Robert Wone - The Dead of Night: Part One | #424

Summary

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RedHanded #424: Robert Wone – The Dead of Night, Part One

Date: November 6, 2025
Hosts: Alina Urquhart & Ash Kelly
Podcast: RedHanded (Wondery)

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Overview

In this episode of RedHanded, Alina and Ash take on the baffling and unsolved murder of Robert Wone, a case infamous for its locked-room setting, perplexing forensic details, and the bizarre, contradictory narratives of those present in the house that night. The episode focuses on the events leading up to, during, and after Robert's death on August 2, 2006, primarily covering the 911 call, initial police interviews, the dynamic between the residents, and the logistical mysteries of the crime scene. This is the first of a two-part deep dive, with this installment setting up the scene, the cast, and the enormous list of unanswered questions.

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Episode Structure

• Introduction: What Draws the Hosts to the Case? [03:09]
• Who Was Robert Wone? [05:35–09:01]
• The Timeline of August 2, 2006 [09:01–11:52]
• The Locked Room & House Layout [10:13]
• The Hosts' Dissection of the 911 Call [15:35–30:34]
• First Responders Arrive – Their Observations [37:14–45:02]
• Initial Police Interviews & The Men’s Behavior [46:00–61:48]
• Household Dynamics: More Than Just Roommates [58:44–63:39]
• Police Challenge the Intruder Theory [64:01–76:34]
• Timeline Problems – Neighbor Testimony [99:56–103:21]
• Polygraph Results & The Cliffhanger [103:21–end]

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Hosts' Fascination and Expectations [03:27 / 27:00]

• Alina explains her love for “closed door mysteries.”

  “This case... It’s very like [the] Ellen Greenberg situation but more bonkers. Way more bonkers.” – Alina [03:27]

• Both hosts frame the episode as a set-up for much deeper exploration in Part Two, where they’ll share their own theories.

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2. Robert Wone’s Background and the Stakes [05:35–09:01]

• Robert: A high-achieving, universally liked 32-year-old Chinese American lawyer, married, recently changed from big law to a public service role (Radio Free Asia), known for his kindness and philanthropy.
• His longstanding friendship with Joe Price (resident of the murder house and central to the events).
• Establishing that Robert was the last person anyone would have expected to be at the center of such a violent event.

“He just seems like the nicest person.” – Alina [06:15]

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3. The Timeline and Setup for the Night of the Murder [09:01–11:52, 10:13]

• Robert finishes work at 9:15pm, calls his wife at 9:30, then Joe at 10, arrives at the house at 10:30. Housemates settle in for bed shortly thereafter.
• The house:
  • 3 floors, 4 bedrooms, Dupont Circle (D.C.)
  • Robert in guest room (2nd floor, front)
  • Dylan’s room on same floor (back), Joe & Victor upstairs
• Key detail: Last unsent emails from Robert’s laptop at 11:05 (to wife) and 11:07 (to work); 911 call made at 11:49. Implies a potential gap of up to 40 minutes between last known Robert activity and discovery.

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4. The Contradictory “Intruder” Narrative [12:51–16:47, 21:05–21:43, 24:24–31:46]

• Victor and Joe claim they heard the chime from the back door alarm and a scream or grunting noise, then found Robert stabbed; claim intruder escaped with one of their knives.
• The 911 call (analyzed in detail) is laden with inconsistencies, depersonalizations, and distancing language (“someone,” “we,” avoidance of names, vague details).
• Neither asks for police initially, only an ambulance.
• Timing of what was heard—door chimes, scream, who discovered what, and when—changes in the retellings.
• The hosts note multiple times that split-second reactions and lack of concern for each other’s safety ("splitting up" when an alleged intruder may still be present) make the “intruder theory” implausible.

“I just think, again, one point at a time. I get it. It's weird.” – Alina [39:32]

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5. Paramedic and Police Observations – The Scene Was 'Wrong’ [37:14–45:02]

• First responder Jeff Baker found:
  • Victor outside, “hysterical,” in a white bathrobe, not making eye contact.
  • Dylan wordless, goes into his room, closes door (odd).
  • Joe in boxers, sitting with his back to the door (not applying pressure, contrary to 911 call instructions).
  • Minimal visible blood for three stab wounds; blood seems “wiped,” suggesting a clean-up.
  • All three men had the appearance (wet hair, clean) of having just showered.
  • Robert’s possessions neatly stacked; the knife left at the scene.

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6. Challenging the Residents’ Stories—Host & Detective Skepticism [46:00–62:28]

• Detectives pick apart the men's stories, focusing on:
  • Lack of footsteps (not plausible in such a creaky house)
  • No apparent panic about an intruder
  • Contradictions in who heard what and when
  • Overly detailed or odd alibis (Joe’s story about seeing a spider in the garden to explain leaving the back door unlocked)
• Both hosts and detectives note how Joe and Victor go out of their way to vouch for Dylan, even though, by their own testimony, they can’t possibly know what he did during the key window.

“He says in that clip that we just heard, I know them both better than I know my own mother. What a fucking weird thing to say.” – Alina [57:23]

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7. Household Dynamics: Dysfunction at the Center [58:44–63:39]

• Not a true throuple, but two overlapping “two-way” relationships:
  • Joe & Victor (long-term couple, family focus)
  • Joe & Dylan (sexually “BDSM-centric” relationship)
• Dylan as “houseboy”/submissive to Joe’s dominant persona.
• Tensions clear from post-murder interviews; overt hints that Victor is unhappy and felt out of the loop.

“If you can make that kind of thing work, then go for it. But I do not believe for a second that there was not huge amounts of tension in that house.” – Alina [63:34]

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8. Implausibility of the Intruder Theory – Logistics and Physical Evidence [64:01–76:39]

• No forced entry, neighbors out but saw nothing, no one heard/observed a fleeing person, mid-terrace layout makes escape nearly impossible.
• Seven-foot fences behind the house, with undisturbed cobwebs and pollen.
• Residents’ stories on the unlocked door change, with mundane justifications.

“How is somebody getting in and out with none of the neighbors seeing anything? ... Very unusual.” – Alina [74:22]

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9. Timeline Problems and the Scream [99:56–103:21]

• Neighbors heard a scream between 11 and 11:30 (while watching a local news program).
• If Robert last wrote an email at 11:07 and 911 was called at 11:49, there may be up to a 40-minute gap between his last activity/the scream and the emergency call.
• Raises substantial doubt about the men's narrative of “immediate” discovery and 911 dialing.

“At most ... a 40 minute window between the scream and the 911 call. Or ... at the very least ... a 20 minute window between the scream and the 911 call, which just doesn’t make sense.” – Alina [101:04]

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10. Polygraph Results & The Stage for Part Two [103:21–104:21]

• Dylan fails FBI polygraph when asked if he killed Robert or knew who did, though, as the hosts emphasize, polygraphs are not reliable or admissible in US courts.
• All three men are treated (subtly) as suspects, not witnesses, yet police lack the evidence to charge—case remains unresolved.
• Cliffhanger: Next week’s episode will explore the forensic and autopsy evidence, including unexpected and shocking results regarding DNA.

“The semen that they found inside Robert Wan’s body and who it belonged to is genuinely one of the most shocking and confusing twists I have seen in a case...” – Alina [104:21]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

Dissection of the 911 Call

• On Victor’s 911 call:

  “He very rarely says I, he always says we. ... It feels a bit like the retelling of a pre-agreed story between two people.” – Alina [21:05]

• On the scene upon EMS arrival:

  “He’s not applying pressure to his wounds. He’s just sat there.” – Alina [26:00]

• Hosts’ skepticism about the panic level:

  “You don’t even know that this person isn’t still in your house. ... It’s not Scooby-Doo, where you’re like, 'let’s split up.'” – Alina [32:30]

On the Investigative Breakdown

• Detective to Joe:

  “So the scenario you’re telling is a burglar comes in the house for the sole purpose of coming upstairs and stabbing a person who spent ... half an hour in your house?” [64:01]

• Alina on the web of contradictions:

  “He says repeatedly in the interviews, like, 'Oh, nothing bad’s ever happened to me. ... You never—but you’ve got a little unit that chimes in your bedroom when the back door opens, but you don’t care at all about safety.'” [72:07]

On House Dynamics

• Ash on the relationships:

  “Dylan and Jo’s relationship was one that ... appeared to have centered on BDSM. Jo was the submissive and Dylan the dominant.” [61:48]

• Alina on their polycule:

  “I do not believe for a second that there was not huge amounts of tension in that house.” [63:34]

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Important Timestamps

• 03:27 – “You love [closed-door mysteries], can't get enough.”
• 09:01–11:52 – Timeline of Robert’s arrival & the house setup
• 15:35–16:47 – Start of 911 call analysis
• 21:05–21:43 – Detailed breakdown of Victor's distancing language
• 37:14–45:02 – Paramedic’s arrival and the odd scene
• 46:00–55:25 – First police interviews (Joe’s story discrepancies begin)
• 57:23 – “I know [Victor and Dylan] better than I know my mother.”
• 63:34 – “I do not believe for a second that there was not huge amounts of tension in that house.”
• 74:22 – Physical implausibility of the intruder escape
• 99:56–103:21 – Neighbor’s timeline shatters the men’s account
• 104:21 – "The semen that they found inside Robert Wone's body..."

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Final Thoughts & Coming Next

• The episode leaves the mystery’s main suspects in a tangle of contradictions and the audience with more questions than answers.
• Forensics, unexplained physical evidence, and the housemates’ bizarrely synchronized yet inconsistent stories set the stage for Part Two.
• Next week: Autopsy results, DNA revelations, theories, and the enduring enigma of Robert Wone’s murder.

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Conclusion:
RedHanded delivers a layered, skeptical, and deeply researched breakdown of the Robert Wone case, bringing the “locked-door mystery” to life with sharp commentary and a clear sense of the absurdity in the suspects’ stories. Listeners are left eagerly awaiting Part Two’s deeper forensic dive.

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Transcript

[Alina Urquhart]

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[Ash Kelly]

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[Alina Urquhart]

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[Ash Kelly]

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[Alina Urquhart]

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[Ash Kelly]

Foreign.

[Alina Urquhart]

I'm Surruti.

[Ash Kelly]

I'm Hannah.

[Alina Urquhart]

And welcome to Red Handed. Okay. This case. Anytime anyone just like interrupts a conversation that I might be having with some other people in the last like month, you can guarantee this is the case I was talking about.

[Ash Kelly]

I've realized that like my specific vibe of case is historical. Hopefully something to do with World War II. World War I if I have to.

[Alina Urquhart]

Yeah.

[Ash Kelly]

Yours is closed door mystery.

[Alina Urquhart]

Yes.

[Ash Kelly]

That's your fucking shit man. Like that is you love them. Can't get enough.

[Alina Urquhart]

You couldn't have put it better, Mike. I couldn't have put it better myself. You couldn't have put it better myself. This case, it's very like Ellen Greenberg situation but more bonkers. Way more bonkers.

[Ash Kelly]

It is way more bonkers.

[Alina Urquhart]

Right, so let's get into it. At 10:30pm on 2 August 2006, Robert Wan, a 32 year old lawyer, arrived at the D.C. home of his friend Joe Price. Robert had worked late that evening and so he was crashing in the guest room of his old college pal. It was a Wednesday and everyone had to be up early the next morning. Sir Robert, Joe, Joe's partner Victor Zaborski and their lodger Dylan Ward all turned in soon after. But nobody would be getting a peaceful night's sleep because just 79 minutes after Robert arrived at 1509 Swan Street a 911 call was made from the house.

[911 Operator]

Help us reinforce staff.

[Joe Price]

They're on our second floor.

[Alina Urquhart]

Robert One had been murdered. The investigation that followed is one that baffled the police and the public alike. The scene, Robert's injuries, the surviving men's stories, nothing added up. And to this day, 20 years later, the truth of who killed Robert 1 is still a mystery. And this is honestly one of the most bizarre stories I've ever come across. And it has jumped to the top of my if I could know what really happened that night cases. Oh okay, this would be it. I've got a strong theory that we're going to talk about next week because yes, this is going to have to be a two parter. But yeah, I've spent the last few Weeks, Just like I've got a bald patch from scratching. It's so bizarre. But let's get into it before we.

