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Clayton (6:57)

One of the major revelations from the Epstein files is that Michael Jackson appears to have been framed by the very people who actually were doing the abusing of children. If you don't recall, in the 1990s Michael Jackson was accused of sexually abusing specifically young boys. One case led to a civil settlement, which Jackson later said he wished he had not done. He wished he had fought it in court. Another did lead to a criminal trial, and he was acquitted on all charges. Here was his settlement statement at the time, asserting his unequivocal innocence.

Michael Jackson (archive clip) (7:29)

I ask all of you to wait and hear the truth before you label or condemn me. Don't treat me like a criminal because I am innocent. It was a nightmare, horrifying nightmare. But if this is what I have to endure to prove my innocence, my complete innocence, so be it. Throughout my life, I have only tried to help thousands upon thousands of children to live happy lives. It brings tears to my eyes when I see any child who suffers. I am not guilty of these allegations. But if I am guilty of anything, it is of giving all that I have, all that I have to give to help children all over the world. It is of loving children of all ages and races. It is of gaining sheer joy from seeing children with their innocent and smiling faces. It is of enjoying through them the childhood that I missed myself.

Clayton (8:27)

Okay, I get emotional watching that because I too, was raised a Jehovah's Witness. So I have this connection with Michael Jackson about sort of a different type of childhood. So Clayton warns me not to get emotional about it. Now, the press used his friendship with child actor Macaulay Culkin as proof that he was this weirdo who had an inappropriate obsession with young boys. But recently, this clip of Culkin is going viral where he says that Jackson actually protected him from specifically going to the island.

Natalie (9:00)

Never forget that Michael Jackson saved me from getting on a plane to that tiny island.

Clayton (9:06)

All right, Aaron Carter also said something similar. Here he is in 2016. Now, recall, he died in 2022, but he laid it out clearly that the FBI and his mother were trying to get him to say something because he was a child, and he refused. Watch.

Aaron Carter (archive clip) (9:22)

I have to tell you this, okay? So after I left the party and the next day, I smoked weed with Michael. And then I get. I get in the limousine, I leave, I get back to the sheriff's and hotel at Universal over here. There's four FBI agents waiting for me in the hotel room. And my mom's there and she's like, tell them what happened. And I'm like, what do you mean, tell them what happened? And I sit down with them and they all get asked these super sexually exploited, you know, questions back backsided questions. And I knew that at my age already. And I looked at all four of them and I said, I said, are y' all crazy. I said, what you think I'm gonna do? Tell you that Michael did something bad so that we. We can sue him for money? That's what I told him. I was like, you're cr. And I looked over my mom and I was like, are you serious, Mom? I was like, what is going on here? Why are you letting this happen? And she goes. She goes, well, she goes, I think something happened. You know, I think I'm like, really? That man did nothing but be hospitable, kind, loving, giving, everything you can think of.

Clayton (10:41)

All right, well, the person we wanted to talk about this to was Ian Carroll. He's a researcher, independent journalism or independent journalist. He went viral. It's been two years now since this video, this eight minute video about Michael Jackson, connecting him to Diddy and the Diddy trials and Epstein. It was brilliant. And that's why people trust you. So we wanted to bring you in and talk about what you already knew. What the connections you made with Diddy and now the connections we can make with Epstein. So let's go. Let's do it. Thank you for coming.

Ian Carroll (11:12)

Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me on. It's good to talk to you guys again. And it's wild how Michael Jackson, like these ghosts that they prop up for sort of their propaganda narratives keep on. They keep on trying to replay it because they. It almost feels like they invested so much in the smear of Michael Jackson that they're trying to just milk it for all it's worth. And fortunately, independent journalists, not just myself, lots of people are kind of digging open these old lies that. That no longer quite hold the water that they use to carry for these people.

Natalie (11:44)

Before we get into all the Epstein pieces of this and how this connects, I just want to say it seems like all of the signals were there for all of us. Right? But most people, the mainstream media, they wouldn't pick them up. They were intentionally looking the other way. When you heard from people like Corey Feldman or Macaulay Culkin, and they were saying, no, he was a good person. He was trying to protect us. And no one wanted to hear that. Or at least of all the mainstream media, they wanted to go with the angle that was being pushed.

Ian Carroll (12:12)

Absolutely. I mean, during that whole era of smears and accusations, the FBI investigated Michael Jackson for 10 years and found no credible evidence. You can read those reports online. You can even read it on Michael Jackson's Wikipedia page. They confiscated all of his hard drives and found absolutely nothing. It really. It shows you. It's one of the most Explicit examples of how the media can create a story out of nothing and how they can do that in parallel to actual law enforcement investigations that show the direct opposite of what the media is painting. And it also shows. It's a perfect example of how, especially in Hollywood, those sorts of smears and paparazzi and. And attack narratives always seem to parallel the timeline of someone going against the industry or someone speaking out about what's going on behind the scenes, or someone being threatening to the powers that be. And Michael Jackson checked all of those boxes, from his investments in his own music and in Sony at large, to his speech and speaking out to his power as a pop star. And so it. It's no coincidence that the timing is. Is a direct one to one match of as Michael Jackson started to speak out and take, you know, take kind of moves towards his own power and against the industry. And all of a sudden this narrative explodes out of nowhere, largely based on accusations of, let's just say, actors that were at a point in their career where they had everything to gain by working with the industry and that subsequently gained from the industry, just coincidentally, right as they started making all these accusations that everyone else denied, and all the other children like Macaulay Culkin, all the people that didn't need anything from the industry, that had already had their fame or. Or I guess, had souls, like the two clips you just played, all of them flatly denied anything of the sort, and no evidence was ever able to be obtained. But that didn't stop the media from just running the narrative.

Clayton (14:25)

Now, I think one of the things that I learned from your video two years ago that I did not know, and I think that this is a linchpin on Cui Bono who benefits from his death, is that his revised will was notarized in Los Angeles on a day that his family could prove that he was not in Los Angeles, he was in New York. And his estate was then willed over to a person he had already fired and accused of stealing from him. And then all of a sudden, why did this stand? And can you explain who benefited from his death? Which is why we're thinking it was so mysterious. And then we'll back up into the accusations as well, and the various. I want to touch on Oprah. I want to. I want to go there. I want to go on all of it. So let's just start with, like, they did steal from him.

Ian Carroll (15:15)

Yeah. So it's no secret that Michael Jackson started speaking out about the Jewish producers in the industry and sort of a, like a cabal or, or like mafia within the industry that was exploiting people and robbing him. And he specifically talked a lot about John Wonka. And that's the man that he fired that and accused of stealing from him, then mysteriously popped up in a revised will right before he died. And that whole story you just said totally checks out. The family called them out on it and later the story sort of was revised to say, oh no, it was a mistake. We just like it was misremembered where the will was signed, which is, you know, pretty transparent. But Cui Bono is always a follow the money. It's always follow the paper trail, whether it's assets, whether it's actually cash or whether it's power and influence. And Michael Jackson had all three. And so in, in some ways his, his death, which I more and more suspect was a murder, not a death every day. It not only is about what he was saying and what he was speaking out about, which was damaging, but it was also about the actual assets and power that he was accumulating on paper. And when you follow that trail in Michael Jackson's case, Kibono was John Branca and his associates Sony, the record industry at large. And when you follow that trail in Diddy or in other, you know, music industry scandals, it, it tends to be a similar story. And when you follow that in Epstein, when you follow that in Hollywood in general, it always kind of traces back to the, the managers and controllers of the various industries, which tends to trace back to the money, the big money and, and ultimately to bankers. Yeah, bankers and people that pull the strings.

