Nothing Left w/ Evan Barker

Summary

Red Scare Podcast: "Nothing Left" w/ Evan Barker (August 3, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this lively and revealing episode, Red Scare hosts Anna Khachiyan and Dasha Nekrasova are joined by Evan Barker, author of the new best-selling memoir Nothing Left: Confessions of a Democratic Operative. They dig into Barker's personal and political journey, her insider perspective on the decay of the Democratic Party, and the rise of progressive movements from someone deeply embedded in their inner workings. The conversation is candid, irreverent, and punctuated by both bleak observations and moments of levity. If you want a personal, unvarnished look inside contemporary Democratic politics—and the psychic toll it takes—this is essential listening.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Evan’s Backstory and Motivation for Writing

• Roots & Upbringing: Barker grew up in a blue-collar, union, Democratic family in the Midwest, with a complicated personal background (including health issues and a mother who married six times). This context shaped her early political allegiances and drive for economic security.
  • "The original title of the book was going to be Born Blue. Because I was like, born blue. Literally. Yeah. Because I was sick when I was a kid and then... born into a blue collar Democratic family." (05:23)
• Health and Education: Born with a rare cilia disease, health insurance was always a core concern. College was pursued not as a means of status, but as a vehicle for security.
• Early Political Involvement: Inspired by the Obama campaign in high school, Barker threw herself into Democratic politics, working her way up through campaign jobs after surviving various service industry gigs and enduring economic precarity (07:28 – 08:06).

Inside Democratic & Progressive Politics

• Transition to Political Fundraising: Barker became notable for her directness as a fundraiser, particularly in leveraging her background and “feminine wiles.”
  • "I really enjoyed taking the money of really rich people... I was, like, scrappy." (14:05)
  • Memorable anecdote: Gaining access to big donors like Tom Girardi through clever exploitation of social cues and strategic self-presentation. (15:03–18:45)
• Disillusionment With the Party: Despite starting as a centrist, Barker became dissatisfied with what she saw as the Democrats' performative activism and the emptiness of resistance politics.
  • "I got disillusioned by the establishment too, because I felt like they were just anti Trump. And they just talked about abortion, and I never really cared about that issue that much." (16:16)
• The Privilege Paradox: In leftist/progressive circles, Barker found herself simultaneously the least privileged person present but constantly asked to "check her privilege" due to her being white, despite her background.
  • "Constantly. Constantly. All the time." (11:58)

The Internal Contradictions of Progressive Movements

• Identity Politics Power Games: The podcast details how identity politics are weaponized for competition, with white guilt-rich donors (especially inherited wealth) driving much of the progressive movement’s financing—often with little real-world impact on their own lives.
  • "People most invested in these reforms are least affected by the policies they, like, are spending billions of dollars to enact." (38:09)
• Experiences of Cancel Culture and DEI: Barker recounts being accused of "white woman" disrespect in work conflicts and the Kafkaesque nature of DEI trainings.
  • "I wasn't afraid anymore at that point. I was like, fuck these people. They're fucking crazy. Like, this isn't about politics anymore. This is just about weaponizing your identity to undercut competition." (34:49)
• Therapy & Fear of Ruin: Barker describes anxiety and OCD stemming from a hostile work environment, including the ever-present fear of being accidentally caught saying the wrong thing and publicly destroyed.
  • "I felt like I couldn't speak sometimes on calls or even give my opinions on things unless they directly related to, like, my skin color." (26:50)

Political Strategy: Fundraising, Archetypes, and Operative Life

• Fundraising Techniques: Reveals the psychology of donor relations and the archetypes of political candidates and operatives.
• The Lure and Pitfalls of Power: Politics as an addictive "bubble"—being near power is intoxicating, which explains why some become career “lifers.” (75:06 – 76:26)

Key Political Shifts & Critiques

• The Party’s Leftward Lurch: A detailed post-mortem on how the Democratic Party, under pressure from progressives and identity-based activists, hollowed out its economic populism.
  • "Both wings captured each other's worst impulses. AOC became a loyal lapdog for the establishment, while the establishment embraced the most divisive aspects of progressive rhetoric. This merger came at the expense of the populist vision expressed in Bernie’s 2016 campaign." (44:10)
• Bernie Sanders and Candidate Evolutions: The transformation of Sanders from a blunt, economic-focused outsider to one captured by identity politics (45:11–46:53).
• Republican Prospects: Barker expresses a soft spot for JD Vance as a post-Trump, Midwestern populist, while the hosts remain skeptical of his authenticity. Discussion of "America First" as the necessary North Star for any post-Trump GOP (51:07).
• Politics as Surrogate Purpose: The show closes with reflections on how, in the absence of family or rooted commitments, people pour messianic fervor into political activism—sometimes to the detriment of their own wellbeing and social fabric.
  • "Politics gives people, like, moral authority that they can hang on to. In lieu of, like, real moral obligations to people in their lives, you know?" (96:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Weaponized Identity:
  • “I'm not going to admit my privilege. Like, even if you make me take one. The moment they ask me to, I will pretend like my Internet went out. Like, I will turn off the computer. Like it's not happening, so don't even try.” — Evan Barker (35:21)
• On Obama & Health Care as Motivation:
  • “This is very earnest. Like, I just really wanted health insurance and neither of my parents got to go to college... My dad actually didn't graduate high school because he hit his vice principal in the face.” — Evan Barker (05:23)
• On Democratic Party's Internal Contradictions:
  • “I started to feel like I was living a double life. Honestly, I mean, I didn't even tell my husband how I was feeling. I would just listen to you guys.” — Evan Barker (23:01)
• On Populism Across Parties:
  • “If it wasn't going to be Bernie, it was going to be Trump, you know. But I don't know if he really could have overcome. I think Trump was inevitable.” — Evan Barker (48:30)
• On Progressive Donors:
  • “Not a lot of business people... but women that have inherited their wealth from either family or, like, getting divorced... And they're usually white. And so they feel bad about it because they're really rich. So they have white guilt.” — Evan Barker (39:01)
• On the Experience of Politics:
  • “It's like when you're inside of [the bubble], when you're with that person... it's like a drug. It's a. The best drug you could ever take. And that's how you become a lifer.” — Evan Barker (76:26)
• On Marriage as Escape Hatch:
  • “I think marriage kind of saved me. Thank God. It was, like, really stabilizing for me. It was the most stabilizing force in my life has been my marriage and my family, with my husband.” — Evan Barker (91:54)
• On The State of Work & AI:
  • “Work has lost so much of its inherent dignity because people aren’t, like, carpenters and homemakers anymore, and they’re, like, working, like, shitty email jobs, like, compiling spreadsheets...” — Host (79:23)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:39: Introduction of Evan Barker and her new book
• 02:05: Evan’s upbringing and motivation for entering politics
• 07:28: Early jobs, college, grave economic precarity, and political ascent
• 13:45: Barker’s fundraising "feminine wiles" and political efficacy
• 16:16: Disillusionment with Democratic establishment & performative activism
• 24:19: DEI/cancel culture stories—Rittenhouse and being disciplined for tone
• 34:33: The moment Barker "snapped" and rejected DEI shaming
• 38:09: The white guilt-rich donor class driving progressive politics
• 44:10–45:11: On the party's self-defeating culture war turn
• 51:07: America First as GOP North Star; J.D. Vance & realignment
• 62:32: Discussion of AIPAC, APAC neutralization strategy
• 75:06: Insider archetypes—political lifers and "the bubble"
• 91:54: How marriage/family offered escape from toxic political culture
• 96:28: The emotional void activism fills for many childless/unmarried people

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Other Memorable Segments

• Populism as Both Appeal and Poison: Multiple moments where Barker and hosts muse on how economic populism was sacrificed for empty cultural signaling (44:10, 70:20).
• Hollywood and Democrats: Entertaining exchanges about why celebs are universally Democratic unless their careers are over (85:01).
• Therapeutic Power of Red Scare: Barker credits the podcast for helping her survive the worst moments of her career in left politics (98:01).

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Final Thoughts

Nothing Left is both a personal confession and a ruthless exposé of the Democratic Party’s evolution—one that dissects its cultural contradictions with candor and wit. This episode is essential for anyone wanting insight into why so many insiders, especially from working-class backgrounds, are so bitterly disillusioned with mainstream progressive politics.

Barker’s story resonates for its honesty (“I now understand, like, you put into words all of the things I felt” (43:06)), her sharp assessment of how power and money flow through the party, and her unapologetic embrace of the "America first" populist current as the only way forward for either party.

Buy "Nothing Left" if you want more.

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For Further Exploration

• Buy Evan Barker’s book: Nothing Left: Confessions of a Democratic Operative
• Follow Anna (@annakhachiyan) and Dasha (@nobody_stop_me) on Twitter
• Patreon link for Red Scare: https://www.patreon.com/RedScare

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This summary covers the episode’s essential content and soul. For a deeper immersion in the tone—the blend of bleak honesty, comedy, and cultural commentary—listen to the episode in full.

Transcript

[Host 1]

Foreign.

[Evan Barker]

Do you guys ever add sound effects to the show or is it just.

[Host 2]

No, sometimes we play a clip of something on Dasha's phone.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I hold the phone up to the mic up my phone. We're back.

[Host 2]

We're back.

[Host 1]

We have a very special guest today. The author of Nothing Left, Confessions of a Democratic Operative, Evan Barker. Welcome to Redskin.

[Evan Barker]

Evan, thank you for saying Democratic and not Democrat.

[Host 1]

Well, that's what it says on the.

[Evan Barker]

I know, but all week I've been going on shows and they're like, confessions of a Democrat operative.

[Host 1]

Well, you were a Democrat operative.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, but I think it's like a partisan thing where people say Democrat.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Instead of Democratic and Democratic. It's like a Rush Limbaugh ism or something.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[Host 1]

Congratulations to have you.

[Host 2]

Whirlwind media tour.

[Evan Barker]

I know. Last stop.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

In New York, so thank you.

[Host 1]

Congrats on the book.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, I know. I can't believe I wrote a book.

[Host 2]

That's crazy. Yeah. And it's number two in political books. Right on number one. It was number two last time I checked. So now it's number one. Congratulations. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

They're saying there's a chance we could make the list.

[Host 1]

The bestseller list.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

It seems. It seems like a good candidate for it.

[Evan Barker]

Crazy.

[Host 1]

So what. And why, why, why, why did you write a book?

[Evan Barker]

So should I just tell you my story?

[Host 1]

Tell us.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, yeah, I know you read it, but.

[Host 2]

Yes, we did our research.

[Evan Barker]

Yes, you did. Yeah. So I. I grew up in the middle of the country and was born into a family that was like, mostly Democrats. And the first book I ever learned to read was my president, Bill Clinton, when I was five.

[Host 1]

Wow.

[Evan Barker]

You know, it's cute. And I just worked for the Democratic Party because I was born into a Democratic unit union family. And I was also born with a rare lung disease. It's more like a cilia disease. But that's kind of too complicated sometimes to explain to people.

[Host 2]

Huh. I think I get it. You get it?

[Host 1]

Yeah, it's.

[Evan Barker]

But it's. It's like where the cilia don't move. Yeah. So they're immodal throughout your body. So it affects like your sinuses, fertility, like, lungs, everything. So when I was a kid, it was really hard for me to get

[Host 1]

health insurance sometimes because of the pre existing condition.

[Evan Barker]

Right. Even as a child, because sometimes my parents are broke. And it kind of had like a messy upbringing. Yes. Like, you know, my mom was married. She's Never gonna listen.

[Host 2]

Was she married six times?

[Evan Barker]

She was married six times.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Host 2]

I was wondering because in the book you're like, she sold all six of her wedding rings to like, put me through college and. Or pay for my insurance. I don't remember which one it was. But I was like, wait a second. Maybe she had like a really generous husband.

[Evan Barker]

She was. My mom was like, addicted to love.

[Host 1]

That's.

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host 1]

Real.

