← Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Ep 1167 | Meryl Streep Can’t Be Aslan & the Truth About Prosperity Teaching in the 'Black Church'
01:04:37
Loading summary
Transcript25 lines
- [00:01]
Ali Stuckey
Meryl Streep is in talks to play Aslan in Greta Gerwig's new adaptation of the Chronicles of Narnia. And man, do I have thoughts about that. I will also be responding to the controversy that was apparently created by my conversation on this show just a couple weeks ago when Melissa Dougherty and I discussed the prosperity gospel in majority black churches. My oh my. All right. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends at Good ranchers. Go to good ranchers.com use code ALI at checkout. That's good ranchers.com code ALLY hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend. All right, we've got a few things to talk about today, but I don't have producer Bri here to talk about the first subject, which is Meryl Streep possibly playing Aslan and Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, a new adaptation of that. I really wanted to get her thoughts, but she is sick today. So please pray for producer Bri that she would make a quick and full recovery and be back here so we can talk about all the important stuff. But but I'll give you my take on it and then we can see what she thinks when she is back and ready to give her commentary. But before we get into the topics today, I just want to remind you guys, share the arrows October 11th in Dallas, Texas. This is a Christian women's conference for Christian women who want solid and deep theology, who don't want to be coddled, who don't want to hear all about how beautiful and enough they are, who don't just want a gospel of self fulfillment, but really want biblical truth. They want to be challenged. They want to be equipped in their calling, in their motherhood, in whatever space God has placed them in. This conference is for you. If you want to be able to face a hostile culture with the courage that comes from knowing God's word and through the power of the Holy Spirit, then Share the Arrows is for you. Share the arrows. If you don't know what that name is from that was an ism is an ism that we have used on the show for a long time and it is how I describe what I believe Christians are called to do. When we see a fellow believer getting lambasted, getting attacked, getting canceled, if you want to call it that, for simply standing up for what is right. So whether that's a business owner or whether that's an influencer or whatever it is, if they are in a public space face, whether it's in their own community or online, and they are standing up for something that is biblically true and they are getting attacked, harassed for it. Their business is getting threat, threatened over it. Rather than us watching that go down and saying, glad that's not me, glad that I'm not in that position. No, no, no, no. We stand up and we say, you know that thing that they're getting attacked for? I believe it too. And we all stand up and we share the arrows that are being lodged at them and we say, you can call me whatever you want, you can do whatever you want, but we're not going to allow them to stand alone. It's actually a very positive way to respond to bullying because rather than just returning evil with evil, we are showing solidarity and courage with our fellow believers. By the way, that is a really good method of defending the least of these my brothers that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 25. He is talking specifically in that passage about persecuted Christians. And while persecution here doesn't look the same as it looks in Yemen or China, I don't pretend that it does. It still counts when Jack Phillips, the baker at Masterpiece Cake Shop, has had his life completely, I won't say completely ruined because God has used his story for good and has really protected him. But there has been a systematic attempt at ruining his life for more than a decade through malicious lawfare because he would not bake a cake celebrating either gender transitions or these so called marriage between two men. Yeah, that counts as persecution. It does. And so whether it's on a big scale or a small scale, we Christians stand up and say, yeah, we are with you, we're praying for you, we're going to encourage you and we are going to repeat what you're saying because we will not apologize for God. We're not trying to let him off the hook. We're not trying to out nice God. We believe God, we love God, and, and so we will publicly defend what he says, no matter what the world calls us. So that is sharing the arrows and how we do that, how we get the courage to do that is by of course being empowered by his spirit. But knowing him and knowing his word and knowing apologetics and knowing where the church should stand on all these controversial culture war issues. And so that's what every year is going to be dedicated to, it share the eras. But we have different speakers focusing on different things. This year we've got Elisa Childers and she, like she did last year, we'll talk about apologetics. But from a new perspective this year we also will have Ginger Duggar Volo, who left a life of legalism to understand the true gospel. We'll have a health panel, how to biblically approach holistic health. We've got Shauna Holman and we've got Taylor Dukes on that. And then Katie Faust. You guys know and love Katie Faust. You know that she's going to be talking about child centered politics, ivf, reproductive technology, marriage, all of that. We are going to be led in worship by Francesca Battistelli and then yours truly will be there as well giving a speech. What am I going to talk about? I don't know. I never know until right before. But this, it's share the eras is different. It's not going to be a last minute preparation for me. It's going to be a new and unique and special message just for the attendees there. It's outside of Dallas, Texas, October 11th. Make sure that you get your tickets now because it's. This is a stadium with separate seats. It's not pews like it was last year. We can't cram people in. If you got a seat, you got a seat. If you don't, you don't. And we could run out. We're on the trajectory to do that actually. So make sure that you get your tickets now. Go to Share the arrows dot com. Get those tickets. Cannot wait to see you there. Share the arrows dot com. All right, let's talk about this. Or did ridiculousness. Let's talk about Meryl Streep being potentially tapped to play Aslan in the lion, the Witch in the Wardrobe, the Chronicles of Narnia. All right. I love C S Lewis. I don't think you can see. I don't. And I don't want to ask Nathan to change the camera too much because it might be hard to readjust, but right above my shoulder, right here. Maybe we can. Can we see it in the wide shot at all? Oh, he's. Oh, thank you so much. You are a hero. We've got CS Lewis, okay. Next to My Blue Bonnets. And We've got a C.S. lewis book up there. I love C.S. lewis. His works were absolutely formative in my faith and I'm just so thankful, especially for Mere Christianity and for Screw Tape Letters. Those were the two books I read junior year of high school that completely opened up a whole new intellectual Christian world for me. And I still am struck by the truths that I read in those books every time I read them. If you have not read Screwtape Letters and Mere Christianity, you have to read Those I just sent not only an ESV study Bible, but I sent Mere Christianity and