Ep 1207 | Therapy Whistleblower Exposes Forced Sexual Rituals at Catholic University | Naomi Epps Best

Summary

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey – Episode 1207 Summary

Title: Therapy Whistleblower Exposes Forced Sexual Rituals at Catholic University | Naomi Epps Best
Host: Allie Beth Stuckey, Blaze Podcast Network
Release Date: June 19, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 1207 of Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey, host Allie Beth Stuckey engages in a poignant and revealing conversation with Naomi Epps Best, a Masters student in Marriage and Family Counseling at Santa Clara University—a Catholic institution in California. Naomi courageously shares her harrowing experiences with disturbing sexual content embedded within her required coursework, shedding light on systemic issues within therapy education programs.

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Naomi’s Background and Faith Journey

Naomi begins by introducing herself as a mom, wife, and dedicated therapy student. Her journey to Christianity was profoundly influenced by listening to Relatable, where she first encountered the gospel in 2019. This newfound faith provided her with spiritual nourishment and psychological relief from previously overwhelming anxiety and existential dread.

"[...] listening to Relatable [...] I bought a Bible, and that's the first time I had held a Bible."
— Naomi (02:39)

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Encountering Disturbing Course Content

Naomi discusses her enrollment in a required course titled Human Sexuality, essential for her graduation and licensure as a marriage and family therapist in California. Upon reviewing the syllabus in Summer 2024, she was alarmed by the promotion of sadomasochistic erotica, which she found morally and ethically repugnant.

"Sadomasochism is folks getting pleasure off of inflicting pain on another person."
— Naomi (04:04)

The course required students to engage with and even produce content that Naomi equated to sexual harassment and violence, such as writing a comprehensive sexual autobiography and reading erotica that depicted non-consensual acts.

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Challenging Institutional Policies and Seeking Accommodations

Naomi's objections to the course content led her to seek accommodations from the university. Initially, she requested to withdraw from the class or complete it remotely, similar to accommodations provided to Muslim students. Her pleas were met with resistance, and instead of granting her request, the administration insisted she either drop the course or face being forcibly withdrawn.

"The chair said that Muslim students had been given the accommodation to take the course remotely, but they still had to complete the comprehensive student sexual autobiography."
— Naomi (13:45)

Her attempts to voice her concerns culminated in writing an op-ed for The Wall Street Journal, bringing public attention to the unethical practices within the course.

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Facing Professional Repercussions and Public Exposure

Following the publication of her op-ed on June 7th, Naomi faced severe backlash from her peers and supervisors. She was summoned to a "struggle meeting" where colleagues labeled her as a threat to the profession. Instead of receiving support, Naomi encountered character attacks and was ultimately dismissed from her internship position at a nonprofit organization.

"Instead of compassion, understanding nothing, I'm harmful by saying that."
— Naomi (37:05)

Her dismissal highlighted a broader issue of ideological capture within the field of therapy, where dissenting voices are marginalized or silenced to maintain prevailing progressive agendas.

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Institutional Defenses and Naomi’s Refutation

Santa Clara University responded to Naomi’s allegations by asserting that the course met state licensure requirements and dismissed her claims as exaggerated. They offered alternative pathways to fulfill the coursework, such as independent studies or transferring credits to other institutions. Naomi refuted these claims, emphasizing that the nature of the assignments—like the sexual autobiography—was inherently coercive and violated ethical standards.

"But I was asked to complete an 8 to 10 page comprehensive sexual autobiography for a grade."
— Naomi (52:17)

Her insistence on the unethical nature of the coursework underscores the tension between institutional policies and individual moral convictions.

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Broader Implications for the Therapy Profession

Naomi's experience is not isolated. She references ongoing concerns about ideological conformity within therapy accreditation bodies like CACREP, which she describes as being ideologically captured and prioritizing financial incentives over ethical education. This systemic issue threatens the integrity of mental health professions, potentially compromising the quality of care provided to clients.

"This field is actually on the brink of collapse and it is happening slowly and then all at once."
— Naomi (57:00)

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Support and Moving Forward

Despite the immense challenges, Naomi remains steadfast in her mission to advocate for ethical reforms within therapy education. She continues her studies with support from her family and seeks to raise awareness through writing and public speaking, urging others within the profession to uphold integrity and critical thinking.

"People are allowed to exist with diverse worldviews. It's time to stand up for our right to think critically."
— Naomi (60:48)

Allie Beth Stuckey provides unwavering support throughout the episode, encouraging Naomi and listeners to rally behind her cause and share her message widely.

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Conclusion

Episode 1207 serves as a critical exposé on the ethical failings within therapy education at Santa Clara University, highlighting broader systemic issues that may affect mental health professions nationwide. Naomi Epps Best's bravery in speaking out not only illuminates personal and institutional misconduct but also calls for a collective reassessment of the values and practices that underpin therapeutic training programs.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Every individual is made in the image of God." — Naomi (07:50)

• "It's shocking. And I wrote a response to, to this, to their PR statement [...] And they have such disrespect for their fellows and their alumni." — Naomi (45:20)

• "This is insane. It needs to be fixed." — Naomi (56:03)

• "You don't have to submit. You don't have to submit. It's a choice that you are making." — Allie Beth Stuckey (42:37)

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This episode not only sheds light on urgent issues within a specific academic program but also serves as a rallying cry for integrity, ethical standards, and the importance of diverse worldviews in shaping effective and compassionate therapists.

