BONUS: Your Spiritual Duty to Vote | Guest: Josh Howerton

Summary

Summary of "BONUS: Your Spiritual Duty to Vote | Guest: Josh Howerton"

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Blaze Podcast Network | Released November 1, 2024

In this insightful bonus episode of Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey, host Allie Beth engages in a profound discussion with Pastor Josh Howerton from Lake Point Church near Dallas, Texas. The episode delves into the crucial topic of the spiritual responsibility of Christians to vote, inspired by Josh’s viral sermon that garnered both acclaim and controversy.

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1. Introduction to Pastor Josh Howerton

Timestamp: [00:01 – 01:01]

Allie Beth introduces Pastor Josh Howerton, highlighting his recent viral sermon on the interplay between Christianity and politics. She acknowledges the positive reception of his courageous stance and the subsequent backlash he faced for addressing sensitive issues such as illegal immigration and national security.

Notable Quote:

"Pastor Josh is with us today and he is going to tell us from a biblical perspective why Christians have a spiritual responsibility to vote and how we should think about whom to vote for." – [01:01]

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2. Josh’s Ministry Background

Timestamp: [01:40 – 05:40]

Josh shares his rich heritage as a third-generation pastor, detailing his family's long-standing commitment to gospel ministry. He recounts his journey from youth pastor at First Baptist Church in Mount Washington, Kentucky, to leading Lake Point Church, which now boasts seven campuses and a congregation of up to 24,000 members.

Notable Quote:

"I'm a Bible guy. So, like, here's my lane. This is my team." – [42:13]

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3. The Viral Sermon and Its Impact

Timestamp: [07:00 – 09:10]

The conversation shifts to Josh’s viral sermon on voting, where he outlines the roles Christians play in upholding national values through electoral participation. Allie praises Josh’s clarity in presenting complex theological and political intersections, noting how the sermon has encouraged many believers to engage more deeply in the voting process.

Notable Quote:

"I increasingly have a conviction that I don't honestly, if it is connected to the word of God and it's beneficial for discipleship." – [07:46]

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4. Theological Framework: Sphere Sovereignty

Timestamp: [09:10 – 13:17]

Josh elaborates on Abraham Kuyper’s concept of sphere sovereignty, emphasizing that God has ordained distinct spheres: the family, the church, and the state. He argues that in a constitutional republic, Christians are positioned as pivotal voters responsible for guiding national leadership in alignment with biblical principles.

Notable Quote:

"If godly people refuse to exercise their spiritual responsibility for leadership via voting, the only people left influencing the nation are spiritless, godless people." – [12:37]

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5. Addressing Common Objections

Timestamp: [15:07 – 20:26]

Allie raises concerns about Christian nationalism and the fear of imposing religious beliefs on governance. Josh responds by clarifying that advocating for Christian ethics in politics is not synonymous with nationalism or theocracy. He explains that integrating faith with public policy is about promoting moral governance rather than establishing a religion-state merger.

Notable Quote:

"Separation of church and state doesn't mean a separation of morality and state." – [20:26]

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6. Understanding Christian Nationalism

Timestamp: [20:26 – 28:34]

Josh distinguishes between embracing Christian principles in government and the misconstrued notion of Christian nationalism. He asserts that nationalism, when grounded in biblical values, aligns with God’s design for societal governance. Josh addresses misconceptions, emphasizing that loving one’s country does not equate to prioritizing it over one’s faith.

Notable Quote:

"Nationalism was God's idea. That's how God ordered the world." – [29:09]

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7. The Role of Morality in Legislation

Timestamp: [28:34 – 36:25]

The discussion delves into Romans 13, where Josh underscores that government authority is divinely instituted to define and enforce morality. He contends that all laws inevitably legislate moral standards, challenging the notion of secular neutrality in governance. Josh emphasizes that Christians have a duty to influence legislation to reflect God’s moral framework.

Notable Quote:

"Morality is the only thing that ever gets legislated. There is no neutral position." – [36:05]

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8. Voting Strategy for Christians

Timestamp: [36:25 – 41:25]

Addressing the apprehension of choosing between imperfect candidates, Josh advises Christians to view voting as a strategic commitment to advancing righteousness rather than seeking sinless leadership. He likens voting to choosing the best available path to slow societal decay, aligning with the Biblical metaphor of Christians being the "salt of the earth."

Notable Quote:

"A vote is not a valentine. It’s your strategic choice to choose the best available path forward." – [37:36]

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9. Encouragement for Christians in Turbulent Times

Timestamp: [48:59 – 52:16]

In concluding remarks, Josh offers hope to Christians feeling anxious about the current socio-political climate. He draws parallels to biblical eras of moral decline and reassures listeners of God’s preservation of a faithful remnant poised for revival. Josh encourages perseverance and faith, reminding believers of the impending spiritual resurgence.

Notable Quote:

"Our great hope is when the next awakening, Reformation and revival happens and it sweeps our nation." – [49:29]

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10. Conclusion and Contact Information

Timestamp: [52:16 – 53:00]

Allie expresses gratitude to Pastor Josh for his profound insights. Josh shares his social media handles, inviting listeners to engage with him further online. The episode wraps up with mutual appreciation and encouragement for continued dialogue and active participation in both faith and civic duties.

Notable Quote:

"If you're a Christian and somebody lobs this at you, ooh, that's your pro life... What you have right now is a morally asymmetrical set of options." – [43:51]

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This episode serves as a compelling call to action for Christians to intertwine their faith with their civic responsibilities, advocating for informed and principled voting as a means to uphold and propagate biblical values within the societal framework.