Screwtape letters to a new Christian because I just think they're so important. They are not the end all, be all when it comes to, to Christian theology. I wouldn't even call them necessarily a primer on Christian theology, but they are good, especially mere Christianity. It lays like a really good basis for understanding that God exists and that Christianity is true. And of course, if you know CS Lewis, you he was an atheist and so he's coming from that skeptical scholarly position in all of his writings. And I just appreciate him so much. Every time I read C.S. lewis, I'm like, I know that, you know, some things are obviously very complex and he's 10 times smarter than I am, but I, I get it. I don't know just how he writes and how he speaks and how he explained things. It just tickles my brain. Something clicks and I just feel that I intuitively understand what he's talking about. And yet it's so layered that every time I read it, I find something new. So needless to say, the Chronicles of Narnia, especially the line the Witch and the Wardrobe, are very near and dear to me. Thankfully, my oldest child has inherited my love of reading. We have read through the lion, the Witch in the Wardrobe multiple times. She's not quite to that reading level yet herself. She's only five, but she has sat and listened to me and it's timeless. I mean, the word pictures that he draws are just amazing. I still cry when I read the scene spoilers of Aslan the Lion being slain and being tied up helpless like a sheep being led to the slaughter. And then the beautiful triumphant scene of Aslan coming back to life because the witch didn't understand what is called the deeper, deeper magic that was at play there. She forgot about it. It's just a really beautiful depiction of who Jesus is as the lion of Judah and his power. It's not an exact parallel by any means, but it is a really cool way to get your children and even get yourself just thinking about the Gospel in a new way. So this series and especially this book and all of CS Lewis's works, but they're really important to Christian history, the Christian tradition especially, just like our modern understanding of God and the Gospel. So that means in respect to Christianity, you need to get it right. Especially if you are someone like Greta Gerwig. Greta Gerwig is an Oscar winning actress or no, sorry, she is a director. It's Meryl Streep. Who's the Oscar winning actress? I just read that sentence incorrectly. So she is the director of movies like Barbie. Gerwig is a Unitarian Universalist. Okay, so she doesn't believe that. She doesn't believe in the deity of Christ. She doesn't believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and that no one comes to the Father except through him. John 14:6. She's not a Christian. She did say to time magazine in 2024 that she loved the books. She loved the adventure and the stillness, the wonder and the truth. It's a world I've lived in through my imagination for so long. I'm sorry, I think that you are disqualified, qualified though, from directing a series like this. She's directing this new adaptation, it's coming to Netflix and she clearly doesn't share the worldview of C.S. lewis. Now, is it possible to direct an adaptation even if you are a non Christian? It is possible, but you have to respect the underlying, undeniably Christian truths that are there. And one of those undeniable Christian truths is that Jesus was a man and that Aslan was a male lion to represent the lion of Judah, to represent Christ. And if we are going to negate that, if we are going to ignore that by having Meryl Streep, who of course is amazing, I'm a fan of her acting abilities. If we are going to ignore that, then that shows a profound disrespect not only of CS Lewis of this story, but also the Christian truth that it is meant to reflect. And so that's my problem with this. I mean, obviously Aslan is a male lion. There are multiple references throughout lion, the Witch and the wardrobe of him shaking his mane. And you just don't have the same, like, regalness. If I can say that in a female lion, because of course we know that lions are the king of the jungle. They have this kind of confidence that is respected even by the top of the food chain, the human race. And there is something to that. Again, there is a reason why Jesus is referred to as the lion of Judah and there is something so beautiful that the lion of Judah voluntarily became a lamb, like a sheep sent to the slaughter. And so if we're getting rid of that, if we're getting rid of the specificity of this story that is representative of the gospel, then to me, this whole thing is discredited. So I thought at first that this was not real. I saw it reported by some X account, but it didn't have a link. And I was like, this is rage bait. If you don't know what rage bait is, those are just posts that are put out there because they are trying to gain engagement. It could be called, like, engagement farming. They know people are going to be outraged. They know people are going to talk about it, but it's not even true. So I didn't comment on it. I didn't say anything about it. But then I saw more reputable sources picking it up and I was like, okay, I guess it's okay for me to talk about it now. So she directed Gerwig, directed Barbie, Little Women. And then it was reported by the Hollywood Reporter also that she would be involved in the Chronicles of Narnia. People talked about it then. I still didn't talk about it because I was like, maybe it's not true. But then Deadline reported on April 3 that Meryl Streep is being considered for this role. She has not been given an offer. Okay, let's make that clear. She has not yet been given an offer to play the role of Aslan, the Great lion, but confirmed she is in talks. Aslan is, you know, as I already said, the pivotal character in these books. CS Lewis said that he crafted Aslan as an allegorical representation of Jesus Christ and a 1954 letter to a child about the story line the Witch in the Wardrobe. He said Aslan is meant to represent what Christ might be like in another world. And if you don't already know. I know I kind of already referenced this, but Aslan sacrifices himself, himself on the stone table to save Edmund. Now, Edmund is the child who betrayed him, but he is. Aslan is sacrificing himself on his behalf. And then he rises again. He's voiced by Liam Neeson in the 2005-2010 film trilogy, which I think is a great option and makes sense. Meryl Streep makes no sense. Again, throughout the book, he is referenced as male. So it seems like it really wouldn't be that difficult to simply stay true to that. You would only not stay true to that if you were trying to make a theological and political statement about the patriarchy within Christianity or patriarchy within, you know, white British literary works. And you're disrupting that. And you are shattering glass ceilings by having Meryl Streep, who you know, has always been so oppressed because she's a woman, voice this character. That would be the only reason you're doing it. It's not because there are no men who are up to the task. Of course there are. It would be a very purposeful subversion and I think, blatant disrespect to Christianity. The film is set for theatrical IMAX release. I didn't even know we were still doing that. I didn't know that people were releasing films and you could go see it in imax. I have not been to a movie theater in a very long time. Thanksgiving 2026, followed by a Netflix debut on Christmas 2026. Okay, you