[Ash Kelly]

Get into everything that happened on that strange evening. And then in the days, weeks, months and years that followed Robert Wan's death. We're going to start with Robert himself. He was by all accounts an incredibly kind, lovely and intelligent guy. Just two weeks before his murder, he'd been the best man at his friend Jason Tuchinski's wedding. In the Peacock documentary on this case, who killed Robert 1, which is actually for Peacock, rather good. You can see right from the gate how loved Robert was by everyone. Even in the footage of him at somebody else's wedding. He just genuinely seems like a really nice person, truly.

[Alina Urquhart]

I know everyone always says that about people who were murdered, but like, sometimes that's not true. But with Robert, it really is. And like, even when I was writing this, like talking about Robert's personal life, talking about some of the things that happened to him, it's just writing it down just made me feel so, like, uncomfortable because he just seems like the nicest person.

[Ash Kelly]

Robert, who was Chinese American, grew up in Brooklyn and had always excelled academically. He went to the very highly regarded William and Mary College, the second oldest university in the US after Harvard. That's a good fact. A school that holds the rare status of public ivy for its top quality academic programs. And it was here that Robert became good friends with Joe Price.

[Alina Urquhart]

Whilst at college, Robert was also a member of the thirteen Club, a secret society that at first I thought was just some sort of like wanky uni drinking club or something, but it was actually a club that carried out anonymous acts of kindness and philanthropy and tried to dispel superstitions around the number 13.

[Ash Kelly]

Which is adorable, I have to admit. When this first comes up in the documentary, I'm like, that's coming back later.

[Alina Urquhart]

Yeah, no, nope, never comes back up. And after graduating in 1996, Robert went to the University of Pennsylvania Law School where he consistently ranked top of his class.

[Ash Kelly]

So it was no surprise to anyone when Robert landed a fiercely competitive position as a law clerk to a judge. I know Americans say clerk, but you're wrong. Then in 2000, Robert accepted a job at the illustrious law firm Covington and Burlington. During this time, Robert also met and married the woman he described as the love of his life, who's called Kathy. And after six years of the corporate grind, Robert quit his job and in June 2006 moved to radio Free Asia, a not for profit that provides accurate and timely news to Asian countries whose governments prohibit access to free press. Radio Free Asia has also played a major role in exposing what's actually going on in secretive Asian nations to us here in the West. For example, the Xinjiang internment camps. Robert was passionate about his work, saying that he wanted to make more of a difference in the world. So all in all, in August 2006, when Robert was killed, he did kind of have it all. He had a very happy marriage, according to everyone who knew him and Kathy, and a job that gave him a real sense of purpose. And on top of that, a solid group of friends who loved him.

[Alina Urquhart]

So now let's get back to the night in question. Robert finished work at 9:15pm At 9:30, he called his wife Kathy to say goodnight. Then he called Joe at 10 to let him know that he was heading over. At 10:30, Robert arrived at 1509 Swan Street. According to Joe, Victor and Dylan, Robert came in, he had a glass of water by the sink in the kitchen. They all stood around making small talk for a while. Then Joe and Dylan showed Robert where he'd be sleeping. And by 10:45, they were all in their rooms. And this property, 1509 Swan street is a very nice house in a very fashionable part of dc, Dupont Circle. I don't know it, but that's what I've heard, that's what I've been told. So if I'm wrong, sorry. And basically this house, what you want to imagine, it's a mid terrace townhouse that's got three floors and four bedrooms. Now we're going to be talking about the floors of this particular townhouse quite a lot in these two episodes. So to keep it simple, we're actually going to go with the American way of doing this because I do think it makes more sense.

[Ash Kelly]

It is one of the only ones I will concede. You do do floors better than us.

[Alina Urquhart]

Yes. In the uk, we're like ground floor, first floor, second floor is better. No, no, no, no, no, no. So for the purposes of this episode and this episode alone and next episode, we're gonna do first floor, second floor, third floor. Everyone with me. Great. So Joe and Victor's room was on the third floor of the house, while Dylan's room was at the back of the house on the second floor. So the room that's away from the street and the guest room that Robert stayed in was at the front of the house, also on the second floor. So basically you've got Dylan's room, a hallway and Robert's room. Robert's room is facing out into the front of the house onto the street. And it seems from the evidence that Robert, after he went to his room, had a shower, got into a fresh T shirt and boxers, and wrote a couple of emails. These emails were never sent because they were found in his drafts later. Now, one of these emails was to his wife Kathy at 11:05, and one was to work, which was saved to his drafts at 11:07. Now, the 911 call was placed at 11:49. So whatever happened to Robert, I think we can safely say happened within those 40 minutes if we believe that he is the one writing that email. Which I think, you know, there's enough, like, holes in this that we don't need to dig further into that I think we can. Let's assume Robert did indeed write that email at 1107. The call is placed at 1149. Gives us a solid 40 minute window to work with.

[Ash Kelly]

But after all of the men went to their respective rooms, the plot does start to get a bit hazy. And we'll get there when we get to the police interview section. But for now, we're going to stick to the bare bones of what those men would later claim. Victor and Joe said that they were in bed watching Project Catwalk and they fell asleep at around 11pm this is in 2006, right? So we're talking OG yeah. Wouldn't it have been Project Runway?

[Alina Urquhart]

Maybe that would be my mistake.

[Ash Kelly]

I'm almost certain.

[Alina Urquhart]

If that's the only thing I get called out for in this episode, I'll be happy.

[Ash Kelly]

Project Catwalk's armored. Oh, it's significantly worse than Project Runway.

[Alina Urquhart]

My apologies.

[Ash Kelly]

Project Runway has recently been revived. I haven't watched it yet, but I hear good things.

[Alina Urquhart]

Okay, I never watched it.

[Ash Kelly]

Oh, it's fun.

[Alina Urquhart]

It's just more fun than America's Next Top Model. Nothing is more fun than America's Next Top Model.

[Ash Kelly]

It's less problematic than America's Next Top Model. But yeah, they, you know, they still are angry. They still shout each other, still cry over like a safety pin. Great, it's Tim Gunn. Who doesn't love Tim Gunn?

[Alina Urquhart]

They're not shaving people's heads and making, making men wear those weird like pubey. Do you remember the puby weird like Lace Witt and Tyra Banks just yelling at girls with eating disorders. Good times.

[Ash Kelly]

Fun. So fun. Anyway, Dylan says that he was in his room down the hall from Robert, but that he'd taken a couple of sleeping pills and was knocked out. So he didn't hear a thing. Victor and Jo would go on to say that at some point that night, they heard the chime of their back door open. They had an alarm they never set, but there was an electronic chime in place that pings whenever the door is opened. Who would have that in their home?

[Alina Urquhart]

And they also had, like. Because some people were like, how could you hear it if it's down on the first floor? But Jo explains this in the police interview. They have, like, another transmitter in their room. So when the back door opens, it chimes downstairs, but it also chimes in their room. Hideous.

[Ash Kelly]

I am considering, though, getting a, like, flashy light doorbell that deaf people have. Okay, so Mabel doesn't bark. Yeah, I think it's becoming a bit.

[Alina Urquhart]

Of a problem, truly.

[Ash Kelly]

They might just get one of those in my bedroom.

[Alina Urquhart]

Honestly, it was so good because Little Blue just never barked at anything. He never barked. He was a mute. And now he's been hanging out with Big Blue, who barks at everything. Oh, my God. Now he started barking and we're like, you don't bring this. Don't bring this.

[Ash Kelly]

Couldn't.

[Alina Urquhart]

He can. He's found his voice. It's a problem every time he barks. He also looks like he might die.

[911 Operator]

Oh, yeah.

[Alina Urquhart]

So it's not just annoying, it's also scary.

[911 Operator]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ash Kelly]

Good times, Big Blue man. Fucking hell.

[Alina Urquhart]

I know.

[Ash Kelly]

Anyway, so that chime doorbell on both floors is what woke Jo up, apparently. And then they heard a grunting, screaming sound coming from below them. And then the chime of the back door went again. So they went down there to investigate and they found Robert in his room. He'd been stabbed. Joe told Victor to go and call 911 from their room upstairs. And we're going to listen to it now. We are going to break it up because it's seven minutes long. So we can reflect on what's being said in more manageable chunks because there is quite a lot going on. And just to clarify, the operator keeps calling Victor, ma', am, for some reason, and he never really corrects her, so it is a bit confusing. But it is definitely Victor that is on the phone.

[911 Operator]

D.C. emergency, 911 Operator 6752. Do you need police, fire or ambulance? What's wrong, ma'? Am? We had someone name us in our house, evidently, and they stabbed somebody. Okay, Somebody's inside the house now. I don't know. We heard. Are they bleeding? You see someone bleeding? Someone is bleeding in our house. Okay. Where are they bleeding from? I think he's I think in the stomach. The stomach? Be cautious. Calm down for me. I'm gonna send some help, okay? Female or male? It's a male. He's a friend of ours. You're spending the night with us, okay? And who was the person that stabbed him? Do you know? Is he. Is he conscious? We need an ambulance, ma'. Am.

[Joe Price]

He's not conscious.

[911 Operator]

He's not conscious at all? No. When you feel him right now, is he breathing? Listen to me. Calm down. I'm going to help you, okay? Is he breathing? I'm upstairs and he's downstairs. I don't know. Okay, who's downstairs with him? My partner is downstairs with Honey right now. Told me to go up to you. Paul speaks immediately.

[Alina Urquhart]

There's a lot already in the first minute of this call. The first thing Victor says when he's asked what emergency service he needs, he says, we need an ambulance. Which, okay. But he thinks that someone has been in his house and stabbed his friend. But there's no request for the police. And look, I get it. It's just one part of this call. And I'm not just gonna be like, got ya. But I don't think it's unimportant because he even says we had someone in our house, evidently, but no police. It immediately makes me feel like his priority isn't figuring out who did this. Maybe because he already knows who did this and he's protecting them. I just think it's weird that he doesn't also say they need the police because he sounds scared in the call. And if that had happened to me, I'd be like, we need an ambulance. We need the police. We need the police here. All that fucking ambulance gonna do stop a person who maybe is still in your house, who just stabbed somebody? I think it's weird.

[Ash Kelly]

I don't know. I think like on its own, if I had someone who had been stabbed, my only concern would be keeping them alive.

[Alina Urquhart]

Okay?

[Ash Kelly]

So I would only be bothered about an ambulance. I would think about the police later, I think, okay.

[Alina Urquhart]

I think it's the fear that is registering on him. But again, like I said, fine. It's one point. Let's continue.

[Ash Kelly]

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[Alina Urquhart]

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[Ash Kelly]

He also talks about the intruder in the past tense, which does seem a bit strange because how do you absolutely know that he isn't still there hiding in your house? And then they stabbed somebody. Someone is bleeding in this house. It's a quite distant way of speaking. Robert and Victor are friends. They've known each other for years. This isn't just a random person that you found stabbed on the street, so reducing Robert to someone does seem odd. And like Victor is trying to create distance from Robert and maybe depersonalize him in this situation.

[Alina Urquhart]

I don't know. Again, it's just one other point, but I'm always suspicious when somebody starts saying someone about somebody that they know. And the usage of we, we, we, you're going to see this throughout the call. He very rarely says I, he always says we. And look, maybe again, I'm reading too much into this, but it feels a bit like the retelling of a pre agreed story between two people. If you're like, we think this, that means you've talked about it. How are you saying we think this if you don't know what the other person thinks?

[Ash Kelly]

Yeah.

[Alina Urquhart]

Now, again, each of these points taken in isolation proves nothing. And I certainly don't think we should just be, you know, pulling up 911 calls and being like, go arrest that person. But the totality of the weirdness of this call to me points to deception on Victor's part. But let's listen to a bit more the person.