Transcript

[A]

Josh Howerton, the pastor of a huge church outside of Dallas, Texas, Lake Point, went viral a couple weeks ago for his sermon on politics and how Christians should vote. He was so clear and so courageous. So many people appreciated this. But he also got a little bit of backlash for saying things like this.

[B]

Here's 17 of the illegal immigrants in the United states right now. 425,000 of them are known to have criminal records. 16,000 of them entered our nation as convicted rapists. 13,000 of them entered our nation as convicted murderers. I just have to ask this question. Where was the border czar? Where was the border czar? So you need to ask yourself the question you do. You need to ask yourself the question, which candidate will best protect our national security?

[A]

You know, I love to see this kind of boldness in a pastor. So Pastor Josh is with us today and he is going to tell us from a biblical perspective why Christians have a spiritual responsibility to vote and how we should think about whom to vote for. This episode is brought to you by friends at Good Ranchers. Go to good ranchers.com use code ALI at checkout. That's goodranchers.com code ALI. Pastor Josh, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. First, I just want to back up and hear about how you became a pastor.

[B]

Yeah, well, first of all, thanks for having me on.

[A]

This is a blast.

[B]

My family watches your show.

[A]

Well, thank you.

[B]

And our 13 year old daughter has been watching in preparation to see daddy on this show.

[A]

That is so sweet. 13 year old relate a gal. She's going to be so far ahead.

[B]

Yes. Ms. Eliana is going to feel very relatable. So sweet. Yeah. So I'm a third generation pastor. The Lord has been very kind to me through two generations. So my papaw Jerry was a pastor in rural Baptist churches in Kentucky, all over the place. My dad, Rick Howerton, good man. He's a good man. Retiring this month.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

From 52 years of faithful gospel ministry.

[A]

Praise God. That's right, Praise God.

[B]

And so, you know, honestly, I grew up like kind of a church rat. Like, and I loved it, like had a great experience, loved the church all growing up. And then, man, God called me to ministry early high school and then, you know, pretty normal path from there, you.

[A]

Know, what did that look like in high school? How did you realize that, man?

[B]

So Charles Spurgeon talks about three aspects of calling, Internal calling, external calling, and why door of effective service. Those were like the exact three for me. So like just really early I was watching my dad, you Know, I'm not a super emotional guy. I get emotional talking about my dad. Yeah, he's a good man and a good pastor. And honestly, I just watched my dad, like, I kept hearing all these stories about God changing people's lives and all this stuff. So, you know, very early on, I was just like, I would love to do that. I would love to do that someday. And then in high school, like, I just, you know, I got thrust into the FCA leadership thing, you know, the normal stuff. And other people just started going, you know, hey, Josh, would you do this? Would you teach this? Would you? You know, so external calling. And then God just started to open up doors. You know, you, to this day, cut me open. I'm a youth camp pastor. I just love, you know, so it kind of just progressed from there.

[A]

And were you raised Baptist?

[B]

Yeah, I grew up in, I think, what. What somebody would probably call, like, a kind of a sinner Baptist. Seeker sensitive. Yeah. Classic Baptist church.

[A]

Yeah. And when did you start leading Lake Point, man?

[B]

It's coming up on six years.

[A]

Wow. Okay. And how were you led into that position?

[B]

So to condense, like, 16 years. Really short.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My dad planted a church when I was in college, and so I was, like, on the couch watching. And this was, like, before church planting was cool. So I'm watching him. He parachuted into a city, rubbed two sticks together, you know, started church and. All right, so long story short, while he's doing that, I'm finishing up college. I go to be a youth pastor. I went to Southern Seminary up in Louisville. I'm a youth pastor at First Baptist Church, Mount Washington, Kentucky. Amazing experience. Like, I loved it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then dad had to step away from his church plant. He was traveling, like, 200 days a year with Lifeway. He worked at Lifeway. And long story short, God called me to do that. I'm there for 10 years, and the Lord just did a really sweet work. A really sweet work. And Pastor Steve Stroop, founding pastor of Lake Point Church. I was in this little cohort with him where they would take younger pastors of growing churches and stick them with somebody like that. And he invested in me, and it was just. We formed a bond, and then it developed into a coaching thing, which developed into him asking me to succeed him. And then the Lord, like, AX level supernatural things, called us to Lake Point, and. Yeah, six years in.

[A]

Yeah. And how big is Lake Point?

[B]

You know, it'll range now between 19 and 24,000.

[A]

Wow. Wow. How many campuses?

[B]

A lot of people.

[A]

It's so many people. So many people.

[B]

And they're the best.

[A]

Yeah, they're.

[B]

Seriously, they're the best people in the world. Yeah. Seven campuses now.

[A]

Okay. And how did you meet your wife?

[B]

Blind date.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yes, we did blind date. So the youth pastor, my youth pastor, Jeff Carlisle, great man. As soon as I got saved, like, he personally discipled me. So, like, I'm very early on. Just personal discipleship. My wife got sa. She was, you know, sorority thing in college. She got saved in college. Pretty radical conversion. As soon as she got saved, Jeff's wife, she went to college in the city where I went to high school. So Jeff's wife started discipling her shout out, Mary Beth. And so Jeff discipled me in high school. Mary Beth disciple Jana in college. Jana is single her senior year. And they're like, why are you single? Yeah, you know, and they literally. Allie, they sat down with you. Remember the old church directories with the pictures?

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

So they literally sat down and they're going through and like, what about him? What about him? What about him?

[A]

Oh, my goodness.

[B]

And then, you know, and then, and then, and then they got to me.

[A]

And, you know, she was like, oh, okay.

[B]

You know, it was more like Jeff and Mary Beth were like, it should be this guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so we started emailing and blind date.

[A]

Female. I love it. That's considered old school now, dude.

