ShortHand: Lucy Letby - What Netflix Left Out

Summary

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RedHanded: ShortHand - Lucy Letby: What Netflix Left Out

Release Date: February 6, 2026
Episode Focus: A critical review and discussion of Netflix's Lucy Letby documentary, examining its narrative choices, omissions, emotional impact, and what deeper complexities were overlooked.

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode centers on the RedHanded hosts' immediate reactions and in-depth analysis of the Netflix Lucy Letby documentary. Their goal: unpack what the documentary accomplished, what it left unexamined, and to foreground skepticism over the conviction of Letby—highlighting issues of evidence, narrative framing, and systemic failures within the NHS and UK justice system.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Emotional Impact of the Documentary

• Hosts agree the Netflix documentary was highly emotive.
  • Footage of Letby’s arrests and personal moments (like saying goodbye to her cat) humanized her and elicited intense reactions.
  • The inclusion of grieving family members, such as baby Zoe’s mother, added emotional weight.
  • Quote (Host 2, 02:14):

    “Out of every sort of Letby thing I have consumed, I would say the Netflix documentary made me feel... It made me feel like most, like in the pit of my stomach. Like, this is so grim.”

2. The Power and Limitation of Storytelling

• The documentary is praised for narrative cohesiveness—bringing all known footage and events (arrests, press conference, New Yorker article) into one accessible film.
• The choice to center the story around a single victim/family is described as "clever" storytelling but risks oversimplifying a complex case.
  • Quote (Host 2, 04:35):

    “Centering around one baby—very clever. Because, you know, it is easier to feel for one family than it is for 17. As story spinners, they did a really good job.”

• But, little new information is presented; much relies on previously public content.

3. Gaps & Misleading Elements in the Documentary

• The hosts criticize the one-part structure as limiting; deeper examination is missing.
• Specifically, the documentary fails to robustly address or contextualize the synthetic insulin evidence—a crucial and controversial aspect of the prosecution:
  • The press conference where leading experts denied the presence of synthetic insulin is glossed over.
  • Quote (Host 1, 06:27):

    “There was confusion, there was a lot of incompetence on that ward. And I don’t think they really hammered that point home that there wasn’t synthetic insulin.”

  • Instead, Netflix perpetuates the idea that insulin was present (“literally the opposite”) rather than addressing genuine medical uncertainty.

The Roster Evidence is Questioned

• Discussion around nurse scheduling (“rota”)—was Letby really the only nurse present for every collapse? The hosts dissect the cherry-picking of cases by Dr. Dewi Evans:
  • Out of dozens of collapses, why did Evans focus only on a select 17 instances? Why were others excluded?
  • Quote (Host 1, 08:16):

    “He just decides after he’s seen who their suspect is, which 17 he was going to pick. There was no explanation ever given for why...”

  • The hosts view this as a bias toward constructing a circumstantial case rather than clarifying what really happened.

Dramatization and Police Investigation Tactics

• Dramatic focus is given to Letby’s personal notetaking, asterisks in her diary, and hospital documents labeled “keep.” The hosts suggest this is mundane or explainable, but becomes suspicious in the narrative.
• Quote (Host 1, 11:00):
  > "I think there was a lot of dramatization… where the police [said], there were asterisks in her diary on the day that babies died. And I was like, because they were significant days."

The Mercy of the NHS Failing—A Systemic View

• Notably left out: national context of poor maternity care in the NHS; many hospitals (not just Chester) have suffered fatal outcomes and scrutiny.
• The hosts emphasize NHS’s institutional incentives to scapegoat an individual over admitting systemic failure:
  • Quote (Host 1, 12:00):

    “You have every incentive to say this, because your hospital was failing."

4. Critique of the Investigation and the Justice System

• The reliance on Dr. Evans as the primary “expert” is deeply questioned. His qualifications and prior controversial opinions are highlighted as making him a poor witness.
  • Quote (Host 1, 16:52):

    “…a panel full of incredibly much more experienced…doctors…said there were no murders here, but this one man was enough to convince Cheshire police?...Incredibly fraudulent, to be perfectly honest.”

• Police tactics during Letby’s interview are ridiculed as Kafkaesque:
  • Asking Letby herself (a nurse) for alternative explanations for baby deaths—an approach the hosts describe as fundamentally unfair.
  • Quote (Host 1, 17:41):

    “…if she doesn’t have an answer, then by default that means she killed them.”