[Evan Barker]

She was hot too.

[Host 2]

Who. I mean, who isn't?

[Evan Barker]

She was beautiful. She was like. I think I describe her in the book as like a bombshell.

[Host 2]

Bombshell. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Sydney Sweeney. Yeah, she was, you know. You guys ever seen the movie Mermaids with Cher? Yeah, that was kind of like my childhood.

[Host 1]

Wow.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And so you were very bullish on Obama.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Cuz he was like, I'm going to give you health care.

[Host 2]

Yeah, but I guess. Well, my question is in terms of like, your upbringing and your like, values, being a Democrat was sort of in your blood because everybody in your family was nearly.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, everybody. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Yeah. So did you feel like a sense of like, personal, like, drive or motivation to work in politics?

[Evan Barker]

Honestly, like, if I'm being totally honest, it was like I found the Obama campaign when I was a senior in high school. I don't know how old you guys are, but we're probably.

[Host 1]

I think we're the same. Ish age. I'm 35.

[Host 2]

40. So yeah.

[Host 1]

Wait, when's your, when's your birthday?

[Evan Barker]

October 27th.

[Host 1]

You're a Libra.

[Evan Barker]

Scorpio.

[Host 1]

Scorpio. Cool.

[Host 2]

Scorpio rising. Oh, wait, what do I have a lot of Scorpio?

[Host 1]

I'm a Pisces.

[Evan Barker]

You're a Pisces.

[Host 1]

And I don't, I don't remember. I don't think I could vote.

[Evan Barker]

Okay.

[Host 1]

Were you born in 90?

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, but I turned 18 like a week before the election. Yeah.

[Host 2]

So that was like an episode in your book where finally cast my vote for Obama.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. So, yeah. So I, Yeah, I felt like this. It was in my blood. Actually. The original title of the book was going to be Born Blue. Because I was like, born blue. Literally. Yeah. Because I was sick when I was a kid and then, and then, and then, and then born into a, you know, a blue collar Democratic family. And so that was part of it. And then I just like, this is very earnest. Like I just really wanted health insurance and neither of my parents got to go to college. My dad actually didn't graduate high school because he hit his vice principal in the face.

[Host 1]

Yeah, both your dad and your grandfather had kind of a checkered.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Past the. Yeah, a little bit. But do you.

[Host 2]

Do you relate to Roseanne? There's a discourse on Twitter now about growing up working class. And a lot of people who grew up that way were like, yes, this is, like, so relatable. And then a lot of other people like, well, I was blue collar, but this is like an ugly and unflattering depiction.

[Evan Barker]

I think it's like, yeah, there's parts of it that are accurate, you know, but, yeah, she. So I wanted to go to college, so I just wanted health insurance.

[Host 1]

And then what did you study?

[Evan Barker]

English.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Evan Barker]

Like, nothing that could really help me get a job or anything. And so. But I did really good with the Obama campaign. Like, Michelle Obama even mentioned me in a speech at some point.

[Host 1]

So you had a real. Just aptitude.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, I was really good at political communicating.

[Host 1]

Yeah, you were like a incredible fundraiser.

[Evan Barker]

Well, later. Later. But, yeah. And so then when I got out of college, so I was working all the way through college, waitressing. I worked all these crazy jobs. I worked at, like, Hilton Garden and as a breakfast server in San Diego. When I left the Midwest, I worked as a toilet maid.

[Host 2]

Wow.

[Host 1]

That's a special kind of maid.

[Host 2]

I thought they only had that in, like, Latin America.

[Evan Barker]

No, it was like, I got hired at this cleaning company, and I was the new girl, and so all of the other maids just made me the toilet maid. Like, as, like, the new girl chasing toilets. Yeah. So those jobs sucked.

[Host 2]

And.

[Evan Barker]

And so after college, took me a while to finish. Donald Trump got elected in 2016.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Evan Barker]

And I was like, oh, my God, I have to stop working at hotels and in restaurants, and I need to go back to. To politics. And so I ended up leaving San Diego and kind of, like, moving to New York fast and furiously. I was. I broke up with someone, too, at that time, but I don't really talk about it.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I was. It was pretty remarkable how in your book, the personal stuff, really, you don't get into that.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I mean, it's nice. It's refreshing. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Is it? Yeah.

[Host 1]

Yeah, definitely.

[Evan Barker]

Do you think some people kind of, like, moan on and on about.

[Host 2]

Well, I mean, well, women. Women love to write about their. Like, their trauma. Trauma and romances and stuff. And I guess you have to bring up your family background and your lung disorder because it clarifies story, right? Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

So in the Obama era, things were good.

[Evan Barker]

I mean. Yeah, I think so. I. You had the health care. It was just sort of status quo at that Time. Right. I mean, I had the health care. I was not really activated by the Wall street movement.

[Host 1]

You didn't Occupy?

[Evan Barker]

I did. I was too busy working and, like, trying to finish and not get sick and fighting with my boyfriends and stuff like that.

[Host 1]

And so you didn't want to live in the autonomous zone.

[Host 2]

Were you in New York at that point?

[Evan Barker]

No, but it was kind of.

[Host 1]

It was all over. I occupied Oakland. But you were like a Bernie Crat initially, later, no.

[Evan Barker]

So I was. I was Obama. And then after college, I moved out here. Friends of friends met these people that lived in Bushwick. Yeah.

[Host 1]

Likely place for them.

[Evan Barker]

Oh, my God. I was like, on another planet. You guys coming from, like, the Midwest. In San Diego, it was. It was so scary.

[Host 1]

We don't. We're not allowed to go there.

[Host 2]

I haven't been back in, like, half a decade, more. I refuse to set foot in Bushwick.

[Evan Barker]

So.

[Host 1]

So I would.

[Evan Barker]

I would go there and I. Like, my roommates, they were. They were like. I think they were like trust fund kids because they didn't really have jobs. Like, one of them was. She was in, like, a David lynch cover band. Like, it was like a Twin Peaks.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Evan Barker]

Cover band. That's all she did. And she was an actress, and the other guy was like a drummer. And he would always be having band practice every night. And, like, my room did not have a window or it had a window, like a big hole in the wall. So I could never, like, block the noise. And they would show like, Twin Peaks once a week. And I was just. I didn't even know what Twin Peaks was. Yeah, this was like, in 2017. And I would just, like, hang out there and blare like Randy Travis music.

[Host 1]

Did you like Twin Peaks? Because it's kind of a Midwest day.

[Evan Barker]

Well, is it all right?

[Host 1]

No, I guess it's the Pacific Northwest. But David lynch is very Midwestern.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

In his temperament.

[Evan Barker]

My husband showed it to me later and then I was like, okay. Yeah, it's good. But it was just really. It was a weird living there. Was really strange and.

[Host 1]

Well, that's a big motif recurring in your book is like, being in these progressive circles and finding yourself to be sort of the least privileged of the people in your milieu.

[Evan Barker]

Right.

[Host 2]

Yes. And them expecting you to check your privilege for being white and being like. Wait, what? Wait.

[Evan Barker]

Constantly. Constantly. All the time. And. Yeah. So then I ended up working for this woman named Karen in New Jersey.

[Host 1]

Is that her real name?

[Evan Barker]

No.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Evan Barker]

She's the one person whose name I

[Host 1]

changed and you had to.

[Evan Barker]

I had to. For legal reasons.

[Host 1]

Understood.

[Evan Barker]

But yeah. And her husband was, like. He was a part of the financial crisis 2008, and that was a really wacky experience. Going over to their mansion in New Jersey, and he would be, like, dressed up as a magician with a top hat, And she was, like, wearing her pussy. Hat. Hat. And her daughter was, like, blogging, like, trying to get young women to blog about social justice issues. And I was just. This was in New York or New Jersey.

[Host 1]

New Jersey.

[Host 2]

But at this point in, like, I guess, 2016, 2017, when, like, Bernie's already.

[Evan Barker]

I was.

[Host 2]

In ways.

[Host 1]

You are walking with Hill, how much

[Host 2]

of a political consciousness you have.

[Evan Barker]

I mean, I just followed the party line at that point. Yeah, I was just kind of like, you know, Obama gave me health care. Yeah. I like Democrats.

[Host 2]

You know, like a centrist.

[Evan Barker]

I was the centrist. Yeah.

[Host 1]

And I was.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, I liked Hillary, like, before Obama. I wanted Hillary to win. Like, I was really late to the Bernie train, actually. I kind of missed it. I don't know why or how, but.

[Host 2]

But essentially you had, like, I guess, political acumen or political talent, but no political awareness yet, just on the strength of your, like, personal story, personality and, like, whatever talents.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I had no idea how to do fundraising. I just kind of, like, got offered the job through somebody that I knew on the Clinton campaign when I briefly worked for her during her primary. And he thought I would do good at it, and I did. Really good at it.

[Host 1]

What do you think it is about you that made you so competent?

[Evan Barker]

I think it's a couple of things. I think it's because I really enjoyed taking the money of really rich people.

[Host 1]

You say this in your vibe.

[Evan Barker]

I, like, I got a thrill. I really. I was like. I don't know, like, an adrenaline rush to be like, yeah, give me your money. And then it was also, I think, because a lot of the people that I would work with, they kind of had more of a WASPy attitude about money. So they were kind of like. They felt. They found it to be impolite to maybe talk about or to be aggressive.

[Host 2]

And you could be direct.

[Evan Barker]

And I was very direct. I would look at them and I'd be, like, scrappy.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I know you have it now. I'll be. I'll be honest. When I was reading the book and you were talking about how good you were at fundraising, like, I. Generally, when people make claims about themselves. Yeah, we'll see. But I totally believe it now.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, yeah. Did you believe it more towards the end of the book or at some

[Host 2]

point you started naming, like, facts and figures, so, you know, you can't argue with that.

[Evan Barker]

But yeah, because I. I think that there's this misconception about fundraising, political fundraising, especially where people think if you're a fundraiser, it must mean you're just raising from tons of people, you know, or something. Personally.

[Host 1]

Yeah, but you're just cold calling.

[Evan Barker]

Cold calling, like the co founder of Facebook and like the sorrow says, and just, you know.

[Host 2]

Well, I like the two anecdotes that you gave. The one about Tom Girardi, Erica Jane's husband from Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, who's, like, now in jail for defrauding the victims of, like, plane crashes that he was representing in class action suits. Is that correct?

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And you, like, kind of ran up on him on a street corner and he was like, oh, attractive young woman. Like, yeah. And then the other one, like, the pro tip that you gave that, like, stood out to me was like, calling lower rung associates at law firms and pretending, like, asking for so smart. The head honcho and them putting you through without going to the secretary. They wanted to make a good impression. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Because I was. I was working at that point in time. I was helping progressives. We kind of skipped. But I got disillusioned by the establishment too, because I felt like they were just anti Trump. Like, they didn't. And they just talked about abortion, and I never really cared about that issue that much.

[Host 2]

The Democrats.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, the Democrats. Abortion was never an animating issue for me.

[Host 1]

Resistance was very, like, hat abortion center.

[Evan Barker]

I didn't care about it. Like, I was like, you know, and

[Host 1]

they had nothing really to, like, offer.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. And now that I'm a mother, I'm like, even more pro life, actually.

[Host 1]

Of course.

[Evan Barker]

But Right. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Kind of. What happens? Hate to say it, but it's true. Yeah. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

But so, yeah, I got disillusioned. I end up working for Bernie and then not. Sorry. It ended up working for Bernie. I ended up working in the. Bernie.

[Host 1]

The Justice Democrats.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And then the left rising.

[Evan Barker]

And then the left. Right.

[Host 1]

And then I wrote.

[Host 2]

I'm like.

[Host 1]

I was like, okay. Then it was the left rising. And then through that, you did something called the movement school, and you were teaching.

[Host 2]

It was kind of hard to keep track of all the acronyms like the DCC and the jccc.

