FROM THE VAULT - Casey Anthony: Web of Lies - Part 1

Summary

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RedHanded: FROM THE VAULT – Casey Anthony: Web of Lies, Part 1

Release Date: March 5, 2025
Hosts: Hannah & Suruthi (with Emily contributing narration/research)
Podcast: RedHanded

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Episode Overview

In this “from the vault” two-part series, RedHanded unpacks one of the US’s most infamous—and infuriating—true crime cases: the 2008 disappearance of three-year-old Caylee Anthony and the tangled web of lies spun by her mother, Casey Anthony. The episode meticulously reconstructs the key events, players, and audio records that ignited public obsession, while the hosts critically examine family dysfunction, law enforcement strategies, and the psychological underpinnings of Casey Anthony’s behavior.
Tone: Darkly comedic, skeptical, and deeply engaged, with moments of exasperation and grim fascination.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• Critical retelling of the Casey Anthony case, emphasizing the profound strangeness, deception, and emotional turmoil involved.
• Dissection of police investigation techniques, family dynamics, and Casey’s extraordinary capacity for lying under pressure.
• Reflection on public fixation with high-profile crimes involving young victims, unreliable narrators, and family secrets.
• Personal reactions: The hosts frequently comment on their own astonishment and frustration during research and narrative.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction: Setting Up the Madness ([02:12]–[04:33])

• The hosts contextualize the episode as a "mind-meltingly infuriating case" riddled with lies, odd behavior, and characters that defy explanation.
• Hannah muses: “We’re not here to tell you what to think. But you’ll be thinking a lot of things... and then all those thoughts will be blown to smithereens by the next bit of the episode. Because none of it makes sense.” ([04:14])

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2. The 911 Calls: The Disappearance Unfolds ([05:40]–[13:28])

• Cindy Anthony’s Calls: Sequence of three crucial 911 calls is played and analyzed.
  • 1st Call: Cindy reports her adult daughter (Casey) for grand theft—not mentioning Caylee at first.
  • 2nd Call: She mentions, almost offhand, that three-year-old Caylee is possibly missing.
  • 3rd Call: Frantic escalation; Cindy, now clearly panicked, says Caylee has been missing for a month and “it smells like there’s been a dead body in the damn car.”
    • Quote (Cindy, 13:18): “I found my daughter’s car and it smells like there’s been a dead body in the damn car.”
• Host insight: The curious calmness (even sternness) early in the calls, and the bizarre way Cindy parses information, “like she doesn’t really want to do it... she’s just doing it to scare Casey” ([07:51]).
• Pin: Casey had been missing/misleading about Caylee’s whereabouts for a month, with a story about the “nanny.”

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3. Casey’s Shifting Story and Police Investigation ([20:04]–[36:48])

• Initial police confusion: Officers arrive expecting a dispute over a stolen car, not a missing child.
• Casey’s narrative: Claims Caylee was kidnapped by her longtime “nanny,” Zenaida Fernández-Gonzalez (aka “Zanny”).
  • Claims Zanny took Caylee on June 9, and Casey didn’t report the disappearance “out of fear.”
  • Quote (Casey, 29:05): “I was naive enough to think I could handle this myself, which obviously I couldn’t... just fear of the unknown. Fear of the potential of Caylee getting hurt, of not seeing my daughter again.”
• Police incredulity: They quickly spot inconsistencies—Casey can’t produce addresses or contact info for Zanny or coworkers (Juliette Lewis, Geoffrey Hopkins).
  • She leads officers to empty apartments, fake addresses, and ultimately to Universal Studios—insisting she works there. When cornered, she admits, “I don’t actually work here after all.” ([36:04])
  • Notable moment ([36:04]): After walking police through the offices for 25 minutes, Casey finally breaks character: “She put her hands in her back pockets, sighed, laughed, turned back to look at them, and said that she didn’t actually work there after all.”

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4. Unraveling the Lie – The Pressure Mounts ([47:17]–[53:01])

• Aggressive police questioning. Detectives confront Casey with proof her story is fabricated.
  • Quote (Detective, 47:38): “Everything you know, you gave Caylee to someone and you don’t want anyone to find out because you think you’re a bad mom or something happened to Caylee, and Caylee’s buried somewhere or in a trash can somewhere and you had something to do with it.”
  • Casey stands firm, emotionless, only wavering to say she’s “scared.”
  • Quote (Emily, 56:08): “There is a three-year-old missing, so they’re doing what needs to be done and she’s just like, ‘No, I dropped her off. I dropped her off.’”

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5. The Jail Phone Calls: Dysfunctional Bonds on Display ([57:26]–[63:47])

• Casey’s calls with Cindy (her mother), Lee (brother), and Christina (friend): Reveal Casey’s indifference/hostility about her family’s distress.
  • Quote (Cindy, 59:25): “If only you told them the truth instead of lying about everything...”
  • Quote (Christina, 63:01): “Casey, you have to tell me if you know anything about Caylee. Sweetheart, anything happens with Caylee—Casey, I’ll die. Don’t understand. I’ll die if anything happens to that baby.”
  • Casey’s response: “Oh, wow. Oh, my God. Calling you guys a waste. Huge waste.”
  • Host insight: “She sounds worried, she sounds inconvenienced... Her only concern is not finding out where Caylee is; she needs to explain to her boyfriend what’s really going on so he doesn’t freak out that his girlfriend’s been arrested.” ([63:27], Emily)

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6. The Evidence: The Car, The Hair, The Smell ([68:30]–[75:02])

• Tony Lazzaro’s role: Casey’s new boyfriend; timeline aligns, but he is determined to be uninvolved.
• The Pontiac Sunfire: Impounded, retrieved by Casey’s parents.
  • Overpowering smell of decomposition.
  • Cadaver dog alerts to the trunk; DNA from a dark-haired child is found.
  • High levels of chloroform present.
  • Hair with post-mortem root band (prove Caylee’s body decomposed in the trunk).
    • Quote (Emily, 70:45): “You’re not going to see that banding on hair where the body hasn’t started to decompose… the car really does become a key piece of evidence.”
• Cindy’s shifting explanations: After stating the car smelled like a dead body, she later claims it was just garbage—“a turn of phrase.”

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7. The Anthony Family Dynamic: Enabling, Denial, Desperation ([76:53]–[84:52])

• History of enabling and deception:
  • Casey’s parents, especially Cindy, prioritized appearances over accountability—covering up Casey’s failure to graduate, hiding her pregnancy, and throwing a “pretend graduation party.”
  • “It’s the sound of a monster eating its creator.” ([81:11], Emily)
• Financial Deception: Casey lied about employment for years, stole from family and friends.
• Host analysis: The family chooses to “print the myth,” sacrificing truth for the illusion of normalcy.

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8. Jail Visits – Subtle Accusations, Grief & Control ([85:57]–[99:13])

• Video jail visits are played, richly illustrating the dysfunctional codependency:
  • Cindy and George tiptoe around direct accusations, seem both desperate for honesty and afraid of Casey’s emotional volatility.
  • Quote (Cindy, 88:07): “I need to see your eyes. I want to be able to look at you guys, too. I can’t look at you and look at the camera. Well, you don’t have to look at the camera. Look at me…”
  • Family members repeatedly use the past tense for Caylee, then quickly correct themselves: “I’m so glad she had you… and that she still has you.” ([97:07], Casey)
• Subtext of code and avoidance: Cindy repeatedly asks Casey leading questions—hinting at needing assurances (“What’s your gut telling you right now? You have the claim that she’s okay. Okay. And your gut tells you that she’s close or some… she’s—she’s hiding?” [101:39])
  • The hosts suggest this is code: Cindy is desperate for reassurance, even (or especially) if it means hearing lies.

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9. Analytical & Emotional Takeaways

• Casey’s extraordinary composure and lack of visible shame stymie both her family and law enforcement.
• Detectives’ strategic patience: Deliberately allow Casey to spin out the Universal Studios lie “all the way to a dead end,” hoping to crack her façade.
• Family destruction: Host empathy for George Anthony, who is depicted as destroyed by the ordeal.
• Enabler/victim paradox: Cindy is both a victim of unimaginable loss and a participant in generational denial and enabling.
• Lingering questions: Next week’s episode promises to delve into Casey’s earlier life, the trial, forensic evidence, and the enduring mystery: what really happened to Caylee?

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On the chaos of the case:
  “No one tells a word of the truth… none of it makes sense.”
  – Emily ([04:14])

• On Cindy’s 911 call:
  “I found my daughter’s car and it smells like there’s been a dead body in the damn car.”
  – Cindy Anthony ([13:18])

• On Casey’s lies:
  “She is in a league of her own… Spoilers: She’s fucking lying her ass off.”
  – Emily ([31:22])

• On the Universal Studios charade:
  “She will take a lie to the absolute end until she knows she can’t lie anymore—and then she’ll be like, ‘okay, fine, you got me.’”
  – Emily ([36:48])

• On family dysfunction:
  “It’s the sound of a monster eating its creator.”
  – Emily ([81:11])

• On Casey’s jail call:
  “Casey, you have to tell me if you know anything about Caylee. Sweetheart, anything happens with Caylee—Casey, I’ll die. Don’t understand. I’ll die if anything happens to that baby.”
  – Christina ([63:01])
  Casey’s response: “Oh, wow. Oh my God. Calling you guys a waste. Huge waste.”

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Important Timestamps

• [05:40] – First 911 call
• [13:18] – “Dead body” 911 call
• [20:57] – Arrival of police and start of confusion
• [25:29] – First police interview with Casey
• [36:04] – Universal Studios walk-through and confession
• [47:17] – Interrogation after Universal Studios; police increase pressure
• [57:26] – Jail phone calls begin
• [68:30] – Tony Lazzaro interviewed and profile
• [69:17] – Evidence from the car and trunk
• [85:57] – Jail visits (Cindy, George, Casey)
• [101:15] – Cindy’s coded questions about Caylee’s whereabouts

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Conclusion and What’s Next

Part 1 concludes with Casey in jail, her family wracked by denial, hints, and heartbreak—and law enforcement still without Caylee’s body but now armed with the smell, the hair, and the lies. The hosts tease a deeper dive (in Part 2) into the trial, early family life, and forensic evidence, promising even more twists, emotional fallout, and unanswered questions as the infamously strange story continues.

Stay tuned for Part 2.

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Transcript

[Emily]

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[Detective Melish]

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[Hannah]

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[Emily]

Or help out my customers. Wix gives me AI wherever I need it. Try it [e-mail] scams are everywhere. On your phone, in your inbox, even on your television screen. So what is it about scams that has pop culture so obsessed? Maybe it's because it can happen to anyone. Maybe it's because we're all deeply fascinated by the psyche of someone who can lie with ease and cheat with no guilt. Listen to Scamflancers now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Hannah]

I'm Saruti and I am Hannah and.

[Emily]

Welcome to Red Handed where I have quite a lot of some sort of fruit roll up situation stuck in my teeth.

[Hannah]

There is literally no time where it is appropriate to tell people people what's inside your mouth. And that's the dentist I'm going to.

[Emily]

I'm very hungry and I thought what I'll do. Quick energy, I'll stuff this fruit, wind up or whatever it is in my mouth now, there's quite a lot of gummy fruit just jamming up my teeth.

[Hannah]

Which for an audio piece of content is exactly what you want.

[Emily]

Especially with a plosive mouth. It's a good thing I've got this pop filter. So anyway, hello, everyone, welcome. It's the penultimate episode of 2021.

[Hannah]

Oh, my God.

[Emily]

Over here at Red Handed. Oh, my God, indeed. And it's a two parter. So it's basically the last episode, kind of. Yeah, mega last episode. Because it's a two parter.

[Hannah]

It is a two parter. What a year. What a year. We have had ups, downs, billboards, bestsellers, shows, sold out tours.

[Emily]

All thanks to you guys.

[Hannah]

All thanks to you guys.

[Emily]

Fucking hell, guys. Like, I don't know, I still have to pinch myself that we are where we are. I, like, talk to my friends or go on these fucking terrible dates. What do you do? And I'm like, you literally won't believe me. No, no, exactly. I get to have the best job ever. Yes.

[Hannah]

And we're so incredibly lucky and thankful to be where we are. And it is, you know, 100% down to you. So as a reward, what we generally do at Christmas as a present, apart from our Patreon Christmas party, which we're having this year, which if you're not a patron, you're not invited, what we do at Christmas is we give you a case that you ask for all the time. But on our regular programming, we have just been like, no, it's been done so many times. Like, what can we possibly bring to it? Well, my friends, last year we did JonBenet Ramsey and this year it's Casey Anthony.

[Emily]

Yeah. Yeah. We thought it would be really fun to wrap up 2021 with a mind meltingly infuriating case. That's how I would describe.

[Hannah]

I think that's a fair assessment. No one tells a word of the truth. So you just have to, I mean, make up your own minds as usual. As you know, we are not here to tell you what to think. But you'll be thinking a lot of things, you'll be forming a lot of thoughts, and then all of those thoughts will be blown to smithereens by the next bit of the episode. Because none of it makes sense.

