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- [00:01]
Host 1
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Host 2
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- [00:58]
Host 1
Hello.
- [00:59]
Host 2
Hello.
- [00:59]
Host 1
Welcome to Shorthand, where we're gonna get crafty.
- [01:03]
Host 2
You like art forgers?
- [01:04]
Host 1
I do like an art forger, I
- [01:06]
Host 2
think, I'm just not an arter. Actually, I did buy some art the other day.
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Host 1
Oh, did you?
- [01:09]
Host 2
I did, yeah.
- [01:10]
Host 1
Do tell.
- [01:11]
Host 2
I bought. They're called Hate Plates and it's a little ceramic plate that's been framed and it says, babes, it's not a hidden gem. It's Hackney.
- [01:20]
Host 1
Brilliant. No, I am. I'm here for a good arty time. But I would also be the first to say. Not the first to say. Actually, I would be one of many to say that the art world can be very wanky. In fact, some people would say that the world of high value art is actually a con. We talked about this at length in our episode where we were talking about how MBS Grand Prince of Saudi Arabia purchased, or did he purchase, that very famous painting, Salvador Mundi? Go listen to that. For all of our rants on, like, art being a con or, you know, the lack of democratisation that exists within that space. But let's talk about how wanky it is today, because it can, of course, be an excuse for people with too much money to buy the illusion of good taste and waste money that they can't spend quickly enough. Others might say the whole system is just an elaborate money laundering scheme. Now, obviously we wouldn't say that, but what makes a Mark Rothko worth several millions of dollars? Whereas if any of us mere mortals was to simply fill a canvas with a few blocks of colour, it would be worth nothing.
- [02:24]
Host 2
Speak for yourself.
- [02:26]
Host 1
What's the difference? Is it really the craft, the time and the sheer inspiration put into it, or is it the name and status it brings with it?
- [02:35]
Host 2
We were talking about this the other night. A friend of mine is doing a master's in fine art. Another friend of Mine is trying to write a TV pilot, and we're sort of talking about, like, the forms in which stories are told. And I was just like, stories are stories. It's the same. Doesn't matter what, like, format it is put into it. They are at the heart. That's what you're doing. Because I find it very tiresome when someone tries to convince me that they're the only person who has ever had this thought, or like, their work is going to be unique in some sort of way because it is statistically impossible. You're wasting your time. Just make something good. Like, it doesn't. Why uniqueness is prized above all else, I've never really understood, but I just was just like, well, you know, there's no new ideas. And Adam, my friend who's doing a master's, just started hysterically laughing. And I was like, what? He was like, I'm doing a fine art master's. I know.
- [03:28]
Host 1
No, absolutely. I think, like I said, we talk about it in that shorthand a lot, but it's this idea of. I think it can be two things, right? I am a fan of art. Sounds very juvenile to even say that, but you know what I mean. And I think it can absolutely invoke feelings in you, just like a good story can. It can be nostalgic. It can be evoking of some sort of emotion which is deeply human and that's why we do it. Or it can be storytelling. Any of those things. But it can also be true that the art world is full of fucking liars and cons and people who are like, I deem this worthy, so therefore it's worth it.
- [04:03]
Host 2
Exactly.
- [04:04]
Host 1
Which I despise. But anyway, this today is a story of a bohemian German couple who decided that it was agreeing with us. Probably the latter, the idea that it's all about name and status and those who get to decide who has that. So together they sold countless works, expertly crafted, but under false pretenses. The result, they made tens of millions of dollars and fooled some of the greatest experts in the art world. Some would say Wolfgang Bella Tracci is nothing but a simple grafter. Some would say he's the greatest living artist. This is the shorthand and you can decide.
- [04:49]
Host 2
Do you remember that band? Who, the 90s, or maybe the 2000s. They were both music industry people, and they were like, this is how you make a number one. And they did it. And then they wrote a book about it.
- [05:00]
Host 1
I don't remember, but I get it.
