← Redefiners
Redefiners
Leading with Faith and Purpose with His Eminence Cardinal Dolan
00:29:21
Leadership is crucial to provide vision, direction, and motivation, guiding individuals and organizations toward common goals and overall success. This is true whether it’s in business, society, or your local community. Today, Clarke Murphy sits ...
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Call them change makers. Call them rule breakers.
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We call them redefiners.
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Hello, everybody. It's Clark Murphy. Welcome back to Redefiners. We appreciate you joining us for this episode. I'm running solo because Marla Oates is traveling, but we're very excited about the episode today and our guest and discussions about leadership, trust, and faith. Before we get started, a quick reminder to our listeners. You can find all the episodes of Redefiners on YouTube, and if you're watching today, just hit that subscribe button. We don't want you to miss an episode. For our audio listeners, don't forget to rate Redefiners. Wherever you get your podcasts, we want your feedback. We'd love to get some questions and suggestions as well. Our guest today is His Eminence, Cardinal Timothy Dolan. Cardinal Dolan is the archbishop of the New York Archdiocese, where he serves 2.8 million Catholics. But not only does he serve the faithful of 2.8 million people, but the infrastructure of the Catholic churches, hospitals, shelters, food pantries, health care. It is one of the more complicated supply chains, if you will, based on spirituality, based on belief and service. We've talked to a number of CEOs around the world where we talk about creating followership, authenticity, belief, trust, and in this case, faith. The complexity of the Catholic Church in New York City could not be underestimated. And he does it with a smile, a light touch. Cardinal Dolan, welcome to Redefiners.
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Clark, I'm the one who's grateful, and you've made me feel at home already.
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Well, thanks for being here. I'm a little intimidated because you've had a podcast for, like, 12 years. It's done very well. So you tell me, how do you ensure there's a good interview on your podcast?
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Well, you know what? I just try to be natural. To tell you the truth, I don't put a lot of long preparation to it. I find that a certain amount of informality and spontaneity usually serves me better than being too structured and too scripted. And then I just wait, as you do, for the customer satisfaction, for them to let me know, hey, we listen to you. Keep it going. And when that comes, I say hallelujah. It's all worthwhile.
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There you go. Well, listen, we always talk about people's background, their career, how they got to where they were. You've served in Rome, Washington, Milwaukee, Missouri, New York City. What are some of the highlights of how you went from one thing to the other? And we try and plan our careers. You get tapped on the shoulder so you can't plan. How do you think about this?
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You got it. You just tapped into something that's rather essential to my vocation as a priest and as a bishop. And that's the obedience that we give ultimately to God, but also to our superiors, in my case, the Holy Father, the Pope in Rome. So it's not that I can chart or plan. And there's a certain amount of freedom and a refreshing amount of liberty, Clark, in that we don't have to make those decisions. I'll tell you a little something. I don't know if I've ever mentioned this before. I was very happy as the Archbishop of Milwaukee. I was there for, what, seven happy years, from 2002 to 2009. And I get a call in February of 2009 from the Papal nuncio. He's the Holy Father's representative here in the United States. And he said, timothy, Pope Benedict wants you to become archbishop of New York. Well, I was a little stunned. And I said, you, Excellency, if you could tell the Holy Father that I'm immensely grateful that I'm humbled by his request, but I'm very happy in Milwaukee. I don't know if I'm the man for the job in New York, and I think you could probably find a better candidate. And the nuncio said, yeah, we know all that, but that's not what I'm asking you. I'm asking, the Pope's asking you to be archbishop of New York. I said, well, count me in. I took a pledge of obedience and I've come to serve, so count me in. I'm kind of glad I did. From the Bible. There's a great kind of encouragement that always keeps me going. The Lord never gives us a call to do something without giving us the grace to do it and the mercy when we fall. And that gives me a lot of consolation, Clark.
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A
Well, that's the support we all need, I think, and particularly the grace to know that we can fall. So you're a leader, but you also have a team. You have to lead to do the things that you need to do for the church to operate the way it needs to operate. And not everything goes according to plan. What's your patience like as a leader? And how do you develop leaders to be good at serving the church and serving the parishioners?