[Emily]

No, it doesn't. So everyone paying attention?

[Hannah]

Good.

[Emily]

Let's get started. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. And a happy New Year. We often talk about the idea that people don't always react in the quote unquote right way when it comes to grief and how it can be Deeply unfair to judge them on this, especially when they're in a high stress situation. But in my opinion, this isn't one of those cases. Today, as we've already said, we're talking about one of the most well known true crime stories out there. It's also one of the weirdest. Filled with bizarre lies, things that make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and a cast of characters so odd that if you can get through the next two episodes without screaming, well done.

[Hannah]

I won't.

[Emily]

I did not. During the research, Hannah had to sit next to me and I'm sure she saw a lot of head shaking and.

[Hannah]

Muttering, a lot of sighing. And so we sit in a glass box all day every day together now, which honestly, I couldn't be more grateful. It's so nice to not be on my head. But the past two weeks have just been Silence. Yes. Furious typing and silence.

[Emily]

Yeah. With the occasional exasperated head shake from me. So this is when it begins. On the 15th of July, 2008 at 8:09pm, the Orlando Sheriff's Department received the following call.

[Detective Melish]

Hello.

[Cindy Anthony]

Hi, I drive to the police department here on Pershing, but you guys are closed. I need to bring someone into the police department. Can you tell me where I can close is one I can come into?

[Detective Melish]

What? What are you trying to accomplish by bringing them to the station?

[Cindy Anthony]

I have a 22 year old person that has grand theft sitting in my auto with me.

[Detective Melish]

So the 22 year old person stole something?

[Cindy Anthony]

Yes.

[Detective Melish]

Is this a relative?

[Cindy Anthony]

Yes.

[Detective Melish]

Where did they steal it?

[Hannah]

From.

[Cindy Anthony]

My car and also money. Okay. Is this your son? Daughter. Okay. So your daughter stole money from your car? No, my car was stolen. We've retrieved it today. We found out where it was at. Retrieved it. I've got that and I've got affidavit from my banking account. I want to bring her in. I want to press charges.

[Detective Melish]

Where did all of this happen?

[Emily]

So the voice you just heard was that of a woman named Cindy Anthony, mother of Casey Anthony, the daughter that she wants to press charges against. It's hard not to feel like when you're listening to that call that it is the voice of a mother being like, I've had enough, I'm going this time, I'm calling the police. Yes.

[Hannah]

And I know parents who have done that, especially about stolen cars. I'm not saying it's something any parent takes lightly, but sometimes, I mean, I've witnessed that path be taken. However, the order in which she gives the information is very bizarre.

[Emily]

Oh yeah. I don't know if it's a bad connection. You can obviously hear. It's not the clearest call. I don't know if she can't hear what the guy's saying, but she doesn't answer the questions in a very sensical way.

[Hannah]

No, she's just like, I want to bring someone into your facility. And he's like, okay, like, why would you not say, my daughter's stolen my car and I need to press charges? That would have made the whole thing a lot quicker. But it's almost like she doesn't want to give the game away somehow.

[Emily]

It's almost like she doesn't really want to do it. She's just doing it to scare Casey.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I think she's. I mean, it's kind of like. I don't really know what she wanted it to achieve, but it's kind of like she's giving these, like, breadcrumb bits of information.

[Emily]

I think it's exactly that. I think it's like, I don't actually want to call the police on her because she's my daughter, but I'm doing it to be like, are you listening? Are you listening to this, Casey? I'm calling the police. I've had enough of this. So. Right. This man that she calls at the sheriff's department then tells Cindy that she's come through to the wrong number, so he has to transfer her. I'm going to play the part when he's transferring her just because I want everyone to hear what Cindy says to Casey while the transfer is.

[Hannah]

Okay, so Casey's physically there.

[Emily]

Casey's physically there. That's what I'm saying. It's like she's looking at her and.

[Hannah]

Being like, okay, okay.

[Emily]

Are you fucking. Listen, I'm calling the police. I've had enough of this. Right. So everybody listen to this next part.

[Cindy Anthony]

My next thing will be down to Trout thing, and we'll have a court order to get our. If that's what you want to say, we'll do it. And you'll never. Well, then you have. No. I'm not giving you another day. I've given you a month.

[Emily]

Oh, yeah. I think that is a very important part. It may not seem obvious right now exactly what's going on, especially if you don't know this case. Also, full disclaimer. Hannah's obviously read the script that has been written by me. I don't know why I said it so cryptically. But she hasn't heard the calls.

[Hannah]

No.

[Emily]

Or listened to the interviews that we are going to be playing throughout These.

[Hannah]

Two episodes, I think I need to be sent to spooky Bitch jail because I actually don't know this case particularly well.

[Emily]

But I think you and I are both not particularly interested in these huge, well known cases often. Why I say that is because I'm really interested to see your reaction as somebody who sees these interviews and hears these calls for the first time, as some of our listeners might be. So I think if she seems shocked by it, it's because she is.

[Hannah]

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm not just doing an excellent acting job.

[Emily]

I've heard it all 50 million times by now. So, yeah, that part of the call, when Cindy says, just in case you didn't catch it, Cindy says, next I will be going to child thing. I guess she means child protective services. And she says, I'll get a court order to get her. I've given you a month. And Casey says, give me one more day. Everybody remember that. This is when Cindy is now on the phone again to 911.

[Cindy Anthony]

911, what's the address that's happening. I have someone here that I need to be arrested in my home. They're there right now. Possible missing child. I have a three year old that's been missing for a month. A three year old? Yeah. Have you reported that? I'm trying to do that now, ma'. Am. Okay. What did the person do that you need arrested? My daughter. For what? For stealing an auto. Is stealing money. I spoke with someone. They said they would patch me through. The Orlando Sheriff's Department have a deputy here. I was in the car. I was going to drive her to the police station and no one's open. They said they would bring a deputy to my home when I got home to call them. So she stole your vehicle? Yes. When did she do that? On the 30th. I just got it back from the impound. I'd like to speak to an officer. Can you have someone come out to my house? Okay. Okay. I gotta ask you these questions so I can put them in the. In the call. Okay? Okay.

[Emily]

Okay. So now obviously you can hear there that Cindy says very clearly that there is a three year old, a possibly missing three year old who's been gone possibly for a month.

[Hannah]

Right, Right.

[Emily]

Okay. Things are starting to get weird. But you will notice, and I think this is important to notice, that on this call she seems calm. She seems very calm about the situation. She's not frantic. She hasn't seen her granddaughter in over a month. But she seems calm.

[Hannah]

Stern, I would say. But I think you're absolutely right. I think it's very much the tone of the like. I'm not taking this from you anymore. You're pushing me to this point and.

[Emily]

It'S important to say that the next call I'm about to play you is the third 911 call that Cindy Anthony makes that day. About an hour has passed between the previous call you just heard and this one.

[Cindy Anthony]

Nine one, one. What's your emergency? I called a little bit ago. The deputy sheriff's telling you I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been misinformed. Not until her mother finally admitted that she's been missing Someone here now. Okay, what is the address that you're calling from? We're talking about a three year old little girl. So my daughter finally admitted that the baby's in the store. I need to find her. Your daughter admitted that the baby is where you said it took her a month ago. That my daughter's been looking for. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can't find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she's been trying to find her herself. There's something wrong. I found my daughter's and it smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car. Okay, what is the three year old's name? Kaylee. C, A, Y, L E, E. Anthony. Kaylee Anthony. Yes. Okay. Is she white, black or Hispanic? She's white. How long has she been missing for? I have not seen her since the 7th of June. What is her date of birth? 8, 8, 9. 2000. Oh God.

[Hannah]

She's 3.

[Cindy Anthony]

She's 2005. So it's Karen. Karen's missing case. A month ago. She's been listening for a month ago. Okay, I just.

[Casey Anthony]

Can.

[Cindy Anthony]

I need. I. I understand. Can you just. Can you calm down for me for just a minute? And I need to know what's going on. Okay, I'm gonna try and talk. Is your. Is your daughter there? Is your daughter there? Yes. Can I speak with her? Do you mind if I speak with her? Thank you. I called them two hours ago. They haven't gotten here. She finally admitted them. Very took her a month ago. Ma'? Am. Ma'?

[Emily]

Am?

[Cindy Anthony]

Hello? Hello? Yes, Hi. What. Can you. Can you tell me what's going on a little bit? I'm sorry? Can you tell me a little bit what's going on? My daughter's been missing for the last 31 days. And you know who has her? I know who has her. I've tried to contact her. I actually received a phone call today now from a number that is no longer in service. I did get to speak to my daughter for about a moment. About a minute. Okay. Did you guys call and report a vehicle stolen? Yes, my mom did. Okay, so there's been a vehicle stolen too? No, this was my vehicle. What did you. What vehicle was stolen? It's a 98 Pontiac Sunfire. Okay. I have deputies on the way to you right now for that. But now you're. Now your three older. Three older is missing. Kaylee Anthony? Yes. White female? Yes. White female, 3 years old. 8, 9. 2005. Her date of birth? Yes. And you last saw her a month ago? 31 days. Some 31 days. Who has her? Do you have a name? Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez. Who is that? Babysitter. She's been my nanny for about a year and a half. Almost two years. Why are you calling now? Why didn't you call 31 days ago? I've been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which was stupid. Okay, can you. Can you give me the name of the. The nanny again? Like, spell it out for me. Zenitha. Z, E, N, A, I, D, A. Last name. Fernandez. Fernandez Hyphen. Gonzalez. I think the officers are here. The officers are there, yes. Okay, hold on a second. Don't hang up with me yet. I need you. Okay.

[Emily]

Yeah. You can obviously tell that things have escalated quite a bit.

[Hannah]

I think things have escalated, yeah. I think. But I think if I had to be in a room with Casey Anthony For 40 minutes, I would escalate also. It's so bizarre. Like, I just can't even get my head. Like, Cindy's obviously, as you heard, she's. I do think she sounds genuinely upset.

[Emily]

Oh, absolutely. I think that's the biggest shift between that hour, between the last call and this call. You can tell, I think in the last call, I think she thinks that Kayleigh is just somewhere. Kayleigh's with her friend. Kayleigh's with a neighbour. She's just, you know, Casey and Kayleigh have been missing for a month. Or not missing. They thought they were somewhere else. We'll go on to talk about that. So I think that Cindy genuinely just thinks Kayleigh's fine and she's somewhere else. In that 40 minutes to an hour is when she realizes that Casey doesn't know where Kayleigh is.

[Hannah]

Yeah. I think it's also a really important thing to stick a pin in at this point. Is that on this call, Casey says that she has spoken to her daughter who has been missing for 30 days. Conveniently, the number on which she spoke to her daughter the day this 911 call is being made is now out of service.

[Emily]

Yeah. Also, just in case it wasn't clear in the call, Cindy has to force Casey Anthony onto the phone.

[Hannah]

Oh, yeah, she doesn't want to do it.

[Emily]

And she says when Cindy says, it's the sheriff's department, they want to talk to you, Casey says, I don't have anything to say.

[Hannah]

Which when your daughter has been missing for 30 days and you are admitting that you haven't seen her in that time, I think I'd have quite a lot of things to say.

[Emily]

You'd think, wouldn't you?

[Hannah]

I also think the 911 operator is doing a good job of like, being investigative, which they don't always do.

[Casey Anthony]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Because this already makes no sense. And I think. Yeah, absolutely. Props to that 911 operator. Cooler days call for layers that last. And Quince is my go to for quality essentials that feel cosy, look refined and won't blow your budget. Think Mongolian cashmere for just $50. Premium denim that fits like a dream and luxe outerwear that you can wear year after year. These are the pieces that'll turn into your autumn uniform. I'm so impressed with Quince's wool coats that look designer level but cost a fraction of the price and the quality. Honestly, even better than the overpriced brands that I've been duped into buying before. Big win Quince partners directly with the best ethical factories and cuts out the middleman so they can deliver luxury quality goods at half the price of similar brands. Find your full staples at quince. Go to quince.comredhanded for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com redhanded to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com redhanded your business is one of a kind, so your website should be too. With wix, it's easy, almost too easy, to create a website that's perfectly yours. Just tell AI what kind of site you want to build or choose from thousands of templates. Change whatever you want whenever you want and get everything you need to start running your business your way. No matter what you sell or what you aspire to be, you can do it all yourself on wix.

[Hannah]

So when the officers get there, they were met with absolute chaos. Cindy and her Daughter Casey were screaming at each other. Cindy told the police that her 3 year old granddaughter was missing and had been so for a month. So it's an important point to make. The officers haven't heard any of this because they didn't hear the most recent call that we just played you. So they're very, very confused about why these two women are shouting about a child and quite so upset about a car that has been salvaged. They thought they were there to deal with the domestic dispute about a stolen car and some money. But now there is suddenly a toddler up in the mix that no one has seen for 31 days. So the only thing they can possibly have been thinking is what in the cinnamon toast fuck is going on? I've stolen that from our very big fan ngryblacklady on Twitter.

[Emily]

Well, there you go.

[Hannah]

And Dwayne the Rock Johnson has liked the tweet.