[911 Operator]

Okay, I'm sending paramedics and the police. Okay? Who's the person that stabbed them? I don't know. We think it's somebody who's an intruder in the house. We heard a chime, ma'. Am. Calm down. 1509 Swan Street Northwest. Am I correct? Yes. The person that said something, she's still in the house. I don't know. We got helping roll. Okay, we have help in row.

[Alina Urquhart]

Thank you.

[911 Operator]

They are being wrong to you now. I'm saying the police and the paramedics. Okay? So it's this. Okay? What I need you to do is go downstairs, okay? The place, wherever he was stabbed at, I need you to get a dry cloth, okay? And just apply pressure to that area. If he was. Wherever he was stabbed at on his body. I need you to take a towel downstairs while you're waiting for the paramedics to arrive and just apply pressure. Even if the rag or towel is saturated with blood, just get another towel and put it on top. But never lift the first towel off the area. Hold it on. Once it gets filled up with blood, just put another towel on top of that and just apply pressure until the paramedics are running, okay? Is he breathing? We have helping right now, okay? You don't know who it was? Okay? Is he breathing? Breathing. But help now. Okay? We have helping, Ro ma'.

[Alina Urquhart]

Am.

[911 Operator]

Okay? We do have helping, Rob. Okay? Just go down there and try to tell your husband or your other other half to just try to keep him calm and talk to him, okay? Keep them calm and talk to him until someone gets there. And at the same time, get a dry cloth and just hold it right there in the area. My pregnant holding thing. Okay. Holding it on there. Okay. And once it gets saturated with blood, you don't get another one. Go get another towel so you can apply it on top of that one. Once it gets filled up with blood, we need you to apply pressure on that area. Okay? Just hold it there until the paramedics get there. They should be pulling up any moment. If they're already in ro your location, you don't know who did this? We have no idea who did this. Is the door open so they can get in? We don't know how we got in. Okay, well, I'm asking you now if the door open so the paramedics can get in once they get here. Sorry, what were you saying? If the door open so they can get in. If the door open so the. So the paramedicine get in the home. A private home or apartment. It's a home. It's a home. At 1509 Squad Street Northwest. The person had one of our knives. The person that stabbed him ran out the door with a knife. I. I think. Okay. Anybody get any type description of the person that came in on. No idea. We have no description.

[Ash Kelly]

So, yeah, lot of Weeze. We think it's an intruder, somebody in the house. We heard a chime at the door. And then there's the towel. The operator is giving Victor a lot of detailed information about applying pressure to Robert's body with a towel and then replacing it as it gets saturated with blood. But at no point on the call, which is long, do we hear Victor passing on this information to Joe. We never hear him relay these things to Joe at all. He just says that Joe is doing them, even though Victor is supposedly on the third floor while Joe and Robert are down on the second. So how can he see that Joe is applying pressure to Robert's wounds with a towel? Also, if we jump ahead for a second when the police arrive, the towel they found in the room barely has any blood on it at all.

[Alina Urquhart]

And when the paramedics arrive and they find Joe in that room with Robert's body, he's not applying pressure to his wounds. He's just sat there.

[Ash Kelly]

And then there's the moment of distraction, too, where Victor asks the operator, sorry, what were you saying? Which again, if he's upstairs alone, what's he distracted by? Feels like someone might be there talking to him or signalling to him. And that's why Victor wasn't listening to the operator.

[Alina Urquhart]

It's like a really clear moment in that section of the call where he is, like, not listening. And you can tell he isn't listening because the operator is saying things to him. And like is like, are you there? Are you listening? And he's like, sorry, what were you saying? And look, you could say it's a stressful situation. Victor loses focus for a second. What's the big deal? Sure. But then it's what comes immediately after he snaps out of that moment of distraction. They are talking about how the paramedics are going to get into the house, but the minute he comes out of that moment of distraction, he suddenly offers up the statement, the intruder has one of our knives. So they're talking about how the paramedics are getting into the house. She's like, is it a flat? Is it a house? Blah, blah, blah. Are you there? He's like, sorry, what were you saying? The intruder has one of our knives. Again, I may be reading too much into this, but this very sudden shift of topic to talking about the knife after the moment of distraction kind of feels to me. And again, obviously, we are going to do this as humans. We're going to, like, put a story in place based on what we're hearing. And obviously we don't have all the information, but it really feels like someone was there prompting Victor to say something about the knife, to get it on record that the intruder has one of their knives. It just feels like such a random, inconsequential thing to say in that moment. Because I don't know why it would be important to bring up at this point. Because the account that all three men later give is that Victor totally lost it when he saw Robert's body. And that's why Joe sends him upstairs to call 911, right? Because there's actually a phone in the room that Robert has been killed in, right? And there's mobiles. They have mobiles. It's 2006. But he doesn't do that. He sends him upstairs to their bedroom to call 911. And he says, the reason I did that is because Victor was so hysterical, right? The minute he saw Robert's body, he's hysterical. So how did Victor know that it was one of their knives by the time he was on the call to the operator? Because the story is they go downstairs, they see Robert's body, Victor freaks out. Joe's like, go upstairs and call 911. How has he gathered that much information that A, Robert's been stabbed and B, it's one of their knives? This is going to become a really important point. In this story moving forward. So please remember this, because even if they had found their knife in that spare room with Robert, and also, let's say he's telling this bit about the knife because they think the intruder's still in the house and he's still got the knife. And they're like, he's got a knife. He's got one of our knives. Well, if they found their knife in Robert's room, which is the only way Victor would know that it was their knife, then surely the intruder doesn't have the knife anymore, so why mention it at all, let alone as being one of your knives? I don't know. Again, it's a plot point. It's one, like, bit of information that fits into the larger themes of this story. So it's important to remember, even if right now it just feels like I'm nitpicking, but I agree with you there.

[Ash Kelly]

Like, if it was just one. If it was just one of the many, then, you know.

[Alina Urquhart]

All right.

[Ash Kelly]

It would be negligible.

[Alina Urquhart]

Exactly.

[911 Operator]

Okay, anybody get any type of description of the person that came in at home? No idea. We have no description. We heard. We heard the chime and. And we heard the scream from our friend. Okay. And so we came running downstairs. We ran in. So you both was upstairs and your friend was downstairs? Yes. You heard the door open and then you heard the scream? We didn't. I didn't hear the door open until after the train. And then we ran down the stairs and we heard. We have an alarm, and so the chime went off. Okay. As the indoors, we really need the indoors. Okay, the arrow. Take the arrow now, ma'. Am. Go to the door. They should be pulling up any moment. Okay, I'm afraid you're gonna. The person who's downstairs was the person that was assaulted? No, we're in the. We're on the second floor. Okay, so somebody need to go ahead and open the door for the paramedics. You're not sure if that person's still in the home or not? I have no idea. Okay, we have paramedics in route. Okay, what time is it? What time is it at the moment? 23:54. It's 11:54, ma'. Am. Yes, I mean, I'll stay on the line with you. I will stay on the line till somebody gets here. Okay, I won't hang up. We need them right now. I'm not hanging up, but we need help.

[Ash Kelly]

Now, throughout this call, the story about the door chime, the scream, and Victor and Joe coming downstairs Changes multiple times. First Victor says, we heard the chime, then I heard the scream, and then we ran downstairs. The second time round, he says, we heard the scream, then I heard the chime, and we ran downstairs. And then finally he says, we heard the scream, we ran downstairs, and then we heard the chime.

[Alina Urquhart]

And I don't again think it's unimportant. It's not just him getting confused, because that second time when he says, we heard the scream, then we heard the chime, he specifically says, I heard the scream before I heard the chime. But the first time he said, we heard the chime, then we heard the scream. Like, he can't keep his story straight. And again, stressful situation, sure, but he's saying it with certainty. But he keeps saying it wrong.

[Ash Kelly]

And, like, the order could be muddled at first from shock, perhaps. But if you remember the first time Victor talked about the intruder, at the very start of the call, he doesn't mention a scream at all. He just says, we think there was an intruder, someone in the house. We heard the chime of the back door. So why wouldn't you mention the scream then? The chime could have been anyone. It's not a weird sound to hear. It's in your house all the time. But the scream of your friend seems odd.

[Alina Urquhart]

Not to mention they even have another lodger that lives in the house, like, in the basement below, who comes and goes and sets off the chime. So, like, the chime isn't like a bizarre thing. The scream is, but you don't mention the scream until nearly, like, halfway through the call. Again, weird. And then there's a statement. He says, I'm afraid to go downstairs. Why? In fact, if this is genuinely playing out, in which the men say that it did, right? They come downstairs, they find Robert stabbed. Why was Victor sent upstairs at all in the first place? Right? How do they know that it is safe upstairs? If I thought there could be someone somewhere in my house, I wouldn't want to be alone.

[Ash Kelly]

No.

[Alina Urquhart]

And I wouldn't want my loved one to be alone either. So it's. It's not Scooby Doo, where you're like, let's split up. You go upstairs, I'll stay down. You don't even know that this person isn't still in your house. You've just found your friend stabbed, so why are they, like, you go upstairs? According to them, according to Victor and Joe, they didn't see anyone fleeing from the house. They didn't even hear footsteps after they heard the Scream. They're very like, we didn't hear any footsteps. So that, for me, is. Then how do you know that the person even left your house? So why would you then corner yourself by going further into the house? If this was me, I'd want to.

[Ash Kelly]

Get the fuck out that house.

[Alina Urquhart]

I'd want to go wait outside until the police and the paramedics got there. Or stay together and tend to Robert. This idea of splitting up and you go upstairs, even though we don't know what's going on upstairs, that seems very bizarre if you don't already know who did this and therefore that there isn't a further threat. Again, just another little point worth mentioning. And so, yeah, I think it's during this call that I think Victor fucks up and he realizes that he's fucked up because the operator is pushing him. Like, so you heard the chime, you heard the scream, you went downstairs, you heard the scream, you heard that, like, she's. She's confused by it. And I think that's when he realizes he's messed up and he suddenly says, what's the time? Now, maybe, as a lot of people, like, theorize with this case, that it was to establish some sort of timeline with the operator. But, like, for me, I don't really see that because, like, the call time would be recorded anyway. A 911 call. The timings would be recorded.

[Ash Kelly]

That's a good point.

[Alina Urquhart]

So for me, it just feels like a way to distract. Like, what's the best way to distract in a situation is by asking a random, abrupt question about something else. Even those, like, weird little signs on the tube tell you, if you see somebody in trouble, ask them what time it is or ask, like, what the next stop is, because it can, like, break up a tense situation. And I kind of think that's what Victor's doing here. But again, maybe I'm thinking too much into it. Let's listen to the next bit.

[911 Operator]

Let me know when you hear the paramedics. Can you look out the window and see if you hear them coming? I'm looking out the window and I see nothing. I see nobody. Okay, it seemed like forever, but they are in route me and they're coming.

[Ash Kelly]

Here they are.

[911 Operator]

Here they are. They're there, going downstairs. Okay, I'll stand the line with you till you open the door for a pair of minutes. Okay? Help us. Reinforcement stats are on our second floor, man. It's gonna be ok.

[Alina Urquhart]

Okay, so this is the point at which the paramedics have arrived at the house and I think there is a real shift in Victor at this point. He now seems hysterical and sobbing, like, uncontrollably. But there's more distancing. He says to the paramedic, someone's been stabbed. Someone's been stabbed inside. And then there's the talking to himself. Victor, you can hear him say, what is this? What is this? And that's not to somebody. I think he's saying it to himself, because I think it's after the paramedics have gone into the house and he's still on the phone. And I genuinely think Victor is confused. I don't think he understands what's happened. And I'm going to put this out there. I don't think Victor was involved in the murder. Obviously, we're going to get to theories, like, way later, but I'm just going to put this out there now. And I think this, like, what is this? What is this? Is a real question that Victor is asking himself. But what's interesting is he never asks that on the 911 call. He never says that, which seems weird to me, because there's no confusion on the 911 call about what the fuck is happening. He's never like, what the fuck is going on? What is this? He asks that when he thinks he's alone by himself, talking to himself. Because it's only at this point that you hear the confusion. And I wonder if it's because he's done his job. He was told to call 911. He's called them, the authorities are now here, and he can, at least for now, stop the immediate act. And you see that glimpse of the fear, the panic and the confusion breaking through in Victor.

