← Redefiners
Redefiners
Redefiners Rewind: Insights and Takeaways from 2024
00:53:20
Leaders have to make tough decisions and overcome adversity, often navigating through uncertainty and challenges along their leadership journeys. In this final episode of 2024, we’ll take a look back at the conversations we’ve had with the incredib...
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- [00:01]
Hoda Tahun
Call them change makers, call them rule breakers. We call them Redefiners.
- [00:06]
Clark Murphy
Join us in conversation with daring leaders.
- [00:08]
Simon Kingston
Who are creating extraordinary impact and driving change from around the globe.
- [00:13]
Hoda Tahun
Each episode gives you a fresh perspective on your leadership and career journey. I'm Hoda Tahun, a leadership advisor at Russell Reynolds.
- [00:21]
Simon Kingston
I'm Clark Murphy, the former chief Executive officer and a leadership advisor, and this is Redefiners.
- [00:30]
Hoda Tahun
Hi everyone, and welcome to our end of Year Reflections episode of Redefiners Season 4. I'm Hoda Tahun, a leadership advisor here at Russell Reynolds Associates. This is one of my favorite episodes of the year. We get to look back through all of the amazing conversations we've had with leaders this past season and highlight the many nuggets of wisdom and insights that our guests have shared. Joining me for this very special episode is my very festive and fantastic co host, Simon Kingston.
- [01:02]
Simon Kingston
Hello, wise and wonderful Hoda. I'm really looking forward to this one because unlike you, I have never done this before. So the chance to review the year and the amazing generosity with their time of such a fantastic array of guests is something I'm looking forward to.
- [01:19]
Hoda Tahun
You are in for a treat, Simon. Our other fabulous co hosts and colleagues, Clark Murphy and Emma Kuhn from the Leadership Lounge are unfortunately not able to join us today, so we'll be carrying on without them and carrying the torch for this episode. Simon, I have faith in us. How about you?
- [01:37]
Simon Kingston
I think we'll do it. I think we'll do it.
- [01:38]
Hoda Tahun
Just a quick reminder to our listeners that you can find all of the episodes for Redefiners and Leadership Lounge on YouTube. If you're currently watching Redefiners on YouTube, please go ahead and hit that subscribe button below as you don't want to miss an episode. And for our audio listeners, don't forget to rate Redefiners wherever you get your podcasts. We would love your feedback. Okay, before we get started, I'd like to take a few minutes to reflect on all of our years. I also find it very helpful to acknowledge what we've accomplished, both professionally and personally, and what we're most proud of. So before we dive into the craziness of what this whole year has brought us, Simon, how about I go first and I share three or four things that I'm most proud of for 2024 and then I hand the baton to you?
- [02:28]
Simon Kingston
Yes, please. Looking forward to it.
- [02:30]
Hoda Tahun
I had the privilege to advise a number of clients this year in hospitality leisure through major organization transformations in a year of unprecedented growth and momentum in the industry. I also had the chance to work with a large number of clients, taking them into new international markets, which was very exciting. I had the chance to volunteer in my local community and for those that are following my tennis game, I finally have a nice spin on my tennis serve. Simon, what are you proud of this year?
- [03:02]
Simon Kingston
Well, Hoda, I can't compete with those accomplishments of yours, but starting with the professional, this year for social impact leaders around the world has also been unprecedented and not altogether in good ways. So it's part of the privilege that we have to advise CEOs and boards on how to navigate some of that turmoil. We have had the great good fortune of being asked to support some of the largest organizations in the global development, advocacy and philanthropy space. So that's been fascinating and humbling and we'll talk a little bit about some of those issues, I think over the next 30 minutes or so. In the rest of my Russell Reynolds life, clearly Redefiners has been a new experience and it's been fantastic to work with you, Hoda, and a little bit with Clark and Emma on that. And in my personal life, the West Cork History Festival 2024 was a great success and the memory that I will hold forever is watching my nine year old son Klezmer dancing with Professor Margaret MacMillan, who's in her early 80s and the two of them were the most improbable dance partners. But it's a lovely image that we have shared since.
- [04:16]
Hoda Tahun
That's amazing, Simon. Thank you for sharing and it's been absolutely wonderful sharing the stage, the podcast stage with you over this last year. And it sounds like a lot has happen for us in 2024 around the world with global leaders throughout the year. And all I have to say is, wow, what a year. The term unprecedented gets thrown out a lot and maybe overused these days, but I think it truly applies to many of the challenges leaders have faced this year in 2024.
- [04:45]
Simon Kingston
I think that's right, Hoda. It has been an extraordinary year and in lots of dimensions it's been unprecedented. If we start with the geopolitical situation in which leaders find themselves. Sadly, the war between Ukraine and Russia continues. There are very little signs of that ending in the very near future. In the Middle east we see conflict in Gaza and Israel. I also think of Sudan, which in scale terms is actually the greatest humanitarian catastrophe of them all at the moment and often is is overlooked. So it's been an incredibly challenging year. And while we talk about leaders and that is our purpose Here the human toll of all of that is heartbreaking when you think about it.
- [05:40]
Hoda Tahun
And Simon, on top of these conflicts, leaders have had to deal with a whole host of climate disasters as well. In fact, I think climate change is certainly causing massive challenges on so many levels. 2024 is on track to be the hottest year on record. And in addition to the immense humanitarian impact, OXERA released a report at the recent COP 29 meeting estimating that climate related extreme weather events have cost the global economy More than 2 trillion over this past decade.