[Emily]

You know, we're in good company, maybe he'll like this. So when the police start to try and figure out what the fuck is going on, this is the story that they get, according to Cindy and her husband George, who is Casey's dad, on 7 June 2008. So about six weeks before this scenario is unfolding. Casey had told them because she lives with them, Casey had told them that she was going out of town for work to Jacksonville, which is about 140 miles away from where the family lived in Orlando. And she told them that she was going to be taking her three year old daughter Cayleigh with her for the next six weeks. The Anthony's didn't see either Casey or Cayleigh. They spoke to Casey on the phone a few times, but whenever they called and as grandparents would do when they asked to speak to their granddaughter, Cayleigh was always asleep or otherwise engaged. So they never spoke to Cayleigh during that time. Then on the 15th of July, the Anthony said that they got a call from an impound lot telling them that a car registered to them, so that's the White 98 Pontiac Sunfire, had been found abandoned by a check cashing place in Orlando. Obviously when they hear this, they're baffled and panicked because that was the car that Casey had taken to go to Jacksonville. Why was it in Orlando after six weeks and why had it been abandoned?

[Hannah]

They went to pick up the car from the impound lot and were shocked by the state it was in. The car absolutely stunk. This was a stench that Cindy Anthony described in her 911 call as smelling like a dead body. After they got the car back, they managed to track down Casey, who wasn't in Jacksonville at all. She was still very much in Orlando at her boyfriend Tony Lazzaro's house. The Anthony's drove straight there and found Casey smoking weed and seemingly having a great time. They dragged her home. And that's when Cindy made the first 911 call. And as we said at the top of the show, this call is really trying to punish Casey. If you listen to it, Cindy is clearly very calm, stern, and she's being a disciplinarian to tell Casey that enough is finally enough. You can feel in that call that Cindy really thinks that Cayley's fine just with a babysitter or a friend or whatever. But in the hours between the first and the third call, as Cindy says on the recording, Casey finally admitted that the nanny, who's unfortunately called Xanny, had taken Cayleigh and wouldn't give her back and that she'd been missing for 31 days.

[Emily]

So when officers at the house questioned Casey, she told them that she had dropped Cayleigh off at her nanny's house on the 9th of June, 2008. And then when she'd gone to get Cayleigh that evening, as she did every single day, the nanny, a woman, as she says in the 911 call is called Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez, or Xanny for short, had refused to give Cayleigh back. Casey then said that she tried to call Zanny again and again, but the phone had been disconnected. So Casey said that she then went and searched all the parks and the usual kind of hangouts, that she knew Zanny the nanny took Cayleigh to, but there was no sign of them. According to Casey, she was now absolutely terrified but needed time to think. And she said she knew she couldn't go home because she was scared of what her parents would say. So she went to her boyfriend's and didn't call the police. She said she didn't call the police because she was worried if she did that Xanny would have hurt Cayleigh. Interesting point, I think, to note here. She told her parents she was going to Jacksonville. She never went to Jacksonville. Obviously, as we'll go on to see, that's all a big lie. So saying that she didn't go home that night because she was worried of what her parents would say, she had already planned to be away from them for a month. I think that's worth pointing out. I don't know. Premeditation is A word that will get thrown around a lot in next week's episode.

[Hannah]

The police, just like you and just like me, just like us together, could hardly believe what they were hearing. Parents simply just do not wait for a month before reporting their child missing. So they were, of course, massively suspicious of Ms. Casey Anthony, and they actually charged her at this point with child neglect and took her in for official questioning at the station. Casey stuck to the nanny story, and here is a clip from that first police interview.

[Detective Melish]

Date Right now is July 16, 2008. The time right now is 04.11 hours. I'm Detective Melish with the Orange County Sheriff's Office. I am with Casey Anthony. Is that correct?

[Emily]

Yes.

[Detective Melish]

Casey, you understand this is being recorded?

[Casey Anthony]

Yes.

[Detective Melish]

You have any objection to that?

[Casey Anthony]

No.

[Detective Melish]

Casey, I got called here in reference to a missing child. You took Casey to our babysitter's house?

[Casey Anthony]

Yes.

[Detective Melish]

And who was this babysitter?

[Casey Anthony]

Her name is Zenida Fernandez Gonzalez.

[Detective Melish]

How long had you known Zenida?

[Casey Anthony]

Almost four years. It'll be four years Christmas this year.

[Detective Melish]

And where did you meet her? Who did you meet her through?

[Casey Anthony]

Mutual friend. His name is Jeffrey Michael Hopkins. I met him at Nickelodeon, at Universal, and I met her through him. She was his son's nanny at the time.

[Detective Melish]

Does Jeffrey still work at Universal?

[Casey Anthony]

No, he does not.

[Detective Melish]

How long has it been since he left?

[Casey Anthony]

About 9, 10 months, give or take. He moved up to North Carolina for a short time and moved down to Jacksonville within the last three months.

[Detective Melish]

When was the last time you spoke with him?

[Casey Anthony]

About a week and a half ago.

[Detective Melish]

Do you know a telephone number for him?

[Casey Anthony]

I can find a number for him. I don't know a number offhand. No, I do not.

[Detective Melish]

So you met Zinaida through Jeffrey Hopkins?

[Casey Anthony]

I did.

[Detective Melish]

And his son, Zack Hopkins. I guess Zinaida used to watch over Zach.

[Hannah]

Yes.

[Detective Melish]

And when did she start watching over your child?

[Casey Anthony]

It's been within the last year and a half, two years that she started watching Kaylee.

[Detective Melish]

How would you normally drop off, or how would you normally do the exchange with your child in Zedaya? Would you drop the child off? Would she meet you somewhere?

[Casey Anthony]

I would usually drop her off for a few months. We would go over to Jeff's house. He lived over in Avalon Park.

[Detective Melish]

And you would go to Jeff's house? Why?

[Casey Anthony]

To drop off Kaylee. That's where Zenitha would go to watch both of the kids.

[Detective Melish]

Okay.

[Casey Anthony]

It was in a nice, centralized area. He had a decent sized house. It was good room for the two of them.

[Detective Melish]

Go back to your Statement? You dropped off Kaylee June 9th and walked me through your drop drawer. Off to go to work.

[Emily]

Mm.

[Detective Melish]

Okay. Get off of work and go from there.

[Casey Anthony]

I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up kids. Kaylee, like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door. Nobody answers. So I call Zenai, the cell phone, and it's out of service. I didn't really want to come home. I wasn't sure what I'd say about not knowing where Kaylee was, still hoping that I would get a call or, you know, find out that Kaylee was coming back so that I could go get her. And I up going to my boyfriend Anthony's house, who lives in Sutton Place.

[Detective Melish]

Did you talk to Anthony about what happened with Kaylee?

[Casey Anthony]

No, I did not.

[Detective Melish]

Have you talked to anyone about Kaylee? About your incident with Kaylee or the.

[Casey Anthony]

Fact that she's missing a couple people, a couple mutual friends.

[Detective Melish]

Who did you talk to about?

[Casey Anthony]

I talked to Jeff. Jeffrey Hopkins. I talked to Juliet Lewis. She's one of my co workers at Universal.

[Detective Melish]

She works. You still work at Universal?

[Emily]

Yes.

[Detective Melish]

What do you do at Universal?

[Casey Anthony]

I'm an event coordinator.

[Detective Melish]

Okay. What is Juliet? What position is she? Where she works?

[Casey Anthony]

She's also an event coordinator. We work in the same department.

[Detective Melish]

You have a number for Juliet?

[Casey Anthony]

Ooh, offhand, I can't think of one.

[Detective Melish]

Is she in your SIM card?

[Casey Anthony]

No, she's not. Some of the more recent numbers. Her number just changed because she just moved back up north within the last two months, has finished moving up to New York. She's subleasing her apartment.

[Detective Melish]

So Juliet doesn't work at the Universal?

[Casey Anthony]

No, she does not.

[Detective Melish]

What's the reason? I asked you this before, and I'll ask you just for the record, what's the reason you didn't call the police before?

[Casey Anthony]

I think part of me was naive enough to think that I could handle this myself, which obviously I couldn't. And I was scared that something would happen to her if I did notify the authorities or got the media involved. Just fear of the unknown. Fear of the potential of Kaylee getting hurt, of not seeing my daughter again.

[Detective Melish]

I asked you this. If beyond Said Nashville before we went on tape. And I'll ask you again just to make sure we're clear. Is there anything about this story that you're telling me that is untrue? Or is there anything that you want to change or divert from what you've already told me?

[Casey Anthony]

No, sir.

[Detective Melish]

Did you cause any injury to your child, Kaylee no, sir. Did you hurt Kaylee or leave her somewhere? And you're worried that if we find that out, that people don't look at you a wrong way?

[Casey Anthony]

No, sir.

[Detective Melish]

You're telling me that Zenida took your child without your permission and hasn't returned her?

[Casey Anthony]

The last person that I've seen with my daughter, yes.

[Detective Melish]

She Puerto Rican. She Dominic Dominican. Is she white?

[Casey Anthony]

She's mixed. She's black and Puerto Rican.

[Detective Melish]

Is there any underlying cause to why Zinaida would have taken your child? Nothing. That she ever make any statements to you about?

[Casey Anthony]

Only how much she loves Kaylee and how great of a kid she is.

[Detective Melish]

And when you talk to Jeffrey afterwards, I'm assuming that Jeffrey's child is still with him.

[Casey Anthony]

His child is still with him.

[Detective Melish]

Since Zenida had family up in New England. Up in New York, yes.

[Casey Anthony]

She has family down south. Her mother and her sister. Her brother's in New York. She's originally from New York. Pretty much grew up there, moved down here, went to the University of Florida.

[Hannah]

I mean, I don't think she knows the definition of mutual friend. Mutual between who? You and. You and Kaylee? You and the nanny?

[Emily]

She just. The thing is, what she's saying makes no sense, but how calmly she delivers.

[Hannah]

It, and just straight off the bat, no hesitation, so effortless.

[Emily]

And also because of the way she delivers it outside of the context, that nothing makes sense. It sounds so believable.

[Hannah]

Yeah. It's not until you really break down what she actually says, and you're like, wait a minute.

[Emily]

If you didn't know the case.

[Hannah]

No.

[Emily]

If she was saying something else, you would just be her delivery. Everything makes it seem completely believable. It's remarkable. I've never seen anything like. It truly is in a League of Her Own, obviously. Spoilers. She's fucking lying her ass off.

[Hannah]

Yeah. Like, when he's like, is there anything about it that's untrue? He should have just said, is there anything about what you just told me that is true?

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Because the answer is a big fan.

[Casey Anthony]

No.

[Emily]

No.

[Hannah]

The only thing that is correct is that her name is Casey Anthony. So the police now need to find these people. They needed someone who could corroborate Casey's story, establish a clear series of events, and, of course, help them to find Cayleigh. At first, Casey took the investigators from random address to random address, seeming confused and surprised when it turned out that the people she claimed lived there didn't.

[Emily]

Yeah, she's basically like, oh, no one I know that you could easily find like my boyfriend or my parents or anybody else who's real. I didn't tell any of them. Didn't tell any of them. Even though I went straight to my boyfriend's house. After I realised that Cayley was missing, I told these other people, like Jeffrey Hopkins and Juliet Lewis, that you now need to go find.

[Hannah]

She'd even sent the police to an address, claiming that it was the home of Zanny the nanny. But when they got there, the flat was completely empty. And obviously there are a lot of things about Casey Anthony that don't exactly make her Mum of the Year, but if I was entrusting someone with my child, I think I would quite like to know their address and I would like to know that they actually lived there. And I would like to know that they have a phone that is connected. Oh, yeah.

[Emily]

I mean, the problem is that Casey says, this is definitely Zanny's apartment. And she's like, yeah, I dropped her off here all the time. But it's like, no, you didn't, because she's not here. She's not here. And also. And actually the flat's completely fucking empty.

[Hannah]

It's not even that Zanny the nanny may have lived there and may have vacated. The owners of the building said that absolutely no one ever, not never had lived in the building called Zinaida. So she was never there. Zanny the nanny never, ever lived there.

[Emily]

No one named Zinaida lived there. No one had lived there for months.

[Hannah]

Yeah. So she's literally just like. You heard in the call, the rate and consistency and confidence that she comes up with these complete fabrications. Like, she's literally just spitting addresses off the top of her head.

[Emily]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Even when the police confront her with what for other people would be irrefutable evidence. For example, she says, this is Zanny the nanny's house. This is Zanny the nanny's apartment. They go there, fucking apartment's empty. And she says, well, no, this is definitely where I used to bring Kayleigh. And the police go speak to the building apartment. They're like, no one's lived here. They even pulled the CCTV and said for the day, you said you dropped her off here. You're not on the CCTV at the times you said you were dropping her off. In fact, you weren't here at all that day. And she's like, no, I was definitely here. And it's just like, what do you do with that?

[Hannah]

You can't do that much with that to be Honest.