have time, Greta Gerwig. You have time to change your mind on this. I mean, probably not very much time. I'm actually, now that I'm saying that, I'm actually kind of surprised that we're in the year 2025 and you're still making these decisions. I guess I just don't totally understand how long it takes to do these things. But let's not, okay, let's. Let's not pick Meryl Streep. Let's pick a man with a deep, booming voice. Let's keep Aslan a male lion. That's a part of the story. That's a central part of the story. You don't have to believe in the underlying truth of the allego, but don't rob the rest of us of that. Okay, let's pray for Greta Gerwig. Okay? Let's. I'm serious about this. Let's pray for her and all of the people working on this, that as they are digging into this story and what it really means and the allegory used, that they would understand the gospel, that they would be struck by the amazing reality that there was a perfect savior who died on the cross, who sacrificed himself on behalf of those who betrayed him, that maybe through this, like, her heart would be softened, that she would come to know the Lord, that she would be a Christian, and that we could actually see the beautiful redemption that is depicted through the story, through her own conversion. That's what we should pray. And we should also pray that through this adaptation, that people would dig more into CS Lewis, that they would dig more into the Bible and understand the gospel, that they would be drawn to the person of as or the character of Aslan as a representation of Jesus. So let's just pray that they get it right, because this really, really matters. And I'll just leave you with this quote from the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. If you have not read this yet, if your kids have not read this, go right now. Go get it. Get it on Amazon, get it at wherever. Go to your Christian bookstore, get it and read it. Read it yourself and read it with your Kids again, I cry. I'm like, my, like, throat. I get a lump in my throat when I'm reading this with my children because I'm just reminded, wow, God loves us so much. He loves us so much that he sent his son to die for us. Jesus loves us so much that he sacrificed himself on our behalf, taking on our punishment that we deserved just so we could be friends with God and be saved and live forever. And I didn't do anything to earn that. Just like Edmund did everything not to earn that sacrifice. We are Edmund. Oh, my goodness. Go read it. Go read it. Okay. And Greta, don't get this wrong. So here is a. Here's a quote from the book. Wrong will be right when Aslan comes in sight. At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more. When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death. And when he shakes his mane, we will have spring again. That doesn't really work for a female lion, by the way. So, again, the core of this part of this, a huge part of this is who Aslan actually is as a male lion. So let's just hope and pray that they change course. All right, we got to talk about a controversy. I haven't done this in a long time, talking about a reaction or controversy that my show caused. I mean, every episode that we put out there, of course there are going to be people angry at it. And that's just part of it. I don't enjoy that. Some people might be like, oh, you know, people just generate conflict for clicks. I did not think that what I'm about to talk about would cause conflict. I had no idea. That is actually never, ever, ever my goal, not my desire. I don't want that. I don't like that. It actually doesn't help me. I know people like to kind of dismiss people they disagree with by saying, oh, they're just saying that thing I disagree with because they want more attention or they want more money or whatever. Or maybe they just really believe it. Like, maybe they just said something that you disagree with that you really believe or that you are really curious about. And that is certainly the case when it comes to this next subject. And it's going to be controversial. Okay, it's going to be controversial. But apparently my little question just kicked a hornet's nest, and now we have to get into it because now claims are being made about me and the questions that I asked that are simply not true. And so we've got to shed light on them. Okay, I didn't start this. I will say, I did not start this conflict, but I am going to address it. But before we get into it, let me pause and tell you about our sponsor for the day. And that is Net Surprise Suite by Oracle, the number one cloud erp bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one fluid platform. Obviously there's a lot going on with the market right now. Maybe that makes you anxious about your business and anxious about your finances. Well, if you were a business owner, you don't want to be anxious about that. You want to be able to check your numbers, check your stats, your KPIs really easily. And the best way for you to do that is if you have one source of truth. If you've got one unified business management suite like you can get with netsuite by Oracle, then you can have the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. With real time insights and forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data. When you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you're spending less time looking backwards and more time on what's next. Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com Alli the guide is free to you at netsuite.com AllI so a few weeks ago I had Melissa Doherty on the show to talk about her new book. I actually have it right here still, so I'll promote it again. Happy Lies How a movement you probably never heard of shaped our self obsessed world. So we talked about the new age and New thought. Also how the prosperity gospel fits into that. We talked about the usual suspects, purveyors of the prosperity gospel that I have talked about many, many times on this show. Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Paula White. So many you guys, if you've been following me for any amount of time, you know I talk a good bit about the prosperity gospel. I wrote about it extensively in my first book and also how it intersects with the new age. That is part of what my first book is about too. You're not enough and that's okay. And I talked about how people like even Glennon Doyle and Rachel Hollis, these cult of self affirmation leaders who tell us to worship the God of self, how those are really intertwined. So that was part of our discussion. But we had one segment, one short segment of the discussion where I dared to ask a question about majority black churches. Not the majority of black churches, but majority black churches. Here's salt one. This seems to be especially prevalent in majority black churches. There's a Lot of prosperity preaching. But a lot of. As you're talking, I'm like, I've heard that a lot. You are divine. You are a queen. You are, you know, some. A goddess. Something special. And. Yes.
- [24:52]
Melissa Dougherty
Yeah.
- [24:52]
Ali Stuckey
I don't know. I don't know if you've ever talked about the roots of that or why that is.
- [24:56]
Melissa Dougherty
It's interesting you bring that up. That is a controversial question, especially today's political climate. But I guarantee there's a lot of people watching that are like, ali's not wrong. You know, there's something there. And I was reading Kate Bowler's book. Do you know who that is?
- [25:09]
Ali Stuckey
Yeah.