[B]

Our favorite movie is you've got Mail. That's our. That's our couple's movie. That's our couples movie.

[A]

And how long have y'all been married?

[B]

19.

[A]

19 years. My goodness. And you'll have three sweet, precious, beautiful kids.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Two girls and a boy, right? Two girls and a boy.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So fun.

[B]

Eliana Felicity Hudson.

[A]

Yes, Hudson.

[B]

My 5 year old prayed for you this morning.

[A]

Well, tell Hudson thank you. I'll tell Hudson thank you. Thank you, Hudson. I really, really do value that so much. All right, you have probably gone viral a few times, but most recently, this was about a sermon. Yeah. That started circulating online about the election that's coming up. And you laid it out. We covered it on this show. And you said, look, this is what both sides stand for. These are the issues at stake. Here's what the Bible has to say about these things. Tell me from your perspective what the response has been.

[B]

Yeah, so, you know, overwhelmingly positive. Overwhelmingly positive. I think I've heard you say before on the show that clarity is kindness. And, dude, I increasingly have a conviction. The Apostle Paul said that he commended himself to the conscience of his people. By setting forth the truth plainly, I increasingly have a conviction that I don't honestly, if it is connected to the word of God and it's beneficial for discipleship. And I think it. I don't want to be a pastor that has all these things that I think, but that I won't say. And so honestly, you know, I just. That was my. That was my conviction. Overwhelmingly positive. Anytime you kind of. You go over the middle, you're going to get hit by a linebacker. And you know, that happens too. So. But I'd say 95, 5, 90, 10. Positive.

[A]

Yeah. For those who have not seen the whole sermon, first of all, you should. We'll link it in the description. I watched the whole thing. So good. I mean, I really have been thinking about some of the things that you said since then, and I talk about this stuff a lot. But I love how plainly you said the truth. It's really challenged me and encouraged me a lot and how I explain this to Christians. But for those who haven't, can you summarize first? I'll go one by one. First summarize why Christians should vote at all.

[B]

Yeah. So of everything I said, this was the most controversial. I do. I'll gently venture out on a limb. I think Christians have a spiritual responsibility to vote. And I know that can be tough for some people. But let me back up and do a little theology really quick. So here's what I would say. This is Abraham Kuyper Sphere sovereignty. For theological terms, what the scriptures teach is that God has ordered the world in terms of God has established three institutions, the family, the church, and the state. Okay. In the same way. And we can talk. There's tentacles to this conversation. In the same way that it would be morally wrong for a husband to refuse to lead his family, and it would be morally wrong for a pastor to refuse to lead his church. It would be morally wrong for the leaders of a nation to refuse to lead the nation. Now, a lot of people hear that and they're like, well, of course, Josh, you know, presidents should lead and senators and congressmen, da, da, da. But this is what's really important. We live in a constitutional republic. We do not live in a democracy. We live in a constitutional republic. In a constitutional republic, I'll ask you a question. In a constitutional republic, the elected officials are representatives of the people. The people. That's right. So in a constitutional republic, the voters are at the top of the org chart. So I think that's something that I think a lot of. Well, Meaning, but I'll gently say maybe a little naive, a lot of well meaning but maybe naive Christians forget that. Hey, Romans 13 says that God has established the governments and governing leaders in our constitutional republic. If you are a voting Christian, God has placed you at this time, in this place, at the top of the constitutional republic org chart in which you find yourself. And so I would gently say in the same way that if a man won't lead his family, we messed up. If a pastor won't lead his church, we messed up. If the Christian voters of a nation refuse to lead that nation and abdicate their spiritual responsibility to lead, I think we're messing up. And do you mind if I make one more point here, please? So you're going to see a pattern in the scriptures and this is really interesting to me in study the pattern in the scriptures is that let me get my language right. It's been a few weeks since I preached the sermon that whatever, I'll do this. Whatever God creates, Satan tries to co opt. Let's do that. Yeah, so you'll see this, you see with the exact same spheres, family, church, state. So in Genesis 2 and 3, Adam refuses to lead his family. So I'll just say this to any husbands listening. The first thing that happens, Adam refuses to lead, so Satan does. So hey husbands, if you won't lead your family, Satan will be happy too. Okay, well then fast forward all the way to the end of the Bible. In Revelation 2 and 3 you got the seven letters to the church. So what you have there is remember what you had was you had some passive pastors. Like it literally addresses this. You had some passive pastors who instead of leading their churches to repent of sin, they led their churches to tolerate sin. So in their passivity. And Romans 2 and 3 literally says those churches became quote, a synagogue of Satan. So hey pastors, if you won't lead your church, Satan will be happy too. In the same way, if spirit filled, godly people will not lead their nation by voting, Godless people will. So I just want to mic drop that and let that settle on our spirits. If godly people refuse to exercise their spiritual responsibility for leadership via voting, the only people left influencing the nation are spiritless, godless people. So if you won't lead your nation, Satan will be happy too.

[A]

Okay y'all, I am so excited to tell you about Operation Christmas Child. If you grew up in the church, especially like a good old Baptist church like I did, then you probably remember these iconic boxes. You choose an age group and boy or girl. And then you fill this with non perishable items, with toys and clothing and art supplies for a child in need. And I have a friend who is from Zimbabwe and she actually saw firsthand kids in Africa who had never gotten a present before. Open these. And the joy that it brought these kids just left an indelible mark on her. And every time I see a video of kids opening these boxes, it just warms my heart so much. This is a great way to show the tangible love of Christ through our generosity. And it's also a really sweet thing to do with your kids as you were teaching them about love, about generosity, about how to help those who don't have as much as we do. National collection week for your shoe box for Operation Christmas child is November 18th through the 25th. The shoe boxes will be collected across the country at nearly 4,500 drop off locations. All you have to do is go to samaritans purse.org occ to learn how to pack a shoe box. Or you can build one online. It'll also show you where to drop it off. Go to samaritansperse.org occ But Josh, our kingdom is not of this world. We were citizens. We're citizens of heaven. Jesus is coming back. And oh, by the way, if Christians are trying to influence the public sphere, then we're Christian nationalists.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

What say you?