[Ash Kelly]

Paramedics arrived at the house at 11:54, and we watched an interview with Jeff Baker, a veteran EMS worker who was the first responder on the scene. And he says that when he got to the house, he was immediately met with an odd scene. Standing outside the house in a white bathrobe was Victor Zaborski. According to Baker, Victor was crying, which is what we heard, but wouldn't look at him. He just said, there's been a stabbing on the second floor, which we just heard. So Baker went inside, and as he walked up the stairs, he saw another man, also in a white bathrobe, in the hallway at the top of the stairs. This man was Dylan Ward. And according to Baker, he asked Dylan, what's going on? Dylan looked at him, didn't say a word, and just went into his bedroom, which is the first room. When you come up the stairs. So he just goes in there, shuts the door?

[Alina Urquhart]

Yeah. You're gonna start feeling on edge. And that's exactly how Baker feels. And he notes how weird this whole situation is. But he turns, he's there to do a job. And he walks down the hallway of the second floor and into the other bedroom. And in that other bedroom, he finds a third man, Joe Price. Joe is in his underwear, just his boxers, sitting on the edge of the pullout bed with his back to the door, not applying any pressure with a towel on Robert's wounds. Now, firstly, I'm sorry, but you think an intruder broke into your house and stabbed your friend to death, but you're sat in your underwear with your back to the door of the room in which it happened, so pretty much in the most vulnerable position you could possibly be in. Does that make sense? Again, if you don't already think the threat has been neutralised because you actually know what happened.

[Ash Kelly]

I'm trying to think what I would do. I'd sit outside on the front step waiting for the police to come is what I'd do.

[Alina Urquhart]

Exactly. You wouldn't sit with your back to the door in your underwear of the room in which there is a dead body of somebody who got stabbed in your house.

[Ash Kelly]

I might sit outside in my pants.

[Alina Urquhart]

That's fine. I just think again, one point at a time. I get it. It's weird. One in five Americans have learned a new language on their bucket list. If that's you, make 2025 the year you finally check it off with Babbel, the language app that makes grammar fun and is actually worth your time. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 55% off your BABBEL subscription at BABBEL.com TrueCrime. Get up to 55% off at BABBEL.com truecrime spelled B-A-B-B-E-L.com TrueCrime rules and restrictions may apply.

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[Alina Urquhart]

So Baker, who explains in the Peacock documentary how he has been to countless crime scenes in his long career as an EMS worker, said that something definitely felt off here. He said he was unnerved and the hairs on the back of his neck were standing on end. Now, again, obviously that is just anecdotal evidence from Baker. Like you can take that with a, with a grain of salt. I'm sure it kind of didn't help that Dylan Ward just sort of ignores him and goes into a room, but there's something there that's putting him off. So Baker walks into this room in which Joe Prices sat and saw that on the bed lay the body of a fourth man, Robert 1. Robert was laying on the pullout sofa bed like he was asleep, but in his chest were three stab wounds.

[Ash Kelly]

A bloody knife was on the bedside table and Robert's clothes, watch and wallets were all neatly placed on a chair at the end of the bed. Joe Price told Baker, I heard a scream, so I came down and found this knife laying on his chest. Baker found it odd, given the three stab wounds to the chest, just how little blood there was at the scene. And he's not wrong. We've all seen crime photos before with just one stab wound that look like a bloodbath, but there's just so little blood here. There's nothing on the walls or on the ceiling. There's no cast off, no spray, nothing on the floor, just a little bit on the bedsheets.

[Alina Urquhart]

It's a shockingly small amount of blood on the towel. There's just like three sort of splotches on the bedsheet. And yeah, like tmi, but like I've had heavier periods that have leaked, like it's nothing compared to the injuries that Baker is being presented with.

[Ash Kelly]

Baker also thought that the blood on Robert's midsection looked like it had been wiped. There were smears like when you clean a window. He also noted that he thought Robert looked like he had been stabbed, showered, redressed and then put back in the bed.

[Alina Urquhart]

And it was strange to Baker on top of all of this, that the three non dead guys in the house were all either wearing white bathrobes or were just in their boxes. And all of them, according to him, looked like they had just showered, complete with wet hair. Now I guess, look, it wasn't that late. I think when you hear this story and like how bonkers it is, do you imagining it's happening at 1 in the morning? No, it's like they call the ambulance at 11:49 and they're there before midnight, they're there within six minutes. So like it's really not that late. And the three men did all later say that they had worked out that evening and they'd had showers before they went to bed. Now some people argue, well, it was a very hot August night, if that was really true, that they had showered before they went to bed and they'd all been asleep just before they called 911. Like how long would your hair still be wet? But I'm sure, you know, it's America, they have aircon. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not like.

[Ash Kelly]

No, I'm not. I'm not hanging anything that much on that.

[Alina Urquhart]

No, no, sure. Now the reason people obviously bring this up is because some people speculate that the freshly showered look of the men plus the total lack of blood at the scene indicates a cleanup. We are going to come onto this in a big way next week. For now, all I will say is that no one, not the paramedics, not the police, nobody who was in that house ever reported the house smelling like bleach or cleaning products. So that's also not unimportant to note. But again, like I said, we'll come back to that next week.

[Ash Kelly]

For now we're going to stay on the scene. Baker checked Robert's body over and although he was certain that Robert was indeed dead, he did make the call to take Robert to George Washington University Hospital. In the ambulance. The paramedics made some life saving attempts, but Robert was officially pronounced dead on arrival. Kathy Wohn, Robert's wife, received a call shortly after midnight from Joe Price telling her that Robert had been stabbed and that she needed to get to the hospital as soon as she could. It was only once Kathy arrived that she learned her husband was dead. In hindsight, Baker does say that he wishes he'd left Robert in the bed because moving him definitely disrupted potential evidence. And as we'll all go on to see, the life saving attempts also interfered with possible explanations for what happened to Robert that night.

[Alina Urquhart]

Meanwhile, Joe Price, Victor Zaborski and Dylan Ward were All taken down to the Violent Crimes Branch to be interviewed. And I think the police felt pretty confident quite early on that they were dealing with suspects here and not witnesses. So let's now listen to a few clips from the initial interview with Joe. They are interviewed multiple times, by the way. So if you just Google, like Joe Price police interviews, there are so many that come up. This is the first time that he is questioned and it is remarkable to see his demeanour and the story change throughout each of the retellings.

[Joe Price]

Fingerprinting that knife, I mean, somebody jumped our fence and went through that door. You use that. Tell you what, what I know we have an alarm system was the alarm was not on, but it has a function where the doors chime. If you open the doors, whether they want or not.

[Ash Kelly]

The.

[Joe Price]

After Robert was there, we had drinks around the, you know, sink, went upstairs. We showed Robert where the shower was, where the bathroom was right down the hall. Here's your bed. We already made out the pull out bed for him. We said good night. He said he was going to take a shower. Then he was all sticky. I went upstairs, like saw the last five minutes of the show and then started watching. The first 10 minutes looked like some other thing on Spike TV. And I knew Victor was getting annoyed that I wasn't turning off the tv so I turned it off and he went to sleep. The next thing that I know, I hear the chime. It's two beeps.

[Police Detective]

You don't know what happened until you.

[Joe Price]

Heard the chime, right? I don't know what happened until I hear the chime.

[Dylan Ward]

So you wasn't asleep?

[Joe Price]

I was asleep, but it wakes me up. There are two control units. Yes, one's down on the first floor. So I hear that. It doesn't concern me. It wakes me up, but I hear it and I think, oh, Sarah came home. Sarah's our tenant. She lives down in the basement. She had said to us, I'm going to go to Tom and John tonight. I might come back, I might not. She occasionally does that. They have a guest room to just crash there. I thought she came home, no problem. She's very heavy. She doesn't come upstairs. I wasn't worried about like, well, she's gonna come find Robert and have a cow or anything. And she just come in and go downstairs. I don't know how long it was from when I heard the chime. It was not long enough for me to go back to sleep. And I hear what is, you know, it was, it was yelling, but it wasn't it was just like grunts or something.

[Police Detective]

But you don't know how long it was.

[Joe Price]

I don't know how long it was, but it was not. I didn't fall back to sleep. I was still awake when I heard it. And it was pretty close in time to right after I hear the chime. So Victor and I both jump out of bed. We run downstairs. There's, you know, the stairs end at the door. You know, I see the doors open. I see Robert is laying there. The bed cover is pulled back. He's laying there. There is blood on him. His hand was out, like what? I was out like, like this. And one arm was like this, I think, or somewhere across his body. And there was a knife, I believe it was laying on him on, like, on his stomach or something like that. I picked up the knife. I moved it. I lifted up his shirt, and I could see clearly, see there was one, you know, puncture wound right on his belly. I lifted him up his shirt a little more. There was, like, a lot of blood on his chest. Before I touched Robert, I, I. Victor became very hysterical, and I yelled at him to go call 91 1. You know, just go do that. He ran upstairs, he got the phone. He came back down, or whatever was on the phone with him. He gave. He handed me a towel. You know, they were telling him to apply pressure. You know, we were doing that. I was yelling at him about, tell them, you know, we need an ambulance right now. We need an ambulance right now. And, you know, the. Eventually, the. The ambulance got there. The, you know, big guys came up, they got Robert, put him on a stretcher, and, you know, the police were right after them. Basically, at some point, we went downstairs. I think we were told we had to go downstairs.

[Alina Urquhart]

And.

[Joe Price]

When I got downstairs, Dylan or somebody might have been one of the officers said, oh, I think it was Dylan, that the. That the back door was open, you know, or ajar, unlocked, whatever. And I looked at it right then, and in fact, the door was, you know, a little open. It wasn't completely closed, but it was closed. That's it.

[Alina Urquhart]

Okay.

[Police Detective]

When you came downstairs, you came by yourself?

[911 Operator]

Yeah.

[Joe Price]

Victor and I ran down the stairs together.

[Police Detective]

And then what. What'd you see?

[Joe Price]

The door was there. It was open. There was Robert laying on the bed. The COVID was pulled back.

[Police Detective]

Where's Dylan?

[Joe Price]

He was in his room. I saw him, you know, I don't know in this time frame, come out of his room. He was. He, you know, I don't think he heard the chime you don't know? I don't know, but I don't know. I saw him come out of the room. He was putting on a bathroom when he came out.

[Ash Kelly]

I don't like Joe.

[Alina Urquhart]

No, I don't like Joe.

[Ash Kelly]

He's definitely a type. A type of person. Alpha, loud, confident, gratingly obnoxious would be my descriptor. But even if we put all of that to one side, the whole interview is weird anyway. He absolutely is trying his very best to maintain control, but he's also fidgety and comes across quite wired. And of course, being interviewed by the police is scary for anybody. But what struck me the most is that Joe doesn't really seem that curious about who could have done this, who could have broken into his house and killed one of his other oldest friends. He's not bothered at all about what police are doing to find out who actually did this. I think it's so obvious from even the way he's sitting. He's like, I'm not scared. Like, that's kind of like the vibe I got from it out the gate. Like, I'm not afraid. I'm not worried.

[Alina Urquhart]

No. I feel like it feels high octane. Like, I feel like this has happened. And he's like, right. But he's confident that he can talk his way out of this. And he just talks and talks and talks and talks and talks, and he's very, like. He's trying his best to be very disarming.

