OJ Simpson - Part Two: The Gloves Are Off | #430

Summary

Podcast Summary

RedHanded – OJ Simpson Part Two: The Gloves Are Off | #430

Date: December 18, 2025
Hosts: Hannah & Suruthi

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Episode Overview

The final RedHanded episode of 2025 is the long-awaited conclusion to their deep dive into the O.J. Simpson case—the murder trial that transfixed America and forever altered perceptions of the justice system, celebrity, police racism, and media spectacle. Picking up from Part One, the hosts recount the dramatic trial proceedings and surreal aftermath, zeroing in on the prosecution’s “slam dunk” evidence unraveling due to catastrophic errors, naked jury manipulation, and the infamous moment the glove didn’t fit. The episode is bursting with biting commentary, dark humor, and moments of real outrage and disbelief.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Recap and Case Setup

• The hosts immediately remind listeners they are in no way entertaining the possibility of O.J. Simpson's innocence (“O.J. Simpson done did it and now he done dead so he can't get me.” – [03:41] A).
• Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman were brutally murdered between 10–11pm June 13, 1994; forensic evidence (blood, glove, hat, footprints) pointed directly to Simpson ([05:33] B).
• The defense, dubbed the Dream Team, knew they couldn’t win on evidence and instead went for an all-out attack on the credibility of the prosecution and LAPD ([08:17] A, [08:38] B).

2. The Dream Team’s Strategy and the Prosecution’s Pitfalls

• Defense’s approach: Sow doubt by smearing the police and highlighting systemic racism—especially through Mark Fuhrman, a detective with a history of documented racism ([17:05] B, [18:23] A).
• Prosecution (Marcia Clark and Christopher Darden) believed the overwhelming evidence would be enough: “They thought the evidence speaks for itself. But that only works if the jury are actually listening.” ([10:32] B)
• Jury manipulation was central: The defense played to racial divisions and jury exhaustion, not the facts.

3. Key Witnesses & Evidence

• Alan Park (Simpson’s limo driver) provided a crucial timeline, placing Simpson away, then suddenly seen entering his home just before leaving for his flight ([11:24] B–[13:06] B).
• The vanished duffel bag, presumed to hold the bloody murder clothes, was never found ([13:06] B).
• The “Rockingham Glove” (right-hand glove with victims’ blood) was discovered by Mark Fuhrman, which backfired spectacularly for prosecution when his racism was exposed ([15:13] A–[25:41] B).

4. The Mark Fuhrman Catastrophe

• Marcia Clark presented Fuhrman as a solid witness, not realizing tapes existed of his stunningly racist and misogynist statements ([17:05] B, [22:36] A).
• The Dream Team seized on these tapes, turning the case into a referendum on police racism, especially potent in LA’s post-Rodney King climate ([21:23] B).
• “It’s the equivalent of the blood trail, but for the f***ing defense.” ([23:09] A)
• Fuhrman even maligned Judge Ito's wife on tape, threatening mistrial ([24:03] A).
• The defense now aimed for acquittal, not just a hung jury ([25:49] B).

5. Jury Breakdown and Deliberations

• The jury was heavily sequestered for 266 days, fostering tension and resentment ([27:50] A–[31:09] A).
• Jurors were dismissed for odd reasons—potentially targeted removals orchestrated by the defense ([31:27] B–[33:58] B).
• The Dream Team removed the “most dangerous” juror to their case, perhaps via anonymous letter ([33:09] B).
• Host frustration with the U.S. jury system is palpable: “Even if you were to sequester a jury...there’s too much information. You cannot have an uninformed jury. You cannot guarantee a fair trial.” ([28:48] B)
• Deliberations lasted only THREE hours—average is one day per week of trial ([47:05] B), perfect fodder for a verdict based on expedience, not evidence.

6. Physical Evidence and Trial Theater

• The prosecution’s evidence pile was fatally undermined by one blunder: asking O.J. to try on the infamous gloves in front of the jury. With swollen hands (likely purposefully) and latex gloves underneath, “they didn’t fit.” ([36:43] B)
• “OJ just turns to Johnny Cochran and goes ‘too tight’.” ([38:55] B)
• The hosts stress: the sales receipt and rare nature of the gloves would have been conclusive in itself ([36:43] B–[38:55] B).
• Additional forensics: footprints, hair, and fibers linking O.J. everywhere—but all of it overshadowed by the glove debacle and defense showmanship ([39:10] A).

7. The Role of Race and Public Tensions

• Johnny Cochran’s summation channeled all anger over racist policing, telling the jury: “Are you with the man or are you with the brothers?” while the Dream Team literally wore African pattern ties ([26:15] B, [43:25] B).
• The “if the glove don’t fit, you must acquit” line achieves instant legal meme status ([43:34] A).

8. Verdict and Cultural Backlash

• The not guilty verdict (“we’ve got to protect our own”) was greeted with elation by some and horror by others ([47:59] B).
• Marcia Clark’s “I did everything I could” to Ron Goldman’s sister ([49:04] A).
• O.J. celebrated at home with a publicity-ready party; Shapiro (bitter about being upstaged by Cochran) admitted on TV the defense “played the race card and we played it from the bottom of the deck.” ([49:56] B).
• The hosts muse on how the case did nothing to improve justice for ordinary people in black communities, but only served O.J. ([51:51] B).

9. Aftermath: O.J. in Civil Court and Beyond

• 1997: O.J. found liable in civil suit, ordered to pay $33 million to the Goldmans; he never pays, hiding assets in shell companies ([58:04] A, [60:10] B).
• Nicole’s family remains quiet—potentially due to custody or financial leverage ([58:11] B).
• O.J. responds to the civil verdict with an ice cream—and a financial shell game ([60:54] B).
• Failed attempts at reinvention: moves to Florida, reality TV, ghostwritten book If I Did It ([61:25] B–[64:59] A).
• The book, originally canceled, was eventually awarded to Ron Goldman’s family in court—cover changed to highlight “I Did It” ([72:15] B).
• Ron Goldman's sister, Kim, is spotlighted for her efforts, while Denise Brown remains highly critical ([72:16] B).

10. Final Years and Death of O.J. Simpson

• In 2007, O.J. was convicted (ironically, almost to the day of his murder acquittal) of armed robbery and kidnapping—sentenced to 33 years, served nine ([69:13] B).
• Died in April 2024, still a celebrity to some, his legacy as “the Brentwood Butcher” cemented ([70:59] B).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “O.J. Simpson done did it and now he done dead so he can't get me.” – Suruthi [03:41]
• “They thought the evidence speaks for itself. But that only works if the jury are actually listening.” – Hannah [10:32]
• Regarding Mark Fuhrman: “He’s the archetypical bullying, racist LAPD cop... Everything that is suspected of the LAPD, Mark Fuhrman does it times 100 million and he’s proud of it.” – Hannah [18:23]
• “It’s the equivalent of the blood trail, but for the f***ing defense.” – Suruthi [23:09]
• “If the glove don’t fit, you must acquit.” – Johnnie Cochran as quoted by hosts [43:34] A
• “Three hours! For reference, the average jury deliberation time is one day per week of trial.” – Hannah [47:05]
• “OJ’s own lawyer went on TV and essentially told the nation that he was guilty and he just got away with it.” – Hannah [50:06]
• “I don’t think the people that acquitted him didn’t think he did it. I think they were just like, fair’s fair. I don’t want him to go to prison. That’s what it feels like to me... faced with this level of evidence.” – Suruthi [41:39]
• “Maybe to be that good, you have to be that bad. Can you be that good at something without losing it somewhere else? I don’t know.” – Hannah [70:59]
• “I did it on purpose by O.J. Simpson. There you go, the end.” – Hannah [74:23]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:41] – Hosts officially set the tone: “O.J. done did it.”
• [05:33] – Recap of physical evidence at Bundy and Rockingham.
• [11:24] – Alan Park's testimony and O.J.'s timeline the night of murders.
• [15:13] – Discovery of the gloves and the Fuhrman debacle begins.
• [17:05] – Mark Fuhrman's racist history is exposed.
• [25:49] – Dream Team eyes acquittal, not just a hung jury, after tapes.
• [27:50] – Jury described as “already ready to kill each other” during sequestration.
• [33:09] – Mysterious removal of a key juror—possibly defense interference.
• [36:43] – “The Gloves Didn’t Fit”: disastrous live demonstration.
• [43:25] – “If the glove don’t fit, you must acquit.”
• [47:05] – Jury deliberates for only three hours.
• [49:04] – Prosecution’s defeat and O.J. walks free.
• [58:04] – Civil trial verdict; O.J. ordered to pay but evades responsibility.
• [61:25] – O.J. attempts notoriety with “If I Did It.”
• [69:13] – O.J.’s 2007 conviction: the downfall.
• [70:59] – Reflection on legacy, death in 2024.
• [72:15] – Goldman family’s control of “If I Did It” proceeds.