[B]

Let's talk. Okay. Because I think. Okay, so let me just say, if you're a person who you feel the things that Allie just said. First of all, let me just say, I get it. Like, honestly, if you got in a time machine and you had this conversation with me, I'm going to say eight years ago, I literally would have said what you just said. But then we have these Bible verses, these pesky Bible verses. Okay, so for instance, a couple things, you know, you said, hey, Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world, but he also prayed, your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. Like, for some reason, I feel like we sort of selectively apply the verses. I have thoughts about why that may or may not happen. I feel like sometimes we'll selectively edit which verses will apply so that the ratchet only goes in one direction. Here's another one that a lot of people objected to the sermon. Hey, Josh. Well, actually, I'd say two things. Hey, Josh, Jesus. Well, I'll do this one. Jesus said, give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what's God's. And a lot of people use that verse to me, hey, just do your spiritual thing over here with the church and let Caesar do his thing with the government. That is not at all what that verse is talking about.

[A]

Can you explain that?

[B]

Yeah. So you remember it. What Jesus does, He takes the coin and he goes, hey, this is really important. I love this passage so much. Dude. This is such a great passage. Whose image and likeness is on the coin? What's Caesar's? And Jesus goes, well, then give to Caesar what Caesar's and God was, guys. But Jesus is drawing on our. On our theology from Genesis and Jesus. This is. So it's the genius of Jesus. Jesus is implicitly asking everyone the question, so whose image and likeness is on you? And he's going, okay, well, then you need to give yourself to. Because you were created in the image of God. You need to give yourself to God. But here's the point. And this is what a lot of Christians miss. Caesar was created in the image of God. So Caesar belongs to God. So when people go, hey, give to Caesar what's Caesar's, and give to God what's God's. And they take that to me and keep the spiritual over here and the civic over here. Wrong. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Because every Civic leader, Caesar, is created in God's image, and therefore they owe their allegiance and bentany to King Jesus.

[A]

Yeah. And in Romans 13, as you already referenced, the government was instituted by God.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

To punish evil and to reward good.

[B]

This is really important.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

Yeah, well, I think if somebody says that, you know, hey, so that begs a question. The question is, who gets to define what's good and evil? So this is the immediate question?

[A]

Yeah, okay.

[B]

This is the immediate question. In any government, you have to ask the question. Okay, yes, government punishes evil, rewards good. Well, who gets to define it? Well, we're obviously reading the Bible, and we're obviously reading in Romans 13 that God established the civic authorities. So God gets to define what's good and evil. Therefore, the government is on the hook for rewarding good in God's eyes, punishing evil in God's eyes. And, you know, I'll go. I didn't say this in the sermon. What we have right now. So I think the government, if you zoom all the way out, the government has three big rock responsibilities. Reward evil, punish good. And then I think you could say, protect borders from Voron invasion. I think you could do that. We literally have a government doing the reverse image of those three things right now. We have a government that is rewarding evil, that is at times punishing good, and that is facilitating. Invasion might be an aggressive word, but it might not be.

[A]

It might be infiltration, whatever you wanna call it.

[B]

Yep. So there it is on Romans 13. Do you wanna do the Christian nationalism thing?

[A]

Yeah, but I just want to pause on something that you said because I reference Romans 13 a lot to explain to people that part of our responsibility is to engage civically because governments were God's idea, laws were God's idea. And as you've already mentioned, we have this right, have this privilege, living here in the United States, to choose our public servants. That's who they're supposed to be, to represent our own interests. But I don't know if I've ever gone so far as to say what you just said, which is so brilliant. Who gets to define good and evil? The truth is, if it's not Christians, as you mentioned earlier, it's going to be someone else. Some people have this idea that you can compartmentalize your faith from your politics, and somehow we come up with this, like, neutral secular ideology, which is not neutral at all. But every law was formed by a worldview, a view of morality. Every single law is a legislation of morality, even a speeding law. It is wrong to go past a speed limit for particular reasons. And so who gets to define good and evil? Don't we want it to be the followers of the God who created good and who defines what is right and wrong? So that is just a brilliant point, but go ahead.

[B]

That is right. Well, and on that, what you get into is the two objections to what you just said are separation church and state. And then you can't legislate morality. I don't know if you want to do that or you want to do the Christian nationalism thing.

[A]

Let's. Let's go with that first, and then we can go into the Christian nationalism thing. Go ahead. What do you say when people are like, yeah, but separation of church and state. So Christians should shut up.