Aaron Carter (archive clip) (17:17)

Right.

Ian Carroll (17:17)

Can I tell you a story for sure?

Clayton (17:19)

I want to tell my Sony story.

Natalie (17:20)

Your Sony story.

Clayton (17:21)

Because. Okay, so in 2011 I left CBS and I was an independent journalist and I was hired by Sony to do what's called a media tour. Michael Jackson had just died within the last year or two and they wanted to re release his catalog because what I didn't understand until your story is that they, he still had the rights funneling to certain places. They now had full control and they needed to re release that music so that they were getting all royalties from his estate. And so they hired me as an independent journalist to do what's called a media tour. So I sat in a dark room and I would just go local station to local station across the, across the country and talk about this re released Michael Jackson collection. Why they needed to do it, I didn't understand. I was paid, you know, for the day, just a day's work of being a Journalist and talking about how great it is that they have this new Michael Jackson collection.

Aaron Carter (archive clip) (18:19)

And.

Clayton (18:19)

And now I realize that I was paid by these people who needed to relaunch his music for their own benefit. Strangely enough, when I was doing this, I was in a dark room. There was no one in there. There was, you know, behind the room was a control room, but I was alone. And as I was doing this, equipment started falling off the shelf where no one. And I was strapped in to my. It was so weird. And I was like, what is this? And now look, I'm getting goosebumps. Goosebumps. It feels like I was. I didn't know. Right. I wouldn't take that job now. But it's an interesting story for. Anyway, I'm, I.

Ian Carroll (18:56)

It's very instructional about how the industry works. Yes. Yeah. Where the industry is full of good people. And I mean, I'm saying like the industry. I mean, all industries. All of these industries that are mechanisms of control. They're largely staffed by regular people, good people. Most journalists are genuinely good people trying to do their job. But it's, it's so easy when, when the information flow is controlled, when the narrative is skewed, when the command structure is sort of segmented in a way where you're just clocking into work to do your little piece. And it's like, yeah, you would think you're supporting Michael Jackson by talking about like, you know, his memory and his legacy. But then, you know, subtly behind the scenes, the story can come out and actually makes me think about Taylor Swift, who sort of used a similar strategy in her split with Big Machine and Scooter Braun and all of that. You know, everyone can have their own opinions about that, but a similar strategy to re release music to sort of alter and control royalties and rights. I almost wonder how much she. How much she knows about the Michael Jackson story and what she learned from history in that regard.

Clayton (20:02)

I'm sick about it now, you know, looking back. But I didn't know.

Natalie (20:07)

Let's talk about Epstein. And what do we now know from these documents? And what do we know from the breadcrumbs that had been laid over the years? We can start to unpack this. I mean, it's pretty damning to hear from like Macaulay Culkin about being protected of going to Epstein Island. I mean, to see these connections of these children. I mean, he's just one example, and maybe there's hundreds of examples of this where Michael Jackson definitely knew what was going on. He wasn't very social. He kept to himself in a lot of ways, but he was very aware, being plugged in about what was happening to these children. And people like Corey Feldman were pretty outspoken about it. So maybe we can just start to pull the threads on Epstein and what Michael Jackson knew about him.

Ian Carroll (20:47)

Absolutely. Inherently, this conversation is largely speculative because there's not a lot, like, there's not a lot of physical, hard evidence of these things. There's, you know, witness testimony, for example, like the two clips we saw earlier. But a lot of this, which is very important to do, I think, in the modern journal space, is sort of contextualizing what we do know for sure. And then putting yourself in these various people's shoes and thinking what logically follows from this setup with this, these, these players and this world that we live in. Because that will show us where to look, that will show us what to investigate, that'll show us where the next clues might be. And it's, it's no secret that Hollywood is a world of gossip. Hollywood is a, of if you know, you know, and who you know is how you, you know, how you get where you're going. And so you have to think about if there's this whole world that has an entire industry built around children, child actors, pageants, all, all these things that are involving children in largely compromised situations already in terms of their legal rights, in terms of their guardianships, in terms of their custody. And if, and we know now very well that there's a lot of trafficking happening, there's a lot of abuse happening, there's multiple different studios that were doing, let's just say, questionable things. Nickelodeon comes to mind, then that means that in that industry there's a lot of children that have a lot of messed up stories. But if you know anything about working with children, especially children with trauma or abuse, you know that they are often very scared or reticent to share said stories. They're often, they don't have the context to know who they can trust and who they can't. And if most of the men or adults in general that they know are either abusers or seem to be a part of an abusive structure, you have to imagine that a lot of them would be very guarded about those stories. And even in many cases, it seems like their parents tend to be at least in some way complicit with these sorts of things. And so my mind immediately goes to, well, who would they share with? And it doesn't seem like a far fetched idea to say that they would share with the one adult that seems truly loving and caring, and that, like, creates a safe space for them. And Michael sits in this really unique position in the industry where he was both a child star that came up in the industry and had a whole lifelong career in the industry and was so famous that he had access to everybody to everywhere, from royalty all the way down. And he also made a point of, you know, intentionally socializing with his fans and intentionally trying to, like, kind of retain that base humanity. And then he also develops this interest in protecting children and in creating Neverland Ranch, which got smeared obviously, as being like an abusive thing. But. But when you actually rewind the narrative and think critically about the facts that have come out and you actually take him a little more at his word, it starts to paint a picture of a man that would have been actually the exact kind of person that these children would have confided in. The exact kind of person that these children would have seen an ally in and that could have understood what they were going through, because he went through it too. And so it actually becomes no mystery in my mind that Michael Jackson would be the exact kind of person that would hear all these rumors and that would be able to put the story together in the background before and more than just about anyone else. So it's a story that has very little physical documentation and unfortunately, Michael is gone. But all of the associated, like, pieces of evidence to suggest that are right there.

Natalie (24:40)

Yeah, right, yeah. Can I just follow up with this? Because of talking about the physical evidence or the documented evidence, maybe there is. And among the 3 million documents we don't have or the black holes that we don't have, and you hear, of course, from what we played at the very beginning about FBI agents specifically being sent in order to, and perhaps try to get these, you know, interviews with witnesses and putting all of this documentation together, trying to build a case against him, maybe it does exist on. At least on the FBI side and we haven't seen it yet. What do you make of that FBI move to really try to pigeonhole him over that 10 years specifically? There's got to be a voluminous amount somewhere.

Ian Carroll (25:26)

Well, where my brain a. I think you're absolutely right. And I think it is no coincidence that we. We're told there was a lot more files than we have now been provided with and told. That's all of them. But my mind immediately goes back to the founding of the FBI and J. Edgar Hoover and his blackmail, specifically the blackmail that the mob had on J. Edgar Hoover. Compromising photos of him at the Very least with his assistant Clyde Tolson, and very likely voluminous. More based upon what we know about the Blue suite parties that were being used to collect blackmail at that time. Cross dressing, gay orgies, etc. With lots of powerful people. And J. Edgar Hoover was right at the center and heart of that. And J. Edgar Hoover served as the director of the FBI for 49 years, both when it was the Bureau of Intelligence and then when it was rebranded as the Federal Bureau of Intelligence.

Clayton (26:19)

Right.