5. Lucrative Legal Failings and Questions About the Trial

• The defense’s failure to call any medical expert is highlighted: not a single defense expert testified for Letby. The hosts see this as a catastrophic deficit, again not explored enough in the Netflix film.
• Quote (Host 1, 19:40):

  “I don’t think she got a fair trial and I don’t think she’s guilty…But I also don’t even think there were any murders.”

6. The Crisis of Transparency and Accountability in UK Justice

• Compared to US legal systems (where trial footage is broadly accessible), the UK is “opaque.” This lack of transparency is seen as aiding miscarriages of justice and insulating legal insiders from accountability.
  • Quote (Host 1, 22:50):

    “We have a very, very, very arrogant system that protects prosecutors, barristers and judges. I think it’s like the old boys club. I don’t think it’s there to protect the people.”

7. Reflections, Mind Changes, and the Pursuit of Truth

• The hosts openly discuss changing their own minds as they acquire new information. They encourage listeners to prioritize truth, not defensiveness.
  • Quote (Host 1, 27:05):

    “However many changes of mind it takes, as long as it’s in the pursuit of truth, it doesn’t matter.”

  • Quote (Host 2, 27:24):

    “It’s okay to change your mind…as long as your pursuit is always the truth.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the emotional power of the documentary:
  Host 2, 02:14: “It made me feel like most, like in the pit of my stomach. Like, this is so grim.”
• On cherry-picking evidence:
  Host 1, 08:16: “He chose 17 with no explanation as to why those 17 were chosen and why, say another nine were disregarded. That’s my problem with it because that to me feels like you are cherry picking the ones that you want.”
• On the trial’s fairness:
  Host 1, 19:40: “I don’t think she got a fair trial and I don’t think she’s guilty. That’s kind of where I stand. But I also don’t even think there were any murders.”
• On the appeal system and transparency:
  Host 1, 23:09: “If this was the US, Lucy Letby would already be on her next appeal…just the fact of her poor defense, she would have another appeal...in this country. That will never happen. Because the justice system protects those who are in power.”
• On digital anonymization and AI in documentaries:
  Host 2, 25:30: “That’s how good AI is getting my friend.”
  (Context: a friend of Letby was digitally anonymized to protect her identity.)
• On the willingness to reassess:
  Host 1, 27:05: “However many changes of mind it takes, as long as it’s in the pursuit of truth, it doesn’t matter.”

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Important Timestamps

• 01:42 — Introduction & Setting: Netflix documentary release, hosts’ first feelings.
• 04:35 — The documentary’s narrative effectiveness and its limits.
• 06:27 — Debating the handling of synthetic insulin evidence.
• 08:16 — The selection and explanation of the “17 babies” at the center of the case.
• 11:00 — Dramatization in portrayal of evidence (diary asterisks, hospital notes).
• 12:00-15:00 — NHS systemic failings, context of national maternity ward crisis.
• 16:52 — Critique of medical expert Dr. Dewi Evans’ influence.
• 17:41 — Police interview approach (on alternative explanations).
• 19:40 — Arguments about the trial’s fairness and the burden of proof.
• 22:50 — UK justice system’s opacity and resistance to transparency.
• 25:30 — Digital anonymization of Letby’s university friend in the documentary.
• 27:05 — Affirming the need to keep an open mind in pursuit of truth.

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Conclusion

The hosts ultimately appreciate that the Netflix documentary has raised public pressure and collated all key material related to Lucy Letby’s case. However, they're frustrated by the documentary's superficial treatment of crucial evidence, dramatization over substance, and the lack of focus on systemic issues within the NHS and justice system.

Both agree the case exemplifies how miscarriages of justice can occur in a system with limited transparency, insufficient defense, and institutional incentives to assign individual blame rather than confront deeper failings.

Final perspective (Host 1, 28:13):

“Always be in the pursuit of truth and you will, you know, not go wrong... that’s just what I happen to think.”

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For listeners seeking in-depth analysis of the Lucy Letby case’s legal, medical, and institutional complexities—beyond what Netflix showed—this episode delivers sharp, skeptical insight, personal honesty, and a compelling call for critical thinking and systemic reform.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host 1]

Hello, hello and welcome to yet another Lucy Letby update from us, yours truly. And that is because yesterday, the day of recording this, 4th February 2026, Netflix did of course drop their brand new Lucy Letby documentary. This is not a sponsored episode. We are just going to be talking about it. We assume you have watched a Netflix documentary otherwise this is going to be pretty strange to just listen to our take on it. Maybe you listen to the update, maybe you skip straight here. But let's talk about our thoughts.

