Barbara Daly Baekeland: Maternal Incest & Murder | #455

Summary

---

RedHanded Podcast Episode #455

"Barbara Daly Baekeland: Maternal Incest & Murder"

Release Date: June 18, 2026

Hosts: Hannah and Gail

---

Episode Overview

In this chilling and deeply disturbing episode, Hannah and Gail unravel the tragic and scandalous story of Barbara Daly Baekeland—a glamorous American socialite who was murdered by her own son, Tony Baekeland, in London in 1972. The podcast explores the toxic dynamics of an ultra-wealthy family that was beset with mental illness, entitlement, obsession, and, shockingly, allegations of maternal incest used as a form of twisted ‘conversion therapy.’ The episode delves into how unchecked privilege, generational trauma, and entwined pathologies combined to create a perfect storm of tragedy.

“This is a case that makes Mummy Dearest sound like a bedtime story.” – Gail [02:46]

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Baekeland Family and the Invention of Plastic

• Bakelite Dynasty: The family’s enormous wealth came from Leo Hendrik Baekeland’s 1909 invention of Bakelite, the world’s first fully synthetic plastic, laying the foundation of immense privilege across generations [03:51].
• Glamorous Isolation: Barbara’s beauty and charm allowed her entry to New York high society, but she and her mother Nene were ambitious social climbers, leveraging Barbara’s looks for social advancement [12:30].

2. Barbara Daly’s Troubled Origins

• Tragedy and Mental Health: Barbara’s childhood was marred by her father’s suicide, which led to a windfall in insurance money but also left deep psychological scars. Both she and her brother later suffered mental health crises [08:55].
• Diagnosis & Treatment: She was treated by Dr. Foster Kennedy, a radical psychoneurologist who diagnosed her with schizophrenia—a frequently misplaced diagnosis at the time [09:47].

3. Marriage to Brooks Baekeland

• Calculated Union: Barbara maneuvered herself into marrying Brooks, the Bakelite heir, by faking a pregnancy—a manipulation that set the tone for the marriage [17:39].
• Toxic Relationship: The couple were glamorous but deeply volatile, with public arguments and mutual infidelities [19:52].
• Notable Quote:

  “He had not married a soulmate, but a powerful and ambitious antagonist.” – Brooks Baekeland, on discovering Barbara’s deception [17:39]

4. Tony Baekeland’s Troubled Upbringing

• Golden Child: Tony was treated as a showpiece, paraded by his parents for their social set but left emotionally neglected, especially by his father [23:22].
• Intellectual and Emotional Confusion: Tony was given inappropriate literature (Marquis de Sade at age 12) and pushed into artistic and academic pursuits regardless of his wishes [30:09].
• “Enmeshed Relationship”: Tony’s close attachment to his mother became a classic case of spousification or emotional incest, intensified after Brooks left the family [39:35].

5. The Descent into Madness and Abuse

• Escalating Control: Barbara became obsessed with Tony’s sexuality, attempting to dictate or ‘cure’ it through extreme measures, including hiring sex workers and, ultimately, through direct sexual abuse [41:09, 42:37].

• Maternal Incest:
  The hosts assert that Barbara raped her own son as a form of conversion therapy—a crime she discussed brazenly with friends, shattering Tony’s already fragile sense of reality.

  “You know, I could get Tony over his homosexuality if I just took him to bed.” – Barbara, according to her sister-in-law [41:35]

  “...the very fact that she is telling people that she is… I think is enough to push Tony into having the mental breakdown that he does.” – Gail [46:38]

• Impact: Tony’s mental health rapidly deteriorated, manifesting in violence and psychosis, culminating in several attacks on Barbara before her murder [63:18, 65:24].

6. The Murder and Aftermath

The Crime

• On November 17, 1972, after another argument, Tony fatally stabbed Barbara in the heart. Police found him calmly ordering takeaway while his mother’s body was still in the flat [06:50, 73:03].
• Notable Moment:

  “There was a tiny hole in the bodice of her dress and only a small trickle of blood… the knife had plunged neatly just once directly into Barbara’s heart…” – Hannah [06:50]

The Trial and Broadmoor

• Tony was convicted of manslaughter due to diminished responsibility (diagnosed with schizophrenia) and sent to Broadmoor high security psychiatric hospital indefinitely [75:26].
• The hosts discuss how virtually every factor—heredity, abuse, neglect, wealth, and lack of boundaries—converged in this case [76:08, 76:50].

7. Failed Release and Second Attack

• Friends Campaign for Release: A group dubbed the “Bleeding Hearts Club” used their influence to secure Tony’s release, believing he was no longer a danger now that Barbara was dead [78:12, 78:46, 82:20].

• Tragic Repeat: Within just six days of arriving in New York to stay with his grandmother, Nene, Tony stabbed her repeatedly but miraculously did not kill her [85:50, 86:26].

• Descent at Rikers: While jailed at Rikers awaiting trial, Tony descended further into delusion, exploiting fellow inmates for sex and money and ultimately died by suicide using a plastic bag—poignantly linking back to the family fortune [89:38].

  “The irony of Tony using the same material his family's wealth had come from to take his own life was not lost on anyone.” – Hannah [89:38]

8. Speculation, Legacy, and Reflection

• The hosts reflect on the factors that created the tragedy: unchecked privilege, generational trauma, mental illness, and the unique psychological poison of excessive wealth.
• Sympathy for the Perpetrator: Both Hannah and Gail ultimately place most blame on Barbara, expressing sorrow for both Tony and Nene, even as Tony became a killer [90:42, 92:30].
• Notable Quote:

  “This specific kind of sickness… only exists in environments fueled by unimaginable wealth. When you are unimaginably wealthy, you can just have a good time all the time… you are a step removed from having to exist in reality.” – Hannah & Gail [91:14, 91:47]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It cannot be stressed like how revolutionary Bakelite was… it changed the game in every way possible.” – Gail [03:51]
• “She is like, yeah, she’s certified 50.” – Gail (on Barbara’s enduring beauty) [06:27]
• “Here you are, darling, at last. Manacle to mummy.” – Barbara, as described by Hannah [37:59]
• “If you want to fuck your kid up, this is how you do it. Tell him he’s a messiah.” – Gail [38:24]
• “The term [Jocasta complex] can be used to cover… a full-blown incestuous and sexually abusive dynamic.” – Gail [57:59]
• “I know Tony kills Barbara. I know he attempts to kill Nini, but I feel very, very sorry for him.” – Gail [92:30]

---

Segment Timeline

| Timestamp | Topic / Segment | |:---------:|----------------| | 01:47 | Case Introduction and setup: The murder of Barbara Baekeland | | 03:51 | Background of the Bakelite fortune, family legacy | | 08:55 | Barbara’s childhood trauma, family mental illness | | 13:21 | Barbara meets and marries Brooks Baekeland | | 20:21 | Marriage volatility and public incidents | | 23:22 | Tony’s birth, upbringing, parental detachment | | 30:09 | Tony’s disturbing childhood, inappropriate exposures | | 32:17 | Brooks’s affair and the breakdown of the marriage | | 34:41 | Barbara’s fixation on Tony’s sexuality; failed ‘conversion’ attempts begin | | 39:35 | Emotional incest and enmeshment; they move to Mallorca | | 41:09 | Allegations and evidence of incest, attempted ‘conversion therapy’ | | 46:38 | Discussion of taboo, the social circle, and psychological fallout | | 51:47 | Barbara writes a novel featuring mother-son incest | | 63:18 | Tony’s increasingly violent episodes; ignored warnings | | 65:24 | Tony pulls Barbara toward traffic, breaks her thumb | | 67:39 | Psychiatrist warns Barbara: Tony will kill her | | 73:03 | Crime details: The murder of Barbara by Tony | | 75:26 | Tony’s trial, Broadmoor commitment, family legacy | | 78:12 | Friends campaign for Tony’s release; consequences | | 85:50 | Tony’s attack on Nene after his release | | 89:38 | Tony’s suicide at Rikers, family and friend reactions | | 90:38 | Dr. Maguire’s assessment; the role of wealth, illness, and family dysfunction |

---

Tone & Language

The hosts maintain their trademark dark humor and candid style—a blend of sensitivity, critical analysis, and irreverence—while tackling the episode’s difficult subject matter. They balance factual storytelling with open speculation, personal opinions, and the occasional humorous aside, even amid the most horrific details.

---

Conclusion / Takeaway

RedHanded’s deep dive into the Baekeland case unpacks how generational dysfunction, privilege, and untreated mental illness can ripple through a family, culminating in tragedy. The story is a bleak reminder that immense wealth does not shield from pain—if anything, it distorts reality, magnifies pathology, and, as in the Baekeland case, may even help breed a nightmare from which no one escapes unscathed.

“Go have a long shower, do something. And... there you go. That’s it. Goodbye.” – Gail & Hannah [92:33]

---

Transcript

[Gail]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself to see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Hannah]

This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar. Pretty much everyone I know struggles with their energy levels these days, but if you often find yourself flagging, the solution might be easier than you think. IQ Bar Protein Bars, IQ Mix Hydration Mixes and IQ Joe Mushroom Coffees are the delicious low sugar brain and body fuel that you need to win your day. We got the Ultimate Sampler pack and let me tell you, it disappeared in days. Especially the IQmix zero sugar drink mix Sachets. They hydrate you with electrolytes, improve your mood and boast your mental clarity. All IQ Bar products are packed with clean, delicious ingredients that keep you physically and mentally fit, like magnesium, lion's mane, and more. And right now, IQ Bar is offering our special podcast listeners 20% off all IQ Bar products, including the ultimate sampler pack plus free shipping. To get your 20% off text red handed to 64,000 text red handed to 64,000. That's red handed to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details.

[Gail]

In 1972, glamorous American socialite Barbara Daly Baekelon was stabbed to death in her chic London penthouse. The culprit? He was her very own son, Tony. Wayward heir to the Bakerlite plastic dynasty. He was locked up in Broadmoor Hospital for almost a decade until a posse of devoted friends with connections in high places campaigned to get him out, only for him to then attack his elderly grandmother with a knife just six days after touching down in New York City. The crimes were a shocking glimpse into a filthy rich family hiding toxic secrets beneath its dazzling veneer. So how did a clan that had made its fortune in plastic from a Belgian scientist with a simple American dream turn into a twisted nightmare featuring madness, obsession and mother son incest? Be warned. I'm Saruti.