Ian Carroll (26:20)

And so that blackmailing, to me that, that represents rot at the core and, and that's a direct partnership with the mobile. And the mob is very infused into the music industry in many ways. The mob founded the music industry and has been using it for money laundering for untold decades. And so it's really just like those are two parties that are directly beside each other in many ways. And I cannot help but wonder what types of influences or communications incited those FBI investigations and what the real. Like it seems hard to imagine that they weren't investigations that were explicitly asked for and intended to, to accumulate evidence on behalf of Michael Jackson's enemies.

Natalie (27:03)

Essentially entrapment in a lot of ways.

Ian Carroll (27:05)

Yeah.

Aaron Carter (archive clip) (27:05)

Right.

Clayton (27:06)

And I think of the, the people that we know that surrounded him, he had to have. It would have been very useful for them to entrap him in something like this. Whether he was. Had a proclivity of for this or not, it's clear that they pushed this on a lot of people for useful blackmail or leverage or what have you. So, you know, he. Oprah has said many times that she was good friends with Michael Jackson and she impugned him in interviews and then said nothing about John of God, who is allegedly, you know, a sexual abuser. She was totally fine with that. It does seem to me now there was a story about his sister Latoya indicating that he was an abuser of children and then later backing that up and saying that she was under duress. Didn't she say it in Israel? She gave a press conference in Israel. I believe I'm gonna have to look into that. Yeah, I don't know where it was. And then later retracted it. Let me look into that while you respond to that. But this idea that he, he had to have a peripheral vision of this abuse because so many people that were close to him have very suspicious connections.

Ian Carroll (28:19)

Yeah, you bring up such an important point that in these industries it's. It seems it's pretty well evidenced that it's not just that the people that are already sickos get Entrapped in blackmail. It seems very clear. The Diddy story really highlights this, that they purposefully attempt to dangle every possible vice and proclivity in front of you, every possible sin in front of you, just to sort of fish for any potential road into blackmail ability. Because the thing that was the most instructive for me in digging into the Diddy story, the entire. His entire life and the. The evolution of his blackmail scheme, or at least what looks an awful lot like a blackmail scheme, is that there's two types of artists. There's artists that are good and there's artists that suck. And Diddy had a penchant for artists that suck. And I suspect my interpretation of it based upon the evidence, is that the industry realized over time that it's a lot easier to control artists that suck. Because nowadays you can make any artist a star if you control the Billboard top 100. You control the hits, you control the radio stations, you control the concerts and the tours. Like collectively, the. The industry controls basically whose music hits the top. And they have the producers and they have the writers. And so really it's not hard to stand up just some pretty person on the stage and turn them into a star. When you do that with someone that has no talent, you have complete control over them. They are nothing without you. And if you cut them off, they go right back to the streets they came from. And that alone is powerful enough incentive to control most people completely and then probably to entrap them into more and to give them the lifestyle and the drugs and the girls and the parties and all that. Yeah, the problem comes when you have an artist that's actually good, because an artist that's actually good doesn't need any of that. An artist that's actually good can succeed on their own. They could even go independent. They can buy their own music back. And so it's the artists that are actually good that start to have these stories emerge around them of. Of attempted control and leverage. And Michael Jackson is the perfect example. Justin Bieber is another very good example. Taylor Swift is a complicated example because her dad was a banker. And so there's some complicated savvy involved on all sides of that equation. But when you look at the various stars that truly have talent and star power, that's where you start to see really unique storylines. And when you look at the Diddy blackmail kind of networks, you see a whole bunch of talentless nobodies, so to speak, that were made stars because they're actually much easier for the music industry to Sort of milk for all their worth and control down to like, every fiber of their existence. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Clayton (31:20)

And I did go back. So the latoya piece is really strange because she did give a press conference in tel Aviv in 1993.

Natalie (31:28)

Shocker.

Clayton (31:29)

Yeah. Saying, yes, my brother does have these proclivities. He is a pedophile. She later retracted it and said, I was under duress. I had an abusive marriage. Her husband was Jack Gordon, who is a music. Was Jack Gordon, who was a music industry insider, major music producer. And she has said, why would she do that under duress?

Natalie (31:51)

What does duress actually mean?

Clayton (31:53)

Yeah, why there? Why couldn't she give that here? So that's an interesting piece. And I don't know exactly why she did that in Israel, but you're right, you know, it makes sense to assign these people handlers. Right. And so that you control them. And Michael Jackson seem to be incorruptible in that way. At least that's our assertion.

Ian Carroll (32:18)

The conversation about handlers is so important and so relevant. It's very complicated and it feels. Feels very like sp. It feels very like Hollywood James Bondi. It feels almost unbelievable. It's hard to. It's hard to unpack it and accept it if you're just a regular person trying to go about your life. But more and more and more, we get really hard, like, concrete evidence of it happening again and again and again in the music industry, in Hollywood, in politics, all, all, all around. And the. One of the most famous and initially and like earliest examples that was extremely concrete, at least in my lifetime, was around Kanye west and his personal trainer, Harley Pasternak, who, Kanye posted a text message that he received that is now infamous about how Harley Pasternak was threatening to send him back to La La Land and to drug him up and to make. Make sure he never saw his kids again or unless he started playing ball and not being, you know, anti Semitic and all these things that. The publication of that text message was so important for the disclosure of this conversation. But you bring up another point in the security teams and handlers and security teams, because when you look at Michael Jackson, there's this thread of his security team. His head of security was a man named Bill that was like a father figure to him that was with him for his entire life. And. And there's all sorts of photos of Michael with Bill. There's a letter that Michael wrote to Bill thanking him when Bill finally had to retire deep into his 70s. Just being like, you were the father. I Never had. I love you deeply. Thank you so much for the crazy ride. I don't know what I would have become without you. The moment that this man Bill retires because he's getting really old, Michael Jackson starts cycling through different security teams and it's only like a year and a half later that he winds up with Fahim Muhammad as his head of security and then mysteriously dies. And Fahim Muhammad is second on the scene to that, that death, that tragic death, and then immediately goes and gets hired as Diddy's head of security. And this man is just a couple years out of college with a business and marketing or real estate degree. I forget the specifics. Nothing related to security. He was like a 21 or 22 year old kid. It's a little unclear exactly how old he was, but. But somehow he becomes the head of security for the King of Pop and then immediately becomes the head of security for Diddy, who we find out is running a giant like trafficking ring. And so that's like, oh, well that, that is really sketchy. And then, I mean, my brain could go a million directions. But the last point I'll connect is Charlie Kirk. And right now a lot of people have questions about Charlie Kirk's security team and what exactly was going on with them. And more and more, I'll just say, let's just say that people in our industry, in the journalism industry that are very connected and in the know more and more are, are kind of talking and whispering about that. Security teams are one of the most common ways that you get handled. They're one of the most common ways that you get surrounded by, let's just say malign forces because they inherently are people that are trained in violence, that need to have access to your every move, that need to know everything about your schedule, they need to know everything about what you're doing. And often they're people that you don't actually know past the point, like the line where you hired them and usually the before you hired them they were in some sort of military or violent career path where they made who knows what kinds of friends with, who knows what kinds of allegiances with, you know, who knows what kind of morals. So I just wanted to bring up that security team thread and highlight it.

Natalie (35:53)

Well, and it's so dirty. And you brought up like the trafficking ring for Fahim Muhammad, who then finds himself like in Michael Jackson's orbit there right at the end of like, who else can you possibly put in place if you're trying to build a narrative around him? Being like, a pedophile and a child trafficker or whatever else, you put a guy who actually is maybe involved with child trafficking. And of course, you and I know we've talked before about this, but of course he bought land. Faheem Muhammad did, like, right on the border with the border fence right on his backside, where we just bought this land because it was cheap and really. But then the kids are riding my.