[Ash Kelly]

Unfortunately for him, his story doesn't actually make that much sense. He talks about the chime of the back door and the grunting and then the chime again. But he never heard any footsteps going up or down the stairs. Everyone who went through that house during the investigation agreed that it was an old house with wooden stairs that are old and creaky. So how could it be that Jo was woken up by the first door chime, didn't hear any footsteps, but heard some soft grunting from the floor below, and then heard the chime go again. But still no footsteps before the second chime. Could the intruder have levitated up and down the staircase like we all did when we were children? I know we all remember, but it is strange. If you're going to lie about hearing door chimes, why wouldn't you just lie about footsteps as well?

[Alina Urquhart]

I don't know. I don't know. Maybe to keep the timelines fuzzy. But then the second chime, the door going off, is them suggesting that the person was leaving. So I don't know I don't know, it's weird. But I think more than that, what is weird to me is the behaviour that Jo himself confesses to in this clip that we just heard. And it's the stuff about Dylan, because Joe just says that Dylan was in his room. And then at some point during that situation, after they found Robert stabbed and near death or already dead, that Dylan came out of his room putting a robe on. So basically what he's saying is that he heard some noise downstairs that was scary enough to make him and Victor run downstairs. They come downstairs, they don't see anybody fleeing. They find Robert stabbed, but they don't go check on Dylan, whose room is just down the hall. They never knock on his door. They're never like, dylan, get the fuck up, Robert's been stabbed. Or are you okay? Like, there's none of that. They just wait with Robert. They send Victor upstairs and they just wait for Dylan to come out of his room putting his robe on because he's been woken up by the noise that they're now making. I don't get that. Why would you just wait for Dylan to make an appearance? Really? What if Dylan was being attacked in his room by this same person who's now gone in there and shut the door? You're not gonna check again? It comes back to, for me, a consciousness of guilt, right? It comes back to the fact that you know that the threat has already been dealt with because you know who did it. Otherwise, why are you not checking on Dylan? Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. So, yeah, next clip.

[Joe Price]

I know you guys have to figure everything out, you know, Barber's one of my oldest friends. I went to his wedding. You know, he was a. He was a freshman in college when I was a senior. His parents were on my college tour, you know.

[Police Detective]

Is he homosexual?

[Joe Price]

No, not gay. Never has been. Didn't think about it, you know, no drugs, no booze, no nothing. Robert was like the, you know, best, you know, absolutely straight A, you know, no nonsense guy I ever met.

[Police Detective]

But he didn't. Where was his wife all this time?

[Joe Price]

What do you mean?

[Police Detective]

Well, she wasn't. She didn't come over with him?

[Joe Price]

No, no, she was at home. I saw his wife recently. I saw her like on Monday. She got a new job herself. She just had like hip replacement surgery and she got a new job working right across the street from me.

[911 Operator]

So we.

[Joe Price]

We. She, Robert and I actually all tried to go to lunch together last week and Robert couldn't do it. But Kathy and I went and, you Know, like I said, I know Victor and d like better when I know my mother. There's no chance on the face of this earth that either one of them could, you know, punch someone, never mind, you know, kill someone. It's. It's ridiculous.

[Alina Urquhart]

Firstly, here with this clip for me is like all of the unnecessary extra information about Kathy, who's Robert's wife, like, telling the police that he and Kathy had gone for lunch, that she's got a new job, that she's just had surgery. Sorry, Robert's just been killed. What's that got to do with anything? And I get it, like people do, fear based babbling like that can happen. But what's very odd to me beyond that, if you want to ignore the whole Kathy thing, what's very, very odd to me is just how certain Joe is that Victor and Dylan must be innocent. He says in that clip that we just heard, I know them both better than I know my own mother. What, What a fucking weird thing to say. Like, okay, with Victor. Okay, right? Like he is Joe's husband for all intents and purposes, right? They call each other husband and husband. Gay marriage hasn't been legalized yet, but they see themselves as husband and husband, right? And they were in bed together and they came downstairs together, according to their story, to find Robert. So, yes, I could understand somebody saying, I know my husband didn't do this. I was with him. He was with me in bed all night. We came downstairs and we found Robert together. So I know Victor didn't do it. But how and why is Joe so sure that Dylan had nothing to do with Robert's murder? Because neither Joe nor Victor, according to their own stories, can testify as to Dylan's movements that night after they all went to bed at 10:45.

[Ash Kelly]

I don't think I'd be able to ever look myself in the face again if there was a stabbing inside my house and I don't wake my housemate up even if I've just met them.

[Alina Urquhart]

Yeah, I'm sorry, Even if you were in a fucking hostel.

[Ash Kelly]

Yes, absolutely.

[Alina Urquhart]

And you came downstairs and you happened to come across somebody who's been stabbed to death and there's a room next door. You're not going to be like, raise the fucking alarm. You should be like, I'll just sit here until the police get here. I'm sure you're all fine.

[Ash Kelly]

But actually, when it comes to Dylan's movements or innocence, how can either of them be so sure about any of it? Because he's just their lodger. No, he isn't. There's a lot of stuff going on in that house. And now has come the time to explore the quite complicated dynamic. If you have a look at this case at all, you will see the three men Joe, Victor and Dylan described as a throuple. That's not quite right. They were trying to make it into something sort of resembling that. They did call themselves a family, but at the time of the murders it was much less a three way relationship and more two. Two way relationships happening in the same roof. Which sounds horrendous, but both of these relationships, surprise, surprise, have Joe Price at the centre. So there's Joe and Victor and then then separately, but actually that's really in the same house. Joe and Dylan, Yeah. So it seems that Joe and Victor, who at the time of the murder had been together for six years, it appears that they had a traditional relationship. As SRU said, they refer to each other as husband and husband and they had even fathered a child, each with a lesbian couple that they were friends with. And they were very involved in those kids lives. And this seems to have been the life that Victor wanted. And while Joe may have been a top hotshot lawyer and definitely the alpha in the relationship, Victor's not an idiot. At the time he worked in marketing for the International Dairy Foods association and had actually been the point person on the Got Milk campaign. It all comes back to Tyra in the end. That's what we're learning.

[Alina Urquhart]

I know, I know, she rules us all, truly. But yeah, so they've got a very specific type of relationship, Joe and Victor, but Joe wanted something more. On top of this successful family man lifestyle, his four year relationship with Dylan seems to have been far more sexually motivated. And Dylan, he's a bit of a mystery, to be honest. I really did my best to like dig into his life and this is all I really could find out. Dylan Ward grew up the son of a very successful cardiologist. He went to Georgetown School of Foreign Service but dropped out. He then got a degree in Children's Literature from Simmons University. But after graduating, Dylan just flitted from job to job. He worked for a while at a publishing house in Asia, but that didn't work out. Then he decided he was going to be a chef and he enrolled at the Culinary Institute of America. But then that didn't work out and then he went travelling to Thailand, as everyone does, and became interested in alternative therapies. And Dylan had just started working as a masseuse around the time of the murder though I have seen many reports that masseuse was just code for escort, and that's very possibly true.

[Ash Kelly]

Dylan and Jo's relationship was one that does appear to have centred on bdsm. Jo was the submissive and Dylan the dominant. That's not massively surprising. Generally speaking. It is typically people who are large and in charge in their everyday lives who like to be dominated in these BDSM type situations. When the police searched Dylan's room, it was full of all sorts of wild sexual equipment. Ball gags, cages, heavy duty restraints, giant dildos, limb spreaders, whips, electric shock machines, all of it. And it really is. There's pictures, It's a lot, hundreds of.

[Alina Urquhart]

It's not just like a little fun box with some fluffy handcuffs in? No, it's like full on.

[Ash Kelly]

And it's possible that Victor was not into any of that at all. So Joe convinced him to let him have a live in fuck buddy.

[Alina Urquhart]

That's basically what I think it was.

[Ash Kelly]

Stranger things have happened.

[Alina Urquhart]

Yeah, I think they're like, look, we're happy, we're in a relationship. We're basically married. We got these kids and they do a lot of advocacy work, which we'll come on to talk about. But like, Jo's like, there's something else I need and wouldn't you rather me just have a man in the house that you know and you can see and maybe you'll even get involved sometimes, but I'll just have one man who lives here and who services me. A houseboy in that situation. Very, very important part of this story, I think. And look, with this whole throuple slash two people relationship, whatever's going on in this house, it's not for me. It sounds fucking horrible. If you can make that kind of thing work, then go for it. But I do not believe for a second that there was not huge amounts of tension.

[Ash Kelly]

Oh, yeah.

[Alina Urquhart]

In that house.

[Ash Kelly]

100%. Lots of slamming doors. Oh, yeah.

[Alina Urquhart]

Yeah. Even in that clip that we heard of Joe, you hear him say, I was watching TV and Victor was getting annoyed with me for not turning it off. I think it's just, it's. I know it just feels like one small thing, but I think Victor was pissed that night. And again, we'll come back to that next week. But yes, this dynamic between Joe, Dylan and Victor is absolutely, in my opinion, crucial to this case.

[Police Detective]

So the scenario you're telling is a burglar comes in the house for the sole purpose of coming upstairs and stabbing a person who spent one, you know, half an hour in your house?

[Joe Price]

No, I don't. I don't think they knew anybody was there. All I can imagine. And this. I mean, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. I've never been bugged. My house has never broken into. My car was broken into.

[Dylan Ward]

First of all, your house wasn't broken.

[Police Detective]

It still hadn't been broken into.

[Joe Price]

So I. I understand where you guys are coming from with this, but someone came in our house, took that knife. They came through the back door.

[911 Operator]

How?

[Joe Price]

You know, I heard the chuck time. The front door of the house was definitely locked.

[Ash Kelly]

And.

[Police Detective]

And then. Did you hear the chime when they went out?

[Joe Price]

I did not hear. Well, Victor told me that he believes he heard the chime again. I didn't hear it.

[Police Detective]

And then this person.

[911 Operator]

They.

[Police Detective]

Then what they do? Jump the fence.

[Joe Price]

Yeah. And I was sitting in the living room saying to Dylan, like, why in the hell would you jump the fence? Why. Why wouldn't the person going out the back door go through the gate?

[Dylan Ward]

How do you know?

[911 Operator]

Amen.

[Police Detective]

Good thinking.

[Joe Price]

Because I didn't get to go out there. But, you know, the gate was okay.

[Alina Urquhart]

There's just. It's. Honestly, there's hours and hours of interview footage that I have watched and listened to, and it is a treasure trove of just bizarreness. And I get it. You could listen to innocent people talking for hours and find weirdness. But, like, some of this is just so telling. I love that the police are. You know, they do a terrible job for a lot of this investigation, but I think the initial detectives are asking all the right questions. And again, here, when he says, I didn't hear the chime of the door go again. Victor told me he heard it again. Then why are you sending Victor, your beloved husband, up to make a call from your bedroom? Why are you splitting up from him if you didn't even hear the person leave the house? But that aside, I love the bit where Joe's like, that's what I said to Dylan when we were sat in the living room. I was like, why in the hell would the person jump out of the back? Why wouldn't they go out the front door? And again, I know I'm coming at this from my bias, but it feels a lot like a conversation. They were trying to have to get their story straight. Like, they're like, how are we gonna say this person got out? And they're like, we'll say we got out the back, because we can't say he went out the front for various reasons. Maybe they're CCTV again, it's not that late. Maybe they're worried somebody would have seen somebody fleeing. So, like, we'll say he went out the back. And as we'll go on to talk about getting into and out of the back garden of this house, seems very difficult. But this, like, that's what I was saying to Dylan. How could somebody have done that? Why would somebody have done that? It feels like that's an argument they were having when they were trying to put this story together.

[Ash Kelly]

Sounds like me, Jo and Chris yesterday being like, okay, but who did it and why and how did they get away with it?

[Alina Urquhart]

Exactly, exactly. And they're just like, let's keep it as simple as possible. Chime, scream, chime in. Some, you know, combination of things. But let's not overcomplicate the story.

[Ash Kelly]

No, but I am making a musical statute.

[Alina Urquhart]

Yes.

[Dylan Ward]

Do you know a new Keep me door online?