- [05:02]
Host 2
And then they did it again. And Then they burned loads of cash and, like, made a video. It must have been the 90s because it was before, like pre Internet, I think. And I saw an interview with one of them where they were like, why did you. Because why did you decide to, like, actually burn cash, like thousands and thousands of pounds? And he was like, we were trying to make a point about how, like, money in the music industry is so hollow and meaningless. But to be honest, it's very difficult to explain to my children why I did that.
- [05:28]
Host 1
Yeah, there's a lot of friction around that Christmas table.
- [05:33]
Host 2
Yes. Yeah. Anyway, before we get into the life of Wolfgang Bella Trachy, we need to make something clear. This is the story of a serial con man and a lifelong fraudster. So everything we know about his life has to be taken with a pinch of salt. What we know for sure is that Wolfgang Belichi was born Wolfgang Fisher on 4 February 1951 in Hoxter, Germany. Wolfgang's father, by day was a house painter and church restorer, but by night, Visina hit the canvas. He copied works by Rembrandt and Picasso and then sold them for a tiny profit.
- [06:17]
Host 1
Whereas Wolfgang's father was a master, Wolfgang himself has been described as somewhat of a prodigy, almost mostly by himself. To be fair, growing up around his father's work, Wolfgang studied forgery and turned it into an art form all of its own. The story goes that by 14 years old he was churning out Picassos daily, which were of such a high quality that his father decided to actually hang up his brush. Reportedly, he'd been surpassed so thoroughly by his son that his own work seemed pointless now by comparison. A few years later, Wolfgang was kicked out of secondary school and although he did briefly attend an art school in Aachen, wasn't exactly his vibe. Instead, by the 70s, Wolfgang, who was by this point in his early 20s, spent his time traveling around Europe and North Africa. He lived in artistic communities, focused on his skills as a painter and took a fuckload of drugs.
- [07:13]
Host 2
Inevitably, his hippie, bohemian, drifter lifestyle led him to Amsterdam, where he lived on a houseboat and briefly ran a disco part time. DJs unite. However, while the world of drugs, stitchery, dos and dicking about was enjoyable, it still left Wolfgang with an itch that needed to be scratched. The itch of the hustle comes for us all. Wolfgang got back to the forgery game and immediately showed the kind of well thought out nuance that would go on to have some people calling him the greatest art forger in history. Having spent time in The Dutch art scene. Wolfgang realised that certain specific features of antique landscape paintings sold better than others. Most notably paintings featuring ice skaters. People love that shit. To be fair, what's the only thing I watch at the Winter Olympics fair?
- [08:11]
Host 1
So Wolfgang spent some time wandering around local antique markets looking for Dutch winter landscape paintings that didn't contain ice skaters. He would buy them, take them home and use his considerable artistic talent to add in a lake and a few skaters. Look, he's doing his market research, he's got the skills to back it up. And he's like, I'm work smart, not fucking hard. I'm paint the whole bloody scene, just paint what I need, the money maker, the money shot. Like, I respect the hustle, honestly. And then, so, yes, once he's done these paintings, he would take them back to the very same antiques markets and sell them on for a considerable profit. Alongside this pretty ingenious scheme, Wolfgang also briefly ran a gallery with an estate agent from Dusseldorf. Keen and Fisher Fine Arts GmbH ran for a few years, but collapsed in spectacular fashion. Keen, Wolfgang's business partner, accused Wolfgang of stealing paintings from within his own home.
- [09:11]
Host 2
You knew what he was.
- [09:13]
Host 1
This is what I mean. Wolfgang, of course, denied any wrongdoing and has continued to do so to this day. But the damage was done and the pair never reconciled.
- [09:23]
Host 2
With the gallery business behind him, Wolfgang Fisher decided to fuck off the mainstream art world entirely and fully dedicated himself to the dark art forgery. This time, Wolfgang moved away from Dutch landscapes and into the world of Dadaism and Cubism. In other words, the complicated, murky world of abstract, pre war modern art. He found that forging the works of Max Ernst, Heinrich Campendonck and Ferdinand Ledger was substantially easier than forging the works of the Dutch masters.