Ian Carroll (36:28)

Kids out here to ride ATVs. And it's. It's like, no, they don't.

Clayton (36:32)

In the junk. Yeah, yeah, they're doing.

Ian Carroll (36:34)

They did an interview with the local news station, and the border wall is right there in the back of the. Of the, like, interview. And anyone that knows anything about the border wall around Tijuana is like, no, there's people hopping over that fence all the time. That's not a place where you go and, like, send your kids to camp to just, like, hang out. Obviously, there's something going on there. It's like, you don't just have a dude that's associated with Diddy's trafficking ring randomly buying, you know, hundreds or even thousands of acres of land right on the border wall outside of San Diego.

Natalie (37:06)

And, you know, the Epstein part of this, of course, with the. The flow. And you're a billionaire. You're. You're. You're tapped into these networks of child trafficking, so they're flowing to you at Zorro Ranch. They're being brought out of Turkey at spas. They're being. You know, they're being basically groomed in order to be the great masseuse flying into Zora Ran. So there's this entire network around Epstein that was working on his behalf. And then you have this, like, mysterious. Well, the murder of Michael Jackson. Let's just call it what it is. And in the, like, right around that death, right around his death, he has this mysterious phone call where he basically says, you know, they want to get rid of me. They want to get rid of me. And it seemed we weren't really hearing from Michael at that time, that we knew about this comeback tour was about to happen, that this is it. It was all about to come back. He was obviously rehearsing like crazy. They made a film about it, which we've watched like. Like 80 times in our family.

Clayton (38:03)

I watch it every time I get sick.

Natalie (38:04)

Yeah.

Clayton (38:05)

That's how my family knows I'm not feeling well, is I'm in a dark room watching this. Is it in tears?

Natalie (38:10)

Yeah. And that's ready to do this massive world tour again. But we really hadn't heard about them. We heard about the tour. But then he's really concerned at the end that they are trying to get me. And we have that phone call where he's openly admitting that they're coming for me, and then suddenly he's murdered. Maybe you can pull the thread and pieces there at the end this.

Ian Carroll (38:30)

My brain hasn't gone here before, but the way you just sort of recalled the story immediately made me think about Charlie Kirk. Hate to say it again, but once again, you have a person in this position of power that's got a lot of, let's say, control networks around them that's getting ready for, you know, the tour. That's. That's sort of changing their stances or not being hurt. You know, things are happening. And then we get communications from right before they die saying they're going to get rid of me, they're going to kill me, you know, and. And I think a little bit you have to put yourself in their shoes, where suppose you're a famous person, like a Charlie Kirk or a Michael Jackson or any of these people, and you are starting to wake up to some really dark stuff in your industry, in your world, and you have direct insider knowledge of it. You're suddenly in a very complicated position because it's not as simple always as just coming out and saying it. Because, you know, Michael Jackson, for example, knew intimately how effective the smear machine is at taking your words, twisting them, attacking you, discrediting you, doing whatever to you. But it's also not as you. So, like, how do you come out with the truth? And then also, if you're even going to consist, consider coming out with the truth. And you let anybody in your orbit know what you know and what you plan to do about that. How do you know who to trust? And how do you know they won't kill you for.

Natalie (39:53)

For exposing them, especially having a new security detail.

Ian Carroll (39:57)

Exactly right. And so it's like, where do you turn? How do you proceed with that? Who do you even talk to? Suddenly it's a very paranoid line of thinking. And it. It becomes no mystery why we get these weird sort of cryptic communications or secret communications, or in Charlie's case, very direct communications that were just, you know, in private text messages right before they wind up getting killed. Because you'd have to imagine there would be signs there. You'd have to imagine that there would be, you know, weird conversations, weird subtle things you might pick up on. And the thing about human trafficking and child trafficking is you can't help but look at like, if you're trying to expose that and you're an insider, that's. That knows about it. You, you inherently know the, the deepest level of evil. These people are capable of doing the most evil deeds in the world, the most evil deeds imaginable to the most innocent people on the planet. And so they are inherently the most capable of violence of any criminal organization on the planet. And so if you're gonna expose drug cartels, we all know that drug cartels are very capable of violence, but like human traffickers inherently even more so. And so it becomes a really tied up thought process when you put yourself in the shoes of someone like Michael Jackson and you try to think how would you even speak about that? How would you even come out with that? And then you start to, I mean, my Brian immediately wanders to sort of the, like urban legend or the conspiracy theories. There's some evidence to back it up that various other strange deaths in the music industry, like Chester Bennington, Chris Cornell, Anthony Bourdain. There's a lot of rumors about a documentary exposing child trafficking that was being worked on right before a lot of these men died strange deaths. And it's. I haven't ever really seen convincing evidence to sort of put that story into concrete or to bed. But. But it starts to be the same thought process of how do you actually expose this? You need evidence, you need corroboration, you need documentation. But the problem is in collecting all that, you expose yourself massively. And I think the Epstein files, if they show us anything, it's that this is not an isolated, small criminal faction. This is actually the organizational structure of our world. This is the primary organizational structure behind our government. This is the intelligence agency networks, this is organized crime networks. It's all tied together. And so by, by going after one note of it, you're going after the entire network. And, and there's kind of no limitations on what they can and will do to protect themselves is what it looks like to me. Right.

Clayton (42:37)

Yeah.

Natalie (42:38)

Well, think about Sound of Freedom, right? The massive, you know, we're doing interviews before that movie launched and boy, the smear campaigns began in earnest and it was a concerted effort to try to shut down theaters to go after, to go after the, you know, Jim Caviezel once again, Tim Ballard, to go after all the infrastructure around that movie exposing child trafficking. And they did a good job.

Ian Carroll (43:01)

They really tried to attempt to discredit everyone involved and to try to flip the narrative on them that they're actually traffickers. Themselves that it's actually a psyop to. It's like, what? And then after it had come out and people like us were all talking about its reception, that was actually the first time, because I was pretty new to the media at that point. I was new on TikTok. That was the first time I got a concerted attack from multiple angles. Multiple creators, like multiple different piece is all coming after me. That was kind of wild. And I. I think some of it's probably just partisanship, but it's a lot of these smear campaigns, a lot of these propaganda campaigns to try to like, silence things and shut things down and create infighting. Often they're. They're cleverly designed, kind of cointelpro style to have bad actors in the mix that are starting the allegations, like against Michael Jackson, like he was a pedophile. But then it's designed in a way that it gets other people to jump on the bandwagon and you get other voices, genuine voices, be they independent media or independent, like just journalists or regular humans out there in the world start to believe the story and parrot the story and jump in on that bandwagon narrative. So it becomes very complicated to decipher what's true and what's not in any of these sort of stories that are an attack vector or stories that are a potential exposure of a piece of this bigger narrative.

Natalie (44:24)

Also, the silence is pretty deafening too. People like Laura Loomer, Mark, when Epstein documents come out in this massive story. Total silence, right? So silence is deafening from the mainstream media.

Ian Carroll (44:35)

Ben Shapiro.

Natalie (44:36)

Ben Shapiro. Yeah. Where are you at? You know, where are you at with like the largest story in the world right now with this massive international tentacles, this deep state supra government that's over all of it, all of these tentacles into the government and Mossad and the CIA and MI6. You're totally quiet about it. You're not even talking about it. And Fox News, mainstream media, totally silent on it as well. So there's a lot to be seen in the silence.

