor. And I feel like in Covid, I stopped buying clothes and started buying things for my house. It started, like, feeling like that had more weight to me.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Wait, I have a. Yeah, A fashion question for you. Because anytime that I've, like, googled you, you. You're wearing, like, a little bit of poochie.

[Zoe Kestin]

Oh, yeah. I just love.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Why? What's up with the poochie?

[Zoe Kestin]

I'm just obsessed with.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I love poochie too, but I would never personally wear. It wouldn't work for me. What?

[Anna]

I bet I would.

[Zoe Kestin]

I would look amazing. I'm wearing poochie right now.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I know.

[Zoe Kestin]

I know. Poochie sponsor me. I've been obsessed with poochie forever.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It's just. It's such a specific, cute thing to be into it. I think people are, like, into Gucci or Fendi. People don't think of poochie.

[Zoe Kestin]

It was so, like. I feel like it was so retro and so too colorful for people to wear for a while. And before, like, Camimichelli, like, became the new creative director for it, it was. You know, there wasn't new poochie stuff coming out. And I remember at risd, they had a bunch of stuff in the museum. And I just. I love color. I love bright colors and all sorts of.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, it's like, very New York Jewish bohemian. Yeah, that's, like, the vibe.

[Zoe Kestin]

And I feel like I wanted something that, like, showed my, like, personality and, like, kind of girliness and.

[Anna]

Well, the knit where, you know. And knit is great. I like Missoni for this.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, that's my other. I'm obsessed with Missoni too. And Missoni makes amazing home stuff.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

They do. They do.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. They're. They're collab stuff with Roche Beaubois is, like, insane. They're. They have this. You know, Roche Beaubois has the mahjong sofa. It's like puzzle pieces. Yeah. And they've done different clubs. They have a Missoni one, they have a Jean Paul Gaultier one, and they have a Kenzo one. The Jean Paul Gaultier one is really cool. It has, like a.

[Anna]

And it's like a modular sofa.

[Zoe Kestin]

It's a modular sofa. And the way that they do. It is like each piece has different prints and fabrics. There's a Kenzo one. Those are my top two. Missoni and Pucci. I just. I love that poochie scarf that I wore to the trial. I like, really didn't want.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Did you put a lot of thought into your look?

[Zoe Kestin]

I knew I had to wear like a suit because I wanted to look serious. Because every time I ever met with prosecutors, they were in suits and they also, they. And my lawyers were like, please wear a suit. And I hate wearing something boring. And I love scarves. So I just threw it on and. Yeah, I mean, I wear that scarf everywhere. Oh, yeah. I was wearing that bag too. That's my prized possession. It's like a. Apparently, according to ebay, where I got it, it's rare and it's a Y2K. But. Yeah, that's. Yeah, I love that bag. It's like my. My one prize possession bag. And it matches all of my. Everything that I own. Yeah. No, I have no reason for wearing poochie other than I just love it just.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It speaks to you personally.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Mm.

[Zoe Kestin]

And the color combinations are weird, which I like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

They are there and you can pull.

[Anna]

Off like a jewel tone you can wear.

[Zoe Kestin]

Why? What I'm missing?

[Anna]

Season you wear.

[Zoe Kestin]

Oh, I don't, but I want to do that.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

What is that? Your.

[Zoe Kestin]

Your color?

[Anna]

Oh, like soft winter, soft autumn.

[Zoe Kestin]

What are they called?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Your.

[Anna]

There's kibbe types, which is a different thing. And then there's like your kind of season and color.

[Zoe Kestin]

Your color story, I guess. Yeah. Based on your undertones and hair.

[Anna]

Yeah. I just.

[Zoe Kestin]

But what I am missing is I need some pastel poochie because everything I have is very tone.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, where do you get. Where do you even buy Pucci? Cuz I feel like real, real everything.

[Zoe Kestin]

This is from the real Poochie is.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Due for a revival because there's so many like, fashion brands that like, you know, every couple of years it's like a new, like an old fashioned brand new scabi. Yeah. Scar, Bottega, whatever. Somebody needs some like elder millennial creative gurus need to take over Pucci.

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, Kamimi take over Camille Michelle. She used to work for Marc Jacobs and like she kind of revamped it. I don't know how long ago. Probably not that long, like three, four years. And that's. My scarf is from her collection. And she's definitely, you know, made this kind of like new era of it. The only thing is it's a lot of like sportswear, like athleisure like the.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Leggings that I have, but every brand is doing that.

[Zoe Kestin]

Exactly. That's what easy and cheap, and that's what, you know, people are buying. That's what's making them a lot of money, which is great.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I feel like it's a lot of, like, Russian and Chinese oligarchs, wives who have plastic surgery and they have to wear athleisure because they're, like, wearing bandages underneath.

[Zoe Kestin]

And I do love athleisure, but the.

[Anna]

Chinese luxury market has been really influential.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. Isn't Japan, like, really good for. No, that's good for, like, resale.

[Anna]

Yeah, but I mean, like, Chinese people.

[Zoe Kestin]

Who buy luxury products, they're, like, determining customer base. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And it's funny how, like, every year or two, there's, like, a new scandal in the media where it's like, this designer did cultural appropriation by making a qipao dress, and they're all, like, so excited.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I mean, I love.

[Anna]

Love a chi culture. Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Did you guys see the Met show, like, China through the Looking Glass? It was, like, 2015, 2016.

[Anna]

I wasn't in New York.

[Zoe Kestin]

I don't know. I don't know when it was. It was not that recent, but it was all. It was called China through the Looking Glasses. All the first half of it was, you know, like, old Chinese garments from 400, 300 years ago. And then the second half was all, like, contemporary designers, like, inspired by Chinese designs, doing Orientalism. And I think, like, in. In fashion, that's always cool. Like, fashion is always definitely, you know, referential.

[Anna]

There's nothing wrong with a little Eastern influence.

[Zoe Kestin]

No, it's all really flattering.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I love Asian designers due to the. Do, like, the Asian to Asian transsexual thing, where they, like, literally just like, the Mandarin collar everywhere. Like Shu Shu Tong, which is a brand I like that they sell in essence.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It couples, like, the traditional Chinese dress style with, like, the CCP aesthetic where it's, like, kind of dull and gray. It's a kind of dull gray Communist wool.

[Zoe Kestin]

Okay. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Which I love.

[Zoe Kestin]

I. Yeah, I love. I mean, I feel like I do really love Chinese stuff because my grandmother used to go to China all the time.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Why? Is your family an import export family?

[Zoe Kestin]

No, my grandmother, she owned a tuxedo store called Lexing Lex Lexington Tuxedos. When I was growing up. Yeah. When I was a. Like, a toddler, I would go hang out there, and it was on the second floor on Lexington Avenue, and I would go, like, Hang out in the window with the mannequins. But she had, like, a tuxedo rental business. And. Yeah, my family's, like, at least on that side, you know, New York Jewish, who's from Brooklyn, and she just loved China. She went, like, all the time. And I have a headboard on my bed and with a matching bed skirt that she saved me. Wow. Really cool Chinese fabric. And she would always give me the, like, ink brush sets and lots of stuff. That was, like, her favorite thing. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Are you, like, fully Ashkenazi?

[Zoe Kestin]

Fully.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

From Poland and, like, Ukraine.

[Zoe Kestin]

Okay.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Belarus.

[Zoe Kestin]

I actually just saw my one grandmother from Cape Town today. And, yeah, my dad's South African.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

South African. Okay.

[Zoe Kestin]

But my mom's from, you know, New York. Her family's been here a bit, but, like, on both sides, we're all kind of from the same place. I asked my grandmother two days ago, and she said on her, you know, my grandpa's side, they're Russian. And then on her side, it's Lithuanian and Polish. And then on my other grandma's side, my mom's Polish and Romanian.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay.

[Zoe Kestin]

My sister did 23andMe, and it just, like, said 99ashkenazi. Just showed the whole of Europe. Like, the whole of Europe.

[Anna]

The whole world.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Zoe Kestin]

It was like a huge image of the. The map.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I. I just.

[Anna]

Mine was the same because Russian. And it was like. It was just Russian and Eastern European. I was like, that's like a huge. Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Why can't they do any.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Literally everything.

[Zoe Kestin]

Information.

[Anna]

Yeah. And then. Yeah. Like, Baltic, Lithuanian.

[Zoe Kestin]

So we're both a little Lithuanian. Yeah.

[Anna]

But different.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Because I'm not Jewish. Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But I have. I have a sneaking suspicion that you are somehow distantly related to Eli and. Or Adam Friedland, maybe.

[Anna]

Adam Friedland. Adam Friedland's from Cape. His family's from Cape Town.

[Zoe Kestin]

Oh, okay. Well, my family's from Johannesburg, but probably the same thing.