[Emily]

That's her tactic. So the police were obviously growing incredibly frustrated. They told Casey to take them to Universal Studios, because, remember, she's saying Juliette Lewis plus another colleague. They were the ones that she had told. And Geoffrey Hopkins, of course. So they're like, take us to Universal and let's talk to the people that you apparently told contemporaneously about Cayley's disappearance. So they all go to the offices together, and once they get there, Casey walks straight up to a security guard and tells the security guard that she needs to take the police in to speak to Juliet Lewis. She also wheels off a bunch of other names. The security guard was totally confused. He couldn't see any of these names on the employee database. And he kept telling Casey that she wasn't even listed as an employee. But Casey didn't back down, and she kept telling the man to call her supervisor. She even gave a name and extension number for her boss. So this is, like, causing quite a scene. This attracts the attention of a manager. The manager is equally confused by the lack of, like, names on the employee database, but I think he's just, like, kind of keen to help because Casey's screaming about the fact that a child is missing and there are three senior detectives standing there. So this manager tells the security guard to just let Casey and the officers in. For the next 25 minutes, Casey walks these three detectives around the building. And while she's doing so, she's even, like, waving at people, saying hi. Eventually, she heads down a corridor that ends in, like, a dead end at this point. And this is what the detectives said happened. She put her hands in her back pockets, sighed, laughed, turned back to look at them, and said that she didn't actually work there after all.

[Hannah]

To be fair to Casey, which is. I promise I will never say that again, the one place where you can wave at people you don't know and they will wave back is Universal Studios, maybe even Disneyland. Like, the people who work there will wave at fucking anyone. So she's got that.

[Emily]

She's smart, but she's in the corporate offices as well. I mean, not. I mean, fine, whatever. They'll wave back. They'll not wave back. The fucking ghoul on this woman.

[Hannah]

Yeah, yeah. The audacity.

[Emily]

My God, can you imagine? I think this is one of the things that is the most shocking about this case, and I think one of the reasons that people are so obsessed, people lie all the time. It's not the lies that's shocking. It is Casey Anthony's ability To withstand that level of pressure.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Emily]

The extent to which she can push a lie, it's like. And we'll say this again, because it comes up so many times. She will take it to the absolute end. She will take a lie to the absolute end until she knows she can't lie anymore. And then she'll be like, okay, fine, you got me.

[Hannah]

It's quite. She could be a master of industry. Like, she could rise to the top in quite literally any profession.

[Emily]

She needs to be a spy.

[Hannah]

Yeah. And nerves are fucking steal.

[Emily]

It's truly remarkable.

[Hannah]

So Casey shrugs it off. She admits she's never worked there. But the thing is, the detectives who were accompanying her through her little tour of the Universal Studios corporate offices already knew that when Casey wasn't able to give them the phone numbers or addresses for Xanny, Geoffrey, Juliet, or all the other co workers that she made up and told about Cayley's disappearance, the detectives had done good detecting and had gone to Universal Studios themselves before they went there with Casey to see what they could find out. And what they found out was pretty bizarre. Casey hadn't worked at Universal Studios two whole years. Geoffrey Hopkins hadn't worked there for six years, and no one named Juliet Lewis had ever worked there at all. And when Casey had worked there, she hadn't been an event coordinator. Like, she'd been telling everyone she worked on the photo kiosk at the Incredible Hulk ride.

[Emily]

And I think this is also the thing we have to say of, like, she told her parents she was going away for work to Jacksonville for six weeks. She wasn't because she didn't have a job at that point. So again, you have to ask, why is it during a time when she already planned to be away from her parents and be away from that house for six weeks, it's during that time that Kayleigh goes missing.

[Hannah]

Yeah. And it's also, I think it bears repeating, the speed she comes up with the name Juliet Lewis. Completely confident. And no one at Universal Studios has worked there by that name, which is just astonishing. Two things. A word of advice, ladies. If a man on hinge says he is an event coordinator, he's a barman. I learned that one the hard way. No shade on barman. Just say what you are. Secondly, how does someone who works on a kiosk in America where minimum wage is extremely low afford a private nanny? Do they not have playgroups? Is there not group situations for the babies?

[Emily]

Well, yeah, but that's the thing. She didn't have a private nanny. And she told everyone she was an event coordinator, not someone working on a photo kiosk. There is no nanny.

[Hannah]

There is no nanny. Okay, right, I'm with you. So the answer is she can't afford it and she didn't have one.

[Emily]

And this is the thing, again, talking about the ability to which Casey Anthony is able to carry out a light and the amount of. I don't even know what the word is. Like, the extent to which she's able to go to the pressure she's able to endure because, remember, she lives with her parents and she hasn't worked at Universal Studios for two years, but they didn't know she was unemployed. That means that Casey Anthony was getting up every morning, getting dressed, getting Cayleigh dressed, taking them both off somewhere, telling her parents she was leaving Kayleigh with the nanny. But there is no nanny. So where were her and Cayleigh spending all day, every day? And then she'd come home in the evening, been like, I've been at work. She did that for two years without a job.

[Hannah]

Wow.

[Emily]

This is what I'm saying. It's madness.

[Hannah]

There was someone I used to work with when I worked in bars who, for a good six months stint, was sleeping in the bar and no one found out.

[Emily]

Wow.

[Hannah]

Like, through a very unfortunate series of events, they'd ended up without somewhere to live. And they would just. Because chefs get in fucking early. They'd sleep there, leave before the chefs got there, walk around town for a couple of hours, and then come back.

[Emily]

This is the thing. It's so tragic. And that is obviously a different situation because it's somebody trying to fucking get by and manage a horrible situation. This situation with Casey. She could have gone and tried to get another job.

[Hannah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

She doesn't. She does. We know she's unemployed, as we'll go.

[Hannah]

On to talk about. I think it's just I was quite close to that person at the time that was happening, and I had absolutely no idea. It's always quite shocking when you manage to. When you see something like that, I think.

[Emily]

Yeah. And I think again, you know, in that situation, it's like somebody trying not to share what is obviously a horrible situation here with Casey Anthony. Her motivations for lying are complex. All right, should we talk about the Signal Awards? Sure, sure. That is the level of enthusiasm we would love you guys to have for us too. Because if you remember, we made the podcast series Flesh and Code with Wondery. We were super excited, like, the minute they brought that story to us. Because if you haven't listened to Flesh and Code. It's essentially about following people who essentially fall in love with their, like, AI companions. It's about Russian interference and all sorts of crazy things and about how these AI companions are to be trusted, whether this is a good thing, how it was impacting on a larger scale, and the ramifications when Replika, that was the company at the heart of it, took away the erotic roleplay function and didn't go well. Spoilers. So we loved making it. We spent what, 18 months making that show and we worked so, so hard on it. And so we are going to ask a very small favor of you guys. Shockingly to us, Flesh and Code has been put up for the Listener's Choice category of the Signal Awards 2025. So we would love you guys to please help us out and basically try get some more eyes and ears on Flesh and Code because it was a real labor of love for us. What you guys need to do is go to the Signal Awards website and vote for Flesh and Code. Again, it's in the Listener's Choice category and you can find us under documentaries. That's the category you're looking for. And then under Limited series and Specials, voting is open until the 9th of October, so you really don't have much time. Like literally go do this now. And we would just be so incredibly grateful because if we did win the Listener's choice for Flesh and Code at the Signals Award, then it would just mean the world to us. Thank you. You know those creepy stories that give you goosebumps? The ones that make you really question what's real?

[Hannah]

Well, what if I told you that some of the strangest, darkest and most mysterious stories are not found in haunted houses or abandoned forests, but instead in.

[Emily]

Hospital rooms and doctor's offices? Hi, I'm Mr. Ballin, the host of Mr. Bolland's Medical Mysteries.

[Hannah]

And each week on my podcast you.

[Emily]

Can expect to hear stories about bizarre.

[Hannah]

Illnesses no one can explain, miraculous recoveries.

[Emily]

That shouldn't have happened, and cases so baffling they stumped even the best doctors. So if you crave totally true and.

[Hannah]

Thoroughly twisted horror stories and mysteries, Mr.

[Emily]

Bolland's medical mysteries should be your new.

[Detective Melish]

Go to weekly show.

[Emily]

Listen to Mr. Bolan's medical mysteries on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen early and.

[Detective Melish]

Ad free right now by joining Wondery.

[Hannah]

In the Wondery app or on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. So most of it's made up, but the police did actually manage to track down this Jeffrey Hopkins character who apparently didn't even know anyone named Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez, let alone have a nanny by that name that he had then introduced to Casey Anthony. But it gets even better than that, because guess what? Geoffrey Hopkins, of working at Universal Studios six years ago fame, didn't even have any fucking kids.

[Emily]

And as you will have heard in the interview, she's like, yeah, she used to watch Geoff's kid Zachary. He hasn't got any fucking kids. She's just making this all up on the spot.

[Hannah]

I kind of wish I could do that. She'd be great at improv, mate.

[Emily]

She's. There you go. They're on snl, the Casey Anthony Improv Group. Can you think of anything worse? I can't. So, yeah, the police discover that Jeffrey Hopkins hasn't worked at Universal Studios for six years. He doesn't know Zinaida Gonzalez, and he doesn't have any children, let alone a little boy named Zachary. And when they talked to Jeffrey, he told the police that he hadn't spoken to Casey Anthony in years. But Casey had told the police that she'd spoken to him just a week and a half before she was being interviewed. Once again, lies all over the place. And also, the police weren't able to find anyone named Juliette Lewis who worked at Universal or otherwise connected to Casey Anthony. Detectives by this point were beyond confused. Why was she lying? What the hell was going on? And you might be thinking, why were the police, when there's a child missing, wasting time with these kind of games? Why did they, if they already knew that Casey Anthony was lying about working at Universal Studios, why did they let her go on that little charade of, like, walking them around for 25 minutes and then, you know, getting her to admit it in the end? Well, firstly, and the police detectives admit this in, there's quite a few documentaries, you'll be unsurprised. I'll link all of them in the episode notes. But the police say that because of how relaxed Casey was like in that first interview on that 911 call. She's so, like, relaxed and, like, reluctant to talk to them and not really like how you would expect a parent of a missing child to be. They actually thought that Kayleigh was probably alive. They actually thought, this woman is so calm. This mother is so calm. Something can't be wrong. She knows something and she knows their child. Yes, I agree, which I think is a reasonable conclusion. I don't think it's necessarily right, because we know that people like Casey Anthony exist, but I think It's a reasonable thing that they thought. So basically, they suspect that Casey was hiding Cayleigh somewhere. They had seen firsthand how volatile the relationship between Casey and her mum Cindy was, and they actually thought that Casey was hiding her daughter Cayleigh away from Cindy to just, like, punish her or do something or keep her away from her. That's their theory. But since Casey wouldn't give them anything in interviews, like, she doesn't break, she doesn't crack. She doesn't deviate from her story. She just keeps going, regardless of what evidence they confront her with. So I think the police were basically like, we need to do something to try and shake her. We need to catch her in a massive lie, like at Universal, so that we can force her to tell the truth. But, nope, not with Casey Anthony. And when she turns around in that pivotal moment and tells them, all right, fair enough. I don't actually work here. The police immediately arrest her and take her to a room in Universal Studios. They don't even bother going to the police station. They take her to a room immediately in there and interview her. And we're going to play a clip now from this interview, and you'll hear now that the police are much more aggressive with Casey Anthony.

[Detective Melish]

Since I left you this morning, I've gone to every address that you've told me. I came over here. I've already talked to all the employees, find out all these names that you're giving me are people that either never worked here or been fired here for a long time ago. Okay, so where we are right now is in a position that doesn't look very good for you because obviously I know. And you know that everything you told me is a lie, correct?

[Casey Anthony]

Not everything that I told you.

[Detective Melish]

Pretty much everything that you've told me, including where Kaylee is right now, that I still.

[Casey Anthony]

I don't know where she is.

[Detective Melish]

Sure you do.

[Hannah]

And here's.

[Casey Anthony]

Absolutely.

[Hannah]

Let me.

[Detective Melish]

Let me find something. Looking at you, I know that everything that you've told me is a lie. I am very confident just by having talked to you this short period of time that you know where she is.

[Casey Anthony]

I legitimately have not seen my daughter in five weeks. I didn't want anything happen to her, except I trusted her with somebody. Somebody that had been taking care of her, that had been taking good care of her. Someone that she was comfortable with, that I was comfortable with.

[Detective Melish]

What about Jeff? He said Jeff worked here until about two months ago.

[Casey Anthony]

No, he has worked here for quite a while.

[Detective Melish]

10 months. How long?

[Casey Anthony]

It's been at least 10 months. Okay.

[Detective Melish]

He got fired in 2002. He hasn't been an employer since 2002. We put a lot more together than I think you realize we put together. My question to you is we're in this office because our purpose in coming here was to do what?

[Casey Anthony]

I'm trying to think of places where I know she's been.

[Detective Melish]

You're not answering my question. Do you want us to help? You want to help us find your daughter? Well, good. Starting point. Point would be to answer the questions. Okay, If I say to you, we're here because. And then you just ignore that like I never asked it and go off in some other direction, is that answering the question?

[Casey Anthony]

No.

[Detective Melish]

Okay, let's go through this again. We're here because.