Ian Carroll (45:01)

Those influencers are very busy talking about the people they truly care about, which is the citizens of Iran. They're very busy advocating for the rights of the regular citizens of Iran who are being killed by their fascist dictator government, which, you know, I'm being facetious and sarcastic because obviously those commentators care nothing for the citizens of Iran if they can't even bring themselves to care for the children of their own nation, America being raped and abused like this. And so it's like this. You're so Right to point out the silence. And these, these moments where narratives shatter, these moments where document sets like this come out, where these hard truths are being exposed. That's the time to look around and see who's distracting from it, who's obfuscating it, who is misconstruing it intentionally, obviously, and who's silent about it. Because those are the people that are on the wrong team. Whether that's intentionally and knowingly complicit or whether that's just bad interests, misaligned interests, whether they're sponsors, don't want them talking about it. Whatever it is, anyone right now that is trying to pretend like we don't know who Epstein worked for or trying to pretend like he actually worked for the CIA and not Israel or you know, any of these obfuscation narratives or that are just silent about it, that is a pretty sure sign that that person is not a journalist. That at least that I would be trusting ever.

Natalie (46:23)

And running cover and running cover for people.

Ian Carroll (46:25)

There's no story more clear than the giant international sex trafficking cabal that's trafficking children to billionaires on behalf of Israel, trying to control and subvert our, our nation and all sorts of nations all around the world trying to implement things like weird genetic and eugenicist sort of transhumanist agendas, weird techno fascist kind of digital control networks. All, all of these things are, are tied into those Epstein files and have these abusive sort of blackmail structures at the core of how they were functioning. And, and so there's no story right now that's more clear cut good and evil than the Epstein story.

Natalie (47:09)

I think a bigger story is the Nancy Guthrie story.

Ian Carroll (47:12)

I mean, we probably should devote the rest of our interview to it, if you think about it.

Natalie (47:16)

No, let's not.

Clayton (47:18)

I want to ask you about, who do you think in power right now still has an interest to revive the Michael Jackson pedophile story? Because we saw in late 2025 the Department of Justice released Epstein related photos. Michael Jackson was in it with the faces of children blacked out and the Internet was too quick for them. And they said these are his own children. So why would they give us this decoy photo? Who still needs this? And, and what are they diverting us from, do you think?

Ian Carroll (47:53)

It's a good question. And I don't know. I, I don't know how far to run with it because I did find, find actually when I dug into it, I found that photo, if I remember correctly. I'm pretty sure of this. I'm pretty sure I found that photo in one of the sleeves of one of the bind. So there's photos of these binders of photos, yes, that were in Epstein's mansion that the FBI took photos of all the pages, and almost all of them are redacted because of the contents of what was in them. But I believe that that photo appears inside of one of those binders, implying that Epstein had it in one of these collections. And so that's. That, to me, does explain how it wound up sort of in the general collection. But then it got reproduced larger, and not all of those photos did. And it got, let's just say, salaciously redacted in a way that was a little suspicious. And so I don't know whether to run away with that and think that there is maligned interests trying to promote this Michael Jackson narrative as an obfuscation tactic, or to revive the concept that he was a pedophile or anything like that, or whether it's just a funny coincidence. And the Internet naturally runs away with salacious stories and like, you know, those big names and such. Regardless, it's backfired because the Internet is more and more developing its truth sense a little bit, where often we'll get things wrong momentarily, but often the. The collective mind, we're getting experienced enough now that we do a good job of sort of unpacking that the truth of a thing. And then actually narratives that are trying to deceive, often the Streisand effect takes hold, and then the opposite of the deception actually spreads like wildfire. Hence why we're talking now about this and exposing even more to the world that the Michael Jackson pedophile narrative was completely hollow from the start. So I don't know if it was intentional or not. I do think that it's easy to run with various things in the files that seem either hypersalacious or hyper incriminating or hyper suspicious. And in many cases, they are. But I also think that for all of our sake, everyone that's view, that's a viewer, that's. That doesn't have the time to really do all the digs for themselves, should just, you know, take, take, take it slow and pump the brakes on coming to any strong conclusions, because there's a lot of people, you know, pumping out stories for good and, you know, monetary reasons, for all kinds of reasons. And all these stories deserve deep. The deepest investigation and the deepest exposure, which, unfortunately, I think it's up to us because the FBI seems to be asleep at the wheel. But it's gonna take time, right it's.

Clayton (50:45)

Gonna take time to suggest to me because I believe we have concluded that that was a public setting, that Epstein was given access, you know, because he had so much high profile access, and that there probably were a lot of Epstein related characters circling someone like Michael Jackson and others. And I'm sure that, you know, it's always a fishing expedition. Let's see how close we can get to this person. Let's see what we can, you know.

Natalie (51:16)

And take a photo.

Clayton (51:17)

Yeah, let's see what we can do. And so we should not fool ourselves that this is a one off, that people like that are not constantly surrounded by these nefarious fishermen. That's what this suggests to me. And it's speculative, actually.

Ian Carroll (51:34)

You bring up such a good point, Natalie. In this sort of the gray area of trying to decipher who is like, who's a fish being like hunted. Yeah, like as in a target of Epstein that was being hunted. And which targets actually cross the line into being abusers and blackmailed. And to my great chagrin, the most obvious example of this gray area in my mind is Elon Musk. And I don't want the audience to take this as me defending Elon and saying he's a great guy that you should trust, because I don't trust him and I don't think he's a great guy. And I think he has, he's been caught lying about all sorts of ridiculous things like his rank in video games, not to mention everything else that's far more important. So I'm not saying trust Elon Musk, but when you actually look at the correspondences with Elon Musk over time, it's very instructive. If you, if you read them yourself and you kind of trace Epstein's contact with him over time, it shows you this progression of the fishermen approaching the prey. And obviously there's no larger target than Elon Musk. Elon is like target number one, maybe aside from Donald Trump, you know, except that they already were, you know, very acquainted with Donald Trump in the past. So Elon Musk is the richest man in the world. He runs all these companies, he has all these defense contracts, he's huge celebrity. And Elon and he gets. Epstein starts approaching him about visiting his factories and sort of these professional associations. And then there's a section in there where he. Which Elon lied about, to be clear, where they. The emails make it apparent that they did a factory tour at I think SpaceX. Because the next email after they're trying to coordinate it Is thanks for the tour, that was great. And Jeffrey Epstein drops in a little sort of sexual joke into that follow up email that sort of implies, at least by my read of it, that before he had met Elon it was very like professional. I'm just a normal billionaire that's just trying to support, you know, then they spend some time together in person and they probably have some boy talk and Epstein probably has some cute girls with them. And, and so he gets a sense for what is this guy's line around the weird stuff. And suddenly he feels comfortable making a, you know, a little sexual joke. And then later it starts to progress into, oh, you should come to the island. Oh, the ratio is insane. Oh, Tallulah would be uncomfortable at the ratio. Oh, the girls. Like, I wasn't talking about coming to the UN dinner to see Diplomats. My, my party is all young girls. These sorts of emails start to pop up and then Elon Musk starts to cross a line where he is no longer just like, you know, yeah, let's try to do something. Yeah, let's meet up. Yeah, let's do a tour. It crosses into, holy shit, it's Christmas morning and I need to go to the wildest party of my life. I don't want to go to a like chill island vacation. Give me the raging party, you know, I'm, I'm ready to see. Yeah, but that's where then that email comes up. And so you see this progression of the blackmailer getting in and getting a read on the target and then starting to seduce them into like, Elon Musk may or may not have known what was really going on. It's unclear. He should have known something was weird. Hopefully in the future everyone will know that something's weird when a, you know, billionaire comes up with a bunch of 17 year old girls around. But that's where then it's a little gray area. Exactly what lines Elon crossed. Because we don't have evidence that he ever made it to the island, but we do have evidence that he was desperately trying to go to the island. And Lord knows what he would have done if he had gotten there. But Jeffrey Epstein actually appears to have bailed on him, which is a weird, twisted turn of fates here. But, but that whole storyline sort of elucidates that it's kind of a gray area and it's not always clear how like how much someone got hooked and it's not always clear how you should morally feel about them. Because just because they did commit a crime doesn't mean that they were always that monster. Just because they didn't commit a crime doesn't mean that they're not that monster. It's, it's all very complicated.