- [06:12]
Simon Kingston
And that of course, is not all that leaders have to face. If one thinks about economic instability, persistent inflation, different though it is in different parts of the world, how to take advantage of technological change and Gen AI in particular, while mitigating the risk and all of the changes and disruptions to global supply chains that have come as a consequence of these different fragmentary tensions. Geopolitical and the extreme weather conditions you've talked about. And that has all been brought into really sharp focus this year in particular by political change. We know that it's been an unprecedented year in that dimension of human life too. 2024 saw more than 70 national elections with almost half the world's population voting on their country's leaders.
- [07:08]
Hoda Tahun
I mean, that is an enormous amount of change for leaders to manage, wouldn't you say, Simon?
- [07:13]
Simon Kingston
Huge.
- [07:14]
Hoda Tahun
And in thinking about all of these issues from a macro level, it's given me a deep appreciation for how leaders constantly have to refine and in some cases redefine their strateg, whether that's their business strategy, their technology strategy, sustainability, or their people strategy. Leaders need to stay on top of what is going on, not only in their business, but around the world.
- [07:36]
Simon Kingston
And of course, redefiners and redefinition of what it means to lead is the business that we're in. And several of our guests this past season talked about the need to stay nimble, to be agile, and to adapt their organization's plans to changing data and information. And that was perhaps the biggest single topic that cropped up in so many of the conversations that we've had the privilege of having. Artificial intelligence and specifically generative AI. Something about which we all knew practically nothing a few years ago and now talk about with varying degrees, it would have to be said, of real knowledge. And that came up repeatedly. It's caused evidently considerable excitement, but also real anxiety for leaders as they work to calibrate what it means for their businesses. And so while the phrase Gen III launched into the world in late 2022 it's become a commonplace in most boardrooms and a business imperative in the course of 2024. And in that time, leaders have had varying success, I think it's fair to say, in their deployment of the technology. Some have sprinted ahead, integrating it into their business, others still struggling to work out what it means for them and still assessing how they should use it.
- [09:03]
Hoda Tahun
And I think regardless of where leaders fall within AI adoption, it's very clear that AI represents a transformative shift in both business and overall society. And one of the guests we had the privilege to speak with this season is truly at the forefront of AI and transformation. Google President and Chief Investment Officer Ruth Peratt, who talked about the immense opportunities AI could provide across a multitude of industries, especially across the healthcare space, in advancing the medical field.
- [09:34]
Ruth Porat
Overall, there are really four primary opportunities with AI. First, very exciting, is advancing the frontiers for science. The second is just the economic uplift that's been estimated to be in the trillions globally. The third is really advancing solutions around some of the biggest social issues facing humanity, around education, health care, climate. And the fourth is really enhancing cybersecurity.
- [10:01]
Simon Kingston
Yes, I was really envious not to be in that conversation.
- [10:04]
Hoda Tahun
It was a really good one, Simon.
- [10:07]
Simon Kingston
And one, as you say, of the industries that Ruth mentioned, is healthcare. And AI clearly has the potential to help discover new drugs and diagnostics for previously incurable or unaddressable diseases, whilst reducing research and development costs. And one of the other healthcare companies which is really tapping into the potential of AI for exactly that purpose is Sanofi. We also spoke to chairman and CEO there, Paul Hudson, and he talked about how his views on AI have developed.
- [10:40]
Paul Hudson
Earlier this season, AI as a disruptor means all at the start gate at the same time redefining how we do almost every industry at speed. And nobody's got the playbook. And so everybody's sat there going, so how do we approach it? Some are in the skeptics, the cybersecurity, others are in the massive opportunity go slow and pilot. And I see it for us in healthcare as the great disruption, the moment where science can get turned on its head. Medicines for undruggable diseases can be discovered using large language models where we can nudge people into better ideas every day, much like when a Netflix show recommends the next show and you surprised you like it. It's AI, but it's, we can have that type of nudging, I call it every day. And we made a decision, I made a decision for the company to be the first healthcare company to be at scale with AI. And so we have 11,000 people every day using AI inside the company. That's a redefining moment for me because I'm not a coder or a mathematician, but I see the opportunity for our company, for science, for our people.
- [11:56]
Hoda Tahun
And Paul certainly looks at AI as a massive disruptor with huge potential when it comes to drug discovery.
- [12:03]
Simon Kingston
Fascinating. As was former CEO of nl, Francesco Starace. And he was perhaps a little bit more subdued in his evaluation of its impact.
- [12:18]
Francesco Starace
First of all, I think that the percentage of people that talk about regenerative, generative AI that know what they're talking about is relatively small. So there's lots of people talking about it, not really knowing exactly what they're talking about. And I'm sorry to say that, but it. It appears like that, but it basically happens every time a new technologies appears. All of a sudden, people talk about it a lot, and then this fades away. So I think this debate will kind of settle gently with less hype and less noise, where it actually belongs. You know, it is an enabler of progress. Yes. Like all enablers of progress, it can be used in a vicious way. Yes. But how many times have we seen this in the past? It's nothing special about this one, too. It's just another one. And I'm sorry to be cynic about this. There will be people using it in a bad way. Yes. Like they did with social media. And technology is just technology. There's nothing wrong with it or bad with it or good with it. It's just the way we use it makes it change.
