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- [00:00]
Clayton Morris
Tired of overpaying with DirecTV, Dish offers a reliable low price every month without surprises. Get the TV you love and start watching live sports news and the latest movies, plus your favorite streaming apps all in one place. Switch to Dish today and lock in the lowest price in satellite TV starting at $89.99 a month with our two year price guarantee. Call 888 add dish or visit dish.com today. What are they hiding from you? What is the mainstream narrative they'd like you to believe? Welcome to Redacted with Natalie and Clayton Morris. On this show we help to break down the propaganda to bring you the truth behind the news. Live from the Rocky Mountains, get started. Welcome everybody on this Tuesday to Redacted Grover Cam. People in the comments saying, oh yeah, Grover Cam is back today. It is back.
- [01:07]
Natalie
Yeah, when he decides it's back.
- [01:09]
Clayton Morris
Yeah, when he decides, when he just, he graces us with his presence.
- [01:12]
Natalie
We have to talk to his agent because he doesn't come every day.
- [01:14]
Clayton Morris
Yeah, sometimes he wants to be here, sometimes he doesn't.
- [01:16]
Natalie
There's work to be done, buddy.
- [01:18]
Clayton Morris
Go to sleep. Hang out with us because we got a lot to talk about today. We are gonna talk about these Trump contracts and why the president associated family members are winning some massive multimillion dol contracts. Isn't this the same thing that MAGA or conservatives decried about the Biden administration and Hunter Biden and the massive money laundering operation that was being funneled through Ukraine? Like we gotta kick these bums out of office cuz they're all corrupt. Well now why don't you 10x that the amount of money that's now being funneled through these contracts, these no bid contracts. We're gonna unpack that today on the show.
- [01:53]
Natalie
We're also gonna talk about the Russian attacks on Ukraine which were warned about, promised. We're gonna talk to Colonel Doug McGregor about it because he said it was gonna happen. It happened. Also, do we believe this fallout between President Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu? You know, if you really buy it, as a sign of shifting US policy, I got a bridge to sell ya. So that's my take on it, but we're gonna break it down. Also, Netflix is targeting Michael Jackson again. We're gonna talk to a journalist who covered the 2005 trial. People are boycotting Netflix because of it. What do we expect? Yeah, we're going to talk about it.
- [02:29]
Clayton Morris
My favorite is the sequin glove with the big middle finger. People canceling their Netflix subscriptions because of this. This like hit job on Michael Jackson. Like, you don't mess with Michael. You don't mess with fans of Michael.
- [02:41]
Natalie
And yeah, well, I think this is a narrative. It's not about celebrity gossip. Clearly, we don't do that on redacted. It's about why target somebody, why the media malpractice? What is it they're trying to sell us? And you know, would this happen in the year 2026? So I'm very curious. So, yeah, stay with us. Talk about mj.
- [03:02]
Clayton Morris
Get your comments in here now. Super chats and rumble rants and all of that good stuff on this Tuesday. So glad to have you all here. We're going to talk about the Trump contracts here in a second and then Russia, Ukraine moments after that.
- [03:12]
Natalie
But first, first we want to tell you about our friends at Angel Studio, because Memorial Day is supposed to mean something. It's about honoring sacrifice, remembering the people who gave everything so that our country could exist and our families could leave live free. And honestly, that's part of why we appreciate what Angel Studios is doing right now. They're one of the platforms putting out stories rooted in courage, faith, resilience and American values. Instead of tearing those things down, there are some great films on there that you might enjoy. Something to stand for with Mike Rowe, Indivisible Green and Gold, Homestead, the Last Rodeo. These are stories about sacrifice, perseverance, family and what's actually worth fighting for. And they are still running their Memorial Day sale where you can get a big discount with your membership. This is the first perfect time to pick a plan and join. And if you go premium, you get two free tickets to every theatrical release, including Young Washington Coming on July 3rd for America's 250th birthday. So if you want entertainment that's actually reflecting what the weekend is about, what the holiday is about, then go to angel.com redacted and join today one more time. That's angel.com/redacted.
- [04:23]
Clayton Morris
And someone in our chat was like, I love you guys. Why did you preempt your show with an old episode? No, no, that was a brand new episode. Like if you watched us on our. That was a brand new interview. So. No, that was brand new, not old.
- [04:35]
Natalie
FYI, we are working hard for you.
- [04:37]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
All right.
- [04:38]
Natalie
This is new information.
- [04:39]
Clayton Morris
All right, well, let's work hard on this. Why is a Trump linked company getting $1 billion no bid contract? And how much corruption and enrichment is happening within the Trump family? So this is a wild one out of Bosnia. According to a new Guardian investigation, a Little known company called AAFS Infrastructure and Energy is reportedly on the verge of landing more than a billion dollar in energy contracts in the Balkans, including a major gas pipeline that would move American LNG into Bosnia, reduce the country's dependence on Russian gas. But here's where it gets interesting, because according to the Guardian investigation, this company has no obvious track record of building anything close to this size. Like it's. I don't know, it's like someone getting a job that they've. It's like, it's like Bob Woodward, it's like journalist Bob Woodward. He's suddenly a journalist. He gets put on the Watergate story. Like, where'd that come from? He's never covered a story like this before. But we're gonna put him on the most important story of all time, right? Very convenient. How does this happen? One of the company's US Representatives is Jesse Benal, a Washington lawyer who's represented Trump and Trump Jr. In political cases. Another person is Joe Flynn, the brother of former Trump National Security Adviser Michael Flynn. Both were also involved in efforts, of course, to challenge the 2020 election results. Now the same company is being lined up for one of the most important infrastructure projects in Bosnia, the Southern Interconnection Pipeline, which would connect Bosnia to Croatia's LNG terminal and open the door to American gas. The Guardian reports there was no competitive bidding process. Like, how does that happen? So no other company could have done this, but a company that's never done something like this, but has ties to the Trump administration, gets this no bid contract, okay? Which is something required by law, bidding these contracts out. So look at the big picture here. Bosnia currently relies heavily on Russian gas. The United States wants that replaced with American lng. I get that. That's geopolitics. That's why we blew up the Nord Stream pipeline, right? So that all of that stuff that would flow into, into Germany would now then have to be charged three times as much and shipped from the United States. I get it. That's part of the game here. Totally understand that. But why is a massive project being steered towards a private, obscure, politically connected company with Trump world ties, a company that's never done anything like this before. That's exactly the kind of thing I think that Americans are sick of. That's why MAGA said vote those bums out. Hunter Biden and all of those people funneling millions of dollars through the massive money laundering operation in Ukraine. Well, how is it any different than what the Trump family is doing right now? Because according to cnbc, Field tests are now underway in Ukraine on a humanoid combat robots that are supplied by the American company called Foundation Future Industries, which is linked to Eric Trump. He's been brought on to be a part of their board as an analyst. Okay, here he was on Fox Business bragging about the $24 million Pentagon contract along with the company's CEO the other day on Maria Bartiromo show. Watch this.
- [07:58]
Natalie
And the company's chief strategy advisor, Eric Trump, President Trump's son. Congratulations to you both. Thanks so much for being here.
- [08:07]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
Thanks.
- [08:07]
Dr. Ben Freeman
Thanks for having us, Maria.
- [08:08]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
Yeah.
- [08:09]
Clayton Morris
So you're on this get invited on Fox Business to boast about what this company is actually doing. Go ahead. Congratulations. Your team won the soccer championship that your dad refereed over.
- [08:21]
John Ziegler
You know, congratulations.
- [08:24]
Clayton Morris
$24 billion contract.
- [08:26]
Natalie
Remember when Jimmy Carter put his peanut farm in a blind trust to avoid political conflicts? Yeah, Peanuts.
- [08:34]
Clayton Morris
Remember it well, just like it was yesterday.
- [08:36]
Natalie
Well, you wouldn't because it was 1977,
- [08:37]
Clayton Morris
but still, I was born, I was a few months old.
- [08:40]
Natalie
This is how it's supposed to happen.
- [08:43]
Clayton Morris
So this company, this robotics company, if you, you know, think, okay, so he's now on this company board, whatever he's part of, you know, strategic advisor or whatever, it's a 24, you know, million dollar Pentagon contract that he's getting. He's a part of it. And then you realize that the company plans to produce around a thousand units by the end of the year. Begin field testing with direct partnership of the US Armed Forces in the next 18 months, specifically in Ukraine. So no wonder this war can't end anytime soon. No wonder there's this ramping up effort, the war in Ukraine, because we need to field test Eric Trump's robots. Oh, my God. And people wonder why we're so fed up. We're so fed up. Dr. Ben Freeman is the director of Democratizing Foreign Policy at the Quincy Institute, the author of the book the Trillion Dollar War Machine, How Runaway Military Spending Drives America American Foreign wars and bankrupts us here at home. Dr. Freeman, great to have you back on the show.
- [09:42]
Dr. Ben Freeman
Wonderful to be with you. Thanks for having me.
- [09:44]
Clayton Morris
Your response to these no bid contracts and the size and scope of them when you compare them to like Hunter Biden, you know what, the money laundering operation in Ukraine, that seems like Natalie's peanuts point compared to what we're seeing here.
- [10:00]
Dr. Ben Freeman
Yeah, I think that's true. But I think the first point there, everybody has to recognize corruption is bipartisan. You know, this isn't a Republican or a Democratic thing. This is a U.S. government thing. You know, the U.S. government is increasingly more and more corrupt. What we're seeing, though, with the Trump administration, unfortunately, is that corruption is really going on steroids. And, you know, we're seeing the dollar amounts go up and up and up here. You mentioned the $24 million contract there for the robots. There's another contract with a company called Vulcan Elements that's backed by Donald Trump Jr. That's for $620 million. So, you know, the dollar amounts here are staggering. And I think you hit the nail on the head. The price of all this is not just the money, it's the impact on US national security. You know, if we're just giving money to our cronies, are we really protecting US national security interests? That's what I'd be asking myself if I was one of your viewers.
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Clayton Morris
Great point. Maybe you could, because I didn't even touch on Vulcan Elements here, but maybe you can educate our audience on exactly that story, because that's a whole other can of worms.
- [11:08]
John Ziegler
Right? Right.
- [11:09]
Dr. Ben Freeman
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry to dump it on you, but the backstory with Vulcan here is DOD is starting a new initiative, the Office of Strategic Capital. And it's a good initiative, I think. You know, they're worried about things like critical minerals, the resources that we need for the technology that the war fighter needs is. It's a very good cause for a good program. I think, unfortun, what we're seeing with so many DoD programs lately is that the newer the program, seemingly the more vulnerable it is to this crony capitalism system. And so what the Office of Strategic Capital does, it gives out loans to companies to secure these assets, secure these resources. One of those companies, Vulcan Elements, that is doing this work is backed by 1789 capital. Where you might have guessed it, Donald Trump Jr. Is a partner. So again, even in something that it's literally called the Office of Strategic Capital, that it's not going strategically, it's. It's going to administration cronies.