[Evan Barker]

No, but so back to being scrappy. So because I was working with progressives, I had to, like, be scrappy, and I had to come up with Sort of unique ideas to get to basically trick donors into giving to us because they didn't want, like, the progressives didn't have their own donors at that point. It was like we had to trick the Tom Girardi of the world and to giving to our, like, Bernie crack candidates. Does that make sense? And I. Another way that I was probably a little different than other fundraisers is that I wasn't afraid to use my feminine wiles.

[Host 2]

Yes. That comes across. Yeah.

[Host 1]

And that'll get you far.

[Evan Barker]

It gets you so far.

[Host 1]

And because it's. Because you can use it both, like, aggressively, and then also you can, like, do, like, a ditzy.

[Evan Barker]

That's what I did.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Like, when I found Gerardi at that trial event, I was like, I went up to these random. These random guys, these trial attorneys, and they were standing there, and I put lipstick on, and I unbuttoned the top part of my blouse, and I was like, hi, I'm so sorry. I just started a new job, and I up. I forgot to register us.

[Host 1]

Oh, yeah. And that's when everyone just showed you.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. I was like, can you please give me the schedul? My boss is about to get here, like.

[Host 1]

And they're like, please, whatever you need.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. And they just gave me everything, which then eventually led me to finding Mr. Girardi on the street.

[Host 2]

Well, a question I had was, like, for a political tell all, this book is shockingly low on, like, salacious sexual scandals. I don't know if you're at Liberty says, but did. Did you ever, like, sleep. Sleep with any.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Like, politicians. Yeah.

[Host 2]

And stuff.

[Evan Barker]

I slept with a campaign manager.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Evan Barker]

That ended up becoming the head of a really important state party.

[Host 2]

I was wondering about that.

[Evan Barker]

He was my boss. Yeah, I.

[Host 2]

That happens. I mean, like, the Eric Swalwell stuff.

[Evan Barker]

Yes. Oh, my God. Eric. Free Eric. Free him. Like, I. I don't. Okay. I didn't get into a lot of this in the book. I. Some of it. Some of it I cut. I might do some, like, op EDS and follow ups, but I saw, like, pretty heinous stuff behind the scenes from women and progressive politics that has made me completely automatically question whenever there's, like, a politically opportune sex scandal. I don't just initially take it at face value. And so when I saw the Eric Swalwell thing, like, I actually defended him online and got. And got a lot of hate for that, but that's okay.

[Host 1]

But don't you think that's changing gradually? No, I guess that's still no, no, no, no.

[Evan Barker]

You guys, we're in the middle of another. Me, too. No, we are.

[Host 1]

No.

[Evan Barker]

So do you guys follow Michael Tracy?

[Host 2]

Of course.

[Host 1]

Of course.

[Host 2]

Friend and guest.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. I just got on a group chat.

[Host 1]

The only journalist I trust.

[Evan Barker]

You don't trust Glenn Greenwell?

[Host 1]

No, no, I just.

[Host 2]

Glenn.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Yeah. But no. So, like, there's this whole rise right now in the. In the Democratic Party. There's this woman named Cheyenne Hunt. Who is she. She basically took down Swal, and then she also took down Grant Platner.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Evan Barker]

And she started a group called Reckoning Action. So, like, their whole thing is fighting sex abusers and misogynist and politics. And so she's just.

[Host 1]

But what's the end goal? Because at a certain point when you. You're like. You get into, like, how almost every political organization is already, like, fronted by women.

[Evan Barker]

Right.

[Host 1]

They are so, like, what power do they even. What's left for them to usurp?

[Evan Barker]

I mean, I think they just want men to stop voting for them.

[Host 2]

I mean, maybe they want to banish men from public life. I don't know. But I think you're right that, like, me too, is here to stay. But it's really sad because at least when the. The original, like, movement or campaign was happening, there were some people who were true believers, and they. They really did think that they were fighting for sexual justice for women. But I feel like nobody actually buys that now. And everybody knows it's like the Emperor's New Clothes. Everybody knows it's, like, shameless and opportunistic, but they do it anyway. That's how you get people to like.

[Host 1]

Well, you mentioned in your book with the Trump victory.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Being haunted by the. Grab them by the comments.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Well, yeah. So when it. When I first. Back in 2016, you know, I was still dumb, of course, and, yeah, I didn't like it.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Now I think it's like, well, yeah.

[Host 1]

Eugene Carroll.

[Evan Barker]

Now I'm just like. Yeah. He's saying that celebrities get.

[Host 1]

You're a star. They let you do it.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. If you're a celebrity, you get lots of girls.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

That's what he said.

[Host 2]

And it wasn't even at the time, like, I remember thinking, like, this isn't even mean or controversial. And it was like an old clip, obviously. But I guess because you seem like such a, like, savvy and on the person, like, in your private moments, like, working for Democrats and then progressives, when you were faced with, like, you know, as you point out, like, the. The gender stuff, the Sex stuff. Like, the soft on crime stuff, immigration stuff. Did you have, like, private moments of reckoning with yourself where you were like, wait a second. This doesn't add up.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. All the time. I started to feel like I was living a double life.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Honestly, I mean, I didn't even tell my husband how I was feeling.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

I would just listen to you guys.

[Host 2]

Oh, thank you.

[Evan Barker]

I'm serious. Like, I was like. It was weird in. In 20. I think it was around 20.

[Host 1]

20.

[Evan Barker]

2021. My friend Jess. Shout out to Jess.

[Host 1]

Shout out Jess.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. She was like, evan, you need to listen to this podcast. They have. They have voices like you.

[Host 2]

Wait, which one? Which one? Did she say you sound.

[Host 1]

We have this.

[Host 2]

Yeah, we have, like, kind of.

[Evan Barker]

We put both of you.

[Host 2]

People think we have, like.

[Evan Barker]

But she. Yeah, some people.

[Host 2]

I can see that more. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Dasha. Yeah. And I was like, okay. You know, and so she. She sent it to me, and I think it was around the written house verdict when I started listening because I got fired from a client.

[Host 1]

Oh, yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Because I, like, she didn't fire the fundraising firm. She just inspired me and my team because on the day of the Kyle Rittenhouse product, which I, like, honestly wasn't even paying attention to you guys, you were busy. And I had, like, eight clients. And I just sent her an email because she didn't want to call a list of things.

[Host 1]

Was this the Nabila.

[Host 2]

No, that's going on Jasmine Crockett.

[Evan Barker]

No, no, no. Keena Collins. Okay. She just lost again. So. But, you know, she. I just sent her this email, like, hey, you need to call this list of donors. I know you don't want to, but we need to do it again because we need you to raise money. And I got. Oh, my God. Everyone was like, what are you doing? Why are you telling her this, that she's wrong? Do you know what today is?

[Host 2]

Because you were, like, talking down, even kill a black person. I know.

[Evan Barker]

That's.

[Host 2]

Well, remember when the. The story first dropped? It was crazy because everybody was alleging on Twitter. I remember this vividly that he had mowed down some black people. And I was like, what? No, that's not true.

[Host 1]

Like, the truth just didn't matter at all.

[Evan Barker]

It was three white people.

[Host 2]

And even. Even after the facts became known, people were still calling it, like, white supremacist violence. And I was like, but, oh, how? Like, that kind of stuff really, like, started to drive you nuts. So you were basically, like, taken down a peg for talking back to a strong black woman.

[Evan Barker]

Just, like, telling her to do her job. That's it. And doing my job, and it's, like this big thing. And so that night, I was, like, spinning out, you know, at that time, like, even though I was having these internal misgivings, it was, like, still, I was, like, really afraid. I took this out of the book, actually, because I wasn't sure if it would come out the right way. But I started going to a therapist around this time because I was struggling. I kind of have ocd, and I was struggling. Not, like the outer ocd, but the ruminating, intrusive thought. Intrusive thoughts. Not so much anymore.

[Host 2]

Scorpio problems. Wait, you're a Scorpio rising? But like I mentioned, I have, like, randomly, like, a lot of Scorpio placements.

[Evan Barker]

Right.

[Host 2]

Like, seething about things.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. And so I just. I started, like, just spitting out and wanting to talk to my therapist about it. And so she would walk me through these scripts on my phone. Like, we would do scripts where I'd have to, like, walk through it. What would happen. I might have one of them. But I just. I couldn't. I felt like I couldn't speak sometimes on calls or even give my opinions on things unless they directly related to, like, my skin color.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

And it was. It was really, really hard.

[Host 1]

Well, you described being, like, on a call where you weren't even. You were, like, taking notes, and someone made a remark that was like, when. When we're in a safe space, we'll. We'll talk privately. And this, like, white. White girls, not here. Black space.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, but I just. I, like, remember I had this fear that I would be in a zoom call talking to minorities or even other white people. And I would say I was saying the N word.

[Host 2]

That's something you'd crash out.

[Evan Barker]

Like, Tourette's would take over me that. You know, that I would. That I would say something that could be. I mean, just even correcting a black woman on the day of the Rittenhouse Verge got me fired. And so, yeah, I started walking through the script with my. And I was like. I would say, like, I say something wrong, and then. And then the video gets posted online, and then it gets played on cnn. And then my boyfriend leaves me, and then I end up alone, and I'm under a bridge, and we would just, like, kind of walk through it. And I would be doing this every week at this time. And also listening to you guys in secret, like, not even telling my husband. And also listening to Tucker Carlson.

[Host 2]

I. Yeah, I remember encountering that part in the book.

[Host 1]

Yeah, well, that was nodding like the heyday of kind of like peak Karen punishment. Like every day there was a video of some like woman like cowering and screaming and losing her mind and someone like filming her being like. What did you say? Women like, absolutely melt down for being like Karen.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

I was just like. I think the worst places to be during that time were probably in academia and Hollywood politics and progressive politics, especially, because the types of people that are drawn to progressive politics are like extremely like. It's like the 0.1% of the wokest

[Host 2]

types of people, like malignant narcissists.

[Evan Barker]

Malignant ethno narcissist is the best way to describe it. And it was just. It was really hard. And they. They all, like so many of them. Especially when I. I was. Worked for this guy named Shawn King who's actually white.

[Host 2]

Right. Do you know.

[Evan Barker]

So I was.

[Host 2]

Do you have a.

[Evan Barker]

I would ask this question and they would be like, we don't think so. Huh? Well, we don't think he's black, but we're. You know. You're not allowed to ask.

[Host 2]

Right? Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Like, if I asked anyone that question or asked him or something.

[Host 2]

Huh.

[Evan Barker]

I would be like, well, you would be fine. I wouldn't have written the book because I would have been fired before I made it that far.

[Host 2]

But.

[Host 1]

And that was post blm.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Well, I was working. It was weird. The summer that everything caught fire, I was handed a criminal justice reform pack as my client, which was Shaun King's group. And so while everybody was in the streets burning buildings, I was working with like Larry Krasner and with the people that got Chesa Boudin elected and. Sorry, what. What.

[Host 1]

What are you saying?

[Evan Barker]

I always feel like when I tell people this that I need to apologize for it.

[Host 1]

I don't even know who that is.

[Evan Barker]

You're like, let's talk about Tom Girardi. But yeah, no, he. So they're like these really progressive DAs that don't believe in police.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And don't believe Soros das.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, there's. I was working with Soros das.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Right at the time.

[Host 2]

They've unleashed a lot of carnage and destruction on the American people.

[Evan Barker]

That's why I'm a politician.

[Host 2]

Yeah. That's why she feels guilty for.

[Host 1]

But that's. You mentioned you. That was like one of the big 180s that you really did was on criminal justice reform.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Because you're in. Well, you're in those. Those spaces and you're listening to the candidates all day. And they are just like telling the donors over and over again how the police are racist and how, you know, we live in a, you know, criminal justice system of white supremacy and that we need to help black people. And I had just seen this video of Floyd getting killed, and I felt really bad about it. You know, I hated it.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

And so I just kind of like got sucked in and thought that I was doing the right thing. Until one day when I read online about how Shaun King, his wife. What? Or he was asking his followers to give her money on cash app. And then it was revealed that the same day he was begging for money on cash app, she was closing on a million dollar home.