- [25:10]
Melissa Dougherty
And there's a whole section on this that she talks about with the black church and the prosperity gospel and all these other theologies that kind of entered into the black church. I mean, Carlton Pearson is one of them. Carlton Pearson was a Pentecostal word of faith preacher, Reverend Ike. And both of them were very off when it came to a lot of their teachings. That's like an origin there in that regard. I haven't looked too much into it, but you're not wrong.
- [25:41]
Ali Stuckey
Okay. So I had no idea that that was going to cause any controversy. I started getting some random messages on Instagram, though, from people who didn't follow me maybe a week or so after that episode came out, saying, basically, where do you get off on saying that the prosperity gospel is in the majority of black churches? That's what I kept hearing that you said the majority of black churches preach the prosperity gospel, which is not what I said, but I just ignored it. I didn't think anything of it, but I did. Usually when that happens, when I keep getting the same almost verbatim message over and over again from people who don't follow me, it means that someone fairly influential posted something about something I said, and that that's going around and that's causing people to message me, to find my page and message me about it. So I knew that was a possibility, but I didn't look into it. And then I kept getting messages about it. And then Melissa Doherty sent me a message saying, you know, that our little segments has really caused a scuffle. Like, if people are upset about this, and I didn't know where it started, but as soon as I heard that, I was like, I bet I know exactly who said something about it. So I went to this person's page, and I was immediately verified this was on X. Actually originally saw it on Facebook, but this is Pastor Eric Mason. Now, some of you might know him from his really good work on fatherhood, and he's got some other really good, like theological resources that he's written over the years. But he's also the author of Woke Church, and we'll get into that a little bit in a second. He's a pastor of Epiphany Fellowship Church in Philadelphia, and here's his post. I just watched a clip with two white women saying that the majority of black churches are prosperity churches and theologically unsound. Didn't say that. A black YouTuber. He's talking about someone named Corey Miner and I'll get to his video in a second. A black YouTuber that mainly posts critique videos. Agrees. What are your thoughts? Also give a list of biblically solid black churches and pastors below. Video Response Coming soon if you do an etymology of the prosperity movement, which Preach Damon that's handled did in our book on urban apologetics, you'd see that it began and was spread by whites for the last 100 years. This type of stuff makes me angry. Y'all pray for me because I get in the flesh and want to say unwholesome things. Yikes. What does that mean? What unwholesome things? I'm also kind of just like, this is an aside. I'm stuck on doing etymology. Do an etymology. That's like saying like do a philosophy. Etymology means like the study of a word and you can study the etymology of a word, like you could study the philosophy behind an idea. But I don't know what do an etymology means. That's just an aside. So Eric Mason, he made this video with a couple of guys responding to what we said. His video was titled Emergency Episode Our Majority Black Churches Preaching the Prosperity Gospel. He said, let me preface this by saying a few things. First of all, this is not a witch hunt. Second of all, this is not being divisive. He also says, I talked to Melissa. We had a pretty lengthy 45 minute discussion. She was pretty broken about the comment and repented for it and wanted to make things right with me. And then they go on to say no, that this claim or this question that I had was completely untrue, that my observation and concern was completely unfounded. It's not true. Whatever. I I don't think it's a witch hunt. Like, first of all, say Eric Mason can make whatever content he wants. He can respond to things I put out there. There are some people out there who would say anyone who disagrees with something they say publicly is being attacked. I'm not that person. I Don't feel attacked by people publicly disagreeing with things that I publicly say. People have a right to do that. And I can actually appreciate it when it's done in a respectful way. When he says, this is not divisive. Well, by pointing out the color of our skin, it. That is divisive. I mean, saying that the melanin count of the people who said it is what makes it part of what makes it controversial. Yeah. I mean, that is. You're purposely trying to draw lines there. Whereas I, despite what some of my critics are saying, have talked about the prosperity gospel in all different kinds of churches, led by all different kinds of teachers. A response that I keep hearing and that he said himself is that, what about this white teacher? What about that white teacher? Yeah, 99.9 of the time that I am talking about the prosperity gospel, I am talking about pastors who happen to be white. Like, just take two seconds to look at my repertoire of content that I've put out. Most of the people, I mean, including Andy Stanley, including pastors that I really like, I'm not afraid to talk about the, like, the controversies that they have gotten themselves into. Like, I really like Alistair Begg, I really liked Stephen Lawson and, and John Piper. I mean, all of these people, I've just kind of talked in a hopefully very respectful way about my disagreements with them. But yeah, 99.9 of the time these people happen to be white. And yet because I asked one question, I am being told that I singled out the black church. And this was like, people are saying this is a racist observation. Now, just to give you a little bit of context about who Eric Mason is, he did write this book called Woke Church. This full screen picture right here is from that book. I don't disagree with everything within the book. I think we agree on the fundamentals of the faith, hopefully. But I do just want to point out from this full screen that's in the book, like, what he considers in bad categories of theology or beliefs as a black person he considers bad. This, this statement. I view color blindness as a virtue. I don't think that systemic racism exists any longer. I believe blacks are to blame for our current condition. Those are all statements that he believes. That if you believe those things as a black person, that you are not. That you're not fully awake, that you are blind in some way, that you are asleep in some way, you're not fully woke to what the true gospel intersecting with black identity really is. And obviously that's problematic there. Christians who are fully awake to the reality of the world and reality of the gospel, who view colorblindness as a virtue, who don't think systemic racism exists any longer. And they might believe that black people actually have agency and responsibility for the things that happen to them and their situation. But that's the whole like, white fragility movement that was so popular in 2020 that if you disagree with this, it's because you're not fully awake, it's because you're asleep, you're deceived, you're fragile, whatever. And that's just not. It's not good logic, it's not good argumentation. And it just