[Podcast Host 2]

I would say I think there are reasons for this that I'll go into, but out of every sort of let be thing I have consumed I would say the Netflix documentary made me feel I emoted the most. It made me feel like most like in like pit of my stomach. Like this is so grim.

[Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

But I do wonder whether I just haven't been across it as much as you. I think the thing that really got me is when they go to arrest her for the second time. And she's just sat there. That is a broken person. Like that is what a mentally ill, bottom of the barrel, depressed, losing touch with reality person looks like. And that I've. I've seen, I've obviously seen like clips of it. I've never seen it. I've never seen the whole thing before. And that I was like, yeah, that is an unwell woman.

[Podcast Host 1]

It was. I also felt very much a lot of things watching this Netflix documentary. I think the scene in particular where she's saying goodbye to her cat, that for some reason made me feel really upset. And I was like, oh, God. And then of course, having the mother of baby Zoe who died in the Countess of Chester Hospital, speaking about her experiences there, that was also incredibly heartbreaking to witness. To watch a mother who lost a child like that, talking about the pain that she went through. So all round, yes, very emotive documentary for sure. And I think when Netflix said they were going to drop this episode, we. We knew for maybe about two weeks before this happened that they were going to do this. And I was excited hear that Netflix were going to do this. I think that we are still waiting obviously to hear what the Criminal Case Review Commission is going to do, whether they are going to kick Lucy Letby's case back into the appeals court. Like that decision hasn't been made yet. And notoriously that's not something they love to do in this country. So I felt like it's good that Netflix are doing this because the more pressure on them, the better. That's my opinion on it. I was surprised to say, watching it though, as much as I felt things, because there was definitely a lot more police interview footage, a lot more body cam footage of Lucy Letby than I had ever seen before. And I had really, like you said, dug into this case quite a lot. And that was interesting to just have more eyes and ears on, like what was actually going on. But I didn't feel like there was that much new that came out of this.

[Podcast Host 2]

No, there wasn't. I thought they spun it in a very good way. They told a very good story. The way they flip it around in the middle was very well done. Centering around one baby, very clever because, you know, it is easier to feel for one family than it is for 17. So as story spinners, they did a really good job with it, I thought. But there isn't anything new, so there couldn't be anything that they put in. I suppose the only video format feature film documentary out there that has, you Know, the suspicion, the initial arrest, the bail, the rearrest, then the New Yorker article, then the press conference with Julie and then going from there. And it hasn't ever been in one place before. That's exactly apart from on our feed.

[Podcast Host 1]

Yeah, no, absolutely. Netflix. A lot of the stuff that had come out previously to this didn't include that very, very, to me, pivotal press conference that was held. And so I think having it all in one place, so it's not like this scattergun sort of take on a very, very big case. I think that's very good. I think what I found a bit challenging about it is it's very unusual for Netflix or anybody really, to be doing a one parter, like a one part true crime documentary. I was like, pleasantly surprised. It was an hour and a half, but then I was also, at the end of it, felt a bit unsatisfied because I thought while they included clips from the press conference and they had a very brief interview with Dr. Lee, I felt like there were still things that they should have dug into more. Like the fact that in the press conference, they absolutely refute the idea of synthetic insulin being in these babies. And I felt like that for a lot of people was the smoking gun.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 1]

You can kind of look at the stats, you can look at the rosters, you can look at all these things. And people were like, you tell people there's synthetic insulin in two babies that shouldn't have been there. Bam. It's murder. And they do include the clip of Dr. Shu Li saying, there were no murders. But I think I would have liked to see them pull out more clips from that, frankly, enormous press conference, particularly the part where they were saying about there was no synthetic insulin. These babies, all babies, particularly preterm babies, have a very, very difficult time managing their blood sugar levels. There was confusion, there was a lot of incompetence on that ward. And I don't think they really hammered that point home that there wasn't synthetic insulin. From a panel of like, absolutely eminent pediatric experts from across the world saying that I think that would have been really, really powerful. And they didn't do that.

[Podcast Host 2]

No, they did the opposite. Yeah, they did. Literally the opposite. They're like, there was synthetic insulin in those babies. Someone had to put it there. The end.