[Hannah]

I'm Hannah.

[Gail]

And this is a case that makes Mummy dearest sound like a bedtime story.

[Hannah]

I think this is another one that we tried to pitch to documentary makers.

[Gail]

Uh huh.

[Hannah]

Because they would always be American and they'd be like, go and find some British stories. And it Would be this one, Gail. This is one of the. One of the ones.

[Gail]

I see. Well, it never made it to that.

[Hannah]

No, it did not.

[Gail]

So we've got it here for you today and it is a very perfectly transatlantic story and perfectly fucked up.

[Hannah]

Mm. To start this bloody saga, we need to begin almost at the end. On the 17th of November 1972, Barbara Daley Baekeland was living in a posh townhouse flat in West London. Despite being estranged from her husband, Brooks Baekeland for over four years, Barbara was still very much reaping the rewards of marrying into the Bakelite plastic fortune back in the 1940s.

[Gail]

And it cannot be stressed like how revolutionary Bakelite was when it was created. Like the reason this family has so much money is they invented plastic in the modern sense that we think about it, they were the first people to. Well, not they. The person who invented it in their family that started this dynasty was the first one to create heat resistant plastic. It changed the game in every way possible.

[Hannah]

The steering wheel of my first car was Bakelite and that was like a feature of it. It was a classic car. I'm sorry, I can't explain myself, but now it's like a vintage thing. Like if you find something that's Bakelite, it's like listed as like a positive. It feels. Have you ever felt it? Yeah, it's like more brittle than what like this would be. Yeah. So a precursor to what we now have, but absolutely the beginning of all those dead turtles for sure. And if you think West London flat sounds small. No, no. Barbara's swanky Chelsea apartment was also home to her 25 year old son, Anthony, known to his friends as Tony and Barbara's spoilt Siamese cat, Mr. Wuss.

[Gail]

It's a great name.

[Hannah]

To be fair, Barbara lived a life of leisure, lunching with wealthy pals and attending caviar laden cocktail parties across Europe and the States.

[Gail]

And that particular Friday afternoon in November, Barbara had visited her friend Missy Harden, an exiled Russian princess who ranked highly in her stuffed Rolodex of aristocratic intimates. And Barbara and Missy had met up for a spot of lunch and a good old gossip over filet mignon. Barbara had mostly gushed about her favourite topic, her son Tony. She referred vaguely to the problems that Tony had been having lately, but insisted that he was mad about London. And she was certain that sunnier times were coming soon. In fact, she beamed as she told Missy that Tony planned to cook her dinner that evening. Leaving Missy and sashaying across the immaculately kept Cadogan Square. Around 3:30, Barbara most likely turned a few heads because she was once dubbed one of the 10 most beautiful girls in New York. And at 51, Barbara still had it. Have you seen a picture of her?

[Hannah]

Not in recent memory.

[Gail]

Let me show you. I think people always talk about people, people from the past of being, like, beautiful. And then you see them and you're like, meh. Okay. But she is like, yeah, she's certified 50.

[Hannah]

Oh, yeah, wow.

[Gail]

Like, yeah, for sure. So I'm sure she was turning a lot of heads. Even at 51, with her fiery red hair, high cheekbones and dazzling smile, Barbara was the sort of person who you couldn't help but notice. But Barbara had no idea that the most attention she would ever get was would be in just a few hours when she'd be dead.

[Hannah]

At around 7pm that evening, police responded to a terrified call from a maid that there had been some kind of altercation between her employer and her son. Officers reported to the penthouse flat at 83 Cadogan Square to find Barbara Baekeland lying motionless on the floor of her kitchen. There was a tiny hole in the bodice of her dress and only a small trickle of blood. A bloodied kitchen knife lay on the worktop nearby. They quickly ascertained that the knife had plunged neatly just once directly into Barbara's heart, severing her arterial chamber and killing her almost instantly. Elsewhere in the flat, investigators found Barbara's son, Tony. He was on the phone to a Chinese restaurant ordering a takeaway. Yeah. He seemed completely unbothered by his mother's violent death and very calmly admitted that he was the one who had stabbed her.

[Gail]

Unsurprisingly, this salacious story hit the global press with lurid headlines like Plastics Air Slays Mother. But as word spread about Barbara's shocking murder to those who knew, the family wasn't actually all that shocking. In fact, to anyone who'd met the Bakelands for more than like, two minutes, it had seemed inevitable that one day it would all end in tears. And that's because a pressure cooker environment between mother and son had been building towards boiling point for months, if not years. And in that Chelsea penthouse, the lid had finally blown off with the single thrust of a kitchen knife to Barbara Daly Baekel's heart.

[Hannah]

Little Tony Baekeland had grown up, unsurprisingly, with a silver Bakelite spoon in his mouth, the apple of his devoted mother's eye. So how had this precious mum and son bond turned so sour? For that, we're Gonna have to go from the end to the beginning.

[Gail]

Aha.

[Hannah]

Barbara Daly was born in 1921 in Cambridge, Massachusetts, which is where Harvard is. To a middle class Irish Catholic family of modest means, the Dalys had more than their fair share of tragedy. In 1933, when Barbara was just 11, her father Frank took his own life by carbon monoxide poisoning in the garage. His suicide was witnessed by Barbara's brother, Frank Jr. Who years later took his own life by driving his car full pelt into a tree. As it turned out, there was a strain of mental illness running through the daily line, which Barbara's future husband, Brooks Baekeland would later dub a mischief in the blood. Which is. That's a nicer way of putting it, isn't it? Definitely got some mischief in mine. Barbara herself would go on to be a private patient of famous psychoneurologist Foster Kennedy, struggling with her nerves from a very young age.

[Gail]

Foster Kennedy's an interesting guy. I had never heard of him, but I looked into it and he was actually the first, like, psychoneurologist, psychotherapist, psychoanalyst, to coin the phrase or coin the idea of shell shock following World War I, which I thought was very interesting. But he was also quite radical. So he was very like, and I know now, like, electroconvulsive therapy, there is evidence that it does work and all of that kind of stuff. Back then it was probably pretty barbaric. So he was a big proponent of that. Also a big proponent of euthanasia and also just like quite severe experimental things like putting people who had been diagnosed with schizophrenia into like insulin comas and stuff like that. But yeah, it's. It's a scary. It's a scary study, totally.

[Hannah]

And I think that's what is always sort of skated over when this sort of period of history is recreated. So everyone was a eugenicist and this was everywhere.

[Gail]

Scary times, for sure. And Foster Kennedy, he does see Barbara, she never really talks about their sessions or anything like that, which is weird because she talks about a lot of other things that are like, way worse, even if you're thinking about pasto mental health stigma or a mischief in the blood. And I think that Foster Kennedy diagnoses her with schizophrenia. I don't think that's what was wrong with her. I don't think that she has schizophrenia, but I think they just said everybody had schizophrenia at that time.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Gail]

So after her father's suicide, Barbara and her mother, Nina, known affectionately as Nene, moved to New York City, taking up residence at the swanky Delmonico Hotel. And basically they're able to afford this because her dad kills himself because he loses everything in the stock market. But once he dies, there's a life insurance payment for her mum, for Barbara and her brother that totaled like $1.6 million in today's money each. So, yeah, they are like, this is horrible, horrible tragedy. It definitely psychologically affects her. I've also read that Barbara's the one who actually found her dad in the garage. That is going to do a number on you. But, yeah, they moved to New York, they're living it up in this hotel. And it was a wild choice for a couple of ordinary Boston gals. But Nene didn't see her daughter Barbara, and as average at all, with her stunning looks and irrepressible charm, Nene felt that Barbara was their key to unlocking access to New York's high society. Friends later said that they believed Nene brought Barbara up to be a duchess. Others, slightly less charitably, referred to the pair as professional latchers.

[Hannah]

On hey, man, new money ain't got no choice.

[Gail]

Say what you will, but one thing is clear. The Daily Women were definitely ambitious social climbers. And if Nene did think that her daughter could attract that kind of attention, she was not wrong. Beautiful Barbara felt like she belonged in the room where things happened. And her looks attracted a lot of attention in New York, where she quickly picked up work modelling for fashion magazines like Harper's Bazaar and Vogue. She was even whisked off to Hollywood for a screen test alongside hunky leading man Dana Andrews. And whilst a career in Tinseltown turned out not to be on the cards, Barbara's LA visit paid off in other unexpected ways. Because it was there that she struck up a friendship with an actress named Cornelia Dickie Baekeland, who introduced Barbara to her dashing little brother, Brooks.

[Hannah]

It was wartime, and Brooks G Baekeland might have been a rich kid, but he was determined to put on a uniform and do his bit, to take down Mr. Hiller, which for him meant joining up as a trainee pilot for the Royal Canadian Air Force. While ladies swooned about Brooks's movie star looks, he had the brains to boot, with some acquaintances even calling him an intellectual Errol Flynn. He had actually almost completed a PhD in physics, but pulled out to pursue his dreams of becoming a writer, although he never actually wrote that much. But to Barbara, who also fancied herself as a bit of a poet back then, he was utterly irresistible. And arguably, more importantly than any of his Other attributes. Brooks Baeckland had loads and loads and loads of money. So he can be a poet if he wants to. His grandfather, Leo Hendrik Baekelund, was the Belgian chemist who famously invented Bakelite, the world's first fully synthetic plastic, in 1909. In the process, Grandpa Leo transformed the fortunes of his working class bloodline. Within a decade, Bakelite was literally everywhere. We're talking radios, telephones, clocks, jewellery, and even the shell of the very first atomic bomb. And the Baekelins grew up into a dynasty with, as Brooks called it, and Courtney Cox's dad, fuck you, money. And if you're gonna be a poet, that is the only environment where it's safe. Yeah, and that's exactly the sort of money that Barbara was interested in.

[Gail]

Uh huh. And look, let's just be clear. Like we've said, Barbara is pretty hot. She's got a lot of options. Around this time, she was also being relentlessly pursued by a man named John Jacob Astor V. And if you recognize that name, well, that's because it also belongs to yet another infamous dynasty. Having made their fortune in furs, the Astors were known as the landlords of New York. Little J.J. v actually held the dubious honor of being the youngest survivor of the Titanic tragedy, who was actually in his mother's belly at the time.

[Hannah]

Wow.

[Gail]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Imagine the most interesting thing about you happening before you're born. Miz, you can't top that.