- [12:10]
Natalie
Now, recently we saw an expanded contract with Palantir, and again, that was no bid. So I'm concerned that this is the way of it now. And how do these no bid contracts work? There's a reason you're supposed to bid these things out in order to avoid any favoritism, but it's happening.
- [12:28]
Dr. Ben Freeman
Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. We, we have bidding for a reason. You know, we want the market to work. You know, we want. You have to compete, you know, give us a low price and, you know, give us higher quality Services, when you have these no bid contracts, it's a detriment to the warfighter. You know, they may not. There's no competition over the qualities of these weapons. No competition then on the delivery timelines. So the warfighter is getting possibly inferior weapons and possibly a lot slower than they otherwise would. If you had serious bidding on these contracts.
- [13:00]
Clayton Morris
All right, let's talk about the robotics piece of this. I mean, what struck me immediately was, well, we can't possibly end the war against Russia, this NATO boondoggle against Russia, because now the Trumps are rolling out these field robots. You know, they've upwards of 2 million, according to our reports, 2 million Ukrainians dead on the battlefield. And now foreign mercenaries, of course, are being used on the battlefield, NATO forces, et cetera. So now you gotta put in these humanoid robots to carry and fight against the Russian machine, so to speak.
- [13:31]
John Ziegler
Right? Yeah, yeah.
- [13:32]
Dr. Ben Freeman
Ukraine has become a defense tech testing ground. And unfortunately, the Ukrainian government itself is, you know, they're not even mincing words about this. They've said this, you know, if you want to test defense technology, you come to Ukraine, you give it to the Ukrainian military. That obviously presents a very, very perverse incentive to keep this war going on. And, you know, what we're seeing with this robotics company and what we're seeing with other drone companies, drone intercepting companies, because, you know, it's going both ways. We're seeing a lot of these firms continue to profit on the chaos there. We're seeing it, too, also with the Iran war as well. You know, another company that's backed by the Trump family, Donald Trump Jr. Is an investor, an advisory board member, on a company called Unusual Machines, which similarly is trying to sell some of its drone technology to Gulf partners in the region. So, again, you have another ongoing conflict which the folks closely connected to this administration are profiting from.
- [14:35]
Natalie
And it goes without saying, but we should mention that Jared Kushner has his ties in the rebuilding of Gaza. We're not exactly sure how that's going to go, but they did call for investors. It was not an open bid. It was an open call for investors.
- [14:51]
Dr. Ben Freeman
Right, right, right, right, exactly. And I think, too, it's.
- [14:55]
John Ziegler
Well, where.
- [14:56]
Dr. Ben Freeman
It's a great point to bring up, because you also have to think about the Trump administration's other ties to other countries in the region, too. You have big Trump family deals in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the uae, and this is of course, not to mention Israel, but you think about just those countries I mentioned there. And those countries are getting enormous connections through through some of those ties, right? You look at Qatar, they're effectively getting, you know, access to, if not an outright military base in the US the uae, they're getting access to our cutting edge Nvidia chips. And Saudi Arabia is getting over $100 billion in offers of US military equipment. You know, when you start to add all this up, you know, this isn't just cronyism for cronyism sake. There's a real cost here in that we're sort of giving away a lot of precious U.S. resources, you know, potentially just on the back of some of these crony deals.
- [15:54]
Clayton Morris
You know, you just recently posted about the distrust of, you know, of Israel, of course, and what's going on there. And then, of course, we have this debate right now over the National Defense Authorization Act. Of course, you have, you know, members of Congress, some of them who've now failed their primaries. Unfortunately, Congressman Massie and others who are saying, wait, we're gonna be merging our defense defense now as part of the National Authorization Defense act with, With. With Israel.
- [16:21]
Natalie
Well, here is the exact language in the defense budget saying it would require the Secretary of Defense to designate an executive agent responsible for synchronizing cooperation between the two militaries, including defense technology, research, development, testing, evaluation, integration, and industrial cooperation. Which is interesting because how much does Israel cooperate with the US Military? They've never once sent soldiers alongside us in any of the war this wars that we fought in the US So they're fine to sort of give military and digital support, informational support, but not really boots on the ground. So why are we doing this?
- [17:03]
John Ziegler
Right?
- [17:04]
Dr. Ben Freeman
I have no answer to that question. I only have more questions. You know, I wrote an article for Responsible Statecraft on this this past Friday, which fortunately, folks like Massie, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Ro Khanna, eventually, there's bipartisan outrage over this now because the rationale doesn't make sense. You know, as you mentioned, you know, Israel hasn't committed boosts on the ground to us. They've also been reluctant to share information with us. Just a few years ago, some folks might remember, the US army wanted to buy some Iron Dome batteries from Israel. Israel refused to share any of the code with it with the U.S. army. So the army said, we can't integrate this. We can't even buy this stuff from you because you're not even willing to share information when we're buying from you. So there's a big question with this deal now about what is the US Actually going to share when we talk about us Israeli, you know, Military integration and military industrial complex integration. This looks a lot like Israel getting access to the US Military industrial complex getting, you know, a foothold, some might say a stranglehold inside the US and it's not clear what the US Is going to get in return because Israel in many ways hasn't been a reliable partner to the US in the past few years.
- [18:20]
Clayton Morris
Yeah, we get great moral ally and friend and yeah, this seems to codify that. Right. Because for years we've sent billions to them anyway. But now it'll be written in there, it'll be specific and it's going to be very, as you know, in Washington, it's going to be very hard to decouple these things. Like once it's coupled, it's very hard to decouple it.
- [18:41]
John Ziegler
Right, right.
- [18:43]
Dr. Ben Freeman
A former colleague of mine used to say, when you sign a deal like this, you're getting pregnant. You know, this is like trying to save an estranged marriage by saying, you know, hey, you know, I know Israel and the US Aren't getting along right now. Let's have a baby together. You know, if that sounds stupid, that is as stupid as this deal would be. You know, at a time when there is unprecedented public distrust about the U. S. Israel relationship, Congress is literally saying, let's have a higher level of military integration with Israel than we've ever had before. That's just foolish. And you know, to decouple that. You're exactly right to decouple that. Once, once this would get implemented, it would take years, if not decades to, to decouple. You're talking about common supply chains, you know, common technology sharing. You know, we'd be relying on them across a whole host, host of weapons systems. It would put the national security state of the US at risk if you were ever to decouple from this. So, you know, at the end of the day, what this really is, this is the ultimate power grab for the Israel lobby in the US and that is also, while I'll tell your viewers, the Israel lobby is up in arms about me being up in arms about this. And so the Israel lobby is doing everything they can to make sure we don't get this stripped out of the ndaa.
- [20:03]
Clayton Morris
Well, good for you for highlighting it, drawing attention to it and trying to get members of Congress to decouple this as much as possible.
- [20:11]
Natalie
So is there in fact an effort for people to call their congressional representatives and have a fit about it? Tell us about that.
- [20:19]
Dr. Ben Freeman
Yes, yes, absolutely. Thanks for asking. I mentioned Thomas Massie, Ro Khanna, the both of them. They're at it again. They're in cahoots on this. Ro Khannah says he's on the Armed Services Committee, and this Thursday, he is going to introduce an amendment to strip this out. So to anybody watching this, if your member of Congress is on the Armed Services Committee, call them, email them. You know, we've seen letters to the editor of local papers. Write all those. Tell your member of Congress, support Ro Khanna, strip out section 224. From that. Massey has jumped in and said, even if Ro Khanna's at one effort fails in the committee, Massie's gonna introduce legislation in the full House. So then you have a second shot at it. So again, in that case, regardless of whether your representative is on the House or in services committee or not, call them, tell them, you know, we're not okay with heightening levels of military cooperation with Israel. Right. Especially right now.
- [21:16]
Clayton Morris
Yeah. Brilliant.
- [21:18]
Natalie
We have phone calls to make, you guys.
- [21:20]
Clayton Morris
We do indeed. Dr. Freeman, great to see you. Thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate your thoughts today.
- [21:26]
Dr. Ben Freeman
Thank you both for having me. Take care.
- [21:28]
Clayton Morris
You bet. Appreciate it. All right, coming up, we're going to talk about this latest attack on from Russia into Ukraine. Overnight, of course, it was happening in the dark of night and massive attack. This is probably the largest attack on the Ukrainian capital since the start of this war. And our next guest predicted all of it. We're going to talk with Colonel Douglas MacGregor on what's next in this move from Russia into Ukraine. But first, I'm sure you've been online, you've been shopping, and you think, thinking, oh, where is this, like, purple button that's popped up next to the payment options? You know, you used to have, like, different credit card options. Now there's this purple pay button, the shop button. Where did this come from? And it's made buy with shop. It's made online shopping so much easier. And once you make that purchase, it's all done through Shopify, and you'll even get tracking information. You get alerts about, hey, you know, your package just shipped. Like, I just ordered some new backyard butchers, one of our show sponsors, and got some new meat sent to the house the other day. And it was all done through Shopify. So I was notified that my. My meat order was on delivery and being sent to me and all carried out through Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. 10% of all E commerce in the United States, from household names like, you know, redacted Our own store runs on Shopify. That's right. Redacted store.com youm can check it out. Or backyard butchers as I I mentioned, you can check them out as well so you can get started with your own design studio Today. Hundreds of ready to use templates. Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand's style. You can be set up in minutes with your own storefront like ours or adapted. Store.com really didn't take us long at all to get up and running. And then we can go in there and tweak the graphics and do different things like that. But they handle everything. They handle everything all right there. Plus they have award winning 24. 7 customer service support to help you out. You can tackle all those important tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics and more. And no need to save like multiple websites or trying to figure out what platform is hosting the tool that you need and all of that stuff. Remember that back in the day when you had like WordPress websites and you had to do all that garbage back in the day? Not anymore. Shopify does it all for you. So see, less carts go abandoned, more sales by going to shopify.com redacted and you can sign up for a 11 month trial. That's right, 1 $1 per month trial period today. Just $1 per month. Give it a shot. Shopify.com redacted shopify.com/redacted. All right, how's Grover doing? Let's see if I get my Grover.
- [23:59]
Natalie
Is he here?
- [24:00]
Clayton Morris
Yeah, he's here. I see my Grover cam button. I have a special button right here, the Grover cam button, but it's being blocked. Just want to make sure it's all.
- [24:06]
Natalie
It's like a dog baby monitor.
- [24:08]
Clayton Morris
And hello to all of our Viva fry folks who've just raided our stream.
- [24:13]
Natalie
Thank you for joining us.