happens to be a silly, flimsy argument too, pertaining to the part where he said that Melissa DY reached out to him and apologized and was broken over it. I talked to Melissa about this privately and I wasn't going to share her thoughts publicly because it was a private conversation and But I will say that she was very annoyed by how Eric Mason was representing their conversation. She was connected through a good friend. She thought, okay, this might be a way to reconcile. Maybe we can better understand each other. She was simply trying to do the right thing and also honor their mutual friend by having a conversation with a brother in Christ about their apparent disagreement. But how he represented it, that she was repentant, that she was broken over it, that she apologized, she says is not true. And this is not just based on our private conversation, but what she said publicly too. She did say this on X and I just appreciated it. She said, hi everyone. It appears there's been a bit of a scuttle on how the conversation with Eric Mason and I went down. Yes, we did have a conversation. I'm thankful that we had that time to talk because I felt that addressing things privately was both a respectful and biblical approach. But it seems we definitely have a different interpretation of how this conversation went. I won't be responding to any comments here. I stand by the comments I said on Conserved Malin. A person's skin color doesn't determine whether they can know truth or call out terrible and heretical theology. And so that's what she said there. She says that she stands by her comments. So that means no, she wasn't broken over it. She didn't change, you know, her. Her mind on that. I don't know. I won't speak for her. Maybe she would change how she said it or how it went down. I'm not sure. But she how what he is doing is he is trying to say that she was contrite and therefore he is right. He is using that to try to verify, validate, substantiate his perspective. I wonder if he's still feeling in the flesh and wanting to say the unwholesome things after that. I don't know. I wasn't gonna say anything about all of that. When I saw his response video. When I saw his post, I, you know, I again, I knew exactly who had started the controversy. I was not surprised at all when I saw him say two white women. I saw, I saw him, I saw that kind of thing in 2020, okay? And Eric Mason, by the way, he's not some far left progressive, like I would say theologically, on really important things, he is, he's biblical. He's what I would call conservative theologically. But he is hoisted up by a lot of conservative evangelicals, a lot of mainstream conservative evangelicals, even after a lot of nonsense in 2020. And then we've got Anthony Bradley. Okay, this is when I was like, okay, I'm going to respond to this because this just kind of like kicked it off for me. And like, okay, well, I'm just gonna see, I'm just gonna dig further into this. So Anthony Bradley, he's an author, interdisciplinary and theology studies professor. He's also a research fellow at the Acton Institute. It's a non profit research organization. So he posted a video on X and the text above it, above the video, it's of Melissa and I talking on the show. The clip that I just played you, it says two white ladies. We have to say that two white ladies ask, why is the prosperity gospel so popular in the black church? Okay, so his caption on this video, who is this? First of all, he knows we've gone back and forth several times before he says, who is this? The utter nonsense of this is unreal. How on earth can you, with a straight suburban face, Suburban face. So it's okay to use kind of those derogatory statements, those kinds of euphemisms for a white person. I guarantee you that a white person, if a white person said that a black person had an urban face, oh my gosh. With a straight suburban face. Anthony Bradley, the professing Christian, says, alleged that most black churches are prosperity gospel churches. In a world of Joel Osteen, Paula White, Kenneth copeland, Joyce Meyer, etc. Please stop lying on black churches. I didn't say most black churches. I never said most black churches ever actually. And I've talked about all of those people multiple times, much more than I've talked about the black prosperity preachers like Creflo$. I don't think I've ever done an episode dedicated to him. It should be so obvious that he's a false teacher. But I've talked about the others many times now. Again, just to give you context for who Anthony Bradley is, what kind of critiques he levels against people. Just a couple weeks ago, he went after our girl, Megan Basham. Megan Basham tweeted about a director of the Presbyterian Church in America's missions program named Irwin Ince who had issued guidance that advised illegal immigrants on how to avoid ice. And then he had a racially segregated event for black worshipers only. And she called this out and said, this is not a good direction, which she's absolutely right. Anthony Bradley responded to what she said. A totally valid critique of pca, saying Megan Basham is the personification of low iq. Okay, whatever you think about Megan Basham, you know that's not true. Like, she's not dumb. Like, it doesn't matter if you disagree with her. She's obviously smart. Okay? Personification of low iq. This is so dumb. This is the same ignorance that asks, why is there a black church? Research shows that content. Listen. Listen to how below the belt this is. Research shows that content like hers is a sure sign of significant father issues. And then the next reply is a post a picture of four. Four books. And he says, top right, dot, dot, dot, while the title of the book in the top right of the picture is the Absent Father Effect on Daughters. Father Desire. Father Wounds. Yikes. Okay, Megan Basham, I know this for a fact from what she said publicly. And I also, like, we. You know, we have a. We have a friendship. We. We talk as well. And she doesn't have father issues. And by the way, I just want to say, if you do have father issues, like, that doesn't make you low iq, which is basically what he said. And Anthony Bradley has done so much work on the need for fathers. And, like, I won't get into his entire personal history, but a lot of this is just like, it's just projection, okay? But he has done good work on the need of fathers, and he's basically saying that low IQ is an indicator of not having a good relationship with your dad. So I just want to say out there, if you have suffered from fatherlessness, that does not make you dumb. That does not make you less than. That is not the reason for any mistakes that you have made. And I'm not saying Megan Basham has made mistakes, but that's what he's arguing here. And I just want you to know that, that like God is your father, he determines your worth and he has your destiny in his hand. So don't listen to people like this who are just so hateful that they can't even see that they are contradicting their own messages that they have tried to purvey. And Russell Taylor says, he says, Dr. Bradley, you genuinely confused me. You're one of the most insightful and encouraging voices I follow. Yet sometimes these insults and disrespect belittle yourself. You're so capable of engaging with people whom you disagreed on winsome way the insults seem out of character. I haven't really seen that winsomeness and disagreement from Anthony Bradley in a long time. Anthony