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Concluding Thoughts

The hosts close with relief and exhaustion at finally tackling America’s most notorious trial—a “story so unbelievable” and so thoroughly saturated with evidence, systemic failings, and cynicism that it hardly seems real. They highlight that the real victims—Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman—are lost behind the media circus, and that a monster walked free not because of America’s justice, but because he embodied everything broken within it.

“Glad it’s on record. RedHanded have done O.J. Simpson. Now, let’s never talk about O.J. Simpson again.” – Suruthi [75:16]

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For more on the case, the hosts recommend Kim Goldman's podcast, Confronting O.J. Simpson. And, true to the RedHanded style, the episode leaves listeners both horrified, entertained, and maybe just a little more skeptical about the systems meant to protect us.

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

That's why we waited.

[B]

And the last red handed of 2025.

[A]

Wowzers trousers.

[B]

Wowzers trousers indeed.

[A]

Oh my gosh. More rhymes of sombrero solitero.

[B]

Not even a word. That's the best I've got.

[A]

No problemo. Sombrero. I don't know, I forgot what we were saying. What were we talking about? Oh wowzer strousers. All right.

[B]

Well man, look.

[A]

We've given you quality content all year. That's the best fucking joke you're getting at me this. Oh man, just kidding. I'll keep trying.

[B]

I believe in you.

[A]

I'll keep trying to work sombrero in there.

[B]

Michael Bolton Potato is pretty hard to top from last week. I can't promise whether Michael Bomber Potato will be coming. Why am I giving him so much airtime? He was really horrible to me.

[A]

Fuck him. It's all right. It's not in a good light to be fair.

[B]

That's true. Last week we left off with Marcia Clark, prosecutor laying out a very straightforward case. Let us do a very quick reload so no one gets lost this week and ends up in the back of a Bronco at 25 miles an hour on the 405. No one ever wants to be on.

[A]

The 405 with a fucking slice of Domino's pizza and a glass of orange juice. Compulsory consumption for this week's episode.

[B]

Yeah, no one's doing like commemorative rallies like the Lundy 300 in LA because the traffic's so horrific.

[A]

You just.

[B]

Everyone would murder you.

[A]

Can you imagine? Can you imag. Everybody hires white Broncos, orders a Domino's and gets a fucking pint of orange juice and just goes for a very slow drive.

[B]

Yeah, the world economy crashes because no one can get to work. Anyway, as stated in last week's episode, we shall not be even entertaining a reality in which O.J. didn't do it. And now that's out of the way. Here we go again. Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman were hacked to Death by by O.J. simpson somewhere between 10 and 11pm on 13 June 1994. In the dead of night, a blood soaked dog named after a waste of space led a couple of civilians to Nicole's house. Outside the South Bundy address were two brutalised corpses, footprints, a discarded knitted hat, a left handed leather glove, and a whole lot of blood belonging to O.J. simpson. Johnnie Cochran, in his closing statements, he's like, I'm just Johnny Cochran in a hat. It's not a disguise. However, Navy Seals are trained to conceal themselves at night wearing hats exactly like that. And that will be important later on. It's his hat.

[A]

Ok, got it. I believe you like the little fake mustache. I'm not a man wearing a fake mustache. I'm just a man in a fake mustache.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not wearing it to disguise myself, I just lack facial hair.

[B]

He literally says, he was like, oh, I only had the disguise in my car because I wanted to go to a theme park with my children without being disturbed.

[A]

Oh my God, that man looks like O.J. simpson. Oh wait, but he's got a tiny.

[B]

Little mustache.

[A]

It out.

[B]

Right, Sorry. Back to Back to reload. Four LAPD detectives were dispatched to O.J. simpson's home to break the news that his ex wife was dead. One of those four, Detective Mark Fuhrman, the worst possible one of the four detectives, discovered a right handed glove covered in a mixture of Nicole Brown's blood and Ron Goldman's blood. And every step of the way, faded star O.J. simpson was given outrageously preferential treatment by the Los Angeles Police Department, which really came back to bite them in the arse when instead of handing himself in, he orchestrated the most famous but slowest car chase of all time.

[A]

There's some joke in there about Domino's 30 minutes or less.

[B]

Maybe in another life, maybe in a.

[A]

Maybe in a sunnier month. So Simpson's defence attorneys, known as the Dream Team, fronted by Johnnie Cochran and Robert Cocktails with Hitler. Shapiro knew that they couldn't beat the case on the evidence because there was so much of that evidence pointing at O.J. simpson being incredibly, absolutely 100% guilty.

[B]

What makes the Cocktails with Hitler thing so poignant is that if you can't tell by his surname, Robert Shapiro's Jewish.

[A]

I actually watched a documentary last night about Robert Shapiro.

[B]

About Robert Shapiro?

[A]

No, about Hitler on Channel 4. And I was like, I just finished doing a big old painting stint. I'd done my share, so I was like, I'm done now, so I'm going to lay down on the sofa that was covered in plastic sheeting. It felt very Dexter, but I was like, I can't move. So I was laying there, I was like, just going to put the TV on. And along came a documentary about Hitler. It was quite interesting. It's not over yet because it's one of those weird ones. I've split it up and they're going to release it episode by episode, like every week. I was like, what?

[B]

Like, we don't know about Hitler.

[A]

Yeah. I was like, just release it all now while I'm in the mood to watch this, right? And it was basically about this guy who had been in the American army and he was like one of the first people that had gone into Hitler's bunker after he had shot himself, or did he go on and he cut a bit of the sofa that was covered in blood and took it away as a little memento to be like, hitler is dead. And I have the proof because here's a little swatch of quite a nice sofa with some blood on it. And he had kept it and his grandson now had it, and it was like in this museum, blah, blah, blah. And so they basically cut a bit off to test if it was Hitler's DNA. And then they were like, basically trying to decode Hitler's ancestry and any, like, neurological, psychological things that they can evaluate from it. And one of the ongoing myths around Hitler was that he knew that he was secretly of Jewish ancestry and he was very ashamed of that and that's why he had his body burned before the Allied Forces could get their hands on it, blah, blah, blah, so that they could never discover the truth. And I'm only one episode in, and they were like, no, no Jewish ancestry. So there you go.

[B]

One bulldo.

[A]

One bulldo. Apparently apparently they do talk about that in episode two. There you go. I might as well have got something out of that episode.

[B]

I watched.

[A]

Totally derailed myself. Where are we? So, yes, Robert, Cocktails with Hitler, Shapiro. They know they can't beat the case and so they play dirty. And they were very, very good at it. Now, on the other side, team Prosecution, you've got idealistic Marcia Clarke and her co prosecutor Christopher Darden, who were very, very full of hope because they thought the evidence speaks for itself. But that only works if the jury are actually listening. The People vs OJ Simpson dragged on for longer than anyone thought was possible. Hearings were delayed again and again, often for things that just weren't that important. By the time anything actually important was said, the jury just didn't care anymore. That's how you kill it as well. You bore the jury to tears.