[Host 2]

Right. It was like a six million dollar home. Right. Something crazy that was.

[Evan Barker]

I think that was the Patrice Kohlers. Yeah, but they were all buying homes.

[Host 2]

But, yeah, they were all like, scamming left and right to like, pad their real estate portfolios, which, by the way, you can't blame them. Like, I would.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I don't know if I would do the same, but, like, given their, like, position, their situation, like, they had a

[Host 1]

more opportunity to launder some money.

[Evan Barker]

I mean. Yeah.

[Host 1]

Blm.

[Host 2]

Yep. How were you? Were you laundering money? Were you, like, sipping the race Kool Aid? Like, it's one thing to be like, yeah, okay, like, all people deserve the same opportunities.

[Evan Barker]

I mean, I felt like I had

[Host 2]

to not be judged on the color of their skin. But, like, there was a point in the book where you talk about, like, how, like, yeah, we should be electing more, like, black female politicians and lawmakers.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Did you, like, genuinely.

[Evan Barker]

I did.

[Host 2]

Like, yeah.

[Evan Barker]

I really did. Yeah. I think I, you know, you meant well. You're in. I met. Well. And I was like, yeah, of course I think this is the right thing to do. But then, I mean, at some point, it's just like, you know, through the Nebula situation and the Keena situation and then Jasmine and just, you know, the constant. And then all the stuff from the donors, you guys, the donors were probably the worst, to be honest.

[Host 1]

Can I.

[Evan Barker]

Because it was a lot of, like, rich white women. Yeah.

[Host 1]

So Nabila Islam Parks, you say you never had a single private one on one phone conversation. You exchanged text messages. And then she sends your boss this email. This is not the first time an entitled white woman has spoken to me disrespectfully, and I suppose it will not be the last. I am not the only person of color she has spoken disrespectfully to on this Team Evan's problematic mannerisms have been noticed by multiple people and not just me. And then you asked her if she wanted to talk to you about. About it, and she did not respond and then sent a follow up email to your boss that said it's a common tactic by white women to deflect and play victim, especially when it comes to working with women of color. The email she sent me completely erases any accountability she has in the matter. And instead she frames it as if I'm being mean to her. Can you not see how insane that is? Like, I'm some angry brown woman and she has done nothing wrong. But of course you don't see that. I highly suggest that both of you take diversity, equity and inclusion. And that's when, yeah, you kind of snap.

[Evan Barker]

I snapped.

[Host 2]

That was the moment, like the pivotal moment.

[Evan Barker]

That was the pregnant. I was like, pregnant, like one day pregnant.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

And yeah, I like, DEI training was

[Host 1]

the straw that broke.

[Evan Barker]

Well, I didn't do it.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

And you know what? I told my boss? I was like, I'll never admit my privilege out loud. Like, I was very, like, obstinate about it. I did not. I wasn't, I wasn't afraid anymore at that point. I was like, fuck these people. They're fucking crazy. Like, this isn't about politics anymore. This is just about weaponizing your identity to undercut competition.

[Host 2]

Like, that's like sick power games and like, you should never admit anything you don't believe because then they can sense your weakness and they'll like, kill you with hammers.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Yeah. And so I was like, I'm not going to admit my privilege. Like, even if you make me take one. I, you know, the moment they ask me to, I will pretend like my Internet went out. Like, I will turn off the computer. Like it's not happening, so don't even try.

[Host 2]

I'm curious, like, what her definition of accountability is, because it sounds like you were taking accountability by reaching out to her directly, which is like being an adult, vulnerable and embarrassing to talk to somebody one on one. Right?

[Host 1]

I guess.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Anyway, well, I wanted to ask you, like, speaking of rich white women about, I guess the. These two women that you mention, Leah Hendrix Hunt and Chloe Cockburn.

[Host 1]

Oh, yeah. I want the Chloe Cockburn tea.

[Host 2]

And you mentioned that everyone thinks it's like Soros funding all of the race war and soft on crime das, but actually it's really people like them behind progressive ideology.

[Host 1]

It is. And Hendrix Hunt's like an oil billionaire.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Her grandfather was like an oil Baron, who was like, really racist actually, like, legitimately, he. But she. I think he, like, put out. I might be not remembering this right, but I think he likes campaign to send, like, people back to. To Africa. Like, that was like something that he promoted. Yeah. You know, and so I think she felt a lot of guilt being his granddaughter and knowing that her money, you know, she was. She actually helped, I think, fund the Occupy Wall street movement too.

[Host 1]

I see.

[Evan Barker]

So she was.

[Host 2]

She was. She thought she was, like, righting wrongs.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Of her ancestor, the white guilt.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Well, it's funny because, like, I. I don't know if you remember in the 90s, you're probably like a little bit too young for this, but, like, that was like a semi popular thing movement among, like black people, like the 5 percenters, where they were like, we're going back to Africa. So it's funny. It's like, ironic that, like, they came to the same conclusion like that the really reason.

[Evan Barker]

Oil baron guided.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

No, but like, Leah. I mean, she wasn't like. Leah wasn't. She wasn't like all bad or anything, but she. Yeah, I just. I think she, like, kind of did a lot of irresponsible things, I guess.

[Host 1]

Well, as you say, it's like the people most invested in these reforms are least affected by the policies they, like, are spending billions of dollars to enact. Like, don't actually impact their lives in any way.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Yeah. And she's. I mean, it was interesting because, like, she was a donor. Right. But she was also kind of like an operative, too, which made her extra powerful. Well, she ran an organization called Way to Win. Okay. Which is basically behind all of the squad candidates. Like, they fund. They give Justice Democrats a ton of money. They probably helped Mom Dani. Like, they help, like, they have these, like, conferences. It's mostly women donors, a lot of women who. It's. It's interesting. It's like, not a lot of business people that makes sense, like people that created businesses, but women that have inherited their wealth from either family or, like, getting divorced.

[Host 2]

Makes sense.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Many such cases.

[Evan Barker]

And so they just, like, have nothing to do with their time. And so they're like. And they're usually white. And so they feel bad about it because they're really rich. So they. They have white guilt. Whereas, like, my family doesn't have any white guilt. No, like, at all. They're like, what are you talking about?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And when did your family make the switch to Trump? In pre2016.

[Evan Barker]

It's been slow since, like, some of them started voting for him in 2016. Like this uncle Billy Jay, shout out Billy J. He's amazing. He has 80 gun.

[Host 1]

You mention him?

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Do I? Okay, well, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Host 1]

It's the one where you ask, like, do you think the Democrats look down?

[Host 2]

Right.

[Host 1]

I don't think they look good.

[Evan Barker]

They don't. But, yeah, he has 80 guns. He's like a vet. Worked as a bricklayer. He. He's so amazing. Like, when I talked to him, I was like, did you like being a bricklayer? Like, you know, and he's like, yeah, the harder the better. Like, he likes hard work, you know?

[Host 1]

Jesus was a bricklayer.

[Evan Barker]

Was he? I thought he was a carpenter.

[Host 1]

Like, but, like, it's. Yeah. Disputed because carpentry wasn't, like, really a thing exactly. In the way that we conceive of it and the way that the Bible is translated and, like, historically, he probably was, like, more of, like, a bricklayer than, like, a carpenter.

[Evan Barker]

Okay.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

So Billy J. Is like, Jesus. Yeah. And he's amazing. I love him so much. And, yeah, he was like, one of the first people that. It was really shocking because he had been a Democrat his entire Life and in 2016 was like, hell, yeah, I'm voting for Trump. And I think part of it was, you know, this isn't, like, talked about as much anymore, but guns actually, like, seeing the Democrats went, like, really to the left on guns. I think after Sandy Hook. Right. You know, Bernie used to be, like, a pro gun Democrat, actually, or Democratic socialist, whatever.

[Host 2]

Anti immigration one, too.

[Evan Barker]

He was. Yeah, yeah. He called it like a Koch Brothers theme to destroy the working class. And that's another thing. I get really, like, animated about this because people don't realize that, like, in the middle of the country, like, these union guys. Part of the reason, you know, 70% of my uncle's local union voted for Trump is over things like immigration. Because their union ends up, like, being the consultants to, like, undocumented people.

[Host 2]

They're basically, like, hired to manage their own obsolescence. Exactly. Like, then they're laid off. Yeah. And, like, a bunch of not H1B's because we're talking about, like, low skill. Whatever. Yeah.

[Host 1]

And this last election, the last. The weekend right before, didn't Trump meet with, like, a carpenter's union in Pennsylvania?

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And it was. I forget what Kamala was doing.

[Evan Barker]

I mean, she's drinking wine.

[Host 2]

I think she just got a new house.

[Host 1]

She had, like, a concert.

[Evan Barker]

Oh, she's in Malibu. You know, I.

[Host 2]

The backdrop of this book is Basically how, like, the white working class in the heartland was abandoned by the Democrats who became like, the party of, like, the celebrity, global, like, rootless elite.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

But I want. I actually had a question on that note because I'm curious, like, who this book is for in the sense that, like, Dasha me, your lovely editor Paul, who's a friend of ours, like, people that you mentioned, shout out to him, like Batya Angar Sargon. She's great. Daniel Moran's like, all these people that, like, we know personally, like, they know the story like the back of their hand because they, like, saw it happen in real time and they comment on it. But, like, who do you think, like, is the audience for this book and who would it appeal to?

[Evan Barker]

Well, I think it's. It's naturally it's going to appeal to Republicans because they, you know, want the inside scoop on how crazy the Democrats are.

[Host 1]

Sure.

[Evan Barker]

Turns out they're pretty crazy, you know, behind closed doors. But I also think it's for, you know, people like me that have, you know, slowly become disaffected and disillusioned. I've got so many messages this week, you guys, from people that are like, I now understand, like, you put into words, like, all of the things I felt and connected the dots for me in like, a way that I didn't understand. Like, I didn't understand the evolution of the party. Like, what was happening on the inside and how the progressives really, like Bernie and AOC and Rashida and Ilhan and all those people sort of like transformed the party and really set the agenda. I mean, they had a lot of soft power, even if they didn't have raw, hard power. I write that in the book, like Nancy Pelosi, they were able to steer the agenda.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Host 1]

They pushed. Even the centrist stems further left on, like, cultural issues.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. And some economic, but mostly cultural.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

You have a good quote here where you say both wings captured each other's worst impulses. AOC became a loyal lapdog for the establishment, while the establishment embraced the most divisive aspects of progressive rhetoric. This merger came at the expense of the populist vision expressed in Bernie's 2016 campaign. All that economic populism had to be dropped. This party would focus on. On the culture wars. So basically we got the worst of both worlds, which is like cultural radicalism and then like economic elitism.

[Evan Barker]

Exactly.

[Host 2]

But I'm curious in, like, in your view, who co opted whom? Because it, from the outside looking in, it looks, it looked to people, I feel like that Bernie and AOC were co opted by the centrist establishment by like the Pelosi of the world. And there was a distinct shift from Bernie 2016 to Bernie 2020 when he fully walked back the his immigration stance specifically, and probably his gun stance. But it seems like, as you point out, the progressives really did weasel in

[Evan Barker]

the Democratic Party was co opted. It wasn't. It's. Yeah, it wasn't that Bernie and the AOC were co opted, it's that they actually infiltrated the party and then the swap was that we will champion your social justice issues because we actually don't want to talk about economics because we don't want to piss off our donors and then we don't really want to

[Host 1]

change on your side.

[Evan Barker]

Right. And the donors love the identity politics.

[Host 1]

They can pay like lip service to like progressive causes.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, exactly. And yes, there was a total shift. And I think part of the shift between Bernie in 2016 and 2020 was also internal pressure from like a lot of the like black and brown millennial girl bosses.