- [13:31]
Hoda Tahun
You know, Simon, Francesco makes a good point that technology is just technology. It's all in how you use it to innovate and create new products and ways of working to really unleash the potential. Which reminds me of another guest we had the chance to talk to this year who knows a thing or two about innovation. Volvo president and CEO Jim Rowan, who's the former CEO at Dyson and former chief operating officer at BlackBerry. So he's learned firsthand how close collaboration between engineering and design are, how great products are born. He also knows that innovation isn't always a very seamless process.
- [14:09]
Francesco Starace
The funny thing about innovation, the funny thing about creativity is that it kind of looks like it's a linear line. You go from idea to product, and it's a straight line. And it takes a year or seven months or whatever it takes. The strange thing about creativity and innovation is that it's messy. It is extremely messy. And inside the start and finish, there's a lot of conversations, there's a lot of angst, there's a lot of failure, there's a lot of discussion, there's a lot of debate. Sometimes that debate is rather robust. In a funny way, the more messy that is, the better the outcome of the product. At the end of the day.
- [14:47]
Simon Kingston
That was a fantastic conversation with Jim. And regardless of how you view AI, it's clear that it's going to have an enormous impact on all businesses. And it is the next big technology transformation. While it may be challenging for companies to integrate AI into their current operations, leaders can lean on some of the hard earned lessons of the last decade in digital transformation. And we've of course had the privilege of listening to some of those.
- [15:15]
Hoda Tahun
Yes, and one of those key lessons, I think, is that often the technology is not the hardest part to figure out. The bigger challenge where leadership becomes critical is the people part of the equation. Leaders often need to change long standing behaviors and processes to get people to use and partner with AI so that the organization can really realize the benefit and unlock that value creation of the technology investment. And we talked about how leaders need to keep in mind the people aspects of AI in the leadership Lounge this season with Dana Landis, a leadership advisor in our San Francisco office. You also have to think about the people's system because you're leading an organization through a change curve and you've got to bring people along with you. And it's important to understand there's a lot of change fatigue in the system. There's a lot of anxiety and fear. This is a really disruptive technology and people are uncertain about where this is headed. And so leaders who are able to address that and offer real vision and some clarity about where this is all headed helps to unleash some of that interest, curiosity, energy from the rest of the organization. And if you tie that vision to something that people can understand and get behind and rally around and align around, it's much more powerful.
- [16:32]
Simon Kingston
I really liked Dana's term change fatigue. It's a good reminder of the vast amount of change and disruption that both leaders and the teams they lead have had to deal with over this year. And in a world where clearly that uncertainty and continuous change are going to remain the norm, it's vital for leaders to provide clear guidance and to model consistency in their behavior with their teams. You and Clark had a chance to talk about this to LA Rams COO Kevin Demoff, who had a pretty clear way of describing how he thinks about this aspect of his leadership.
- [17:11]
Clark Murphy
But I Always think one of the things. This is true both in sports and I think across the board. As a leader, your most important quality is your consistency. When people come to you, they have to know how you make decisions, how you're going to handle it emotionally, and how you're going to approach the problem solving that comes to your desk with a consistent manner because that allows them to know how they bring you problems, how you're going to try to solve them, how you frame them and how they should go attack the problems. I think if you're a leader and you're wildly emotional, wildly inconsistent in how you approach problems, it meet, it leads to a building that is emotional and inconsistent. That's the worst thing you can have. Passion should drive you, but consistency is going to what's is going to be what makes you better each day.
- [17:55]
Hoda Tahun
That was such a great conversation with Kevin and I really remember him talking about passion and consistency and consistency being a key driver for leaders. Today's leaders are challenged more than ever to stay consistent in a very fast changing business landscape with new issues, expectations and quarterly financial pressures to contend with. And we already mentioned AI, but there are certainly many other things that we mentioned earlier. Sustainability, political change, the list goes on. And embracing that complexity and uncertainty has become table stakes now for leaders as they determine the best ways to be future ready and to try to future proof their business.
- [18:37]
Simon Kingston
And that reminds me of something Google President and Chief Investment Officer Ruth Porat said in your conversation. She's led through lots of change and adversity in two very different industries. Not only has she seen the challenge of that leadership in the tech industry, but before joining Google, she was CFO as she reminded us of Morgan Stanley during the financial meltdown of 2007, 2008. So she knows more than most of us about leading through real turmoil. Ruth shared three very hard earned lessons that she keeps coming back to both in good times and in bad.
- [19:17]
Ruth Porat
The first is that it is imperative for each of us as leaders to identify our greatest source of vulnerability early and fortify against it. For a bank, one of the most important things that one needs is to have liquidity to keep your operations moving. It's really liquidity. When you get choked with lack of liquidity, that's what leads to the demise. And in that moment, in that fall, there was nothing a bank could do to really get that liquidity needed, whereas six months prior it would have been easy to do and not very expensive to do so. The second really important lesson is something that Secretary Paulson said to Me during the crisis, which is you need to have the will and the means. And too often, by the time you have the will, in other words, the political will, you no longer have the means, the financial means. And I think each of us can think of times as we've been leading where you delay making the tough call that you need to make. It becomes that much more expensive later and sometimes impossible to even grapple with and handle. The magnitude of the. And the third very important one is you need to develop a team, pull together a team that brings in the requisite experience. I keep saying I need two things. I want to have horizontal vision, connect the dots to all of the related issues. And you also want people who have instinct based on experience.