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One of the things from which good leadership flows, Clark, is a sense of humility. I often say to myself and other people, I need all the help I can get. Sometimes I'm afraid people look at the Catholic Church as like this monarchy. And I'm afraid sometimes we bishops have done that in the past. Those days of autonomy, autocracy, one man shows are mostly over, as we bishops have learned, sometimes the hard way. Hey, we're not in this by ourselves. And we need the trust, confidence and collaboration of our people, who themselves are leaders. So the church has always mandated that there would be leadership bodies within the church. For instance, the church would expect that every parish would have a parish council. We expect that every parish has a finance council that would help the pastor stay accountable when it comes to fiscal matters. We set up by law that every parish would have trustees within the archdiocese. Clark. I would have a priest council. I would have a council of women religious, the nuns. I'd have a deacons council. I would have a finance council. I would have a Catholic Charities council. I would have people who are skilled in finances, Catholic charities, education, marriage and family, all of those. And even business stuff. When it comes to insurance, personnel matters, legal matters, I trust those people, darn it. I'm blessed with a great group of leaders who advise me. They bring things to my attention. They have heard me say, and they've heard the Church say, you shouldn't have the final say till you've let the people you trust and with whom you collaborate have their say. I take that very seriously. Clark. I presume that's one of the things you would coach business leaders to do as well. They like a leader who's decisive. They like a leader who's energetic. They like a leader who's ubiquitous. They like a leader who listens. But they also like a leader who collaborates and who. Who trusts other people. I try my best to be that. I'm sure I fail. But boy, oh, boy, it's a goal that I'm not about to give up on.
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So many institutions in the last five to 10 years, people have lost trust in government or businesses or media or whatever it might be. What do you think business leaders can take away from religious leaders about building trust that they'll have faith in their leaders to run something well, to make good decisions, to listen to others, as you say. How can we learn from your lessons and lessons of the Church about building trust?
- [07:28]
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It's good that you would emphasize trust because, as you said, it's in chart supply today. A number of years ago, I was meeting with a politician, and the politician said to me, well, you know, Cardinal Dolan, I hear the people don't trust you bishops anymore. I. And I say Well, I hear they don't trust you politicians either. First and foremost for me is to cultivate the virtue of absolute trust in the Lord. If I'm nurtured with the virtue of hope, which is another word for trust, that he's ultimately in charge, that everything is in his omnipotent plans. If, as St. Paul says in the Bible, everything works together for the good, for those who believe things are going to work out if we trust in him and do our part, the great St. Augustine said, look, if you're in a boat that's starting to sink, well, you pray as if everything depends on God. You row for shore as if everything depends on you. So we have to do our part as well. I presume the people with whom you collaborate and who you try to help through your excellent, your own leadership, they, they, when they talk about trust, they're talking about, I want people to trust me and I want to be able to trust them. I'm saying you're leaving something out. And if you're kind enough to ask my opinion, as many are, work first on trusting in God. If we've got that trust, that's going to give us the confidence to trust other people, which will then earn the their trust in us. We can't take that trust for granted anymore. Now that trust has to be earned and cultivated and never taken for granted.
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Cardinal Dolan, obviously we're in the leadership business. We help our clients and boards of directors choose chief executives. Typically a board is 10, big board, might be 12 people, and they're making a decision about picking a single leader. The selection of Pope Leo. 135 of you speaking 20 languages, and you have to come to a decision. So how you come to the decision, what's that process look like?