- [24:14]
Clayton Morris
Viva. Great to see you and great to see all the people on rumble and YouTube and to the tens of thousands of you that watch us around the world on X, on twitch rumble on YouTube. Thank you all of you. All right, let me pull up my notes here and all right, overnight, Russia launched one of the most devastating attacks on Ukraine's capital since the start of this war. According to reports, Russia launched close to 800 drones missiles in Ukraine overnight. Here's just a sampling of what people were witnessing. Watch. And here's some other neighborhoods you can see as well. Take a look at this. Our next guest warned that this was coming last week. And here we are. What does this mean for this war going forward? Is this the gloves off moment from the Russian military which is just a warning shot across the bow? Europe seems to be doubling down, preparing for a longer drawn out war. We talked about the robotics that are now going to be coming to the battlefield and the Trump family making millions of dollars with that no bid contract for robotics to now be hitting the battlefield in Ukraine. So forget soldiers, the 2 million Ukrainians that are dead, who cares anymore, right? We'll just use robots to try to fight against Russia. So what comes next? Colonel Douglas MacGregor predicted that this was gonna happen, told us exactly what was about to happen, and here we are. Colonel, great to see you. Welcome back to the show.
- [26:14]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
Hey, thanks. Good to be with you.
- [26:17]
Clayton Morris
What do you make of this latest round of attacks last night? What was used? What do you know, Maybe we can just speak militarily first and then we can talk more broadly about the next stages of this war.
- [26:31]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
Well, before I make try to make some sense out of all of it, I just want to say that, you know, Ben, I've known Ben Freeman for years, and Ben has been in the fight for rationality in defense as long or as longer than I have. So I'm really glad that you brought him on and I'm not surprised that he's under attack for doing what he's doing. But this is a do or die mission, I think right now in the eyes of the Israel lobby. But thanks to people like Ben, there's a chance we can stop this. I think what we're seeing with the Russians, as you point out, is what we anticipated. They've used tactical theater, ballistic missiles, various kinds of unmanned systems, cruise missiles. We could go through the vocabulary. No one will remember what all of these were. But you're talking about 1,000, 2,000 pound warheads, precision guidance. What's important is that even though they struck a number of targets, the targets were all related to military functions. And then secondly, only 17 people were killed. As far as I know, none of this is going to make up for the loss of the lives of those schoolgirls and schoolchildren that were killed in Ukraine or, excuse me, in Russia. But this probably makes the population of Russia somewhat happy to know that there's a price being paid for this. The problem, and this is the most important question, and you raised it, Clayton, what does this really mean? Is this the beginning of something bigger, more sweeping, more decisive, or what? And I think the Russian people are asking the same question once again. Strikes alone do not win wars. If you're waiting around for everybody to give up and throw their hands in the air and go home in Eastern Ukraine is not going to happen. They're going to sit there as long as they are allowed to sit there. So the question is, when will the concentrations of Russian ground forces actually move decisively west and put an end to the war? So I don't have the answer.
- [28:44]
Clayton Morris
So in some ways, Colonel, is this like the Doolittle raid? And not to be like a history nerd here, but of course, after the attack on Pearl harbor In World War II, we carried out the Doolittle raids right against Tokyo. It was really for the cameras. It was to show that we could attack and hit Japan, barely, and just kind of put it. Now, this is totally different in that Russia could hit Ukraine with all it wants, whenever it wants. Totally different than the Doolittle raid. But is this really, I guess, maybe for the cameras, or was this a really strategic strike softening up targets ahead of a massive move by the Russian Army?
- [29:20]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
Well, that's what I don't know. It certainly hit critical nodes. There's no question about that. So you could say it was strategic. But we know from experience throughout history that however powerful your strikes are, if you cannot rapidly follow them up on the ground and exploit the effects, then the strikes don't win the battle. You know, this is something the Russians really learned the hard way against the Germans. Eisenhower and Zhukov were talking after the war, and Eisenhower was showing him various kinds of equipment. He showed him some mine sweeping equipment. And Zhukov asked General Eisenhower, well, how long does it take you to get that equipment to the front? And he said, well, perhaps an hour, maybe two. Zhukov said, that won't work against the Germans. If you don't exploit the right away, within 10 minutes, the Germans are there and will kill you. That was the end of the discussion. I think this is the problem the Russians have got to fix. They've got to follow up these strikes. They cannot just launch, sit back, applaud the outcomes, celebrate the effects. They've got to cross that river and get into Kiev and get rid of this regime. They've got to cross the river, they've got to march south, go into Odessa and seize Odessa. These are absolutely vital things that must happen. And I don't think that the Russians should, should be all that concerned about what the Europeans say or do. I mean, these people are to be, to be polite, full of hot air. They have nothing to throw back. And right now, Donald Trump is sitting somewhere in a Dark room, trying to find his way out and can't down in the Persian Gulf. So he's not going to get involved in this.
- [31:15]
Natalie
Now we just were talking about corruption and people who profit from the war. Some reporting is that a mod plant that was linked to Zelensky was hit by Russia. And so, you know, this will at least, I mean, I don't know what this accomplishes it. Maybe you could tell me. The factory was long linked to Zelensky. It did produce long range attack UAVs and missiles. So at the very least it weakens Ukraine's ability to answer if they do advanced into these cities.
- [31:50]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
Well, one of the people that works with me closely who reads Russian and speaks Russian fluently, goes to the press every day for me. And one of the things he did for me was he went through several press releases over the last many weeks and I don't know how many times it was three or four times a comment was made about Monsieur's Kushner and Witkoff and saying, we understand, we're Russians, we're familiar with this sort of thing, we understand why Kushner is there as a son in law and why Witkoff, an old business crony of the President is there. But please, can't you send some people back who are prepared to talk seriously about the issue which is ending the war in Ukraine, finding a way out of this. We, we can make side deals with them at their convenience after the talks stop and think about that statement. That's what was in, that was what's in Russian in the papers. I think we have a huge problem with this corruption business. You have BlackRock that is trying to buy up hundreds of thousands of acres of Ukrainian farmland. You have people that are talking about turning Eastern Ukraine or Western Ukraine rather into some sort of new Israeli destination by denuding it of Ukrainians and bringing in people from Israel. I mean, there are all sorts of strange things going on, but you also have to look at the money sources and where the money's coming from and you suddenly realize these are all the same people that are pushing for war in the Persian Gulf and have been pushing for war against Russia. It's, it's frightening and it does pay handsomely. And I think the Russians know that. And I think increasingly you're going to see the Russians pick targets that they know represent investment from the west, particularly from the United States.
- [33:48]
Natalie
Well, to your point, can you put the link I just sent you on the screen that's in Tass. Russia is in fact looking for diplomacy While they are escalating the war. This is in English here. Russia is ready for normalizing relations with us provided its interest because they know there's no one in Ukraine to talk to that would be able to be a serious decision maker. They are still reaching out. Who the hell in the US Is receptive to this? It's a busy signal, don't you think?
- [34:21]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
I think you're being kind. I'm not even sure the phone is hooked up. I think we're dealing with a very amateurish group. They thought they were going to walk in, take over this successful government or whatever they thought it was at the time, and they were going to ride it to greater glory. It's almost as though they went down to the pier, got onto the biggest yacht they could find and said, okay, let's, let's go, let's fish, let's party on the ocean. They've discovered that the yachts in pretty bad shape. The ocean isn't cooperating, storms are terrible and there are people trying to sink them. And they're sort of in denial. You know, you've got the President of the United States who talks a great game. I mean, every time he opens his mouth, he tells everybody we're close to a settlement, the war will be over any time. This is the same man that told us all even before he was elected. I can end the war in Ukraine on a phone call. Been able to do nothing. And this is back to what Putin talked about when he met W and subsequently Obama and eventually Biden. He said, I've talked to all these presidents. He said, I think all of them are well intentioned. They all promise to do things, but once they're installed, nothing happens because I don't think they're really in charge. And I think he's concluded that President Trump is not in charge. And I don't know who he expects to talk to. He would like to talk to someone in the State Department. He would like to see some evidence for a coherent strategy. Remember, their underlying assumptions are not the same as ours. They're assuming we would like to see the war end. I'm not sure that's true. That's very clear on the Russian side. I think more the European publics feel that way. Most Americans aren't even interested. But he's not dealing with someone who wants to end the war. And what we've done is we've convinced China, Russia and Iran of the value of a triangular alliance that reinforces itself and is prepared to cope with whatever attacks we throw. At them. I think that's the real outcome.
- [36:37]
Clayton Morris
Before we take a break, I want to get your take on this massive new tranche of money from the EU that's really flowing into Ukraine and then by proxy into Sweden purchasing these Gripen fighter jets. Last week I saw some Ukrainian apologists online saying, thank God this will turn the tide of the war, that Ukraine is going to get 150 of these Gripen fighter jets from Sweden and they're going to be delivered soon, I don't know how long. $90 billion. Now, they took out a loan. They've already completely mortgaged their future to the imf, the World bank and so forth. So Ukraine is not a country by any counts anymore anyway. They've mortgaged everything to BlackRock and Vanguard. So now $90 billion for these fricking fighter jets. And I posted online and I said, you've got to be foolish. The idea that, that these jets are gonna really ever land in theater at all and wouldn't be destroyed the moment they hit the ground is ridiculous. And also, if they did get off the ground, who's gonna fly these things? Are there just tons of great fighter jet pilots sitting there in Ukraine in a conference room just eating, Waiting for the equipment. Yeah. Eating ramen noodles just waiting for that jet. This is like madness to me. Colonel, can you unpack this?
- [37:49]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
Well, I can tell you that I've been to the Gripen assembly line and that is a brilliant aircraft. Pound for pound, given what you're paying for, it is maybe the best aircraft in the world. Wow. If there were any country in the world today and I had a choice between the F35 and the Gripen, I would take the current, modernized Gripen. It's easier to maintain. Its performance in the air is spectacular. We grossly overstate the value of all this Stealth. Stealth can delay detection in many cases, but it doesn't guarantee invisibility by any means. But you're right, Clayton. Maybe they're going to cut a deal. The Austrians have the Gripen. Maybe they can entice for the right amount of money large numbers of Austrians to come in and sit in the pilot seats. I don't know how long it'll take them to get 150 Gripens. I imagine they won't all show up tomorrow. So I think they can probably find some pilots that are already out there. And the Austrians still remain very, very pro Ukrainian. They don't really understand the fight over there themselves, but they still remain very pro Ukraine. That goes back to the old Austrian Empire. So I'm sure they can find people to pilot those aircraft. We've got a lot of mercenaries on the ground right now in Ukraine, as you know.
- [39:07]
Clayton Morris
Right, yeah. So they'll be lining up to fly them if they even. I don't even. I just can't imagine. I mean, Russia's going to see these deliveries arriving, whether by rail or otherwise. And how are they just not going to level them the moment they arrive on the. Arrive on a tarmac, but.