[Anna]

Who knows?

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I mean, all of the South African Jews know each other in my experience. Like, everyone that I've met, like, we have family that went back to the UK and to.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

All over the United States. And I feel like everybody knows everybody.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

We're deaf. Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. Like, when I went down, it's a small diaspora. Yeah. When I. Whenever I went down to Cape Town, like, I went for my cousin's bar and bat mitzvahs, and it was, like, huge. Like, every Jewish person in Cape Town came.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

So it's. Yeah. I feel like they weren't there for that many, you Know, generations. They probably were only in South Africa for, like, two or three generations.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That's probably true. Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I wonder how they got over there. Do you know, I have to ask.

[Zoe Kestin]

I don't know.

[Anna]

It's probably. There was probably some example. That's why I have idea.

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, my grandmother said that her mother, I think, was in Poland. She said that she went and saw her mother's home in Poland somewhere.

[Anna]

Okay.

[Zoe Kestin]

But, yeah, very confusing. It's, like, a lot. It's. You know, my mom's dad's family's all Romanian, and I don't know anything about kind of that end. But if. Yeah.

[Anna]

I have a question. We can cut this.

[Zoe Kestin]

Bring it on.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay.

[Anna]

I heard. So you.

[Zoe Kestin]

Okay. What did you hear?

[Anna]

Okay, you. Well, when you told us about hunter back in 2019.

[Zoe Kestin]

I told you in 2018? Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

No, no, wait.

[Zoe Kestin]

No, I remember telling you when you.

[Anna]

Came on the show, it was 2019.

[Zoe Kestin]

I know, but you told Anna. Yeah, I told Anna because I had met you when I had, like, just last seen him.

[Anna]

Oh, true.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And I was like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And we kept that secret.

[Anna]

Yeah, we really.

[Zoe Kestin]

I know.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

So.

[Anna]

And then all the stuff in the news, I was like, damn. I was like, wow, that's crazy. I really was, like, not running. I didn't run my mouth. I was really.

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, it's just, like. It was like, why?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You know, we're, like, praising ourselves for nothing.

[Zoe Kestin]

For keeping us.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

We're, like, doing a baseline courtesy to person. It's like, again, it's the Chris Rock black people versus Boop bit, where he's like, I take care of my kids. It's like. It's the baseline.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

But I heard from Ruby McAllister we'll redact that. I needed. I don't think it really matters, but she told me that the FBI broke down your door and that you had the laptop. No, the laptop from hell was.

[Zoe Kestin]

How do rumors get started?

[Anna]

Like, I heard that you had. The reason that you were not online was because you had the laptop from hell, and the FBI broke down your door, and you were so traumatized that.

[Zoe Kestin]

I mean, that. That probably stemmed from some truth, because it's just. I'm, like, so fascinated how a rumor like that starts. Somebody else who works for the New York Times, not Joe, a different person, couple years ago came, and she said, I had a very substantial tip that you were paid not one, not two, but $5 million to, you know, delete your Instagram. And I was like, girl, I wish. No, but she thought it was a really Valid tip. And she said it was serious. She works for the New York Times. But no, that didn't happen.

[Anna]

And you were paid to, like, I.

[Zoe Kestin]

Haven'T made any money off of this in any way. I have legal debt. So.

[Anna]

The opposite.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, that's the opposite.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

This is why I hate journalists, because they're both stupid and craven. Generally speaking.

[Zoe Kestin]

Generally speaking, yeah. Five million, she said. She said not one, not two, but five. And I said, I think if I. If that happened, I wouldn't be talking to you right now. Yeah, you'd be gone. No, but when they served me the subpoena for the grand jury, they came to my apartment on a random Tuesday, I think, And I. It was so weird because the apartment I was living in had a door on the. You know, in the lobby on the first floor that, like, sometimes didn't shut. Like, you. I. You would leave and it wouldn't shut all the way. And I had taken my dog for a walk, literally 15 minutes. I went to, like, a bakery and came back, and I must have not closed that door all the way.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

So I just came back from the walk, went in the door, went upstairs to the third floor where I lived, and there was, like, a business card on my door. And when I saw it said, zoe, call me. When I saw it, I thought it must be from my landlord. And I turned it around, and it was like, federal something, something, something. And I called my parents. I was like, what do I do? And they're like, you should call them. So I did. And they were like, we're in a car going to see somebody else, but we can be there in 20 minutes. Can we come now? And, yeah, and they came in. It was actually.

[Anna]

What happens when they serve you a subpoena?

[Zoe Kestin]

It was the guy who's now a whistleblower who.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

What?

[Zoe Kestin]

Joseph Ziegler is his name.

[Anna]

Okay. What's he blowing the whistle on?

[Zoe Kestin]

He's saying that people higher up in the government prevented him from investigating things further. And he was very gung ho.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Investing. What kind of thing?

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, he worked for the IRS. And so this was in 2021. This is in October of 2021. And I came home from my walk, and the business card was there. I called them, and it was him. And it was him and a woman. And they came in, and he was like, your name has come up. You know, here's a big stack of paper. You've been served this subpoena. And it basically said, you have to hand over any digital content that has anything to do with this person, his businesses, whatever.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But what does that entail? Like, personal correspondences? Like nudes?

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, literally, I. They had. They took. They ended up emails. They ended up taking a photocopy is what they called of my phone.

[Anna]

Whoa.

[Zoe Kestin]

So they. But when that happened, you know, that was the first time of many where he basically, they sat down on my couch and they were like, start from the beginning. And I told him, you know, like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

We were in the VIP room. He put on Fleet Foxes.

[Zoe Kestin]

I probably said that later.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

We listened to Red Scare.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, I literally probably said that. And I was like. And then we went to the Lou Dallas show, and then we went to Opening Ceremony. Yeah. And I've gotten in this, you know, repetition of how many times I've actually told that, like, chronological, you know, timeline over and over again. But.

[Anna]

But does a subpoena then mean you have to appear in court? Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Okay, well, so the first thing that happened was I got those that big. It was a huge stack of paper. And they basically said, you have, like, two months or something. This is the date, and you need to turn it all over. So for that first month or so, I was. You know, everyone in my family was like, okay, you need a lawyer. You need, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then once I did get a lawyer, I realized how much work you.

[Anna]

Have to pay a lawyer.

[Zoe Kestin]

I paid a lawyer. Which thank God I did, honestly, because I realized. I realized this year during the trial that if I didn't have a lawyer, that I would have had to correspond with the prosecutors and the government so many times. Whereas, like, especially. Well, I got the subpoena for the trial in April this year. So between April and June, when I testified, there were so many correspondences, and I can't imagine what that would have been like if it was just, like, me texting and calling them. Like, that would have just been, like, scary and weird.

[Anna]

But that also trial was. He was for the gun.

[Zoe Kestin]

That was the first one.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah. And then there was like, a second tax evasion charge, but. Okay, but this also sounds insane. I'm naive. But you're like a witness in a trial of a criminal defendant. It was a criminal. Not single case. Right. And you have to pay your own legal bills.

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, I didn't have to have a lawyer.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay.

[Zoe Kestin]

You know, I didn't have to have a lawyer, but it was a. You know, I didn't do anything wrong. But obviously it was like a very.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You're not the one on trial.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, no, no, I'm not on trial. But, like, everyone Told me, okay, you can't, like. Well, because you start getting involved in this. And then what I realized is they basically wanted to, like, see into digital traces of my entire life.

[Anna]

And what happens if you say no?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Then.

[Anna]

Then you're. It's a crime because you're not.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Contempt of court, Something like that.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. Every person I. You know, my lawyers were like, you can't say no. You're compelled to do it law fair. But the scary thing was, is, like, so like, I also knew this when I got the subpoena. Is like, Hunter used my laptop a lot. So I had realized, you know, eventually. And I never deleted them, but there were, like, a ton of files on my computer that he had downloaded on when he was, like, signing a document and emailing it to himself. I had a bunch of. That. He had downloaded a bunch of things onto my computer. So I knew I had to turn that over. But eventually I had to basically give over the digital contents of my life to my lawyers for them to make sure I wasn't turning over something that they don't need to see. That's like, you know, things. I don't want to be brought into this trial that would be public. And I mean, like I said, I didn't do anything wrong, but obviously I knew this was going to get, like, really public. So it was very scary to. You know, I had the. Eventually, I had to drop my phone off at a building in F. You know, downtown and leave it there for, like, seven hours. For them to, like, copy? No, they just, like, took a whole download of the whole phone.

[Anna]

What did you do while you didn't have a phone?

[Zoe Kestin]

I can't remember, but I remember. I remember being so mad that it, like, was like six hours and then seven hours.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It's like a cavity search. I feel, like, violated.