[Podcast Host 1]

They said that and then they didn't.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yes, they didn't do the.

[Podcast Host 1]

Which for a lot of people, you hear that and then it doesn't matter what else you hear because that is such a, like, bam.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah. I did think, though, when Mark McDonald when he's talking about the rota. And I know we said in the update that it was kind of just made to look more damning than it was. I actually think I believe that anymore. Like she was there every single time. It wasn't made to look like she was. And Mark McDonald in the documentary said, well, you know, she was more experienced, she'd done more courses, so it would be odd if she wasn't there with the sickest babies. Okay, fine, she was there every time. That is irrefutable and it's circumstantial, I take that, but she was.

[Podcast Host 1]

I don't take the point that she was there every time because in the update this is what we spoke about. I think they explained this incredibly poorly again in the documentary because my point is they honed down on 17 babies, some of whom do who died, some of whom collapsed, right? The problem was when that fucking Dr. Dewey Evans got the list from the doctors of total number of collapses and total number of deaths, there was more like 26. There was way more than they end up picking. And he just decides after he's seen who their suspect is, which 17 he was going to pick. There was no explanation ever given for why, if you had say 20, and I can't remember off the top of my head exactly because I haven't got it my notes, but say 26 odd collapses and deaths of babies, there was no explanation from Dr. Evans as to why he picked 17 out of those 26. Why could he explain some of those 26 when those babies died in the exact same circumstances, but he couldn't explain 17. That's my problem. Out of 26, if you picked any random 17 and drew up a roster, you could pick any nurse who were there for all 17, if you see what I mean. If There was only 17 and Lucy was there for all of them, that is powerful circumstantial evidence and I wouldn't refute that. But there wasn't only 17, there was more. He chose 17 with no explanation as to why those 17 were chosen and why, say another nine were disregarded. That was my problem with it because that to me feels like you are cherry picking the ones that you want. Why are you choosing those? And he never gave an explanation as to why. And that was one of the main points that Dr. Shu Li makes is what is the difference between this baby, who was whose death or collapse was disregarded and this baby's death or collapse that was included in that list. And that's the problem for Me with that information. But they explained it so poorly in the documentary.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah. I mean, so poorly I'd forgotten I was watching it.

[Podcast Host 1]

And I was like, why are you saying it like this? Why are you not explaining it like that to me? Again, felt really infuriating because the way in which the cases were picked and the synthetic insulin, for me, were the two things that turned my opinion on this. Right. And both of those were explained very, very poorly in that documentary.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah. And I can understand why they did it. It's more dramatic.

[Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

I would say, basically, I've gone from thinking she didn't do it to thinking, I'm not. I don't know. I don't know why you would keep a file of notes in your house labeled keep.

[Podcast Host 1]

I don't know. I think there were weird things, but again, I feel like there was a lot of dramatization around some of that, where the police were, like, there were asterisks in her diary on the day that babies died. And I was like, because they were significant days. Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

No, that. That I can. But taking hospital documentation home to your house and keeping it in a folder labeled keep.

[Podcast Host 1]

Again, don't.

[Podcast Host 2]

Like.

[Podcast Host 1]