- [39:22]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
Well, I think that's true. But I would go one step further. I think the Swedes ought to reconsider the wisdom of this whole business because their factories could very easily be targeted and destroyed. There's not a damn thing they can do about it. If they think that the United States is going to trigger a nuclear response to Russia, they're out of their minds. We are not going to put the United States of America at risk of total annihilation in a nuclear holocaust because the Russians strike a target in Sweden or Lithuania or Latvia or Estonia or Poland or anywhere else. Extended deterrence is dead. It's a joke. We need to get away from it. It's not going to happen.
- [40:04]
Clayton Morris
And NATO is a joke, which would show that the emperor has no clothes. Colonel, stay right there. We're going to take a quick break. We want to come back and talk about this. This blow up with Netanyahu and Trump. And Trump and whether, like what you believe about it, what's the truth in it, and. But Zionists are coming out, you know, saying we need to go after the leaks, which means that they believe this phone call was real. So they're not like, shooting down the veracity of the claims about this phone call. They're saying we need to go after the leakers who leaked this to the press, therefore verifying the fact that this phone call was real. So we'll talk about that in a moment.
- [40:40]
Natalie
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- [42:10]
Clayton Morris
So in our chat room says that Trump leaked this phone call himself. We'll talk about that in a second. So did President Trump really blow up on Benjamin Netanyahu, calling him crazy, telling him the quote, quote, no one likes you. And I could have told him that. But you know, for Trump to do it, they seem so. Buddy, buddy. So according to Axios, a new report from Axios, Trump exploded at Netanyahu on the phone, called him effing crazy, said you'd be in prison if it weren't for me. Said everybody hates you now. Like these are all true statements to
- [42:41]
Natalie
say there's no lie, no lie detected.
- [42:43]
Clayton Morris
Yeah, there's no lie. I mean he literally, he would be in prison, they'd carry out that crip, that crime corruption investigation. And government officials have said they're absolutely going to. But because he's a wartime president or prime minister, that that gets pushed to the side. Here's a piece from the article. President Trump lashed out at Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu over Israel's escalation in Lebanon in an expletive laden call on Monday to U.S. officials. And a third source briefed on the call told Axios. So was it Trump that told him anyway, why it matters. Earlier on Monday, Iran threatened to abandon the negotiations because of this, the Israel's actions in Lebanon. Then they got on the call and Trump's like, what are you doing Once again, you're trying to scuttle some sort of a peace agreement here and you're putting the, you know, you're putting the brakes on us to do this.
- [43:31]
Dr. Ben Freeman
Please stop.
- [43:32]
Natalie
Way to catch up.
- [43:33]
Clayton Morris
Please Stop striking Beirut anyway.
- [43:36]
Natalie
You're thwarting my peace deal.
- [43:38]
Dr. Ben Freeman
Huh?
- [43:39]
Natalie
Maybe he should take a look at Gaza.
- [43:41]
Clayton Morris
Two of the sources said Trump claimed he'd helped keep Netanyahu out of jail, a reference to his support during Netanyahu's corruption trial. Summarizing Trump's remark to Netanyahu, the official said, you're effing crazy. You'd be in prison if it weren't for me. I'm saving your ass. Everyone hates you now. Everyone hates Israel because of this. And he asked him, and he says. Another source said Trump was pissed, and at one point, he yelled at Netanyahu and said, what the f Are you doing?
- [44:08]
Natalie
You know what this reminds me of the scene in Liar, Liar. Stop breaking the law, asshole.
- [44:14]
John Ziegler
Yeah, just.
- [44:15]
Natalie
How about stop killing people? It's not funny, but it's so obvious that someone needs to say this to his face. We're just not sure if it actually was Trump.
- [44:26]
Clayton Morris
Well, it's remarkable that Trump had this awareness about it. A lot of people think that maybe he doesn't even know that the world kind of, you know, has turned. Turned against Israel, Netanyahu. Anyway, let's bring in Colonel Douglas MacGregor, who, of course, is fully aware of this story and all the different pieces of it. Colonel, you had Zionists like Mark Levin out there not chastising the article, saying, hey, this is false, instead saying, we need to go after the leakers of this phone call. We need to put these people on blast. And somebody in our chat room believes that it was Trump himself who leaked this phone call. I mean, who knows? But anyway, I just find it interesting that you have. Zionists aren't, like, discrediting this Axios report. They say, we need to go after the leakers. That's a bigger problem here. What do you make of this?
- [45:14]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
Well, it seems like an interesting mix of truth and falsehoods, to be blunt. I mean, on the one hand, this is rather useful to Trump because it enables him to say, look, I'm not really a puppet. You know, it's sort of like, I am not a crook.
- [45:30]
Clayton Morris
Right?
- [45:31]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
It's the same principle. I'm not a puppet. I'm my own man, and this is evidence for it. On the other hand, he's quite capable of speaking in those terms, and his language is excessively colorful, let's put it that way. But in the final analysis, it means nothing, absolutely nothing. If you want to stop the Israelis from moving north to kill more people, destroy more property, to ethically stop ethnically cleansing all of South Lebanon. Stop ethically cleansing Gaza. What do you do, Clayton? You say, you pick up the phone and you say, Mr. Prime Minister, I've gone as far as I can go, and we are reaching an agreement with Iran that will bring this unhappy episode to an end in the Persian Gulf. I wanted to let you know, because if you don't support this and you will not support us and what we're trying to achieve, then you are on your own and you will have no further support from us. And thank you for your attention to these matters.
- [46:41]
Clayton Morris
Right, yeah, but he's not going to do that. Right? That's the.
- [46:45]
Natalie
Well, I'm racking my brain in just the last, like, say, year and a half of the times that we've been told that there is daylight between President Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu. So while he was still campaigning, he reposted a Jeffrey Sachs video, calling Netanyahu an sob I believe. Then, when the bombing continued between Iran and Israel in the summer of 25, he said, we have two countries that don't know what the f. They're doing. And then in the last month, he said that Israel's forbidden from further strikes in Lebanon. So these words are a continuation of what seems to be theater because the actions don't stop. We are paying to destroy Lebanon the same way we did pay to destroy Gaza. We are supporting a genocide that's not gonna stop just because we see some personal explosions. So, like, it'd be a Bush situation. Fool me once, shame on you. Right? Or whatever.
- [47:47]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
I can end this war in a phone call.
- [47:49]
Natalie
Right?
- [47:49]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
Right back to Gaza. We now estimate, what, 400,000 lives are being lost there, and people continue to die there. The situation in Lebanon is no different. It's just, you know, organized mass murder. Now. Most people in the west are not paying much attention. There are a lot of Americans, certainly in my age group, that don't care. I mean, they tell me that on a routine basis, I don't care. So that's why it goes on. But there are some other things happening in the background. Our position economically is weakening with each passing day. The Strategic Petroleum Reserve is being drained. And if you listen to Paul Sankey and others like him who are experts in the field, they will tell you that at the current rate, probably by the middle of July or latest late July, the Strategic Petroleum Reserve will be empty. It will no longer be possible for the President to suppress gasoline prices or jet fuel prices here at home. That's the tip of the proverbial iceberg. We haven't Talked about the fertilizer problem, the 45, 46, 47% of bankruptcies in the agricultural sector. Sector because farmers can't afford to buy the fertilizer. Fertilizer is extremely expensive. You know, the hydrogen, the urea, all these, all these elements that go into making fertilizer, not coming out of the Gulf. We're trying to make arrangements to buy these things from the Russians. I hope we're successful. I think we probably will get some from them. But my point is our position is weakening very fast and we're going to have a very unhappy American electorate by the fall. Extremely unhappy with their standard of living, with the prices they're dealing with. We're talking about 6% inflation. And normally if you have 6% inflation, then you expect to have 7% interest rates, right? Well, if you do that, you know what happens to us here at home? We can't service the debt. We watch the bond markets. The bond markets are volatile. Britain's bond market is ready to explode. They've already reached 5% in the 10 year bonds, gilts, as they call them. Bottom line is there's no good news here. But there could be some better news if the President intervened quickly to end the war in the Persian Gulf by simply saying we didn't appreciate the global impact. And as President of the United States, on behalf of the American people, I want to ensure that we are on the side of humanity and our humanitarian instincts dictate an end to this war right now because we don't want people starving in six months or a year because they couldn't grow crops. It's that simple. He could do that and he would be a hero. He could turn around on Ukraine and say, that's it, I'm not going to support you anymore because you're killing civilians. And believe me, they do Ukrainians, they look for targets in a particular area and they'll go through whatever they can find and they'll kill something with whatever they've got. This can all end. But it takes leadership, takes courage on the part of President Trump to end. It doesn't seem to understand that that would go down very well with the American people.
- [51:10]
Clayton Morris
Right? American people are pretty forgiving when John F. Kennedy can get up there after the Bay of Pigs invasion and, and take the blame, take the fall and admit his wrongdoing and ask for forgiveness. And his poll numbers went up after he admitted fault. Like Americans are pretty forgiving if you do that. At the heart of it though, Colonel, is that now it doesn't. I don't know what sort of negotiations are happening at this point.
- [51:33]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
There are none. Come on, let's be. There are no negotiations.
- [51:36]
Clayton Morris
I mean, Iran went home.
- [51:38]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
Yeah, well, when we say we're talking to the Iranians, what they're saying is we sent a message to the Pakistanis. They in turn sent a message to the Iranians. Something came back or didn't. And the latest that came back is nothing. We were finished. We're done with you. And we don't. We find that incomprehensible. I mean, how could little tiny in, you know, inscrutable Iran turn to us, the greatest power on the face of the earth, and say, we're no longer talking to you. They just did it.
- [52:10]
Clayton Morris
They just took a football and went home.
- [52:12]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
This is the other side of this war that people in the United States are not hearing about, don't understand. When you go into a war like this and you're facing off a power that spends a fraction of what you do on defense, and you go in there and you lambaste them with every conceivable weapon system you own, everything in your inventory, barring of course, a thermonuclear device, and you fail. The world notices, Clayton. Everyone in the world knows that. Gee, it looks like the United States Navy is not, after all, what we thought. It looks as though we've been spending our money on the wrong equipment. We should be spending our money on missiles, drones, satellite based surveillance, intelligence, reconnaissance, assets. We can protect our countries and we can deny access to anybody if we know how to do this. Iran has shown us the way. I mean, this is not a good thing for us, reputationally. And I just don't see any good news coming out of it for us as long as we double down on failure.
- [53:23]
Natalie
Now, recently you posted a video called all for what? It was fantastic. It was. It's on your YouTube channel. And thenationalconversation.org, you can find more about it there. You called for a full disclosure of the compromising information about our politicians, what's in the Epstein files. You called for the end of dual citizenship for elected representatives. And you pointed out that the obvious is that this war will only be bad for us and will continue to be bad for us. And there is no buying the fact that. That it will not hurt us collectively. Are you running for President? Because that's a great platform. And what more can you tell us about that?