[B]

Let's get going. This week with some more witnesses. I do understand why Marsha Clark and Christopher Darden, who's. He's not that experienced like Marcia's the pro. I understand why they think they've got it. I understand why they take the risks they take. I understand why they do what they do because it's so obvious. But again, like I said last week, it just highlights how the whole system can be turned on its head if your lawyer is good enough and enough of a piece of shit. Let's kick off with Alan park, who is the driver who took OJ to the airport the night of the murders and he made his 11:45 flight to Chicago. Alan park told the story of that night in the stand. It was his first job for a properly famous person, so his recollections were clear. Alan park told the court that when he first arrived at Rockingham, no one answered the door, so he waited outside. He called his boss and he called his mum. He could see from the street that there was a light on in the house. At 10.52pm, Alan Park's boss rang him back. And that is when Allen park saw a man who looked a lot like O.J. simpson walk into the house. So he rang the bell again and would you know it this time? O.J. simpson answered. He said he'd overslept and that he would be right out at 10:52pm and.

[A]

Did he say, oh, you might have seen my twin brother. He's got a tiny little moustache. It was just him coming in.

[B]

He woke me up and he was like, no. But I did see Michael Bolton on a potato.

[A]

Him too.

[B]

Simpson came out of his house with a black duffel bag and just after 11, him and Alan park headed to LAX. According to the prosecution, that bag contained the clothes that OJ Was wearing as he committed the murders, except the hat and gloves that he lost along his way.

[A]

Like a fucking stupid child. Uh huh, who's just committed a double homicide. Where are your gloves? We're gonna have to start sewing them into your coat, you stupid little murderer.

[B]

O.J. simpson with Mittens on a string is an image that I will keep for the rest of my life. Wouldn't have lost him, wouldn't have gone.

[A]

To prison for murder, but he spoiled us.

[B]

Anyway. The equivalent of TSA agent. I say that because I'm not sure TSA existed back in the 90s, but whatever. An airport worker also testified that they saw O.J. simpson standing very near to a bin in the terminal. And I would bet Mabel's life that bin is exactly where that black duffel bag ended up because nobody ever saw it again. Want to give your loved ones the presents that they'll really treasure this festive season? You should check out Quince. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, Quince offers timeless, beautifully crafted pieces that will last them for years to come. Because quality never goes out of style. And the best bit? Each piece is made with premium materials from ethical, trusted factories and still priced far below what other luxury brands would charge. When I shop with Quince, I know I'm investing in quality pieces instead of wasting my money on big brand names that are all style over substance. And I might even keep a few cheeky bits for myself. After all, it is Christmas. Find gifts so good that you'll want to keep them with quince. Go to quince.comredhanded for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com redhanded to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com redhanded this.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah, the LAPD record of this is kind of why Marcia doesn't understand how serious it is. So Mark Fuhrman was part of a pension fraud scheme in which he was trying to extort money out of the LAPD by saying he had been psychologically damaged by the work he had been forced to do. He doesn't get away with it. But because he's submitting these psychiatric reports to try and get pension money, it's all on paper, all of these like, saying that having to deal with really difficult people at gangs, blah, blah, blah. And he just says these like, wild things, which he obviously says, well, I only said them because I was trying to get.

[A]

I was just trying to do a little fraud.

[B]

Exactly. And that doesn't make me an unreliable witness in a murder case. And Mark Fuhrman, he actually appears in the ESPN documentary and a couple of other ones, I think, but that's his major one. He really thought, I mean, he's an astonishingly arrogant man anyway, he thought because he was the one that found the glove, the LAPD would protect him to the ends of the earth. And he wasn't actually that wrong. But he's like, I'm pivotable. They need me. So I'm not going to get fucked over by the prosecution. They need me.

[A]

Yeah, I just googled a picture of him. The first one that comes up is him With a little smirk. Smirk on his face. Which tells you everything you need to know.

[B]

Yep, exactly.

[A]

So, yeah, Fuhrman is the archetypical bullying, racist LAPD cop.

[B]

Everything that is suspected of the LAPD mock. Fuhrman does it times 100 million and he's proud of it.

[A]

He claimed to pull over black men just for the sake of it, especially if they had a white woman with them. He drew swastikas on his colleagues lockers and he used slurs any chance he got. Marcia Clark was made aware of these reports, but called them bullshit being brought out by the defense.

[B]

They were doing a lot of that, except these ones, unfortunately were very true.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And so she stuck with Mark Furman. She really didn't have to include him as a witness, but she did.

[B]

Yeah. There's so many things, especially this week, we'll come across like these really near misses that come out of the DA offices. There was no reason to get Mark Fuhrman on the stand. She made a bad call.

[A]

She did. I wonder though, and this is just me asking this question, I wonder though, if she hadn't, would the defense have brought Mark Fman as a witness anyway?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

To point out how racist he was. So I think she's going into this very naively, not thinking about Mark Fuhrman.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But I think ultimately he would have been brought forward and this would have come out anyway because the defense would have done it.

[B]

Yes, you're. You're right, because the defense don't actually have to prove anything. All they have to do is rock.

[A]

The boat just enough and he would have been the biggest fucking iceberg they needed.

[B]

They don't need to rock it at all. Here's what the defence say that Mark Fuhrman did. This is what they're arguing in the courtroom. He picked up the glove from the crime scene and then he wiped blood from that glove all over the Bronco and then he pretends to find it behind the bungalow. Forget all of the other evidence who bang in the middle of the AIDS crisis is slopping blood around. It's certainly not Mark Fuhrman anyway.

[A]

They might as well have said that he killed Nicole Brown himself to make it look like OJ Simpson had done it.

[B]

Yes. And this is the final nail. Not even the final. It's the biggest nail in the prosecution's coffin. F. Lee Bailey was obviously allowed to have a crack at Mark Fuhrman during cross examination, and he asked him if he had ever said the N word. And Mark Fuhrman says no. And he's like, are you sure you've never used that word in the last 10 years? And he says, no, I haven't. But he doesn't say N word. He says what it actually is. And F. Lee Bailey had used that exact tactic before. He knew the effect that that word would have on the majority black jewellery in a racially divided Los Angeles. A very angry, angry Los Angeles fresh.

[A]

Off the back of the Rodney King riots.

[B]

And F. Lee Bailey knew damn well that Detective Mark Fuhrman did use the N word. He had it on T. A woman called Laura McKinney had got in touch with the Dream Team after seeing Detective Fuhrman on the news. She had met him about 10 years before and had used him as a source for a police drama pilot that she was writing at the time. Laura conducted 12 interviews with Mark Fuhrman describing his years on the force. Not only were their N words littered throughout these recordings, but Thurman also claimed that he was a member of a society within the LAPD called Men Against Women or More Maw. And that is what McKinney ended up calling her screenplay. No one bought it. She just went to go and teach screenwriting. Anyway, there's about 12 hours where Mark Fuhrman is saying that he's tortured gang members. He'd covered up murders, planted evidence to get black men in trouble, especially if they're going out with white women. He doesn't like that. Going out of his way to ensure that black suspects were convicted. He even declined to give certain details if the statute of limitations wasn't up on that particular crime that he was describing. So some people say he was jazzing it up to make it sound sensational, because he wants to impress this woman who's writing a screenplay. He wants to seem dangerous. Maybe F. Lee Bailey doesn't give a shit about that. Doesn't matter. The jury don't give a shit about that. Like it's on tape.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's literally. Yeah. When you say it's the biggest snail. Yeah, of course it is. It's the equivalent of the blood trail. But for the fucking defense.

[B]

And because Marcia, in her run up, has said that he's a good man and a solid witness and she's aligned herself unknowingly. She doesn't know this is gonna happen, obviously, but she's fucked as soon as this happens. So it's all over.