- [09:59]
Host 1
Yeah, again, work smart, not hard. And look, I think he is just a very calculated person who happens to be very talented at art. And instead of being like, I could work really hard, like you said, having this desire to create something unique, something of myself that speaks to my soul, my essence, and like, you know, spend my life as a poor starving artist who may one day possibly be admired after I'm long dead, he's like, fuck that shit. What do people want to pay for? And whose art can I steal? Because I can just sell it now and have money. And I honestly, I'm not mad.
- [10:34]
Host 2
No, me either.
- [10:35]
Host 1
I'm not mad.
- [10:36]
Host 2
And also, not only were the concepts in modern art more vague techniques a lot more liberal, and that made the paints, the pigments and the canvases that the artists use a lot easier to forge.
- [10:55]
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- [11:04]
Host 2
Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?
- [11:08]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
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- [11:14]
Host 2
Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.
- [11:16]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
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- [11:19]
Host 2
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- [11:22]
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- [11:55]
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- [12:04]
Host 2
Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?
- [12:08]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
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- [12:15]
Host 2
Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.
- [12:16]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
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- [12:20]
Host 2
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- [12:23]
Host 1
When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery. So you can keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. On top of this, as we discussed in our episode on the Monuments Men, Nazi Germany left the works of famous modern and often Jewish artists scattered to the wind. Undiscovered works by some of the great early 20th century artists were constantly being unearthed around the time Wolfgang got into the forgery game. People were used to it. A wealthy industrialist or socialite died, Their estate came up for auction, and bang, there were a bunch of paintings that were long considered destroyed turning up out of the blue. So all Wolfgang had to do was slip one of his into those auctions and make a tidy profit. I'm not seeing any problems right now.
- [13:38]
Host 2
Like me either.
- [13:39]
Host 1
I love this.
- [13:40]
Host 2
And also like, if someone's dying and like one of the great masters is showing up, it's because they were a Nazi. Like I really am not seeing the holes here. Wolfgang Fisher spent the next decade honing his craft and taking his master forgeries to the next level. He would spend months, even years studying an artist as if he were an apprentice learning from his master. He would study their brushstrokes, their equipment and the pigments they mixed. Wolfgang would even study their personal lives and their motivations. He would try to understand not just what they created, but why they created it.
- [14:20]
Host 1
It's so funny because he is putting in so much effort to do this and to do it right. So it's not like he's not trying hard or that he lacks the skill or like substance to do it. He's just like, I'm just gonna white label it. I'll just white label Picasso. I'll just do it myself and then
- [14:34]
Host 2
sell it because guess what's gonna make more money? Yeah. So you could say he was a method actor turned pater, the Daniel Day Lewis of forgery. But I guarantee anyone who labels themselves as a method actor would be horrified at that comparison. Because if you think they don't consider themselves true artists, you are wrong.
- [14:54]
Host 1
Which is why I think the comparison is even funnier.
- [14:56]
Host 2
Yes, exactly. It was only when Wolfgang thought he totally understood the artistic practice that he would trawl through the paperwork of said artists, like old gallery listings and records. He often looked for lesser known works by famous artists that had been painted, noted down as part of a collection and then lost. He would find the description of that painting and do it again.
- [15:23]
Host 1
And it worked. By the early 90s, Wolfgang Fischer was probably the most successful art fraudster in history. He sold five of his works to a well respected German art scholar who was compiling a catalogue of various artists work. Fisher had passed them off as original works by Heinrich Kampendonk. This scholar had dedicated a good chunk of his life to the study of Campendonck's work. And even he believed that the paintings were real. Wolfgang Fisher said that he even sold a forged painting by an artist named Johannes Molsan to Molsan's own widow. That's how impeccable his forgeries were.
- [16:02]
Host 2
I also think that in a world where we're so desperate to decide whether we can separate art from artist, does it really fucking matter?
- [16:10]
Host 1
No.
- [16:12]
Host 2
Anyway, by this stage in the game, early 90s, Wolfgang Fisher was already the forgery goat. But then in 1992, he met someone who would take everything to the next level. Helene Beltracki was working on a film when they first met, and at first she thought that Wolfgang was a bit weird. No one who is the greatest at anything of all time is normal.