[Zoe Kestin]

And I had to wait in the city, and I live in Brooklyn. I had to do things and, like, just, like, wait around to go, you.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Know, and they're like, combing through all of your correspondences that are not Hunter related, which is like, whatever.

[Zoe Kestin]

Totally.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You say, like, talking shit on people and sending dudes to other people and like, whatever.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. It's like my. Literally my whole life is on my phone. But what's so funny is, like, it seems like when I. When I went to Delaware, I brought my best friend Phoebe, and they were so, like, they were really nice. They, like, let me bring her into my meetings with them in Delaware and that stuff before the trial. They let her come. The prosecutors, like, before I went to Delaware. I was like, can I bring a friend so I don't have to go there by myself?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Did you. Did you ever gain a rapport with any of them?

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, this is what I was going to say is, like, when we went into the meeting the day before the trial, you know, various people come in. At this point, I figured, okay, they're lawyers. This person works for the irs. And then there was a guy who was from the FBI. And once we were in the meeting and after it happened, and Phoebe and I went back to the hotel, she's like, zoe, you realize that FBI guy, he's like the tech guy. So that means he looked through every photo and, like, I don't know, like, just thinking about my interactions with him, like. And then the next time time I saw him, I was like, oh, my God. That guy's literally looked through every single photo on my phone.

[Anna]

Was he hot?

[Zoe Kestin]

He was, yeah.

[Anna]

Cool.

[Zoe Kestin]

And something also very funny that many of these people in this situation told me, but especially him, was that they all told me I have, like, an incredible memory, which I have other friends who have said that to me now recently. And they were like. And my lawyers have said that to me. They're like, zoe, you're. You know, they love you as a witness because you literally remember so much.

[Anna]

Which is interesting as a stoner.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But also, I know that's why you are a stoner, because you have an overactive mind.

[Zoe Kestin]

Probably.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, that's like, literally.

[Zoe Kestin]

But like I said also, like, I have that period of my life, I was taking photos of everything. So, yeah, in all of my kind of meetings with them, when they would ask me certain things, I'd be like, hold on, let me look through my photos. I can tell you where I was and what date that was.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, maybe that's the other thing. And boomer people mistook our access to records as, like, a sign of photograph.

[Zoe Kestin]

Good memory. Yeah. No, but if you asked me now, I'd still probably, without looking at my phone, remember certain details. But I do remember that FBI agent telling me me that I would make a good FBI agent because of my memory, I guess. I don't know.

[Anna]

That could be a good.

[Zoe Kestin]

But I couldn't because I smoked weed.

[Anna]

Right.

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, yeah, I feel like, yeah, you can't do that if you work for the FBI.

[Anna]

I think you can.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yes, you can.

[Anna]

If it's because it's like, you can get, like, it's medicinal, so you can say, like, you need it for your eating disorder or whatever.

[Zoe Kestin]

I mean, I'm Very into like true crime, you know, legal. Legal draw. I'm. I'm fascinated with legal stuff. So, you know, I was really interested in it from that perspective.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Smoke a cigarette even though I'm sick.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, we've all done it.

[Anna]

Yeah. Yeah. I think I would also be hindered by my smoking weed in being any kind of like a federal agent.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Cuz I do. I have a decent me. Well, my short term memory is really bad.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And then especially when I, I like couldn't find my eyelash curler yesterday and I.

[Zoe Kestin]

That's like a different thing. Like you can't remember where you put stuff. But I can remember where I was when I said something six years ago.

[Anna]

Yeah, probably.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Especially with like, if I see a, if I can just look at like a date in my phone and see like the amalgam of images, like I can like remember what I did that day. Even if it's just like screenshots or something.

[Zoe Kestin]

I'm like, oh yeah, it triggers things.

[Anna]

Yeah, totally.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You have like a Proustian memory based on shit you see on your phone. This is when I was like a raging bitch to my boyfriend.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And then you'll see a screenshot of something that you took that day and you'll be like, well, I screenshotted that because I, you know, I was angry about this conversation. I want to send it to my friend.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But this kind of experience makes you realize how like vulnerable we all are. Because like at any point in time somebody from like quote, law enforcement can show up and like seize our phones.

[Anna]

Anyone you know, could be part of a criminal trial.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And then you can like, there's just like records.

[Zoe Kestin]

I mean everyone over the years just imagined that my phone would get hacked and all of this stuff would disappear. And I kind of knew that it wouldn't. I was like, I don't think it works like that. I don't think it works like that.

[Anna]

Like disappear.

[Zoe Kestin]

Like I literally have so much documentation from that period of my life. And yeah, it's kind of also interesting to see like which like pictures they ended up choosing as like the documents in the trial.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Like one of the funny things that they chose was this photo I took of him in one of our rooms at the Chateau where like after, I don't know, one morning he, he left and took his car and he went to I think the Hustler store and like came back with like 20 T shirts, like five pairs of like knee high socks. He bought like all of this like kind of like touristy Junkie shit. But he bought this shirt that had the Adidas logo on it. And then instead of Adidas, it said addicted and it had like a weed shaped logo on it. And like that's the photo that they used in, in the trial. Like, there was no evidence of like crack in that photo. Yeah, but yeah, it's like when they asked a character.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

When they asked me about the photo on the stand, I was like, yeah, this was on this, you know, at this time at this place. And I just like, was thought to add in. I was like, I thought it was funny. The reason I took that photo is because the one drug he didn't do was weed.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, he never smoked weed?

[Zoe Kestin]

No, he said that weed was the one drug he couldn't handle.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like how?

[Zoe Kestin]

Like, he said that like pretty much all other drugs don't affect him. Like, you know, he could accidentally smoke heroin by accident and he wouldn't feel anything. Or we took mushrooms once, he said he didn't feel anything.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And how is this coffee sensitivity?

[Zoe Kestin]

I can't remember him drinking a lot of coffee. Honestly, everything he drank was vodka.

[Anna]

Yeah, you don't need coffee.

[Zoe Kestin]

He drank a lot of soda.

[Anna]

Could I have a cigarette? Too bad.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

No, it's fine.

[Anna]

Right, well, that's kind of a red flag. If someone really can't smoke weed, it means they have real demons.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, I know.

[Anna]

It means like, what are you.

[Zoe Kestin]

Because it's like, wait, I saw something, I think on Tik Tok that was like, if you get paranoid from smoking weed, it just means you're a bad person.

[Anna]

Yeah, you like?

[Zoe Kestin]

No, I don't agree with that.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, you probably had some like, weird, fucked up, traumatic shit happen to you. I don't know.

[Zoe Kestin]

I mean, paranoia, I think is different for everybody, so.

[Anna]

Well, it just means you can't like, sit with something inside of yourself.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, weed causes you. It's like the ayahuasca experience he did. You know, when we were, when we first got to la, we went to a bunch of those med men, like the fancy dispensaries, and he wanted to try every CBD thing ever. And I don't think it really did anything. But he like, you know, he got the CBD vapes, the cd, CBD sodas and all that stuff. But no, he would never smoke weed. And he'd also be wary of me smoking weed in various places because he knew that that was the one thing that like, other hotel guests might complain about.

[Anna]

Oh, weird.

[Zoe Kestin]

So he was like, if you're going to smoke weed, you have to, to be really careful and smoke it out of the window or go outside.

[Anna]

So annoying to hear from a little crack. Crack smoker.

[Zoe Kestin]

Most people don't know what that smells like. So if they smell it, they're like, what is that? Like, do you know what it smells like?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I do, yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

How do you know?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Because I live in a crack head infested zone.

[Zoe Kestin]

You've seen someone smoke it and they smelled.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I've personally seen people smoke crack, not my friends or relative. And I've, I mean, engaged with the scent.

[Anna]

Well, have you smoked crack?

[Zoe Kestin]

No. Let me set the record straight, dude.

[Anna]

Good for you. I would not be able, I'd be.

[Zoe Kestin]

Like, let me, let me set the record straight. Because the New York Times, after my testimony wrote that I testified that I smoked with him. And as soon as I got back to the hotel after leaving the courthouse with my lawyer, I said, look at what they wrote. And she wrote an email right there and they issued a correction.

[Anna]

I wouldn't be able to resist. I definitely would be curious. And then become extremely addicted.

[Zoe Kestin]

I mean, it was gross. It was really gross. The whole apparatus, the whole, you know, activity of it. It was dirty and gross and had a very weird chemically smell. But I didn't recognize the smell at all. I mean, I'm sure I've smelled it in New York before. But within like 20 minutes of going into that hotel room the first day he offered it to me, that was the only time he ever offered. And I was like, I'm good, like fine. And then I think by the second day after I'd stayed over and, you know, we spent all night talking and connecting and whatever.