- [20:44]
Hoda Tahun
You know, it was really amazing to hear Ruth's story. And her experience leading Morgan Stanley out of the financial crisis clearly had an impact on how she leads to this day at Google. When I hear Ruth's comment about developing teams with the right experience, I think of Clark's conversation this past year with sailing world record holder Dee Khafari. Dee's the only woman to have sailed solo nonstop around the world in both directions and has sailed around the world six times. In her conversation with Clark, she talked about the leadership lessons she learned in her first around the world sailing opportunity with a crew.
- [21:23]
Dee Khafari
So I was taking on my first round the world, responsible for the boat and more importantly, responsible for the 17 people that had paid for the experience to be there. So it's a massive responsibility and you're out in the middle of the ocean, so you can't. It's not easy to get advice. You don't really have that support network there. Everyone's looking at you. Through naivety, I think back then I was unaware of the skills required to lead a team, and it was probably my biggest learning curve there. I naively thought at the beginning that I needed to be everyone's friend. And I learned two lessons. One, it's pretty lonely at the top, and that's why you paid the bucks to make the big decisions that not everyone's going to agree with. And you have to make those difficult decisions that not everybody agrees with and take responsibility and own them.
- [22:13]
Simon Kingston
Dee's right, of course, although she didn't tell us what it was she was looking for as she sailed around the world six times. But leaders, whatever they're up to, need to make difficult decisions all the time. And to do that, they need to understand not just the commercial context, the markets, the sectors they serve, but the people in their Organizations. Emma and I spoke to president and CEO of Waste Management, Jim Fish. And he talked about an unusual way in which he connected with his people and how that helped him to understand what his teams go through day to day.
- [22:48]
Paul Hudson
I think understanding what they go through every day, maybe. The one story I'll tell you is about riding on the back of a truck outside of Pittsburgh at 2:00 in the morning when it was 10 degrees below zero. To help me understand, for example, why productivity might suffer in the middle of January. Because you've got three feet of snow, and when you're picking up a street that has bins on the street, they might put that bin on top of the mountain of snow, they might put it behind it. And so I pretty quickly understood, gosh, now I understand why productivity is a bit lower in January than it is in July. So you learn those kinds of things. But maybe most importantly gave me an opportunity to meet people. And that's just something I enjoy doing.
- [23:32]
Simon Kingston
If you remember, Hoda, another leader we spoke to this year whose organization is very obviously driven by empathy and compassion is the president and Chief executive of the International Rescue Committee, David Miliband. And in addition to discussing the breadth and range of the crises that he and the IRC team are actively involved in, he also talked about the importance of strategy for a leader. Clarity of strategic direction is as vital, if not more vital, for nonprofits as it is for profit organizations. The era of the headless heart is over. And David really demonstrated that when he talked about his use of strategy to prioritize how the IRC's inevitably limited resources are allocated. When they face the challenges they do, survival comes top.
- [24:28]
Paul Hudson
But I'm also very committed to the idea that if the humanitarian sector just chases its tail, if it neglects innovation, it's never going to succeed. So we try to work for the medium term, not just the short term. I think that's part of what it means to be strategic. I'm a great opponent of the idea that culture eats strategy for lunch. And I'm a great opponent of the idea that strategy is only something for corporate boardrooms, not for NGOs. I think good strategy is about what you're trying to do and how you're trying to do it. And my view is that we're stronger for being a strategy led organization.
- [25:06]
Hoda Tahun
You know, David and his team at the IRC operate on the front lines of active humanitarian crises. Dealing with and mitigating risk are part of their daily jobs. And risk is also something that global leaders across Industries need to navigate. This past year brought a lot of risk and uncertainty due to an unprecedented number of national elections. We mentioned earlier, 2024 saw almost half of the world's population go to the polls to vote for their national leader. That's a lot of potential geopolitical change happening in just one year. And for any leaders who perhaps were not paying attention, this year, likely encouraged them to change that. Strateg former president of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, talked about this when we asked how leaders are thinking about geopolitical risk today.
- [25:56]
Jose Manuel Barroso
Business leaders, they are giving a much higher level of importance to geopolitical risk. I mean, for instance, I was in Davos, as I've been for many years, going there. And I mean, before we speak about many kinds of operational risk, market risk, potential risk, all kinds of risk, but geopolitical risk was not top of mind. Now it is top of mind. Yes, because for instance, if you have any coupling like what happened between the United States and Europe on one side and Russia on the other side after the Ukraine invasion by Russia, if something like that could happen with China, it will be of course, radical change because China is one of the biggest economies in the world. So in fact now the way people are assessing risk in terms of supply chains, also in terms of investment flows, is very different the way they were looking at it, let's say, say two or three years before.
- [26:52]
Simon Kingston
Geopolitical risk then is certainly at the top of the agenda for a great many leaders today. But we can't talk about risk without also talking about trust. And that was another topic we covered this year. As we all know, trust is a critical component of leadership and it's vital to the success of any organization. But as people wrestled with worries about economic instability, job reductions and increased polarisation socially in 2024, that need for trust was demonstrated on multiple levels. As organizations look to their leaders to navigate through uncertainty and change, how are leaders going about building that all important asset? President and CEO of the International Rescue Committee David Miliband had a very clear and very simple answer when we asked him about how he does it with the IRC's clients and with the partners with whom they deliver their programs.