- [16:35]
Host 1
Aha.
- [16:37]
Host 2
Wolfgang talked incessantly about pirate documentaries and taking drugs and probably ripped Lucozade bongs in the park. But everyone loves a bad boy, and pretty soon the pair were an item. By 1993, they were married, Wolfgang took Killin's last name and they started having a brood of children.
- [16:58]
Host 1
Which just goes to show, guys like you can be super weird, but as long as you're competent at something, there's a woman out there who'll be like, yeah, man, that's the guy for me.
- [17:08]
Host 2
And kids were not all they were cooking up.
- [17:11]
Host 1
Wolfgang had been on a bit of a break from the whole forgery world when he and Helene first met. But it wasn't long before he wanted to get back in, and this time he had a wife by his side. Now, we should point out that in a lot of sources we have read, to put together this shorthand, people like to imagine that Helene was kind of being just like, whisked along.
- [17:33]
Host 2
How boring.
- [17:34]
Host 1
Yeah, we call bullshit. From what we can see, Helene was a force of nature all by herself and was more than capable of committing art fraud without much persuasion. In fact, the first scam they committed together was instigated by Helene, who phoned up the esteemed Lempert's auction house in Berlin and said that she had a work by the French artist Georges Valme. Velmeer was the perfect artist to forge
- [18:01]
Host 2
loads of ice skaters.
- [18:02]
Host 1
He was well known enough for his work to be worth a considerable amount of money, but not so well known that everyone knew where every single one of his works was. On top of this, the French multidisciplinary genius was well known for creating several practice versions of his works before he created his final one. The result was that a work by Valmier turning up on the market unexpectedly didn't really raise that many suspicions.
- [18:28]
Host 2
Lampert sent an expert to the Beltracchi's house. The expert gave it an appraisal and then paid them 20,000 Deutsche marks for it, which is about 15 grand in today's money. The painting sold a few years later at a New York auction house for well over a million dollars. Wow. A substantial step up in profit margins for Wolfgang Belchi all down to his new wife. You might be wondering what exactly she brought to the situation that inflated the price quite so drastically. The answer is provenance. Provenance is the provable history of a piece of art, its paper trail and story. In the art world, provenance can often add as much value to a piece as the work itself. The more concrete the paperwork and the more unique the story, the more valuable the piece becomes.
- [19:27]
Host 1
It's a dream team.
- [19:29]
Host 2
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [19:30]
Host 1
As we said earlier, Nazi Germany left early 20th century works littered across Europe and South America. It was not uncommon to find a whole hoard of works turn up at an estate sale or for a priceless piece to come out of the woodwork. Having spent half a century in a church back room or Nazi salt mine, it was in this world that Helene Baltracci flourished. Together, Helene and Wolfgang concocted the ultimate story, provenance so perfect that nobody could resist it, centred on Helene's grandfather, a wealthy industrialist called Werner Jaegers. They told prospective buyers that Jaegers had been a close friend, friend of Alfred Flecktheim, a German Jewish art collector in the 1920s. The story went that when Flecktime had gone into exile to escape the Nazi party, he had sold a substantial amount of his art collection to Helene's rich granddad.
- [20:29]
Host 2
In reality, Helene's grandfather was just a teenager in the 30s and certainly would have been far too young to be friends with such a famous German Jewish art collector. And worse than that, he was actually a member of the Nazi party. He'd served in the German army during the war, so the odds of a substantially older Jewish acquaintance trusting him with his life's work small. However, Wolfgang and Helene went to substantial lengths to add weight to the story. The pair would scour antique markets to find period correct frames. They created forged labels for the Flecktime collection and used tea and coffee staining to age them even more boldly. They created a paper trail of real photographs which they claimed depicted Helene's grandmother at an art gallery, posing with several of the works. What had actually happened is Wolfgang had gone out and found a period correct camera, filled it with period correct film, and then photographed Helene in period correct clothing, posing in front of his forgeries. And if that's not art, I don't know what is exactly.