[Anna]

How did you stay up and stuff?

[Zoe Kestin]

I don't know. Adrenaline.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, she was high on love.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I don't know. We went to Finale Cafe, came back and like he was like asking me about my, you know, keeping up with my work. And I was like, tell me about like, you know, your dreams and your passions and all this stuff. And he wants to tell me about his kids and his brother and. Yeah, yeah. And it was like a.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, the thing with drug addicts is that they're all like, the high functioning, intelligent ones are all really good listeners and good storytellers.

[Anna]

Yeah, There are a lot of, they can be a lot of, A lot of fun.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. But I'm pretty sure within the first day, you know, we probably, and this happened many times over was like, we would have moments where he'd like look me in the eye and be like, I tried, like, please like, trust me, I will never let you take a puff of this.

[Anna]

Wow.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. The time we took mushrooms. The time we took mushrooms, I was. It was the next day, and I was coming down, and I was sitting on a couch at this hotel near Central park. And I was, like, sitting on the couch and had the window open next to you, and I was just kind of, like, leaning out. And he came over to me and took up a pole of his pipe. And I guess he, like, went to go lean out the window and exhale. And the mushrooms were, like, still in me. And I feel like, in my brain. I, like, imagined me, like, going to kiss him and inhaling what he exhaled, and it freaked me out. And I, like, had a moment of, like, fear, like, real fear. And I remember, like, I must have been, like, kind of, like, up on my knees, like, leaning on the back of the couch, like, kind of, like, leaning towards the. I might have been smoking a cigarette or something. And I remember I, like, sat back down and was like, whoa, that was really scary. Like, I think something in me, like, almost went in to kiss you and to inhale that, and I got really scared. And he did the same thing again where he, like, looked me in the eyes and, like, I will never let you, you know, intake this. I will never, you know, give you this, you know, awful thing. Yeah.

[Anna]

Good for you.

[Zoe Kestin]

Thanks. Thanks. I mean, eventually, you know, after a little while, you realize how kind of gross it is, because it's, like. It's, like, dirty and ashy, and it's just. It's very gross. The actual, like, the stuff everywhere, it's.

[Anna]

It's got to feel awesome. That's why people do it. Like.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like I said. And I feel like people have read now at this point, and I said it in my testimony. Like, I never saw a change in him. So it wasn't like I, you know, saw him smoke, and we. We'd be, you know, hanging out or out in public or wherever, and I'd see him, like, feel really good or, like, excited about something.

[Anna]

Yeah. It didn't seem appealing because he.

[Zoe Kestin]

It didn't seem like anything changed. He was, like, still this character that was just so, like, vibrant.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

You know, in the beginning, at least.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

But. Yeah. Have you guys read my testimony? It's like. I guess it's like public record, not.

[Anna]

Like, the court documents.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. It's like. It's kind of funny to read it because it's the New York Post. No, no, no. There's like a. There's Like a place you can get it.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Joe actually said you can probably, like, download the transcript.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, the transcripts. And it reads like public record. Yeah. Like, reads like a. Like a legal trauma. It's, like, really funny. I remember, like. I don't know. I felt really calm that day, which was very strange. And, like, every time they asked me a question, I would say, correct.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Mm.

[Zoe Kestin]

I don't know why. It just, like, felt like that was what they say in the movies when you're on the stand and trying to, like, speak in the negative or the affirmative. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Handle the truth. Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

You can't handle the crack, but, yeah. I mean, that transcript has a lot more detail than Joe's article.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Was that a surreal experience? Like, coming face to face with him in the courtroom?

[Zoe Kestin]

Honestly? No. It was weird. It really wasn't. It felt, like really normal in a weird way, like, seeing him. The surreal experience was everything leading up to going into the courtroom.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay.

[Zoe Kestin]

Was, like, driving to Delaware, like, meeting with the prosecutors in a federal building. Like, staying in this weird hotel that they put me in. You know, driving with Phoebe to the courthouse, like, having to park and, like, walk in and see the. See the press and then go into a waiting room, because they had to keep me in a room so that I wouldn't see the other witnesses. And who were the other witnesses on that day? It was ex wife.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay.

[Zoe Kestin]

That. And I don't know who else that day. But, you know, and same thing with the grand jury. Like, they had another witness, I think, before me. And so, like, they have to keep us separate. So they keep you in, like, a room like this until, like, they've made sure that you won't pass them in the hall. But that all felt really surreal. And I was, like, very anxious and nervous. And then, I don't know, by the time I got on the stand, like, I told that story to, like, my lawyers and those and the prosecutors. I told it so many times. And when I saw him, it was just like, hey, long time. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, it was like. And he waved at you, apparently. Yeah, I didn't really see it, but. So Phoebe was in the press room. They let Phoebe, my friend, she wasn't allowed in the courtroom, but they let her go into this room that had, like, a live stream of the courtroom, and it had all of the press. And she said that apparently when that happened, because I wasn't actually really looking at him. I think I had looked down by the time he'd waved or something. And she. All of the People in that room were laughing. But when I left, he gave me a little smile. I mean, I don't know, it was like I felt bad for him. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, how do you feel about. I know you didn't comment to Joe when he asked you this, but how do you feel about his pardon from his dad?

[Zoe Kestin]

I don't know. It's like.

[Anna]

We barely did anything that wrong.

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, I think that's like, how do you feel like, as like an American citizen and then how do you feel as like this person who is an ex of this person? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, that's what I was thinking about because, like, the pardon was ostensibly for the gun charge and the tax charge, but it was a blanket pardon for crimes he may have.

[Zoe Kestin]

And isn't that apparently very unusual?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah, it's very. It's novel. Yeah. And it's like an 11 year pardon that starts with his time on the board of Burisma. So I can understand how people are like, well, this is actually, like, sketchy. It's sketchy because it's like a pardon for the Biden crime family or whatever and all of their dealings in China and the Ukraine. But on the other hand, it was the first time that I saw everybody on the right and the left agree for the first time ever, where they were like, okay, it's the right thing to do to pardon your own son. And it's like the most humane expression. Expression. And isn't it like we've ever seen from Joe Biden?

[Zoe Kestin]

Isn't it him kind of like, you know, taking, you know, taking the. The not taking a bullet, but like, it's. It. It's only bad for him. For Joe, like, it's just like bad for his legacy. And like, you know, he could easily have not done it to protect his legacy, to protect.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, the idea is that he lied because he. And who's the Haitian lady? Karine Jean Pierre, who was like his spokeswoman.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, they just leading up to it, they were like, he's not gonna pardon his son. And then he did. And people were really angry and livid about that because they were like, well, he lied to us and said he wouldn't pardon, but then ended up doing it Thanksgiving. That doesn't seem that. That doesn't seem that out of like, the realm of normalcy because, like, why wouldn't you strategically, like, lie and omit?

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, he did it after Thanksgiving.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You know, he's like a turkey they.

[Zoe Kestin]

Spent there for his family.

[Anna]

You know, you start thinking about what you're grateful for.

[Zoe Kestin]

And he's scared what it would be like for him to be in jail with Trump as president. Maybe. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I. I don't really have any, like, strong feelings towards it. I didn't think he would go to jail necessarily. I kind of imagined like a house arrest situation or something.

[Anna]

Were you surprised that he even got in trouble?

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, I mean, with the trial, I wasn't because it was like the evidence was clear. I mean, I don't have.

[Anna]

But I mean, even being taken to trial.

[Zoe Kestin]

No, that didn't surprise me because it was like there was something that was going to happen. It was, like, constant. It was like nobody was going to let it go. And, you know, after the grand jury, my Laura's were like, okay, you're done for now. We'll see if anything comes of it. And it kind of felt. It was annoying to me because it felt like something will happen. I just don't know when. And then I remember when I saw that he, like, got indicted, I think it was last December, like a year ago now, when they officially, like, you know, filed an indictment, and that meant he was, like, charged with a crime. And my grand jury testimony was, like, a lot more detail than my testimony of the trial. Like, the grand jury, I spoke about, like, you know, places we stayed, certain amounts of money that he paid for for things. Like, they wanted to know about certain credit card charges and things that he had written off on his taxes. And, like, when I did get the subpoena in April, then that's when they told me, okay, we're going to split all of your information between these two things. Like, one is only going to be about drugs and the other thing's going to be about money. But it was, like, felt good that it was like, you know, a conclusion that something was going to happen so that, like, I wouldn't have to, like, wait to see anymore.

[Anna]

Right.

[Zoe Kestin]

But I mean, you know, I agree with people saying that, you know, if he wasn't who he was, he, a regular person, wouldn't have been charged with that particular crime.

[Anna]

Why do you know why he got the gun?