[Host 1]

Sean King spoke at his 2020 rally. Oh, right, yeah, yeah, I remember that.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, they had like a totally. He had like Chuck Rocha working for him, who I write about in the book, who like pressured. I would hear him on calls like pressuring politicians to hire more brown people, you know, like.

[Host 1]

No, I remember because I went to one of his first rallies in 2016.

[Evan Barker]

Sixteen. Yeah.

[Host 1]

And when I lived in LA, there was like almost no one there in Lincoln Heights. And he was talking like very like, like about like fixing potholes and really like things that like really actually mattered to like his constituents. And then when I went again to his rally, cuz I. I was ready to drink the Bernie Kool Aid again. I went in 2020 and I was like, oh, like it just felt so, like such a sham.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, it was such a sham. Were you ever into Bernie, Anna?

[Host 2]

I. I just liked that he was no frills.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And plain spoken.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I said this on the pod a bunch of times because, you know, as you point out, like having met the guy, he was not exactly the most pleasant guy to be around. Right. Like, he was kind of like a dick.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Kind of an.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And like somewhat impatient with like pleasantries and networking.

[Evan Barker]

He had to have all of the labels taken off his water bottle.

[Host 1]

What kind of, what kind of water was it?

[Evan Barker]

I don't know.

[Host 1]

Oh, because all the labels are gone.

[Host 2]

I just like, I've always weird. A natural aversion to socialists because like my parents fled a Communist country. And I like, don't trust them or buy anything.

[Evan Barker]

Neither does my family selling.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I. I liked Bernie as like an avatar. I still do in some ways. I have a Bernie poster, but it's an anti Semitic one.

[Host 1]

It's by a Jewish artist.

[Host 2]

Yeah, it is. By. Every time I'm like, on a zoom call, I have to, like, shift the computer to the left so nobody sees the poster.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

But, yeah, I, I don't think, like, whether or not you like Bernie, I think it was apparent that he was like, never going to be president.

[Evan Barker]

Right.

[Host 2]

But I really.

[Evan Barker]

They would never let one.

[Host 2]

Yeah, they wouldn't. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

I really thought he was.

[Host 1]

And I was like, yeah. I was like, I just want health care, honey. I was like, Bernie would have won.

[Evan Barker]

I mean. Yeah, I don't think. I don't know if he could have over. I thought about this too, because I had people that I knew that were all about Bernie, too. And then they voted for Trump in 2016.

[Host 1]

Many such.

[Evan Barker]

Because they wanted to take a sledgehammer to the system. And if it wasn't going to be Bernie, it was going to be Trump, you know, But I don't know if he really could have overcome. I think Trump was inevitable.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Right. As like a counterbalance. Yeah. And to the Obama years, people came

[Host 2]

up with all sorts of, like, elaborate, like, retarded justifications for why Trump won. And it's like, well, he ran on, like an anti, like, trade and immigration platform and that made people in the center of the country feel, like, seen and acknowledged.

[Evan Barker]

Exactly.

[Host 2]

And it was a reasonable bargain to make. I'm curious, actually, what you think of J.D. vance as another Midwestern political memoirist.

[Evan Barker]

I have political operative. I have a soft spot for JD Actually, I feel a kinship to him.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Evan Barker]

I can't help it. I don't know. I like him, actually. I'd be open to voting for him in 2028, but I don't. Is it okay if I take out my shoes?

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[Evan Barker]

Just like wearing them all day, you know? But, yeah, I have a soft spot for him. But, like, sometimes I don't know. He's a really good politician. I think he does the heart land

[Host 1]

feel the same way.

[Evan Barker]

What do you mean?

[Host 1]

Like, do you think he still speaks sort of to the. I think the demographics? Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. I actually, like, maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but I think he has a better chance of winning in 2028 than Rubio would.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I know a lot of people who are like, very pro Rubio because he Seems he's saying all the right things and he's like, really on the ball. But I guess a lot of people hate JD Vans, but.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, but people back where I'm from don't. Yeah, that's the thing. Like, it's like, it's more these, like, intellectual conservatives, I think, don't like J.D. vance. But, you know, all the people that I talked to that voted for Trump, like, many of them actually right now are disappointed, to be honest.

[Host 1]

Yeah, for sure.

[Evan Barker]

But they still, they like JD and they kind of look at him like, okay, well, maybe he will really do what Donald Trump promised.

[Host 1]

And then. Yeah. In one of your last chapters where you're kind of like, are addressing Republicans.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

You say, like, America for. You do still have to keep, like, America first.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. I say, like, you need to lead with America first. That needs to be the North Star. You can't go back to like the boring 1990s Bob Dole era Republican Party.

[Host 1]

And I know that's why people are disappointed in Trump.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, I feel like he kind of

[Host 1]

dropped the ball in that way.

[Evan Barker]

But I think JD's really smart because he's differentiating himself right now. Like, he is going in Rogan and, you know, talking about the war. And I know a lot of people don't like it, but I think he's actually like counter signaling and a really, really genius way.

[Host 2]

Well, I mean, I. Because I also have a soft spot for him to the extent that, like, it's just nice to see like a millennial person, like in my age who is articulate and explanatory and is not doing like, stupid irony memes, which really grinds my gears. But at the same time, I find him to be kind of a snake and a wheeler and dealer and like an elite Yalie who, like, probably embellished

[Host 1]

his past, which I don't trust me. I don't trust him.

[Evan Barker]

You don't trust him.

[Host 1]

But I'm like, you know, that's just a gut kind of feeling.

[Host 2]

There's something un.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I'm willing to obviously give him a chance, but it's also, like, not up to us, obviously. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

You guys are in New York.

[Host 2]

Well, what do you, what do you think of Trump at this point? Because, like, toward the end of the book, you know, you have like a total about face and like, long story short, you end up casting a vote for him.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And then meeting him and like, shaking hands.

[Evan Barker]

Did you guys vote for him?

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Yes.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Host 2]

I like, don't. People are always trying to get me to, like, apologize and say I regret it.

[Evan Barker]

No, I'm not gonna apologize either. I don't regret it.

[Host 2]

It was, like I said, it was like the. I think the. The right, like, choice. The right bargain to make. And it was also, like, fun to. It was to, like, lie and be like.

[Host 1]

No, that was a fun night.

[Evan Barker]

You know that I went to his Election Day party.

[Host 1]

Which one?

[Evan Barker]

In Palm Beach.

[Host 1]

Oh, no.

[Evan Barker]

And I went to the inauguration.

[Host 2]

Oh, fun.

[Host 1]

In D.C. yeah. We couldn't get in.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, I could have got you in. Oh, well, we knew each other.

[Host 1]

We were standing out in the cold,

[Host 2]

being, like, two prostitutes.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. I went to the Liberty. I went to the Liberty Ball. So. So after I. After I left the D, just like to get sight. Is it okay for sidetracking? Because I don't write about this in the book. Because it was, like, just so. I didn't want to go that far.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

You know, I just wanted to end with the election. But after the dnc, I met. After I left the DNC and I had that viral video. I went viral. Lara Trump reached out to me.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

And I did an interview with her, and she was, like, so nice and amazed. I mean, just, like, the cool. Like, she's like, I'll be your friend. And I did not believe her. I was like, okay, sure, Lara. Like, whatever. But, like, actually, she kept talking to me, and we would Talk on, like, IG DMing, you know, like, on Halloween. I, like, sent her my Halloween costume.

[Host 1]

What was your Halloween costume?

[Evan Barker]

It was like. We were. We were the Teletubbies.

[Host 2]

Oh, cute.

[Evan Barker]

We were all purple Teletubbies. My son picked it. Yeah. Oh. But then I was. You know, she hooked it up with it. And then. So for the election night, I was like, can I come? Like, that would be wild. Like, going from the dnc.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Like, I was kind of, like, all in. I was like, let's just. Let's just do it. And so I went to Palm beach, and I was there that night when JD And Trump and everybody came on the stage, and I was with all these guys in MAGA hats. It was, like, mostly men. And it was a crazy. I. It was a crazy night. It was like the. I screamed. I was, like, chanting. It felt like Obama. Yeah. It felt like when Obama won for me.

[Host 2]

I mean, that's how I felt when.

[Host 1]

That's populism, baby.

[Host 2]

The first time around. I've, like, told the story a million times, but I was, like, at a watch party with my, like, boyfriend at the time and his Friends. And I was, like, grinning like an idiot, and they were all like, what's wrong with you? You're sick in the hell.

[Evan Barker]

The boys were saying that to you.

[Host 2]

Mostly their wives and girlfriends, but I think the guys are miffed, too.

[Host 1]

But, like, this was 2016.

[Host 2]

Yeah, this was.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host 2]

But it is, like, politics is, like, a very intuitive.

[Evan Barker]

It is.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

I'm a very intuitive person, and I think, like, people, a lot of, like, Democrats now that I talk to, because, you know, I'm not a Republican. I didn't do, like, the. I'm gonna go and be a Republican now.

[Host 2]

I mean, we're Republicans. Like, it's hard.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, yeah. I'm politically homeless.

[Host 1]

Well, it's like, there's such a porousness. I feel like the party affiliation. It's like a fool's errand to, like, overly invest in any one party.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And believe that they'll be able to, like, represent you.

[Evan Barker]

Right.

[Host 1]

So just kind of, like, roll with it.

[Evan Barker]

You have to roll with that. Pick and choose.

[Host 1]

I'm a moderate.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, you're a moderate.

[Host 1]

I'm a moderate.

[Host 2]

And like, sometimes you do have to vote Republican down ticket because the Democrats are fumbling everything so bad.

[Evan Barker]

But city level.

[Host 1]

Yeah, but they're really bad at.

[Host 2]

Yes. I mean, in a city like New York, there's virtually no Republican presence, and it's just all Democrats. How do you feel about Momdani?

[Evan Barker]

I don't like him very much. I mean, I. Okay. I respect him as a politician. He's a really good campaign. Yeah, he ran a great campaign. I think the affordability message kind of, like, put the Democrats in the right direction. But, you know, he's like, I know the people that work with him. Like, I know his type. You know, I just. I think he's, like, divisive, and, you know, he wants to tax, like, rich and white people more. And, like, that wasn't an accident. The way that he put that on his website like that is. I describe it in my book as race class narrative, if you remember that part. Yeah. It's like a. An elite messaging tactic that is pushed by donors like Leah Hunt Hendricks that they think is going to, like, help them build a multiracial coalition. And I guess maybe it will in New York City. Like, it'll work here.

[Host 1]

Yeah, it has.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I mean.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. But it's not going to work nationally.

[Host 2]

No. No. But the demographics is destiny thing has played out in New York City, like, in the span of a couple of decades. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

It's weird, though, because there's like a. There's a large number of Jewish voters here. Right?

[Host 1]

There are.

[Host 2]

But Jews are split, right. Because there's a lot of like turbo left wing and socialist.

[Evan Barker]

The demographics of destiny necessarily for that vote. Yeah, right. I mean, a lot of them voted for Mamdani.

[Host 1]

Yeah, no, that's true. Well, I. You. There's a portion in your book where you talk about apac.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, I used to interface with them

[Host 1]

sometimes and I want to hear more. And to me like the. It really did feel like the Israel Gaza stuff really kind of threw like a wrench in the gears of like a conventional understanding of like social justice, you know, because obviously Jews are primarily like left lean.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host 1]

And that became this kind of like very like divisive issue. And I sort of had an. Obviously I know about apac.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

But I didn't realize how many, how much like. Because correct me if I'm wrong, but it's almost like they have people like pledge allegiance to them almost secretly because they can't afford to lose them.

[Evan Barker]

Yes, exactly. That's kind of how it works behind the scene. And so I talk about in the book this thing called the APAC neutralization strategy, which is what Jasmine Crockett had to do. So it's been like, usually if the candidate does it, they'll do it like in secret. They don't want their staff to know even sometimes other than maybe their campaign manager. Because the people that work in the Democratic Party are just very hostile to apac. And you know, they'll put out like a position paper where so APAC request, I don't know if you know this, that they request that all politicians put in writing their like beliefs on Israel. And so they have to write a paper. How.