- [54:07]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
No, I'm not running for President. I occasionally run to the men's room, but don't do Any running other than that.
- [54:15]
Natalie
Okay.
- [54:17]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
I'm an American who's a former professional soldier who spent his life watching these things happen. I mean, I've seen lots of good decisions made. I've also seen lots of bad decisions made. It seems as though to me, at any rate, that from 91 onward, I've been witness to lots of really bad decisions. And I've gotten tired of it. And I've. I've gotten tired of it because it hasn't mattered who was in office. We still got bad decisions. So the first thing is we need a third party movement. Yes, it's absolutely vital and essential. I think there's an appetite for it. But people with deep pockets who give a damn have to join the fight. You know, the thing is, we've got too many billionaires and millionaires who are concerned with what somebody will say to them at the country club, you know, oh, I. I didn't realize you were aligning yourself with those people. You know, this kind of nonsense. They got to get over that. They have to understand the survival of our country is at stake. We're going to have to build a new republic. Hear me on this. A new republic. The old one is dying. All you have to do is look at Washington D.C. the Epstein files are evidence for the death of the old republic. We've got too many people that, as I pointed out in the remarks that I made, you herd them into a room and then you tell them, look, I'm going to make all of this public unless you go along with what I want. And everybody will shut up and do what you tell them. We can't run the country this way. We'll run it into the ground. And I think that's what's happening as we speak. So this has got to stop. And the Epstein files do have to become public. And at this point, I feel very sorry for some of the people who will be hurt, who's. Whose acts may have been modest or minor, but there are a lot of things in there that are not good. And if I have to listen to another woman tell me about the loss of her child and be reminded that we lose 300,000 children roughly a year for whom we cannot account because of the sick, perverse system of human trafficking, we're going to throw up on camera. I mean, it's that bad. And these people are facilitating it. When you, when you fail to be held accountable, when you resist accountability, when you decline to be responsible, you are aiding and abetting criminality and corruption, and it's killing Us all the while we are sending hundreds of billions of dollars overseas either to blow people up, fight wars that we don't need to fight, support people that we shouldn't support in the name of, what is it? Liberal democracy. I haven't figured this out. If that's liberal democracy, I don't want anything to do with it. So it's got to stop. And that's why I made the.
- [57:07]
Clayton Morris
Well, you're echoing the sentiments of millions of Americans. And you know, there's what, 90 to 100 million Americans that don't vote because they believe both parties are absolutely corrupt and they're so checked out in the system, a system that they believe has totally failed them. And I think you're absolutely right. We need a third party, a serious third party in this country. And those millionaires and billionaires that are out there that are also disaffected should step up and help fund that party and help make it a national movement. But you know, it's sad when I look back at, you know, like Ross Perot was probably the last one we had that could have pulled off a third party victory. And then even before that you had a incredibly popular president in Theodore Roosevelt under the Bull Moose ticket. So he leaves office, runs as a third party candidate under the Bull Moose ticket and loses. He saw frickin Mount Rushmore. So, you know, we need a serious third party. Wouldn't it be amazing to finally have a third party that can win in this country and stop these two corrupt parties? It would be amazing, yeah.
- [58:10]
Natalie
Yesterday, Clayton and I were talking over coffee in the morning, like, what is with the political apathy? We're just watching, you know, a genocide, we're watching a financial collapse. We're just watching it. We're all just sitting there like we can't do anything about it. And I understand how people can get apathetic about it, but we have to fight.
- [58:31]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
Well, people are becoming angry, let there be no doubt about it. I was talking to someone who lives in Chicago and their comment to me was I don't agree with the mayor of Chicago. I think we need the military here. We need the military to put a stop to this tidal wave of criminality in Chicago. I don't know if my grandson is going to make it to, you know, fifth grade because whenever he goes to school somebody takes a shot at somebody. So these things are making a difference. People are beginning to be very angry. So I'm actually optimistic in the sense that I think there's enough anger out there if we can mobilize it and channel it and move it in a positive direction. And I think we can make profound change. But that means that we have to start talking about a new republic.
- [59:20]
Clayton Morris
Yeah.
- [59:20]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
What do we want the new republic to look like? Because the old one doesn't work.
- [59:25]
Clayton Morris
No, I agree. And unfortunately, I think it was Churchill said that Americans will do the right thing inevitably after they've exhausted all other options.
- [59:33]
Natalie
It was Churchill.
- [59:34]
Clayton Morris
You know, maybe it'll be at the point at which we feel so much pain, whether financially, economically, where there is this new republic rising up, saying we can't handle it anymore. We're sick and tired of it. Here's a comment from one of our viewers on the screen here from Floored Patriot says Democrats and Republicans are cancer to America need to be removed in order for America to survive. Anything less won't work. Thank you.
- [59:58]
Natalie
Amen.
- [59:58]
Clayton Morris
Yeah, Amen to that. And here's one.
- [60:01]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
We need to give him a scalpel.
- [60:03]
Clayton Morris
Yes. And Caius says this nation needs to return to Christ. Amen to that. All right.
- [60:12]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
That presumes that many of the people currently there were ever near him to begin with. That's another subject.
- [60:17]
Natalie
Right.
- [60:18]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
I'm tired of people beating the Bible in public, but they don't walk the walk.
- [60:23]
Clayton Morris
Oh, absolutely right about that. And then they want to carry out genocide while beating the Bible in public.
- [60:29]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [60:29]
Clayton Morris
Colonel, great to see you. Thank you so much again. People should check out. I'll put it up here on the screen if you want to go to. To the YouTube channel. But you can just follow the national conversation on Twitter, the Nat Convo and they are posted there OR Doug A. McGregor on X& you can watch the full video. It's great. Colonel, great to see you as always. Thank you so much for your time.
- [60:49]
Colonel Douglas MacGregor
Thank you both very much. Bye bye.
- [60:51]
Clayton Morris
Thanks, Colonel. All right. All right, Coming up, I feel it. And I want just his sentiments about. We need to marshal these feelings. We need to get. We need to 100 million Americans who are disjust don't even vote. And then layer on top of that the millions who do vote who are just so fed up with this system, they're gonna bounce back and forth between Democrats and Republicans every cycle.
- [61:15]
Natalie
Yeah, we gotta stop this. It's not fun. It's not a fun game. It's only hurting us all.
- [61:20]
Clayton Morris
So how many times can people fall for it? Like, you know, they get disaffected.
- [61:24]
Natalie
Well, I've gone a few rounds, so.
- [61:27]
Clayton Morris
I mean, you see people like Nick Fuentes, he's like, I'm Voting Democrats again. Like, you, you're gonna, like you're going back on the cycle now. Just getting back on the site. The same, like, exercise bike at the gym. Both of these parties are massively corrupt. Like, I know you want to see the Republican comeuppance. And I agree. Like, you know, these MAGA liars who lied to everybody. Like, we all want to see their comeuppance, like, get thrown out of office. Sure. But then to vote for Democrats. No. Equally icky and dirty. All right, all right. Coming up on the show, we're going to talk about this new Netflix MJ series that's coming out, this Michael Jackson series that everyone already is starting to boycott because, well, you want to look at the nefarious individuals that are involved with this BS hit job. And it's convenient the timing of this, when the Michael Jackson biopic is like the number one film in the movie theaters and has led to this massive resurgence. And then of course, now you have these nerdy wells coming out trying to make up more stories and fakery.
- [62:28]
Natalie
Right. So how many times are we going to go around this? You know, was Michael Jackson a sexual abuser? So we're going to talk to someone who actually covered the 2005 trial in just a second. I'm looking forward to you hearing about this.
- [62:40]
Clayton Morris
Indeed. But first. But first, we want to tell you about our friends at upwork. Something I use every day. I've been using it for what we been using what, 15 years. I feel like upwork. Exactly. Thank you for.
- [62:52]
Natalie
Yes.
- [62:53]
Clayton Morris
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- [64:30]
Natalie
to release say documentary on Wednesday called Michael Jackson the Verdict. It uses incredibly sketchy sources and so fans expect another hit piece like Leaving Neverland accusing Jackson of having been a pervert and a child abuser. Now recently I spoke to journalist John Ziegler. He is an LA reporter who covered the Michael Jackson trial in 2005. He has a lot of opinions on why the media still so obsessed with this Jackson as a pedophile allegation, how the media continues to get it wrong and why they would do this. I hope you enjoy this interview. Watch. Why is the media still so obsessed with Michael Jackson and why do they continuously refuse to tell the whole story when they report on this? Now a new Netflix documentary is coming out on June 3rd. It's called the Verdict. Having not seen it, I'm skeptical that they will actually focus on the verdict of innocence. Recently an online influencer asked this question why Epstein and not Michael Jackson? Now when you study the Michael Jackson case, you might have what I have is the opposite question. Why does the media ignore the real and gruesome crimes of the Epstein class and go so hard on allegations about Michael Jackson? Well, John Ziegler joined, joins us today. He actually covered the Michael Jackson trial. He is someone who speaks out a lot about media malpractice around Michael Jackson allegations and he joins us today. Thank you so much for joining me Natalie.
- [66:02]
John Ziegler
Thanks for having me on.
- [66:04]
Natalie
So you have the experience of having covered the trial and you watch the media continuously tell a one sided story incredibly lopsided. So tell us your experience experience and how you are experiencing this now with this renewed malpractice of media reporting.
- [66:24]
John Ziegler
Natalie, I come at this from a pretty unique perspective because when the trial happened in the early 2000s, I was a radio talk show host in Los Angeles, California and I hadn't really paid that much attention to the Michael Jackson story before this. I grew up as a kid in the 80s and so obviously everyone knew who Michael Jackson was, but I wasn't a massive fan. And it was clear to me that he was weird. And I was very open to the allegations being based in reality. And I was presuming he was guilty because I'm a conservative, I'm a prosecution guy. It was my view at that time that the prosecution is usually right, that they're to be believed, that these are trustworthy people, that they wouldn't railroad somebody just for whatever agenda that they might have. And I kept thinking and, and remember this, I was at KFI Radio in Los Angeles, which was a very anti Michael Jackson station. I mean, more so than just my time slot. And so I felt like I was kind of obligated to go along with this mob that was against Michael Jackson. And I kept waiting as we were covering the trial on a daily basis for there to actually be some real evidence. And there never was. And it wasn't just that there was no evidence. They couldn't prove the case. The case at trial completely and totally fell apart. It was a joke. It was a humiliation for the prosecution. And people need to understand the context of that trial. And I'm so glad that you said that Netflix, the verdict is likely not to actually pay much attention to the verdict because, well, you said it.
- [68:01]
Natalie
I don't want to take credit for being clever. You said it before we started.