[Zoe Kestin]

I have no idea. Like I said in my testimony, that was like one month we didn't speak. But I guess I was the only witness to him using drugs close to that date, because before me, he and his lawyers were claiming that he had gone to rehab, and they didn't really have evidence of. Of him using drugs between August and October.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Okay, do you think he's sober?

[Zoe Kestin]

Now he must be right. Like. Like his dad's the president. Like, don't they drug test him? Like, I don't know. Like, I hope so. You know, I imagine that he's a very different person than the person that I know.

[Anna]

Yeah, maybe.

[Zoe Kestin]

And I hope so. If he's not, then I. I feel sad for him. But, like, he's a kid, and I think, you know, like, his kids, his older kids are getting older and he should be there for them. And I hope he's sober because he was in a lot of pain and it just sucked. Like, his life sucked before. But, I mean, it's just funny, like, you know, everybody on the Internet thinks that he's this crazy person who's just as chaotic as you could possibly be.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

And I think, you know, he in some ways wanted to. Wanted to just. Just prove people right, that he was as much of a. Like, as much of a up as you could be. But, like, there was some humor to it. Like, he had self awareness. He did have self awareness, for sure.

[Anna]

What did you think of his paintings?

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, that was like a surprise to me. He never spoke about wanting to make visual art when we were together. You know, I. From the moment that I met him, I told him I thought that being creative in some way would give him, you know, an outlet to possibly get over it. And he told me that he gave up the chance to go to a writers program out of college and instead went to law school.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

The Indiana Writers Workshop. I always forget.

[Anna]

Iowa.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I don't know which one.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I always forget that people are lawyers. Like, everyone that's like. Yeah, trained political professional.

[Anna]

Well, did he pass the bar?

[Zoe Kestin]

I guess so. Yeah. Well, he said that, like, you know, he had a kid very young, and he had to, you know, start taking care of his family. And he. I don't know if he, like, I don't think he didn't want to go to law school, but he said that he always wanted to be a writer and knew that he really couldn't. And so when we were together, he always thought that, like, the thing that was going to save him was writing. And that's why I have, like, a ton of audio recordings.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Biden?

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. No, so I have, you know, whenever we would be talking about specific things, like, he would just, like, tell me to start recording things on my phone. Maybe I'll play. I'll play those for you guys off record. But he would be like, are you recording?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Please don't, because I don't want my phone to be subpoenaed.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. No, he always spoke about writing as the medium. And I just, you know, I told him, I told him, I said, you know, you need a purpose. I think you need to make things out of your brain. Like, you know, having some kind of, like, expression outlet will be some kind of purpose that might help you, you know, not retreat and, like, stay in the cycle and.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, do you feel like he was living under the shadow of his, like, prominent political family?

[Zoe Kestin]

In some ways, but I think he just, like, wanted to be a different type of person also that, like, he never probably had the chance to.

[Anna]

I mean, if Biden hadn't run for president, they would have been a very minor political dynasty. Like, yeah, he would have been the vice. He would have been a man. Joe would have been a man with a long political career who's the vice president of the Obama administration. And then Hunter could have.

[Zoe Kestin]

At the time, it was Trump was in office and when we were together, it was constantly like people were texting him, like, we need your dad. Like, and he, you know, he loved his dad and he would just say, you know, I think he has to because he's the only one who can, you know.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Did he ever talk to you about his relationship with his dad?

[Zoe Kestin]

Just that, like, you know, he loved him very much. I heard them on the phone, you know, a couple times. And whenever he did talk about him, it would be in the context of us talking about, like, I don't know, American history or something. And he would say, oh, well, you know, my dad, he like, passed this bill or he was involved in this thing that happened and, you know, kind of like praise his dad for various things he did. But no, you know, it's the same thing as what they say, like, publicly it should just all about, like, family and. Which. Yeah, I get it. But I think he knew, like, his clock was running out because it was probably going to happen.

[Anna]

Right?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Wait, what was probably going to happen?

[Zoe Kestin]

That his dad was going to run.

[Anna]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

I remember texting him in January of 2019. I'd seen an article that said, like, you know, Joe needs to run, but Hunter's gonna be a problem for him. And I texted it to him and he was like, I'm gonna be the reason he either doesn't run or I'm gonna be the reason he loses if he does. You know, just self deprecating stuff. But yeah, narcissism. Yeah, some negative narcissism. Yeah.

[Anna]

Wow.

[Zoe Kestin]

What else? I mean, I mean, there's. Yeah, it's quite exhausting like it is. So.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna]

I mean, it's a very interesting. It's interesting to be, like, a footnote.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. Not.

[Anna]

I mean, the podcast. I mean, Anna in, like, the narrative.

[Zoe Kestin]

I remember when I was. I was back in New York, and he had gone to Massachusetts for another attempt at rehab, and I was trying not to be in touch with him so much because I just knew it was bad news, but I obviously still was reaching out every now and then. And I remember listening to the podcast and being like, this is whatever you guys were talking about, I thought was really interesting. And it was, like, the type of thing that I would be like, what do you think about this? Or. And I. You know, I knew you guys were cool, so I was like, he needs to know about it, and they're like two hot girls, so he'll love it. But, yeah, I mean, he was very interested in, you know, cultural things.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

The zeitgeist.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, the zeitgeist, for sure.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I'm such a people pleaser. I'm like, oh, my God, he must have heard us say horrible things. Things about his father, and it's so mean and bad.

[Zoe Kestin]

If you did, he probably would have been like, you know, I understand her point. In some way, I'm.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I'm happy for dad because he seems, like, in his lane and moisturized and thriving. Thriving. Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I mean, I think whatever he's doing now, like, if he's sober, then it's the right thing for him to be doing.

[Anna]

Yeah, definitely.

[Zoe Kestin]

You know?

[Anna]

Definitely.

[Zoe Kestin]

But I don't know. It feels weird that it's been so long, honestly, like, Joe was the one who made me realize that it was, like, seven years ago that I met him, which is so weird. Like, we're. I don't know if I'm just, like, getting older and time's going faster.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

If that's it. But I don't know if it was, like, something that, you know, stalled me emotionally and then it was Covid or whatever.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Do you feel like it was a formative relationship?

[Zoe Kestin]

No, because what formed from it, it's just, like, a lesson learned. I don't know.

[Anna]

Well, that's not Nothing.

[Zoe Kestin]

No, totally.

[Anna]

It will be revealed.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I mean, it made me realize what I do really want, which is my future, which is, like, a healthy relationship.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, okay. In that article, you talked about how because of your association with Hunter Biden, it's like, kind of a defining element of your identity, and that's what other people see you as, and you haven't had, like, A serious relationship since, well.

[Zoe Kestin]

I had two smaller relationships that didn't last so long. And it was like, I just knew that they had negative, weird feelings about it. I had one. There was one guy I was seeing who was like. He would make these digs about the fact that there were still photos in my phone, in my icloud from that. And I was like, you know, I never, you know, I have all my photos in my phone and icloud from before that and after. And, yeah, you know, the phone does the, like, memories thing or whatever. I feel like once or twice, like a photo, and he'd be, like, judging me for the fact that it was there.

[Anna]

And, I mean, but that he probably would have felt that way about any of your exes.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, true. But then at the same time, if. If there was any mention of it, it was like, oh, she's like, you know, there's something gross about her that, you know, she's, you know, not doing, you know, not fully deleting all of these things. Memories from her life or whatnot. And the other guy I was seeing was very into, like, politics and, like, had, like, MSNBC on, like, all the time. Yeah. I feel like it was just really hard for them to not in some way judge me. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But do you feel like your inability so far to have a serious relationship, should it be something you want, is because these men that you meet do, like, a cursory Google search, and they're like, no. Or is it because you're afraid of getting hurt and are kind of cautious and cagey?

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, probably both, I think. You know, it's been hard to really, like, put myself out there because it takes a lot of work to go and meet people. Anyway, I got set up on a date with a guy by my stepdad, and we went on one date. It was good. It was fine. Second date, good, fine. Third date, I invited him to my house, and he realized because he knows me through my stepdad, that he. He didn't know my last name. And so he asked me my name. And then I remember on my TV, it had my, like, Google YouTube TV thing. So I know it said my name there. And I eventually told him that I didn't think it was working. And, like, I wished him the best, but, like, I don't know if this, you know, whatever. And as soon as I said that, you know, he said, I understand, blah, blah, blah. And then, like, the next day he was like, you know, I googled you, and, like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And just, you know, he was angry, I guess. He sent me a bunch of texts about that.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. So it's kind of nice also to. That's why I also, like, didn't for a while, didn't want that Instagram account back because it was, like, nice to, like, meet people and know that they couldn't, like, look me up that way. Yeah. But I mean, at this point, it's. At this point, I have to just go full throttle and just find someone who, you know, can understand it in some way.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

For sure, I guess, who, like, accepts it. Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. Accepts it also. It was actually a long time ago now.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Now that I think about it.