[A]

And the disgraced detective super slagged off a female officer that he had also served under. And guess who that female officer was? It Was of course, Captain Margaret York. If that name sounds familiar, it's because Captain Margaret York is of course Judge Ito's wife. And he is on tape telling Laura McKinney that York sucked and fucked her way to the top.

[B]

It's the judge's wife. It could not be any worse. It quite literally could not be worse.

[A]

Which is why obviously the defense, when they saw Judg Ito, they were like, yummy.

[B]

I don't think they knew this. The tapes get sent to the mid trial. The judge has already been selected.

[A]

Can you imagine? Yeah.

[B]

The joy if it had happened not mid trial, Marcia would have known about it.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. Discovery this hardly ingratiated the prosecution, but that was just a minor problem, really. The very big problem was that during pre trial statements, Captain Margaret York said that she didn't have any particular memory of Detective Mark Furman, which seems unlikely as he felt so strongly about her. So if Captain Margaret Yorke lied about her relationship to Mark Fuhrman during pre trial, that meant a mistrial for O.J. simpson. It didn't come to that, but it easily could have. In the end, only a few clips from the tapes were allowed to be played for the jury, but that was honestly all it took. The prosecution had aligned themselves with the worst possible witness. So now not only is the prosecution looked upon poorly by the majority black jury, because Marcia Clark is there saying that Mark Fuhrman is a good man and he's on tape saying all sorts of n words, but also the judge is like, you called this man a good man who's on tape slagging my wife off. It's just so bad all round. This is just diabolical.

[B]

Unless you're Johnny Cochran, unless you're Johnny.

[A]

Cochrane, in which case you're like, fucking hell, maybe he didn't do it.

[B]

When the Men Against Women tape showed up, Johnnie Cochran realised this wasn't just hung juryville anymore. The dream team could roll right through to acquittal town.

[A]

And that's the hilarious thing, is that Johnny Cochran like doesn't go into this, it seems, believing that that's the outcome that he could get. No, it's like he's shooting for a mistrial. Right?

[B]

He's shooting for a hung jury.

[A]

Yeah, sorry, yes, a hung jury.

[B]

Until those tapes come in. And then he's like, thank you, Jesus, maybe I am doing the right thing and maybe I'm not a horrible person. After Mark Fuhrman was revealed to be exactly what everyone believed the LAPD to be, Johnny Cochran asked the majority black, are you with the man or are you with the brothers? The Dream Team even wore African pattern ties to trial, a move that Judge Ito could have forbidden. He's well within his rights to do that. No one was allowed to wear the equivalent of a Blue Lives Matter pin, for example, but he didn't. He was just like, nice tie. The world outside, naturally, was clamoring for the Furman tapes to be released to the press in. In full. I don't believe they ever were. There's snippets out there for sure, but the whole 12 hours, I don't believe were ever. And the stuff he's saying is, like, rounding up all black people and burning them like, it's. It's like genocide stuff. Anyway, quite understandably, tensions were higher than ever, and Johnny Cochrane did all he could to fuel the fire. The city was clamoring for the LAPD to pay for their sins. It looked like the days of the LAPD oppressing black citizens and acting with impunity were over. And O.J. simpson became a symbol of that struggle. Double murderer. It's perverse, truly.

[A]

That's the only word. A microcosm of this battle played out amongst the jury. By the time the African ties were cracked out, the jury were already ready to kill each other. For the entire trial. The 12 jurors and 12 alternates were totally sequestered. They were not allowed TV or newspapers or to have the keys to their own room at night. They were overseen by sheriffs, and many complained that the white jurors received preferential treatment.

[B]

Again, the drama, the People vs. O.J. simpson does this very well, where, like, anyone is going to be fucking irritated. They have to have conjugal visits with their partners. They have to watch TV altogether in the same room. It's literally like being in prison. They are all at their wit's end.

[A]

It's such a bad idea. It's such a bad idea to sequester a jury because, yeah, you just get tensions high and people making decisions based on wanting to get the fuck out of that situation as quickly as possible.

[B]

And this is what I was. We were talking about this the other day. I can't remember what episode, but why. I think this has made me lose any shred of faith I had in the jury system. Because now, even if you were to sequester a jury, which isn't a good idea anyway, there's too much information. You cannot have a. You cannot have a uninformed jury. Like, you cannot guarantee a fair trial.

[A]

And then on top of that, Chuck in You know, devious experts that can be paid off to do whatever. It's a very, very poor system. And some people may say, well, you know, it's the best system we have. I don't know, I don't know.

[B]

Norway have what are called lay judges. A friend of mine is one. And that is, you know, possibly an. I need to read more about it. But like, so it is normal people, but they have training.

[A]

Yeah, it's tricky, isn't it? Because it's like, obviously in this country not to totally derail this conversation. In this country right now, there's a big conversation about, like, the prosecution's decisions about which cases to take forward, the police's appetite to investigate certain cases, depending on who the victim is, who the perpetrator is, et cetera, et cetera. And then if you add on top of that a feeling of, oh, well, now the public aren't even involved in the jury and it's done by people within that. And England and Wales system is very different to the American system where we already have such a, like, lack of transparency over anything that's going on. I think here it would be tricky. Although I don't think the jury system is clearly working as intended, that if you add that extra layer of like, oh no, we will also choose who decides. I don't know if you'll just lose even more trust in the system. It's not easy. It's not easy. But anyway, people are getting pissed, they're getting cabin fever while they're all fucking hunkered down and sequestered with each other. And a fun quirk of the LA Sheriff's Department is that all sheriffs have to start their careers with two years of working in the county jail, which, not unsurprisingly propagated a feeling that every deputy treated the public like inmates until they retired.

[B]

Yeah, I get it, yeah.

[A]

Even after the painstaking selection process, a lot of the jurors had to be dismissed during the trial, which obviously just.

[B]

Delays things even more.

[A]

One worked for Hertz and had met O.J. another had been convicted of kidnapping his girlfriend. And one woman had been raped twice by her husband and had a restraining order out against him. But on the selection questionnaire, she had claimed to have no connection to domestic violence.

[B]

And then there was Florio Bunton, a middle aged white woman who the Dream team were most worried about voting to convict. But then one day, magically, an anonymous letter came in that knocked her off the jury. This letter came from someone claiming to work at a publisher's who knew that Florio had agreed to a book deal to write some sort of inside jurorscoop on the trial. Florio and her lawyer, whose name is Rex T. Reeves.

[A]

Stop it.

[B]

Come on. Rex T. Reeves. That's the only reason I included it. Chomp, chomp, chomp. I'm a T. Rex lawyer. Look at my little T. Rex hands. I've got a tie, like. Anyway, Florio and her lawyer, who may or may not be a dinosaur, have always insisted that there was never a book deal. The letter was totally fraudulent, and she never wrote a book. She was still dismissed. The letter doesn't name her. It just says yo. Female, 40s, her husband has pneumonia. Yeah, it was very obvious.

[A]

Also, they are allowed to do that in the U.S. aren't they?

[B]

Not while they're sitting, sure. Not before a verdict, I don't think.

[A]

Yeah. They're insinuating that she's already sharing that.

[B]

Information and also communicating with the outside world. Okay, sure, sure, sure.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. And there was something to do with like passing a note between her and another juror, possibly an alternate, but that didn't really mean that they're allowed to do.

[A]

It's just interesting that the one woman that the defense is most worried about.

[B]

Gets knocked out this way, isn't it? Just the famously clean handed fair play defense team cocktails with Hitler. Shapiro wouldn't have thought of this one.

[A]

He just takes the sombrero off for a second.

[B]

Most people are in agreement that this letter came from some exterior Simpsons supporter. I think it was Shapiro.

[A]

It did. No matter how fucking obsessed you were with OJ Simpson, you are not going to be looking at the jury and have an understanding enough of like, oh, that's the woman I need to get rid of. Let me write a secret letter about her. Of course it was fucking Johnny Cochrane. Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah. And it. I mean, it worked.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So Florio Bunton was replaced with an alternate and the show went on.