[Casey Anthony]

Because I lied. Because I brought you up here, and honestly, I was reaching for.

[Detective Melish]

No, stop right here. I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter. Well, and if the main you want to do is find your daughter and you don't think lying to us is going to help us find her, why.

[Emily]

Would you do that?

[Casey Anthony]

Because I'm scared. And I know I'm running out of options. It's been a month.

[Detective Melish]

What are you scared of?

[Casey Anthony]

I'm scared of not seeing my daughter ever again.

[Detective Melish]

I'm a parent, too. I would have been beside myself. I would have called the police immediately. And that's the part that I just don't understand. We've got so many resources out there that we could help. Day one, you didn't know what to do.

[Casey Anthony]

I didn't know what to do. At that point, I'm thinking, okay, they haven't been gone that long.

[Emily]

Maybe I can find them.

[Casey Anthony]

Maybe I can track them down.

[Detective Melish]

We're not stupid, okay? And what you're doing right now is you're treating us like we're stupid. Everything that's coming out of your mouth is a lie. Everything you know you gave Kaylee to someone and you don't want anyone to find out because you think you're a bad mom or something happened to Kaylee, and Kaylee's buried somewhere or in a trash can somewhere and you had something.

[Emily]

To do with it.

[Detective Melish]

Either way, right now is not a very pretty picture to be painting. You're painting yourself as a very bad person. It needs to end.

[Casey Anthony]

The truthful thing is, I have not seen my daughter. The last time that I saw her was on the 9th of June.

[Detective Melish]

Remember we had those two people that we were talking about, the person who had an accident. And a person who's just a cold blooded callous monster, that's telling me that you are the second person. This cold blooded callous monster who doesn't care and doesn't want to help because she. She's afraid that something so heinous happened that everyone's going to look at her and say she's a monster. She deserves to go away. She deserves never see the light of day. This bad thing should happen to her. I don't want to believe that right now. But you're going to give me your choice. Tell us what happened to Kaylee. Tell us what happened to Kaylee.

[Casey Anthony]

I dropped off Kaylee. That's the last time that I've seen her. I dropped her off.

[Detective Melish]

Where did you drop her off?

[Casey Anthony]

I dropped her off at that apartment.

[Detective Melish]

No, you didn't.

[Casey Anthony]

That's exactly.

[Detective Melish]

What did you just think? That one day she's just gonna show up at your house?

[Hannah]

No.

[Casey Anthony]

I sat around yesterday trying to figure out what to do. I'm glad that I ended up seeing my mom. That all of that stuff happened, happened for a reason.

[Detective Melish]

Because you're glad you saw your mom? You could have saw your mom five weeks ago, said mom. I don't know.

[Casey Anthony]

I saw my mom's reaction right off the bat and it would have been the same from the get go.

[Detective Melish]

So wait a minute. You're more afraid of your mom's reactions than you are if you ever see your daughter again?

[Casey Anthony]

No, I'm absolutely petrified. Absolutely petrified. I know my mom will never forgive me. I'm never going to forgive myself.

[Detective Melish]

Is it that there's some other thing more important in your life right now that you just weren't really focused on what you were saying when you told us? So, yeah, Kind of just accidentally told us you had an office here and we needed to be here? Or did you purposely mislead us? Which of those two is it? Okay, so purposely misled us. This was all an attempt to help find your daughter, right? That makes sense to you, Craig?

[Casey Anthony]

In a backwards sort of way, yes.

[Detective Melish]

Backwards.

[Casey Anthony]

I'm coming back to places that are familiar to me, that I know are familiar to her. Familiar situations that just maybe would help. She's almost three.

[Detective Melish]

She's almost three? What, do you think she's gonna take a cab here? I mean, I know I didn't know.

[Casey Anthony]

She was gonna get here with someone else.

[Detective Melish]

She's with someone else. Who's hid her from you for five weeks?

[Hannah]

Yes.

[Detective Melish]

Why would a person who has hid your daughter from you for five weeks.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Detective Melish]

Bring her to the building that you used to work at.

[Casey Anthony]

I don't know what else to do anymore. If I knew where she was, if something happened, I would have admitted that.

[Detective Melish]

Thinking up more lies to tell us will help us.

[Casey Anthony]

She's with someone that I absolutely do not trust and that I'm absolutely scared that.

[Detective Melish]

That you don't trust yet with babysitting.

[Emily]

Your daughter for years.

[Casey Anthony]

I don't trust her now because of what happened.

[Detective Melish]

Who did you call first? Who did you go to for help first? To help try to find her?

[Casey Anthony]

No one. Oh, no one.

[Detective Melish]

Okay.

[Casey Anthony]

All right.

[Detective Melish]

Okay. Glad we got that straightened out.

[Hannah]

Jesus.

[Emily]

I don't even know where to start.

[Hannah]

I think, like, it's.

[Emily]

What.

[Hannah]

The first thing that jumped out at me listening to that is when she's like, I'm running out of options. What outcome did you want? What are your other options, Casey?

[Emily]

I just don't know. And she's just like, oh, I just saying random fucking shit. Like, coming back to familiar situation, like, what?

[Hannah]

I won't say that she's completely emotionless, because I do think, obviously the detectives are, like, ramping up the emotion.

[Emily]

There's three senior detectives going hard at her. This is an interrogation now. This isn't an interview anyway.

[Hannah]

Oh, no, absolutely. But.

[Emily]

And she's still like, I dropped. They're like, tell us what happened to Kayleigh. Tell us what happened to Kayleigh. You won't be a bad mother if you tell us what happened is basically what they're saying. And she's like, I dropped Kaylee off on the 8th. And you're like, oh, my God, How?

[Hannah]

Oh, totally. Like, you know that she's still lying through her teeth. But she does. In all of the other calls that I've heard of her, her tone doesn't change at all. And this one, it slightly changes. She drops her volume.

[Emily]

But she's worried about herself.

[Hannah]

Oh, no. I'm not saying that she's having, like, a mea culpa moment or feeling any particular emotions at all. I think what she's doing is like, okay, plan A isn't working. Let's move into plan B, the emotions phase. But she's not hysterical.

[Emily]

No. You confront her with the fact that Jeff. This is when you hear her be confronted with the fact that Jeff hasn't worked. And she's just like, mm, okay, let's move on.

[Hannah]

Yeah, yeah. And she's. Yeah. It's just bizarre. And, like, having literally just done a case on catastrophic false confessions.

[Emily]

This is exactly why I Said it last week.

[Hannah]

It is astonishing. How old she fucking.

[Emily]

22. She's 22 when this interview is happening.

[Hannah]

Oh, my God.

[Emily]

This is what I'm saying. She just. She does not stop. She doesn't stop. And when she says the thing of. I'm actually glad I ended up seeing my mum and all this has happened. Her mum dragged her out of her boyfriend's house while they were all sat there smoking weed. 31 days, apparently, after Kayleigh went missing. And she's like, I'm so. I'm actually really glad that happened.

[Cindy Anthony]

What?

[Emily]

It's weird because in one frame I feel like she knows exactly how to come across. She's young, she's attractive. If you watch her in the interviews, not this one, because this is like, you know, much more heated in the earlier interviews. And when the detective plays nice, she knows how to behave, right? So, you know, she knows how she's coming across. But it's also at the same time, it's like she has no idea how she's coming across when she says these lies.

[Hannah]

I can't figure out whether she has spent her life three steps ahead of everyone else or she's so stupid she doesn't know the difference. I don't know. I, like, I'm split. I have no idea which one I think it is.

[Emily]

Well, we're going to go on to talk about Casey's earlier life. I'll save my assignment for that.

[Hannah]

Hold it in again.

[Emily]

Three senior police detectives being not, I wouldn't say aggressive as like a bad word, but like, they're going hard because enough is enough. There is a three year old missing, so they're doing what needs to be done and she's just like, no, I dropped her off. I dropped her off.

[Hannah]

Yeah. She doesn't panic, doesn't lose her cool. And I think if you really listen to it does kind of feel like the tail's wagging the dog a bit.

[Emily]

This is exactly what I was gonna say. Although there are three detectives in there who have found out a lot about her lies, they are ahead of her. They knew about the lies at Universal before they even took her there. But it still feels to me that Casey is the one in control of that interview because she just doesn't care. She has a real, like, lack of, like, almost a lack of shame. Like, if I was caught out in that many lies, I would be so embarrassed. I would, like, crumble because of that. She just has no sense of, like, shame. I'll keep going. It doesn't matter. Oh, you Found out. That's a lie. Doesn't matter. I misled you. Yes. I brought you here. I misled you. Carry on. What's next? It's remarkable.

[Hannah]

She's the Pied Piper, I think. And it's because she just doesn't even answer the question.

[Emily]

No, no, no, no.

[Hannah]

She's just like, this is my narrative.

[Emily]

That's what the detective says. He's like. She just pretends like whatever they say doesn't matter. I'm just going to keep saying what I'm saying.

[Hannah]

But regardless, after this interview, the police arrested Casey, hoping that this would scare her and that she'd finally just crack and tell them everything, tell them where Cayley was. But again, it was a big, fat, nopity Nopington from Casey Anthony.

[Emily]

So the next clip we're about to listen to is from the one phone call that Casey Anthony was allowed after her arrest. The first voice you're going to hear is Casey's mum, Cindy Casey.

[Hannah]

Mum.

[Cindy Anthony]

Hey, sweetie.

[Emily]

Hello.

[Cindy Anthony]

I just saw your nice little cameo on tv.

[Emily]

So the nice little cameo on TV she's talking about is just before she's allowed to make this phone call, she watches the news and sees her mum go out there and talk about the situation, as you would fucking expect when there's a child missing.

[Hannah]

But it's also weird for a mum to pick up the phone to her daughter, who she suspects of squirreling away her granddaughter with. Hey, sweetie.

[Emily]

Oh, yeah, yeah. And also the fact that Cindy goes and does a press conference to try and find Kaylee, and Casey's words are, I just saw your nice little cameo on tv. What do you mean?

[Cindy Anthony]

Which one? Which one? I did four different ones and I don't know, I haven't seen them all. I've only seen one or two so far. You don't know what my involvement is and stuff, kc. Mom. What? No, I don't know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You're not telling me where she's at because I don't know where she's at.

[Emily]

Are you kidding me?

[Cindy Anthony]

Casey? Don't waste your call. Waste my call sitting in the jail? Whose fault is you sitting in the jail? You blaming me that you're sitting in the jail? Blame yourself for telling lies. You mean it's not your fault. What do you mean it's not your fault, sweetheart? If you'd have told them the truth and not lied about everything, they wouldn't. Do me a favor. Just tell me what Tony's number is. I don't want to talk to you right now. I don't have his number. We'll get it from Lee because I.

[Casey Anthony]

Know Lee's at the house.

[Cindy Anthony]

Get Tony's number for me.

[Hannah]

Okay?

[Emily]

The call continues. We're going to break it down, though, because she speaks to three different people during this call. So that was her conversation. First conversation she has after being arrested with her mum. The level of anger she has at her mom for going on tv, I understand, because her mum's obviously gone on TV and says that she doesn't know Casey's level of involvement in things.

[Hannah]

I would be upset if my mum said that about me.

[Emily]

You would be. Rightfully so. But I think, again, everybody, let's remember this call because Cindy goes on to have quite a change of heart, as we'll discover. But right now, we all just heard it plain as day. She says, I don't know what your level of involvement is in things, darling or sweetheart or whatever she fucking says. Then she says, if only you told them the truth instead of lying about everything. Let's remember these things because she's singing a different tune later down the line. I think the relationship between Cindy and Casey is one of the most interesting parts of this case that I think is quite often, definitely in the documentaries, overlooked purely because, and I understand why they're doing it, they want Cindy to be involved in the documentary. Cindy and George, Casey's dad, they're in all of the documentaries being interviewed. Obviously, if you start criticising Cindy, she's not going to do that. I'm not saying for a second that I think Cindy is involved in Cayleigh's disappearance, but the relationship there is interesting. Also, you will have noticed that Casey was like, get me Tony's number. Pay attention to the next bit. The next voice you're going to hear is Casey talking to her brother Lee.

[Cindy Anthony]

I can do that.

[Detective Melish]

I don't know what real good it's.

[Cindy Anthony]

Going to do at this point. Well, I'd like to talk to him anyway, because I called to talk to my mother and it's waste. Oh, by the way, I don't want.

[Emily]

Any of you coming up here when.

[Cindy Anthony]

I have have my first hearing for Bond and everything else. Like, don't even waste your time coming up here.

[Detective Melish]

You're making it real tough for anybody to want to try to. I'm not going around and around with you.

[Cindy Anthony]

That's pretty pointless. Christina would love to talk to you because she thinks that you will tell her what's going on.

[Detective Melish]

We're going to find out everything.

[Cindy Anthony]

If I knew where Kaylee was. Do you think any of this would be happening?

[Emily]

No.

[Detective Melish]

Couple minutes with us. So I'm not gonna let you consider the wasted.

[Cindy Anthony]

Here's Christina.

[Detective Melish]

She thinks she can get through.