[Gail]

No, that's pretty good. It's pretty good. And his father, John Jacob Astor iv, had actually been one of the richest men in the world at the time. But he wasn't so lucky and he actually went down with the ship. And if you want to know more about that, then check out our shorthand on the Titanic. Anyway, in his life on land, this particular Aster, the one who survived, hadn't really managed to make much of a name for himself, except for being rich as sin and kinda ugly. He was harshly dubbed by Time magazine the pear shaped prince of the idle rich. He allegedly offered Barbara A whopping $3 million to wait for him to divorce his then wife, a woman named Tucky French, so that he could marry her. Some of the names in this are just fantastic. But for Barbara, even the Aster's fortune wasn't enough. She wanted to marry for money and love and probably someone hot like Brooks Baekelund. So she threw herself headfirst into Mr. Brooks. She followed him between air bases, and after a whirlwind romance, she dropped a scandalous bombshell that she was Pregnant.

[Hannah]

Like, if you've got two suitors and they're both incredibly wealthy.

[Gail]

Yeah, and one's hot.

[Hannah]

I'm not gonna go for the butters and a pilot. Yeah.

[Gail]

And the other one's like, they survived the Titanic. So, yeah, she makes a very calculated decision and she marries Brooks. And, yeah, they have this whirlwind romance. She gets pregnant, which, come on at the time, scandalous. They are unwed, and she is knocked up. So Brooks does the right thing at the time. He whisks her off to South Carolina. He paid $10 for a wedding ring and $2 for some court fees, and he made an honest woman out of her. As it turned out, however, Barbara was not in the family way. But it was a bit too late now because they were married.

[Hannah]

The old bait and switch. I see you, Barbara.

[Gail]

Because, yes, far too late. They were officially now Mr. And Mrs. Baekeland. Brooks later said that it was at this point when Barbara revealed that she wasn't pregnant that he realized, quote, he had not married a soulmate, but a powerful and ambitious antagonist. Gotcha.

[Hannah]

The power couple set up home in a bougie Upper east side apartment where they regularly hosted lavish parties for the who's who of wealthy New York society. Guarantee almost none of them were in love with their spouse either. Both of them were stunningly attractive and engaging people. But Barbara especially had a knack for charming anyone she set her sights on, namely those with talents and titles far more important than tits and teeth.

[Gail]

Yeah, she's very much like, she wants to create this hub of, like, energy and creativity and money and wealth and, like, beauty, and she's good at it.

[Hannah]

The Baekelins entertained a revolving door of aristocrats, writers, and celebrities, including Greta Garbo and Tell Usee Williams. Barbara's social climbing became a bone of contention between her and Brooks, who felt embarrassed by her empress heirs. When he was trying to play it cool.

[Gail]

Yeah, it's because he already comes from money, and he's like, this is embarrassing. But she is, yeah, like we said, a social climber. And I don't mean that in a derogatory sense. I mean, that is literally what she wanted to do. And I think he finds it all a bit gauche.

[Hannah]

I'm sure he does, but has to be said that he himself was very guilty. Quite a lot of name dropping. They all do it. They just think they do it in a better way. Still, it was evident to those who knew the couple that Brooks had a real chip on his shoulder when it came to Barbara's apparent lack of class in this arena. The only thing she could do to undo that is go back in time and be reborn and survive the Titanic blanket. That's it. He snobbily remarked to his friends that Barbara was nothing, just some red headed Irish kid before he practically picked her out of the chorus line.

[Gail]

The Baekelans marriage might have looked shiny on the outside, but underneath it was as volatile as the chemicals that had built this family's empire. The couple became notorious for theatrical arguments in public, with Barbara especially prone to erratic and over the top behaviour. Once for example, they were playing a game with friends over dinner where somebody asked would you go home with the next person to walk through that door for $10 million?

[Hannah]

Is it now $10 million or then $10 million? Because if it's then $10 million I'm gone.

[Gail]

Then $10 million out of here. So when Brooks replied that he absolutely would, Barbara stormed out of the restaurant and went off in a car with three random men to call his bluff.

[Hannah]

Get it Barbara?

[Gail]

Which like yeah, okay, but considering that it was the middle of the night in Manhattan, it could have ended very badly. I think it's just to show like how dramatic she is and she will fucking follow through. And yeah, it might seem cute at times, but she's nuts.

[Hannah]

Oh yeah. Oh I have no doubt, no doubt in my mind.

[Gail]

I think it's the kind of thing that at first Brooke's probably like oh this is cute, this is fun and then you're like oh my God, you're mental. All that mischief is mischiefing up our lives.

[Hannah]

Friends described Barbara as a violent person who threw herself full tilt into everything she did, using her willful personality to get her own way no matter what the risk. And in classic old timey stereotypes, Barbara's hot blooded ways were easily blamed on one thing being a ginger.

[Gail]

I wish it was that simple. I think she has a personality disorder.

[Hannah]

Things can be two things. Family friend Ethel Woodward de Crossier described Barbara as having a violent Irish streak and being a redheaded domineering person. Maybe we wouldn't be so violent if you weren't oppressing us all the time.

[Gail]

So, genetics aside, one thing was clear. The next generation of the Baekelan dynasty would be built on very shaky ground with a dash of mischief in the blood. Upon hearing of Brooks and Barbara's nuptials, psychologist the one we met earlier, Foster Kennedy, who had met both of them actually as troubled teens, allegedly cried, God forfend they have a child,

[Hannah]

maybe it'll cancel all itself out.

[Gail]

Maybe it's like that Mr. Burns bit in the Simpsons when all of the diseases mean that he doesn't actually get sick. So who knows? Who knows? But, well, no, I do know, and that's not what happens. It's really bad. What better time on that note, to introduce you all to little Tony Anthony. Tony Baekeland was born in August 1946, inheriting Barbara's red hair and dark eyes. He was described as a beautiful little boy with cherubic good looks and a sensitive, intelligent soul. Throughout Tony's youth, his father was distant in an emotional and physical sense. I doubt that was particularly unusual for the time. And Brooks is around, he's just like, okay, little boy, I see you. Brooks was often more engrossed in his own projects, like the novel he kept claiming he was writing but never actually made much progress on, or the summer he spent in Peru searching for a lost Incan city with fellow adventurer Peter Gibble.

[Hannah]

That's like, good rich man stuff. Like, you go and have an adventure in the Amazon, you know, that's cool.

[Gail]

He's not like, murdering prostitutes. He's just like, I'm gonna go to Peru. See you later, kid. Good luck. Like, yeah, it's just classic rich, old and timey stuff. And in his absence, Tony became the quintessential mummy's boy. Wherever Barbara went, Tony went, too, clinging to his mother's skirts while she held court with princes or drank cocktails with the stars. And it was the start of an enmeshed relationship that would tragically end in bloodshed.

[Hannah]

Wedding season officially is here, and by now our loyal listeners will know that we at Red Handed are committed to a very special brand for all of our shapewear needs, and that is Honeylove. And I honestly get asked about this by my friends more than anything else that we advertise. Do you need a strapless bra that won't let you down whilst you're cutting shapes on the dance floor? The perfect pair of seamless underwear to smooth you out and suck you in without making you sweat? Honeylove has got you covered. Friends, my friends, your friends, everyone's friends, their products are intelligently designed with bonding technology that provides support and comfort all at once. And I swear by their Cloud Embrace bra for everyday wear. It's the comfiest wireless T shirt bra that really does feel like a cloud against your skin. And it's a best seller, so make sure you snap it up while you still can. Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link and save 20% off [e-mail] redhanded that's honeylove.com redhanded and after you check it out they will ask you where you heard about them. So please support our show and tell them that we sent Share experience, the new standard in comfort and support with HoneyLove.

[Gail]

My dad has lived a pretty crazy and interesting life, but honestly, you wouldn't know it. He can be pretty private sometimes. All it takes though is a memory and he's off. So this Father's Day I'm getting him an aura frame. It's a digital photo frame that you can preload with unlimited photos so you can tee up some of his best stories and make sure those memories don't just exist in his head. And aura frames come with free unlimited storage and you can preload as many photos and videos as you want before it even ships. So by the time he opens it on Father's Day, it's already chock full of memories. And if you download the free Aura app, you can share new photos and videos anytime. Named number one by Wirecutter, you can save now by visiting auraframes.com for a limited time. Listeners can get $35 off their best selling Carver Matte frame with Code Red Handed. That's a U R A frames.com promo code. Redhanded Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Taking the plunge with a new idea is always daunting. When we started Red handed, I remember worrying what if? No one listens to us. But despite the fears and the what ifs, it was all worth it. And it helped having a partner like Shopify on our side to help. Shopify is the e commerce platform supporting household names like Heinz and Mattel as well as brands just getting started. It's like having a built in business partner. One that helps you manage your marketing, data, analytics and retail processes all seamlessly in one place. The iconic Shop pay button is converting clicks to sales for millions of businesses worldwide. And yours could be next. It's time to turn those what ifs into We're Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com redhanded go to shopify.com redhanded that's shopify.com redhanded

[Hannah]

summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for in my daily wardrobe. Lighter fabrics, better materials. Pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on. And that's why I keep coming back to Quince they focus on high quality essentials like breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without that luxury price tag. Quints works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middleman. So you're paying for quality instead of pointless brand markups. So the great news is that everything at quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Their lightweight linen sets have been a lifesaver for me in these warmer months and with prices from just $32 for 100% European linen, you honestly can't go wrong. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.comredhanded for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N C-E.com redhanded for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com redhanded Educated at prestigious New England boarding schools in the 1950s, young Tony spent the holidays jet setting around Europe with his mum and dad. The family enjoyed a nomadic lifestyle, hopping between rented homes in Paris, London, Switzerland, Italy, Spain. They hung out with Salvador Dali, rapist and minor European royals, paedophiles with lonely only child Tony lurking quietly in the shadow of his larger than life parents. Despite his shyness and recurring stammer, both Brooks and Barbara paraded him in front of their friends as the perfect son. One acquaintance quipped that actually they treated him like a show dog, quote a slightly larger Pekingese to be precise, while others described him as a puppet that they showed off in company.

[Gail]

Yeah, he's definitely not as like outgoing and charismatic as his parents. So constantly being surrounded by all these people and also both Brooks and Barbara pushing him out to be like, you know, show everybody how great you are, be great. It absolutely, I think just from the start destroys Tony's sense of like any sort of self worth. I honestly feel like Tony kind of never really stood a chance.