Natalie (55:37)

I think you're right about that. And you know the reason why I think he. Well, my mind goes to the CIA piece of this whole thing, which is he's one of the largest defense contractors. You know, he's one of the largest, you know, you could argue one of the most important CIA assets, so to speak, from, from, from that perspective, maybe the CIA calls up one of their, their friends, Jeffrey Epstein, and says, hey, back off. We need him for other, for other reasons. I don't know. My mind goes to that immediately.

Ian Carroll (56:07)

But that's a fair point. The only question becomes, would he actually back off or would he take a different angle? Right, right. Because you can only imagine, like if you play that out, Mossad and Epstein's direct mentorship was the Promise Software scandal. Robert Maxwell, deeply involved in the Promise Software scandal, which is one of the earliest, but certainly not the last examples of bugging a software on behalf of Israeli intelligence. And you can only imagine what kinds of things you could get done if you had enough blackmail on Elon Musk to force him to put a bug into some SpaceX software, maybe into some Starlink software. Suddenly you can start to imagine how powerful blackmailing someone like Elon Musk could be. So I think that's a very wise thing to bring up, that there's probably other intelligence games happening in the background, kind of arm wrestling for authority over what people can and cannot do.

Natalie (56:59)

Right. Like we need him to be somewhat clean here. So back off this, because you better.

Ian Carroll (57:04)

Believe that the CIA was not running the operation, but you better believe they knew about it. I'm sure that people in the CIA knew about it.

Natalie (57:11)

I want to go back to something Natalie asked, which is about who benefits from these new narratives that are starting to emerge. And one of them popped up. And to me, the easiest play for like a news organization is just to drag up some old story and go back and like, re interview someone from like years ago. Nothing new, but because it's Epstein related, let's just remind people that Michael Jackson is a pedophile in the New York Post about two weeks ago. And I'll just put this up here on the screen. This was the New York Post story that went kind of viral. And then you have Taz Jackson as the nephew of Michael Jackson, coming to the defense and slamming the New York Post. So here was the New York Post headline Michael Jackson was a pedophile. Like they just put it right there. Michael Jackson was quote, a pedophile who could abuse children almost with impunity. Claims prosecutor who tried the King of Pop.

Clayton (58:05)

Well duh, you were the prosecutor. You already brought that case. We know that you think that. So why this bullshit headline out of the blue?

Natalie (58:15)

And then here's Taj's response. Taz Jackson, are you still using my uncle as a smokescreen? New York Post. We see you. The more the public talks about Epstein, the more you post about Michael Jackson. The public has caught on. I suggest you read the room.

Ian Carroll (58:30)

Right now is the time to. Especially for older people, especially for anyone sort of 40, 50 and up that, that grew up in the era where publications seemed or maybe were trustworthy. The mask is fully off now. And that is a perfect example of publications that are just doing the most bad faith journalism you could ever do on one of the most obvious clean cut good versus evil cases you could ever have. And it takes zero journalistic capability to read these files and understand what Jeffrey Epstein was, what his network was, what was happening. Not to mention to think like they are publishing a report that is literally just the prosecutor stating his opinion despite it having not held up in court and then saying it as though it was a fact and then covering their ass by saying prosecutor says right, well.

Natalie (59:23)

And that's why they hate X. This is why they hate X. Because I want to put this. Here's the, here's the reader's context. Note, Sorry, didn't mean to cut you off there. Prosecute readers added context. Prosecutor Zonen's claims are based or biased due to his role in the trial and remain unproven despite the fact that Jackson faced one of the largest criminal investigations ever and was cleared of any wrongdoing while his accusers were found to have major credibility issues.

Ian Carroll (59:47)

So you know the open source Internet, how does it's completely changed journalism because no longer can you sort of purchase or control just a few corporations and sort of control the dissemination of information. And you bring up such a good point around Michael Jackson that is directly paralleled by the other narrative that's going around lately. Epstein worked for Russia and yes, in fact one of the reporters or one of the experts that they got to write one of these stories that was published that was getting parroted around on all the mainstream media was actually the dude that authored the Steele dossier that was a part of Russiagate that was completely discredited already around Russian accusations. They got that same dude to weigh in as an expert that Epstein worked for Russia.

Clayton (60:36)

Did you know that before he wrote the Steele dossier, he had been involved in a made up story about how Russia was subverting the World cup? That he had a similar assignment.

Natalie (60:47)

The FIFA story.

Clayton (60:47)

The FIFA story. So his whole thing was to prove that Russia had been perverting its power in FIFA. He was not able to do that. And then he was hired by the Clinton campaign. They're like, we like what you do in your blaming Russia. That's your whole gig. Can you do it for us politically? So he did that. That's literally all he does, is come up with a way to blame Russia for.

Ian Carroll (61:11)

And so it says on his LinkedIn.

Clayton (61:13)

Right, official Russia blamer. I'm a framer of Russia. That's what I do. It's Russia, Russia and Apple.

Ian Carroll (61:20)

Just to clarify too, what's in the files? Because I've looked through them extensively. I've developed an app that lets you AI through them. Like I've been in these files very deeply and this was obvious before these files came out too. He, he was targeting Russians. He did have friends in Russia. A lot of his friends in Russia were organized crime figures that were, let's just say they were organized crime. So they were kind of adversarial to the man, to the government there, you know, but also corruptly involved with them. In some ways he was targeting Putin and Putin's associates. But the level of connection to Russia is very similar to his level of connection to Ivory Coast. In fact, it would be probably more accurate to say that he worked for the Ivory coast than that he worked for Russia. Because in the case of the Ivory coast, which is a tiny African nation that no American has ever heard of, he actually helped install a dictator in the Ivory coast that the Ivory coast new dictator, his niece was in Epstein's circle, flying around with him. They provided weapons to this guy. Him and Ehud Barack had a whole intelligence operation targeting the Ivory coast with all sorts of contacts. And so the Russian narrative is basically taking one little tiny branch of Epstein's operation where he had connections into one country and sort of inflating it as though that was his like whole, whole network. When, when you actually look at the files, when you actually read the story, that those branches existed into all sorts of different countries, from Mongolia to Ivory coast, obviously America, all around the world. And so it's this weird obfuscation game where they think that they can just, you know, tell you a story because they're the mainstream news and we're all going to believe it, but that that ship has sailed. And anyone that still is reading the mainstream news for their information, just look at how many of them said Epstein worked for Russia. And then, you know, throw that whole publication in the trash and burn it. Because clearly there's, there's no journalist that could ever report on this story that had like that passed the seventh grade that would ever come to that conclusion at this point, with how much evidence we have. And so that leads me to think that if a journalist is publishing a story that says that either they're still in the sixth grade or they are literally a bad actor that is trying to deceive you.