[Joe Price]

Occasionally we leave the back door unlocked. Not. Not on purpose, but because we just forget to lock it. We. We grill out there, you know, four nights out of five. We grilled out there tonight. You know, the grill is literally out the back door. I mean, you know, it's like three feet away from the door. So, you know, it's. It is completely, really plausible that the door was unlocked.

[Dylan Ward]

Who, Who. How did you know the door was over?

[911 Operator]

Well, when we.

[Joe Price]

Well, like I said, when I came downstairs, Dylan or somebody else pointed out to me, oh, you know, the. The door was unlocked or whatever when they got down there.

[Police Detective]

This deed has been done.

[Victor Zaborski]

Yes.

[Police Detective]

You guys see the doors unlocked? So, yeah, maybe somebody had a key.

[Joe Price]

That's possible. I mean, but there were. I mean, other than us and our tenants there, there's a few contractors who have keys.

[Ash Kelly]

What he doesn't mention there is that his brother also has a key. But again, we will come back to that next week.

[Dylan Ward]

Do you know him to check the building right now?

[Joe Price]

Sometimes I do, Sometimes I don't. I mean, I. I don't remember doing that tonight. And in fact, while Dylan and Robert and I were talking around the sink, standing in the kitchen, I was looking out. The back door is all glass, and they have two big glass panels. And I look down and there's a. There's a light in one of the tree boxes that we're in, both. And I could see something, like, crawling around on top of it. It looked to me like a big bug. Anyway, I walked outside and looked at it and came back in. That was tonight, you know.

[Dylan Ward]

What time was that?

[Joe Price]

10:40 something. I mean, it was after Robert got there before we went upstairs and I don't, I can't tell you. Did I turn and lock the thing? I don't know.

[Dylan Ward]

You know, the area, it's a high frying rate of burdens, right?

[Joe Price]

No, you, you didn't know? No, no, it's. I mean, we know some of our neighbors. You know, I think of it as a very safe place. You know, we, the one thing we ever worried about was the guy living in the van behind the house. We, we called the police about that cuz we saw the guy getting in the van and we thought someone's breaking into the van. And the cops came and they said no, they talked to some people, they came over, they said actually the guy has permission or something to live there.

[Police Detective]

Yeah, he does. So does live there.

[Joe Price]

That's what. That was the one and only time I ever felt unsafe. I mean, you know, the back, the alley is very well lit, you know that we know the people not directly across with, across the way. I mean, you know, Right. So that if you drive back there, it's all, it's, you know, there's Mercedes, Mercedes, Mercedes. I mean, other people like us, we spent a million two on the house.

[Dylan Ward]

But you said, you said you feel unsafe, so.

[Joe Price]

No, I didn't say that. No.

[Police Detective]

The only time was because when you.

[Joe Price]

Saw this guy going, yeah, breaking in the van. Yeah, I thought, oh, that's, that's, you know, suspicious. Our actually, our tenant Sarah was the one who insisted on calling the cops because she actually saw the guy. You know, she was all like wigged out. Oh, we better call.

[Dylan Ward]

What time did you set the alarm.

[Joe Price]

And we didn't put the alarm on. We don't, we're generally. We don't put it on at night when we're home, we don't turn it on. You know, when we leave the house, we usually turn it on. I don't know.

[Police Detective]

Truth be true told when Sarah comes home, if it's on, she comes in and disarms it.

[Joe Price]

Is she knows the code? Yes.

[Police Detective]

So she be able to tell us about coming in?

[911 Operator]

Sure.

[Police Detective]

Whether it's on or not? All that kind of stuff.

[Joe Price]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. So she actually like, you know, at some point.

[Police Detective]

Does she put it on when she comes in?

[Joe Price]

Now, when she comes in, anytime any of us leave the house, we usually put it on. Although we weren't doing that for probably the first six to eight months we lived there. I mean, we had the system that was installed when we got, you know, we bought the house but she, again, she know, she's. She is a little, I think, more paranoid or whatever. So, you know, she said at some point in the year to Victoria, you know, oh, you know, we should start using the alarm, you know, when we come and go.

[Police Detective]

So.

[Joe Price]

So now we do, but never at night. We've never. Ever since we've lived there, we've never put the alarm on at night. I know that may sound completely stupid. I looked on Capitol Hill on Constitution and 11th for five years in a, you know, quote unquote fringe neighborhood. You know, nothing ever happened. It was safe. It was fine.

[Police Detective]

I can show you murders with them. I can throw a Rock from 11th and Constitution to several bodies.

[Joe Price]

I'm just the oblivious, stupid, you know, guy living in Washington. Here's.

[Ash Kelly]

This one doesn't really make a whole ton of sense. There's a lot of rambling with regards to the alarm. He lives in the city. It's a nice house, and, like, fine. And sure, people buy alarms and they don't bother setting them, but you don't worry at all about safety.

[Alina Urquhart]

He says repeatedly in the interviews. Like, oh, nothing bad's ever happened to me. I never. I never worry about safety. I'm like, you never. But you've got a little unit that chimes in your bedroom when the back door opens, but you don't care at all about safety.

[Ash Kelly]

I don't to not even check that your door's locked.

[Alina Urquhart]

Like, oh, yeah, no, we. Like, the door might have been open. Sometimes we just leave the door open. Okay, okay, Jo.

[Ash Kelly]

He also tries to brush it all off and just say, like, oh, I guess I'm just stupid. Which I just don't believe is a word he's ever used to describe himself before. Again, a disarming attempt to present himself as a bit naive, possibly. And it's kind of like a. It's just a universal response, isn't it? Don't have to explain myself if I'm an idiot, do I?

[Alina Urquhart]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's the bit about the spider that we just heard. So he's basically saying, oh, yeah. We were all standing around. We were having a drink of water when Robert came into the house. We're standing in the kitchen. I saw this giant spider out the back of the window, like, in the back garden, and I just went to investigate. So it doesn't say it, but it's basically an explanation for why the door could have been left unlocked because he just went out there to look at the spider and may have left the door Unlocked. I'm just like, you saw a spider at 10:40pm in your garden and you just had to go take a look at it.

[Ash Kelly]

Why?

[Alina Urquhart]

Like, it's such a weird thing to say. And maybe you'd be like, it's so weird, it could just be true. But no, I think it's just to provide a weird, semi reasonable explanation for why the door was unlocked.

[Ash Kelly]

My sister was telling me last night that her friend of hers just moved house. There's a massive spider's nest outside the front door and the spiders are so big they set off the ring doorbell. The ring doorbell thinks they are people.

[Alina Urquhart]

No, thank you.

[Ash Kelly]

They are so massive.

[Alina Urquhart]

That's diabolical. And look, maybe much like your sister's unfortunate friend, there was a giant spider out there. Because actually, when the police got there, there were cobwebs all over the top of the very tall fences in the back garden. These fences in the back garden of this house, we're talking seven foot, seven foot tall and the tops of them covered in pollen and cobwebs. Right. Which is very strange if a person climbed into.

[Ash Kelly]

It's all getting very JonBenet Ramsey, isn't it?

[Alina Urquhart]

Exactly. Climbed into your garden over these fences and then climbed back out over the fences without disturbing these cobwebs and this pollen. And again, you could say standalone piece of information doesn't mean much, but I feel like it's all adding up. I think it's also very much worth mentioning the fact that none of the neighbours saw or heard anything, even though, again, it wasn't that late, nor did they see anybody fleeing out the back across their gardens. Remember, this house is a mid terrace, so where else is this person going to go? There is an alley behind the house, but there's a garage first. So this person would have had to jump onto the roof of the garage and then fall into the alley if they didn't go through other people's gardens. Like a mid terrace is like one of the safest places you can be. Like, how is somebody getting in and out with none of the neighbors seeing anything very unusual? There was also no disturbance to the soil in the planting beds around the fence of the men's garden, which again, if somebody has landed in that bed, which presumably you would do if you dropped over a fence, how is none of the soil getting disturbed? Very strange. Right. So all this, rightly, I think, made it very hard for the police to believe that an intruder had come into the house that night.

[Police Detective]

Well, nobody broke in that. That house tonight. There's no evidence of anybody breaking in that house tonight.

[Joe Price]

Somebody came in.

[Dylan Ward]

Well, we also talked to some of your neighbors, and some of your neighbors just happened to be out. No, nobody saw anybody come back there and nobody. So anybody.

[Joe Price]

I mean, you know, if. If there. If there was any other possibility, you know, I'd be right there with you guys saying, okay, maybe this happened or maybe that happened. But, you know, there were the three of us in there, you know, I know. Like I said, I know Victor and Dylan better than I know my mom. There is no chance on the face of the earth anybody did anything to Robert. I mean, that. That is not the answer here.

[Dylan Ward]

You saying that you know them?

[Joe Price]

How well do they know me? I would say they would tell you the same.

[Dylan Ward]

You sure?

[Joe Price]

I would say so, yeah.

[911 Operator]

Yeah.

[Joe Price]

I mean, yeah, you can ask him, but, I mean, yeah.

[Dylan Ward]

What time did you discover the body?

[Alina Urquhart]

My.

[Joe Price]

Not exactly sure what time, but I. I know that I turned the TV off around 1105, 1110, something like that. And when we were on the phone with 91 1, I. Victor asked them what time it was, and the person said, you know, told him it was 1143. So, you know, they be 1140, I don't know, 1135, something like that.

[Police Detective]

And they told you to put new compressions on his.

[Joe Price]

They told Victor that. And yeah, they said, apply pressure. I. And, you know, I don't know if they told me to check for a pulse or I was checking for a pulse, but I was looking for a pulse.

[Police Detective]

And you moved them up?

[Joe Price]

I did move it.

[Police Detective]

Nobody else?

[Joe Price]

Nobody else.

[Dylan Ward]

You said that.

[Ash Kelly]

That.

[Dylan Ward]

Let me go back to this time. You have feelings. You said that you found the body at what time?

[Joe Price]

I went to sleep at 1105, 11. I turned off the TV at 11:05 or 11:10. I was asleep shortly thereafter.

[Victor Zaborski]

Okay.

[Joe Price]

And we were on the phone with 911 already applying pressure, you know, at 11:43. So somewhere in that period, you know, five minutes, maybe before, I mean, as soon as I saw Robert, you know, and could stop Victor from screaming, I, you know, I told him to run up and call 91 1. So it was.

[Dylan Ward]

And that's minutes within, right when you sold by?

[Victor Zaborski]

Yes.

[Dylan Ward]

How many minutes gone?

[Joe Price]

Not even one. Not even one.

[911 Operator]

If.

[Joe Price]

If it was one, it was one. I mean, as soon as I saw it and I. I grabbed, you know, Victor, who was literally hysterical and said, go call 91 1. And he ran upstairs.

[Dylan Ward]

And Victor told you that the. The person that he was talking to on the 911 call said it was like 11:43.

[Joe Price]

Yeah, yeah. They. I mean, he asked them, what time is it? And, you know, I was yelling, you know, we need any now. Yes, I believe he asked them to say what time, you know, to tell him what time it was.

[Alina Urquhart]

And this bit brings us Back to the 911 call. How does Joe know? Because that's what we just heard. How does Joe know that? Victor asked the operator what time it was. He says Victor asked the operator what time it was, and this is what the operator said. They were supposedly on different floors. Victor was supposedly on the third floor. Joe was supposedly on the fucking second floor. How does he know? Let's say they spoke about it afterwards. Right? Some point between the paramedics arriving and them getting carted down to the police station, they have a conversation about the 911 call. If they had spoken about it, why would Victor tell Joe. I asked them what time it was and this is what they said. Why would that be a conversation that you're having? It really feels to me like Joe wasn't with Robert, that he was standing next to Victor, telling him what to say. Why would that be a conversation you would have? It was such a pointless bit of the 911 call, but now Victor is apparently thinking it's so important, he told Joe. I don't get it. And, look, it's all just weird, but it really, really feels to me like Joe was in the room with Victor and he was telling him what to say. And that's why Victor gets distracted at certain points. But it's being. It's being orchestrated.