[B]

Yeah. So first of all, let's go here. Let's go back to the original intent of the phrase separation church and state. So I'm a pastor, I am not a US Historian or a civics expert, but I do know this, that the phrase separation church and state is not in our governing documents anywhere. Separation church and state originally appeared in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury baptists in the 1700s. And the purpose of the phrase was to protect the church from interference from the state. This is really important so if you go back to the 1700s, you know, you're in the context of Revolutionary War. All the things you had in England, which we obviously revolted, revolution revolted from. What you had was a state sponsored church. So the state was enveloping the church. So you got these Danbury Baptists that are like, ah, we're scared that's going to happen to us. And Thomas Jefferson writes and he goes, nope, that's not going to happen because we believe in a separation of church and state. Now this is really important. So that doesn't mean this is. Here's the language that's important. Separation of church and state does not mean a separation of morality and state, as you have just stated. That is literally impossible. We may get to this at some point later. But morality is all that gets legislated. Every law that has ever existed legislates a morality. So separation of church and state doesn't mean a separation of morality and state. And separation of church and state doesn't mean a separation of politics and religion. That's actually impossible and clearly not what the founders desired separates church and state. It means a separation of governments. So this is what Thomas Jefferson was speaking into. I know you know this, but for our readers, for our listeners, this is what he was speaking into is the English British situation where the governing entities of the state and the church were one. So what it's saying is the same guy that's the president of the government shouldn't also be the Pope of the church. That's what separates church and state means. And again, its intent was to keep the government from interfering with the church. You know, like the government telling churches they have to shut down for two years. Right, things like that.

[A]

Yeah. Which is interesting because I did not hear those who typically cry out separation of church and state, they weren't concerned at all when the state tried to infiltrate the church during COVID as you just mentioned. But just to add on to that, separation of church and state is also not separation of God in law. And that is something that we see in our founding documents. Obviously the Declaration of Independence described our rights as inalienable because they come from a creator. And so the founders actually could not even foresee, couldn't construct a country without the idea of a transcendent power giving us our rights. That's kind of the entire basis of self governance.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. I mean it's just, you know, it's just plain logic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How are you going to have a morality, moral law without a moral lawgiver?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Our Founders very clearly understood that, you know, endowed by our Creator. And then I'm not going to get all the facts right here, but there is a laundry list of things like, you know, 11 out of the original 13 colonies had in their charters.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, affiliations with denominations and things like this.

[A]

Oh, yeah, so that's true. And actually there were qualifications for holding office and the original 13 colonies were that you had to be even in some cases, like a very specific kind of Protestant. And so this is in the foundation of our country for sure. On the Christian nationalism piece, what I notice is that it's only conservative Christians who are told that allowing our faith to inform our politics is theocracy. But when Kamala Harris, when she gets up at a church and she says, you know, weeping lasts for the night, but joy cometh in the morning and the joy is herself, that apparently is not Christian nationalism or Christo fascism. It's only if you and I say, hey, you know, Psalm 139 makes pretty clear that God even formed our and saw our unformed substance. That to me means there's a value of life inside the womb. We probably shouldn't legally kill those babies. That all of a sudden is scary Christian nationalism. So can you break that down for us?

[B]

Yeah, you know, I've noticed that same phenomenon. There's a little bit, and this is a bit of a side tangent. I think there's a lot of pastors that are trying to figure out the moment. You know, if you kind of go back, I'd say in the last 15, 20 years, for a variety of reasons, some well meaning and some maybe not as well meaning, there's sometimes a bit of a tendency to do, I call it coddle left, punch right, coddle left, punch right, right. So, man, if it's a left coded issue or statement, man, we're very thoughtful, we're very reasoning, we're very affirming of let's find what we can affirm. If it's a right coded issue, it's like prophetic declaration and tear down, you know, all the things. So you'll see this with some of the language that when a Christian stands on the scriptures to advocate for a right coded issue, that's scary Christian nationalism. When somebody stands on a Bible verse to advocate for a left coded issue, that's prophetic witness in the public square.

[A]

Oh yeah. Speaking truth to power.

[B]

That's right. It's faithful presence is what that is. You know, so I do notice that. I just got to say, I think you got to try not to see that. To not see that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So when you get to the Christian nationalism thing, I think that's what you see. So my little thing that I say is, I say 99% of the time, 99% of the time when somebody uses the phrase Christian nationalism, it is an intentionally unstable scare label whose subtext is, I'm allowed to advocate for my values in the public square, but you're not allowed to advocate for yours 99% of the time. So if you're a Christian and somebody lobs this at you, ooh, that's your pro life, whatever it is, you believe in a biblical definition of marriage, in how society is ordered. Ooh, you're a Christian nationalist. What you will always notice is the person who is saying that to you is extremely comfortable advocating for their beliefs about those issues in the public square. And if you trace their beliefs all the way down to the bottom, again, you can't have a moral law without a moral lawgiver. If you trace their beliefs all the way down to the bottom, they are making some religious faith assumptions in how they arrived at their worldview as well. So it just so happens that it's okay for them to advocate for their religious faith assumptions the public square, but when you do it, you're a scary Christian nationalist.

[A]

Yeah. And a lot of times it's not even the so called progressive Christians, because I certainly see that from them, that they will cherry pick Bible verses and they will say this should inform our policy. Like the early church shared things with each other. So communism is great. Or God told ancient Israel to love the foreigner. And so open borders is great.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

That kind of cherry picking is fine. But if we do even proper exegesis to say, well, these are the principles we see throughout scripture, this is what we see about God's character. So this is where I land on immigration. That especially as you said, if it lands on a right coded conclusion or in support of a conservative policy, that's when things become very scary. Christianity, nationalistic and fascist and all of these crazy things.