Bradley did not like this very kind rebuttal. He said you should unfollow. Then he said, when I was an inward for when I was called an inward for seven years by people like Megan, no one came to my defense. And then he goes on and on, really, people like Megan because she's a conservative Christian, so she didn't do it. But people like her called you that and therefore you have to say that she has daddy issues because she said something that you disagree with. Okay, so this is who this person is. And by the way, I am talking about someone who is a professing Christian who has been platformed by Christians, even conservative Christians for his work. I mean, this is a guy who used to be like on Fox News talking about like the black community and the need for fathers and all of that. So I'm not sure totally what happened. He also told Samuel Say, another guest I've had on this show whose writings I really appreciate and have shared many times. Samuel say is from Ghana. By the way, Anthony Bradley said to Samuel say, this is what you say when you're not a part of the black community as a non black person and know nothing the history of our churches and origins. I guess that's a typo. So he's non black. Samuel say is non black who is from Ghana, who is literally actually African. Okay, so that's who this person is. Okay, I just want to read you some research though, about the prosperity gospel in majority black churches. Because there actually is a lot of data out there and I didn't realize how much data there was. But after I started digging into it, I realized that, wow, there's a lot on this. And when I was digging into this, I found an article in the Gospel Coalition by Trevin Wax, March 29, 2012 and it's titled the Black Church and the Black Community. And Trevin Wax is actually interviewing someone. Okay. And so Trevin asks this to the interviewee. How has the prosperity gospel's message of individual empowerment affected many black churches? Here's what the interviewee said. Sadly, the prosperity Gospel has taken the already individualistic, consumeristic American understanding of what it means to follow Christ to a new, destructive level. This is why we included a chapter on this movement. He's talking about a book that he wrote. Its theologically poisonous tentacles have found their way into many black churches, and it is now a major force in the black expression of Christianity in America, Latin America and Africa. Now, who said that? What. What quote was that? That was Anthony Bradley. Anthony Bradley said that. Anthony Bradley said in 2012, the quote that I just read for you, which is in exact alignment with what he apparently is disagreeing with in 2025. Something that I said, something that I asked. And so I posted a transcript of that and I said this you to Anthony Bradley, and he tried this whole semantic parsing out game of, well, you said most. I didn't say most. And I said many. And that's different. And you don't have the data to back it up. Okay, well, what data did you have to back it up? And how about I just cite you as my source next time? Maybe if I just say, instead of many or prevalent, I say a major force in black Christianity around the world. Maybe if I just quote you verbatim and use you as my source, since you say that you've done all of the research on the church, then, okay, then maybe, maybe I'll just do that next time. Maybe I'll do that. And if I did that, I guarantee, if I did that without even citing him, he would have still disagreed with this. Because it's a white. It's a white lady saying it. That's what it comes down to. I said almost the exact same thing as he said 12 years ago, 13 years ago, but I'm white. And he apparently believes that white people shouldn't say certain things. And that's what this comes down to, is that many believe, unfortunately, that you have to be a certain skin color to ask certain questions or say certain things. And I'm just telling you that that's not true, that white people do not need permission to say things or ask things. And Christians can be concerned with all different aspects and manifestations of false teaching, no matter the demographics of the churches that they are talking about. We don't need permission to that. We don't need to be invited into that conversation. We can just say it, okay? This is not 2020. We're not. That finger wagging and manipulation doesn't work around here. And I encourage all of you out there to take that same position. So let's look at some of the research quickly. According to a 2023 study of life by LifeWay of Protestant churchgoers, roughly 71% of Black American churchgoers report their church teaches aspects of the prosperity gospel. And if you need a definer of what prosperity gospel is, it's not just saying that, hey, you should steward your money well, or God may bless you financially, because both of those things are true. Or give generously. That's obviously true. The prosperity gospel teaches if you do this, if you pray this, if you declare this, if you give this money to me, the pastor, the leader of the church, the ministry leader, then God will bless you financially. He'll give you that raise, he'll give you that bag, he'll make sure that you are materially blessed. And in fact, if you are poor, if you haven't gotten that promotion, if you're not financially successful, if you are sick, and if you are depressed, it's because you don't have enough faith, you haven't given enough to the church, you haven't given enough to me. My ministry, people like this Kenneth Copeland, big purveyor of this, we see this a lot. Benny Hinn, as we've talked about several times. But also, yes, you've got Creflo Dollar and others like him who are preaching things like that. And obviously that's contradictory to Christianity. In this world, you will have trouble. But take heart, I have overcome the world. We are called to self denial. Money is not inherently bad. Being rich is not inherently bad. But making an idol of money and thinking that God is a genie that owes you something because of what you do, that's just a misunderstanding, a distortion of the gospel. So 71% of black Americans report themselves that something like that is being preached in their churches. According to a 2021 Pew Research study, roughly 60% of churchgoing Black Americans attend a majority black church. An additional 25% attend a multicultural church. According to a 2015 YouGov study that surveyed a thousand American adults who described themselves as born again or as evangelical. 45% of black Americans believe that prayer can make one wealthier, compared with 19% of all churchgoing Americans. Okay, on the question, is wealth a sign of God's favor? 9% of white, 34% of blacks and 24% of Hispanics said definitely or probably so. Of those surveyed, Black Christians are most likely to say that wealth is a sign of God's favor. From the Gospel Coalition article by Joe Carter. Black evangelicals even held more favorable opinions of prosperity preachers who were not black. That's also a point that I made a question that I asked of Melissa. Like so many of these white prosperity preachers have conger congregations that are largely black, which is interesting. They were okay. According to this survey, black Christians were more likely to have a very or somewhat favorable view of Joel Osteen. 51% of black Christians versus 22% of whites. 