[A]

To. When the LA county coroner took the stand at trial, he confirmed that although the autopsies were carried out very poorly, he was of the opinion both Ron and Nicole had been killed by the same singular killer. Whoever had incapacitated Nicole with a blow to the back of her head and then leaned over her, pulled her head up and slit her throat, which is how Navy Seals, by the way, are trained to kill. Had also killed Ron Goldman. And coming back to the Navy SEAL thing, because as Hannah mentioned last week, this is very important because who had just filmed a pilot for which he was trained in Combat by real life Navy seals. Well, it's not me, it's OJ fucking Simpson.

[B]

It was called the Frogman and it's about Navy seals and he was training for weeks. So that particular method of killing is, is how they're taught to do it. And also they are taught to disguise themselves at night by wearing black knitted hats. Bit of a coink, a dink, isn't it?

[A]

So many. So with all of this, the DA's office were clawing back some serious ground. And it started to look up even more when they found a sales receipt for those gloves.

[B]

It's so close, they so nearly do it.

[A]

The gloves discovered at both Rockingham and South Bundy were brown leather Ares Lights in XL product code 70263. And although they were made by the largest glove manufacturer on the planet, this particular model were very rare. Only 200 of them had ever been sold, and you could only buy them at Bloomingdale's. Nicole Brown had purchased two such pairs on 18 December 1990 in the flagship store in New York City. And the prosecution had the sales receipt. This was devastating for Team Simpson, or at least it should have been. It's literally the opposite of what you should do if you're going to do a murder. Not where incredibly rare, only 200 pairs exist. Can't buy on the Internet. Can only buy in a very specific store. Gloves, and then leave one of them behind and then leave the other one in your own fucking garden covered in blood. The blood of the victims. My God, you couldn't make it up. You would sound like you'd been hit in the head if you made this up as a plotline.

[B]

I feel like I've been hit in the head.

[A]

Happy Christmas.

[B]

And then to really bring it home, and against Marcia Clark's will, I would add. Christopher Darden, co prosecutor, decided the best way to seal the deal to prove to the jury that Those gloves are OJ Simpson's gloves was to Cinderella OJ's massive hands into those little gloves. It could not have gone worse. Replica gloves had been disallowed. Fair enough. They're leather that, like changes. That meant that because O.J. is having to try on the actual gloves and the actual gloves are evidence, he has to wear latex gloves in order to handle them. So that's already a difference. And OJ almost certainly stopped taking his arthritis medication to make his hands swell up. His, like, ex sports manager claims that it was his idea, but again, I think it's this other, like, everyone is just trying to get in on it. I don't know or care whose idea it was. And it's also not even the most brazen thing about it. It's the thing that people talk about the most. But if you actually watch him, he like sticks his thumbs out at like odd accents. It's, there's no one, no one is getting gloves on like that. It's impossible. Christopher Darden even asked Judge Ito to insist that O.J. simpson put the gloves on like a normal person. But he didn't. And damage done. OJ just turns to Johnny Cochrane and goes too tight. And just like Marcia Clark didn't need to get Mark Fuhrman on the stand, Christopher Tartan really did not need to get OJ to try on those gloves. The receipt would have been enough. I think he is so overwhelmed by the showmanship of what the Dream Team are doing. He's trying to beat them at their own game. I think he's like, oh, I'm taking a risk, I'm going out there. And he just fails.

[A]

Yeah, no, you're right, that does make sense. It's like a powerful vision, powerful image. If you've got OJ standing there with the blood soaked glove on his hand. Yes, but in reality, yes. A receipt for an extra large pair of gloves, one of which was found at each of the fucking properties, would have been enough. Oh my God. The prosecution brought more forensic discoveries too. An expert confirmed that the shoe prints at the South Bundy house were made by size 12 Bruno Magli shoes worn by an individual over 6 foot. There was also a footprint inside Simpson's Wonka Le Park Bronco that was made by, guess what? The same shoe worn by the same size person. The knitted hat found at Ron Goldman's feet was covered in hairs confirmed to be OJ's. Ron Goleman's shirt was the same story. The right glove recovered at Rockingham had Nicole's hair on it and, and fibers from Ron Goldman's shirt. The prosecution's case lasted 92 days, included 58 witnesses and 488 exhibits. They didn't even include the Bronco chase in their argument, thinking that it wouldn't have made a difference. And they were right because none of it was enough. The gloves didn't fit, so who gives a fucking shit?

[B]

Which is what I would said in my, my closing statement if I were Johnny Cochran. After the prosecution rested, the Dream Team spent their time painting O.J. simpson as a loving father, son, and a black man who against the odds, made it in a White World and was paying the price for it. They attempted to poke holes in Marcia's timeline, but they couldn't really. There's a lot of chat about whether the dog actually barked at 10:15, but I haven't included it because it's fucking irrelevant. Doesn't matter. Cochrane also tried to argue that O.J. simpson was not physically fit enough to have carried out an attack, which was disproven by a 70 minute unreleased exercise video that OJ had recently filmed called Minimum Maintenance for Men, in which he is quite clearly literally fighting fit. And in this video, whilst OJ's shadowboxing, he says to camera, get your space in. If you're working out with your wife, you know what I mean? You can always blame it on working out. And what that is. Children. Is a convicted wife beater joking about beating his wife at a murder trial and it still made no difference.

[A]

No, I don't think that the people that acquitted him didn't think he did him. I think they were just like, fair's fair. I don't want him to go to prison. That's what it feels like to me. How can you be faced with this level of evidence and be like, yes, the prosecution fuck up. The defense is doing a very good job.

[B]

Just come on.

[A]

Come the fuck on. No way. No, I think they would. Like, like you said, O.J. simpson became a symbol of, like, we are no longer going to be oppressed by the LAPD and by the justice system and all of that, and he is not going to go to prison for this. And that's what it feels like in all honesty. Now, in a very smart move, OJ Simpson never took the stand himself. During the trial, he was allowed to give a closing monologue. There was such a stroll down fucking narcissism lane that Judge Ito himself actually cut OJ off mid sentence.

[B]

Okay, all right.

[A]

In her closing statement, Marcia did all she could to claw back the jury, arguing that Mark Fuhrman was the very worst the LAPD had to offer. But that didn't change the fact that all of the actual evidence led straight to one person. Not a single juror wrote down a word she said. When it was his turn, Johnnie Cochrane came to court accompanied by his Fruit of Islam security detail. In his statement, he compared Mark Fuhrman to Hitler and told the jury that they had a societal responsibility to stop him. Bingo. Because we all know what happened the last time a man like him was not stopped, meaning the Third Reich, presumably World War II.

[B]

He's like, if you let Detective Mark Fuhrman get away with this, World War 3 will be your fault.

[A]

It's a very, very obvious manipulation of the jury. And when it came to the gloves, well, Johnny Cochrane, as I'm sure you've all heard, he put it simply, if the glove don't fit, you must acquit. A defence later employed by Sasquatch in South Park.

[B]

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[A]

I don't know how they even got through the paperwork they have to do in three hours.

[B]

The jury spent their 266th night in their hotel. And the hotel very nicely threw them a champagne reception and they went back down to the courthouse the next day to deliver their verdict. By the end, after all of the fuckery and the dismissals and the lying.

[A]

May, if I'd have been had to have been sequestered in a Hotel for 266 days, my sombrero would be on fire. Justice. Fuck justice. I wanted to go home. What does everybody want me to say? And like, I know I'm being facetious, but like that, of course that played a role. Of course that played a role. No one's going to be one angry man standing out being like, no, this isn't right, O.J. simpson. You just be like, whatever, whatever, let's go home to our fucking families and our jobs and our lives.