[B]

So here's the, the other thing I would say about the Christian nationalism thing is I do think that there's. And by the way, like almost nothing that I'm saying right now is original to me. I just want to point that out. I do think that when it comes to this, there's confusion, maybe intentional confusion in the language. I think when some people, like if you're a listener, you know, to Allie, you probably are a little more discerning, but you May have had this thrown at you and not known what to do with it. Hey, isn't nationalism idolatry? You know, that's. And what people do is they think when they hear the word nationalism, they think the person is referring to ordered affections. Oh, if you're a nationalist, that means that you love your country more than God. Yeah, that's like not what literally anybody means. Yeah, when we're talking about nationalism, when people are talking about nationalism, they're almost exclusively referring to the span of government. That's what they're almost exclusively referring to. So you have three options. You have tribalism, nationalism or globalism. You know, tribalism is, you know, that's a bunch of very small self contained tribes running around. It's total chaos. Nationalism is what we have right now in the world in general. In the world?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In general. It's sovereign nations. That's. Let me just go ahead and get this out here. Nationalism was God's idea. That's how God ordered the world. He ordered the world into nations. Global. So it's span of government. Globalism is one world government concept. So when people are saying nationalism, what they're not saying is, oh, we want you to love your country more than Jesus. Nobody is saying that. Oh, by the way, that would be a sin. It is definitely a sin to love your nation more than you love Jesus. I just happen to think that's like not true of almost anybody Christians. So people are talking about span of governments. So once you get there, then you go, okay, nationalism was where we are. Then you gotta go, well, what kind of nationalism do you want? Do you want secular nationalism? Do you want Islamic nationalism? What kind of you want? And because we're Christians, I honestly think this is pretty basic. Like if I were to have a conversation with you, Ali, and we were talking about this, the first thing I would just ask is, if you're a Christian, do you believe that society would be better if in general our society followed Christian principles and ethics? Yeah. The answer to that is yes.

[A]

And if you say no, as a Christian, my question would be why do you not believe God's ways are better? And if God created the heavens and the earth and he's the authority over all of it, the definer of all things. And by the way, he's not just the authority and creator. God is love. So everything God says and does, he says and does from love. And so if I'm to love my neighbor, how can I love him in a way that God detests or disagrees with?

[B]

His commands are not burdensome. Yeah, his commands are not burdensome. That's, that's what we're talking about.

[A]

Next and last sponsor for the day is First Liberty. First Liberty is on the front lines fighting for the First Amendment rights of Americans. It is the largest legal organization in the nation dedicated exclusively to defending religious liberty for all Americans. So for example, service members who didn't want to get the experimental COVID vaccine and were punished by the military for that decision, even though this was a decision they made in conjunction in alignment with their conscience, with their religious beliefs. Yeah, First Liberty is defending people like that. They are doing amazing work. And right now the Biden administration and Harris as a candidate is promising to pack and expand the Supreme Court with progressive activists, in which case we could kiss our constitutional freedoms goodbye. First Liberty is doing everything they can to make sure that doesn't happen. All you have to do is go to supremecoo.com stucky that's supreme coup.com stuckey learn how you can help stop the radical left's takeover of the Supreme Court. You know, I also notice this idea that, you know, we can leave our Christian faith behind and then when we go into the public sphere, we don this like neutral secular ideology. But this neutral secular ideology says that babies don't become people until they go through the birth canal. That's a superstitious, non scientific, weird belief and believes that kids can be born in the wrong body. So people who believe that they get to insert their definitions, their weird beliefs into school curriculum, into public policy. They define policy and recommendations from are, you know, the ivory towers from the halls of power. Our bureaucracy is defined by progressive ideology, which is not neutral, it is superstitious. And so why does a progressive secularist who has their own dogmas and their own pseudo religion, why is their view seen as neutral? But my view as a Christian who just believes, as you said, and a moral lawgiver, why is mine the crazy one? It's not.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I say we all should bring the fullness of our worldview into the public sphere and let the best idea win.

[B]

Yeah. So like a great example of this. So what you're talking about, Ali, especially where your listeners will get this thrown at them or they'll feel it is. What you're talking about is loaded into the phrase you can't legislate morality. Yeah, that's the worldview behind the phrase you can't legislate morality is the myth of neutrality. So that's what you're. That's what if you're listening. That's what Ali's driving at. It's a myth of neutrality that there's some way for us to sort of just order society to where nobody's beliefs are infringed upon and, you know, that sort of thing. And you know, we can rip the mask off that really fast. Because here's what you can't legislate morality. That's another one. It always gets applied rightward. I'll just, I'll just. That's another one where you see coddle left, punch right. It only gets applied rightward in general. So for instance, and as others, others have pointed this out, a great example of this is with abortion. So somebody may say to a Christian that has a consistent pro life ethic, which I do, just go ahead and get this out there. I had this in the sermon. It is a tragedy that we do not have a consistently pro life candidate in front of us right now. So I just want to acknowledge that that's a tragedy. We may get into that later. But you take the issue of abortion. What a pro choice person might say to you is, hey, when you advocate for pro life legislation, you're trying to force your morality on the mother. And honestly, the answer to that question is yes. Yes, that is what is trying to happen. But the question is not whether morality is going to get legislated. The question is whose morality is going to get legislated? Because when somebody advocates for a pro choice position, their morality gets very violently forced on the baby.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So see, what everyone needs to understand is morality is the only thing that ever gets legislated. There is no neutral position with an example like the one we just pointed out. And that plays itself out in a myriad of ways.

[A]

Yeah, okay, but both candidates are so bad. And I don't like the policies maybe of the left, but Trump, I just don't like some of the things he said. He scares me. So maybe I just won't vote or I'll vote third party. I just, I can't vote between the lesser of two evils. What do you say?

[B]

Okay, first of all, let me just say if you feel that way, dude, honestly, I kind of get it. Like, I have compassion for that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like if I was drawn up by perfect candidate, you know, I'm not looking at one of them right now. But here's a few things that I would say to that, that person. I honestly think what happens there is. It's a. It's two misunderstandings stacked on top of each other. A misunderstanding about what A vote is and is not. And this is really, really important. So let me. And then the other thing is a taxonomy of biblical leaders. So let me. Let me do them in order.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So a few things. I talk about this in the sermon. So I'll try to convince.

[A]

Maybe not everyone heard this. And this is a really important point.