[Dylan Ward]

When you came downstairs, what. What brought you downstairs?

[Alina Urquhart]

The.

[Joe Price]

The grunting, yelling, whatever. Yeah, in that.

[Ash Kelly]

The what?

[Joe Price]

It wasn't, you know, it wasn't like someone said, hey, what are you doing here? Or anything like that. There weren't words. What I heard was, like, noises, but it's. It definitely did not sound.

[Dylan Ward]

You got me confused again, because I clearly asked you earlier, did you hear anything else? Did you hear anybody scream? You said it was absolutely quiet.

[Joe Price]

You know, you said right after the chime. There was a period of time after the chime when I was laying there. I didn't hear anything. I. I heard the chime. I said, I thought, oh, Sarah's.

[911 Operator]

Come on.

[Joe Price]

Rolled back over, you know, I wasn't awoken again. I never went back to sleep. The time period was that close. I mean, it was. You know, I don't know if it was 30 seconds, a minute, whatever, but I didn't go back to sleep. I heard The. The disturbance. And we both jumped up. Victor heard it, too. I mean, it wasn't the kind of thing you hear in your house. And we'd all go down and look.

[Dylan Ward]

So at what point did Victor wake up? Because you said he was sleep.

[Joe Price]

I may have woken him up. I don't know.

[911 Operator]

I mean.

[Dylan Ward]

No, no, you may. You even know or you didn't.

[Joe Price]

It ain't no way. I don't know. I don't remember. You know.

[Dylan Ward]

See, the story is starting to bother me because first you told my partner that you was waking the first time by the. By the shame. And then he was waking it again by. You may have thought that he went in and may have thought that he went out. You said you didn't hear any noise.

[Joe Price]

Now, you asked me if I was. If I heard the chime. I said yes. Then it was quiet. It was quiet. I didn't hear anything.

[Dylan Ward]

Right now you're saying that you hear.

[Joe Price]

A grumping noise after the period of silence? I hear the chime. There's a period of silence. There's grunting.

[Dylan Ward]

Grunting.

[Joe Price]

Something like that.

[Dylan Ward]

Loud.

[Joe Price]

Several of them. And we run downstairs, stairs.

[911 Operator]

Who.

[Ash Kelly]

Who.

[Dylan Ward]

Who went downstairs?

[Joe Price]

Me and Victor.

[Dylan Ward]

And did Victor hear this?

[Joe Price]

Yeah, I'm sure when you guys talked to him, he told you he did.

[Dylan Ward]

No, I'm asking you, did he hear this?

[Ash Kelly]

You.

[911 Operator]

You. Right.

[Dylan Ward]

So what conversation did you and him have after hearing that noise?

[Joe Price]

We didn't have any. We just got up and we ran downstairs. I mean, this is all like that.

[Dylan Ward]

So you didn't say what's going on? Is that. Is somebody in trouble? Is it.

[Joe Price]

No.

[Dylan Ward]

Did you yell out for anybody at all? Did you say, hey, Rob, you okay?

[Joe Price]

I may have said Robert when I ran down the stairs, but, yeah, we.

[911 Operator]

We.

[Joe Price]

It was instantaneous. We jumped out of bed. We ran down the stairs.

[Dylan Ward]

After you heard the first. Sean. Sean, after you heard that. That noise, how many minutes or seconds gone by when you heard the grunt?

[Joe Price]

I don't know. And all I can tell you is I didn't fall back to sleep. It was close in time.

[Dylan Ward]

Did you say seconds earlier.

[Joe Price]

And then it might have been a second. Might. I said a minute or two minutes.

[Alina Urquhart]

I don't know.

[Ash Kelly]

So.

[Police Detective]

Well, let me just say this. You hear the grunting, and now you're instantly running down the stairs, virtually, right?

[Victor Zaborski]

Yeah.

[Police Detective]

But no one else is in your house at that point?

[Joe Price]

We don't know. We don't know. You'll see on the 911 tape, Victor didn't even want to Go downstairs because he. Onto the first floor because he was afraid the person was still in our house.

[Police Detective]

Okay, but as you're running down the stairs, is your theory that he's running down the other stairs, this person?

[911 Operator]

No.

[Joe Price]

No, I. I don't know what's going on.

[911 Operator]

I.

[Joe Price]

You know, it's. It's not even asking. No, I don't know. It's. I don't believe it's. At that point, it is not even in the realm of public possible that anything has happened to Robert. All I know is I heard some.

[Police Detective]

Noise, but really something did. So what I'm asking you is where'd this guy go?

[Joe Price]

I believe he ran out of the.

[Police Detective]

House between the grunting and you running down the stairs, which happens like.

[Joe Price]

Yeah, yeah, that's fast. I agree with you. Look, it's a crazy. I mean, why didn't he. Why wasn't the back door wide open? Why wasn't the gate wide open? Why didn't he go out the front door?

[Dylan Ward]

Yeah, but you would think that you were running to this guy, or you would see this guy running.

[Joe Price]

Yeah, maybe because you said seconds. Yeah. I mean, really, was that minute seconds? Yeah, I think.

[Dylan Ward]

Anybody running down the stairs or anything? So what makes you think it's a burger if you didn't hear anybody?

[Alina Urquhart]

Right?

[Police Detective]

Because he knows in his heart, couldn't.

[Joe Price]

Be, you know, it couldn't be Dylan. I know you knew. Guys don't know it was from Adam, so who knows? You know, we could all be crazy as loons, but, you know.

[Alina Urquhart]

All I.

[Joe Price]

Can tell you is it wasn't one of them. It wasn't me. We have no reason on earth to do this. I mean, I know Robert's whole family. I mean.

[Ash Kelly]

So detectives are just putting the pressure on really, aren't they? And pointing out all of the problems with the story. First off, Victor and Joe ran instantaneously down the stairs upon hearing the grunt. Why would they do that?

[Alina Urquhart]

Why would you do that? And it screams to me, like, of the Oscar Pistorius case, right? Where he's like, I heard some noises in the bathroom. I didn't even look at whether Reeva was in bed with me or not. I just got up, got my gun, and started shooting.

[Ash Kelly]

I've lived in a lot of house shares in my time. If I hear grunting, I ain't looking. No, I ain't knocking. I'm ignoring.

[Alina Urquhart]

This is what I mean. Victor says it's a scream.

[Ash Kelly]

Taking the piss out of them in the morning, Right?

[Alina Urquhart]

Victor says it was a scream. Joe only ever says it's grunting, Right? Why would grunting make you think? You need to sit up, you don't say a word they say. Did your partner Victor hear these sounds alone? I don't know. We didn't speak about it. We just immediately got up and ran downstairs. Why? If something strange happens, the first thing you would say to the person you're with is, did you hear that? What's that? What? What's going on? And then you would go together, just immediately get up and run downstairs because you heard some grunting. Why? That's strange, is it not? I don't get it.

[Ash Kelly]

And he says himself that at that point it didn't even cross his mind that something could have happened to Robert.

[Alina Urquhart]

But they ran downstairs and saw nobody. Saw nobody. Even though he says it was instantaneous. On hearing the grunting, he ran downstairs, but they didn't see. How did this ninja get out of this house?

[Ash Kelly]

And it does have to be said that during this particular interview exchange, Joe looked absolutely exhausted.

[Alina Urquhart]

Yeah, he does now. After this interview, Joe was told that he could go home. The police weren't ready to charge them yet and he was told he could leave, but he didn't. Joe went outside with Dylan, Victor and a friend of theirs who had come to the station to help out. They all got into a car and had a little chat. And after this chat, Joe still didn't go home. He came back into the police station and asked to speak to the lead detective.

[Ash Kelly]

He now claimed that he might have made a mistake, saying that he initially told them that when he found Robert, the knife had been on top of Robert's chest. But now he's saying that actually maybe the knife had been in Robert's chest and he had pulled it out. That's quite a big difference.

[Alina Urquhart]

Massive difference.

[Ash Kelly]

And why would that be the part of the story you decide to change? Maybe it's because during this little Mercedes meeting, Victor told Jo that he had confused the story.

[Alina Urquhart]

Yeah. Let's have a little listen to a clip of Victor's police interview. Did you tell him that he was stabbed?

[Victor Zaborski]

I don't remember. I probably did because I definitely at that time I'd been in the room and seen him, so I probably did say he was stabbed.

[Joe Price]

Did you see the knife?

[Victor Zaborski]

I'm confused now because I think I saw the knife the first time I came down the steps, but I really looked so quickly and was hysterical that I don't know whether I did or not. I thought I saw a black handle and I thought I Saw seemed when I was telling one of the other detectives, I was. I remember he had. I thought I saw one hand on his stomach. And. And then I remember he had. His one hand was, like, weird because it was, like, standing up and sort of twisted.

[911 Operator]

And.

[Victor Zaborski]

And so I thought I saw the handle of the knife resting against him. But when I first told the police officers or told the detectives here, I told him that he was holding his stomach. So I don't. I don't really know. I can't. I mean, I know he wasn't holding his stomach with both hands because I vividly remember now the hand because it was so awkwardly positioned.

[Alina Urquhart]

Yeah. Like, this is Victor in a whole load of confusion. Right. Because he's spoken to a police officer, like, at the scene or before getting into this interview room. And he said one thing, now he's saying something else. And this detective is very much aware, even though he hasn't heard the 911 call yet, but is already questioning something quite important to this story, I think, which is what we mentioned already coming Back to the 911 call. How did Victor know that it was their knife? That early on, he says himself there, I was so hysterical, I wasn't even sure if I had seen a knife. He says in this police interview, I literally says I wasn't even sure when I knew Robert had been stabbed. But he told the operator, which was a call supposedly made immediately after they found Robert. Because Victor was so hysterical, Joe sends him upstairs to make that call immediately. He repeatedly says that night to the operator, robert has been stabbed and the intruder has one of our knives. But now he says, I don't even know when I knew. It's so weird. It's so weird. It really speaks to there being a longer time, the past, between whatever happened to Robert and that 911 call being placed. So this detective, like I said, hasn't heard the 911 call yet, so doesn't know about this discrepancy, but is already challenging Victoria on how he was able to ascertain that much information about what had happened to Robert before the 911 call was made, especially given how hysterical Joe said Victor was and how quickly they claim to have made the call and the fact that Victor says he wasn't even on the same floor as them. So it's not like he's looking at Robert learning more information as he's looking at him. And Victor has definitely, I think, caused a big problem here for the group with this confusion, telling the first police officers that he Spoke to that he had seen the knife in Robert's stomach. But now saying that maybe it was leaning against his stomach or his side, it's created confusion because it doesn't match up with what Jo said.

[Ash Kelly]

If you're feeling generous, which I'm not, you can explain away Joe coming back in to change the story as him just wanting to be straight up with the police. But it's more likely, I think, that Victor fucked up by saying what he did, or they hadn't agreed as a group on what they were going to say about where the knife had been laid, or so their stories didn't match up and they realized that later on. I just don't really believe that Joe just forgot or was confused. He doesn't strike me as that kind of person. And it bears repeating. There is a big difference between finding a knife in your friend, pulling it out of your friend and it lying on top of them. Those are enormously different scenarios that you would probably remember, especially if you pulled a knife out of your friend. Yeah, kind of a core memory.

[Alina Urquhart]

Mmm, exactly. You'd hope so, wouldn't you? Now, a lot of people get very angry with the police having allowed the men to have this weird little Mercedes chat. And look, the police, like I said, they make a lot of fucking terrible, terrible mistakes in this case. And that's why no one has ever been prosecuted. Spoilers. But they weren't ready to arrest any of them that night. And so the authorities couldn't just hold Victor, Joe and Dylan indefinitely. They had to let them go at some point. And they can't stop them from talking to each other. I know it's like, not a perfect system, but people do, you know, collude and get their story straight. The job of the police is to still crack beyond that and find the truth. So, yeah, the police do fuck up a lot of stuff in a major way, as we're going to see, but I don't really see how they could have stopped this sort of meeting from happening.