[B]

There were nine black jurors, two white jurors, one Hispanic juror. Ron Goldman's sister Kim howled as the not guilty verdicts were spoken and it was all over. The last juror to leave the courtroom raised his fist in a black power symbol before he left. And another said, we've got to protect our own. You're right. They all just wanted to get the fuck out of there. And she's interesting, the one who said, you know, we've got to protect our own. They interview her years later, and she has now changed her mind. But she was like, I know that at the time I thought I was doing the right thing. She says something like, well, back then we all had to look out for each other. Wild Marcia Clark told Kim Goldman, I'm so sorry, kiddo. I did everything I could. And I think she did.

[A]

O.J. simpson, the double murderer, walked out of that courtroom a free man and went straight back to Rockingham with Robert Kardashian, where they threw a party. The garage had been converted into a dark room while the jury deliberated, so the pictures from the Freedom Bash could be sold to the press as fast as humanly possible. This is how sure his defence were that O.J. simpson would get away with it. Robert Shapiro didn't go to the Freedom Party. He went to give an interview to Barbara Walters instead. He was so bitter that Johnnie Cochran had stolen his spotlight, he undermined the whole defence, saying, we played the race card and we played it from the bottom of the deck, adding that he would never work with Bailey or Cochrane again, even though the whole race card defence had been his idea to begin with.

[B]

He is such a petulant child. He's so angry that Johnny Cochrane became the star of the show. He just can't. He can't have it, of course.

[A]

So, yeah, he couldn't make it up. Basically, what you have here is O.J. simpson's own lawyer going on TV and essentially telling the nation that he was guilty and he just got away with it.

[B]

I just thought of a possible, another level to what Shapiro's doing here. I do think he's just fucked off, but I also think he knows that the backlash is coming and he wants to save himself. So he was just like, oh, well, you know what? It was disgusting, but it was completely out of my hands. Dial 0800 COCKTAILS with Hitler for my legal advice. I'm a really good person in.

[A]

And that's the thing, isn't it? Because you can say, like we talked about in last week's episode, that of course, racism was a massive problem at that time in the us. The way the LAPD would have handled black people who had been accused of something like this, like, there's no way I'm going to sit here and pretend that back then that was in any way equitable. Of course not. But the manipulation that Johnny Cochran and the defense team that absolutely. Shapiro started the thinking of, used to manipulate that jury into freeing O.J. simpson did nothing to serve them because they may have, quote, unquote, felt like they protected their own, but actually all it would have done is provide this huge backlash where then they're the ones that are going to face. It's not just O.J. simpson that faces the outcome of that backlash and the pendulum swinging the other way. They're going to feel it far more. If anything, you're gonna have a bunch of people in the LAPD who feel like, fuck, that guy got away with it. We better double down on the way we police within black communities. Because, look, he got away with it after he murdered a white woman. So they absolutely just serve as like completely manipulated victims in this situation just to get fucking O.J. simpson off.

[B]

And it's not even just the sort of policing clampdown idea, which you're absolutely right. It was just like civilians as well. I think in the Vanity Fair article they give a few examples of cultural impact. And there's this one guy who's like, I was walking and my friend gave some money to a beggar. And the beggar looked up at him and the beggar's black. And he goes, you are the first white person to give me money since the verdict.

[A]

Yeah, this is what I mean. The more you stoke racial tensions, the more you are going to have a backlash. Pendulum swinging. And you might think you're doing the right thing in the moment, you might feel righteous, but it's gonna bite you in the fucking ass. So, yeah, scary times, but not for OJ because he went right back to living at Rockingham and for a few years while his children lived with Nicole's parents and he saw them every two weeks. Eventually he got sole custody of them both.

[B]

As I said last week, I reserve judgment on Nicole's family. But imagine having to drop your grandchildren off with the man who murdered your daughter every few weeks.

[A]

No, I can't. And look, I'm not saying that there's like a better way he could have murdered her, but the violence. He nearly decapitated her with a knife. That's not easy to do.

[B]

And left her there for them to find her.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

[B]

I am happy to say that the initial celebration was quite short lived. And I think that's what Robert Shapiro saw coming, which is why he doesn't go to the party where he knows those photographs are going to be, because he orchestrated the building of the darkroom. Most people distance themselves from OJ Simpson pretty quickly once they realized how clearly he definitely did it. Any initial deals that he was offered collapsed and signs went up all over his neighborhood with slogans like, welcome to Brentwood, home of the Brentwood Butcher, Murderer loose in Brentwood, etc. Things like that. Being OJ was never going to be the same again. And although the O.J. simpson trial was framed by Johnny Cochran as payback for Rodney King, Julia Love, Emmett Toll, etc, every black injustice in America. After the verdict, the district attorney told TV cameras that the case was closed and there would be no push to find the real killers, the cultural impact of the O.J. simpson verdict is immeasurable. And here are a collection of quotes that just capture it better than I can. So these are Just people who are around in and around the O.J. simpson Ksan trial at the time. He has no life other than an afterlife. It's a tougher sentence than if he'd gone to prison. Ron Goldman and Nicole are the payment of the racial debt. Any girl he hits now can make herself famous when she sells her story. O.J. simpson had no idea how to move through a world that didn't love him. And even Robert Kardashian eventually gave an interview saying that he had doubts about O.J. s innocence. And this was confirmed by none other than Caitlyn Jenner, who told Grazia that before he died. Robert Kardashian said, I would have been okay if they got him at the first trial. I do think Robert Kardashian has a real crisis of conscience, and I think he got himself in too deep and didn't know how to backtrack.

[A]

I mean, I don't know as much about him because I didn't do the research on this case. So I'll take your verdict on him. But to me, looking at his progeny, it's hard for me to not feel like it's a fave game, but I may well be wrong. So the Dream Team, after everything, didn't stick around really very long. Apart from the odd comment in interviews saying how unfair it was that an acquitted man was being treated as a pariah, Johnnie Cochran went as far as to say it was un American. This is a country that traditionally takes people back who have fallen from grace. Richard Nixon left office in disgrace and was later welcomed at the White House. Spiro Agnew's bust was put in the Capitol this year. There are a lot of other examples, including Michael Milken. I don't look for sinister motives, but what is the difference between OJ and the others? That's what he said.

[B]

Yes, please. What are the differences between Richard Nixon and O.J. simpson?

[A]

Fucking loads. That's the difference. Johnny Cochran. All alone. OJ And a small gaggle of hangers on made a new plan. Simpson wasn't going to be the embodiment of the black American dream ever again. So he decided that if the country thought he was a murderer, well then who cared what else they thought of him? He moved to Florida, hung out with some questionable characters, womanized and partied hard, and of course hosted the short lived prank show juiced, in which O.J. simpson would work at fast food, drive ins, or dress up as a homeless man, employing the catchphrase, you've been juiced. And this was broadcast on pay per view and ended up on dvd and you can actually still find remnants of it on YouTube today. The flavor Flav style music video intro is particularly tragic.

[B]

And also just like the concept of like, I'm in a disguise, a surprise, it's me. Unconvicted murderer maybe.

[A]

It's very meta about how well O.J. simpson can be disguised.

[B]

Oh my God, Wait till we get to if I did it.

[A]

Oh no.

[B]

If you want to talk about meta.

[A]

Oh no, I don't think I can.

[B]

But we must, we must, we can, we will, we must. A rewatch cheer. In 1997, O.J. simpson was found legally liable for the deaths of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman at a civil trial brought against him by Ron Goldman's family.

[A]

Interesting. Why are Nicole's family so quote, I.

[B]

Think he pays them off. I think they rely on him financially.

[A]

I can imagine there's financial motives. And I'm sure he has sole custody of the kids. I'm sure he's also like, you fuck with me, you will never ever see your daughter's children again.

[B]

I think it plays a big part in why they stay so quiet and.

[A]

It'S easy to judge them for that, but I think when kids are involved, that's hard.