- [68:04]
John Ziegler
It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who came up with it, because it's, it's 100% true. It's ironic that there's a very good chance that the whole Netflix documentary is going to be about avoiding the verdict, which is the title of the film series, because that verdict was remarkable in the context of what was happening at the time. You have to remember this is still in the post O.J. simpson era in Southern California, there is an enormous amount of skepticism towards a celebrity case. There's a lot of anger towards the acquittal of O.J. simpson. This is in Santa Barbara, not in Los Angeles. This is a non black jury, a mostly white jury. The media was 100% against Michael Jackson. He was. He and Tom Mesereau, a guy I've gotten to know pretty darn well, his attorney, were going into hurricane headwinds in this trial. The media was against them, the culture was against them. The OJ Factor, I think, played a, could have played a huge role. And despite all that, this Jury didn't just acquit Michael Jackson. This wasn't like a hung jury or something like that. This was unanimous on all counts. That's almost impossible in that climate, in that context, unless you're talking about actual innocence. And now this revisionist history, this idea that we can go back because it's been a couple of decades, that somehow two decades later, this case that fell apart at trial is suddenly going to get better simply because the media has a fascination with Michael Jackson as a massive celebrity that's never been going to be duplicated. There's never going to be another Michael Jackson. There's ratings when it comes to Michael Jackson on both sides. Pro Michael Jackson, anti Michael Jackson. You're going to get ratings. But to also answer your question, Natalie, I think there's two things also driving this with regard to media malpractice. The news media can't stand admitting when they are wrong. They have massive amounts of arrogance. And so they bought into the case against Michael Jackson just like I did. But I was willing to admit that I was wrong. And they can never let go of it because they can't admit they were wrong. And then I think there's another angle, which is 20 years later, there's a lot of media members who don't have an experience with that trial. And they can be easily duped into believing that somehow this was a celebrity getting away with a crime. It's the exact opposite. This. This was a moral panic that somehow Michael Jackson escaped mainly because Thomas Mesero was a great attorney and to the case against him completely and totally fell apart.
- [70:42]
Natalie
Right. And so maybe I am one of those. I was, you know, still in grad school during these trials. I was, you know, not paying close attention. I, you know, and then now I see the juxtaposition between the Epstein files where the government has evidence of real sexual assault and demonic practices and pedophilia and human trafficking, and the media has blinders on like, well, that's just. He was prosecuted, he got a sweetheart deal, it's fine. And then for this case, they indict right out of the gate and I cannot make heads or tails of this. So going back to study the Arviso trial and we don't know if they're gonna focus on the Arviso trial. I assume they are because that's the only one that actually went to court. It was such a flawed case that the judge allowed the prosecution to tack on lesser charges so that they had a chance of winning and they couldn't even Win that. Would you like to explain that?
- [71:48]
John Ziegler
Well, you said a lot of things there. First of all, with regard to Epstein, you and I have a little bit different view of the Epstein thing. I actually think the media has covered Epstein probably more than it deserved to be covered. I mean, I don't think you want to get into a discussion of Epstein. I agree that he was a horrible guy and committed crimes and he admitted to those crimes, pled guilty. But I think that there's been a media narrative around that that is not based in reality. I think he was mostly hiring prostitutes, some of whom were underage, which is a very different thing than the allegations against Michael Jackson. But as far as the case against Michael Jackson, I think the number one disconnect, and it really shows a lack of critical thinking among those that still want to believe that Michael Jackson was guilty. Is this inability among these people to, to understand what the level of evidence should be in 2026. If Michael Jackson was guilty, there should be no question about it at this point. There should be a mountain of evidence because he's been dead now for almost two decades. We've had all sorts of opportunity with a media hurricane wind at their back and every lawyer in the country wanting to, to represent someone who's an accuser of Michael Jackson if he was guilty. Can we just for a second put on our thinking caps? If Michael Jackson was actually guilty at this point, there would be no ambiguity about this because there would be hundreds of credible accusers that would come forward trying to get a piece of his estate and now no longer afraid to come forward because he's been long dead and because the media is very willing to, to take their side in the story. Instead, what do we have, Natalie? We have a handful of scam artists who are clearly financially motivated, whose stories make no sense. They don't hold up under scrutiny. I mean, the Leaving Neverland, quote, unquote, documentary was debunked in every possible way. I was a big part of that. I played a pretty significant role in debunking a lot of what was in Leaving Neverland. Those two accusers, Wade Robson and James Safechuck, are total, complete frauds. I feel totally comfortable saying that they are lying. In fact, I think a strong case has been made that they know they're lying. There are clips from that film where they're clearly holding back laughter because they can't believe people are believing them. I mean, and yet. So no one wants to think this through, especially the critics of Michael Jackson, and think, okay, what level of Evidence. When you have this kind of scrutiny, a massive FBI investigation, a criminal trial, by the way, why no civil trials at this point? Natalie, why have we never to this point had a civil trial involving Michael Jackson facing allegations of child sex abuse? It would be the easiest thing in the world to do. Not one. Now we might get one with Robson and save Chuck and I'm hopeful that the justice will prevail there. But the reality is he's been dead now for almost two decades. When he was alive and in the, and after his death, not one civil trial. This is completely contradictory to what we should be expecting. If Michael Jackson was really what we were told that he is, the serial pedophile who would have had hundreds of victims and instead many of the so called victims that the, the critics of Michael Jackson want to believe were victims. People like Macaulay Culkin and Brett Barnes are very strongly supportive of Michael Jackson and say this is a BS narrative. So that's my major point in all this. Think about this logically folks. What would when you have someone of that level of celebrity with that much money at stake, there should be massive amounts of evidence at this point and instead there's nothing but a little bit of smoke motivated by financial gain.
- [75:44]
Natalie
Right. So the case that Robson and Savechuck are making are that they were victims of a trafficking ring and that Michael Jackson would host these meet and greets with children and then sort of draw them into his world when the evidence for both of them shows that their mothers, they were dance boys. So boys who are maid stars in their home dance studio and then are very youthful to being up and comers and their mothers had both been very aggressive at creating a relationship with Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson did not try to draw them in. And so that is just one of many pieces that falls through of their stories. Can you go through a few others from Leaving Neverland?
- [76:34]
John Ziegler
Well, what you just said is really important because it shows how their entire case is reverse engineered because the reason why they're doing this sex trafficking claim is that the statute of limitations ran out. And so they need, they need a legal avenue to be able to get this into court. And in order to get that legal avenue, they have concocted this entirely new narrative which is, as you've already implied, based in a fantasy. I mean the reality is that Michael Jackson, here's the real world of Michael Jackson, Wade Robson and James Safechuck. And I've had a long conversation, conversation with Brian Friedman, one of the Michael Jackson estate attorneys, who I think is actually relevant to other parts of what's going on publicly here and about this because after leaving Neverland, he and a couple of other Jackson attorneys wanted to have lunch with me. And I gave Brian Friedman, Jackson attorney, a state attorney, this assessment. What really happened here? I believe that Michael Jackson was the greatest thing that ever happened to Wade Robson and James Safechuck. He made their childhoods almost magical, in fact, probably were magical at times beyond any kid's wildest dreams. He made Wade Robson a celebrity. It was the best moments of James Safechuck's life. But then they became adults and Michael Jackson died and now all of a sudden they have to live a boring life as an adult with no connection to this massive celebrity of Michael Jackson. And now they have to live with their crappy life. That's nothing in comparison to what it was when they were a child in the glow of Michael Jackson. And weirdly, I actually think they have taken it out on Michael Jackson. I think that they have punished Michael Jackson for setting themselves up for a life of boredom and disappointment. And that is part of how they justify this BS lawsuit which makes no sense legally and from a factual perspective is absurd. Wade Robson, there's. I could talk for hours about what a fraud Wade Robson is.
- [78:44]
Natalie
But here's make sure that you include the fact that he dated Michael Jackson's niece for eight years and she did
- [78:49]
John Ziegler
her with Britney Spears and I played a fairly significant role in that becoming public. I'm the one that interviewed Brandi Jackson for Mediaite and to me it sounds like you understand where I'm going with this. To me this was a smoking God, that leaving Neverland is a joke because how do you leave out, if you're remotely credible documentary, how do you leave out the fact that your star Wade Robson dated Michael Jackson's niece for many years, many years during critical teenage years because Michael Jackson set the two of them up together. How do you ignore that? That's not relevant to the allegation that somehow at the same time period, Michael Jackson was sexually abusing Wade Robson. And oh, by the way, I think it goes even further because we've been told that when you are, and I understand this, I'm not objecting to this, but this is a big part of the, the narrative that when you are sexually abused as a young boy, it destroys you from a self confidence perspective, it destroys you sexually. There's all sorts of damage. I have no problem believing any of that.
- [80:01]
Natalie
That.
- [80:01]
John Ziegler
Then how do you wash that with the fact that Wade Robson ended up cheating on Brandy Jackson with Britney Spears while she was dating Justin Timberlake. How does, how does that guy, how does that fit with the narrative of what happens to a young boy when he's sexually molested by a man? I'm sorry, it doesn't. Especially when Wade Robson ends up as a pseudo celebrity, as an adult testifying at Michael Jackson's trial unambiguously that he was never abused by Jackson and that Jackson was the greatest thing that ever happened to him. Something he reiterated many times publicly, including when Michael Jackson died. He wrote a chapter in a book that praised Michael Jackson up and down. After Michael Jackson died, it all shifted when. After Jackson died and his connection, this goes back to my theory, to Brian Friedman. After Jackson dies, his connection to this, the estate is severed. And he doesn't realize that until he wants the job as the choreographer for this, this Michael Jackson show and he doesn't get the gig. And at that point, he realizes, oh, crap, I have no connection to Michael Jackson anymore. The gravy train is over and now I'm left with nothing. And so eventually he concocts this idea. And I have some theories as to how he concocted it, but he had. He concocts this idea that he's going to become an accuser of Michael Jackson. He goes on the Today show, he's interviewed by Matt Lauer. Interestingly, I had done an interview on another subject at the same time period with Matt Lauer in the realm of sexual abuse allegations. And Matt Lauer's producer asked me for my opinion on Wade Robson's interview because Matt Lauer, I've gotten to know exceedingly well since, which is a whole nother story, was having great suspicions about whether or not Wade Robson was actually telling the truth. This was back in 2013 when he first came forward. And then in Leaving Neverland, we find out all sorts of other things that go into the. The weeds on his story that are inconsistent, make no sense. The mother. To me, one of the most amazing things that happened in the aftermath of Leaving Neverland is that the mother who, as you already said, was a key part of forging this relationship with Michael Jackson.
- [82:30]
Natalie
Yes.