[Ash Kelly]

We just heard one clip from Victor's interview, but we're going to have a listen to a bit more of it.

[Alina Urquhart]

But Joel was with you, Sarah was with me. It was Joe in the bedroom the whole time. With you before you heard the screams?

[Victor Zaborski]

Yeah, as far as I know.

[Alina Urquhart]

Yes, but because you had dozed off.

[Victor Zaborski]

I was asleep. I woke up to the screams and I just. I remember hearing the screams and jump, startling up, and I could feel Joe doing the same thing.

[911 Operator]

Okay.

[Alina Urquhart]

And you and Joel are partners? Yes. Right. And is Dylan in this relationship anywhere?

[Joe Price]

Yes, he is.

[911 Operator]

Okay.

[Ash Kelly]

All right.

[Alina Urquhart]

And you and Joe have known each other how long?

[Victor Zaborski]

For over six years.

[Alina Urquhart]

And you've been together that long? Yeah.

[Joe Price]

What about Dylan?

[Victor Zaborski]

Dylan's been with us for about four years.

[911 Operator]

Okay.

[Alina Urquhart]

Does she share an equal partner relationship or no?

[Victor Zaborski]

No, not really.

[Alina Urquhart]

Okay.

[Victor Zaborski]

I mean, it's. I think we're trying to develop it that. In that way, but it's okay.

[Alina Urquhart]

That's fine. You don't need to explain it any further.

[Ash Kelly]

Yeah, yeah. Seems like we were right about the tensions running quite high in the house.

[Alina Urquhart]

Definitely not an equal partnership.

[Ash Kelly]

Yeah. Victor doesn't sound thrilled when he's explaining the dynamics of this. What? He is aiming for three way relationship, but certainly doesn't appear to be anywhere near one.

[Alina Urquhart]

No.

[Ash Kelly]

And when you watch the footage of this interview, it does come across loud and clear that Victor is not happy. Victor didn't even know that Robert was staying over that night. He was supposed to be on a work trip to Denver, but he came back early. And it's probably that sort of thing that made him feel out of the loop in his own house. And Dylan also hints at this in his interview, saying that he had to open the door for Robert and let him in. And it was he and Joe who showed Robert up to the spare room. Victor was normally the host. That would be quite annoying.

[Alina Urquhart]

Yeah. I think from everybody who knows them say, like, Victor is the one who likes to host people. He's the one that plans things. He's the one that like, you know, keeps the guest room up and makes the canapes and does all of that. And so I think it was a bit of a shock to him to come home early from a work trip and they have dinner together. And it's only literally when Robert calls Jo at 10 and says, I'm on my way, that Joe's like, oh, yeah, by the way, Robert's staying over and there's definitely a feeling that Victor was pissed off at being A, not told about that and B, he doesn't play a part in the welcoming of Robert, which he normally would do. He stays in his room and, you know, this is kind of stuff that's come out afterwards. But I definitely think, you know, you could say it's just one pissy night. But I think it's important to how Dylan was making Victor feel or how Joe was making Victor feel. So let's listen to a bit more. Any problems between y'?

[Ash Kelly]

All?

[Alina Urquhart]

What about between Dylan and Robert?

[Victor Zaborski]

To be honest with you, I mean, we're Friends with Robert, but it's casual friends. I mean, I couldn't tell you five things about his life, really. I mean, I just. We've had dinner with them. We see them probably three or four times a year. Kathy and Robert.

[911 Operator]

Okay.

[Victor Zaborski]

The most recent time we saw them was Kathy. Kathy had hip surgery.

[Alina Urquhart]

Was it knee?

[Victor Zaborski]

It was hip surgery. And anyway, she had surgery, and so we all went out to visit her. We took her a gift basket with magazines and books, and Dylan even wanted to cook something. It's just we're. It's. There's absolutely no.

[911 Operator]

Okay.

[Alina Urquhart]

Now, this is weird because I think Victor here is. Is kind of trying to have it both ways. He describes his relationship with Robert as. We just heard, as casual. We were casual friends. But then he goes on to describe, in my opinion, what's a very uncasual relationship. Like, you know, the whole. Like, we took her this basket. We took Kathy this basket of, like, goodies, like a care basket after she's had surgery. That's not a casual friend. That's like doing something very nice for the wife of your friend. And you'll say, robert is casual.

[Ash Kelly]

I don't think I have any casual friends. What's a casual friend?

[Alina Urquhart]

Good fucking question.

[Ash Kelly]

An acquaintance.

[Alina Urquhart]

Yes.

[Ash Kelly]

But that's not a friend.

[Alina Urquhart]

No, it's basically saying it's an acquaintance. But I'm like, well, he's not an acquaintance. He's known Joe for years and years and years since they were at university together. And you have been with Joe for six years. They basically say, like, oh, we only see them maybe like six times a year. He says that in another interview. I'm like, six times a year. That's pretty good going if you live in cities once every two months. That's not a casual friend. No, that's a good friend. Like, it's all just very weird. And Dylan. Let's listen to a clip from Dylan because he runs with this same line.

[Dylan Ward]

How many arguments were wrong?

[Alina Urquhart]

No, not that I know it.

[911 Operator]

Did you?

[Victor Zaborski]

No, I hardly know the guy.

[Joe Price]

I mean, we've seen him.

[Victor Zaborski]

He's gone to a fundraising dinner with us. They've been at our house for breakfast when Kathy broke her hips or had them replaced. We took videos to their house and stuff. I mean, that's all. We know them kind of casually. He's, Joe's, you know, a friend from college.

[Alina Urquhart]

I hardly know the guy. Okay. And we don't have to just depend on anecdotal evidence for this or the fact that they have literally been in each other's lives for a very long time. But Joe threw Robert a surprise 30th birthday party at 1509 Swan St. Two years before the murder. And at that party, a picture was taken, which you can find on the Internet, of Dylan and Victor each holding up a separate birthday cake for Robert to blow out the candles. And they're all beaming. They're like, beaming in this picture. Am I hosting a 30th birthday party for somebody at my house who's a casual friend and also holding up the cake for them to blow out at that point in the party? And I'm just like, I barely knew the guy, barely fucking knew the guy. But I've got a massive grin on my face. It doesn't make sense to me. What they're trying to do is have it both ways, because what they do is they say, he's a casual friend, barely knew him, hardly knew the guy, so why would I kill him? But simultaneously be like, but look at all these nice things we did for Kathy after she had her operation. Why would we kill Robert? We're such good friends with him is the subtext. So it's like, you can't have it both ways.

[Ash Kelly]

There are lots of weird and confusing contradictions in this police interviews. And soon detectives got another piece of information that made the intruder story look all the more like total bullshit. As we told you at the top, Robert arrived at the house at around 10:30 in the evening. He was in his room by 10:45. He showered, changed, and wrote a couple of emails that he never sent, the last of which was saved at 11:07. And then at 11:49, the 911 call is placed. And something interesting to add to the timeline is that the next door neighbours, an elderly couple, said that they heard a scream that night coming from 1509 Swan Street. They didn't know exactly what time they heard it, but they were watching Maureen Bunyan, a new show that they tuned into every single night without fail. And that show is on between 11 and 11:30. And this is 2006 before, we just watched everything on demand. So that does help narrow down the timeline even more.

[Alina Urquhart]

I really think this is a very, very important piece because if we stick with the assumption that Robert was likely still alive at 11:07 when that last email was written, the scream had to have been heard before 11:30 because the couple say that they heard it during the Maureen Bunyan show. They just don't know at what time, even if the scream was as the show was about to end. So let's say 11:30 at most, the call wasn't placed for nearly another 20 minutes because a 911 call was placed at 11:49. Even though Victor and Jo both say that they ran downstairs as soon as they heard the grunting, screaming, whatever, and they both say that they immediately called 911. It doesn't add up because at most, if the scream heard next door happened at the start of the Maureen Bunyan show at 11, then that means there's a 40 minute window between the scream and the 911 call. Or at least, at the very least, there's a 20 minute window between the scream and the 911 call, which just doesn't make sense. Now, an interesting question I think, to ask is who do we think it was that actually screamed? Was it Robert or was it someone else? Perhaps somebody discovering Robert genuinely for the first time, or perhaps somebody discovering what was being done to him personally? And this is just my opinion, I don't think it was Robert who screamed. I think it was Victor who screamed and that's what the neighbours heard. We'll get into why next week when we go into the autopsy. But I think Victor came down, screamed, they heard it next door. And then that again gives you at least a 20 minute timeline or time gap between when the discovery is made and the 911 call is placed. Even if you don't believe me and even if you think it was Robert who screamed, they ran down immediately, apparently. But don't call the police for another 20 minutes. Why?

[Ash Kelly]

Given that the police did not believe an intruder had been inside the house, and since Victor and Joe could at least vouch for each other, investigators zeroed in on Dylan as the culprit pretty quickly. And he was taken in by the FBI to be polygraphed. He was asked, did you kill Robert1? And do you know who killed Robert1? Dylan answered no to both questions, but deception was indicated both times. And, you know, because we've said it 100 million times, polygraphs just don't really fucking mean anything. They're also inadmissible in court. There is no universal physiological response to deception. So you just cannot have a machine that detects deception. The most a polygraph can do is detect stress. And if someone had been found dead in my house, whether I killed them or knew who killed them or knew nothing at all, I'd be stressed either way, especially if I was being interviewed by the FBI. So I don't really fucking know why they bother.

[Alina Urquhart]

No, I think it's just like a pressure tactic like, you know, they can just say, well, the polygraph says that you're lying and then that could make the person crack. But of course, the police knew that this polygraph result wasn't enough. Lie detectors, as Anna said, aren't even admissible in U.S. courts. They needed some hard evidence to point the finger directly at someone, likely someone who was in the house that night. And the post mortem was going to be key. Now, we will get into all that next week in the second and concluding part of our series on Robert 1. And believe me, you do not want to miss that episode. This episode was very much just a scene setting, taking you into the house that night, showing you the calls, listening to the police interviews. Next week is where we get into the meat of this case and it is a lot because, yeah, it's just going to get graphic straight away. The semen that they found inside Robert Wan's body and who it belonged to is genuinely one of the most shocking and confusing twists I have seen in a case in quite some time. So be sure to come back next week for part two of who Killed Robert 1, where we will also discuss our theories. Goodbye.

[Ash Kelly]

Bye.

[Lindsey Graham]

In the fall of 1620, a battered merchant ship called the Mayflower set sail across the Atlantic. It carried 102 men, women and children, risking it all to start again in the new world. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of American Historytellers. Every week we take you through the moments that shaped America. And in our latest season, we explore the untold story of the pilgrims. One that goes far beyond the familiar tale of the first Thanksgiving. After landing at Cape Cod, the Pilgrims forged an unlikely alliance with the Wampanoag people who helped the Pilgrims survive the land most brutal winter they'd ever known. Laying the foundation for a powerful national myth. But behind that story lies another one of conflict, betrayal and brutal violence against the very people who helped the pilgrim survive. Follow American Historytellers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of American Historytellers the Mayflower early and ad free right now on Wondery.

[Ash Kelly]

It's all a light hearted nightmare on our podcast Morbid. We're your hosts.

[Alina Urquhart]

I'm Alina Urquhart.

[Ash Kelly]

And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime.

[Alina Urquhart]

Part spooky and part comedy.

[Ash Kelly]

The stories we cover are well researched.

[Alina Urquhart]

Of the 880 men who survived the attack, around 400 would eventually find their way to one another and merge into.

[Ash Kelly]

One larger group with a touch of humor.

[Alina Urquhart]

Shout out to her. Shout out to all my therapists out the years. There's been like eight of them. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. That motherf er is not real. And if you're a weirdo like like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Way Back machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast Morbid.

[Ash Kelly]

Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and.

[Alina Urquhart]

Ad free by joining Wondery plus in.

[Ash Kelly]

The Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.