[B]

Yeah. According to Marcia Clark, the case presented at civil trial was exactly the same one that she had laid out, but they had O.J. on the stand. I love you, Marcia, but there's a bit more to it than that, isn't there? But Simpson did not help himself. He just outright lies at every turn. The best one was when he claimed that he never owned the ugly ass shoes that made the prints at the crime scene and then being smacked with a photo of him wearing them.

[A]

I mean, he is a narcissist. O.J. simpson, narcissist. I don't think that's a particularly controversial thing to say. He's got away with it his entire life. He's always been able to lie, like from when he's a kid, like the principal's office thing you were telling us about last week. Then he gets away with a double homicide.

[B]

He's exceptional.

[A]

Of course he's standing in a fucking civil trial being like, I don't fucking own those ugly ass shoes. Of course he lies about everything because he thinks he can get away with it, because up until then he has.

[B]

And also for those interested, for those who practice, there is footage of O.J. simpson wearing the murder gloves whilst commentating on NBC in 1990.

[A]

You mean the one of only 200 that exists?

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

Sick.

[B]

There were other major differences that led to this trial going the opposite way, of course. For a start, it was conducted in Santa Monica, which has a decidedly different jury pool than downtown la. And also, the stakes are just a lot lower at civil trial. This time, the jury didn't need to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. They just needed to conclude that the defendant's guilt was more probable than not.

[A]

And I'm guessing they weren't sequestered at a civil trial.

[B]

51% is all you need.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so a smiling, flippant Simpson was court ordered to pay the Goldman family $33 million in damages, which sounds like a win, but in reality, it's just a piece of paper. O.J. simpson didn't have $33 million in 1997, and he spent the rest of his life making sure that he Never officially got $33 million so that he would never have to pay the Goldman family a penny.

[A]

And just to really highlight how unconcerned O.J. simpson was with this civil ruling, he went and got himself an ice cream after the trial concluded. They'll treat. They'll pick me up.

[B]

Good job. Well done, you.

[A]

OJ Then hired an estate manager to hide every asset he could. By 1997, Simpson was being paid $100,000 per public appearance. But he somehow managed to conceal it all through a series of shell companies, most of which were in his children's names. But that is a tough dance to keep up forever. And eventually, O.J. simpson lost Rockingham to the taxman. He moved to Florida and got a girlfriend who looked exactly like Nicole.

[B]

That's not something I would say if it weren't true, because I think it's disrespectful to Nicole, but she really does.

[A]

I believe it all out of ideas. In 2006, Simpson wrote a book, and he was paid $700,000 for the manuscript in advance. And we all know, you guys know the book was called if I Did It. OJ Needed the money and also to stop feeling like her husband. And HarperCollins knew that nothing would fly off the shelves faster than a confession from none other than the Butcher of Brentwood himself. So a deal was struck, although Simpson refused to actually confess, as that would, you know, require him to have a conscience.

[B]

I have read it, so you don't have to.

[A]

Oh, my God. How the fuck?

[B]

Real struggle session.

[A]

Did he actually write it? Do we know?

[B]

Kind of. Okay, there are ghostwriters. What is so bizarre about it is that all they can manage to get him to do the deal. Is signed on the basis that it will be a confession. And because of double jeopardy, they can't get him for it, but he refuses. And he's like, no, no, no. I thought this was a novel. And they're like, no, juice. We. Come on, we gave you $700,000. And he was like, okay, the best I can do is what I would have done if I did it. So this book. Book, the only good thing about it is that it's quite short. All he does right is hit on the major beats of the prosecution story and either say they're lying or that actually it was all Nicole's fault for making him love her too much. That's what he says to Nicole's mother at her funeral. I loved her. I loved her too much. Or sometimes he would say that she'd actually decided that she wanted him back and he was done with her, so she was angry with him. So she was sleeping around. When discussing the 1989 New Year's incident, the one he literally can't deny happened because he was arrested and convicted for it, he claimed that all he did was push Nicole out of their bedroom because they both had too much to drink and they both lost their tempers. The pushing onto the landing is what had caused the bruising on her arms. However, the rest of her injuries were down to police lying to make it seem like it was all worse than it was and. Or because Nicole was hungover, had been crying and would stood under fluorescent lighting. So of course she looked terrible. And the book is full of that kind of like, insidious, confident, crushing negging that we have all seen ruin friends. Just this one. This one. I had to stop listening to the audiobook. This really took me very close to the edge. He's talking about how Nicole's struggling to, like, shift some baby weight after she has her his children. And she would cry when she looked in the mirror, he says. And his response was, so don't look in the mirror then. And then, obviously, when she is very upset, that's her fault. He just said, don't look. What's the problem with that? It's like, oh, I know that when I see it. He also added that Nicole's mum had warned OJ at the very beginning of his relationship that he should never let Nicole gain weight because she was a miserable nightmare when she did.

[A]

So. When it comes to the night in question, here is what OJ Claimed happened in his book.

[B]

If I did see, this is why it's so difficult. It's not even what he says he was doing the night it happened. It's what he would have done if he did it, which he didn't.

[A]

He's claiming it's like an O.J.

[B]

Simpson fan fiction written by O.J. simpson.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

About the run of his life.

[A]

A self penned fan fiction.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

But he says things like to the ghostwriters when they're talking about which route he takes your imaginary OJ takes. And he's like, no, why would I have gone that way? I went that way. Yeah, obviously. Who would turn, right? No, I didn't go that way. And so he just like says stuff like that where you're just like, I could totally imagine.

[A]

That's not what happened in the story time. Constructive.

[B]

That's exactly what it is.

[A]

So, right, let's listen to this. Right, he says that his friend Charlie came over and told him that Nicole had shagged a load of his mates. Furious, OJ Simpson decided to go over to Nicole's house to read her the riot act and took Charlie with him, telling him, I'm tired of being the understanding ex husband. Ex being the key word there. So what the fuck do you care who she's shagging?

[B]

But it's really hard on him.

[A]

Sure. And really hard on his children presumably, who you know, it wouldn't be hard on them at all to find their nearly decapitated mothers body.

[B]

So when pretend OJ and made up Charlie make it to Nicole's house in this story, pretend OJ puts on his gloves and he takes out the knife that he kept under the front seat of his car and Charlie tries to stop him, but Nicole flew at OJ and then she just fell to the floor. And then Roland Goldman, who knew karate, he might actually have done karate, but like it's a big part of OJ's like telling of the story. Ron Goldman starts to circle Simpson and that is all pretend. OJ remembers the next thing he knew, both Ron and Nicole were lying in pools of blood. And then he noticed the knife in his hand and decided it was just a bad dream. He had dreams about murdering Nicole before. This one wasn't that different. And that's when the dog started barking and OJ went back to Rockingham. Later on, OJ Simpson would say that Charlie was just invented by the ghostwriters. It was. He'd never said it and actually I didn't know this. Apparently it's not uncommon for particularly high profile famous killers to have like an imaginary friend in their retelling of the story. I think there's quite a couple of famous assassins who have a similar thing where they're just is this other person with them at all times who's just. Anyway, just for the fuck of it, here's what I think happened. There will be no surprises. O.J. simpson got himself wound up about something. He went over to Nicole's house to check if she had a man up there. He'd done that before and he red misted and he killed Nicole and Ron Goldman. And then he went back to Rockingham and tried to cover it all up, losing his hat and his gloves along the way. The end. It is that simple.

[A]

And then he lucked out with the most ridiculous series of events that happened afterwards that enabled him to get away with it.

[B]

O.J.

[A]

Found himself in court again. 13 years to the day he was acquitted of that particular crime. He had held two memorabilia dealers up at gunpoint in Las Vegas. On 13 September 2007, Simpson claimed that the men had stolen some of his belongings and he wanted them back, presumably so he could hide them from the Goleman family. Simpson forced his way into the two men's hotel room with five armed men with him. All bar one. Took plea deals and testified against O.J. simpson. And O.J. tried all of his old tricks to try and get out of this one too. But the Dream Team weren't there to save him. So the best he could manage was being stupid and being frustrated is not being a criminal.