- [82:30]
John Ziegler
After, after Leaving Neverland comes out, we discover, and Michael Jackson fans are amazing at doing these kinds of investigations. We discover that his mother had been liking hosts on Facebook that were pro Michael Jackson for years after Wade Robson had come forward. But here's the most interesting thing, Natalie. Not only had she been liking these very pro Michael Jackson posts, the moment that I went forward publicly and exposed this, all of A sudden, the likes disappeared. So she knew that this was a problem and she went back into Facebook. And unlike all the Michael Jackson posts that she had been liking years after her son had come forward as an accuser of Michael Jackson, there's a mountain of evidence that Wade Robson and James Safechuck are completely lying frauds who are out for money. That's it.
- [83:27]
Natalie
If I may inject two other pieces that in my mind are incredibly important with this narrative that you just presented that the Robsons benefited from a continued relationship with Michael Jackson and they didn't know how to keep that going after his death. The first is Wade Robson tried continuously to have his wedding at Neverland. And he was asking during the trial and Michael's people are like, not a good time, dude. We're kind of on trial, It's a bad time. And he kept coming like, yes, I'm so sorry, he's on trial for a sexual assault, but can I have my wedding there now? If you're trying to make the romantic commitment of your life, would you do it in a place that you had been sexually assaulted? Just. That doesn't ring true to me. Second bit is that after Michael Jackson died, Wade Robson's mother called one of Michael's nephews and said, I would like custody of the Jackson children. I'm really worried about them. I think they should be with me. That's weird that there was no indication that the kids were not okay with Katherine Jackson. She was like. I think that she was just continuously trying to insert herself into the Jackson narrative. What, what business does she have asking for custody of the three Jackson minor children? That's crazy bananas.
- [84:48]
John Ziegler
It is. And I think it goes to this narrative of the desperation in the Robson camp that they had, that they had hooked their trailer to Michael Jackson and realizing after he's dead, oh my gosh, this is all gone now. There's there, there is no connection to any of this. And, and it was already fading before that. So that's, that's what happens when you are desperate. Crazy people do crazy things and it's completely and totally inconsistent with an allegation of abuse. But the critics of Michael Jackson, they, they have this incredible block and I honestly don't know. Natalie, is it because it's in their self interest because of ratings and other elements that have broken the media, or is it they're just this dumb? I don't know. Because, you know, for instance, you already referenced an article by the editor in chief of this outlet that put forward an article that Megyn Kelly embraced and others embraced that somehow revisits the trial and somehow proves that Michael Jackson is guilty. And. And this woman who I used to. She used to follow me on X. I had numerous interactions with her about this article. She stopped following me, so I couldn't interact with her anymore. She seems to have, like, a basic block on just logical thinking. Like, she's not even able to comprehend what. Why it is that her argument is so incredibly weak. And. And I feel the same way about the male author of the original piece for. For the same outlet. These people are just not smart. They don't have the ability to think. Think it through.
- [86:26]
Natalie
And so here's. I don't follow this person, but it's in my for you feed, which tells me the algorithm is promoting this narrative. And I don't know why, because it's so illogical. And a logical look at these cases shows you how full of holes they are.
- [86:45]
John Ziegler
Yeah. Look, as someone who bought into the case against Michael Jackson early on, I get why people have suspicions, all right? His weirdness made him incredibly vulnerable to these kinds of allegations. And as I always say to people now, with regard to his weirdness, of course he was weird. He was one of the most famous, talented, and rich, richest people on the planet, and he had no childhood. You put that combination together with anybody, they're gonna be weird, all right? Weird does not make you a criminal child sex abuser.
- [87:22]
Natalie
Right. And I just must interject because I, too, was raised a Jehovah's Witness like Michael Jackson. It's very hard to know how to be in the world when you are no longer a Jehovah's Witness. You don't know how to fit into certain. Like, I still am figuring out how to celebrate Christmas, it's not. So I just want to give him that little benefit of the doubt because it's really tough to reintegrate.
- [87:45]
John Ziegler
The biggest mistake in all this, this really goes back to the original settlement that Michael Jackson made with the first accuser. And. And how that I was one of those. That it, I think, understandably misinterpreted that when people, the average person thinks, my God, they spent. And there's been differing reports on how much. But up to $20 million you pay off an accuser to the average person, they go, how in the world could that possibly be consistent with innocence? I get that. But when you understand the context of what was happening at the time, how much money Michael Jackson had, how much damage could have been done to his brand had that come out at that time. And they thought, stupidly, that they could keep this under wraps by paying this off. That was the biggest mistake in all this because it ended up harming them in every direction possible. But you can actually understand why it made sense financially to make this go away. There was never any admission of wrongdoing, by the way. There was never a criminal charge related directly to that. There was. That case never became part of the criminal trial directly. There was never a civil trial involving that. So I understand why at first glance you go, oh, my gosh, this looks really bad. But when you think about it logically and you get into the details and you think it all the way through, I am exceedingly confident that Michael Jackson was never a child sex abuser. And it's really not that close.
- [89:23]
Natalie
Yes. And yet the media continues to give credence to Diane diamond, whose main source was Victor Gutierrez. These are incredibly compromised people in terms of their credibility. And in fact, didn't Michael Jackson win a judgment against them? Right. If I'm remembering correctly. Can you please tell that story, because you would know it better than me.
- [89:48]
John Ziegler
I'm a little hazy on the details, but I believe it was a couple million dollars where Diane diamond was connected to Gutierrez. And yes, they were forced to pay. I don't know if it was a settlement or a judgment or whatever it was, but. But that, to me, was the key moment in this trailer for this Netflix documentary series or whatever you want to call it, when Diane diamond is the star of the trailer. That's a massive.
- [90:13]
Natalie
Can we just say who she was? She was a hard copy journalist who has relied on incredible, incredibly thin sources.
- [90:19]
John Ziegler
Oh, beyond thin. She has an agenda in this case. I have dealt with her in other situations, and I found her to be, frankly, insane. And. And I don't say that lightly. I think she is an insane person. She clearly is crazed on this case. She has no credibility on this case. She has been duped. I mean, I mean, duped by people who are frauds on this case. And for her to be put forward as effectively a star in this documentary, immediately I'm like, okay, this has no credibility whatsoever. And, and, you know, so I. I don't understand how someone like that can continue to maintain some semblance of credibility in the news media, except for the fact that people don't remember the details. They forget this stuff. And the fact that we can go back now, you know, 21 years later and pretend that the case didn't really fall apart at trial is ridiculous. I mean, the facts are the Facts. The reality is the reality, if you understand the context, it was a miracle that Michael Jackson was acquitted on all charges and it was because the jury believed him effectively innocent, not just we couldn't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
- [91:29]
Natalie
Right. And so something I saw Tom Massereau give interviews recently and he talked about, I thought how this was fascinating that he had an expert tell him, don't put women on your jury. Try to object to women being on the jury. And he said no. My, my gut tells me to actually put women on the jury because men will see this and be like, what are you doing hanging out with kids? That's weird. And it will trigger their evaluation of their own masculinity. I don't want to call it homophobia, but they would just be so uncomfortable with it. It. Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead, follow that.
- [92:06]
John Ziegler
This is a subject that I've actually become incredibly familiar with on other cases. And I think Tom Mesereau, who I've already said I consider to be a friend, I've had a lot of, done several interviews with him. We've worked together on a couple different situations. I have enormous respect for Tom Mesereau and Tom Mesereau is exactly right on this. Because men lose their damn minds on this subject because of the idea of male on boy sex is just so understandably, literally mind blowing. They lose their, their ability to, to think logically. They, they become emotional, which is not normal for most men. And they also, in this day and age, they want a virtue signal. Right? There's a lot of virtue signaling around this issue of child sex abuse because no one wants to be seen as being in favor of child sex abuse. Obviously it's absurd, but I get accused of that all the time. But that's the way the public reacts to this. Now if you were defending someone who's accused somehow you're an enabler of child sex abuse. No man wants to do that. Women, I've always felt, I've always felt that, to be more specific, I think that middle aged women who are maybe more conservative minded and who have had teenage boys themselves are by far the best jury for this kind of situation because they understand reality and they understand the nature of teenage boys and, and, and sometimes the absurdity of, of some of these allegations. And I think they also understand that teenage boys are pretty unique in a way that men may not fully understand. So I completely agree with that assessment that, that if I was picking a jury in a case like this, it would absolutely be middle aged women who have had teenage Sons.
- [93:53]
Natalie
I have, I am a middle aged woman who has a teenage son. And when you look at the evidence of the Arviso case, specifically it was that, yes, you know, on the Martin Bashir documentary, Gavin Arviso said he wanted me to sleep in the same bed and said if you don't sleep in the bed, you don't love me. What was missing from the media telling of that story is that Michael did not sleep in that bed the one night that it was documented that they did sleep in the room. His children also slept in that bed, his three children on the same night. And that he had a two story bedroom. And there was a lot of evidence that he often either slept on couches or the floor. And that was just his way. So you know, the telling of this when people come for me now on X, like he slept in the bed with children, isn't that weird enough? Isn't that okay enough? That actually is not really the story, but it continues to be surfaced. Why? What do you mean of that when it's so provably told falsely?
- [94:47]
John Ziegler
People want, a lot of people want to believe this is true.
- [94:50]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [94:51]
John Ziegler
Both in the media and in the public, they want to believe this is true. They can't get over his weirdness. And, and the, and the media has provided them with a fact pattern that, as I've already stated, can understandably lead someone to have suspicions. But you have to get beyond the surface. And we don't live in a world where substance really matters anymore. Details and facts don't really matter. It's much more about what you want to believe, what you feel. And, and that's why, you know, trials used to be about finding out whether or not the facts were valid and whether or not the story made sense. I'm not sure that's the case anymore. But back in 2005, thanks to Tom Mesereau, that's what happened in this case. And a jury that was not prone to liking Michael Jackson found that none of this had any credibility. And the case hasn't gotten any stronger 21 years later?
- [95:42]
Natalie
No, clearly not. And something, you know, Megyn Kelly last week had this guest on who told a lot of half truths and some untruths as well. I don't expect Megyn Kelly to be the one who is completely familiar and poke holes in them, but the audience certainly did. And so, you know, this continues to be relitigated in a way that just doesn't tell the whole truth. And now Netflix coming up with this documentary. And I guess what they're trying to tell us is that in the year 2026, he might not go free. But I, I would submit if the case was the same, he would, because the, the case was so shit.
- [96:24]
John Ziegler
Oh, let me just address the last point first, but I want to get to Megyn Kelly because I'm fascinated by what's going on. Megyn Kelly, and maybe you can give me some insight.
- [96:31]
Natalie
I don't have, I don't have any personal connections. I'm, I'm watching the, this in the same way, like. Well, why wouldn't she.
- [96:36]
John Ziegler
Yeah, well, I'm going to tell you some things I don't think you know. So, so, but, but to answer your last question first, I actually do think that Michael Jackson would have a tough time being acquitted in 2026 because I think we have changed subconsciously the rules for evaluating these cases so dramatically in the last 21 years that it would be not impossible, but it would be, it would be more difficult. I really do believe that.