[Anna]

Yeah. And it was like any other, you know, unfortunately. Yeah. We've all had toxic relationships, but they weren't a matter of, like, public record and court testimony.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And they will be now. Yeah. I mean, do you think we're all.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, hacking.

[Anna]

Using Hunter as a sex addict now?

[Zoe Kestin]

I mean, well, if you count the aa.

[Anna]

I mean, when you knew him.

[Zoe Kestin]

When I Knew him, yes. 100%.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

I. I mean, I told him that plainly. I said, you know, it's. It's not just a crack addiction and alcohol addiction, but there's a sex addiction, too. And I think it's all just, like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Filling a void of just an adrenaline addiction.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And he did say, particular is good enough. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You, like, you milk it. Like, I understand that perspective. I understand their mindset. Like, you go to the farthest, like, extremity, and nothing ever hits, and you keep looking for more and more. It's. I understand, like, the mechanism of drug addiction, and that applies across the board to every aspect of your life.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I mean, the thing that used to, like, at first really kind of hit me with, okay, this is. There's, you know, no future. This is not good for me. You know, there's.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

What was the turning point was realizing, like, once we were in LA for a while and I had started going to my factories, he had his car out there, and pretty much every morning I would wake up around 10 or 11 and he'd be up, and within an hour of me being awake, he would crash and fall asleep, and I would take his car and go to my factories and do my meetings and buy my materials or whatever and come back by like, five and he'd still be asleep, and, you know, he'd wake up and then I'd say, okay, do you want to go get dinner? Do you want to do something? Blah, blah, blah. And, you know, more and more as it go on, he Would just leave and go places and come back with strangers that he'd meet. And I realized he would rather spend time with strangers than with me. And I think it was just at a certain point he realized, like, he didn't want to be reminded with the fact that I knew, like. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

He didn't want to confront the chief witness to his failure as a person.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And it made him feel so much better to be around a new person every night who is completely charmed by him.

[Anna]

Right.

[Zoe Kestin]

And, you know, I would constantly, you know, see him, you know, going out to go to the hotel bar and go and chat up the bartender.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

And ignore me. You know, to do that every single.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Time he got, like, a new lease on life.

[Zoe Kestin]

Exactly.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But that's, like, the nature of any sort of addiction. Not just drug addiction, but also sex addiction. Any addiction to me is, like, narcissism. And I don't mean that in, like, a pejorative way. I mean it in, like, the clinical sense that, like, you develop a resentment toward the people who know you the best because they see you for what you are. And even if they love you more than anything and they're willing to accept your, like, failures and follies measure up because it's too painful because you hate yourself so much.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Damn.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

So real.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. It's dark. Yeah. But lesson learned. I mean, like, it's. It's really, like, helped me understand, like, what, like, really strong and healthy people really look like. And, you know, even though I don't feel like, you know, I've gotten to a point where I, you know, have found, you know, romance for myself in a healthy way, moving forward. It's like every time I do, you know, meet someone or see people in a relationship and, like, see, like, you know, maturity and healthy, you know, communication and, like, real, like, love, it's, like, very clear by being how different, you know, that situation was like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And it's like sacrifice and compromise always.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, it's, like, always just, like, really, like, give and take and sacrificing compromise. And.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, it's funny, because I asked. I was, like, so brain dead leading up to this and didn't do any preparation and was, like, really ashamed. And I asked a bunch of my guy friends. I was like, do you have questions for Zoe? And all of them were like, is she single?

[Zoe Kestin]

I am single, but I don't go out of my house that much, and I need to. Yeah. My new thing is that I'm learning how to golf. I know. Well, I love the outfits.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Wait, you should do a golf line.

[Zoe Kestin]

I know. Well, I found an amazing golf line in Palm beach that's actually made for, like, tweens and teens, but it's got, like. It's called Marie Birdie Marie. I don't know. I found it at the PGA Golf store down there, and it just has, like, cool, like, crazy prints and flowers. No, I actually am quite, like, interested in the way the sport works. It's, like, very.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Technical, mathematically. Like, scientific. Like, you have to measure the wind, and you have to measure, like, and take. You know, try to figure out, okay, if this is happening, then I have to, like, change the way I hit the ball this way. And I love that you don't break a sweat. Yeah, I love that. It's like. It is kind of Jewish. Yeah, it's chill. You can, like, smoke weed. You smoke cigars. You play music on the golf course, on the golf cart. And then.

[Anna]

Do you have a set of clubs?

[Zoe Kestin]

No, not yet. I only took a couple lessons I don't have. But what I was gonna say is I took a couple lessons, and the guy who gave me the lessons told me last week that I'm now, like, good enough to go to the range by myself and try.

[Anna]

Okay.

[Zoe Kestin]

So the plan was to, like, get dressed up, go there, and, you know, any guy that wants to give me a lesson, I really want to learn.

[Anna]

That's really smart.

[Zoe Kestin]

But I was actually, like, sore from it. Like, it felt like a workout the day after.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I believe you.

[Zoe Kestin]

But it was, like, cool that I didn't, like, get all gross and sweaty from it.

[Anna]

Yeah, right. Low impact.

[Zoe Kestin]

Low impact. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But it is a lot of core work.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, well, it's like. It's like a move and, like, a way that you. I've had to, you know, bend my knees, bend my back over, like, position my body that I hadn't done before, so felt really, like, hard and uncomfortable and unnatural. And so the days after I did it, I was really sore, which felt cool.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And you're working on homewares.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, I. You know, I've, like, built up Elizabeth's brand, and, you know, we work with Bergdorf's and we work with, you know, some other retailers. We've sold stuff at various stores in, like, the Hamptons and in Dallas and, like, it. I don't know. There's something that I love about making those kinds of products, but I also am still kind of just unsure because I want to make all sorts of things. I think there was, like, a. A shift for Me, where I got kind of disillusioned with, like, starting a fashion brand because it just seemed so difficult and, like, took so much money and felt like, okay, there's hundreds of fashion brands, like, why do we need, like, another one?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And they, like, appear and disappear in the course of, like, one or two years. It's crazy.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Lingerie is, you know, windy.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

But so much of it sucks.

[Zoe Kestin]

Like, well, I will sell my stuff eventually. My friends tell me I just need to do like a pop up for a weekend in the city. Like, I don't have that much. You know, I've got like 200 pieces of each style. But it just kind of felt like redundant. And it felt really hard to, you know, have a profitable business making clothes. And as a consumer, I felt like I wasn't buying clothes as much anymore as I used to.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I feel like everybody just buys, like, vintage stuff.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. That's what I do. And I don't know, I think there's something like more like art that's, you know, for the home. Like whether it's decorative objects or things that you buy to hang on your wall or. I just am really into this idea of, like, collecting things that hold interesting meaning and value. And it's the type of thing where, like, you don't use it, like, you don't wear it down, like clothes. And you know, when you make clothes somewhere, it's the way that things are made these days is not the same. Like, things get worn out really fast. They have like a way, you know, shorter lifespan and I don't know, there's something about making objects that just feels more special to me. But I'm, you know, here in New York. I don't know, it's like in New York, I've just been, like, around people making a lot of, like, fine art, which feels more like the process that I want to do where it's like you can take months to make something and it's just one piece and you can assign it like a high value, which feels like the way that I've worked because I'm not good at working fast. Like, I like to just take as much time as I want, which is not very, like, smart and efficient, but.

[Anna]

That'S how there's a market for that.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Anna]

It's artisanal, it's bespoke.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That's like the reasonable, normal way to make art. It's like you take your time.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. You figure out your vision and it feels like more true. Like you don't have to Force it to be, you know.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

At a certain price point. And I just have to move fast, like fashion. I was like, after a certain point, you know, I was like, how do people make two collections a year? It's like, I can't. Like, how do people make one collection a year? It's like, I'm not even buying clothes that often anymore, and I don't know many people who are. But, you know, I think especially just like, over the last couple years, in my whole life, like, I. I've wanted to make a lot of different things. I. I want to make. I actually. So I did make a couple. You know, the small line of stuffed animals, which I'm sure.

[Anna]

I'm really curious about.

[Zoe Kestin]

I'm sure Leah would love them.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I'm very curious. Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

And I made, like, you know, sweaters for my dog. I want to. I made some dog beds and toys. And, like. I don't know, there's something about, like, the things that I'm making right now that's really, like, wholesome and, like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Childish. Which is really funny to think about to going from, like, weed slut to making, like, kids stuff, but at the same time, like, it's also very authentic.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That's another funny thing.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

And, like, the wheat slut stuff was also very me.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But it was, in a way, even though it was called weed slut, which might give some people pause, was very, like, wholesome and childlike, which made it.