[B]

He makes the same argument that he makes like decades before. Well, it's my car, I can smash it. He's like, they're my things, I'm not stealing them. A yes you are, because they were seized because you owe the Goldman so much money. And that doesn't mean you can kidnap people and hold them hostage just because it's your Heisman, No.

[A]

In the end, O.J. simpson and his singular co defendant were both found guilty of first degree kidnapping, armed robbery, assault with a deadly weapon, coercion with a deadly weapon, burglary while in possession of a deadly weapon, and conspiracy to commit a crime, kidnapping and robbery.

[B]

It was unlucky 13s all round for OJ Simpson. Johnny Cochran's office gave a statement claiming that it was a preposterous verdict and just a punishment for the acquittal 13 years before even Johnny Cochran can come up with anything better than that. O.J. simpson was sentenced to 33 years. He did just nine and was released in 2017 when he made another feeble attempt to reinvent himself on the outside. His first ever tweet was that he had a little getting even to do. Stop. But he didn't, and his run was almost over. OJ Simpson died of prostate cancer on 19 April, 2024, at the big old age of 76, surrounded by his children and his grandchildren. And until the day he died, he had vans. Even people who knew he did it would still queue up to shake his hand and pay $150 for his autograph. Maybe to be that good, you have to be that bad. Can you be that good at something without losing it somewhere else? I don't know.

[A]

I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

I have got some good news, Biz. The book if I Did it was never released by OJ in its first form. HarperCollins pulled it, which means even Rupert Murdoch could see how utterly morally bankrupt this whole thing was. It caused outrage. They pull it. And then because the Goldman family have this ruling of $33 million, maybe even a little bit more, what they essentially had Kim Goldman describes. It's like we had a credit card with $33 million on it to get the rights to that book. And that's what they did because it's owed to them by O.J. simpson. And now they have something that they can swap for it. And that's exactly what they did. And it was made even easier when two judges ruled that the company structure that OJ had set up was fraudulent and it was just funneling it all back to him, just making it look like it wasn't. And that is why, if you Google if I did it, O.J. simpson, that is why on the COVID the if is so small, because the Goldman family changed the title from if I Did it to if is Basically Invisible Colon, Confessions of a Killer.

[A]

I see.

[B]

Yes. But they weren't given a particularly easy time for making that decision. Denise Brown, Nicole's sister, comes after them like a fucking steam train. And I don't really understand why. She's like, just profiteers, like, money grubbing's disgusting, blah, blah, blah. Like, what else can they do?

[A]

What have your family done? Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't want to come down hard on the. On the Browns, but I'm like, why is she coming after the Goldmans?

[B]

Like, I really don't know. And actually, the book begins with a series of people like Ron's dad, his sister, all defending why the book exists and why they have chosen to do what they've done with it. Yeah, yeah, they were given a really fucking hard time. Another foreword comes from the Ghostwriter Pablo F. Fenves. Pablo spends most of his prologue defending himself and insisting that everything he put in the book was said by OJ and not, as OJ later claimed, made up, which he only did after Murdoch pulled the book, by the way. Kim and her family have since set up the Ron Goldman foundation for justice, which grants funds to organisations and programs that provide resources to victims and survivors of violent crimes. I have tried really hard to see what kind of work they are doing. I can't find it, but that doesn't mean that's not happening. And the copyright of their website says 2025 on it. So I. I believe that they are using that money in positive ways. So if you want to read if I Did it, you don't have to feel bad about where that money is going. Kim Goldman also has a podcast. It's the Confronting O.J. simpson podcast. It's hosted by Kim Goldman. So if you need any more, which I can't imagine wanting to hear any more about information anyway, you can go and listen to Kim's podcast and let's complete our circle.

[A]

Yes, please.

[B]

Pablo, the ghost writer of if I Did it, was the man who first heard Cato, the aikido, plaintively wail into the night. That's what I thought when Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman were hacked to death by O.J. simpson.

[A]

And I was like, am I imagining this?

[B]

No, I did it on purpose.

[A]

Fuck.

[B]

You know, that's what his book should have been called. I Did it on Purpose by O.J. simpson. There you go, the end.

[A]

Oh, my God, what a touchdown fucking story.

[B]

NFL words.

[A]

Well done. Thank you. Sports, sports, every sports. Yeah, it's one of those stories that, honestly, you guys like, covering the more obvious bait stories is so much harder than like just looking at random, obscure cases that we cover all year because there's just so much information and this one is one that just feels so unbelievable. But I am glad now it is on record. Red handed have done O.J. simpson. Tis done. Tis there tis the season and I'm very grateful that we have done that now and you guys have heard our thoughts on it. And let's never talk about O.J. simpson. Yeah.

[B]

Merry Christmas.

[A]

Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas and a happy new Year. And yeah, this is the last episode of red handed 2025. So just to say thank you very much, guys, for another fabulous year here at Red Handed for, you know, doing all the things you've done, voting for us in the Signal Awards, supporting us in all the episodes we've put out, and next year is going to be even more exciting because it's our 10 year anniversary next year.

[B]

No, it isn't.

[A]

Is it not?

[B]

It's our nine year anniversary.

[A]

It's our nine year anniversary next year. So stay tuned for that 2027. But more excitingly than whatever the fuck anniversary it is is the fact that we will hopefully, fingers crossed, be bringing you guys even more extra content next year because we. Are we doing a little restructuring.

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

We're not making. I was like, we're not making more content. There's content that currently exists in places maybe that you can't hear it. There may be. Yes. That maybe will be coming out, sneaking out from behind that sneaky paywall. So stay tuned for all that. We're very excited and have a lovely holiday and we will see you all back here in January.

[B]

Ninth is my favorite number.

[A]

Anyway, it's a much nicer number than 10. I agree. 10 sounds so bait. Yeah, let's normalize celebrating the ninth anniversary of things. What's a ninth wedding anniversary? Like what material is it? Nine?

[B]

Oh, it's gonna be something rubbish like a thimble.

[A]

A thimble?

[B]

Oh, An Orange. An O.J. simpson. A Justice Sombre.

[A]

Something made out of orange pillow.

[B]

Michael Bolton, Not a potato.

[A]

The ninth wedding anniversary is associated with traditional themes of willow and pottery and a modern theme of leather. Okay, I've never seen it where there's like multiple things.

[B]

No, me either.

[A]

It's willow, pottery and leather.

[B]

I'd rather have Malcolm on a potato.

[A]

Let's say that's that.

[B]

Okay, great.

[A]

Okay, guys, that's it. Goodbye.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Hello, I'm Alice Levine.

[B]

And I'm Matt Ford and we're the hosts of British Scandal.

[A]

Our latest series has a very loose, festive theme.

[B]

It's about the other virgin's baby. But we're not talking cosy stable in Bethlehem him. We're talking roaring 1920s London where Christabel Russell is living her best life.

[A]

She's married into an aristocratic family who want one thing, an heir.

[B]

And the tricky bit is the Russell marriage is a no sex deal.

[A]

So when Christabel becomes pregnant, is it a miracle?

[B]

Cue a national scandal and sensational trial. Follow British Scandal wherever you get your podcasts or listen early and ad free on Wondery. Plus. You know those creepy stories that give you goosebumps? The ones that make you really question what's real? Well, what if I told you that some of the strangest, darkest and most mysterious stories are not found in haunted houses or abandoned forests, but instead in.

[A]

Hospital rooms and doctor's offices. Hi, I'm Mr. Ballin, the host of.

[B]

Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries, and each week.

[A]

On my podcast you can expect to.

[B]

Hear stories about bizarre illnesses known as no one can explain, miraculous recoveries that shouldn't have happened, and cases so baffling they stumped even the best doctors. So if you crave totally true and thoroughly twisted horror stories and mysteries, Mr. Ballin's medical mysteries should be your new go to weekly show. Listen to Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.