Look, I would say I still. Because. Not just because of the Lucy Letby case, but because this same evidence, this same, like, roadmap of evidence has been used to convict other nurses in other countries in, like, staggeringly the same way. And the fact that in those countries, because appeals are easier to do, and I don't mean, like, the bar is lower, I mean, like, you can literally get an appeal, and they had actual experts called in their defense, which Lucy Letby did not have, and they have been proven to be not guilty. I just feel like I don't think she's guilty. I don't think she did this. I also think another thing that they don't talk about in this documentary, which, again, feels like a real missed point, is since all this happened, the NHS maternity wards around the country have been under so much scrutiny for how terrible they are. Like, that's just the facts of the matter. Like, there have been multiple maternity wards that have been, like, deemed to be completely not fit for purpose in terms of maternal care, in terms of baby care. Babies are dying, mothers are dying. Very, very poor outcomes. And I feel like in this documentary, it's kind of repeated this idea of, like, but why would we say this? Why would we say that Lucy Letby was a killer? We have no reason to say this. And I'm like, you have every incentive to say this because your Hospital was failing. Your hospital was failing at doing its job. You were letting mothers and babies suffer like even the mother of the baby who died had to accept after Dr. Shu Li said in the press conference that mother should have been given antibiotics and she wasn't, or she was given them far too late. This is not an isolated hospital in which this was happening. This is happening everywhere. They had a particular spike of this problem going on. And the consultants, as far as I feel like, and I say the opposite in the very first episode we did, they're covering their asses because the nurses there were saying they were never there, they were never on call. We were left with babies that we were not adequately prepared or trained to look after. And Dr. Shu Li and the panel of doctors who, you know, chaired that panel, went through every single case and found, and this is the really powerful thing to me, there were no murders. In his opinion, and in the opinion of all of these doctors, every single one of those babies died as a result of poor treatment, negligence, or just because that baby wasn't going to survive anyway. And I think for me, it's not. I still can't even get to the point where I'm like, did Lucy let me do it or not? Because I can't even get past the initial hurdle of were there even crimes or not other than gross negligence on the part of the hospital. And they sort of just say at the end, the Countess of Chester Hospital is now being investigated for, like, corporate manslaughter. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they were doing a fucking piss poor job. And I think that it was easier for them to say, not, we have a gross incompetency problem. We have one person who is sabotaging our efforts, one nefarious person, and we've got rid of her now and everything's fine. And they say after Lucy Letby left, we didn't have any more desks because they got downgraded and they got such sick babies taken away.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah.

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[Podcast Host 1]

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[Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

Every single time.

[Podcast Host 1]

Of course they're going to say that. And look, they dealt with the evidence they were given because they went and sought out the evidence they wanted because they went to Dr. Dewey Lewis. One man, one man, and got him to look at it. Within 10 minutes of looking at those files, he was like, there's been foul play here.

[Podcast Host 2]

Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah.

[Podcast Host 1]

When there is a panel full of incredibly much more experienced, much higher qualified doctors who were sat in that room, who did the panel who said there were no murders here, but this one man was enough to convince Cheshire police that there has been foul Play here. This man is very, very questionable. And I'm glad they say in the documentary that a senior judge also questioned his reliability and his credibility. This doesn't have anything maybe to do with his credibility, but this is also a man who at one point in his life advocated for the decriminalization of sex between minors and adults. So let's just, you know, put that out there. Everyone, they're everywhere, everyone's a paedophile. I think he enjoyed the attention. He wanted to be a part of a case like this. I find his evidence and his takes on this incredibly fraudulent, to be perfectly honest. And I thought when you watch the documentary and there's police interview footage of detectives talking to Lucy Lepe and one point where I literally laughed out loud where the detective says, when they took her into interview, they said, we wanted to give her the opportunity to provide us with an alternative explanation for why these babies died. And I was like, are you serious? Are you fucking serious? Apparently all of the doctors on that maternity ward, all the consultants on that maternity ward and your fucking medical expert, singular, say they don't know. Dr. Dewey Evans says, I don't know why these babies died and that's why it's suspicious. But you're gonna pull her in and be like, what's an alternative explanation for why these babies died if you didn't kill them? To a nurse, like, that is the most Kafka esque thing I've ever heard. Because you're basically saying if you can't provide an alternative explanation, then you killed them. Yeah. And I'm like, what sort of a ridiculous line of questioning is that? Like, you should be asking that question to multiple medical experts, not to the person you're accusing. Because if she doesn't have an answer, then by default that means she killed them.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host 1]

Like, what a bizarre thing to say. Like, I just did not understand that. And then they also said the bit about even Lucy let me accepted there was synthetic insulin in two of the baby's systems. Because that's what you've told her. Because that's what you told her. That is a complete irrelevant point to me. Because to me, Dr. Shui Lee and those other doctors said that wasn't the case. And that point shouldn't have even been included. We shouldn't even be talking about that anymore. And I also think that not enough felt like it was made of how shocking a defence Lucy Letby got. The fact that not one expert, not one medical expert was called in her defence.

[Podcast Host 2]

They couldn't because the defence wouldn't speak to them. It said at the end they were like, Lucy Letby's defense refused to.

[Podcast Host 1]

But they could have made the point that. I don't know why Mark McDonald didn't say it. I don't know why people didn't make the point. They're in court.

[Podcast Host 2]

Maybe it's like a legal thing that they had to be there to defend themselves, like right of refusal.