[Zoe Kestin]

Very difficult to have serious conversations. Like, every time I talked to someone seriously about what I was working on. On, it was just. I couldn't not say that without it being, like, right. Awkward and weird.

[Anna]

But there was even, like, an innocence that we'd set project.

[Zoe Kestin]

And there's an innocence to me. I mean, I feel like it was, like, about, you know, do.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, do you feel like you've gotten any, like, blowback? Because I haven't seen it personally, but I'm sure you have an article, like, in general, just, like, being, like, Hunter Biden's girlfriend or mistress. Like, you would think that that would lead to accusations of you being, like, a slut or a whore, but I haven't. Strangely, I have not seen much of that.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Which seems to suggest to me that there's, like, some justice in the world because people can, like, sense that you.

[Zoe Kestin]

I don't think. Yeah, I don't think I've had, like, blowback, like, to my face or seen it, but it's kind of like an undercurrent, like, kind of just Feeling like, how is somebody going to understand something more serious about me, you know, when. When that was there? And, you know, I think the dancing thing, like, it was something that, you know, had to do with the fact that I was really young and, like, I really did. Like, I still do see, like, a value. Like, I learned a lot from the experience. But it's something like, once you understand what it is, it's. It's really not something that has a long lifespan because it's really. It's really hard on you emotionally and physically and all that kind of stuff.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Well, it's funny because when you meet girls who are like strippers or dancers or whatever, a lot of the time you're surprised because they're not really craven or jaded. And they're like. They're wholesome, quite innocent. Like Mariah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, those.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

The.

[Zoe Kestin]

When I first started dancing, like, I expected the women in, you know, the.

[Anna]

Club, in the locker room, like, vicious and competitive.

[Zoe Kestin]

Vicious, competitive, degenerate, like, to be, like, chaotic. But they were, like, really, like, maternal and wholesome and would bring their, like, super healthy lunches and dinners and like, just, you know, kind of the way that they interacted with each other.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

And they're reading, like, their K punk anthology between shift and snacking on carrots.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, snacking on carrots. It was kind of like we all just knew what we had to do to make money. And, like, it was like, you know, most. For pretty much all of them, it was like it was a joke to them. It was like it wasn't. There wasn't a seriousness to understanding, like, you know, why we were able to make money by being, you know, basically entertainer and companion. It was like, what I tell most people is, like, when you, a dancer, you have to pretend like every single night is the best night of your life. And you have to pretend like every single night is. Or every single customer that you meet is like the most special. It's the special. The most special night. Or, you know, and you have to be the person who's going to give them that experience. It's like New Year's every single night. And, you know, yeah, that's completely exhausting. And everybody who works there is like, no, this sucks. Like, I don't want to pretend that it's the best night. And it's so draining that way. But I imagine that's like, what it is for a lot of people who work in, like, nightlife, like DJs and.

[Anna]

Well, I bet we talked about this last time, but I was a karaoke hostess.

[Zoe Kestin]

Same thing.

[Anna]

Same thing where it's like you have to literally pretend you're, like, in love with someone and singing Wonderwall and looking.

[Zoe Kestin]

Into a Korean and pretend like tonight is going to be the best night of your life. And then tomorrow and we're all again.

[Anna]

And let's do shots and.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And.

[Anna]

But, yeah, it's really. It's not sustainable.

[Zoe Kestin]

And after, you know, coming back from LA and with Hunter, it was like, the last thing I could do also was, like, pretend that, like, I was, like, you know, going to have the best night of my life. And, I mean, I don't even go out to bars and drink and go, you know, to events and things, the regular things the way that I did six, seven years, seven, eight years ago, because it's. It's too much. Like, I would much rather, you know, you know, knit and go to a movie and, like, all that stuff. Like, you know, it's. That is way more fulfilling to me now. But I don't know what the point of this, what we were talking about, that was, like, going to bring it back to something.

[Anna]

Yeah, I forgot. Forget what the question was.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I don't remember either.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, I. I feel like you, by.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Virtue of being, like, handy and a craftswoman, should just be the next Martha Stewart, because there's, like, an opening in the market.

[Zoe Kestin]

I would love to. I have to be very vicious. She's like cutthroat, though. I didn't watch the whole documentary, but she was like. I remember seeing the clip where she was like, it's hard for me to date someone because I really don't care about their feelings. I know.

[Anna]

I know what she's saying. You're much warmer.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, I do care about people's feelings.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I know, that's true.

[Zoe Kestin]

So it's hard, but, like. No, she's very, very smart, I think.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

You know, But I understand her position because she's like an older woman and it's, like, past the point of, like, being, like, youthful and sensitive and caring about sentimental things. And you just, like, understand that you have a very limited.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And there are certain other things that mean more to you.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. Well, yeah, I would like to do a lot of things. You know, I would like to get rid of all the wheat slut stuff. I'd like to sell it.

[Anna]

I'll buy some. Let me know.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I'm gonna do a really, like, lame school Squarespace website and just take some pictures. Yeah. My friend Phoebe is like. If you just, like, Get a pop up for, like, two days. It's like, people will just probably get through it. It's not, you know, it's not that much stuff. I just. It's like there's something that is just like, I can't look at it sometimes. Yeah, but no, I mean, at this point, like, you know, I didn't really talk too much today about, like, some of the, like, really crazy just, like, scenes that I can remember from this experience with Hunter. And honestly, like, even when I was living it, I was like, this is so insane. Like, this is like something in a movie. And, you know, I hope one day that I can. Not one day, one day soon that, like, I can, you know, pay off my lawyers and just make, you know, a little bit of money off of this. And I think that there's a lot more that people would find entertaining from what I have seen.

[Anna]

For sure.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

No, that's very layered.

[Zoe Kestin]

Very layered. But, like, things were, like, constantly happening. I was like, dear Nora, I didn't. I need to see it. But I have. I have heard, like, people say the story is, like, similar. I know that she, like, meets someone and gets married from the story, like.

[Anna]

An oligarch as a. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I mean, it was, like, out of the club into an adventure, I guess. And it moved, you know, across so many locations and scenes and with different characters. There were so many, like, weird and strange people that ended up into those, you know, moments because of the types of people he would connect with. And.

[Anna]

Yeah, in his memoir, he talks about some person named, like, Bicycles.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, I know her real name. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She lived with him in dc.

[Anna]

The memoir was, like. It had details like that, but it was also fairly neutered. Like, reading it, you're kind of like, okay, obviously everything I'm reading has been, like, approved.

[Zoe Kestin]

It's very grazing over the detail. Like, just like, the kind of. It was very generalizing.

[Anna]

I thought it's much more fun.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. She would call him all the time, and he had. He had other people, you know, like, you know, we met, like, a bunch of people in LA within that first month, couple weeks, and he would get stressed out because all these new people he would meet would start calling him and being like, you know, I'm like, you know how I was talking about looking for a house? Like, will you come with me on this tour? Like, I want your opinion. Like, people wanted to be his friend, and he would start getting stressed out that all these new people, like, were asking, like, for his, like, would you.

[Anna]

Describe him as people pleasing.

[Zoe Kestin]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Anna]

That's tough.

[Zoe Kestin]

But also it was like a kind of like, you know, it was like an altruism thing. Like, he just wanted to be something to the people that he met that would help them.

[Anna]

Yeah. He wanted to be, like, good in somebody's esteem.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And as soon as, you know, it would be like, once it got too real for him, he would then go find somebody else. Yeah. There was one woman we met at the Chateau who was wanting to move to la. And he told her he would go look at all these houses with her and she really loved him. And we all hung out at the hotel together and she would keep texting me, like, when are you? Like, I'm going to tour. Can you come right now? And he's like, now she wants me. Like this other woman who was a house mom at the strip club, Crazy girls in la. He ended up bringing her back to the hotel. She's like an older woman. And all of a sudden, like, she's like, my house. Apparently somebody broke in, like, or my house is on fire or something. And it was all the way in Long Beach. And he gives her the keys to his car, and then she doesn't come back for two days. And the next thing is. Yeah, it's just constant. It was constant. And as that went on, I realized I was like, what am I doing here? Yeah. I was like, yeah, it was too.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Crazy because he was like a boundaryless person totally. Who couldn't bear the consequences of a lack of boundaries.

[Zoe Kestin]

And he just wanted to, you know. But the other thing is he wanted to get to know people. Like, he liked getting to know people. As soon as he would start talking to someone, he, like, really wanted to understand them.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But once I think that that's the other thing that, like, defines all drug addicts who are of higher IQ or whatever. It's that they really want to, like, they have a death wish. They don't exactly want to die, but they want to disappear and not feel themselves anymore and want to get.