[Hannah]

Doesn't seem that way.

[Gail]

No, they make it so much worse as this goes on and I don't think he is very well by the end of it at all. But yeah, it's bad news from the start.

[Hannah]

Barbara told everyone who would listen about Tony's talents for painting and poetry, while Brooks became convinced that he would grow up to be a famous biologist. They both conveniently ignored that Tony's interest in art and anatomy mainly consisted of reading the Marquis de Sade. Oh boy. Sketching disturbing drawings of his mother covered in blood. And where so many of our episodes start pulling the wings off insects.

[Gail]

Yeah, as a child he didn't just happen upon the writings of the Marquis de Sade, he was given them by his parents. And there's an acquaintance, I can't remember who, but there's an acquaintance who said they come to the house one day and like, you know, Tony's like a child, 11, 12, 13, and he's reading Marquis de Sade. Works out loud like when we were kids and you put on a little talent show and it's just like, what the fuck are these people thinking? It's so inappropriate from the start. There's the high expectations and there's like the parading of him as like this fucking show pony. And there's the emotional detachment and the enmeshment, ironically. But there's also just the inappropriate sexual stuff from a very young age.

[Hannah]

It's quite root of evil, isn't it, how giving them a plug in a couple of years.

[Gail]

There you go.

[Hannah]

The Baekelins wanted a boy genius and they only saw what they wanted to see. Both Brooks and Barbara were obsessed with the idea that Tony was going to go down in history as a someone, which he did, just not in the way they had hoped.

[Gail]

Throughout the 1960s, Brooks and Barbara's turbulent marriage became rockier than ever. Brooks was a serial cheater, and Barbara's attempts to make him jealous with her own Spanish toy boy ended up falling embarrassingly flat. Eventually, Brooks actually told Barbara that he was leaving her for his latest squeeze, an English diplomat's daughter, 15 years his junior. But Barbara, she was not having it. She attempted suicide, which did the trick, and Brooks ended the affair. Barbara would go on to repeat this tactic at least three more times whenever she felt that her marriage was at risk of dissolving. Brooks reckoned, and I would probably agree with him, that Barbara never actually intended to take her own life. It was just a technique to manipulate him and make him stay out of pity and fear. And it always worked. That is, until Sylvie came along.

[Hannah]

Sylvie was a vibrant young French woman who became friends with Tony when the family were living in the Spanish town of Carrick in 1967, she was, at least on paper, Tony's first girlfriend. Now 21, Tony sheepishly introduced Sylvie to his parents. But when his new beau caught the eye of Tony's dashing dad, Brooks, they started an affair that would change everything. Upon discovering Brooks and Sylvie's Fling in February 1968, Barbara resorted to her usual trick of attempting suicide with an overdose of pills in Paris. But this time it was more serious, landing her in a coma for several weeks. And when she woke up, Brooks wasn't there. He had finally had enough and officially left Barbara for Sylvie.

[Gail]

Barbara blamed Sylvie for the breakdown of her marriage, branding her a gold digging bitch who had first betrayed her son and then latched onto her husband when she realized that that was a way to get more money more quickly.

[Hannah]

To be fair, she's not wrong.

[Gail]

No, I don't think so.

[Hannah]

She's still nuts.

[Gail]

Oh yes, absolutely. It's not someone I would piss off. No, it wouldn't be. But here is the thing, here's the thing to clarify because when Sylvie first enters the picture, Barbara is like, fantastic. Tony has a girlfriend. This is great news. But the thing is Sylvie was never actually Tony's girlfriend. She was his beard. Ah. While it's not totally certain if Tony was gay or was bisexual, there is one thing that Tony Baekeland was certainly not and that is straight. His same sex dalliances had started in boarding school and there had been whisperings about it for years among the Baeklands, gossipy society friends. And perhaps surprisingly for a couple who tried to do the whole bohemian intellectual act, both Brooks and Barbara were not happy about it. And I think it's probably also because like, yeah, they'll go so far in their like bohemian ways, but not that far. And also they only have one son and they're like, but what about the dynasty?

[Hannah]

Yeah, right, right.

[Gail]

And I think there's also this narcissistic drive from Barbara in particular to mold Tony into what is her version of perfection. Like you see that throughout his life Tony was an extension of her. So if he was flawed, which is how that would have been seen at the time, then obviously that reflected poorly on her. Wasn't just about what Tony wanted or who Tony was. If he was gay, well then she must be a shitty mother or she must be in some way flawed or damaged or broken or whatever and she couldn't have that. Barbara needed control. And you can see this need for control manifest itself in many aspects of her behaviour. Like for example with the suicide attempts whenever Brooks tries to leave her, still despite hers and Brooks's best hopes that, you know, he'd grow out of it or something. By the late 60s it had become painfully obvious that this wasn't just a phase for their son Tony.

[Hannah]

Whilst rolling with a fringe hippie crowd in Caddy case and supposedly dating Sylvie, Tony had fallen under the spell of an Australian bisexual guy called Jake Cooper. Nicknamed Black Jake because he exclusively wore head to toe black and silver skull motif jewelry. He was rumored to be into dark magic and voodoo rituals, which, if you are giving your son the Marquis de

[Gail]

Sade, age 12, what you want, you

[Hannah]

cannot be surprised that that is what he's going for. People describe Tony as Jake's bitch, following him around like a lovesick puppy. And unsurprisingly for the 60s, their relationship revolved mainly around sex and drugs, which, again, why are you surprised?

[Gail]

Uh huh.

[Hannah]

Needless to say, Tony's parents didn't approve of this intense friendship, even though they literally teed him up for it. And to be fair, Black Jake Cooper was bad news, almost a proto cult leader, fueling up on drugs with his harem and living out on an abandoned farm in the middle of nowhere. He took Tony's money, he fed him drugs and started to take control of the naive young man. And no doubt enraged by the rumoured homosexual relationship, but also the idea that someone else might snatch away her power over Tony. Barbara actually came and physically dragged Tony out of Jake's clutches and back to Switzerland, where she was staying at the time. When they were stopped at the border because Tony didn't have his passport, she kicked up such an almighty stink that they were chucked into jail for the night.

[Gail]

Yeah, apparently there's spitting, biting, cursing, punching the police officers. It's again, she seeks absolute control, but she is absolutely not always in control of herself. She doesn't conduct herself in like, a normal way. She is a very dramatic person. I don't mean like dramatic as in like histrionic. Histrionic. I think, yeah. I've been skirting around it because, look, I don't want to be here like, throwing out diagnoses, but when she's diagnosed with schizophrenia, I'm like, is it, or is it histrionic personality disorder? Because that is really what it feels like. Definitely some sort of cluster B situation. Very. Just like out of touch with reality or like what's acceptable.

[Hannah]

Yeah. And during this jail border passport debacle, apparently, according to witnesses, Barbara famously exclaimed, here you are, darling, at last. Manacle to mummy. Yeah.

[Gail]

And the tone in which that is said could change the feeling of it. I don't know how she said it or if she even said it, but it definitely sets up the rest of the story.

[Hannah]

Turn me gay.

[Gail]

Yep. So this is a perfect example of Barbara and Tony's increasingly toxic dynamic. She smothers him to the point of suffocation, insisting on being physically and emotionally closer to him than any healthy mum son relationship should be. But it went so much further than even your worse grasping boy Mum. Because those close to the family remember how Barbara saw Tony as a messiah and also the perfect child who nobody could possibly match up to. Which, like, if you want to fuck your kid up, this is how you do it. Tell him he's the messiah. And this is what I mean. It's not just like, she's a bit too much, she's off her rocker. So under her oppressive love, Tony was absolutely stunted and completely unable to form healthy relationships of his own. But even as his resentments festered, he still idolized his mum, Barbara. He told everyone how much he adored his mother, quote, more than anything in the world. And with Brooks, his dad, out of the picture, things could only get worse.

[Hannah]

Embroiled in bitter divorce proceedings, Barbara tightened her hold on Tony, who was firmly on Mummy's side. And with the loss of Brooks, slowly we see an escalation in the spousification of Tony by Barbara, which you can also call emotional incest. She ramps up her need for attention and intimacy from Tony, treating him as a surrogate partner. The two of them moved into a villa on the Spanish island of Mallorca, where Barbara drank heavily and both of them took a shit ton of drugs. Tony had been dabbling with hallucinogenics since his teens, and by now it seemed that Barbara had said fuck it and joined in.

[Gail]

Which again, much like letting your child read the Marquis de Sade, just feels like you slowly see those boundaries of mother son relationships being completely thrown out the window.

[Hannah]

Acquaintances noticed that both of them appeared to be struggling more with their mental health than ever before. And adding quite so many drugs to that mix is only going to go one way. It was a catalyst to the nightmare already unfolding. Because out in Mallorca, in that crumbling old house, literally, like Aleister Crowley, it is alleged that their relationship took a truly twisted turn.

[Gail]

Yeah. Now, look, I'll say this. At this point, there are a lot of people who are like, we don't know if this really happened.

[Hannah]

Mm.

[Gail]

I am 100% convinced that it did. Absolutely convinced.

[Hannah]

I think I am too.

[Gail]

Because Barbara had been trying to straighten Tony out, literally, for quite some years. She had relentlessly thrust the eligible daughters of princes, dukes and artists under his nose, only for him to remain irritatingly uninterested in all of them. It was even rumoured that in an attempt to get Tony to discover the joys of hetero love, Barbara had actually hired sex workers to sleep with her teenage son. His relationship with Sylvie, as we said, might have given Barbara a glimmer of hope. But then that had gone tits up in more ways than one. Barbara felt like no matter what she did, nothing worked. By the late 1960s, her son's sexuality had become a hopeless problem that she was obsessed with and desperate to fix. And her complaints to friends over cocktails were now taking on a worrying edge. Barbara's sister in law, Elizabeth, remembers her remarking more than once, quote, you know, I could get Tony over his homosexuality if I just took him to bed. And in Majorca, it is alleged that she did just that, embarking on an incestuous affair with her very own son in a twisted bid to cure him of his homosexuality. I warned you, I think I know

[Hannah]

I mentioned Root of evil before, but if she's hanging around with Salvador Dali, she's probably hanging out with Man Ray. She's probably hanging out with all sorts of people, like the central father figure in Root of Evil. And this is a fact, you can look it up. What all of those people are doing are talking about the pushing of sexual boundaries and they're all talking about taboos. And what does it even mean? Like, are we more shocked because she's a woman? Absolutely. That's because men do this a lot more than women do. Also a fact. But like, it's so interesting that she's all for the pushing of boundary until we're talking about legacy and we're talking about dynasty and we're talking about where your inheritance is going.