- [27:51]
Paul Hudson
I want to give a very simple answer to that which is not intended to be glib. It's to do what we say. The biggest eroder of trust is whether what you say and what you do are not in line. And so when I say we want to treat our partners as experts, who we are in alliance with, the tell is whether or not you do that. When I say that we want to ask our clients what they think and we want them to be able to report when things are wrong. If they don't, or if we don't react properly or we don't allow them to, then that's the trust eroder. In the end, the biggest eroder of trust is whether words and deeds are aligned or misaligned. And that's how we build trust.
- [28:34]
Hoda Tahun
Say what you do and do what you say. That's advice many of us heard from our parents and teachers growing up. But it still holds true for CEOs. And this is especially true for CEOs who are new to the role. As building trust is critical in that first year, transitioning into the CEO role can be a challenge and there are various paths to the top. Some of the CEO transitions are expected and planned in advance, while others are unexpected due to sudden and unforeseen circumstances. Let's talk about the planned CEO succession first. Wells Fargo President and CEO Charlie Scharf came into the role at a very challenging time with the bank in 2019. The bank was dealing with a fallout from a scandal. Customer trust was very low and he had to quickly get a handle on it and deal with it fast. Here's how he approached that CEO transition.
- [29:24]
Simon Kingston
What I find when I talk to.
- [29:26]
Clark Murphy
People internally is sometimes people get confused between really good management and leadership.
- [29:31]
Simon Kingston
Right? Those two things are very different. And as you become more senior, you really can't be just a great manager.
- [29:38]
Clark Murphy
Without becoming a very strong leader.
- [29:41]
Simon Kingston
So to me, the first thing I did was made it very clear to people.
- [29:45]
Clark Murphy
First of all, I've got a huge amount of respect for what was built before me. You can't just point out the problems.
- [29:51]
Simon Kingston
And talk about all the things that have to change.
- [29:52]
Clark Murphy
You have to win people's hearts and.
- [29:53]
Simon Kingston
Minds and to make people fully understand that you know what they've done that's done so well.
- [30:00]
Clark Murphy
You have to know what they've built and then you transition to okay, but having said that, we're not where we need to be.
- [30:06]
Simon Kingston
By contrast is the challenge of the unexpected CEO transition. Marriott President and CEO Tony Capuanu talked about his very sudden transition to the CEO role after their iconic leader Arne Sorensen passed away. Not only did Tony have very quickly to make the transition into the CEO role himself, whilst in the midst of the pandemic, he was also wrestling with the natural emotions of mourning a beloved leader and friend, both for his team and for himself. He shared with us some of the advice he was given then I told.
- [30:42]
Clark Murphy
You I was announced as the next CEO on a Monday morning that Sunday evening, Mr. Marriott called to tell me the board had appointed me as CEO. And as is always the case, he gave me incredibly powerful wisdom that evening. Evening and he said to me, no one wishes more than me that I could ask the world to stop spinning for a few weeks so that we could appropriately grieve the loss of our friend. He said, and you are going to have to figure out a way somehow not to ignore those emotions. They are natural and appropriate emotions, but to compartmentalize them a bit. And the reason you have to do that is tomorrow morning 800,000 people are going to wake up and put on a Marriott name badge and they're going to look to you to lead them out of this existential crisis that the pandemic has represented. And the gift he gave me that evening was a way to sharpen my focus on the task ahead.
- [31:52]
Hoda Tahun
Although Charlie and Tony had very different CEO transitions, both certainly felt the immense weight as they stepped into the role. Which reminds me of one of our Leadership Lounge episodes where we talked about this challenge and how to nail their first year in the role.
- [32:06]
Simon Kingston
It's certainly not easy being a CEO. In fact, it's the most challenging role in the business and the loneliest. The scope, gravity, responsibility, accountability and exposure of the CEO role is unparalleled. Yet despite that complexity, it's often hailed as the most rewarding and life affirming move of your career. To set yourself up for success, a new CEO needs to approach the first few days and months very carefully and with a fair amount of empathy, both for yourself and the people you now lead. But one thing to remember is something Ty Wiggins shared in that episode. Ty is a leadership advisor in our London office and he interviewed top CEOs around the world for his book the New CEO Lessons on How to Start well and Perform Quickly. What he learned is that no CEO transition is perfect.
- [33:00]
Clark Murphy
The reflection that I hear the most from CEOs I work with is that you cannot move quickly enough on your top team. In our recent research, 68% of CEOs said that this was their top transition. Regret that they didn't move faster on making changes and building their top team. Often CEOs know what changes they should make, but they wait to give the people in the organization more time. And then in hindsight, what this does is create more issues and it delays both the CEO and the organization from being able to perform. Where CEOs that I speak to and work with, are happy with how quickly they move. They usually work to the following plan. They took the first month to really assess the team. In the second, they decided how the team should be structured and who should be on it. And in the third, they started to make their changes.
- [33:48]
Hoda Tahun
Ty had some great advice there. Leaders have to make decisions big and small all the time, whether it's in your first year or 10th year. TCW President and CEO Katie Koch talked about this and had a really clear way of looking at the challenge of making tough decisions decisions as a CEO.
- [34:06]
Ruth Porat
One phrase that someone gave to me that I I think about a lot is tough decisions, easy life, easy decisions, tough life. So one of the ways that I kind of gear myself up to make those difficult decision is first of all, always putting at the center of everything, like, what's the right thing for tcw? That's something I learned, by the way, at Goldman Sachs from one of my mentors, Stephen Share, who used the term industrial logic. Like, if you're coming at it from the place of like, what's the right thing for the company and the cl, you'll end up with the right decision more often than not. Of course you're gonna get some things wrong, but you'll be trending in the right direction.