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You kind of go in with four or five candidates that you think could, could take the chair of Peter. Now everybody knows about the Conclave. When we go into the Sistine Chapel and when the doors are shut and you don't see us until the white smoke comes up, what they don't know is carefully choreographed. Before that, from the day after the death of the Pope, we cardinals would meet every day. So we're there and we hear one another because every cardinal is invited to, and believe me, we all take that invitation seriously to stand up and address our brother cardinals. We speak about the challenges facing the church and the kind of man that we would need to lead it. After those two weeks, we know each other pretty well. We know the needs of the Church and then the flow of the Conclave as codified over the centuries is also very helpful in the number of ballots, because the first ballot, you would see the top candidates. We want to avoid two extremes. Clark. The Conclave is not like some political convention. No, there's no overt campaigning. There's no promises made. There's no nobody standing up saying, I think I can do it. But there is a lot of conversation. We can speak to one another candidly. Tell me about this man. I'm fascinated by him. He's from the same country you are. And gradually, gradually you come to a consensus. Now I say all that, and I go back to my earlier preachiness. We also trust in the Holy Spirit. I remember in 2013 when we Cardinals were gathering to elect a successor to Pope Benedict, we had a Franciscan priest who came in and kind of gave us a spiritual fervorino, and he looked out to us and he said, cardinals, you're here for a sacred responsibility to elect a new successor of St. Peter. And he said, you're all kind of apprehensive. You're all kind of nervous. You're all sort of anxious. Don't be. The Holy Spirit has already chosen the next pope. Your job is simply to find out who the Spirit has chosen. That's sort of glib. It's a little easier said than done. But there is a kernel of truth there. And all of us afterwards, in those days after the conclave, will kind of speak and describe gentle whispers of the Holy Spirit. So it's kind of a good example of. Of grace and nature. You know, the great theologian St. Thomas Aquinas says, God's grace builds on human nature. So there's a lot of human stuff that goes on at the Conclave, but there's also a lot of grace there. I would. I would think that that would apply to the decisions that our folks have to make, don't you think?
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100%. The Corporation Board of directors says, where's the corporation need to go? And what challenges and opportunities do we have? So what kind of leader do we need to get there? So let's pick the leader. It's the same. It's the same process. We have a lot less grace, I can assure you, than you do.
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And you don't do the white smoke yet, but you're welcome to it.
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All right now we'll try it. We'll try it. See how it goes down in the secular world. So a question we ask every guest in the podcast, in your life or in your vocation, what's your redefiner moment.
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A very defining moment for me as a man, as a priest, as a bishop, as a spiritual leader came when my little niece Shannon, who was 8 years old, developed very aggressive bone cancer. The sadness, the sorrow, the worry, the anxiety, the coming together as a family, the trust that we had in physicians in which we were not disappointed. Medicine and prayer, prayer, prayer, that taught me a lot. I would say there were times that I doubted my faith. I would say there were times when I said, God, are you sure? I trust you with my life and with Shannon's life, but are you sure you know what you're doing? There was some doubt, there was some skepticism there. But ultimately I would say that simple prayer that we often say, Jesus, I trust in thee, and darn it, it paid off. Shannon is now 35, happily married. I often examine my conscience. Clark to say, what if she had died? Would I have lost my trust and my faith? I'm sure I would have been tempted to. I don't think I would have because I would still have said, lord, this wasn't quite the outcome we hoped for, but deep down we believe she's with you and she's cured and she's enjoying eternity and she's waiting for us. So it might not be the easiest way, but we believe she's still alive and that you've healed her in eternity. That was kind of a defining moment for me and that would help me in times of my own trauma and the difficulties that as a leader we all have to bear. Your leaders tell you all the time you have a nice agenda for the day and you're prepared to handle that. You cannot prepare for the crises and they come more frequently than we want. I think that experience was defining a normative for me.
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A
We'll be right back with Cardinal Dolan. But first let's hear from Dean Stamoulis, a leadership advisor at Russell Reynolds Associates who works closely with boards and chief executives. Dean will share insights on why thoughtful succession planning and the responsible transfer of power are essential to long term leadership continuity.
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Few corporate acts are more momentous than selecting a new CEO. Yet too often, succession is treated as a last minute decision rather than a long term responsibility. To better understand how boards are organizing themselves for this critical responsibility, we we asked more than 1,000 corporate directors to share what really happens in their boardrooms. Our research found that many boards believe that they're prepared until they're tested. Only about half say they could confidently name an internal successor if they had to do so tomorrow. We know that the most effective leadership transitions don't happen by chance. They start early with boards taking clear ownership, developing future leaders over time, and and creating space to thoughtfully compare internal and external options. Succession at its core isn't just about choosing the next leader. It's about stewardship, ensuring continuity, stability, and a values based handover of power. To read more about how boards are organizing themselves for this critical responsibility, you can find the full article in our show notes or@russellreynolds.com and now back to.
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Our conversation with Cardinal Dolan. Question for me there are A number of St. Timothy's which saint are you named for?