[Host 2]

What authority do they have? Like, what right?

[Evan Barker]

Well, it's like if you want to get their endorsement or access to their donor networks.

[Host 2]

Yeah, okay. You have to.

[Host 1]

And that's like, that'll make or break you, basically.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Depending on your race. And like, if not your race, but your camp, you know, what district you're running in. So, you know, in 2022 they were getting really involved in progressive primary elections. So they. I remember there was like this woman named Nita Alum that I did super PAC for and they just like poured millions into her race. They poured millions into Cori Bush. Jamal Bowman got them out, kicked them out of office. And Jasmine was running at a pretty like it was like a seven way primary. And so, you know, there was a more moderate candidate in that Race. And so in order to make sure that AIPAC didn't spend against her, it wasn't even necessarily to get money from them or to.

[Host 1]

So that they wouldn't, like, throttle her.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, I don't think they even did any money. I don't think that there was any money from them, really. I don't think she's actually taken money from aipac. I could be wrong, but I don't think at that point in time she did. But it was just like putting out this position paper so that they had, like, on record, you know, her Israel

[Host 2]

stance, and she was, like, kissing their ring so that they.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, but Jasmine's, like, not very ideological. She's more just like, I'll play the game. Like, I'll take anybody's money. Like, I kind of almost respected that about her, actually. It was kind of refreshing in a little bit of. Of a way for me.

[Host 1]

Just politics seems so dirty.

[Evan Barker]

It is dirty. And so, like, if you want to get elected, you kind of have to be cutthroat. And, you know, she would take the corporate PAC money. She would take the special interest money. You know, she was totally down for crypto despite that.

[Host 2]

Well, sorry, go ahead. No, no, that was my. That's another question I had. Like, what's wrong with, like, hypothetically taking money from crypto donors versus any other organization?

[Evan Barker]

Well, I think that for progressives, they just think that if you're taking money from crypto or apac, that you are owned by them. And so you, you know, you will be influenced. Like, you're bought. They want all their candidates to not be bought. They want them to all be like, Bernie. Yeah, but Bernie's kind of bought and controlled by the young people that work in progressive politics that, like, force him to, like, like, go to the left on issues. Like, so, I mean, everybody's kind of

[Host 2]

bought in some way, as you say. Well, yeah.

[Evan Barker]

What?

[Host 1]

Why doesn't he just retire?

[Host 2]

I feel like he'll die if he retires. Yeah, it's like he's, like, trying to survive.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, so that's the. The apac. But, yeah, it was.

[Host 2]

It was interesting, but because Bernie was such a star and such a celebrity in his own right, he didn't have to do call time, which is like when politicians get on the horn and beg and plead with donors to give them money, which is, like, demoralizing for them.

[Evan Barker]

Demoralizing fun for me.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

You liked it?

[Evan Barker]

I always loved it.

[Host 1]

Have you seen the Devil Wears product, too?

[Evan Barker]

I saw the Devil. I Felt saw the first one. What about the second?

[Host 2]

I watched it.

[Host 1]

Well, I watched it last night. There's a part where Anne Hathway has to get. Has to call a bunch of people on the phone to try and get money. And I thought, oh, my God. Because I watched last night was this whole montage of shit. She's, like, making calls. And I was like. I was like, wow, that's, like, what Evan does. And it did make it seem so, like.

[Host 2]

Oh.

[Host 1]

It didn't feel like a casino.

[Evan Barker]

It's like a casino. Like, it's so much fun. If you guys ever want to run for office.

[Host 1]

No. Well, I phone banked for Bernie back in 2016. Not even, like, for fundraise. Like, just, like, remind people about the primaries. And I could.

[Host 2]

I was like, hello?

[Host 1]

Hello?

[Evan Barker]

Like, I couldn't.

[Host 1]

I was like, did you know the primary's coming up? And we'll be like, no.

[Host 2]

And I'd be like,

[Host 1]

well, you choked.

[Host 2]

So your tips and tricks for, like, running down sources and getting money from them were. Were really illuminating. But I can imagine once you've been doing this for, like, many years, you start to realize, like, how predictable human psychology is.

[Evan Barker]

Right.

[Host 2]

And I'm curious, like, if people ever, like, defied your expectations or impressed you or.

[Evan Barker]

I mean, in all honesty, it was, like, always the same. There was a few. Okay. There was a few people that I. I think I. So I came up with candidate archetypes. Yes. And I taught those archetypes at movement school. Yeah. I kind of spiced them up for the book. But, you know. But yeah, occasionally you'd get the person that I would call the machine, which is, like, sort of like a Gavin Newsom. Abdul Al Sayed. I don't know if you know who he is.

[Host 1]

The know it all. The machine, the influencer, the catastrophist, and the lost cause.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. But. So, you know, they're. Occasionally you'd find a machine. And they were extremely. I mean, they were like, a dream for a fundraiser to work with because they were just shameless. And they probably had, like, a higher degree of narcissism, and. Which I think is a requirement of the job, actually. I don't think it's, like, bad to have that as a politician. It's, like, actually worse if you don't, because.

[Host 1]

What are you even doing?

[Evan Barker]

You're not gonna.

[Host 2]

I can't even imagine, like, a politician who's not narcissistic.

[Host 1]

How'd you end up here?

[Evan Barker]

You're a lost clause. Yeah. And so, yeah, there were People like that. There were people that Abdul al Sayyad, actually, the guy who is that he's running right now, they call him Michigan momdani. He's running in Michigan for u. S. Senate. It's kind of like, you guys should pay attention to this race because. Okay, it is.

[Host 1]

We'll try.

[Evan Barker]

It's like. Or I mean. Or don't. I wish I could, like, escape politics right now. But it's gonna be my life for the next few months as I do book promo. But it's basically Bernie versus AOC or, sorry, Bernie versus Hillary in 2016 happening in Michigan because progressives have never been able to prove their theory of change. They've never been able to prove that they can win in places like Michigan and swing districts. They've never won there. They only win in blue districts. And so Abdul is running in Michigan, which it's a swing state, and he's taking on a woman named Haley Stevens, who's the AIPAC candidate. And he's running his campaign of being, like, anti aipac, and he's also, like, affiliated with the DSA and AOC and Bernie have endorsed him. And so it's like millions and millions of dollars are pouring into this race from both sides. And if he ends up winning, here's the stakes. If he ends up winning the primary, which I think he will, we'll find out on Tuesday.

[Host 1]

Oh, yeah, that was my question. When is the election?

[Host 2]

Tuesday.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. If he ends up winning his primary, which I think he will, then he goes to the general against the Republican. And if he wins, if Abdul El Sayed, when that state against the Republican, it means progressives are in charge in 2028 because it means the Democratic party has failed.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Evan Barker]

The establishment is over. Like, that's what it means for progressives. So it's going to be a huge race. And I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up running for president. I worked for him. He already bought, like, abdul for president websites in, like, 2017.

[Host 2]

Huh. You know, I mean, yeah, I guess it's a long shot that he would ever win, though he could run for president. I mean, but it would still Michigan.

[Evan Barker]

It's the Michigan thing. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like, if you're from Michigan, you know, you basically have the rust belt, right? Theoretically. And that's where.

[Host 1]

And then you sort of say, like, Texas too, basically. Like, well, yeah, like, everything's kind of like, downstream from the spell.

[Evan Barker]

Everything's. I mean, they have to win the blue wall, and that's where They've always failed. And so that's why it's so key. Like that state in particular.

[Host 2]

Why are. Why have they always failed?

[Evan Barker]

Well, I guess they're. They used to win it. They used to win it because of the work, because of people like my family, because jobs that were shipped away. You know, you probably hear Bhatia talk about a lot about that. And it's true, like, yes, automation was already happening, but in places like Michigan, the impacts were a lot. They were really bad.

[Host 1]

You know, Detroit was like apocalyptic.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I mean, every major, like, Midwestern city was like an industrial city. It's like, very sad what happened to them because they were like cultural hubs. There's beautiful architecture. And now it's like.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. And Democrats have become the party of free trade now, whereas the Republicans are the party of not being free. You know, Donald Trump tariffs.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Evan Barker]

Like his favorite word or whatever. So I think, I think if they can, they have to win the blue wall and they haven't been. That's why Trump's won twice. And I think, you know, if you have somebody like Abdul coming in as a progressive, as like a Medicare for all champion, anti apac, abolish ice, deep on the police. That's, you know, those are his. Those are his.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And who are the Republicans that he would be running against?

[Evan Barker]

I don't know. Some. He's really boring.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

But what do you think? I mean, maybe it's like a stupid question to ask ahead of Tuesday, but what do you think is the future of the Democratic Party?

[Evan Barker]

I think the progressives are ascendant. I think Mamdani is the leader now.

[Host 2]

And what would you like the future to be?

[Evan Barker]

I would like it to be something that doesn't exist and probably won't exist, but I think the establishment is hollow and empty and doesn't really stand for anything. And I think the progressives are just like too crazy and far the left and they're not going to be able to win national elections. So I think ideally in my world, it would be like a new type of Democrat that kind of like hearkens back to fdr. That's like an anti. They're an anti.

[Host 1]

Well, that was the wish of Trump, sort of.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. It was like an FDR Republican. Yeah, yeah. And like a Republican version of fdr. Yeah. And so. Which I also would be totally open to. And that's my hope for the Republican Party as well. But I think an anti progressive populist.

[Host 1]

Well, yeah, that's. I had. My question was like, who Is there anyone in politics who has like, economic populism with like, socially, culturally moderate views that don't alienate?

[Evan Barker]

Is there anybody? There's this woman named Marie Gluson Camp Perez.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Evan Barker]

She's really beautiful. Look her up. Marie Gluson Camp Perez, mgp.

[Host 2]

I see.

[Host 1]

Oh, I. From Washington. I've seen her. I. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

And she likes Zen, I heard.

[Host 1]

Huh.

[Evan Barker]

She. She has that.

[Host 1]

She uses Zen like nicotine pouches.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

So she's unstoppable.

[Evan Barker]

She's really cool.

[Host 1]

Interesting.

[Evan Barker]

But yeah, she has like moderate social views, but she's more like. She actually focuses on like the bread and butter economic issues in like a real way.

[Host 1]

I found out about her when she was talking about saw. Saw stop regulations, which.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, she's really nerdy. She'll get in. What did she say about that?

[Host 1]

She was anti. Well, there's like, oh, this is so boring. I only know this because my husband's a carpenter and he hurt himself.

[Evan Barker]

Your husband's a carpenter? Like, Jesus.

[Host 1]

Okay, wait, no, he hurt himself on a table saw.

[Host 2]

Oh.

[Host 1]

And now in a lot of like, wood shops, it's required to have this like technology that this company has a monopoly on. Saw stop. That basically stops a saw from hurting you, but it's actually like it hinders actually people from doing woodworking because it's like you can't put use like any conductive materials on it. You know, like, if wood's a little like wet, it'll just stop. It's a whole rigor moral. It's like.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

So she was trying to pass some legislation, basically make it better.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, yeah. She does good stuff. I love her. But the. The progressives hate her because she's not. Because she won't do what they. Like, she didn't want to abolish ice, like vote to defund ice.

[Host 1]

And she's a Democrat.

[Evan Barker]

She's like. Yeah. She's like an old school Dem. She's far and few between. You know, somebody like that. I would be so excited, you know?

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Maybe I should run.

[Host 2]

You could.

[Host 1]

Do you want to?

[Evan Barker]

No.

[Host 2]

Yeah, that's the thing. It's like the people who have the right ideas and who should be running, like, don't want to do that because they have like families and are making money in other ways. And it's like a thankless job where you will be destroyed. So.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, I'll be destroyed. It's not hard to find skeletons in my closet. It's pretty easy.

[Host 2]

Well, you said, you said you should never delete anything, which I Agree with.