Transcript

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[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Best is a student at Santa Clara University, a Catholic university in California where she is receiving her Masters in Marriage and Family Counseling. She is now sounding the alarm about the very disturbing, disturbing sexual content in the classes that she is required to take to graduate. She is telling her story to us today and the consequences she has had to endure for speaking up about this. She is a related gal. She is a fellow Christian and so don't just listen to or watch this story, but rally around her and share her arrows. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Olive Olive is helping make America healthy again by by showing you what is really in your food. Download the Olive App today at the App Store. Naomi, thanks so much for taking the time to join me. If you could first just tell us who you are.

[Naomi]

Yeah, so I'm a mom, I'm a wife. That's most important. And I am also a therapy student. So. So I go to Santa Clara University, which is a Catholic school and I am training to become a therapist.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And before we get into your story, I want to hear a little bit more about you. I know you're a Christian, but how did you become a Christian?

[Naomi]

By listening to Relatable. I'm serious. I actually in 2019, I think it was 2019, I heard the gospel for the first time from you. And I bought a Bible, and that's the first time I had held a Bible.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Wow. In 2019. And what has the journey looked like since then?

[Naomi]

I mean, it's been great. I think coming to faith has been so spiritually nourishing and also psychologically helpful for me.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

I was living with no faith, and it gave me anxiety, to be honest. I. I felt. Felt this, like, existential dread and lack of meaning in the world and my purpose and fear. A lot of fear and confusion about what's going on in the world and having a relationship with God and, you know, or even if folks just want to call it a higher power, because I'm speaking to secular people, too. That's my background. Having that sense of faith is so nourishing.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And I'm guessing that your faith had something to do with your issue with what was going on at your university. What is going on at your university, Santa Clara.

[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And so tell us about that, what went down and why you decided to speak up about it.

[Naomi]

Right. Yeah. So one of the final classes I have to do to graduate is called Human sexuality, and that is a requirement for marriage and family therapists in California to have some education on human sexuality. But when I first enrolled in this course in summer of 2024, I dug into the syllabus, and I was shocked by the. The sexual ethic that was being not just presented, but promoted. I immediately discovered sadomasochistic erotica. So for those who don't know what that is, sadomasochism is folks getting pleasure off of inflicting pain on another person. And then some folks receive, you know, drive pleasure from being hurt. Um, so this woman, it was a marital dispute between a husband and wife, and she got upset, so she took off her collar.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And this is in a book that you were required to read?

[Naomi]

That's correct.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And of course, that was required to graduate.

[Naomi]

Yep. Yeah. So she took off her collar, which is a symbol of submission and terms of agreement or something in this culture, and she was punished with violent gang rape. I'll call it rape, because she was crying. And, you know, I. To me, if there is a terms of service and then you take off your collar, it seems like the terms of service no longer apply.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. I don't know how it works, saying as a punishment for that, her husband arranged for her to be gang raped. And this was a lesson or an. Like an idea, a concept, a story, a firsthand account. Right. That you were reading in a book and it was not just a clinical description. It was like a titillating description.

[Naomi]

Oh, yeah. She goes, oh, and I presented my this way and my that way. Sorry, Holly.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Okay, but I know that you're just showing like this is the kind of pornography that you were being taught in class. And as a person, but also as a Christian, you took issue with this, right?

[Naomi]

Yes. I mean, having to affirm non judgmentally folks being gratified by inflicting violence upon another person offends how I see the dignity of the human soul.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. And. And they said, well, you might see this in therapy one day. So you're inoculating yourself. That's the word they use.

[Naomi]

Yeah. The chair said that this is an inoculation to sexual content that we might one day come across. And I'm thinking to myself, if a, if a client comes in and they're describing that they're engaging in these practices, that's one thing. It's another thing to read titillating BDSM erotica.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Okay. So it. They're saying if you have a couple that you are talking to that is into that kind of thing, the submissive dominant wearing collars, gang rape, like, you need to be prepared for that. So you don't look shocked in front of the couple that is coming to therapy for that.

[Naomi]

Presumably that's the Steel man argument for this curriculum.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Okay.

[Naomi]

What I try to tell the, the program over the course of almost a year is that I, I understand that there is a wide breadth of human sexual behavior. And yes, it'll be important for me to be able to listen as a therapist, if somebody comes to me and says that they are partaking in this, in these practices, it does not require me to engage in the reading of erotica that is meant to titillate. And also I don't have to affirm BDSM uncritically as a therapist.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

And there's a, a big push in therapy programs right now to affirm and accept and suspend judgment for anything sexually as long as there is legal consent. And I just reject that. That is the proper way to do therapy. Not judging somebody is important. Right. Every individual is made in the image of God. And if somebody is partaking in a particular practice, that does not make them less valuable as a human being.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Right.