39% of Hispanics. Pat Robertson, 41% of blacks have a positive view compared to only 17% for whites. Benny Hinn, 23% positive view of Benny Hinn compared to 4% for whites. And Kenneth Copeland, 34% of black respondents had a positive view of him compared to only 8% for whites. Okay. No other factor in the survey, gender, age, political party identification or geographic region was as predictive of someone supported the prosperity gospel and prosperity preachers as race and ethnicity. Okay. We can link these studies in the description. A 2006 Pew Forum survey titled Spirit and Power A Ten Country Survey of Pentecostals explored religious beliefs and practices across various groups, including a specific focus on Pentecostals and charismatics. Among black Protestants, 66% agreed that God will grant material prosperities prosperity to believers with enough faith. 32% of white Protestants believed that. Okay, like that's a big gap. It's still too high. But you're talking 2/3 versus 1/3. Yeah, it is especially prevalent. That idea is especially prevalent, it seems, among many black Christians. Ryan Burch, researcher director at Faith Counts, which published data on Christians, they released this survey in 2012. To what extent do you read the Bible to learn about attaining health or healing? 53. Or let's see, only 6% of whites said to a great extent that's like why they read the Bible versus 19% of non whites. So that's not just black, that's all non whites. Or to learn about attaining wealth or prosperity. Basically 0% it looks like of white people read the Bible to learn about attaining wealth or prosperity. But about 12% to a great extent of non whites are reading the Bible to learn about attaining wealth or prosperity. So it does seem like ethnicity is a very important predictor in whether or not the likelihood of whether or not someone will be reading for and praying for prosperity gospel themes. He also posted Ryan Bird. She posted this on X. What factors predict a greater belief in prosperity gospel views? African Americans, he said, are on average score. They score two points higher on an eight point scale than the rest of the sample. That's holding factors like income, education, age, gender partisanship and church attendance constant. So you can see the graph that we put up right there for that. Again, that's from 2012. There's an article by a pastor in the Wall Street Journal. This pastor happens to be black. Pastor Soris. This is from October 1, 2010. It's titled Black Churches and the Prosper Gospel. He says Bishop T.D. jakes of the Potter's House in Dallas and Dr. Ivy Hilliard of the New Light Christian center in Houston have motivated many people to avoid the traps of thinking of themselves as permanent victims and to defy conventional stereotypes. The conventional or the prosperity gospel says that everyone can succeed financially regardless of their race or gender or class. It's effectual, effectively changed life expectations for millions of people. However, when leaders of this movement assert that God wants everyone to be wealthy and that richers are of the riches are the automatic outcome for all faithful believers, we should all be suspicious. He says this is all a justification for crass consumerism. He's talking about the problem of all of this, including Bishop Eddie Long in the black church. Okay, the New York Times. There was an article titled too many black churches preach the Gospel of greed by someone who also happens to be black. He said this in this article from 2015. We see the prosperity gospel's influence spreading nationally and internationally as televangelists and celebrity ministers with their mega churches preaches basic tenets in black America. This theology overtakes calls for economic empowerment. Freedom dreams are supplanted by the aspiration to wealth, a theology that suits a vision of capitalism that is devastating our communities and our country. Okay, the Christian Post, this is by Lily Kwan, but she's interviewing Dr. Robert M. Franklin, who also happens to be black. This is from 2007. The title of this article is Prosperity Gospel is the Greatest Threat to Black Churches. Franklin says, I am convinced that the single greatest threat to the historical legacy and core values of the contemporary black church tradition is posed by what is known as the prosecution prosperity Movement. Okay, so it's not just me. People have been saying this for a long time. Albert Mulder also had an article about this in 2010. There are people that have been asking this question, do I think that this only exists in the black church? If you want to call it that. I was careful to say majority black churches, because I think the black church can also just be a misnomer. It's not homogenous, just like the church itself is not homogeneous. And like, yes, there is unity because of our shared belief in the gospel of Christ. But different subsets in different cultures have the propensity to believe different kinds of false teaching. I have talked about all, all different kinds of things that I think women, and maybe in particular white women, have the propensity to believe or to be caught up in. I would say both of my books are kind of like for that demographic that is targeted by certain modes of. Certain modes of manipulation. But that, of course can include women of all different kinds of ethnic backgrounds too. So this is not a zeroing in, this is not a singling out. It was a question. I'm not apologetic for it in the slightest. The data backs up this observation, by the way. And if you care about the souls of people, if you care about the lives of people, if you care about the gospel, you should be saying yes in Amen. When anyone, especially someone with a platform, no matter the color of their skin or their quote unquote suburban face to white ladies, according to Eric Mason, that make him want to say quote unquote unwholesome things in his flesh, you should be rejoicing that this is something that is being discussed. Because if all of this gets even just one person to say, huh, I think my church preaches that that's not the real gospel. And I'm going to get out of that, then it will all be worth it. Okay, I just want to play you two clips. They're a little long, but I want to give credit to these two creators who shared the Erro Heroes and it. I don't think either of their videos were about me. I don't think that they were like, oh, let me come in and try to save Ali Stuckey. I don't think that they were trying to do that at all. I think they were just giving their perspective. They also happen to be black. And so I don't subscribe to the idea that you have to be a certain skin color to say certain things that are true. But since some people do, maybe you can listen to them. Corey Miner, that is the person that Eric Mason originally referenced in his Facebook group post. He did a whole video about this. It's 30 minutes long. You can go watch that whole thing. I'll play you a clip of it where he is giving his thoughts on this. And he is giving, he supplies a lot of receipts of this happening in predominantly black churches. So I'll play you some of this clip. It's not too. And he coming with the bag.
- [56:06]
Corey Miner
And he coming with the millions and he's coming with the blessing. So he coming with the bag. He'll be coming with the bag when he comes. He'll be coming with the bag when he comes.
- [56:21]
Ali Stuckey
He'll be coming with the bag.
- [56:23]
Corey Miner
He'll be coming with the bag. He'll be coming with the bag.