[Evan Barker]

Right.

[Host 2]

Because people will find it one way or another. And it's like your hamster is not deletable. But should you just lean into all of your skeletons if they're not so bad? Like if you're not like a pedophile, let's say.

[Host 1]

Yeah, well, that's like the Trumpian strategy.

[Evan Barker]

I know, but Democrats don't do that. Yeah. I don't know why they're trying with Graham Platner.

[Host 1]

No.

[Host 2]

What happened there? I don't.

[Evan Barker]

He got me tooed.

[Host 2]

Huh?

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, I don't, I don't know if, like, there's no charges.

[Host 1]

I know Gavin Newsom has some gnarly.

[Evan Barker]

Oh, yeah, I bet.

[Host 1]

I can just tell.

[Evan Barker]

That's why he's always silent when these sex scandals happen. He like never is like, you know, calling the kettle, as they say.

[Host 1]

I wanted, I liked this part where you, you sort of get into like the archetypes of operatives.

[Evan Barker]

Huh.

[Host 1]

The lifers, which you sort of identified as at some point, fame seekers. And you say some operatives are purely ideologically driven. I call them the pure hearted. They go into politics to change things. They believe they can be the difference they want to see in the world. They are often young, without a ton of experience, and if they last in politics, they learn over time it isn't what it's cracked up to be and leave. Still, many are not actually pure hearted. They simply want power or a place to exercise their worst impulses. They picked the Democratic Party to do this because they still want to be seen as good people to the rest of the world. In terms of cultural influence, mainstream institutions often perceive the right as lacking moral integrity. And I guess my question is like, what percentage would you say of political operatives are genuinely pure hearted? And how many can last?

[Evan Barker]

I think probably 20% that have longevity. Oh, no, they don't last. Yeah, like, yeah, the most pure hearted person that I used to work with is like now completely out.

[Host 1]

They go into like academia.

[Evan Barker]

They go, yeah, he's like going to graduate school at Harvard.

[Host 2]

Life is like 80, 20 applies to everything.

[Evan Barker]

80, 20. Yeah. No, I'd say like 20%. And then they just, they get like used and abused and. Or they just get, they almost become lifers, but they're like on the verge of that because it's like so much fun. Yeah. You know, I talk about this concept of the bubble in my book, which is like when you're around a politician with a lot of power and influence, like, I don't know if you've ever seen the bubble you kind of know it when you see it. Like, even just. It could be a celebrity, maybe, but it's especially profound with a politician because of the, like, power that they have.

[Host 2]

Well, I guess we met Trump that one time.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

So he. Did you see his bubble?

[Host 1]

He had aura. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

So there was like a. An entourage, Right. Like, kind of like surrounding him, and, like, everybody turned and it was like the energy in the room was all electric. That's the bubble. And it's like when you're inside of it, when you're with that person.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Then it's, like, totally intoxicating.

[Evan Barker]

It's like a drug. It's. It's a. It's a. The best drug you could ever take. And that's how you become a lifer.

[Host 2]

Right. Because you're, like, always chasing the dragon. You're like a heroine.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. That's why Bernie won't retire, right?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

I just.

[Host 2]

I think he really does need it to go on living because, like, that's, like, that's what animates him. Like, he would wither up and die if somebody was like, bernie, you're out of the game now. You have to go, like, garden

[Evan Barker]

or

[Host 2]

whatever old men do.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, yeah. Hang out with Joe Biden. What do you guys think about Bernie's AI stuff? Just curious.

[Host 2]

I don't.

[Evan Barker]

I'm not familiar. He put out this, like, referendum that he wants to, like, ban all data centers. And, like, what do you. Do you ever think about AI?

[Host 2]

I mean, I've been using it a lot randomly because I've been going on chat GPT, like, couple a. Exploring astro charts, getting medical advice. I think, like. Well, I think one of those things that, like, shouldn't be democratized.

[Evan Barker]

Uhhuh.

[Host 2]

Also like, 8020. Yeah, but.

[Host 1]

Yeah, but I have. I don't know. I was very, like, anti AI, just, like, out of a sheer, like, fear response. And now I'm kind of more moderate slash indifferent.

[Evan Barker]

I guess it's kind of being fun being pro AI.

[Host 1]

The data centers feel a little, like, overblown to me. Icky, like. Yeah, like, I understand. But then I'm like, there has to be more to this. They can't just be, you know.

[Evan Barker]

You know, my uncle is building a data center and union construction, and he's like, it's the best job I've ever had.

[Host 1]

Wow.

[Evan Barker]

They pay so well. They're so nice. They bring in a masseuse to, like, give the guys, like, stretches.

[Host 2]

That's how they gain their cater lunch.

[Evan Barker]

He's like, I want to Build a data center forever.

[Host 1]

I'd like to be optimistic, but my instinct is to be cynical. But ideally, yeah, I could usher in, like, an era of prosperity in some

[Host 2]

ways, or even, like, the illusion of prosperity is fine. If people are, like, lulled into some kind of pleasant, like, pleasurable dystopia. That's, like, fine with me. As long as people aren't being, like, tortured and tormented.

[Evan Barker]

Do you think it's possible that it ends up just, like, taking all of our jobs and that then take a lot of.

[Host 2]

No, but it will take a lot.

[Evan Barker]

But, like, we're in perpetual, like, George Floyd summer, where everybody is getting paid by the government, nobody's working, and that

[Host 1]

seems really bad to me.

[Evan Barker]

I know. That's the scary part.

[Host 1]

That's what I liked about the Pope. Leo's encyclical that he wrote. Actually, he made a lot of good points, but the most salient, I thought, was where he talked about, like, the inherent dignity of work. And it's not enough just to, like, like, give people ubi. Like, people need purpose, Right. They need, like.

[Evan Barker]

I agree.

[Host 1]

There's, like, a moral.

[Host 2]

Right?

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, well, yeah.

[Host 2]

But the sad thing is, like, work has lost so much of its inherent dignity because people aren't, like, carpenters and homemakers anymore, and they're, like, working, like, shitty email jobs, like, compiling that, like, may as well. Spreadsheets. Yeah.

[Host 1]

That are already exactly, like, totally.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

So I'm hopeful for AI could, like, save my disease or something.

[Host 1]

I think in medicine, probably. It'll be great.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

I hope.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Were you worried? I mean, when you were, like, in. In the thick of it, like, working as, like, an operative, you know, partly because you had this disorder that you had to manage. Like, were you worried that it would just, like, make it flare up and

[Evan Barker]

make it worse all the time? Oh, my God. Cortisol, girls. I was. I was always in the hospital, like. Like, I would, like, go fly to a Visit a campaign, and then go to a debate, watch my candidate debate, you know, give her my notes. And then I'd be like, I'm gonna just go to the emergency room. I'll see you in a few days. But then. But then I would work.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

The whole time I was in the hospital. I'd be, like, doing zoom calls, like, making people, like, with my bed, and I would be, like, levitating it forward. I'd be like, all right, let's. Okay, hold on. My nurse needs to get. Okay. Yeah, let's keep going. That was me. I don't know. I Just. I loved my job and just really liked working. And what?

[Host 1]

Do you miss it?

[Evan Barker]

I do.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

I do miss it. I miss it all the time.

[Host 2]

Would you ever go back to it?

[Evan Barker]

No. Not the way that they are now. I have Republicans offering me jobs.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I figured. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Oh, yeah. Like, totally. But the problem is that I don't feel.

[Host 1]

I don't think it's, like, better.

[Host 2]

No.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. That's the problem is that I'm just like, okay, I'm gonna go in and then I'm gonna end up writing, like, nothing. Right.

[Host 2]

You know, but that's not. That's not about. Not right anymore.

[Evan Barker]

They're not gonna trust me. Well, I feel like you're in a

[Host 2]

great position now because you wrote, like a political bestseller and some. Somebody might hire you to teach. That's a possibility.

[Evan Barker]

I got asked to teach a class at University of Texas or something. A. M. They want me to teach a political class, which is really cool. But, yeah, teaching. I don't know. I don't know what I'm gonna do. So. That's the problem. I don't really ever have a plan that's good. People think I have plans, and I'm like, I never. I just really, truly live, like, day to day.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Very impulsive. I told a reporter that when he asked me about my. My vote for Trump, I was like, it was a little impulsive.

[Host 2]

Yeah. You know, I don't know. That's the best way to do it. You have to, like. Raw Dog Scorpio.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Well, what's your Rising Aquarius.

[Host 1]

That's.

[Host 2]

Well, that's why.

[Host 1]

That's why you're such a good communicator.

[Evan Barker]

Really? Yeah. I don't know as much about it. Like, tell me.

[Host 1]

You got to use Chat gps.

[Host 2]

You have to download an app that. That spits out a chart, plug the chart into Chat GPT, then it'll give you the rundown. That's, like, how I do it. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Is that a good combination? Yeah.

[Host 2]

Well, Aquari. Aquari are, like, very futuristic. They're. Yeah. In terms of their communication style, their ability to, like, roll with it and not over plan. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

What did you guys think of the Billy Jack references in the book? Have you ever seen the movie?

[Host 2]

No. I had no idea what you were talking about.

[Host 1]

I could tell it had a really

[Host 2]

impact on you, too. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Okay. Part of me putting him in the book so much was my favorite movie ever. My grandma showed it to me when I was seven. It's from 1972. It's the most successful independent film of all time.

[Host 1]

Oh, wow.

[Evan Barker]

Actually. And like nobody knows it anymore except for really old men.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Evan Barker]

They always message. They message me and they're like, I love Billy Jack. Old men love me. But yeah, I put it in the. In the book. So like Quentin Tarantino, like, do you remember that movie? It was like about Hollywood, had Brad Pitt in it.

[Host 2]

Oh, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Yeah. So. So Brad Pitt's character was based on Billy Jack's character.

[Host 2]

That makes sense.

[Evan Barker]

So Quentin is a big fan of this movie, but it's kind of a cult movie and I wanted people to watch it again by putting it in the book.

[Host 1]

Resurgence. Yeah.

[Host 2]

I'm cur.

[Evan Barker]

Should watch it.

[Host 1]

I will.

[Evan Barker]

It's. It's kind of silly now because it was made in the 60s and it's like very like that era.

[Host 2]

Yeah. The golden age American.

[Host 1]

I mean, the political fundraising did remind me a lot of like trying to get people to give you money for an independent film, which is also kind of similarly like really degrading but. But like rewarding when it works.

[Evan Barker]

Do you have to hustle as much when you're doing it?

[Host 1]

Well, you don't have exactly have like a list in the same way and there's less infrastructure. But yeah, you have to be like creative and you have to figure out like how to like con people.

[Host 2]

Basically use your feminine wild. Yeah.

[Host 1]

Cuz there's very little like ROI and Yeah. Investing in films.

[Evan Barker]

I mean, same in politicians.

[Host 1]

Yeah. So you have to like make it worth their while. And you know, pre. Me too. You could get a producer. Be like, maybe you'll get to have sex with an actress. But no more y. Now we do things all different. But I like the bits in about celebrity.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

About Alec Baldwin and stuff. And I guess it's maybe an obvious question, but why do you think, like the Democrats do have such a stronghold on celebs?

[Evan Barker]

Well, celebrities, they can't be conservative.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

You know, they can only be conservative after they've kind of like fallen from the height of their careers.

[Host 2]

Yeah. When they're old.

[Evan Barker]

When they're old.

[Host 2]

James woods or whoever.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Mel Gibson rock. Vince Vaughn. He was at the inauguration.

[Host 2]

Oh, right.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. So they're just. There's not a lot.

[Host 1]

They're not.

[Evan Barker]

Sydney Sweeney is, I think, a Republican.

[Host 1]

Well, she's got. Yeah. She's very. She's very like smart not to like align herself, but obviously with her family and everything, someone can assume. And she gets a lot of blowback for it.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. I tried to get her to read the book. I tried.