- [21:35]
Host 1
The theatre of all of this absolutely is the art. It's so good.
- [21:41]
Host 2
Give me that over a fucking oil painting any day. Oh, my God.
- [21:44]
Host 1
Well, you get this and the oil painting. No, take it back.
- [21:53]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
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- [22:02]
Host 2
Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?
- [22:06]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual Together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.
- [22:13]
Host 2
Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.
- [22:14]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
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- [22:18]
Host 2
Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.
- [22:21]
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- [22:54]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.
- [23:03]
Host 2
Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?
- [23:07]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.
- [23:14]
Host 2
Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.
- [23:15]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
Anyways, get a quote@libertymutual.com or with your local agent.
- [23:19]
Host 2
Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.
- [23:22]
Grainger/Safeway Advertiser
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- [23:55]
Host 1
The Beltracchis used this bruise for almost two decades, and it's still not entirely clear exactly how many forged pieces were sold and how many artists were mimicked.
- [24:07]
Host 2
I wonder why. I wonder why nobody has dug into that too significantly.
- [24:12]
Host 1
You might be thinking that surely at some point the pair would get caught out.
- [24:16]
Host 2
And they did.
- [24:17]
Host 1
Multiple times. In fact, for one, Ralph Gentz, an expert from the Alfred Fleckhein Gallery, noted that a label on one of the paintings was clearly forged.
- [24:28]
Host 2
You would hope that a gallery owner would notice tea stained paper when they saw it.
- [24:33]
Host 1
You would hope so. You would hope so. And he basically says that this label doesn't look like a real label.
- [24:40]
Host 2
Got to burn the edges with a match. That's the trick.
- [24:42]
Host 1
Yeah, is like these do not look like the labels that Flecktheim use in his collection. Other people also pointed out how Helene's grandfather was, as we said, far too young and far too much of a Nazi to be mates with Alfred Flecktime. So why was the scam able to continue for so long?
- [25:01]
Host 2
Lots of reasons, but primarily people really wanted it to be true. They really wanted the paintings to be real. Because if they were real, that meant they were worth an obscene amount of money.
- [25:11]
Host 1
And everyone's getting rich off this.
- [25:14]
Host 2
And a lot of the art world's middlemen had a lot to gain. The only one who's losing is the mug who buys it and they don't care about them. So issues and inconsistencies were just swept under the carpet. And at that time in the art world, loads of people weren't doing research on where these paintings had come from because the history was dark and unpleasant and Nazi filled. Yeah.
- [25:37]
Host 1
No one wanted to admit that they had a Heinrich Campendonk lying around because their granny was shagging Himmler. So it wasn't that unusual when works went up for auction with backstories that had clearly been altered to seem more favourable to the collector. As a result, the Beltraki slightly dubious backstory of Helene's grandfather saving the collection of a famous German Jew didn't really stand out. In fact, it was probably a lot more plausible than some of the others that were going around at the time. Even if someone did question the label or a picture frame, people just assumed it was because the story was fake, not because the art was.
- [26:16]
Host 2
Until a buyer in Munich decided to go above and beyond. While appraising a work by Johannes Molsson, which they were planning on buying from a local gallery, they decided to get it chemically tested.
- [26:28]
Host 1
Uh oh.
- [26:29]
Host 2
The test revealed that the white in the painting had been created using a titanium based pigment which was not available during Molsan's lifetime. And that kind of proof nobody could turn a blind eye to. Previously, there was a real possibility in the eyes of the buyer that these works, even with their dubious histories, could be real. But scientific evidence proving it had to be fake was a big deal.
- [26:56]
Host 1
Yeah. However, while the chemical testing did prove that The Mulsanne was a forgery. It was very difficult to pin it to the Beltracchis. For a start, they could claim that they too had been duped. And even if that failed, some of the forgery had happened so long before that the statute of limitations was already starting to run out. Despite this, the pair knew they might be best to keep their heads down. So they packed up a camper van with all five of their kids and went to live in the seaside town of Markalen. There they set up a small studio, threw big hippie parties and continued to sell the occasional forgery to pay the bills.