[Gail]

And I think it's very interesting because when I was looking into Barbara Baekeland, I think one of the things that is very clear about her being a social climber, all the ways in which she gets to the position she's in, she's very, very concerned with how people perceive her. She's very concerned with how people perceive her son. Because then that reflects poorly on her or well on her. And then I was like, so why is she then running around telling people what she's doing? Because she like says this to her own sister in law, that this is what she should do. It starts off as a joke, but then quickly she is making very like salacious comments about having sex with her own son. And I was like, how does that make sense with the idea of how she perceives herself? But I think you're right, right. It's this idea of she wants to also be perceived as this kind of out of the box thinker, this avant garde sexual being who is like, we let our son read Marquis de Sade. Ha ha ha. These are his favorites. But she can't quite Cross into the gay side of things. Because you're right, I think it comes back to legacy. It comes back to, well, you know, who's going to carry on the line that I work so hard to fucking secure. But it's like to her, her fucking her own son is less of a problem than him just being gay. Which you didn't say what you want at the time and the place about how homosexuality was perceived. Is there ever a time and a place where mother son incest was approved? Maybe within the social circles that she's running in, if she's running with people like Salvador Dali, Manet, because you're right, when we listen to root of evil, this is what these people were doing. And so maybe her. And it's this time period and maybe it's. Her perception is warped because she already has a very distorted sense of reality. Because I don't think she is very, like, mentally a. Okay. That she is able to absorb that and then live in that space and not be able to separate. That the rest of the world would be like, sorry, what? And I think she's confronted with people who are like, what the fuck is she talking about? And she doesn't get it. She doesn't get it.

[Hannah]

No. Or they don't challenge her because she's terrifying.

[Gail]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And there's also like, one of the questions people ask is like, do you think you have a drinking problem? And they're like, do you hide your drinking? Do you lie about how much you drink? So then I think that sort of spills into people telling other people about how much they're drinking and it being too much and everyone being a bit like. But no one's saying anything. Oh, well, it's not a secret, so it's fine. Do you know what I mean? I think it could be like an element of that, of like, well, I'm talking about it. I'm not hiding it. I've got nothing to hide. There's nothing wrong with it. I'm not hiding anything.

[Gail]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Maybe over dinner with friends, Barbara herself would make all sorts of crude comments about sleeping with her own son. Like it was gossip rather than a shocking crime.

[Gail]

And look, I know we should be saying raping her son, but, like, this is how she is presenting it. She's presenting it like it's a consenting relationship or a consenting thing insofar as she is, like, admitting that he is gay. But she's like, oh, but, you know, this is what we're doing.

[Hannah]

She didn't show any guilt and really did seem to think it was a perfectly legitimate response to addressing Tony's troublesome sexuality. And the extent to which this would have served to distort Tony's reality can't be overstated. It's one thing when sexual abuse happens behind closed doors, but imagine the damage it would have done to Tony psychologically to have his mother running around town telling everyone, everyone what she was doing. Yeah. That she was helping him.

[Gail]

Yeah. Like as if it isn't horrific enough when sexual abuse is made a secret and the victim feels like they can't tell anybody. This is a whole another kettle of fish when you're like your abuser is running around telling everybody and it is the most humiliating, depraved, despicable thing that could be happening to anybody and she's laughing about it with her pals over drinks. So this is why, I mean, I get some people think that this didn't actually happen, that she didn't actually do it. I do think she did, like I said. But even if she didn't, the very fact that she is telling people that she is, whether it actually happened or not, I think is enough to push Tony into having the mental breakdown that he does.

[Hannah]

I totally agree. Wedding season officially is here. And by now our loyal listeners will know that we at Red Handed are committed to a very special brand for all of our shape wear needs. And that is Honey Love. And I honestly get asked about this by my friends more than anything else that we advertise. Do you need a strapless bra that won't let you down whilst you're cutting shapes on the dance floor? The perfect pair of seamless underwear to smooth you out and suck you in without making you sweat. Honeylove has got you covered. Friends, my friends, your friends, everyone's friends. Their products are intelligently designed with bonding technology that provides support and comfort all at once. And I swear by their Cloud embrace bra for everyday wear. It's the comfiest wireless T shirt bra that really does feel like a cloud against your skin and it's a bestseller, so make sure you snap it up while you still can. Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link and save 20% off [e-mail] redhanded that's honeylove.com/red handed. And after you check it out, they will ask you where you heard about them. So please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Experience the new standard in comfort and support with Honeylove.

[Gail]

My dad has lived a pretty crazy and interesting life, but honestly, you wouldn't know it. He can be pretty private sometimes. All it takes though is a memory and he's off. So this Father's Day, I'm getting him an Aura frame. It's a digital photo frame that you can preload with unlimited photos so you can tee up some of his best stories and make sure those memories don't just exist in his head. And aura frames come with free unlimited storage and you can preload as many photos and videos as you want before it even ships. So by the time he opens it on Father's Day, it's already chock full of memories. And if you download the free Aura app, you can share new photos and videos anytime. Named number one by Wirecutter, you can save now by visiting auraframes.com for a limited time. Listeners can get $35 off their best selling Carver Matte frame with Code Red Handed. That's a U R A frames.com promo code. Redhanded Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Taking the plunge with a new idea is always daunting. When we started Red handed, I remember worrying what if? No one listens to us. But despite the fears and the what ifs, it was all worth it. And it helped having a partner like Shopify on our side to help. Shopify is the e commerce platform supporting household names like Heinz and Mattel as well as brands just getting started. It's like having a built in business partner. One that helps you manage your marketing, data analytics and retail processes all seamlessly in one place. The iconic shop pay button is converting clicks to sales for millions of businesses worldwide. And yours could be next. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com redhanded go to shopify.com redhanded that's shopify.com redhanded

[Hannah]

summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for in my daily wardrobe. Lighter fabrics, better materials. Pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on. And that's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials like breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk. But without that luxury price tag, Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middleman. So you're paying for quality instead of pointless brand markups. So the great news is that everything at quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Their lightweight Linen sets have been a lifesaver for me in these warmer months. And with prices from just $32 for 100% European linen, you honestly can't go wrong. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.comredhanded for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com redhanded for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com redhanded after moving back to New York City in 1970, Barbara joined a creative writing class.

[Gail]

She's got so much time on her

[Hannah]

hands and gleefully shared snippets of a novel she was working on that featured Mother Son, incest. Barbara seemed to enjoy the shocked reaction she got from her classmates at the supposed fix. She though everyone privately suspected it was more autobiographical in nature than she was laying on.

[Gail]

Before long, rumours of an incestuous relationship between Barbara and Tony were in full swing within the gossipy social circles that she and Brooks had once mixed in together. And alarmingly, apparently, there were some people who didn't think it was all that bad.

[Hannah]

I can see how in a social circle where hiring sex workers to sleep with your children is quite normal, I can see how their reaction might be less hideous than ours is.

[Gail]

I can't get it. I can't get my head around it. It's gross and it's ugh. To like, hire a sex work to be like, here, lose your vigilance to this person. But just the biological. Every neuron in your brain should be screaming, no, this is fucked up. And like, no matter how much time passes, I just can't believe there was ever a time. I cannot believe there was ever a time when people were like, ah, fuck. You know, I really think these people are brainwashed into. The people that think it's okay are the people that are part of that brainwashed crowd that we're pushing the boundaries, like, whatever, and it's not a lot of them, right? We'll name one in particular. It's old Ethel Woodward de Croissant, who we met earlier. Apparently, she said she found it perfectly touching. She said she could understand how Barbara subconsciously blamed Tony's sexuality for losing Brooks and that her dream as Tony's mother was to be the one to make him whole.

[Hannah]

I also think that similarly to the Black Peril, these people are all really bored, like, and they're really bored. They drink a lot, they take a lot of fucking drugs, they go to parties every night of the week. Eventually you're gonna run out of shocking things to say. So I think that plays a role also.

[Gail]

I think so. And I also do think it's slightly overblown, the number of people that are okay with it. I think Ethel is, like, on another fucking planet. I don't know what's going on with her. She's pretty nuts. And the majority of people, I think, for example, people like an art curator who hung around in these circles, a man named Sam Adams Green just rejected the rumors outright. Even when Barbara's saying it, I think they just think she's a pretty dramatic person. She's a pretty weird person. I think they just don't believe that it's real. And they just sort of let her say what she wants, but they don't buy into it. And Sam, he actually had a brief fling with Barbara, also out in Majorca, and claims that he never saw anything to suggest incest between her and Tony. Instead, he reckoned that she was just bullshitting for shock value and attention, which, admittedly, Barbara did her form for. So I can understand why people thought that was the case and this whole situation would actually come to a head in 2008, when the film Savage Grace, based on this story, featured a scene with Sam Adams Green, Barbara and Tony having a sexy Spanish threesome. He sued the filmmakers, as you would, and vehemently denied that this ever happened, with a legal battle still unresolved when he died in 2011.

[Hannah]

Wow.

[Gail]

I haven't watched the film Savage Grace. Have you watched it? It's got Julianne Moore as Barbara, and it's got Eddie Redmayne as Tony.

[Hannah]

I remember it being on my list when we were endlessly pitching. But I didn't do it because why would I? So what was really going on? For sure, for certain, for legal, we can't say 100%. I think she absolutely did.

[Gail]

I think she did it. I think people who say that she didn't do it are like, well, there's no hard evidence. And I'm like, isn't there? There's a lot of fucking evidence. Yeah. Like, she says it like, there's a lot being said about it. And also Tony's fucking behavior.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Gail]

Like, he's so angry.

[Hannah]

And not long before Tony killed her, he himself confided in an acquaintance that he was, quote, fucking his mother and seemed, in general, all the time to be really, really distressed. Sometimes during her telling of the story, Barbara would present it as a consenting relationship between adults, which I think is this, like, pushing boundary thing. But I think it's like calling someone histrionic doesn't necessarily mean that they have histrionic personality disorder. Calling someone narcissistic doesn't necessarily mean they have narcissistic personality disorder. However, I think she finds herself in this, like, pushing boundaries crowd, the majority of whom aren't doing half of the things they say they're doing. They're just saying it for shock factor. And to sell paintings, like.