Clayton (63:25)

Right. I want to just bring this back around one more time to Michael Jackson and then we'll let you go soon. The racial framing of Michael Jackson as he was a self hating black man. You have found medical records showing that he actually did have this skin disease. You can see it on his hand in very early childhood photos.

Natalie (63:45)

He talked about it openly. He said, I wish I was black, I wish I was black.

Clayton (63:49)

But this idea that he was an anti Semite trumps his work as a black American. So not only was he not a racial minority because he hated himself and bleached his skin, but he was an anti Semite, which, and a lot of his work, his music is dedicated to racial injustice, specifically for black people. You know, I was just telling my kids the other day, giving them a lecture about how the Rhythm Nation album is about literacy in black communities. But that narrative is largely buried because they could frame him as an anti Semite and a self hating black person. So can you comment on that?

Ian Carroll (64:30)

Yeah, it's. It's one of those narratives, they recycle over and over and over because they've learned. And by they, I mean sort of the media cabal, the, the controlling networks in Hollywood, music industry land, etc, they've learned that there's almost no better way to control people's image and narrative than to inflame these culture war identity politics narratives. And in particular especially in America, we have built up this sort of legacy of caring about the underdog and the underprivileged and the underserved, especially among like liberal white women, but really among everybody. And so when you can build someone up as being evil towards a minority, being evil towards an underserved population, being evil towards basically anyone except for children, you know, funny thing, that is a great way to smear someone. I mean, I guess in some ways they do try to flip it and, you know, frame him as being a child muster when it's all their buddies. But they, they take all these different tactics, not just the anti Semitism tactic, but they pile other things on as well. And with Michael Jackson, it wasn't just that they were saying that he was a self hating black man. There was also this whole campaign of calling him Wacko Jacko and, and calling him like psycho and crazy. And the tragic irony is that Wacko Jacko, they framed him as like, that was his, that was his nickname and it was, you know, parroted all over all the tabloids, despite him repeatedly saying, don't call me that. That's, that's. I hate that. That was actually the name of a monkey from an old cartoon that was like clearly like a racist black reference. So it's like there's just racism in every direction and they like try to strip him of his race while being racist towards him, while accusing him of being racist towards them themselves. And so it just becomes this pile of, of slop that is all completely irrelevant to the factual like or in factuality of the claims that he was abusing children. And so in my mind, it just becomes a bunch of mud that gets piled on top of the story. And it's not dissimilar right now to when I'm, you know, talking about the Epstein documents and talking about Ehud Barack and Leslie Wexner and all these names associated, and then someone jumps in and just says, you're being anti Semitic. It's like, well, A, I'm not and B, that has nothing to do with the argument here. See, you're just obfuscating and calling people people names and trying to get people inflamed around these identity politics layers that are not relevant to the actual information layer we're talking about. Stories are true or not true. It's not that stories are like racist or anti Semitic. They're just, they're just what happened right.

Natalie (67:12)

Before we let you go, Ian. I mean, you've been deep diving these documents, as you mentioned, built an app to like go through all of them. And, and, and where's the biggest blind spot do you think, right now for people? What, what has you most interested?

Ian Carroll (67:24)

I think the biggest blind spot for the, for the general public is sort of the deeper layers of the intelligence operation. Because the, and I'll, I'll just briefly explain what I mean by that because obviously the abuse of the kids and all the celebrity and wealthy billionaire names, that's taking the highest, the highest step on the ladder of what people are paying attention to. Because obviously it's salacious. And then there's the next step down that he actually worked for Israel and it was an Israeli blackmail operation. For a long time that was kind of disputed and sort of covered up, I guess. But now that is largely being talked about as well. Thankfully, very important to talk about that. But then when you step beneath that layer into what were all the things that this intelligence network were doing on behalf of Israel, other than just the blackmail of celebrities, that's the layer that is deeply significant to our modern world that is hard to understand. It's extremely complex, and it's not getting the airtime it deserves, because Jeffrey Epstein was funding and coordinating with all of these scientists, particularly in genetics and transhumanist types of fields, and particularly in technology and technocracy and cryptocurrency types of fields. And when you look around at the world today, at the Palantirs, for example, of this world, at the digital surveillance state architecture that's getting built in all around us to control us, a huge portion of that industry was either direct friends with, directly connected to or directly funded by Epstein and his network, or they are branched out from that. And the same is true for a lot of sketchy, kind of transhumanist, genetic and other scientific technologies. There's also a lot of communications about COVID 19 and associated viral stuff. And. And so that is this subtler layer of not so salacious topics, but topics that deeply connect to our future and that we need to expose as quickly as possible because Palantir is getting integrated into everything in our American government right now. And Peter Thiel is all over these files. His. He was deeply connected. Epstein was funding more than one of his ventures. And. And it's not just Peter Thiel. There's all sorts of other people in the industry associated. So that's one of the most pressing and important, important threads to pull on. I think, for everybody to understand that is just inherently hard to understand and it's not as salacious. So. So it's important for journalists to expose it, stay loud about it, and try to make it understandable to the average person.

Natalie (69:55)

Yeah, I think you're right about that. The focus is on these names, but they're slowly moving us to a fully integrated AI biometric future where everything is run, you know, through these. These cutouts, these CIA cutouts like Palantir and so forth, and the AI fusion with brain technology and. Oh, yeah, so you're right about that. That's a huge blind spot for people right now. And everything Will be tracked. And then when 6G runs out, rolls out.

Ian Carroll (70:22)

Yeah, yeah, we'll be doing.

Natalie (70:25)

Yeah, they'll have our full movements down pat. And President Trump was talking about it openly a few weeks ago. That. That's. They'll be able to know everything right through the wall. Walls. How we move and move.

Clayton (70:35)

All right.

Ian Carroll (70:36)

It's a crazy world.

Natalie (70:38)

Yeah.

Clayton (70:39)

So let's think and talk while we still can. Absolutely.

Natalie (70:43)

Ian Carroll is the host of the Ian Carroll Show. Where. Where can people find the show? How often are you live and all of that?

Ian Carroll (70:49)

Yeah, I. You can find me on YouTube, Twitch, and Kick. I'm live sporadically. I don't hold a schedule. I'm completely independent, have no sponsors or support or any, like, anything like that. So I can do what I want. And I tend to just kind of go live off and on. Kick is the best place to follow all those live streams, but YouTube as well. And you can find me at Ian Carroll show on YouTube or cancel Ian Carroll on the other platforms. And if you want to keep up with everything that I'm doing, I've got a website canceling carol.com. so thanks for having me on, guys.

Clayton (71:18)

I really appreciate it. It's great to talk to you.

Natalie (71:20)

Our pleasure, man. Great to see you again. Thanks, Ian.

Ian Carroll (71:22)

Absolutely.

Natalie (71:23)

Keep up the great work. So our thanks to Ian. Great interview and incredible deep dive here. I hope people, like, give thought when they start to see these, like, news publications that, like, pop up and are pushing this narrative all over again. It's so weird. The New York Post, like.

Clayton (71:36)

And you think about living through the 90s. They had full impunity to do this to people, and people didn't question. Go ahead, Philip.

Philip (71:43)

Oh, I didn't want to interrupt the interview, but, like, I took. I had serious beef with that article because the headline. When Clayton brought that up, it hit me. It's like the prosecutor said. It's like the prosecutor knows that he didn't get convicted. So how can a prosecutor prosecute something? Fail to prosecute the person, and then come out and say they're guilty? That just seems like they should be disbarred for that.