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Conor Dolan. You're right, there are the kind of epic one would be the disciple of St. Paul. Paul chose a man named Timothy to accompany him on his missionary journeys. It's after him I am named. I have to tell you, when I was in second grade, Sister Mary Bosco, she asked each of us, who's your patron saint? I said, well Sister, I don't know. She said, will you go ask your mom and dad? So I went home and I said, mom, after which St. Timothy am I named? And she said to me, actually you were named after your grandpa. And my dad was sitting there reading the paper and we're talking about his dad. And when my mom said you were named after your grandpa, my dad said, and he ain't no saint. So I learned something from that.
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Well, there you go. Therein lies the beginning of the trouble right there. There you go, last question, which is kind of one of the big ones really. The world. AI, technology, social media, iPhones. What's the role of faith and how do we articulate this? I have my first nieces and nephews. My children aren't married yet. And the world they're going to grow up in is so different and so fast paced and individualistic. What's the voice of faith in a fast moving, changing world?
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Actually more essential than ever. There's a bit of a tendency to say as technology and science advance, the necessity and role of faith diminishes. I think the opposite is true. As the more we see these miracles of science and technology, I hope the more we're moved to praise the God who gave them to us. And faith also teaches us that everything, most almost everything in life is morally neutral. The morality comes in how we use it. Let's take an example of like the splitting of the atom, all right, that's morally neutral. That can be used for good in radiation to destroy a tumor. That can be used for something not so good to destroy human life in nuclear warfare. That applies to technology. Pope Leo, by the way, it's very clear that he is fascinated with technology, especially AI, and, and is frequently speaking about it as not only its threats to human dignity, but also the possibility to enhance human dignity. There it is again. The morality, the ethical characterization of it comes in how we use it. That's true of technology, that's true of AI Clark, although I would agree with you that we seem to be in a particularly dramatic upsurge in technology. We've always worried. I can remember as a kid, so I was born in 1950. Come 1952, 53, TV starts up, and I can remember my grandma saying, these TVs are going to ruin our kids. They're going to spoil them, they're going to ruin their minds, they're going to take their faith away. But in general, no, we kind of learn to live with it and put it into perspective. I think the same is true of technology, especially of AI, because of its novelty. It might frighten us. But I think as we learn how to use it ethically, properly, to enhance human dignity and further the progress of God's creation and God's creatures, we're going to see that there's a lot of good in it.
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Speaking about TV and media, you are frequently on television, on podcasts, online streaming, increasingly asked about current events, politics, government, disease, travel, the world. You have a lot of stakeholders. How do you manage the stakeholders and when to opine on topics? Or do you feel constrained that you shouldn't opine on topics? How do you think about being a recognized leader, that people want to hear your opinion?
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Well, first of all, I'm gratified. I'm thinking, boy, not used to people valuing my opinion or being interested in it. That's why I appreciate this invitation and talking to such a distinguished group of people. But there are times that I would say no. If they're going to ask me on a topic about which I know nothing, or even a topic about which I have some strong feelings but think it inappropriate for me to talk about it, I'll say, thanks for the invite. I don't feel competent doing that. All right. Now, you know the press well enough that when you're on, they're probably going to pop those questions anyway. But at least I've set some guidelines, and at least that gives me the entree to say, oh, thanks, you caught me off guard. I wasn't prepared to talk about it, and I'm not lying. Okay, that's true. More often than not, I'm asked to speak about politics. All right. I will speak on issues. I will speak on principles. I will speak of. Of politics in its most noble understanding, as Aristotle and Plato spoke about it. Service of the common good. You want me to speak on that? Count me in. I will not become partisan and I will not become personal in ever opining about a particular person or a particular political party. I may have an opinion on it. I don't feel it's good for me to say that. Why? Number one, Clark, I'm not an expert. Number two, selfishly, I get in a lot of hot water. And number three, my people have told me they don't like it. They want us to speak on principles, policies. They don't want us to get particular and partisan. Okay. And if I can keep those guidelines in mind, it kind of helps.
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It might be good for a few of us to think the same way. Principles and policies, not partisan comments. There you go. Okay, Colonel Dolan, at the end of every podcast, we have some rapid fire questions. We've not practiced with you before. You have to. Just the lightning round. Here we go. Okay. What's your favorite sports team?
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My favorite sports team is the St. Louis Cardinals, and I'm proud of it. I happen to like the Yankees and Mets and Milwaukee brewers, but I will forever be loyal to my beloved Cardinals.