- [34:42]
Simon Kingston
Katie talked about the value of learning from mentors and integrating their advice into your own leadership style.
- [34:49]
Hoda Tahun
Yes, the data certainly backs up the critical role mentors play to leaders and their organizations. According to CEO data from Harvard Business Review, 84% of CEOs credited mentors with helping them avoid costly mistakes. 71% said company performance had improved, and 69% said they were better at making decisions. For Tony. He had a great relationship with his CEO, Arne Sorensen, and learned a lot from his many years working with him and others on the team. For others, they may need to search out a mentor who is best suited to propel them forward for professional and personal success. Simon Elliott, a leadership advisor in our London office, had some great advice here, here.
- [35:34]
Simon Kingston
I always recommend that industry experience is probably the least important quality to finding a mentor. I think it's more important that you find a mentor who's actually faced the same challenges as you are facing in your role. And so when we identify mentors, we really want to get an understanding of what have they faced in their careers and how can we actually use those experiences of a mentor to support a leader who's actually facing similar challenges and really match that to what the mentee is looking for. What are the challenges in the mentee's job. And clearly, chemistry's got to be right. Both mentor and mentee have got to feel as though they can work very effectively together. They've got to feel as though they can express themselves, that they can trust each other. They can be critical friends in many ways. Another challenge leaders grappled with in 2024 was how or whether to respond to a number of social issues amid an increasingly polarized world. Today, CEOs aren't just trusted to deliver profits. They're expected to have an informed point of view on key issues that society is wrestling with. And society often puts a great deal of trust in what they say. Surprisingly to some, in fact, the Edelman Trust Barometer continues to find that business leaders are seen as the most trusted group in society, ahead of media, ahead of politicians, and as they say in the Spider man movies, with great power comes great responsibility.
- [37:02]
Hoda Tahun
Adding to the complexity, leaders have to decide when is the right time to speak out on these issues. Richard Davis, a leadership advisor in our Toronto office and author of Good Judgment, talked about that and the mistakes leaders sometimes make when it comes to timing.
- [37:17]
Clark Murphy
Really, There are probably two errors that I see CEOs make speaking too soon and improperly using social media when something bubbles up a geopolitical event or domestic situation or some judicial ruling that causes social unrest. I've seen too many CEOs quickly jump on X and make a 280 character tweet. Speaking out when you are emotional about something, absolutely fine. But in my view, you should avoid doing so purely out of emotions. You need to speak from the heart and the head. Take a breath, wait for sufficient facts to emerge, and speak to people who know more about the issue than you do. Then, and only then, should you craft a statement. Again, speaking from the heart if or.
- [38:03]
Simon Kingston
How leaders respond has a major impact on talent acquisition and retention. A poll conducted by business.com earlier this year showed that 75% of employees expected their employer to take a stance on social issues, showing just how important that is. We had a few leaders talk about this on Redefiners as well. Laram CEO Kevin Demoff talked about how and when leaders should respond to social issues.
- [38:29]
Clark Murphy
One of the I think the hardest parts now from a leadership perspective when you run an organization is, you know, anytime there's a flashpoint in your community, in the world, how quickly you're expected to go make a statement, you know, you know. And I think one of the best things you can do as a leader sit down with your group, understand the viewpoints of your people, who's involved, who are your customers involved, your fans involved, you know, and which of your employees really are passionate. Understand those viewpoints. Like, ultimately, you don't have to weigh in on everything. And I think that's one of the hard parts now. And I think it's training your staff that we get get involved in issues that matter to us, to our fans, to our people. But I also think one of the things is it's okay to take a little bit of time and make sure what you say is what you mean or right. You don't have to be first, but you do have to be authentic, and you do. And it does have to be poignant and meaningful. Not everybody in your building is going to agree, and not all of your customers are going to agree. You just have to be able to explain your why. But ultimately, I would say if you're doing things right every day, people should understand exactly where you're going to wind up on most issues. Right? And I think that to me, is the consistency we go back to of how you run your building, how engaged you are in your community.
- [39:48]
Simon Kingston
And this issue is not limited to any one country or region. Former president of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, took a look at this from a global perspective and he had this to.
- [40:00]
Jose Manuel Barroso
That's a very difficult issue because of course, for business leaders, what is important is of course, to maximize profit, and that's what they are paid for by their shareholders. And as I say, no, we have a global responsibility. I believe both. We need both. I believe if you are a leader of a company, of course you have to maximize revenue for your shareholders. At the same time, I think we need leaders to assume their social responsibility because we are, in fact, in the defining moment of our societies for the reasons we have been discussing, from demographic trends to the climate challenge to war that is going on in some parts of the world, including in Europe, we need to have the courage of those who are in some position of power, be it political power, be it intellectual power, be it corporate power. They have the platform to communicate and to share their vision. And I think if they do it with balance and intelligence, of course, I think that their voices will be heard.
- [41:10]
Simon Kingston
Sage advice that from a leader who has experience leading in both public and private, and indeed public private sectors.
- [41:18]
Hoda Tahun
Another big issue that impacts both the public and private sectors as well as social impact is sustainability, of course. And when you look at sustainable leaders who have truly transformed their business, you have to go back to Francesco Starace. In addition to Being former CEO of nl, Francesco served on the Board of Sustainable Energy for All the Science Based Targets initiative as well as the UN's Global Compact. Enel's transformation into one of the world's largest renewable energy producers didn't happen overnight. Francesco talks about a key decision that helped everyone on the team get crystal clear on their transformation and growth process.