[Podcast Host 1]

Maybe. But it's absolutely diabolical to me. It just feels completely like, look, the first question for me is, were there murders or not? I can't even get past that point. If people can get past that point, I don't often like to say, well, this person's guilty. They just. But they didn't get a fair trial and therefore, you know, we need to look at this. I don't think she got a fair trial and I don't think she's guilty. That's kind of where I stand. But I also don't even think there were any murders. I think that the hospital doesn't want to be liable to all of those families whose babies died as a result of negligence, because that is what Dr. Shui and all of these other doctors are saying. And, you know, people can be like, who is he to comment on the nhs? Who gives a fuck if it's the NHS or if it's a private hospital? He is a doctor. Those people are doctors. On that board was also the head, the chief head of pediatrics in this country. She sided with Dr. Shu Li. This wasn't some, like, external, like outside of the UK coming in to point fingers at us. There were lots of British people on that panel as well, including the head of Royal Pediatrics in this country. So I don't know, it just felt like I can't even get past step one with this case.

[Podcast Host 2]

I think that's actually quite a good way of putting it. It's like, before you have a murderer, you have to have a murder.

[Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

And if you, if you don't, if.

[Podcast Host 1]

You can't even prove that.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 1]

Then what business do you have putting a woman in prison for the rest of her fucking life? This isn't even one of those cases that, like, someone was definitely murdered, but there was a poor, unfair trial that has led to a dangerous conviction and therefore we need to re look at whether she is guilty or not. And even if you think she is guilty, you need to have due process in this country and the trial wasn't fair and therefore she should be released. I'm not Even having that conversation, I'm like, who was murdered? These babies died. And it is horrific that that happened, but to me, the blame lays somewhere else. And it is still going on in other hospitals.

[Podcast Host 2]

Totally. I also laughed out loud, I can't remember which one, but one of the elderly men that's in this, where he was like, well, it was adjudicated by three judges.

[Podcast Host 1]

Jury found her guilty, therefore it was Dr. Evans.

[Podcast Host 2]

Oh, right, yeah. And I was like, are you all right? No, that's a ridiculous thing to say.

[Podcast Host 1]

No, it is a ridiculous thing to say. And I'll be honest, like, watching this whole thing, I'm glad it happened. I hope this puts pressure on the review board. And I think she has been absolutely railroaded by the state and the prosecution. And I think that already in this country, when it comes to our judicial system, there is such a lack of transparency. There is such a lack of transparency. We do a lot of American cases and, like, we're recording one later today of Brendan Banfield. I sat yesterday and literally watched hours and hours and hours of court footage. Everything is out there. You can make arguments for whether that is appropriate and whether that is a good thing or not, but I think we are living in the total flip side where everything is so untransparent that I think that is just not a good thing at all. And I think that I don't know what's going to happen here. We have a very, very, very arrogant system that protects prosecutors, barristers and judges. I think it's like the old boys club. I don't think it's there to.

[Podcast Host 2]

I think that's a fact. I don't even think that's an opinion.

[Podcast Host 1]

It's not there to protect the people. And that's why. Why else would you need such. Is it opa? What's the opposite of transparency?

[Podcast Host 2]

Opaqueness.

[Podcast Host 1]

Opaqueness. Why would you need it to be so opaque? Why would you need it to be so.

[Podcast Host 2]

Because they're all fucking children, that's why. That's why we're not allowed to look.

[Podcast Host 1]

No, and I just think that this, this whole, like, very closed off system we have in the uk, where nobody can know anything, or our appeal system is an absolute nightmare. Like, if this was the us, Lucy Letby would already be on her next appeal because just the fact of her poor defense, she would have another appeal in this country. That will never happen. Because the justice system protects those who are in power. It does not. It's not there to protect people. And this is why I think some people might use this case to even point to why we should get rid of jury trials. I. If anything, this to me points to the opposite. Oh, why the fuck would we want.

[Podcast Host 2]

I have many opinions about jury trials. None of them have even come across my brain hole while thinking about this one. The jury doesn't come into it at all.

[Podcast Host 1]

The jury made the decision they made based on the medical evidence that they were presented with. They did nothing wrong. Lucy Lepy's defense and the police, in my opinion, they're the ones to blame. And the prosecution obviously as well, because what business did the CPS have looking at the evidence that the police had collected and not say, you need more medical experts to sign off on this instead, yeah, let's go to fucking trial with this. So, no, I think that if anything, there needs to be more transparency, there needs to be more accountability. And I don't think that the state should be given any more power to be judge, jury and fucking executioner. Because look at what they've done. Even when they had a jury, they tricked them. I just feel very heartbroken for all of the families and I think they deserve to know the truth about what happened to their children. And as much as it might make them feel vindicated or slightly, not that it's ever going to make you feel better, why would it make you feel better that your baby got murdered rather than died of negligence, but it might make them feel like some justice was done, that Lucy Letby is in prison. But if that's not real justice, then that is false. They should know the truth about what happened.