[Gail]

And I don't know if she can tell the difference.

[Hannah]

She can't. That's the difference. Like, she doesn't whatever. Like rope to reality the others cling onto. She's never had it, so it doesn't make sense to her. I would even be surprised if she ever told a lie in her life. I don't think she knows the difference. And if you have a Man Ray photograph book in your house, throw it out. She's a paedophile and a rapist. He's a child rapist. Don't give his estate any money. I walk past a shop front that had a Man Ray display last summer. A whole, like, shop. And I was like, that is fucking foul.

[Gail]

They haven't listened to the root of evil.

[Hannah]

Clearly no one cares that everyone's a paedophile. Hannah, calm down. Barbara would present the whole thing as a consenting relationship. And also painting herself as Tony's heterosexual savior.

[Gail]

Yeah, like, it doesn't even marry up. Because one minute she's like, oh, he's gay and I'm curing him, but it's also consenting. Is she saying he's consenting to her? Like, conversion therapy of him? I don't know. I don't think Barbara knows.

[Hannah]

Like, that Stephen Fry book where that teenage boy fucks the horse and cures everyone.

[Gail]

I haven't read that.

[Hannah]

It's a good book.

[Gail]

Okay, spoilers.

[Hannah]

He's fucking the horse.

[Gail]

Quite. Just. We won't tell you which book it is so you can read all of them and you don't know which one's going to be spoiled.

[Hannah]

Called the hippopotamus.

[Gail]

Ah, there you go. I think with Barbara, that she is vain and demented enough that she and only she can turn her son straight.

[Hannah]

Yes.

[Gail]

I really think that's a big part of it. I think she's like, I tried all these women, tried these sex workers. Sylvie was, you know, Sylvie's hot. Sylvie comes in and steals fucking Brooks. Even they can't do it. I must do it. Yeah. I turn every head of every room I walk into it's. Gotta be me. So from what we can tell, it was the ultimate Jocasta conversion therapy by a mother determined to alter her son's nature. Now, the Jocasta complex is not one we have had the pleasure, displeasure of talking about before on this show. It's basically where the incestuous sexual desire is coming from the mother towards her son. And the term was coined by psychoanalyst Raymond de Saussure in 1920 as the Converse of the Oedipus complex. In the story of Oedipus, she is of course the queen of Thebes who unknowingly marries her son. So just to be clear, the term can be used to cover different levels of attachment and enmeshment between a mother and a son. From a powerful, domineering, but ultimately asexual mother. Love to. To a full blown incestuous and sexually abusive dynamic. Like I said, I absolutely do think that she sexually abused Tony. Some people do question this, stating that, like I said, we don't have hard evidence, but come on. The reason is, as you said earlier, the idea of maternal incest is so taboo. I really can't think of anything more taboo, if I'm perfectly honest with you, than a mother sexually abusing her own child. Yeah, I agree. And rightfully so. Incestuous sexual abuse like this not only destroys the victim's relationship with themselves that all types of sexual abuse can do, but here with this. For most people, their primary attachment figure from when they are young is their mother. So it also destroys your relationship with your primary attachment figure. So it's just like a double whammy. How bad can it get? Horrific.

[Hannah]

I also think it's quite unfair on Jocasta. She didn't know.

[Gail]

No, this is the thing I think with the.

[Hannah]

Neither did Oedipus, really.

[Gail]

Yeah. With the Oedipus complex and the Jocasta complex, like, yes, you're absolutely right that like both of them don't know. So it is a bit of a, like an unfair term.

[Hannah]

But you know, to be fair, the most famous time it happens is in Oedipus Rex.

[Gail]

We gotta run with it. Yeah, we gotta run with it.

[Hannah]

You've gotta get that name recognition in for the SEO or everyone's gonna forget about it. As the 70s approached, Barbara and Tony were both rapidly spinning out. Barbara had become obsessed with her art curating defender, Sam Adams Green, claiming that she was going to have his baby despite being in her 50s. She pulled erratic stunts like waiting outside his apartment all night in the wintry streets of Manhattan in just a fur coat and no shoes. But by now the Baekeland family drama had already provided inspiration for several writers, just none of them in the family.

[Gail]

Yeah, yeah, I think this is it. It's like not just circling in their little world and it's not that it gets written about after both of them are long gone. Contemporaneous writers were talking about this, writing about this while Barbara is still alive. The author James Jones wrote a novel called the Merry Month of May with the character Louisa basically reading like a carbon copy of Barbara. Jones wife Gloria had actually been the one to rescue Barbara from one of her suicide attempts, the one that had taken place in Paris after Brooks left her. So he got like a front row seat to a lot of the crazy and he wrote the details almost exactly as they happened. Then you had celebrity photographer Cecil Beaton, who even wrote his own unpublished story based on gossip he had heard about Barbara and young Tony, even eerily predicting the son killing his mother in the end. But as is often the case, as it would turn out, fact and reality would be far stranger than fiction.

[Hannah]

Keen for a fresh start, in 1971, Barbara placed the 25 year old Tony in an art school in New York. Not long after enrolling, he had a meltdown during a still life class. Instead of drawing fruit, he covered his canvas in bleeding figures and everyone was quite unnerved.

[Gail]

I shouldn't laugh, it's horrible, but yeah, it just reads like it's not real.

[Hannah]

His behaviour grew increasingly paranoid, violent and aggressive. And at the age of 25, Tony was hospitalised and officially diagnosed with schizophrenia. To make matters worse, clinic staff noted that Barbara was backing up Tony's delusions, especially those where he thought he was a messianic figure because, being spoken to by God. Barbara discharged Tony from hospital and said that she would give him the medication they had prescribed. But other than that, she could handle him on her own. There wasn't much anyone else could do since Tony's absent father, Brooks, refused to pay for private treatment due to his stubborn belief that psychiatrists were amoral. Barbara took Tony home with her, insisting to everyone that he was on the mend and she was far more capable of taking care of her son than anyone else. But even she didn't quite understand the task she had in her hands.

[Gail]

Over the next year, those close to the family witnessed multiple disturbing incidents where Tony behaved aggressively towards his mother. A divorce lawyer, Sam Shaw, recalls having to step in and even getting his nose broken when Tony grew violent with his grandma Nini and knocked Barbara out in their New York city apartment in 1971. This occasion led to the police being called, but Barbara refused to press charges. Then, the following year, in January, another vicious argument broke out between mum and son at a fancy house party in the Hamptons. Tony smashed an egg in Barbara's face and called her a whore, to which she retaliated, calling him a homo. Tony then grabbed a knife while she taunted him, saying, I dare you. A terrified party guest named David Mead wrestled the knife from Tony's hand and would later think of that night as a dress rehearsal for what was about to transpire. But the next day, after this fight, where Tony literally threatens her with a knife, Barbara just came to pick him up and calmly drove away in her car as if nothing had happened.

[Hannah]

Everyone was utterly bamboozled by Barbara and Tony's toxic relationship, and I think secretly

[Gail]

enjoying watching it all. There were no, you know, there was no, like, snark pages for them to look at. They just got front row seat.

[Hannah]

No one's stepping in, are they? No. While such violent episodes were growing increasingly frequent, including an incident where Tony jabbed a pen in his mum's eye, Paradoxically, they seemed more devoted to each other than ever. When they moved to London together in the summer of 72, Barbara put on a brave face and insisted to friends that things were looking up for her and Tony. But the bubble burst in late July with an incident so public and so harrowing it almost cost Barbara her life. In a manic rage, Tony dragged his mother out of the townhouse by her hair and tried to push her into oncoming traffic. She clung desperately to the gate, which Tony slammed on her hand multiple times, breaking her thumb in three places.

[Gail]

And look, I am not excusing Tony's behavior, but I am like, he is not well. No, he is not well. I actually think that he probably does have schizophrenia. I think he is very, very unwell and she has been sexually abusing him. This is all that rage. He is like, I fucking want to

[Hannah]

kill you, and confirming his delusions.

[Gail]

Yes. And then he finally ends up in a place where he might get some treatment. Not that anyone is ever gonna really be able to fix all the things she has done to him. And then she drags him out of there and brings him back into her control and is doing God knows what. This is why I think she did it. Obviously, people can just be unwell and be violent. Like, obviously that can happen. But there is so much rage here from Tony towards Barbara. Yeah, it's just like this Toxic nightmare, this car crash that goes on and on and on for years. And that's why the murder just feels like. People say it was inevitable. I'm like, was it? There's so many opportunities where something could have been done.

[Hannah]

Yeah. In the end, Barbara's friend Sue Guinness rushed to her rescue and called the police. From inside the house, Tony brandished a knife and threatened to kill any woman who got too close. Tony was carted off by the police and charged with attempted murder. But Barbara once again insisted the charges be dropped. And she claimed it was worth any amount of pain to save Tony from himself.

[Gail]

Someone needs to save Tony from you.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Gail]

By now, Barbara's friends were genuinely afraid for her life. But she promised them that she would find a good doctor to sort Tony out. And she did. She found a man named Dr. W. Lindsay Jacobs, a psychiatrist who started intensive private sessions with Tony. He had a reputation for bringing even the worst cases back from the brink, and Barbara was desperate for him to work wonders on her wayward boy. But what Dr. Jacobs had to say wasn't exactly what Barbara wanted to hear. Because on the 30th of October, 1972, just a few weeks before her death, Dr. Jacobs warned Barbara that in his professional opinion, Tony was going to kill her.

[Hannah]

I think this is another, like, indicator of she doesn't really think what she's doing is wrong. Because why would you get the best doctor in the business to put his hand in your son's brain if you've got something to hide?

[Gail]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And you would think maybe Barbara would take this seriously, but then, really, why would you? He's tried to kill her already and she doesn't. And even when she has this fantastic doctor who she is sought out for being fantastic, telling her he is going to kill you. Barbara scoffs, but then also immediately makes it about herself. And again, in this statement that she says to him shows how fucking dramatic she is. Not that this isn't a dramatic situation, but just her level of, like, how histrionic she is because she says, he's been murdering me since he was born. Shut the fuck up. Dr. Jacobs reiterated that what he was saying was not a figure of speech. He meant that Tony will literally kill her. But Barbara wouldn't or couldn't believe that her baby boy might really hurt her. And so she refused to take his advice seriously. I don't know if she doesn't believe that he will hurt her. I think she has a very distorted sense of reality where maybe she even thinks that she can't die. Like, it can't get to that point. Like, she can't even fathom it because he has tried to kill her multiple times. Like, he tried to push her into oncoming traffic. The only reason she was safe because somebody else pulled her out the way. Or she is egotistical enough that she believes she can handle it.