- [41:58]
Francesco Starace
So we took a decision that was kind of epic, that was saying we would never put our money invest in anything that would take more than three years to be completed. And then that decision was key because it eliminated a lot of technologies that didn't fit in that. So we did not have a discussion about why this technology is good or bad. Does it fit in three years, yes or no? It doesn't out.
- [42:26]
Simon Kingston
I really liked Francesco's three year decision criterion. Not only does it help focus the team to make investment decisions, it also provides a clear end date for everyone, including your board. But just because Francesco had a clear time window to complete a project, it doesn't mean it was easy. And that's where the resilience part comes in. One of our Redefiners guests this season talked about resilience, especially when it came to their iconic founder of the company, Jordan Brand president Sarah Mensah talked about how NBA legend Michael Jordan epitomized resiliency in both his on court play and off court business ventures.
- [43:04]
Ruth Porat
Because at the end of the day, this is the thing that's so incredible about Michael Jordan is that it's the audacity to continue to believe in yourself. It's the audacity to continue to keep trying. It's the, it is the courage to believe that when you keep taking shots that eventually that's going to go in. And I think that's why MJ and this brand has resonated so far.
- [43:39]
Hoda Tahun
And since we're talking about legendary athletes, I have to go back to something. Sailing legend D. Cufari said for those who want to push themselves harder than they ever have, have to achieve a goal, as Dee did multiple times, she shared some great advice about taking that first step.
- [43:55]
Dee Khafari
Don't overthink it and surround yourself with people that support you getting there or want you to achieve. Because it's really hard to do stuff on your own. You need a network of people that are gonna you can draw on to help you get there. And I think once everybody is around you, you suddenly look and you think, well they all believe in me, so I need to believe in myself. And it does help your self belief and your self confidence and then you've committed to it. So you're like, I like to say I'm tenacious. Other people would say I'm stubborn, but I'm definitely not going to let myself down once I've committed to it and I find the other thing, if I put it out there, if I say it out loud, it becomes real. If it's just a inner dialogue in your mind, you can talk yourself out of it because no one knows. So you don't have to admit failure. But if you put it out there, then you kind of got to find the pathway to get yourself there.
- [44:49]
Simon Kingston
Some of us may have been pushed or prodded into a career direction early on in our careers, which may have worked out well for some and not so well for others. Natalie Robin talked about that experience in her own career and her response was really insightful. For those listeners who may be considering a role about which they have doubts.
- [45:10]
Ruth Porat
I remember when I was looking at one point to say, well, you know, I'd like to now I think I'm ready. I've been working on the commercial side, on the sales side. I'd like to go into a market as a managing director, run the P and l be responsible for the operations there. And getting a lot of, well, you know, we got some. The marketing division that's looking for additional people and maybe in communications, I was saying, well, I don't really have that background at all. I know, but it fits perfect. And at one point, you know, it would have been pretty easy to just say, well, okay, yeah, I guess that's probably where I should go. And I just remember reflecting over it and saying, well, no, actually that's, that's not what I want to do. And if that's not available here, then I'll go somewhere else. And I did, and I went somewhere else and, and found my path. So I think that's something that was pretty pivotal, is that I had the courage to just kind of push back for what I wanted.
- [45:54]
Hoda Tahun
TCW Group President and CEO Katie Koch got some terrific advice at an early age from her mom that helped drive her career decisions.
- [46:03]
Ruth Porat
She would say to us, well, what decision would you make if you knew you wouldn't fail? And that that was very important for me growing up because I was kind of like a perfectionist and risk averse and I only wanted to try things I knew I would succeed at. And that framing allowed me to come at the world instead of from a place of scarcity or a place of fear, actually a place of optimism and abundance. And it allowed me to take chances and risks that I otherwise wouldn't have taken.
- [46:30]
Simon Kingston
And for those of our listeners whose hope and resilience was tested this year, and my goodness, I think it was for most of us, we'll leave you with this message from David Miliband. As we've mentioned, his teams at the IRC are at the very sharp end of the humanitarian crises that disfigure our world and its people. So he knows a lot about hope.
- [46:56]
Paul Hudson
Hope is not a strategy. It is a matter of temperament. And I think you can either fuel hope or. Or drain hope. I gave a lecture in Cambridge in November where I tried to address the question I'm asked endlessly, which is, how do your teams stay hopeful or optimistic in the face of all the crisis they've faced? And I confessed, I give the same answer every time. I'll give the same answer to you, which is, if you look at the statistics, you get depressed. If you look at the people, you have hope.
- [47:24]
Hoda Tahun
Look at the people and you'll have hope. And we can always use a bit more hope as we start the new year. Before we wrap up, as our listeners know, we like to end each episode with rapid fire question. We've been asked by the Redefiners team to once again put ourselves in the shoes of our guests to see what it's like from their side of the conversation. With that, we're going to change it up a bit and Simon and I are going to pose a few rapid fire questions to each other. Simon, are you ready?
- [47:55]
Simon Kingston
I am.
- [47:56]
Hoda Tahun
All a quiver, Hoda, as you should be. All right, I will ask the first question. As we're in the holiday season, what is your favorite holiday movie?