[Emily]

Even Leigh, her brother, is like, it's all gonna come out. Just tell us. Tell us. And she's just like, no. And her singular focus is getting Tony's number.

[Hannah]

I kind of obviously don't know the guy, but I kind of rate her brother for being like, oh, yeah. You're making it extremely difficult for anybody to want to help you.

[Emily]

This is because Leigh has grown up in that house.

[Casey Anthony]

Right.

[Emily]

We're gonna talk about this later. But the dysfunction in that family is rife, particularly the relationship between Cindy and Casey, like we said. And I think that Leigh is a man who has grown up in that environment. He knows his sister. That's why he's not yelling at her. That's why he's not like, tell them the truth, like Cindy keeps doing, because he knows that's not gonna work. He's just like, this is making things very difficult. It's all gonna come out in the end. Those are lines I feel like Lee has said before to his sister.

[Hannah]

That's how it sounds. He sounds like a tired man.

[Emily]

He does. So he basically gives up, and he hands over the phone to Christina, which is the next voice you're going to hear in the next part of this phone call. Christina is Casey's best friend. The first time I heard this exchange, my jaw dropped open a little bit.

[Cindy Anthony]

I want Tony's number. I'm not talking to anybody else. Hi.

[Casey Anthony]

I'm glad everybody's at my house.

[Cindy Anthony]

Do me a favor. Get my brother back, because I need Tony's number. Does Tony have anything to do with Kaylee? No.

[Casey Anthony]

Nothing.

[Cindy Anthony]

Okay, so why do you want to talk to Tony? He's my boyfriend, and I want to actually try to sit and talk to him because I didn't get a chance to talk to him earlier because I got arrested on whim. Today. I just want to talk to Tony and get a little bit of Casey. You have to tell me if you know anything about Kaylee. Sweetheart, anything happens with Kaylee, Casey, I'll die. Don't understand. I'll die if anything happens to that baby. Oh, my God. Calling you guys a waste. Huge waste.

[Emily]

It actually makes me sick, that part of the call.

[Hannah]

Yeah. I feel sick and sad at the same time. Skiff's sad. Christina sounds nice.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Christina sounds like a mother in anguish.

[Emily]

Yeah. She's like, if anything happens to that Baby, I'll die. And Casey goes, oh, wow. Oh, my God. Are you fucking serious? It's unbelievable.

[Hannah]

Why are you inconveniencing me with your emotions?

[Emily]

Get me Tony's number. I need to talk to my boyfriend. So her only concern at this point is not finding out where Kayleigh is, not figuring any of that out. She needs to explain to her boyfriend what's really going on so that he doesn't, you know, freak out that his girlfriend's been arrested. It's shocking.

[Hannah]

Yeah, yeah, it truly, truly is. So this call is made from a jail which the police can obviously hear. They have recordings. They are aware that all of this has gone on. So obviously, given how batshit fucking mental that call was, it set off major alarm bells in the police station. Who was this Tony character? And why did Casey need to speak to him quite so urgently? And just in case you'd forgotten, dear listener, dear sausage, dear spooky bitch, Tony is, of course, Tony Lazzaro, Casey's boyfriend of but a few weeks. He's not Kayleigh's dad.

[Emily]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's a new boyfriend.

[Hannah]

He's brand new.

[Emily]

Exactly. So obviously, after listening to that phone call and given the urgency that Casey showed in wanting to speak to Tony, the police are highly suspicious of this Tony character. They think that he's involved somehow. So the police track him down and turn up at his house. And Tony Lazaro, honestly, his life, he doesn't take part in any of these documentaries and take part in anything. And I don't blame him because his life was dragged through the fucking shit because of this case. I'm gonna say it out now, like, I don't think Tony had anything to do with fucking anything.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I think I'm probably on your team there.

[Emily]

He's just like a stoner college kid. That's what Tony Lazaro is. Right? So Tony hasn't got a fucking clue what's going on. And according to him, Casey and he had started dating in, like, the end of 2008. They used to hang out his watch TV and go partying together. Tony, aside from being a student, was also a Florida club promoter who ran classic club nights such as. That's Dope Fridays.

[Hannah]

I have a confession to make.

[Emily]

Well, you've been to that Stoke Fridays?

[Hannah]

No, it's worse. When I was a student, I promoted club nights.

[Emily]

What's the best named one?

[Hannah]

Fuck me. It's Freshers.

[Emily]

Excellent.

[Hannah]

I thought that would be a really good idea to, like, meet people, make friends.

[Emily]

Yeah, that is a great idea.

[Hannah]

Unless you go to soass, where nobody wants to go to fuck me. It's freshers. They want to go and learn Iraqi dancing. So I made no friends.

[Emily]

Oh, mate.

[Hannah]

Actually, it was worse because I tried to fly this guy and he ripped up the flyer in front of me and he was like, I'm really not used to girls giving me flyers as they fuck me on them.

[Emily]

Yeah, not with that attitude. You should be so lucky.

[Hannah]

It was so embarrassing that I just deleted the. Like, my boss's number, basically, and I didn't even pick up my money.

[Emily]

No, do you know what? He's embarrassing. Those students are embarrassing. Call yourself a fucking student? Get in the bin. I hate it.

[Hannah]

Yeah, yeah, it was actually. I've just been overwhelmed with a wave of anxiety just even telling you. It was so awful. But, you know, we grow, we move.

[Emily]

I hate that guy.

[Hannah]

Yeah. No, I can see his face so clearly. And then I was in a tutorial with him for the rest of the year, mate. Yeah, it was bad. It was really bad. I was sweating.

[Emily]

I'm never gonna complain about my uni ever again. Ever again. Jesus, these people. Shut up.

[Hannah]

Yeah, yeah, it was bad.

[Emily]

So after three weeks of Tony and Casey's love affair, apparently Casey had introduced him to her daughter, Cayleigh. And then Tony said that after the introduction that Kaylee would basically come to the house about three times a week with her mum. Tony and his housemate both said that as far as they could see, Casey had been a great mum, that she and Katy had a really strong relationship and that she really looked after her. And this is the thing, I think sometimes people do want to. Because Casey Anthony is such an unlikable character, they do want to ignore anything that could be slightly positive. And as far as all of her friends and Tony and his housemate, with who she spent the majority of her time and probably where she spent most of her days when she was pretending to be at work, said that Kayleigh was incredibly intelligent, she was taught a lot by Casey, and that Casey wouldn't allow anyone to smoke around her. Like, she was a good mum. Visibly.

[Hannah]

Right.

[Emily]

During that time, as far as everyone could tell. And then, and this is according to Tony, apparently in about mid March. So about six weeks before the police turned up at his door, Casey, who had still been coming over daily, suddenly stopped bringing Caylee with her. And this ties in with the timeline of Cayleigh's disappearance as told by Casey. But interestingly, Casey never even once mentioned to Tony, her boyfriend the love of her life, the man she has to speak to urgently that Cayleigh was missing or that she'd been kidnapped by her fucking nanny. She spent the next 31 days at this guy's house and never said that. And this is the man that she basically moved in with for the month that Cayley was missing. And Tony tells all this to the police.

[Hannah]

And according to Tony, during that time, Casey hadn't seemed sad or concerned or worried about anything. She'd been in the time of her life. She doesn't have to go to work. She can just smoke weed all the time.

[Emily]

No kid to look after.

[Hannah]

Living the life. So now the police were absolutely convinced that Casey had done something to Cayleigh. And their suspicions were only confirmed when they examined the car that had been picked up by the Anthony's from the impound lot. As soon as the detectives walked into the garage, it was being kept in. The smell of death and decomposition hit them right in the face. Which, if you've ever smelled it, if you ever walked past a disemboweled dead fox, you know what that smell is, and it smells like nothing else. A cadaver dog was brought in. And in a move that surprised absolutely no one, the dog alerted its handler to the boot of the car.

[Emily]

Let's explain. Boot equals trunk. I won't say trunk. It's boot.

[Hannah]

When police examined the boot of the car, it was definitely where the overwhelming smell was emanating from. But you could also tell that someone had tried very hard to clean the car out. But try as they may have done, they did not do a particularly good job because on the carpet of the boot, there was a massive dark stain. Forensics also managed to collect several human hairs from the boot.

[Emily]

So when the stain on the carpet was tested, it was found to have very high levels of chloroform present. All the hairs that were found in the car were also DNA tested. The problem was that the hairs that were found didn't have, like, the root, the follicle. The follicle, I feel like, is the follicle, the bit in the head. So anyway, they didn't have the bud, whatever it is that comes out of the head with the hair, if it's pulled. And because of this, the hair could only be tested for mitochondrial DNA. And this type of DNA, we've talked about it before, is the type of DNA that's passed from the maternal side. And so analysis of the hairs that were found in the boot were only able to tell detectives that it either belonged to Cindy, Casey or Cayleigh, which.

[Hannah]

Considering their family car, is no good to fucking anyone.

[Emily]

It's not. The other thing they were able to tell, though, the colour of the hair, which was like a sort of soft brown, the length of the hair. And also the fact that the hair hadn't been treated, so it had never been dyed or bleached. And both Cindy and Casey. Casey has dyed hair and Cindy has bleached hair, led them to conclude that it was most likely going to be Kayleigh's. The hair also showed banding. And this is something we haven't come across before.

[Hannah]

No. So educate me, Dr. Bala.

[Emily]

So PMRB is post mortem root band. And apparently after someone dies, if you observe hair under a microscope, you will see an opaque band, like a dark band that runs near the root areas of the hair on a decomposing body. So if you compare hair pulled like from a living person or pulled from a dead person where decompass started, you will see like a black band along the head, Right on the hair. Right. And it's not well understood. They actually don't understand why this happens. So I can't tell you guys why that happens. But what I can say is that you're not going to see that banding on hair where the body hasn't started to decompose.

[Hannah]

Aha. Okay.

[Emily]

It's called post mortem root band.

[Hannah]

So not only can they make the logical assumption via a process of hair. It's a bit of a Legally Blonde moment, isn't it, of hair dyeing elimination. They know it's a dead person's hair, so they know that it is most likely to be Kayleigh's hair. And the person the hair belonged to.

[Emily]

Is dead, was in the stages of decomposition in the car and in the car because the hair or the hairs were found in the boot. So the connection they're making is exactly what you just said, Hannah, that Kayleigh's dead. Mitochondrial DNA will only take us so far, but because of the treatment of the hair, we can assume it's her. The banding shows that it came from the head of somebody who was decomposing and they were found in the boot of the car. So they're saying that says we can say that Cayleigh is dead and she was in the boot of this car. So the car really does become a key piece of evidence. And in fact, George Anthony Casey's dad, he was an ex police officer, which just makes this whole thing get better and better. And when the car. Because remember, he and Cindy Go pick up the car first. And he actually told the police. He took them aside and told the police that he had bad vibes when he'd got the car back. George also told police, and this recorded in a fucking police interview, where this is headed. I don't like it. I don't want to believe that I could have raised someone who could have hurt another person. George Anthony breaks my heart in this entire. They fucking just destroy this man. I just. My heart breaks for him.

[Hannah]

By now, investigators had also heard the third call that Cindy Anthony had made on the night of the 15th of July. And they had heard her say, the car smells like there's been a damn dead body in there. Just a little fun fact for you. Cindy Anthony is a registered nurse, which means she would have known exactly what human decomposition smells like. She'd even worked in a morgue. So, yeah.

[Emily]

So ex cop and nurse pick up a car and they're both like, smells like there's been a dead body in here. I don't think you can get much better than that.

[Hannah]

No, I don't either. Cindy doesn't seem to see that as a particular problem because she admits the fact that she's a nurse and she knows what a dead person smells like. She tells that straight to the police. But when they press her about the statement she made about the smell of death on the 911 call, Cindy changes her mind.

[Emily]

This is where the U turns begin.

[Hannah]

From Cindy, the lady is very much for turning, it would seem. Cindy now said that smells like there's been a dead body in there is just a turn of phrase, which it is. But when there has actually been a dead body in there, that is quite a specific thing to say.

[Emily]

This is the thing, though. They don't have the evidence to prove that there's been a dead body in there. They have the hairs, they have the stain. They can't prove it. They can't definitively prove there's been a dead body in there. Yeah, but we heard the phone call from Cindy Anthony. It does not sound like it's a turn a phrase. She also later says when they call bullshit on that, she says, I said it because no one had come to the house after two hours of me calling the police. And I said it as a way to get somebody there immediately.

[Hannah]

So, yeah, she's just saying that, you know, whether there really was a dead body or whether it was just a really horrible smell. There was a horrible smell. And Cindy felt like she had to explain that somehow. And she chooses to explain it. By saying the smell must have come from the bag of rubbish that had been in the boot of the car. When the Anthony's picked up the car there had indeed been a load of rubbish and a half eaten pizza in the back and they decided that that must have been the source of the odour. I do not have the tidiest car in the world. I think having a car is like having a giant handbag. I would never leave half a pizza in my car. That is absolutely vile. If you've ever done that, you're going to jail.