- [56:26]
April Chapman
How is it not embarrassing? How are you not. You know what I'm ashamed to be. I'm not saying you ought to be ashamed, but I don't want to be associated with these people. I don't want anyone, white, black, Hispanic or any otherwise to look at them and then look at me and say, hey, you know those people, those your people? That is, that as a Christian, I'm embarrassed for them to even pretend to name the name of Christ. I don't think these people are Christian. They can't be. Their, their God is their money.
- [56:55]
Corey Miner
That the Holy Ghost train you to ask for the right thing. Lord, I want a two story house. What is that? My house. Almost 25,000 square feet. You can get lost in there. I had to get some speakers in there so I can find my wife. I live in it, I drive it. I drive it, I live in it. I drove a Maybach last night. Phantom this morning. This morning. And I'm in a ghost tonight. In case you don't know what a phantom and a ghost is, that's Rolls Royces. But it give him glory. My boys will tell you I'll never hide nothing from the body of Christ. And I. I'm not scared of nobody. God did it. You better not mess with me.
- [57:51]
Ali Stuckey
Yes, sir.
- [57:53]
Corey Miner
I tell you so. You know it can happen.
- [57:56]
April Chapman
They brag about their wealth, they're unapologetic about their wealth. As a matter of fact, they'll come back and tell you that I was wrong for even worrying about how you would think about this prosperity gospel. No, I'm getting my money and I even want my family to get their money too.
- [58:09]
Eric Mason
I called my son, I said, listen, go find that Rolls Royce.
- [58:12]
Ali Stuckey
He said, how?
- [58:13]
Eric Mason
I said, go find it. I don't care what you got to do. Go around the nation in every state you got to. But you find that Rolls Royce. That was God's love that he was trying to show on me. And I let people bondage talking me out. And that was the year I got free from people, free from colored folks, free from church folks. I Got free from white folk. I got free from everybody. Praise God.
- [58:33]
Ali Stuckey
Hallelujah. Hallelujah.
- [58:37]
Eric Mason
My God wants to bless you.
- [58:43]
Ali Stuckey
I'm sorry you don't want. Want to receive it. I apologize that you hate the prosperity gospel.
- [58:48]
April Chapman
How do you say that? How do you say that to a bunch of people who, you know, the majority of your congregation is probably struggling financially, but you're talking about your son to go get his Rolls Royce. We know you got him.
- [59:00]
Ali Stuckey
Yeah. And I know somehow after listening to all this, people are going to be like, well, what about. What about. What about this white preacher? Yeah, I know. I talk about them all the time. It's a problem. It's a huge problem. Prosperity gospel is a huge problem. We're exporting it also to poor countries. It's terrible. But, yeah, as we just looked at the data, unfortunately, this is more prevalent in majority black and majority Hispanic churches, and it's very sad. Okay, we'll end on this. I'll say a little bit after, but my girl April Chapman had a great video on this as well, and here's part of her take 3.
- [59:35]
Anthony Bradley
Instead of evaluating Ali Beth and Melissa's words against scripture, they immediately defaulted to racial solidarity. As if theological critique is only valid when it comes from someone who looks like us. That's not biblical unity. That's tribalism. That's tribalism that has no place in the body of Christ and is sinful. And what's worse, if you look at this thread, in an effort to defend the black church so hard, just creating this biblically sound expression that don't really exist in the vibrato, like they was talking about it in an effort to defend the black church from the white woman's observations, some of the critics ended up defending the prosperity gospel and the false doctrines that are actually leading people astray. Like, do you see how backwards that is? They didn't say she's wrong because here's what scripture teaches. Instead, they said, she's white, so she has no right to say this. Now, they didn't say this in so many words, but why else all the backlash in the hoopla over a statement of fact? Last time I checked, y'all, Jesus did not die for our skin color. He died to redeem sinners from every tribe, tongue, people, nation, and people grew. And so if we truly believed in the unity of the body of Christ, then we should have welcomed the biblical correction and the critique, no matter who it comes from. But if. If the prosperity gospel is a distortion of the true gospel, and it is, then we should be calling it out, not defending it or explaining in a way or making it up that oh no, no, no, our churches are sound when you know that they're not just because you feel some sort of way about who said it. That's not how. That's not how we do apologetics. It's really not this whole controversy. It is a clear example of how this ethnic narcissism and the racial identity politics has corrupted biblical discernment. When a biblically sound pastor can cause division from a Facebook post just because two white women made a statement of observable fact about the ethnic expression of the black church, you are demonstrating your loyalty is to your race and your culture versus your identities to be hidden in Christ.
- [62:06]
Ali Stuckey
Some points to consider, some things to consider. You know, all of this kind of reminds me of when I said that Matthew 25 is referencing persecuted Christians and Russell Moore decided to imply that I'm a Nazi in the pages of Christianity Today. And yet where else did I find that arguing argument being made by tons of scholars throughout history, but in the pages of Christianity Today just a few years earlier? It's just that they don't like who is saying it or who is asking it. So I just wanted to offer some some clarity on all of that. Last thing before we head out for the day. Please subscribe to Blaze tv. It is how you can support us. We are dealing with all kinds of shenanigans when it comes to YouTube, when it comes to Apple, when it comes to these major platforms to make sure that we are treated fairly. We have to do a lot of things behind the scenes just to make sure that our content is published and seen and you never know what's going to happen. If you want to make sure that you can always find us at Blaze TV and find content that we are not sharing in front of the paywall content just for our subscribers, then subscribe to Blaze TV. You can go to blazetv.com alli when you do, you can get a discount on your subscription. You get access to all of the exclusive, exclusive content that's made by Blaze TV subs or Blaze TV creators rather. And for those of you who have already subscribed, thank you so much. I appreciate you. All right, we'll be back here tomorrow.