[B]

Okay, so number one, you know, it's. They're little pithy statements. I'm a preacher. That's what I do.

[A]

No, that's good.

[B]

You know, number one, a vote is not a valent. And, you know, that's like the great example. You know, you're in middle school and you walk in and you're like, oh, they're so cool and cute and funny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's how you decide who you give your valentine to. I hope it goes without saying that to everyone that's listening. That's not how mature Christians should vote. So, honestly, a great example of this is the 1960 presidential election. You had JFK, Richard Nixon, first televised presidential debate ever. Before the debate, Nixon was apparently crushing Kennedy. They walk in and do the first ever presidential debate. Nixon, a little older, chooses not to do the makeup. All the things. Kennedy, younger, apparently more attractive, does the makeup. And I think I read something like 20 or 40 million people even back then. Watch that debate.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And you know, the polls radically swung to JFK after the debate because people were like, he's so dreamy. That was it. But we don't do this, so this may be a little sensitive. So what mature Christians should not do. God specifically says this in First Samuel is look at a person's outward appearance. It's like, we shouldn't vote based on vibes, or I like his personality, or he's got the same skin color as me, or she'd be the first woman president. We shouldn't do that. You know, a vote's not a valentine. Let me shorten this up. The other one that I think is really important is for people to understand that a selection is not a sacrament. So a sacrament is a religious ritual like communion, baptism, marriage. And a convictional Christian knows my job is to not let any impurity into those things. And honestly, I think a lot of very committed, convictional, wonderful Christians are getting tripped up on this because they feel that their vote is like a sacrament. And they're like, I'm not supposed to mix any impurity with my vote, but that is to misunderstand what a vote is. Okay, here's what a vote is. A vote is your strategic choice to choose the best available path forward. That's what your vote is. We have never had a sinless candidate. Every election in the history of our nation has been a choice between two evils. Because every election in the history of our nation has been a choice between two sinners. So a vote is not a sacrament. It's a strategic decision about the best available path forward. So let me put this to you in biblical terms. If you're a Christian that's listening. So Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says you're the salt of the earth. Salt is a preservative whose purpose is to slow decay. So this is really important when a Christian's voting. We're not asking who is the perfect candidate, which candidate has no flaws. We're not asking that. We should be asking the question which candidates policies is most likely to slow societal decay. That's all you're asking. Salt of the earth, you're applying that. So those are the two quick things I would say if somebody feels what you just said. I'd say, man, a little bit of a misunderstanding about what a vote is.

[A]

And it's not a full endorsement of necessarily every policy. I'm, you know, I'm as pro life as they come. I believe in the natural biblical definition of marriage. I think that our country would be better off if they were where we are on those things. And Trump is not where I am on those things. And some of the things that he said about reproductive technology and abortion, I'm totally not on board with. But I think some people say that and they leave it at that. But the reality is, is that there's a lot of daylight between the two sides. The Harris Biden administration is imprisoning pro lifers while rewarding abortionists. Talk about an inverse of Romans 13. Whereas Donald Trump is likely to pardon those pro lifers and advocate for defunding the abortion lobby. So just on that alone, there's a huge difference.

[B]

Yeah. So like, I'll just, I'll just, you know, dude, I just think you have to acknowledge this. I just want to say this on record. I have not, I'm not tying my hope and allegiance to the gop. Yeah, I have not accepted the GOP into my heart. But if we're speaking honestly right now, you can literally just go to the RNC website and read the policies. Then one click later, go to the DNC website and read the policies. Listen, I'm very sorry if this is difficult for somebody to acknowledge. This moment simply requires somebody to acknowledge moral asymmetry. I have not Accepted the GOP into my heart. In fact, here's my philosophy on this. Dude, I'm a Bible guy. So, like, here's my lane. This is my team. I'm a Bible guy. To whatever degree your party, I don't care who you are, to whatever degree, your party is for Team Jesus and Team Jesus ethics, policies and guidelines. Awesome, man. I'm going to cheer you on. I'm going to help you whenever you cross that. My job is to stand up and prophetically declare, get back in your lane. Get out. Get out. And listen, I know this is really tough, but right now, if you go to the RNC website, there are no policies on the RNC website. The current platform where they are advocating. You might correct me, but I'm pretty sure I'm right on this because I did skim before my sermon. They are not advocating for the advancement of any evil. However, there is only one party that is advocating for demonic perversion. That is a fact.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So listen, do we have, you know, do we have a perfect thing in front of us? No, we don't. But do we have a morally asymmetrical set of options in front of us? Yes, we absolutely do.

[A]

Yeah. I would say Republicans as a whole, no. But I would disagree with the subsidizing of in vitro fertilization just because of the embryonic destruction there. I would also disagree with the gop, many in the gop about, like, the legalization of weed just because I don't think our society needs that on the.

[B]

Is it. But is that on the RNC platform?

[A]

No, that's what I was about to say is that Trump himself has said those things. But thankfully, we live in a world with checks and balances to where it's Congress who writes the laws and Trump who signed the laws. And so I'm more concerned about that. But we shouldn't look at, on either side any. What any one politician says. That's why what she said is so important. Don't just look at what the politicians say. Look at the policies that they represent and also look at what they have done. Kamala Harris isn't hiding the fact that she was the furthest left Senate while she's trying to hide the fact that she was the furthest left senator when she was in the Senate, even alongside Bernie Sanders. So people can look at the policies. That's what they should look at before putting all of the weight on these politicians words. Politicians say a lot of things.

[B]

Yeah, they do.