[Emily]

Well, this is the thing. Basically when they pick it up from the impound lot, there's like a bag in the back just like torn open rubbish, half eaten pizza, maggots, whatever. How it gets there is an interesting part of this story because where the car was picked up by it was next to a bunch of massive bins. So I suspect what happened. Casey Anthony tries very hard to clean up this mess. She realized she can't get rid of the smell. We'll talk about what our theories are.

[Hannah]

Oh, okay.

[Emily]

She picks some bin bags out of the rubbish, sticks it in there hoping that will mask the smell of decomposition and death and that she'll be able to explain away the smell that way.

[Hannah]

Okay, that makes sense.

[Emily]

And that's not a hot take. That's like quite a common theory that is out there.

[Hannah]

But still I won't believe for one second that registered nurse Cindy Anthony would be confusing the smell of a mouldy pizza and some maggots to that of a literal dead body. So I think it's pretty safe to assume at this stage in the game that Cindy Anthony, Casey Anthony's mum, knew by this stage that something had probably happened to Cayley and that Casey knew what it was and was involved in it. But Cindy can't face up to it. And like she's done so many times before, Cindy fell into her default mode of protecting her daughter Casey at all costs.

[Emily]

So let's take a little look at the relationship between Cindy and Casey Anthony because like I said, I think it's very interesting and I also think it's very important in understanding both of these women's behaviour. In this case, in all of the documentaries, Cindy claims that she and Casey were super close. Making out like it was one big lovey dovey family. And I'm sure you know, to give Cindy some credit, that that's what most people would do. No one's going to sit there and air their dirty laundry in front of the world. You're always going to put the best face on. But the thing is, it's just not really true. When she was 17, Casey was about to graduate from high school. As far as her family knew anyway. But in actual fact, Casey hadn't been going to class for quite some time. And on the day of her graduation, the school had called the Anthony's and told them that because of this, because Casey hadn't been turning up to class, that Casey wouldn't actually be graduating.

[Hannah]

I have a recurring stress stream that is the same thing. It's usually that I have mixed up my scheduling on my timetable so I need to do. It's always a chemistry module. And I never go, I never go to this chemistry module. And then I'm terrified that I'm never going to graduate from university. And it always takes me a good 20 seconds when I wake up to remind myself that I'm 31 and I've had a degree for quite some time and it had nothing to do with chemistry.

[Emily]

There you go. Very similar to what Casey's actual situation was.

[Hannah]

Yes.

[Emily]

Because when her parents confronted Casey with this, she just blamed the school. She said that they had mixed up her timetables and that she'd been accidentally missing classes because they double booked her. That's why they were telling them that she hadn't been going to classes. It was all the school's fault. Now I don't think Cindy's stupid. She's not stupid. She knew her daughter. But I also think that Cindy. I will not think I know because of what happens next. Appearances are very important to Cindy. So she told Casey to carry on as normal, accept her graduation gifts from friends and family and just to tell everyone that she'd graduated. So they don't like hold her accountable.

[Hannah]

Someone I went to university's parents did that.

[Emily]

Yeah, they don't hold her accountable. They're not like, well, you're just gonna have to go to those classes you mixed. Even if you want to be like, whoever's fault it was, you need to sort this now because you're literally not going to graduate from. We don't do that here. But I think it's a big thing in America. No one gave me a fucking present for leaving secondary school. But anyway, like she won't graduate. And they don't make her go back and do it. They just say, tell everybody you did. Mm.

[Hannah]

The girl, similar thing that did that at university. Her parents actually staged a false graduation shoot so she could send pictures to her family. Wow. Yeah. Parenting.

[Emily]

We're not A million miles away from this because the Anthony's actually threw Casey a big congratulations party and buried the whole thing.

[Hannah]

Soon after this pretend graduation party When Casey was 19 years old, she started putting on some weight, particularly around her stomach and reproductive area.

[Emily]

On her uterus.

[Hannah]

On her uterus. Her uterus was getting extremely heavy with life. In the documentaries they make it sound like Casey just went and told her mum that she was pregnant. And it was all lovely and magical and everyone loved each other and held hands together. In reality, according to actual family members like my homeboy, Casey's brother Lee, who I think is the only person in this situation who has his head screwed on at all. Leigh says that Katie actually hid the pregnancy for as long as she possibly could. And when Cindy found out because she is not an idiot, and secondly a nurse, that both Cindy and Casey joined forces and continued to lie about the pregnancy. At family parties people would congratulate Casey on the baby. But then she and Cindy would both pretend that Casey was just bleeding, bloated. Of course she wasn't. On 9 August 2005, Casey Anthony gave birth to a little girl that she named Caylee Marie Anthony. This makes me very uncomfortable, she says. So at the hospital when Casey is giving birth to Cayleigh, Cindy was the first person to hold her granddaughter.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Hannah]

That is gross.

[Emily]

Who the fuck allowed that?

[Hannah]

I don't know. I do not know.

[Emily]

But I can imagine Cindy. Look, I know Cindy is also a victim in this. Like she's lost her granddaughter. But we can't ignore the backstory or the relationship between the two of them.

[Hannah]

Cindy doesn't hide the fact that she's done this. She actually says in one of the documentaries that she did feel a little bit guilty, but she just couldn't help it. Just had to hold her. It was like having Casey all over again.

[Emily]

The level of like.

[Hannah]

I mean there is a Facebook group called Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers and it is full of stuff like that. Like wearing white to a wedding day, stealing children, making a parent feel guilty for not giving the grandchild to them essentially. Honestly, it's absolutely brimming with stuff like that.

[Emily]

And presumably appearances, appearances, appearances. So you can see here just from those two examples that we know about, that there is a lot of enabling behavior going on. They never hold Casey accountable. And I really couldn't help but think, and again, I don't think Cindy was involved in anything. I think she is absolutely devastated by the loss of her granddaughter. That is absolutely clear to see. But I couldn't help thinking during some of the phone calls, during some of the jail visits, which we'll go on to listen to at the end of this episode, when Casey is speaking to her mother in the way she speaks to her, that it's the sound of a monster eating its creator.

[Hannah]

Yes. I think that is spot on.

[Casey Anthony]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So the other question that does get talked about a lot in this case is, who was Kayleigh's father? We don't actually know. Casey said at first that it was a man named Jesse Grund, who she was in a relationship with for the majority of her pregnancy, but it turns out it wasn't him. She then said it was another man who later died in a car accident, also turned out to not be him. And to this day, we don't know who Cayleigh's father was or is. After Cayleigh was born, Casey and Cayleigh both lived with Casey's parents in Orlando. And from the outside, I think the situation looked pretty normal for the next two years. The only thing is, obviously, we know, listeners and us, that for those two years after Cayleigh was born, Casey just been pretending to go to work. So once again, I just think her being able to tolerate that level of deception is unbelievable.

[Hannah]

Yep. On top of this deceit upon lies upon confusion, Casey was also stealing from her parents, her brother, and her friends all of the time because she had no job, which famously means you have no money. But Casey couldn't ask for money because everyone thought that she had a job. But obviously, most people knew that something was off. Even Cindy admits in the first 911 call that the stealing had been going on for quite some time.

[Emily]

Again, it's just like the level of willingness they all have to just bury their heads in the sand. Why is your daughter stealing money if she has this big job? She doesn't. And you know that. They know that, but they're just like, well, I'm just gonna fucking think what I want to think. I'm just gonna see what I want to see.

[Hannah]

Yeah, no, exactly. Print the myth.

[Emily]

Yes, live. The myth is the fucking words on the doormat at the Anthony household.

[Hannah]

Print the myth. I'm gonna get that on my doormat. At the moment, it's just hedgehogs, which my sister thinks is juvenile, but she can shut up. So some parts of the life at the Anthony's family home was true. However, how difficult it may be for you to believe at this stage in the game, in the evening, Cindy and George, or Cece and Jojo, as Caylee called her grandparents would dote on the little girl. And I think that it was in order to avoid losing little Cayleigh and to avoid losing faith socially that Cindy and George allowed all of Casey's bullshit to continue. I mean, it's a golden sword of Damocles to be holding over your parents, isn't it?

[Emily]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She'd literally come home from work and be like, do you want some, like, grandma time? Here you go. I've been with her all day while you thought I was at work.

[Hannah]

Yeah, right. And now I'm gonna go off and smoke weed.

[Emily]

Again with the weed smoking. I do want to make this point just because we'll go on to see next week that they make a big deal of, like, Casey drinking a lot, partying a lot, smoking weed, blah, blah, blah. That's actually not who Casey was like when she was a teenager. She was actually the mother of the group is how all of her friends described her, and that's how she was known. She was actually often the designated driver when they went out. She wasn't a partier, really. She didn't actually even smoke weed. Those things started or were starting around this time. We'll talk about that more next week. We have to be fair about these situations. And she wasn't a big partier prior. So if you think all of this is not weird and enabling enough, let's listen to our next clip, because I think it really shows you the level of dysfunction in the family, and it shows you kind of the dynamics, I think, very clearly. And the clips we're about to listen to are from a jail visit between Cindy, George, and Casey after she's been in custody for about two weeks. Hi.

[Casey Anthony]

Hi, sweetie. We've been watching you for so long.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Casey Anthony]

I love you. I love you, too. Hi. We've been seeing you sitting down. Okay. I was talking with one of the doctors. We forgive anything that you've said or done.

[Emily]

Hold on.

[Casey Anthony]

Can we turn the volume down? Yeah, you can probably hear it. My head's gonna explode. I haven't said anything.

[Emily]

Don't worry.

[Casey Anthony]

It is kind of loud. Okay. Is that better? Casey? Yeah? Can you hear me? Just a little bit more. Yeah, that's good, honey. Yeah, that's perfect. Are you okay? Yeah, I'm good. I just talked to Lee. I know, he told me. Yeah. We got cut off within our last minute, but we at least got a chance to cover a lot of stuff in our hour, so that's good. What's that T shirt? I Didn't get a chance to ask him. You know, other things. Kaylee's picture's on the back. Is it can die? Yes. Show me the shirt. Turn around so you can see. It's the Never Lose Hope Foundation. Do you see it? I can see part of it, yeah. Have you seen me? And then it has the information on how to contact.

[Hannah]

Okay.

[Casey Anthony]

Casey, you don't realize the whole United States is looking for Kaylee. I know that one. Her cover is going to be on People magazine a few days. Okay? Everybody is looking for her. Everybody is looking for her. Are we going to be able to find her, do you think? I hope we can, Mom. Now, I didn't get a chance to ask. Lee, can you look up a little bit more? Raise your eyes up a little bit. There you go. Now look straight up so I can look into your eyes, darling. Thank. You know I need to do that. Please look up, sweetheart. I need to see your eyes. I want to be able to look at you guys, too. I can't look at you and look at the camera. Well, you don't have to look at the camera. Look at me. I'm looking at you.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Casey Anthony]

You're sitting very low. I know. Your head's about this much in the tv.

[Emily]

I know. Again, the lack of emotion. People deal with stuff differently. But her dad's literally wearing a T shirt with a picture of her missing daughter on it. Nothing. She's just like, uh huh, okay. And then I think one of the most telling parts is when Cindy keeps telling her, everyone is looking for Kayleigh. She's gonna be on the front cover of People magazine, which is a fucking massive magazine. And she's like, okay, it's a national good. And then I don't know if you saw there was. I will post the video linked so you guys can watch this. I've watched it a fucking million times and it's like an hour and a half long, but it's worth it. When she says that, Casey goes. She sounds irritated that people are looking. She sounds annoyed. She doesn't sound like, oh, thank God, you can be on the front cover of People Are Looking. Great. This is what we need to do. This is where we need to be focusing. This is who we need to speak to. She's like, okay, fine. Okay, good. She sounds worried, she sounds inconvenienced. And I think this becomes quite a repetitive part. And you'll definitely hear more of this in the next clips when Cindy says to Casey, are we going to be able to find her? Do you Think. What does that sound like? Why would you ask that? How would she know if she's got nothing to do with it? Are we going to be able to find her, do you think?

[Hannah]

I think as a mother, which obviously I'm not, but the way I envision that situation going is if your daughter is in jail for something she didn't do, she's innocent and you know it, wouldn't you be reassuring her? Wouldn't you be like, it's gonna be fine. We're going to find her. You wouldn't be like, do you think we can find her?

[Emily]

We'll find whoever took her. We'll get you out. We'll get you out. Yeah, there is some of that. This call, like I said, it goes on for about an hour and a half and it flip flops between them reassuring her and joking about and like her making jokes about, like eating bologna or whatever. To these moments that are very clear to me that the Anthony's are like, we know you did it.

[Hannah]

Right.

[Emily]

But also something very telling that listen out for in the next clips is it's just they pussyfoot around it, they tiptoe around it. They never want to confront her outright. Why, like, why would a parent be scared of a child that's a person who has had a violent temper? Yeah.

[Hannah]

Oh, my God, yeah.

[Emily]

Why would they be scared of her like this?

[Hannah]

Because she's manipulative. Because she's probably made their lives a living hell. All of those things.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

A lot of people are scared of their children.