- [27:33]
Host 2
It wasn't until 2008, when a second buyer tested the authenticity of a Heinrich Campendonk painting, that the shit really hit the fan. Once again. The pigment testing came back as titanium white, which had probably come from the same tube as the forged Johannes Molssand. This suspicious pigment led to further tests which proved inconsistencies in the labels and the frames. It was found that the labels had been stained with coffee to create the illusion of aging. And this information was sent to the art fraud division of the Parisian police, who themselves had already heard rumours of suspicious art coming out of Germany. Finally, someone filed a criminal complaint about another fake painting and named Helene's sister Jeanette as the person who had put it up for auction. Slowly, the Beltracchis became the focus of potentially the largest art fraud scandal in history.
- [28:32]
Host 1
It took two years to gather enough evidence to make an arrest. But after investigators listened to a wiretapped phone call in which Wolfgang told his son to destroy two computers full of evidence, they finally swooped in. Wolfgang and Helene Baltracci were arrested on 27 August 2010, while driving their five children to dinner. A year later, the pair stood trial, along with Helene's sister and a middleman called Otto Schul Kellinghouse, who'd been in on the deal. On the stand, Wolfgang Valtracci admitted to forging 14 paintings. Five by Max Ernst, three by Henrik Kampendonk, two by Andre Duren, two by Max Pestein, one by Keys van Dongen and one by Fernand Ledger. Those were the ones he admitted to. The real total is, of course, far likely to be far, far higher. As a result of complying with the authorities and pleading guilty to many of the crimes, Wolfgang Hellene and their accomplices all got off relatively lightly. Wolfgang got six years in an open prison from which he was allowed to keep his day job. Helene got four years in the same prison, and together the Couple worked at their friend's photography studio for the entire time. Otto was given five years and Helene's sister Jeanette was given a 21 month suspended sentence. All of them were out of prison within three years of being sentenced. Which I'm like, good.
- [30:01]
Host 2
So what of the paintings? As of right now, 54 of them by 24 different artists have been identified as fakes by Wolfgang Beltracci. Although it's probably a lot more than that. Investigators have had a really difficult time getting gallery owners to collaborate with them because why would they? Their reputations are on the line.
- [30:21]
Host 1
It's such a double edged sword. They obviously would want to not have the wool pulled over their eyes. But also if they open that can of worms, they're fucked.
- [30:29]
Host 2
Yeah, because they're admitting they don't know what they're talking about. And there is nothing an art wanker wants less. Anyway, that's not a problem with just these fakes. Fakes in general. Some actually estimate that 40% of pre war modern art in galleries is falsely represented. Whoa. But nobody's gonna prove it one way or the other, are they? So what difference does it make?
- [30:57]
Host 1
Nope. I think art is very much, to an extent worth the amount that somebody is willing to pay for it. And that is already inflated because you have higher ups in art telling you what is worthy and what is not. So whatever, buy what you like, enjoy it and you know, that's it.
- [31:16]
Host 2
I'm not going to tell you what to do. You can do whatever you want.
- [31:18]
Host 1
Exactly. I was going to say don't get fucked over. But also like, if you like it, who cares?
- [31:22]
Host 2
I mean, and you can afford it, go for it. I was thinking about this while we were recording. There are some crimes that you're like, yeah, yeah. And it's always. There has to be an element of extremely impressive skill that comes along with it. So that's sometimes con men, sometimes forgers, sometimes assassins. But it has to be that, like,
- [31:43]
Host 1
yeah, this is the sweet spot of like a man who was incredibly talented, a woman who was incredibly talented, and me not being that upset at the people they conned. So the perfect crime in our eyes. So go forth and enjoy and we will see you next time for another shorthand goodbye. You know what they say.
- [32:28]
Host 2
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- [32:58]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
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- [33:08]
Host 2
Hey, everyone, Check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?
- [33:11]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.
- [33:18]
Host 2
Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.
- [33:20]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
Anyways, get a quote@libertymutual.com or with your local agent.
- [33:23]
Host 2
Liberty Liberty. Liberty Liberty.
- [33:26]
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