Podcast Title: Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Host/Author: Blaze Podcast Network
Episode: Ep 1192 | Why Are Women Obsessed with True Crime? | Guest: Andrew Klavan
Release Date: May 20, 2025

Introduction to the Conversation

In Episode 1192 of Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey, host Allie Beth Stuckey engages in a profound discussion with author and commentator Andrew Klavan. The episode delves into the intriguing question: "Why are women obsessed with true crime?" Klavan brings his expertise from his book, The Kingdom of Cain, to explore how fascination with darkness and depravity can illuminate the human condition and point towards deeper truths and goodness.

Understanding the Kingdom of Cain

Allie Beth Stuckey (A) initiates the conversation by seeking Klavan's explanation of his concept, the "Kingdom of Cain."

Klavan (B) defines the Kingdom of Cain as a metaphorical representation of a fallen world teeming with inherent evil. He references C.S. Lewis, stating,

“...we’re not living in most of us, I hope, surround us ourselves with nice people. But when you look out in the broader picture, there's evil kind of baked into the system of the world.”
(02:41)

He emphasizes that this kingdom is contrary to God's kingdom, embodying a world where moral depravity is systemic.

Theological Reflections on Evil and Redemption

Allie Beth connects her thoughts on biblical narratives to Klavan's framework:

“Mary birthing Jesus redeemed so much from the sin that we see starting with Eve. And I was thinking about how Cain killed Abel... It's really beautiful.”
(04:11)

Klavan concurs, elaborating on how the initial murder by Cain sets a precedent for humanity's ongoing struggle between good and evil:

“The envy, the struggle between good and evil, the struggle between those who are acceptable to God and those who think they can become acceptable to God by removing other people...”
(03:09)

He further explains that Jesus serves as a redemptive figure, the "second Adam," offering a pathway out of this cyclical battle inherent in the Kingdom of Cain.

Personal Testimony and Journey to Faith

Klavan shares his personal journey from atheism to faith, highlighting pivotal moments influenced by his confrontation with literature depicting profound evil.

At 19, reading Dostoevsky’s Crime and Punishment catalyzed his realization of absolute moral truths:

“There is no planet where this could be good... that kind of prow of my soul was turned in the direction of God.”
(06:23)

Later, the philosophies of the Marquis de Sade challenged his atheistic beliefs, leading him to reject the notion that morality is subjective or nonexistent without God:

“The only leap of faith I ever took in my long, long journey to faith was to believe that some things are good and some things are bad.”
(09:54)

Klavan describes his gradual transition through prayer and the eventual acceptance of baptism as a culmination of his logical reasoning and personal experiences, despite familial and societal challenges.

The Intersection of True Crime and Artistic Expression

Allie Beth steers the conversation towards the modern obsession with true crime, particularly among women, and its parallels with classical literature.

Klavan explains that true crime resonates because it encapsulates absolute evil, providing a stark contrast to inherent goodness:

“Murder is the place where everybody says, yes, that is evil.”
(18:06)

He draws parallels to masterpieces like Macbeth and Crime and Punishment, asserting that while these works contain dark themes, they transform them into profound artistic expressions that reflect a deeper moral order.

Philosophical and Cultural Implications

The discussion shifts to the current state of American religious and moral landscapes. Klavan observes a shift away from moral relativism towards a revival of faith among intellectual elites:

“Science shows us that consciousness actually comes before matter, spirit comes before matter.”
(31:37)

He argues that the prevailing materialist worldview is giving way as more evidence emerges suggesting a spiritual underpinning to existence. This shift, he believes, will lead to a resurgence in belief and a rejection of divisive and harmful ideologies.

Navigating Modern Moral Complexities

Allie Beth raises concerns about the media’s portrayal of morality, referencing CNN’s sympathetic coverage of cartel members and controversial political figures. She questions how society reconciles conflicting definitions of good and evil.

Klavan responds by highlighting the importance of a tragic sensibility inherent in Christianity, which acknowledges the world's brokenness while offering a path to redemption:

“Our faith makes us strong, not fragile. Our faith makes us indestructible, not breakable.”
(37:02)

He critiques the modern Christian approach that often lacks depth, advocating for a faith that embraces the complexities and tragedies of the world rather than seeking a simplistic, utopian ideal.

Art as a Medium for Confronting Darkness

In exploring the role of art, Klavan emphasizes that true art does not shy away from darkness but instead confronts it to reveal deeper truths and beauty:

“If a man, if a mere man, can take marble and render something beautiful out of such tragedy and such despair, what can God not make out of the marble of eternity, of this world?”
(43:46)

He cites Michelangelo’s Pieta as a quintessential example of beauty born from tragedy, reinforcing the idea that art can reflect the divine transformation of suffering into something transcendent.

Conclusion and Takeaways

As the episode concludes, Klavan encourages Christians to embrace a more resilient and profound faith that acknowledges and confronts the world's darkness. He advocates for the arts as a vital conduit for understanding and expressing the interplay between evil and divine grace.

Allie Beth Stuckey wraps up the conversation by expressing gratitude for Klavan’s insights and urging listeners to engage with his work, particularly The Kingdom of Cain, to gain a deeper understanding of the themes discussed.

Notable Quotes

• Klavan: “There is no planet where this could be good... that kind of prow of my soul was turned in the direction of God.”
  (06:23)

• Klavan: “Murder is the place where everybody says, yes, that is evil.”
  (18:06)

• Klavan: “Science shows us that consciousness actually comes before matter, spirit comes before matter.”
  (31:37)

• Klavan: “Our faith makes us strong, not fragile. Our faith makes us indestructible, not breakable.”
  (37:02)

• Klavan: “If a man, if a mere man, can take marble and render something beautiful out of such tragedy and such despair, what can God not make out of the marble of eternity, of this world?”
  (43:46)

Final Thoughts

Episode 1192 of Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey offers a compelling exploration of humanity’s fascination with true crime through a theological lens. Andrew Klavan's insights bridge the gap between darkness and light, illustrating how confronting evil can lead to a deeper appreciation of goodness and divine truth. This episode is a must-listen for those interested in understanding the spiritual dimensions of true crime and the enduring struggle between good and evil.