[A]

All right, y'all, I am so excited about election coverage at Blaze TV. Join me. Join my Blaze TV colleagues. You can go to Blazee.com Ali. You get a really big discount on your Blaze subscription when you do 40 off. That's amazing. And you can join us that night to get all of my commentary on everything that's going on on election night, go to Blazeelection.com Ali.

[B]

The other thing I would say is I do think a lot of Christians, they think in a binary when it comes to types of leaders, and it causes them to put any flawed leader, lump all flawed leaders into one category and flatten it. So here's my little example. So in the Old Testament, you have three. A taxonomy of three types of leaders. You have Josiah leaders. Josiah, amazing leader, young, righteous, essentially, is converted, regenerated, discovers the Old Testament law back in a church closet somewhere, reads it to the entire nation, leads the nation in mass revival. And, dude, I'll just, you know my heart. Like, I love my country and I love Jesus a lot more than my country. Like, I'm praying we see that in our day. Yeah, like, oh, my gosh, 100%. I would just be overwhelmed to see a national revival like that in our day. Yes, that'd be amazing. So a Josiah leader is a righteous leader who celebrates and promotes righteousness. Then you have a second category of leaders, like Ahab and Jezebel leaders. I'm just picking them because the Old Testament says those are the most wicked leaders Israel ever had. Those are leaders who celebrate and promote wickedness. That's what Ahab and Jezebel do. You had passive, evil, king, promiscuous, controlling queen, celebrated godlessness and perversion. So that's the second category. A lot of Christians think those are the only two types of leaders you got. If they think that, then what ends up happening to them is they look at any leader with flaws and they just lump them into category two and they morally flatten the playing field. But in the Old Testament, there's actually a third type of leader. Like I call a Jehu leader. Jehu was the king that came right after Ahab and Jezebel. Deeply flawed dude. Like, deeply. He was a violent man, very aggressive. Slaughters prophets of baal, throws Jezebel out of a window, executes judgment on the priests, the false priests, for the false gods. But he was a really flawed guy. This was in my quiet time, like two weeks ago. He permitted golden calf worship to continue in Israel. Didn't tear down the high places, all the things, but he was used for some good purposes. So I think wise Christians have to have a third category of leader in their head. And they man, sometimes what you have is you've got a really flawed leader that God still uses for some good purposes. Or if you want to, you could say, or that is still used for good purposes. And I think Christians need to have a moral imagination that is as. I hate the word nuance. I'm totally out on the word nuance. That is as variegated as the Old Testament.

[A]

That's really good. What is some final encouragement that you would give to Christians in this time? Say, let's say it's for the Christians who are dedicated to listening to the show. So they've all already voted or they are definitely voting. The Christians who are engaged, but they're like, look, I am nervous. I am so nervous about what's going to happen in the next few months, in the next few years. I know Jesus is coming back, but I just need some, some encouragement to cling to. What would you say?

[B]

Let me say two things. So, like, in my time in the Word this morning, my heart was, like, overwhelmed with this. So, like, this is hot. This is coming out fresh. Every single time there is a national revival in the scriptures, it's always in a period of degradation and decline. And I do just want to encourage Christians, like, we literally have a command. Do not trust in princes. Hey, princes matter. Let me just. Some Christians say, do not trust in princes. So we just shouldn't care. That's really foolish. But, like, at the end of the day, if enough people are not converted, filled with the spirit of God, Bible in their hands, wisdom in their heads, then even if the right policies and leaders get put forward, there's not enough people to vote for them. So, like, our great hope is. And I'm not saying if. I'm saying when. Our great hope is when the next awakening, Reformation and revival happens and it sweeps our nation, the Lord has done it before and he's going to do it again. And it usually happens in a period of decline and decay. Do I have time for one more encouragement, please? Okay.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The other one. I'm always like, as a pastor, I'm always trying to, like, find what Bible story is a good archetype for our cultural moment. And I honestly think Elijah during Ahab and Jezebel is a good map. And so if you're a Christian who, like me, I was talking to my dad about this a few weeks ago. If you're a Christian who's. You've been alive for a minute and you're going like, dang, man, like, it's rough out here. What are we doing?

[A]

Not looking good. Yeah.

[B]

What are we doing? You remember what happens to Elijah? So what you have is you have a nation that's marked by passive men and promiscuous, controlling women. You have incredible moral decay, perversion, rising opposition to godliness. They closed the churches. That's like literally a thing that happened. They shut down, canceled, deplatformed all the truth speaking prophets. And at the end of his little ministry spot there, Elijah's on the mountain and he's like, man, I think I'm the only one left. And I think Christians right now, they can feel like really alone. Like, man, like, I got friends deconverting and deconstructing, and, man, I thought that pastor was going to be solid, and he wasn't. And what happened? Yeah, and. And then the Lord's like, hey, I've reserved 7,000 who didn't bow the knee to Baal. And God's telling him, I always preserve a remnant for revival that will lead to a resurgence of my purposes in the church. And you can take that to the bank.

[A]

Praise God. Well, thank you so much, Pastor Josh. I really appreciate you. And if people want to reach out to you, ask you questions, can they do that? And if so, how?

[B]

Yeah, so I love playing around on social media. It gives me trouble sometimes, but I enjoy it.

[A]

No, it's fine. You use social media in a really great way. Not all pastors can say that. And I love that.

[B]

What? It depends who. Some people think it's great, some people.

[A]

Don'T, but of course, that's the arena.

[B]

Yeah. So Instagram, I think, is Oshowerton. Is that right? Yep, Oshowerton. I'm getting a thumbs up from my social media people. That's right, Oshowerton. Facebook is. I don't even know what it is, but I play around with it.

[A]

Yeah, you can type in his name. I'm sure it'll come up. Well, thank you so much, Pastor Josh. I really appreciate you.

[B]

Thank you.