[Emily]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And also the thing that's weird and again, linked to parents knowing what type of child they've got, when Cindy keeps saying, you know, I need to. I need to look in your eyes when you're talking to me. That is a mother who thinks that their child is a liar.

[Hannah]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Emily]

I'm not reading too much into that, am I? Why does she keep saying it? She keeps saying it. No, look in the camera.

[Hannah]

It's been addressed before.

[Casey Anthony]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

You know why I have to. Because you lie all the fucking time.

[Emily]

Exactly.

[Hannah]

And I can only tell if I'm looking directly into your brain.

[Emily]

And I can tell. So let's listen to the next.

[Casey Anthony]

All I'm trying to do is find Kaylee for both of us. Oh, I know. For all of us. And I'll do whatever it takes. I feel the exact same way. That's exactly what I've been saying. I don't care what I have to do. When I told them, I would lie, I would steal, I would do whatever, by any means to get her back. That's exactly how I feel. It's the truth. Casey, we have to find her before her third birthday. Mom, I know. That's coming up fast.

[Emily]

I know.

[Casey Anthony]

We have a couple weeks. I don't want to wait another minute, let alone. I don't want to wait another minute. I want. I want her to be found. Whether I'm still stuck in here or not. I don't care. I think once she's found, then you can tell everybody what you know and you'll be released. Don't you think? Potentially. I don't know. Yuri has it set in his mind that I've done something. Well, he thinks. He thinks you guys did something to Kaylee. Hey, can you hold on for a second? Yeah. Well, don't waste our time. I'm not going to. I'll be right back. Why would she do that.

[Emily]

Again? It's not them saying, casey, tell us more about the nanny. They do go on and do that later, but I get. I don't believe them when they're asking her about the nanny. They're like, we need to find her before her third birthday. Do you think we're going to be able to do that? I want her back now, Casey. They're talking to her like she's got her because they know she knows. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Yeah. Don't waste our time.

[Emily]

Yeah. Yeah. And then she's like, well, Leigh thinks I've done something. And it's like, he thinks you guys have done something to Kayleigh. And they are convinced. There's also parts of this interview where you can tell that the parents think that Tony was involved because they say Tony has admitted to the police that there were drugs there. So. So what they think has happened, I think they believe this to the end, or they want to believe this to this day, is that Cayleigh was at Tony's house, put something in her mouth, died, and they covered it up to not have to deal with it. And they keep talking about that. You can hear. They're not like, where else should we be looking?

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Emily]

They're like, you tell us, Casey. I want her back before her third birthday. It's really heartbreaking when Cindy says that he thinks you guys have done something. She just gets up and walks off for three minutes.

[Hannah]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's worth pointing out for the people listening at home. Yeah. She fully. As soon as that sentence finishes, she's just like, wait a second.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And then she just leaves.

[Emily]

She leaves. And I counted it. It was for three minutes. And Cindy says, why would she do that? And apparently she says something like, for her own protection. When there's like rotation of calls going. Casey's in protective custody, so she's taken away from everybody while the phone rotation is happening. But it is quite a convenient time.

[Hannah]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Emily]

Okay, let's listen to this next bit. This bit is Casey talking to George, her father.

[Casey Anthony]

I know this might be a tough thing to answer. No, go ahead. But did you borrow something from anyone or remove it without their permission that Kaylee might be in help for? No.

[Emily]

I know that's a tough question, sweetie, but I just need to ask.

[Casey Anthony]

It's. It's not a tough question, Dad. I mean, mom knows the stuff that I had taken from her. We discussed that, you know, on numerous occasions. And with Amy, you know, I mean, I. I feel guilty about that.

[Emily]

I feel extremely so when she's talking about with Amy, I feel extremely guilty about that. That is a friend of the family's that Casey stole her checkbook and wrote herself a bunch of checks. Ah, yeah. So basically she has a long history of stealing money, stealing checks, stealing cars, whatever she needs to, because obviously she doesn't have a fucking job. And you can hear very clearly George is being like, has Kayleigh been taken because of something you've done? Again, they're not like, we know it's not you. Yeah, they're like, we think it's you. We just don't know why.

[Casey Anthony]

But I was under a time of desperation.

[Detective Melish]

What do you mean?

[Casey Anthony]

What do you mean by that?

[Detective Melish]

With a time of desperation?

[Casey Anthony]

I don't understand. Like I said to you. Well, I said to mom and Lee and I have spoken and he advised me of something which is very smart. Written contact will be better than anything that's going to be recorded since we can't speak openly freely in person. Okay, well, I don't want to take time then going into anything else. And I just. I want, you know, is there something that I can do for you, sweetie?

[Detective Melish]

I mean, I want you out of here.

[Casey Anthony]

I know. I want me out of here too, is quickly as possible. But at the same time, I know that until we get the bond lowered as much as possible, which is probably going to take a lot. The police aren't going to drop any charges. That's pretty evident.

[Detective Melish]

Well, can I share something with you?

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Detective Melish]

The longer and longer this drags on.

[Casey Anthony]

The harder it's going to be.

[Emily]

There's going to be maybe additional things.

[Detective Melish]

That might hit everyone. And I don't want to get into that with you.

[Casey Anthony]

But it's.

[Detective Melish]

It's getting very, very crucial that we've.

[Cindy Anthony]

Got to get you out of here.

[Emily]

If I could get you out of here right now, I would.

[Detective Melish]

But I want Kaylee back, too.

[Casey Anthony]

That again, Kaylee is my concern. If I have to stay in here outside of that, if I can get out and then have to come back, you know, I'll deal with whatever I have to myself. That in regard to me, I want to be out. I want you to know I want to take your pain away from you. So you can tell me anything. I know that, Dad. I miss you, sweetie. I know that. I miss you, too.

[Emily]

I wish I could have been a better dad. And better grandpa.

[Casey Anthony]

You know, you've been a great dad. And you've been the best grandfather. Don't for a second think otherwise. Well, you know, you and mom have been the greatest, best grandparents. Kaylee's been so lucky. Kaylee is so lucky to have both of you. I can't even put into words how glad I am that she's had both of you and that she still has both of you. You know, it goes without saying, you know, that our house is empty without.

[Emily]

Both of you there.

[Casey Anthony]

It's empty. All the little things we took for granted.

[Detective Melish]

We miss them so, so much.

[Casey Anthony]

That's exactly how I feel.

[Emily]

All your little things and all her little things.

[Casey Anthony]

It hurts we're not there. Good to say. We gotta support each other from here on. Or at least spent a moment with you the day of the hearing.

[Detective Melish]

Four hours a day, you know.

[Casey Anthony]

You know, I got threatened the other day by Detective Melich about they were going to send a squad car to visit Grandpa regarding the date because it's the 15th that, you know, we tape recorded Grandpa and I felt just a teeny bit of what you may be going through, Casey, about trying to protect someone that you love so much. So I want you to know I don't know where you're coming from as far as I don't know the circumstances, but I know the mother that you are and the person that you are. And I know you're doing whatever you need to do to protect. I hope you're just protecting Kaylee. Don't worry again about protecting your dad or me or Lee. You understand? Yes, we can. We can handle anything.

[Hannah]

This sounds like a case for the grammar detective.

[Emily]

Which bits? I'm so lost because she.

[Hannah]

She mixes up tenses.

[Emily]

Oh, sorry. Yeah. No, that I. I'm overwhelmed.

[Hannah]

I'm overwhelmed.

[Emily]

Yeah. I don't even Know where to fucking begin with this. Let's talk about the mixes. Because she says it. She says, keep saying it. I'm so glad she had you. I'm so glad she had you. And then she catches herself immediately and then says, and I'm so glad she still has you again. She instinctively knows to fix it, and she does it three times, which is very telling. And again, I feel like the. Anthony's fucking. They're giving it everything. They're trying every. I love George, mate. George. I just feel. He just absolutely breaks my fucking heart, honestly. But again, you just have them being like. When Cindy is saying stuff about the police going to her father, so Casey's granddad's house and threatening to go and question him and stuff. And she's like, I feel how you might be feeling. Are you trying to protect somebody? Again, they're like, are you protecting Tony? Like, this is the narrative. And again, George being like, you can tell me anything. They know it's her. And again, I just want everybody to remember all of these phone calls for next week's episode, particularly similarly, Cindy saying, if you are protecting somebody, you don't need to protect me. You don't need to protect your dad. You don't need to protect Lee. Remember that next week, I've just got one final clip, and then we're gonna wrap it up today because it's fucking making my head hurt. And I think this particular clip, I am gonna load the dice before I let you hear it, because I'm gonna tell you what I think it means. But listen to what Cindy is saying. Really listen to what Cindy is saying. And remember to keep in your mind when you listen to what Cindy is saying that Casey has told her already. Stop asking me certain questions. Because anybody could see this. Anybody could watch this, because they will. Leigh has said we should write everything to each other in letters. Casey tells them that. Casey tells them that during this call. So just think about what the subtext is of this part of the call.

[Casey Anthony]

You have to keep. Think positive. Positive feelings. Casey. Oh, I know I have been. I've been staying as positive as I can. But do you think after this long, she'd still be local? There's a possibility. What's your gut telling you right now? You have the claim that she's okay. Okay. And your gut tells you that she's close or some. She's.

[Cindy Anthony]

She's hiding.

[Casey Anthony]

She's not far. I know in my heart she's not far. I can feel it. Okay.

[Hannah]

I think that's a code yeah, Groundbreaking.

[Emily]

She's like. What Cindy's trying to do here is reassure herself that Casey is okay and that she's nearby and something. And she's like, what is your gut telling you? Is she local? How the fuck would she know that if the nanny's taken her? How the fuck would Casey know that?

[Hannah]

To be fair, though, there are multiple, multiple, multiple interviews with what's her face, McCann, where she's like, I know she's alive. I can feel it.

[Emily]

Oh, that I can give. It's not what Casey even says.

[Cindy Anthony]

No.

[Emily]

It's like questioning.

[Hannah]

But where is she? Okay. Where is she doing the being okay?

[Emily]

Casey, what does your gut tell you? Yeah, yeah, no, no. I can absolutely understand a mother saying that. I know in my heart my child is still alive. I know in my gut my child is still alive. No one is going to ask that, mother. No, but where do you think she's still alive? What's your gut telling you? Mother's intuition. Of course. I believe that's a true.

[Hannah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

But nobody in an investigation.

[Hannah]

No, that's very true.

[Emily]

He's going to be like, got. We've got nothing. What's your gut telling you, Mum?

[Hannah]

That's actually. I hadn't thought about it like that. It is information that is offered up freely. It is not questioned.

[Emily]

Yes, yes. It is not something that you ask for when your granddaughter is missing.

[Hannah]

No.

[Emily]

And the fact that Cindy is asking that is. Again, I think it's Cindy being like, tell me she's okay. Tell me without telling me that she's okay.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And that's it. So, guys, that is where we're gonna fucking call it. The Day Today, Part one of Casey Anthony. We'll be back next week, Part two.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So stay tuned for that.

[Hannah]

You can find us here every week and then also every week over on Spotify at our other show called Sinister Societies, which is a spot of hacks. Clear them. We talk about cults and shit. So go over there and have a listen to that. It really helps us out. So if you could do that. And also the show is bagging. We're having a good time. And you can be a patron and you can come to our Christmas party, which is probably next week. By the time you're listening to this. And you can do that patreon.com and.

[Emily]

Also remember that we're doing the annual flash sale in addition for that top of the show, I realized I was like, next week, I don't fucking know.

[Hannah]

It's top of the show. Top of the show. So we'll see you next week for part two and the last episode of 2021. Because I nearly said 2020 then, because we are taking two weeks off over Christmas because if we don't we will go quite literally insane and have to go and live in some sort of protected institution. And nobody wants that because there'll be no Remora red handed ever. So two weeks off, no main show, no under the Dubai. But we'll be back with an enormous bang in the first week of January. Yes.

[Emily]

And they'll still be in the news and the bonus episode for this month, so don't worry about that. And if you're like I need some red handed, go listen to sinister societies. It's basically the same thing. How many times have you wished you could be in two places at once? With wix, you practically can. Wix's website builder is packed with powerful AI tools to make running your business online easier. Build a full site just by talking with AI, get an AI agent to manage your sales and marketing, or work like a 10 person team, even if it's just you. So you don't need superpowers to get everything done, you just need Wix. Try it now for [e-mail] how hard is it to kill a planet? Maybe all it takes is a little drilling, some mining, and a whole lot of carbon pumped into the atmosphere. When you see what's left, it starts to look like a crime scene.

[Cindy Anthony]

Are we really safe?

[Hannah]

Is our water safe? You destroyed our tap.

[Emily]

And crimes like that, they don't just happen. We call things accidents. There is no accident accident.

[Hannah]

This was 100% preventable.

[Emily]

They're the result of choices by people. Ruthless oil tycoons, corrupt politicians, even organized crime. These are the stories we need to be telling about our changing planet. Stories of scams, murders and coverups that.

[Hannah]

Are about us and the things we're.

[Emily]

Doing to either protect the earth or destroy it. Follow Lawless Planet on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes of.

[Hannah]

Lawless Planet early and ad free right.

[Emily]

Now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.