- [97:04]
Natalie
Well, the Bill Cosby case is one.
- [97:06]
John Ziegler
Yeah. I mean, so there were many cases where the, the burden of proof, the standard of evidence has gone way down. And I think me too, played a role in that. But anyway, that's a separate issue. Megyn Kelly fascinates me. And I'm someone who used to really like Megyn Kelly. I think I was on her show on Fox News Channel one time, and she seemed to like me. But she's a very smart, very attractive woman with a, you know, with a remarkable history. But she has really frustrated me in recent years on a whole number of issues. But this one really baffles me because I mentioned Brian Friedman previously. So Brian Friedman, you know, saw my work on the Michael Jackson case, asked me to lunch. We had, he asked me to do a few, you know, go down a few rabbit holes for him. In the process of that, he told me that his client was going to publicly defend Michael Jackson against leaving Neverland. That client was Megan Kelly. Now, Brian Friedman is, still, to my knowledge, working on the Michael Jackson estate and is, still, to my knowledge, Megyn Kelly's attorney. So how in the world. This is baffling to me that Megyn Kelly would defend Michael Jackson against leaving Neverland, but now buys in to the these most recent stories and most recent visionist history in a way that makes absolutely no sense to me. I don't know whether or not she and Friedman had a falling out. Is it possible Friedman and the Jackson estate had a falling out? I don't know. But it makes no Sense, logically, it makes no sense from a fact based perspective. And it makes no sense from the personal relationship and connection perspective because it was the, the connection with Brian Friedman, the lawyer, very famous lawyer here in Los Angeles. That was why Megyn Kelly became a Michael Jackson defender to begin with. So I'm completely baffled, Natalie, as to what's going on with Megyn Kelly.
- [98:58]
Natalie
Well, she did a great piece with the lawyer who was misquoted. Is that Brian Friedman in Leaving Neverland, the one who says, we're going to come down on you? Who am I thinking of?
- [99:08]
John Ziegler
That's Mark Garagos.
- [99:09]
Natalie
Right. So he was on her show recently and I thought that was a fantastic piece. Most of what she did recently, it was her guest that had presented.
- [99:20]
John Ziegler
Yeah, but she, the reason, first of all, when you have a guest on, especially when you don't attack them, you're essentially vouching for them. You're, you're, you're giving them a softball treatment because you want their story to be heard by your audience. And that's what she did most recently. And Mark Garagos is a lot like Megyn Kelly all over the map on this case. I mean, okay. I mean, I mean, so I, I don't trust Mark Garagos at all. Maybe Mark Garagos has gotten into Meg and Kelly's head. I don't know. But Mark Garagos is, is no longer a trustworthy or credible person on this case, in my opinion. Opinion.
- [99:53]
Natalie
Okay. And, and one of the things that she went so hard on recently that a lot of the Michael Jackson communities are standing up for is the books that there were these books that were found in Michael Jackson's book cabinet and that they are NAMBLA sponsored books. But I believe the evidence shows that his fingerprints were not on the inside and they were not like shown to the children and that they were a gift from a fan. So can you debunk the bit about the books, Natalie?
- [100:30]
John Ziegler
To me, this is a classic example of what I talked about previously about what kind of evidence should we expect if Michael Jackson was actually guilty. And in comparison to what we actually have, it is very understood that every child sex abuser, you know, serial child sex abuser, has lots of pornography, Lots of pornography. If you know anything about this topic. It's, it's the way law enforcement attacks this. The first thing they do after they get an allegation is they get a warrant for the computer. They get the computer and the phone. Inevitably there's lots of child porn. They charge the child porn and Then they plea bargain on the other stuff. That's the way this happens well over 90% of the time. So they know that they need to come up with something when it comes to child pornography, because why would Michael Jackson not have any child pornography? And they've never found any child pornography. So the best they can do is these two books out of thousands that were found on the Michael Jackson estate, which were commercially and are still commercially available. This is not. It was never deemed to be pornography. The jury at Michael Jackson's trial never felt like it was pornography. It, it is complete, desperate revisionist history to try to claim that, aha, this is the smoking gun. No. Can you use your brain for a second? This, this is, this is consistent with nothing that we know of with regard to child sexual abuse from a serial abuser. There would be massive amounts of unambiguous pornography. The pornography that is found when it comes to a child sex abuser is unambiguous. It is not commercially available, and it is everywhere. They don't have two books. They have it everywhere because it's an obsession that they have. And especially with modern technology, which existed even when Michael Jackson was alive, even in the 2000s. And Michael Jackson had the, the most cutting edge technology there was. I mean, there was, there was, there's video of him and Janet Jackson writing songs on a laptop in the 1990s. So, so if anybody was going to have, have child pornography digitally, it was going to be Michael Jackson. And there's been none of that. And these books don't even come close to the threshold of that. And the jury found that to be the case.
- [102:54]
Natalie
Also, he was famously not very careful with putting passwords on his computers. It was found that There were over 40 logins on his personal computer. So he just let anybody use the computer. He wasn't carefully guarding login with some nefarious information. That would be the profile of someone who is keeping illegal and illicit material. Now, here's where.
- [103:19]
John Ziegler
By the way, by the way, Natalie, by the way, also to your point, Michael Jackson, if he was a criminal mastermind, was the worst criminal mastermind in history. When he goes and tells, goes and tells Martin Brashear with the kids sitting right next to him, that they sleep together in a bed or whatever. I can't remember the direct quote, but that was. And Martin Bashir is a scumbag, an absolute snake. And I think one of the people that should, should not be taken seriously, what he did to Princess Diana should forever discredit everything he's ever done. Including the Michael Jackson interview. But the point is that Michael Jackson did lots of things that were completely inconsistent with someone who was trying to hide the fact that he was a child sex abuser.
- [103:58]
Natalie
Right. Now here's a conspiracy. I've never followed it. It's just something that I'm thinking about. So I don't know. But in the 80s, Victor Gutierrez, who was the tabloid journalism who journalist who really presented a lot of faked and uncredible allegations against Michael Jackson, said that he had gone to a NAMBLA meeting, which is the Man Boy Love association, and that there were people there who were talking about how they really would want a celebrity to represent their cause so that Man Boy Love would be more socially acceptable and that Michael Jackson's name was floated as somebody who they wanted to represent their cause. And then when the allegations came out, NAMBLA spokespeople then said see, this is great. This is what we do. This is fine. The allegations are fine. And so I just wonder if perhaps those books could have been sent on purpose this for that cause, like a planting evidence or planting a seed. And we don't know. This is just my conspiracy. What do you think?
- [105:04]
John Ziegler
You know what that I, I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all. I'm an ardent anti conspiracy person. But that actually makes sense as to how those books got into, I guess you would call it his possession. The one, the article that we've referenced several times with the. The author went on Megan Kelly show. This to me is, is one of the weakest parts of his alleged argument which is somehow that because NAMBLA liked Michael Jackson, that somehow that proves that Michael Jackson was a child sex abuser. It doesn't work that way. Just because, just because, I mean, I mean it doesn't work that way in any way possible form. And it's just baffling to me the lack of, of critical thinking that you're going to claim that somebody is a, is a child sex abuser, which is like the worst thing that we can have in our society today simply because a group of child sex abusers like this person.
- [105:56]
Natalie
What I'm sure a lot of organizations liked Michael Jackson and would have wanted them to speak for their cause. He can't choose everyone. And just because one of them is a horrific platform. There's no evidence that he reached out to nambla. There is evidence that NAMBLA wanted him. So it doesn't have it to be a conspiracy. It's a question question. It's a valid question. And we just don't know I agree with you.
- [106:20]
John Ziegler
I think. I think it's well put. But the bigger picture of that somehow being evidence against Michael Jackson is. Is completely ridiculous. I mean, occasionally we see the KKK endorsing a political candidate. The candidate has nothing to do with them. How does that. How is that relevant to the candidate? It makes no sense logically.
- [106:38]
Natalie
That's a great point. Right. And so it's sort of association by cootie when there's no evidence that Michael Jackson ever had any formal relationship with nambla. But just be. But this was validating for the NAMBLA platform, which is disgusting. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, fans are upset about this documentary, but the problem is people will just buy it. People watch Never Want a Leaving Neverland, and we're like, oh, that's. That's credible. That's too bad. You know, and so what do you make of it? What will. What will come of it? Because Netflix has had some pushback, but will it make a difference?
- [107:20]
John Ziegler
Somewhat optimistic, Natalie, because of the success of the biopic. See, Leaving Neverland hit Michael Jackson at a very vulnerable time period. He had been long dead there.
- [107:34]
Natalie
Yes, it was the height of me, too.
- [107:37]
John Ziegler
Right. And so. So there was a whole series of things that were going on at that time. My Alexa just went off because I talked about leaving Neverland. I have no idea how that happened.
- [107:48]
Natalie
Alexa, not you.
- [107:50]
John Ziegler
I'm sorry about that. Anyway, the point. Okay, here's why I'm somewhat optimistic. Leaving Neverland happened when this was a very vulnerable period and people bought into it. I had friends of mine. I can't tell you, Natalie, how many times Michael Jackson fans who were friends of mine asked me, oh, my God, is this true? And I had to go through piece by piece why this is not true. And thanks to the Michael Jackson fandom, which is amazing, he survived that. But the biopic now looking like it's going to make a billion dollars worldwide, I really do believe essentially makes Michael Jackson uncancellable. Now, look, there are going to be people who will buy this, I'm sure, figuratively or literally, but you're never going to make Michael Jackson commercially unviable again because his biopic just made a billion dollars worldwide. And so essentially, he's untouchable now. He's uncancellable from a financial perspective. And so while I will certainly be one of those that will be very critical of this Netflix show, if it deserves to be, which deserves criticism, which I'm assuming it will, I don't think it's going to have the ability to cancel Michael Jackson like Leaving Neverland almost did, partially because of the success of the biopic.
- [109:11]
Natalie
Well, I really appreciate your context on this, and when it comes out on Wednesday, I don't know if I can stomach it, so maybe I'll just ask you to watch it. I probably will. I don't know. What do you think? Are you gonna watch it?
- [109:24]
John Ziegler
I. I will. I'm sure I will watch it, if only because I feel obligated to do so. But after I do, if you. If you want me to tell you how bad it was, I'm happy to do that as well.
- [109:33]
Natalie
Yeah. Maybe we can take notes together. Okay. Follow John Ziegler at Zigmund Freud on X and other platforms.
- [109:41]
John Ziegler
And also my. My podcast is the death of Journalism.
- [109:45]
Natalie
Oh, great. Okay. It's been a real pleasure to meet you for the first time. I hope you'll come back on redacted anytime, Natalie.
- [109:51]
John Ziegler
Thank you.