[Talkspace Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 1]

And I have every sympathy for them. This isn't like, let's stir all this up to hurt those people. But Lucy Letby, in my opinion, doesn't deserve to spend the rest of her life in prison. I think this is a gross miscarriage of justice. And no, I didn't learn loads from the documentary, but I'm not.

[Podcast Host 2]

No, but you flipped me again. So, yeah, free Lucy Letby. But one thing we have not discussed. Can I be digitally anonymized? So when Lucy Letby's mate that she went to uni with, they digitally anomalised her face. So I wasn't like, I wasn't.

[Podcast Host 1]

I miss that brev.

[Podcast Host 2]

It is. That's why she looks so good. So I wasn't. I was like watching it with one eye because I was crocheting an axolotl. Don't ask. And then I looked and look, I was like, God, that light's amazing.

[Podcast Host 1]

She looks great.

[Podcast Host 2]

And looked again and there's like a thing in the top right hand corner. It's like, digitally anonymized. I want to be digitally anonymized. She looked amazing.

[Podcast Host 1]

Oh, I didn't. I'm completely.

[Podcast Host 2]

That's how good AI is getting my friend.

[Podcast Host 1]

There you go. I must have been typing my notes and looking at my laptop instead of looking at her, because. No, that. That makes sense.

[Podcast Host 2]

You very easily could have missed it. But it's her mate from uni.

[Podcast Host 1]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

And, yeah, what if. A very sensible decision.

[Podcast Host 1]

Oh, absolutely. Because I was watching it and I was like, this is incredibly brave of you to be going out there with your face to defending her. I mean, I know I'm doing that, but it's different when you're her friend.

[Podcast Host 2]

Oh, no. And when people can, you know, hound you in the street for writing her letters in pr. Absolutely. It's unsafe for her to, you know, have her face out there. And I'm not asking for a before and after, but, like, it was so good. Wow.

[Podcast Host 1]

Okay. I missed that entirely. That's very interesting. That makes a lot more sense now because I was quite shocked by her appearance in it. I also thought, like, I know Mark McDonald's in it and I know Dr. Shue Lee's in it, but it felt very much like for a lot of it, there's all these other people talking like detectives and stuff like that, and Dr. Fucking Evans, whatever credit you want to give him. And then it's just like. And then here on Lucy's side is just her mate from uni. Anyway, anyway, look, I think. I think I've made my point.

[Podcast Host 2]

I think you have, and you've changed my mind once more.

[Podcast Host 1]

Look, I think somebody commented on our update, which was something that really stood, like, stuck with me. And I'm sorry, I can't remember who it was that said this. If it was you, please comment again. And she said, however many changes of mind it takes, as long as it's in the pursuit of truth, it doesn't matter. And I was like, I agree, that's true.

[Podcast Host 2]

It's okay to change your mind. As we say on this show very.

[Podcast Host 1]

Often, as long as your pursuit is always the truth, then I think that's fair enough.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 1]

And I'll be honest, when I make a mistake the first time we did the episode.

[Podcast Host 2]

That's true.

[Podcast Host 1]

Yeah. I look back on that and I'm not happy with that. That's not right. That's why we wanted to correct it in the update that we did, which is a very long episode that we released that hopefully you guys just listened to. And after this documentary. I stand by that. I stand by that. I think the documentary did a good job pulling everything together, but did a very poor job in explaining and digging into the nuances of the things that we have discussed in the update.

[Podcast Host 2]

But are you not entertained?

[Podcast Host 1]

Exactly. So that's it guys. That is our update on the Lucy Letby documentary released by Netflix. I don't know. Yeah, you can make up your own minds. That's just what I happen to think.

[Podcast Host 2]

In the pursuit of truth.

[Podcast Host 1]

Absolutely. Always be in the pursuit of truth and you will, you know, not go wrong. So that's it. Hopefully you enjoyed this little bonus extra tidbit and we'll see you next week or like now probably for another thing that we're doing. Goodbye.

[Talkspace Advertiser]

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