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Okay, sticking with the theme as we have the Olympics coming up. If you could play any Olympic sport, what would it be?
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I'd love to ski the winter. You're speaking about the upcoming Winter Olympics in. In Italy. I love to ski. I can neither water skiing or snow ski. I have often thought I would love to do snow skiing. It just gives me a sense of exhilaration and freedom when I see those experts do it. And I'd give anything if I could but forget that.
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Well, you're a man of faith. Don't give up yet. Come on. Other than one book, which we would count on, what book have you read that had a profound impact on you?
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It was by Jon Meacham, who's one of my favorite authors. His latest book, Lincoln and Clark, it was almost spiritual reading for me. In fact, at the end, I found myself tearing up. I was so moved by Lincoln. Now I always have been. I try to read everything that comes out of Lincoln, but this one had a particular poignancy and a particular relevance in that so many of Lincoln's virtues and characteristics. I'm thinking, boy, could we use somebody like him today.
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So, next question. What's your favorite comfort food?
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My favorite comfort food would be a bowl of chili and a bacon cheeseburger and an ice cold Budweiser.
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There you go. What piece of advice has stuck with you for years, Timothy?
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God will never ask you to do something without giving you the grace to do it. That gives me tremendous encouragement, hope and trust me.
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And a big one to wrap up. What do you think is the key to living a good life?
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Well, for me, the key to living a good life is to have it grounded in the Lord. We came from Him. We're destined to return to him for all eternity. As the great Augustine said, our hearts are restless, Lord, and they're restless until they return to you for all eternity. He also taught us, if we put absolute trust in any object, any cause, or even any person besides the Lord, ultimately we're going to be let down. That, to me, is tremendously good counsel that I savor and keep at.
- [25:35]
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Cardinal Dolan. Thank you again for being here today. So many lessons and so many parallels to the leadership challenges we think about and the leaders we try and pick with our clients about trust and faith and decisiveness and challenges and solutions. Very much the same of lessons of spirituality or the church itself. You lead because you get great advice and you have consoles of finance or trustees. You have your own cabinet that you think about the operating issues of education and business and insurance and legal or whatever it might be. And so you trust the leaders to give you good advice and to challenge you, which is what great leaders do. Everyone needs to have their say so that we can be decisive. But. But you can't be passive. As you said, leaders need to be decisive, energetic and great listeners. Where there are issues, the organization must find decisiveness and. And have trust that you'll make the right decision. Rowing the boat. Well, faith may head the boat in the right direction. Somebody's got to pull the oars, whether it's in a church or in a company. Your thoughts as a leader of engendering trust so others can develop as leaders, I think is particularly important. And when you've engendered that trust and ability to lead, then they will take risk to go do things and do them on their own. And so cultivating trust can't be taken for granted. Fascinating. When you talk about the Conclave and selecting Pope Leo, you define this group of people that it's not a political convention, but a lot of conversations that develop consensus. You define the challenges of the Church, the needs of the Church, and through conversation, who is the leader best suited to lead? What do we do in picking CEOs with our clients, where does the company need to go and how will it get there in the future? What competencies are needed for that leader to achieve that? And then we go help our clients find that leader. Very, very similar. Your own moment of questioning your faith as we all question at some point our capabilities, our interest, our successes, our failures. But admitting your own crisis of faith as you talked about your niece, Shannon, and that you realize we can never prepare crises. And there are more of them than we think there will be. And that is how we're tested as leaders. And finally, as we think about science and technology and where the world's going. We've had multiple tools and programs throughout history, and everything is morale, neutral morals. Neutral morality is how we use them. Radiation to destroy tumors or destroy life. Whether you have one beer, Cardinal Dolan, or you have eight, it's how you deal with what you're given. And finally, this concept of your approach to speak about principles and policies, not be partisan. A loud world where people want to hear us all talk. Sticking to principles and policies as best we can without becoming partisan. To be a great leader, we agree in taking risk. You won't be asked to do something without being given the grace to do it, or in our world, the tools to achieve it. We have to enable other leaders to be great leaders. So some amazing parallels from the church into our organizations and how we talk about leaders. So thank you for leading. Thank you for being here today and the humor and grace with which you go through every day. You're a great leader. Thank you.