[Hannah]

That's what I think. I think it's kind of like when something a therapist will ask you if you're overly worrying about something or something you've said, or, like, has someone taken it the wrong way and is it going to have this massive impact on their life? Is, do you really think you're that important? And for me, I'm like, oh, of course. Of course. The, like, offhanded comment I made 3 months ago isn't gonna stop my friend from the career of their dreams. Like, but she does think she's that important when it comes to Tony. She has to be that important. She's the only thing that is important.

[Gail]

So she ignores him and Dr. Jacobs. Like, I've got to give him his credit. He tries to warn Barbara. She will not listen to him. And unsure of where to turn next, Dr. Jacobs does the only thing he can think of. He actually rang the Chelsea police station and asked them to put a guard at 81 Cadogan Square because he so firmly believed that Barbara Baekeland was in imminent danger. But the police's hands were tight. They shrugged and said that they couldn't deploy resources like that unless something was actually already happening. Now, yeah, like, you could argue that Tony, having tried to push his mum already into oncoming traffic, would be something having happened and would be worthy of doing this. But I also take their point. Like, she keeps coming in and, like, pulling the charges and saying, nothing's going on here. Just two days before Barbara's death, Dr. Jacobs actually managed to convince Tony that he needed inpatient treatment for his schizophrenia. And they actually arranged a hospital bed for Tony to be taken on the 20th of November. But even that, tragically, would be too late.

[Hannah]

I'm not sure what the legality of this is in 72, but why hasn't he been sectioned weeks ago? Could there be anybody in history who is more of a danger to others than themselves?

[Gail]

I don't know. My dad has lived a pretty crazy and interesting life, but honestly, you wouldn't know it. He can be pretty private sometimes. All it takes, though, is a memory. And he's off. So this Father's Day, I'm getting him an aura frame. It's a digital photo frame that you can preload with unlimited photos so you can tee up some of his best stories and make sure those memories don't just exist in his head. And Aura frames come with free unlimited storage and you can preload as many photos and videos as you want before it even ships. So by the time he opens it on Father's Day, it's already chock full of memories. And if you download the free Aura app, you can share new photos and videos anytime. Named number one by Wirecutter, you can save now by visiting auraframes.com for a limited time. Listeners can get $35 off their best selling Carver Matte frame with code redhanded. That's auraframes.com promo code redhanded. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Taking the plunge with a new idea is always daunting. When we started red handed, I remember worrying what if no one listens to us. But despite the fears and the what ifs, it was all worth it. And it helped having a partner like Shopify on our side to help. Shopify is the e commerce platform supporting household names like Heinz and Mattel as well as brands just getting started. It's like having a built in business partner, one that helps you manage your marketing, data analytics and retail processes all seamlessly in one place. The iconic Shop Pay button is converting clicks to sales for millions of businesses worldwide. And yours could be next. It's time to turn those what ifs into We're Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com redhanded go to shopify.com redhanded that's shopify.com redhanded.

[Hannah]

Tony's account of what happened on 17th November 1972 is short, sad and incredibly strange, he told police he spoke on the phone to a friend in Wales that morning who bizarrely told him that they'd heard he'd fallen down a lift shaft. Tony later made plans for another friend to come over for dinner that evening, but when he informed his mother, she seemed annoyed at the short notice. After that, an argument broke out between them, although Tony couldn't remember exactly what it was about. Tony claimed that he saw Barbara write a note on a bit of paper for the maid, and while he couldn't remember what it said, it made him angrier than he'd ever been before. He chased Barbara through the flat to the kitchen where he picked up a knife and plunged it into her heart just once. Barbara crumpled to the ground in silence. And Tony held her hand as she died.

[Gail]

And we know that because he writes about it later. He does it in the heat of the moment, but it's obviously been building for a very long time. But he's immediately like overwhelmed by what he's done. And he says, she wouldn't talk to me, she wouldn't look at me. And then she just died.

[Hannah]

For a woman who had spent so much of her life locked in one fierce battle after the next, the end was oddly subdued. Police found Tony sometime later, calmly ordering a takeaway while his mother's body went cold in the other room.

[Gail]

Tony Baekland was charged with murder and held in Brixton Prison for a while. He appeared quite confused and didn't even seem to understand that he'd killed his mum. Asking several alarmed visitors how she was doing, Tony's mental state seemed jumbled as he couldn't process the enormity of what he'd actually done. In a rambling letter to his grandmother Nini, he wrote the know I loved and still love and adore my mother more than anyone in the world. During the time preceding what happened, a lot of rather strange things were happening. I think my mind was slightly wacky and I was very much under my mother's powerful influence. I felt as though she was controlling my mind. Tony also said that he felt as though a weight had lifted from him, though he still missed his mother and very much regretted what had happened.

[Hannah]

On trial at the Old Bailey, Tony confessed to killing his mother, but he was ultimately found guilty of manslaughter on the grounds of the diminished responsibility. The judge sentenced Tony to receive treatment at Broadmoor Hospital, the UK's most infamous top security mental facility, for an indefinite length of time. For the next few years, Tony remained chronically mentally ill and had ups and downs. A psychiatric report from 1973 noted how his dysfunctional family life prior to being incarcerated, as well as chronic drug use, had exacerbated his mental health issues. I don't doubt for a second that there was some sort of genetic component, but like, talk about, out the frying

[Gail]

pan is the perfect storm. And obviously we see this all the time with killers, but I think with other killers I often think it would be a shorter hop, skip and a jump for them to do what they did. Yes, I don't think that even if one of these things had been removed from Tony's life that he would have done what he did. I think that the genetics absolutely plays a part. The sexual, emotional, psychological abuse, the neglect from his father and the over enmeshment from his mother and the like. Absolute lack of any sort of actual support, mentally or any otherwise. The lack of connection he has with anybody else. Yeah, this was bound to happen, but I think had he not been sexually abused by his mother, I think he would have just been an unwell person.

[Hannah]

Oh, I agree. There are plenty of people who are born with a genetic. What's the word?

[Gail]

Predisposition.

[Hannah]

Yes, a genetic predisposition to schizophrenia, like me, who don't go on to do stuff like that, they just become podcasters instead. Tony's psychiatric notes called Barbara a hysterical, narcissistic and impulsive woman, quite incapable of giving a child the minimum of maternal security. Whilst Brooks was described as charming but capable of no warmth to support his son. Tony suffered from marked deprivation of love from both parents and was exposed to excessive intellectual stimulation beyond his capacity to absorb as a boy. In summary, Tony's parents fucked him up big time. And that overarchingly, more than any other factor, led him to where he ended up.

[Gail]

Tony continued to suffer from the active symptoms of schizophrenia for several years whilst in Broadmoor. But because it was the 70s, the Broadmoor doctors obviously just basically pumped him full of loads of sedatives. And after a while they did seem to start doing the trick. Tony grew calmer, more sociable and seemed to settle into hospital life. The notoriety of his case even drew famous visitors like actress Patricia Neal, who came along with a friend to meet the infamous Mother Slayer.

[Hannah]

I'm sure she was married to Roald Dahlia.

[Gail]

Maybe.

[Hannah]

I'm sure, yeah. Patricia Neal was Roald Dahl's first wife?

[Gail]

I think so. Those who visited Tony in Broadmoor were usually surprised by how calm and clear eyed he seemed. So as the end of the decade approached, a group of Tony's loyal friends started thinking it was high time he got out. Which like, doesn't work out well, but fair do. Like a decade later his friends are still like, hey man, you got rough deal and we're going to get you out of there.

[Hannah]

Yeah. Unfortunately I do think a hospital is the best place.

[Gail]

Yeah, yeah. I think it's because he starts to respond to the treatment or.

[Hannah]

Well, he's responding to stability.

[Gail]

Yes.

[Hannah]

Because he's never ever had it.

[Gail]

Absolutely. I understand their reasons for wanting to do this. They reckoned that the tragedy had been largely down to Tony's toxic relationship with Barbara. And now that she was gone, he wasn't a risk to himself or the public outside anymore. Now Tony's dad, Brooks because remember, he's still very much alive and kicking. He dismissively dubbed this group of friends the Bleeding Hearts Club. But these bleeding hearts had some serious connections. Among them were the aptly named Jinty and Hugo Money Coots. Jinty Money Coots.

[Hannah]

Literally just posho McMoney bags, isn't it?

[Gail]

And yes, they were members of the mega loaded banking family.

[Hannah]

I did London know that the Coots family's name was actually Money Hyphen Coots.

[Gail]

Do you think they dropped the money because it was just too on the nose? So, using their wealth and influence, Tony's friends put pressure on the top dogs at Broadmoor to campaign for his release and his extradition to America.

[Hannah]

But someone called Dr. Thomas Maguire was hesitant, insisting they couldn't just set him loose willy nilly while us Maguires are on the same side, Dr. Thomas Tony would need a proper transition plan with ongoing treatment so he could adjust to normal society. And it's not like I understand where the Bleeding Hearts Club was at, I get it. But it's not like everything was completely normal and he developed into a completely well rounded normal person. And then there was a period of five years where everything went really horribly wrong. And those five years, the only factor was his mum, who is now gone. We are all just a sum of our experiences and you can't just delete them.

[Gail]

I know.

[Hannah]

Like the reason your mom can push your buttons better than anyone else is because she made them. Like that's true of everybody.

[Gail]

Yeah, I, I don't know. I totally agree that he should stay in Broadmoor. That is where he should be. I think his friends genuinely just felt awful for him and were like naive and don't understand the severity of the situation.

[Hannah]

No. Since there was no real equivalent to Broadmoor in the States and Brooks was still refusing to cough up for private treatment, everyone was stuck in a sort of red tape limbo. And if there was one person who absolutely did not want Tony to be released, it was his dad, Brooks.

[Gail]

And I'm going to say here, fair enough.

[Hannah]

Yeah. But also, why don't you just pay for your son to be somewhere safe? Anyway, he spoke out against the bleeding hearts and insisted that Tony was in no way fit to be let out, pointing to the aggressive letters Tony had written to his new wife Sylvie from Broadmoor, where he repeatedly threatened to kill her first once he got out.