[Zoe Kestin]

Want to live through these other people. Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Which is why they are at times such good friends and such good listeners.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. You know, I also think, like, like, he is a creative, like, me at heart, and there's something like, you know, introspective and, like, he would come up with ideas that, you know, I thought were interesting. And that's just like a type of personality that I really, like, understood. And I think that is known to be something that's, like, you know, associated with Being susceptible to addiction, they're, like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Very porous and have. They have high self awareness and like, are fundamentally attuned to their own failures and shortcomings.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And they're also just like, looking for, like, guilty and like, looking for something.

[Anna]

That, like something authentic and that feels, like, good and. Yeah, I get it.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. Which is why, like.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

But they can't. They can't, like, acknowledge the fact that, like, reality. I mean, this is like something that I think we all struggle with is like, you can't acknowledge the fact that reality is much more disappointing than you want it to be.

[Zoe Kestin]

Definitely.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Like, you're like an eternal idealist.

[Zoe Kestin]

Definitely relatable. Yeah. And like, you know, I don't know, you know, how he ended up making paintings, but I feel like, you know, I saw a photo of his studio and, you know, I love, like, I love interior design. I love, like, seeing how people set up, you know, their creative spaces. And when I saw. Saw it, I was like, you know, I. I'm happy. Like, I did envision a space like that for. For him, for you and for me. For me. No, I mean, did you find it.

[Anna]

Interesting that his practice also included holding.

[Zoe Kestin]

A glass so weird up to his mouth? I don't know how he found that. Yeah.

[Anna]

I mean, but I was like, it's.

[Zoe Kestin]

Because he's smoking crack. Yeah.

[Anna]

He loves.

[Zoe Kestin]

He needed oral fixation.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, he needed that so he would make the work.

[Anna]

They were also like, similar tool.

[Zoe Kestin]

Who gave him that idea? I don't know.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It was the voice of God.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I just like, makes sense.

[Anna]

You draw inspiration from your life.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just do think he should write, though. I don't know. He. He had like, a bit more development. He would.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That he can and he should and he will.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Yeah. Hope he does.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Thanks for coming on this show, Zoe.

[Zoe Kestin]

Are we done?

[Anna]

Yeah. We were over two hours.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I could keep going.

[Anna]

What? I mean, no, it's.

[Zoe Kestin]

I mean, I'm. I'm depleted, you know.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Wait, can I ask an UNPG question?

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

What was his favorite sex position?

[Zoe Kestin]

I have to think about it.

[Anna]

Did you have sex every day? Piledriver.

[Zoe Kestin]

I said that on the last. But it's very novel. I mean, it's just very exciting. I don't think it's something that, you know, I would do regularly. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think it was like. Like face down with my legs together.

[Anna]

You know, I call that the coming position.

[Zoe Kestin]

Something like that. I don't know. I can't really think about it.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah.

[Anna]

I Don't.

[Zoe Kestin]

Like a lot. Yeah.

[Anna]

You guys have sex, like, every day.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. During that time period.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

And something Joe asked me about, which is so funny, is, like, he was like, what do you think about the fact that, like, you know, he has all these, like, photos on his laptop? And, like, why was he taking all those, like, selfies and, like, photographing himself and, you know, like, what.

[Anna]

What do you think he's an artist.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

What do you think about the fact that he's, like, a, you know, some form of a sex icon or whatever? And I was just like, you know, I think when I first met him at that time, that was something that was very exciting to me, was like, being an exhibitionist or voyeur and seeing myself in that way, and I liked to take photos of myself. And I think almost immediately, we kind of clicked on that and it excited him. And I remember noticing a period where almost all of a sudden, he was just taking selfies of himself everywhere. The photos of him. Him in the gay AF T shirt from the chateau. That was like. Those were. That shirt was from the Hustler store. Same time he bought the addicted shirt. And, like, I don't know, all of a sudden I just started seeing, like, mirror selfies in his phone all the time. And I just said to him, I was like, you're such a millennial now. Like, he just, like, really was.

[Anna]

It sounds like you were influential.

[Zoe Kestin]

I think so. In his practice, I. I don't know if he would have, like, had all of that stuff on his laptop.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Was it for me?

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I don't know.

[Anna]

Damn.

[Zoe Kestin]

We made him feel empowered in some way, which also probably wasn't, like, good for him in the end. Well, but now, I don't know. He wanted people to see him naked, so they did.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

That's true.

[Anna]

That's the thing about exhibitionists.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Yeah. It's like the naughty thrill of being caught is a part of it.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And it's like the main part. It's kind of like the same thing I thought of when I heard about the laptop being left at the store.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I was like, it's like you wanted to get caught.

[Zoe Kestin]

I was like, of course he did. Yeah. Like, in somewhere deep down or not deep down, like, he wanted to just let it all out because it was just so.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

To see in bc.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. And, like, it would have just been worse if it was something for somebody to find out.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

And, like, part of him just wanted it to be exposed, I think.

[Anna]

Right. Rather than living with the fear of, like.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And yeah. So when people, you know, ask me, like, oh, like, do you think he really did leave his laptop and, like, not pick it up? I was like, 100. Yeah, he had multiple laptops. One time he left it at an Apple store and when we went to la, he asked me to get my friend to go to the Apple store and pick it up and mail it to us in la. And that was just only one of them. So he definitely did that. Totally, totally. Not careful in any way. Disinhibited fully.

[Anna]

Behavior due to drug use.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. He wanted to be seen.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

You know, for sure. But at least it's all out there and now he's pardoned, so he can just go on with his life, I guess.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

And I'm gonna go in with mine and I'm gonna, like, you know, understand.

[Anna]

I am not worried about you in the least.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

I'm not either.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

I have so many things to do. I. I do have a lot of things that I'm excited about working on and. Yeah, I just feel like it's better that I just, like, tell people what they want to know about this and move on, you know, Totally. Instead of, like, be like, oh, it's a secret, like, I don't want to talk about it, you know?

[Anna]

Right. Or being like, yeah, just like a Daily Mail headline.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. I, like, need to build up that Google search. I need to start putting other things. Now this episode will come out and that'll be up there on the Google search instead of Daily Mail.

[Anna]

Is there anything you want to plug?

[Zoe Kestin]

Keep a lookout for when I do a pop up to get rid of all this stuff in my apartment. And hopefully one day there will be a movie about all this stuff and I can get somebody cool to play me. And you'll hear a lot.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Roberts.

[Zoe Kestin]

Oh, I love that. I love her. Yeah. No, there are, like some very funny scenes that I can think of.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

It's gonna be Rachel Senate.

[Zoe Kestin]

Oh, my God. Yeah, I love it. She's got the nose.

[Anna]

She's got the nose.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

She's the most Jewish coded non Jewish person ever.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, she's not Jewish.

[Anna]

She's not Jewish.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah. Yeah. There was. I'll say one more thing. There was one night that we went out to. It was the night we went to Lucien, actually. And we went there for like a dinner at like midnight. And then one of his drug dealers, like, invited us to Tao, the nightclub. And so we went there and when we got to the bar, we were like, dancing, whatever. We got to the bar and we were waiting for drinks and these two Russian guys came up to us and gave us drinks and drank them and I felt fine. And like, shortly after, it was like three in the morning, we went back to the Four Seasons and he was like, I feel drunk. Like, I never feel drunk, like. And he got super paranoid that the Russian guys did something to his drink. And I was just like, no, you're crashing. Like, you've been on too many drugs. You've been drinking vodka for probably 48 hours straight. And yeah, the various characters are just like. I mean, it's just like too many random, like, things that are just not very believable, honestly, that I can think of. So, yeah, I've written it all down at one point. And like, during the trial, like before the trial, I was like, trying to make sure I, like, remember things that they were. Bless you. They were like, I was trying to make sure I remembered certain things so that, like, I didn't say something that wasn't correct on the stand.

[Anna]

Right.

[Zoe Kestin]

So, yeah, TV people, you know, keep a lookout, write me an email. But yeah, thanks for having me on.

[Anna]

Thanks so much for coming back.

[Zoe Kestin]

Yeah, this is really. It was fun. I hope it was, like, different from your regular programming.

[Anna]

Definitely.

[Zoe Kestin]

Well, who was the last guest that you had on?

[Anna]

I don't remember. It's been a while.

[Zoe Kestin]

Been a while.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

Yeah.

[Zoe Kestin]

Okay, so it'll be like a fun change.

[Anna]

Yeah. We haven't had a guest in a bit and I think the. Yeah, the girls and K's will definitely appreciate the sun. Straight guys too, honestly. Everyone. See you now.

[Dasha Nekrasova]

We'll see you now.

[Zoe Kestin]

See you now.