Clayton (72:07)

Right. And the headline should be says, prosecutor who failed to secure conviction.

Natalie (72:13)

But.

Rebbl Advertiser (72:13)

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Natalie (72:13)

First.

Clayton (72:13)

Why is that your source?

Natalie (72:15)

But in the first sentence, it says, yeah, he says he's Michael Jackson is a pedophile who's guilty or he's a guilty. Like, that's the. That's the main headline.

Philip (72:23)

I mean, like, because. Yeah, because if a prosecutor, like, like, charges somebody with murder and then they're found not guilty. That prosecutor can't come out then to the press and be like, that person is a murderer. Like, that's at least defamatory, I suppose.

Clayton (72:36)

But a lot of times they'll say, we're so sad. We didn't, you know, convince the jury. We still believe. I guess you can stay say that like, we lost the case. You know, we didn't succeed here. But we still think this. But he has been acquitted in a court of law. At the very least, the press should know that and not. I mean, yes, we know that prosecutor thought that because he brought the case. Dummies.

Natalie (73:01)

But what's the motivation from the New York Post. Right. That you don't just. Who in the newsroom who at the highest levels, Rupert Murdoch or otherwise, who's, by the way, in the Epstein files, like, made a phone call to his newsroom and is like, let's dig up something on Michael Jackson and let's run a story. There's nothing new in the story. The only thing that you're doing is literally going back and getting an old prosecutor. Prosecutor.

Clayton (73:25)

Right. To write an article in the environment of. We have all of these allegations of new pedophiles. We don't want to cover them. Let's get an old. Let's get an old one. Let's bring out Michael Jackson, because people then maybe won't bite on the allegations against Larry Summers, Alan Dershowitz, you know, Peter Attia, all of these people who were salaciously texting and emailing Epstein. Like, we don't really want to look there. So let's go back and dig up some old stuff.

Natalie (73:53)

Yeah. What about an interview, Unconscionable or something with Howard Lutnick. Right. I mean, here is a guy who refused. He said, I broke off all ties in 2005, and now turns out that was a total lie. What about stories about that? No, no, no. Let's go back and dig up Michael Jackson's stories.

Clayton (74:07)

Right. Yeah. Anyway, let us know what you think of that. That was a very intense interview, but I enjoyed it. I was glad to do it.

Ian Carroll (74:15)

Yeah.

Clayton (74:15)

I admit my bias as a lifelong lover of Michael Jackson, especially, like I said, I was raised to joke witness. And so we used to have to go to district conventions and national conventions. And I would always be on the lookout for Michael Jackson. I'd be like, mommy, will he be here from the age of 4 or 5 on? So I have a special connection to him.

Natalie (74:35)

Well, as children of the 80s, we all in our neighborhood would like Be like, oh, yeah, I got Michael Jackson's phone number. You know, it was like a 1, 800 number. You know, it's like, I got his phone number. All friends will like, talk about, like, did you get Michael Jackson's phone number? You got his phone number?

Philip (74:48)

I, I had a friend that had the red zipper jacket. Let me just tell you that that was, that was the kid, right?

Clayton (74:55)

And my cousins wore penny loafers around and.

Natalie (74:58)

Oh, yeah, yeah, we were watching.

Clayton (75:00)

My cousin John had that jacket.

Natalie (75:02)

We were watching Beverly Hills Cop the other night for the first time. I hadn't seen it in years. And there's a scene where, you know, he shows up in Los Angeles or he's in Beverly Hills, Eddie Murphy, and then he's walking down the street and two guys walk by wearing the red leather zip up jackets looking just like Michael Jackson, right? And he's like, man, I'm in la. I'm in la.

Clayton (75:20)

Yep. Anyway, all right, those were the days. Okay, well, before we go, we want to tell you about two more of our show sponsors. We're so grateful that they sponsor independent journalists like this first is Tempo Meals. This is something that Clayton and I have started to order on a regular basis because, you know, we eat and cook full meals with our kids for breakfast and dinner, but at lunch when they're at school, he and I resort to just like snacking on beef jerky because we don't want to cook a full meal for ourselves. That's why we've been so happy to find Tempo Meals, because we can eat a proper lunch now. This is what we use in our house in between breaks when we're researching for the show. They have really delicious offerings. We wanted meat forward meals and that was super easy to find. Yes. Like that one, Taco bowls.

Natalie (76:08)

That's the one I had. That was the, I think it was like the Asian pulled pork or something.

Clayton (76:12)

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Natalie (77:01)

And I also want to tell you about our friends over at Masa Chips, because this is something we actually use in our house. Like, we buy these ourselves. Okay. We use our own money. They don't just send them to us for free. We actually order these. And every Taco Tuesday, we've got Masa chips on the table because they're delicious. They only have three ingredients. That's right. Just corn, just salt, and just. And just beef tallow. That's it. That's it. No mystery chemicals. Just real food. No seed oils. Like you'll get in all of those other processed chips out there. These chips don't only avoid all the bad stuff. They taste incredible. I'm a big fan of the white ones, which are very similar to like what you would get at a Mexican restaurant. You know, they bring them to the table and so I, we actually, I like all of them. They're really, really good. But my favorite are the white ones. Those are the traditional tortilla chips that you see there on the screen. We had those the other night for taco Tuesday night as well. Snacking on Masa Chips is nothing like eating regular chips. You feel satisfied, light and energetic with no crash, no bloat, no gross sluggish feeling afterward because they're made with beef tallow, so they're delicious. Give them a try today. Go to masachips.com redacted news and use the code redacted news for 25% off your first order. Or simply click the link link in the video description or you can scan that QR code right there on your screen to get 25 off your first order. I should mention my son loves the churro ones. Did you ever go to, like, chichi growing up? Well, I guess you, you know, well.

Clayton (78:26)

They remind me of the Taco Bell cinnamon crispers that we used to get. They're a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of nostalgia in that bag. And they're much better for you.

Natalie (78:33)

So the churro ones are like a fun treat, you know, fun dessert kind of chip. And yeah, they taste like the cinnamon. Cinnamon or. Yeah, like the crispers or like now they're twists.

Clayton (78:42)

But when I was young, they were not.

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Natalie (78:45)

So our son loves those. He loves the churro ones as well. So it's a fun treat. Anyway, that's Masa chips. So thanks to your support here of the show. Thanks to all of our sponsors who are supportive of independent journalism. They never tell us what to say. We do what we want to do here on our show and they support our our wild show. Like I saw a comment from one of our viewers here. It said, love listening to your podcasts. Susan, Susan Genderman says, I love listening to your podcasts. Sometimes they're hard. I've got granddaughters, I have daughters and I have grandsons and I fear for what the future is bringing. But she listens to the show and she knows it's hard. So yeah, our show is not easy. It makes people uncomfortable. So we thank you for your support of the show.

Clayton (79:23)

But you're here. You're listening to the hard stuff. We're researching the hard stuff. We're going to stick with it together while we still can, while AI will allow it. Thank you so much for being here this Wednesday. We will see you tomorrow on Thursday same time, 4pm Eastern live. Thank you again.

Natalie (79:37)

Oh, I should mention tomorrow, can I mention Whitney Webb will be joining us for the full show tomorrow, live for the whole show. So get your questions in. Now. Whitney Webb is going to be joining us for a deep dive tomorrow. So have a great night everyone. We'll see you back here tomorrow, 4pm Eastern Time.

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