[Host 1]

Maybe you could sell the movie rights and she could play you.

[Host 2]

Yeah, so true.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, that would be cool. There's a lot of opportunities. Yeah. But no, I think the celebrities is just like, it's, it's that, you know, they want to be seen as moral and they want to be seen as like aligning with like the good party, the party of social justice.

[Host 1]

And, and why did you get in trouble for? Cuz you got Susan Sarandon to like endorse some candidate. Yeah, and why? Because she's not a Republican.

[Host 2]

Yeah, because she's like, you went like you sidestepped the campaign.

[Evan Barker]

I did that a lot. Yeah, I was always doing that. But no. So she donated to this candidate I was with and this woman named Christina. And I was like, oh my God. I called Christina and she's like, I love Thelma and Louise. Like, let's do it. Yes, yes, yes. We already had Alec Baldwin and so we're like, yeah, you know, this will help us get votes. Not celebrities don't really help get votes. But then we put out her endorsement almost immediately. Christina and I did. And then within like an hour, it was like blowing up. And all of these people got so mad and they were like, why? They hate her. Democrats hate her because of Bernie stuff.

[Host 2]

Oh, because she's a progressive and not a centrist.

[Evan Barker]

Because she said, I don't vote with my vagina. And then she encouraged lies to encourage everyone to vote for Jill Stein.

[Host 1]

Oh, right.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Evan Barker]

So these Hillary donors were calling me and they were like, whoever's idea that was needs to be fired immediately. And I was like, you're like, I'll, I'll let them know. Yeah, I'll make some calls. And then the campaign deleted the endorsement. Which I was like, why are you like, let's not delete it. Let's just like keep posting. Let's post through it. It'll like go away.

[Host 1]

Always post through it.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. And then, and then her office like emails us and emails me and they're like, why did you delete this? Like, what, what, what? What happened? Like, are we not endorsing you anymore?

[Host 2]

What a show. That part did spike my cortisol. Cuz I was like, damn, that must have sucked.

[Evan Barker]

And then we had to write them back. And I think the campaign manager said something like it was really dumb. He was like, we just want to be an inclusive campaign and so we need to like retract the endorsement.

[Host 1]

Do you think you could have written this book even like four years ago? No, it feels very, like, timely.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Like, people are ready to.

[Evan Barker]

People are ready to hear it, to talk about it. And I think it's, like, really good because a lot of people have questions about these DSA candidates. They don't realize that it's all the. All the people that I read about my book, like, all these organizations, Justice Democrats, like, they recruited Darieliza Chevalier, that woman that's against interracial relationships that just won. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Wait, what?

[Evan Barker]

You guys are like, what. What's happening?

[Host 2]

Wait, she's against interracial relationships from the left, not from the right. Well, it is really funny how the left and the right really do, like, horseshoe to the same. They do, like, conclusions.

[Evan Barker]

The extremes.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. And so, yeah, she's against center, and she's. She's probably the most radical person that's ever been elected to Congress.

[Host 2]

Is she a woman of color?

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Does she have a white husband?

[Evan Barker]

They usually do. She has, like, an app. She's Afro Latina, I think. But she. Yeah, she has some, you know, abolished prisons. Like. Oh, she's for. She says that there should be no deportations ever, even if, like, a crime is committed.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Evan Barker]

But, yeah, Justice Democrats recruited her, and I know the person that ran her campaign. I worked with them at movement school.

[Host 2]

The Justice Democrats seem scary.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Everybody. Everybody's scared of them. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Especially the white guy.

[Evan Barker]

Wait, which white guy?

[Host 2]

There's, like, an Indian guy and a white guy.

[Host 1]

I don't know.

[Host 2]

I was. There's so many white guys looking the two.

[Host 1]

You were trying to get eyes on them.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, yeah,

[Host 2]

yeah. They. They freak me out, like, more than I. I was looking at the list of names of, like, all the people that they, like, helped elect from your book and thinking, like, well, given. Of course I stand with Nancy Pelosi.

[Evan Barker]

Oh, my God, you guys.

[Host 1]

What?

[Evan Barker]

Should I be saying this? Like, whatever.

[Host 1]

If you want us to cut something.

[Evan Barker]

No, it's fine. There's, like, this radio station. They want me to do, like, a sit down with Nancy Pelosi.

[Host 2]

You should.

[Evan Barker]

And, like, confront her.

[Host 2]

You should.

[Host 1]

That would be really interesting.

[Evan Barker]

She won't do it.

[Host 1]

She probably won't.

[Evan Barker]

There's no way. Yeah, I would love to, though. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Well, another. Speaking of interracial relationships, another thing you mention in the book is how AOCs, like, white ginger husband was her social media and political strategist, effectively. So he was the one, like, coming up with all these bright ideas for, like, rage baiting and stirring up controversy.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. And all of her lives and everything. Like, he was kind of like the strategic shadow force.

[Host 1]

Are they married?

[Evan Barker]

I don't think they ever got married. Yeah, they're having a long engagement for, like, 20 years. The situation, like, what is going on there? But, yeah, he was.

[Host 1]

Well, I have a question.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

With, like, it's clear, like, the trajectory of how disillusioned you became. And then you got married.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Which.

[Evan Barker]

Congrats.

[Host 1]

But then that gave you kind of, like. And obviously, like, motherhood, like, you know, also influence, like, your political leanings and stuff. But, like, your marriage did kind of give you, like, an escape hatch in a way. And what do you think, had you not gotten married and you still had to grind, what do you think you would do?

[Evan Barker]

I would have still been in it.

[Host 1]

You would have kept. Do you think you would have kept

[Evan Barker]

working for, I think, longer than I did.

[Host 1]

Do you think you would have done some DEI workshops to stay afloat?

[Evan Barker]

I. I think to keep my health care. I mean. Yeah, I. I really do. I think marriage kind of saved me. Thank God. Like, it was, like, really stabilizing for me. It was the most stabilizing.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Force in my life has been my marriage and my family, with my husband. You know, I saw my dad get married five times, my mom six times. You know, there was never really any stability.

[Host 1]

And so it's nice your husband's so supportive.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. At first, it really freaked him out.

[Host 1]

Well, you get into it a bit of, like, the dynamics in the Bay Area. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. I didn't want to, like, because, like, one of the reasons that we first matched is because he saw we matched on Tinder, is because I had my. My photos were, like. First one was me and Bernie. Yeah. Why did I do that?

[Host 1]

Because you're trying to meet.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Like, catfishing political content.

[Evan Barker]

And then the next one was, like, me singing because I play music, too, just for fun, and so does my husband. So we kind of have, like, a little band that is cute. People are probably gonna find the music we haven't, like, so.

[Host 2]

Nice. Because you can play it with your son. That's great.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah, yeah, we play. We play music with him. We do, like, Keep on the Sunny side. Yeah, we do a lot of, like, folk music and, like, alternative country. I love country music, so. But, yeah, I don't even know, but he. It was just so, like, I just feel really lucky that I was able to find someone that even through. I think me voting for Donald Trump was probably the hardest thing he and I have ever gone through, actually, because he was not a fan of Donald Trump. He went with me to meet Trump. Yeah. And he. He smiled the photo. Like, he, like, he did it for me. You know, he didn't really want to do it, but he, like, came and we brought our son.

[Host 2]

That's real love.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. And then, you know, he's. He's been there, and at this point, you know, he really didn't like the way I was treated in progressive politics. Like, he got turned off from them, you know, but he didn't go so far as I did. And so, you know, it was hard. We did, like, one therapy session. We don't believe in couples therapy. It's, like, not our. You know, we can just do it ourselves, figure things out. But, you know, we got through it, and now he's, like, loving it.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

He's like, hell, yeah.

[Host 1]

Them, like, usually, like, the genders are in flip.

[Evan Barker]

I know. I'm the more right wing. And he's.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Isn't that funny?

[Host 2]

That is funny.

[Host 1]

Even pre Tron by a member like Bernie Bros. And they're like Hillary supporting girlfriends, having, like, acrimony.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host 1]

Breaking up and stuff.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. We have a sort of bipartisan relationship. But, I mean, it's healthy.

[Host 1]

It works.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. It's not. It's not extreme. I think we're a lot closer.

[Host 1]

Well, you're an independent.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. I think he's sort of evolved, too, on some of his fears.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

From being.

[Host 2]

I'm sure. Yeah. But I think, like, you know, as you point out, like, getting married and having kids really just changes your outlook on these things. And you want, like, a more. More robust economic platform and a more moderate cultural platform.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Because children obviously require moderation.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Living in San Francisco as a toddler was, like, really crazy.

[Host 2]

So I wonder how much of this, like, progressivism is literally buffeted by the fact that there's this massive demographic change underway. Not racially speaking, but in terms of, like, gender dynamics. Because, like, no one's really getting married or having kids.

[Evan Barker]

I know.

[Host 2]

So, yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. It's like, maybe J.D. nance was right.

[Host 1]

About what?

[Evan Barker]

About the childless cat women.

[Host 2]

Well, people, like, really, like, find this to be, like, a controversial and contestable statement, and they always assume that you're, like, installing yourself on a moral high ground, but it's just factually, observably true. Because, like, where to, like, childless, unmarried people will go? I mean, I think they sink a lot of their hopes into politics.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Evan Barker]

Politics. Their jobs. Like, their houses.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Their vacations to Bali.

[Host 1]

Well, politics gives people, like, moral authority that they can hang on to. In lieu of, like, real moral obligations to people in their lives, you know?

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Yeah. It becomes their children.

[Host 1]

That's.

[Evan Barker]

That's right.

[Host 1]

And, yeah, like you said, it's like, it gives them an arena to exercise their, like, worst, most antisocial impulses under the guise of, like, social justice.

[Host 2]

Yeah. In, like, a socially acceptable and even encouraged way.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

But, like, even that, I think, like, I'm a moderate on this because society does require a small fringe amount of activists, like people like Larry Kramer, of course, who are, like, die hard messianic types who are, like a thorn in everybody's side. But the problem is, like, that, too, has been democratized. Like, everybody's, like, a political activist now.

[Evan Barker]

Everybody.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

It's like the new hipster or something, right?

[Host 1]

Yeah. Most people should just be checked out, like, clavicular.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Politics is just.

[Evan Barker]

Esther.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

You know, he went to Israel and he was like, I don't. Is there a war going on?

[Host 2]

I don't know.

[Evan Barker]

Just here to go clubbing. Yeah.

[Host 1]

True, pure, truly pure heart.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Is there anything else? Nothing left is available now.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Climbing the. The charts. Yeah. Hoping to make the bestseller list. We'll see what happens.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Big congrats.

[Evan Barker]

Thank you. This is so cool, you guys. I used to. You were my therapy for you.

[Host 1]

Oh, we appreciate it.

[Evan Barker]

Like, you got me through these years with these people, so it's, like, kind of amazing and beautiful for me to be able to.

[Host 2]

I really appreciate. To everyone who says we've never contributed anything to the culture or touched lives.

[Host 1]

I'm glad you made it out.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Host 1]

Thanks for.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I hope you're coming on the show. Crack the bestseller. I think it'll happen.

[Evan Barker]

Well, we're on the radar. The New York Times requested a couple of the books a few days ago, so that means they're probably reading it because they're seeing that it's. That it's selling so awesome.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

I have no idea how it works, though. Like, I don't know what their formula is or.

[Host 1]

It's probably rigged.

[Host 2]

But not for you. No.

[Evan Barker]

You're like. You not making the right. It's okay. Even if I don't like, whatever. I wrote a book. Yeah.

[Host 2]

He wrote a book. Yeah. That's a massive, major feat. Yeah.

[Evan Barker]

Yeah. With the best editor ever.

[Host 2]

Shout out to him. Yeah. Schwa out.

[Host 1]

Thanks, Evan.

[Evan Barker]

Thank you.

[Host 2]

Soon.

[Host 1]

Hell.

[Evan Barker]

Ra.