- [48:10]
Simon Kingston
My favorite holiday movie is Blimey. What is my favorite? Actually, it's nothing to do with holidays.
- [48:19]
Hoda Tahun
What is it?
- [48:20]
Simon Kingston
I just love the Italian Job.
- [48:21]
Hoda Tahun
Oh, it's a good film.
- [48:23]
Simon Kingston
I watch it at Christmas, although it has nothing to do with Christmas.
- [48:26]
Hoda Tahun
Do you have it as a tradition, though?
- [48:27]
Simon Kingston
It is a bit of a tradition, yes.
- [48:29]
Hoda Tahun
Okay, well, there you go then. Okay.
- [48:31]
Simon Kingston
Continuing our holiday trend, what is your favourite holiday food, Hoda?
- [48:37]
Hoda Tahun
Oh, this is so good. So I love all holiday food, but if I had to pick one, I would say pumpkin pie.
- [48:44]
Simon Kingston
Lovely. Nutritious.
- [48:46]
Hoda Tahun
Well, not one bit, but it is very yummy. Simon, if you could travel anywhere in the world, where would you want to ring in the New Year?
- [48:56]
Simon Kingston
I can honestly say I want to ring in the New Year in West Cork, which is where I'm going to do it.
- [49:02]
Hoda Tahun
Oh, that's lovely.
- [49:04]
Simon Kingston
In how many languages can you say Happy Holidays? And we'd like to hear them, please. So don't over claim what? Yes.
- [49:16]
Hoda Tahun
Confidently. I would say three.
- [49:19]
Simon Kingston
Go for it.
- [49:20]
Hoda Tahun
So I would say Happy Holidays in English, Kulasana wintutayyebin in Arabic and Feliz Navidad, which is really Merry Christmas in Spanish, but I think it sort of encompasses Happy Holidays.
- [49:35]
Simon Kingston
Well, to give you a fourth Naleg hanna gric in Irish.
- [49:40]
Hoda Tahun
Well. Oh, I love that. Well, thank you, Simon.
- [49:44]
Simon Kingston
You learn something, an additional something every episode.
- [49:48]
Hoda Tahun
Simon, what is one of your goals for 2025? It can be a personal goal or a business one. Your Choice.
- [49:56]
Simon Kingston
It's both. 2025 will be the opening of a new chapter for me as I step down from co leading the bit of the business I've led up to. Now there's a real chance to do some new things with the leaders we advise. So I'm looking forward to that.
- [50:11]
Hoda Tahun
I can't wait to hear all about it.
- [50:13]
Simon Kingston
Hoda, the same question for you. What is one of your goals for 2025?
- [50:17]
Hoda Tahun
Well, you know, I am really excited to continue a lot of the advisory work that we do for our clients because it gives us the chance to be very bespoke, very tailored in how we deliver very high quality advisory services that span beyond just traditional searches, which is what I think we used to be known for.
- [50:38]
Simon Kingston
Long may it continue.
- [50:40]
Hoda Tahun
Well, we survived the rapid fire questions once again. Well done, Simon.
- [50:44]
Clark Murphy
Thank you.
- [50:45]
Hoda Tahun
And I have to stay. I still prefer being the one asking the questions instead of answering them.
- [50:51]
Simon Kingston
Me too. Me too.
- [50:53]
Hoda Tahun
That wraps up season four of Redefiners. As we come to the end of the year, hopefully we all come away a bit wiser, a bit more hopeful and a lot more grateful for friends and loved ones. And in the spirit of gratitude, thank you, Simon, for being such a wonderful partner and co host on our Redefiners journey.
- [51:13]
Simon Kingston
Thank you, Hoda. I hope I've got the job. Thank you for being a very generous and gentle guide in my first attempt at this.
- [51:22]
Hoda Tahun
You did wonderfully. We also wanted to thank our colleague Clark Murphy for his curiosity and resilience in co hosting Redefiners for the past four years, as well as Emma Kuhn for her hosting expertise with Leadership Lounge.
- [51:36]
Simon Kingston
They are wonderful colleagues to have and to learn from. And we should also give a huge shout out to the production team and crew here at Redefiners and at Leadership Lounge. You're amazing. Thank you.
- [51:47]
Hoda Tahun
And thank you to all of the leaders who took the time to join us on Redefiners. We're incredibly grateful to have had the opportunity to speak with each of you and to have such amazing, thoughtful and authentic leaders and change makers. We've learned from and have been inspired by each conversation we have had throughout this past year.
- [52:05]
Simon Kingston
And last but certainly not least, a huge thank you on behalf of all of us at Redefiners and Leadership Lounge to our amazing listeners for joining us on this journey on which we embarked, exploring how global leaders are redefining what it means to be a leader in today's increasingly complex world.
- [52:27]
Hoda Tahun
And we have more remarkable guests, inspiration and leadership insights already in the works for Leadership Lounge and Season 5 of Redefiners starting in January 2025. Be sure to follow or subscribe so you don't miss an episode however you celebrate them.
- [52:43]
Simon Kingston
We wish you and your families a safe, happy and healthy holiday time. See you all in January.
- [52:51]
Hoda Tahun
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Redefiners. For more compelling insights from leaders across industries and around the world, listen to Redefiners wherever you get your podcasts.
- [53:01]
Simon Kingston
To learn more or get in contact with us, follow Redefiners podcast on Instagram, find Russell Reynolds Associates on LinkedIn X and YouTube, and visit our website@russellreynolds.com.