[Gail]

Yeah, I think Brooks isn't great, but I think he's like, no, thank you.

[Hannah]

Tony also sent creepy handmade dolls for his half brother Brooks and Sylvie's Baby

[Gail]

son, here are some lovely dolls that your murderous half brother sent from a mental institution.

[Hannah]

Brooks was so hell bent on keeping Tony locked up that he even tried to pay Dr. Maguire off. But Dr. Maguire couldn't accept that because Broadmoor is a public institution.

[Gail]

Still, the Bleeding Hearts Club ignored Brooks and kept piling on the pressure. And in 1979, Maguire declared that Tony's psychosis was in remission and said that he believed Tony could live a more or less normal life with enough care and support.

[Hannah]

Most people can live a more or less normal life with enough care and support. That's the problem.

[Gail]

Yeah. It's just that that's not what's going to happen. But Dr. Maguire doesn't know that. And he finally signed the paperwork for Tony to be released from Broadmoor. It was a victory for the Bleeding Hearts club. Tony would soon walk free. But where exactly was Tony supposed to go? While options like halfway houses had been discussed during the lengthy battle for his release, they all fell through. Surely they couldn't just drop Tony off in the States and hope for the best? Well, yeah, that's exactly what they did actually.

[Hannah]

It was ultimately decided that Tony would go to live in New York City with his maternal grandma Nene. Nene was 88 years old and had recently broken her hip. She herself required round the clock care. So this was possibly the worst decision they could have made. And we can be as incredulous as we want. It was approved by the UK and the US authorities.

[Gail]

I'm shocked. He has murdered somebody and they're just like, yeah, sure, whatever.

[Hannah]

And not only that, Nini lived in a tiny New York apartment that was barely big enough for the two of them under normal circumstances. Still, that's where Tony wanted to be. He told everyone once he was out that he wanted to look after Nini like a good grandson would. And Nini, she'd been left heartbroken after her daughter Barbara's death. But somehow she still adored Tony and saw him as her innocent blue eyed boy. She didn't blame him for what happened. She loved him just as much.

[Gail]

There's a lot of delusion.

[Hannah]

I mean, Barbara came from somewhere.

[Gail]

Yeah. So in July 1980 and now 33 year old Tony Baekeland swapped Broadmoor for New York. And despite being a convicted felon from the moment he stepped foot on that plane, he was essentially a free man away from the jurisdiction of the UK legal system. No one had any power over him. Those close to Tony were initially optimistic that this would be a fresh start. But his escort family Friend Cecilia Brebner said that she could tell that it was a terrible mistake from the moment she dropped him off at Nini's apartment because as soon as Tony got there, he noticed that there was a massive portrait of Barbara on the wall and he flipped the fuck out and ordered Nini to take it down.

[Hannah]

Is no one doing a house visit before?

[Gail]

What the fuck are you thinking? I know you're 88, but like, just get someone to take it down. It's all just so, like, devoid of reality. Despite all the doctors saying that so far, for months he had been doing well while off his meds, Tony's behaviour soon became erratic and alarming. Nini told Cecilia that Tony stayed up all night listening to records on repeat and had built a makeshift shrine with photos of his mother and candles like a black mass in the living room and was obsessively quitting from the Bible. One thing was clear. Tony Baekelon was not okay. In fact, he was a ticking time bomb.

[Hannah]

And on 27 July 1980, just six days after Tony's release from Broadmoor, the bomb exploded. Nini's nurse, Lena Richards, arrived at the house at around 9am to find a frantic Tony screaming for her to get help because he had just stabbed his grandmother. Paramedics found a terrifying and gruesome scene waiting for them. A blood soaked Nini lay in bed, cowering and trembling, but miraculously still alive.

[Gail]

She's 88 years old.

[Hannah]

Tony kept shrieking, she won't die. Claiming he'd stabbed her multiple times in the chest, but for some reason she just wouldn't die. Tony had stabbed her eight times in the chest, the arms, the hands, fracturing her ribs, but by some miracle, the knife hit bone each time and Nini was spared from bleeding out.

[Gail]

Tony told a rambling story where he claimed Nini was nagging him and he threw a telephone at her, which made her moan in pain. So he grabbed a kitchen knife and decided to kill the old lady to liberate her from the mistake he'd made. He ranted about the voices in his head that told him he was a saviour or Satan or an angel or royalty. And he told them of his paranoia, that his grandmother was talking to him through these channels too. In a chilling echo of his twisted relationship with his mother, Barbara, Tony at one point rambled about how he wanted to have sex with his grandmother. Tony was obviously still an incredibly sick individual and there had clearly been an almighty cock up in letting him out.

[Hannah]

As Nini recovered in hospital, Tony found himself once again behind bars, this time at Rikers Island. Charged with attempted murder, he was kept in the psychiatric area of the prison under observation for eight months. But Rikers island is a world away from the Sharenzi of Broadmoor and its well kept gardens. It was very much a jailhouse environment, but surprisingly, shelter. Tony didn't just cower in the corner. Instead he threw himself onto the prison social scene using what he had at his disposal. Shit. Tons of money. Now that he had accessed his trust fund, Tony allegedly lent out large sums of money in exchange for sexual favors from inmates and even guards. Bizarrely, Tony seemed pretty confident that he would be getting out again quite soon. Possibly because his victim, Nini had survived his attack. And maybe because, despite everything, she still hadn't given up on him, staying steadfast in her love for her grandson. She later said, it didn't hurt because I loved him so much. I think it is a good reminder of, like, none of this is Tony's fault and at least she knows that.

[Gail]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And while Nene didn't have the power to overturn the case by dropping charges, there was a very real possibility that Tony might persuade her not to testify against him. It doesn't really sound like she needs that much persuading, to be honest.

[Gail]

No. Tony first appeared in court for a bail hearing on 20 March 1981. He'd allegedly been going around telling fellow inmates that he thought he'd be granted Bailey. Although this was obviously incredibly unlikely in reality, in the end, the hearing actually had to be adjourned due to a delay in the transfer of Tony's medical records from the uk. And so he was returned to a cell at Rikers island at around 3:30pm and roughly half an hour later, Tony Baekeland was found dead in his bed with a plastic bag pulled tightly around his head. His death was ruled a suicide.

[Hannah]

The irony of Tony using the same material his family's wealth had come from to take his own life was not lost on anyone. His father, Brooks, bitterly joked that it was a beautiful ending in plastic, too. And tragically, even in death, his mother's twisted abuse remained his legacy. With family friend Ethel Woodward de Crosier pointing out, he just went to sleep in that little plastic bag, like he was trying to return to the womb.

[Gail]

I can't stand Erthel.

[Hannah]

Mmm. No. But there you go. There you have it.

[Gail]

The grim story of the Baeklands. Tony's former psychiatrist, Dr. Maguire, blamed his case on more than just genetics or circumstance. He described it in the following way. A deep sickness in the family and a lack of discipline that too much money will often create a toxic mixture of wealth, privilege, obsession, and mental illness. Set into motion a nuclear reaction that no one could stop.

[Hannah]

I feel like someone could have tried a bit harder.

[Gail]

No one could stop Barbara. I'm not excusing what happened. I just think you would have had to kill her to pry Tony out of her hands.

[Hannah]

Yes. Yeah, I agree.

[Gail]

And so, really, in this case, and we don't often come to this, my sympathy is with Tony and with Nini, even though I'm sure she played some role in why Barbara was the way she was. And I don't like to, you know, blame the people that get murdered for their own demise, but I think if anyone comes even close enough, it's Barbara Baker.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I think that's true. And I think there is, like, a. Like what Dr. McGuire's saying about, like, this specific kind of sickness that only exists in environments fueled by unimaginable wealth. Is that for people who are exposed, like, when you are unimaginably wealthy, you can just have a good time all the time, you know, like, there is nothing stopping you from really indulging in vice. Because if money is nothing, she was

[Gail]

a step removed from having to exist in reality.

[Hannah]

Yes.

[Gail]

And chuck that in with the toxic soup of her genetic makeup, her absolute personality disorder, whatever that may have been, and just her, like, dependence on attention to satisfy her desires. And I think, in a way, her attractiveness fueled all that. Right. So I think it was not the best thing that could have happened to Barbara to be as attractive as she was, because it fed into this incessant need she had for attention, to be the center of everything and to control everything. And it just culminates in the most horrific nightmare story you can imagine. And I know Tony kills Barbara. I know he attempts to kill Nini, but I feel very, very sorry for him.

[Hannah]

Oh, God, me too. Me too.

[Gail]

So that's it. Go have a long shower, do something. And. Yeah, there you go. That's it. Goodbye. Bye. So here's how you can save up to 70% on your favorite brands from rebel.com has everything for your home, family, and life, from strollers to skincare at unbeatable prices. Every day, Rebel drops thousands of new products for up to 70% off. It's a constant stream of endless deals from brands like Uppababy, Nuna, Baby Bjorn, Nespresso, Breville, Wilson, Dyson, Caraway, and more. Every listing is one of a kind. And the Best things go first. So you have to move fast. Save big on your favorite brands. Shop now for up to 70% at from rebel.com I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand.

[Hannah]

It went perfectly.

[Gail]

Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow.

[Hannah]

Nothing went wrong.

[Gail]

So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes as smoothly. I'm waiting for the catch.

[Hannah]

Maybe there's no catch.

[Gail]

That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow.

[Hannah]

You need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood?

[Gail]

Is this table wood? I think it's laminate. Okay.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Gail]

That's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch Sell your car today on Carvana.

[Hannah]

Pick up fees may apply out here. If you're doing nothing, you're doing everything right.

[Gail]

Though.

[Hannah]

On a cruise with Norwegian, even if you're doing nothing, you're still basking in

[Gail]

the warm sun, enjoying the peaceful ocean waves.

[Hannah]

You're breathing. Don't forget about breathing.

[Gail]

Definitely need to be breathing.

[Hannah]

So you get to do nothing or everything, but you still need to be breathing.

[Gail]

It's like really important experience. The difference with cruises to Alaska, the Caribbean and Europe?

[Hannah]

Norwegian Cruise Line.

[Gail]

It's different out here. Visit ncl.com call your travel advisor or 1-888-NCL-CRUISE Norwegian Cruise Line ships register through the Bahamas and USA.