[Naomi]

But they are asking me to suspend.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Discernment and to suspend your value system. And in this case, I mean, we're talking about, we're talking about rape. And so I'm. This is where, like the consent based model for morality or the consent only based model for morality is really slippery because they're presenting you with this situation that they are saying is on the spectrum of normal. You might run into this and you should have no shock, you should have no judgment whatsoever. But that woman isn't technically, I mean, she's not consenting. I guess they could say, well, she consented at some point to being submissive. And that was part of the rule book. I mean, that's crazy though. That's crazy. And that's why it's not enough to just say, well, technically she consented. It's still wrong and violative and probably illegal.

[Naomi]

Just because somebody gives legal consent does not make that psychologically healthy.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Right. And that's part of your job, right?

[Naomi]

That is part of my job, presumably to help a client identify what is healthy for them. And that has been a gaping hole in my education. I am not provided an education in how to discuss these issues with clients.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

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[Naomi]

Part of the reason I chose to Go to a Catholic university is because I thought that there would be tolerance for the Christian worldview.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

That is not the experience that I've had.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

No, not at all. Okay, so you had this course that highlighted bdsm. Was that the first thing that you were introduced to that was that sexually explicit that made you stop and say, I don't want to participate in this?

[Naomi]

I was reading the syllabus and I saw where the content was going and I saw the ethos of the curriculum, which is admittedly something I was concerned about because this is a cultural issue. And I'm. I'm not naive to the fact that therapy culture is extremely progressive. And so I was concerned that the. The consent only based ethic was going to be the prevailing norm.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Okay, so this was this past year.

[Naomi]

Yeah. This was in summer. Okay, this was in summer. So I stayed in that class for all of two classes because the second class I was put into a group of people, four people, one of whom was a man. And we were asked to discuss our masturbation. And I said no.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

Also in that class, the final Exam was an 8 to 10 page comprehensive sexual autobiography. So they were asking us to answer questions like, when did we first start masturbating? What are key sexual moments in our history? Detail our sexual past and present? What are our erotic goals for the future? And how will we achieve those?

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Oh, my gosh.

[Naomi]

So when I read that, I said, no, I'm not writing my, my sexual inventory for anybody to read. So I tried to get an accommodation and I was denied. The chair said that this, this requirement has been in place since the 1980s, and this is a violation of the American Psychological Association's ethical codes, ethics code. 7.04 bars. Psychologists from requiring students to self disclose particularly sexually.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Wow. And so this was a required course? Yes. These were required assignments. This was a required book that you were reading. And when you went to the chair and you asked, hey, can. Is there any way that I can not be a part of this? Because why? It violates your conscience and as you said, it violates that code.

[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And you were met with. This is how it's always been.

[Naomi]

She said that Muslim students had been given the accommodation to take the course remotely, but they still had to complete the comprehensive student sexual autobiography. Read the erotica. And as. As well, there was a. A pornographic illustration guide that was openly hostile to the Christian faith. It was written, quote, as revenge for my Catholic upbringing, something like that. In this, there were just crude illustrations of all sorts of sex acts. With however many number of people. And I didn't want to read that. I think that it is probably illegal to force me to consume pornography.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. Especially when it's just not relevant. Not that it would ever be relevant. I know, but I mean, we're talking about marriage and family therapy. There is no, you know, something that you said, I thought is an important point here is that it's one thing to learn about things in a clinical setting or something that is written scientifically, objectively, clinically. But you're saying that the materials that you had to read were purposefully titillating.

[Naomi]

Yes.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Right, that's right. So it was supposed to be turning people on and re. I mean, this is what pornography does. It rewires your brain to desire certain things. And so that's the kind of content that you were being forced to read inoculated with. Yeah.

[Naomi]

And have we not learned that people don't like forced inoculations?

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah, exactly. And I would just think about those, though, that don't have your same value system. Who did start reading this and who knows, like, what dark path of pornography this puts people down? And I have a hard time believing that the Muslim students were reading this stuff and participating in an autobiography, talking about their sexual journey and their erotic goals.

[Naomi]

And if so, and if they were mandated to do that, that's highly concerning.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Right, right. So you wrote about this in the Wall Street Journal.

[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

This happened last summer. Summer of. And you wrote an op ed detailing everything that went on that you weren't able to get an accommodation. Right. They basically said, no, you have to take this course. You have to complete this course. You decided to go public with it. Tell me about making that decision.

[Naomi]

Yeah, so I. When I, like I said, this is a required course to graduate. So I once I dropped the course after being asked to talk about my masturbation. I re enrolled a couple times. I tried to get an accommodation. Eventually, this different professor with a new syllabus, I reached out to him and I said, hi, Muslim students have been given the accommodation to do this course remotely. I would like to have that accommodation, please. Something to that effect.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

And instead of granting the equal accommodation, he scheduled a zoom meeting with me and he promised a atmosphere of professionalism and no required sexual disclosure. Okay, that was a mistake.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Okay, so you believed him?

[Naomi]

I believed him, yeah. I believed him. And I agreed to go in person. And I tried to keep my head down and get through it, but the events that took place in that class were so shocking. We were asked to write Things down that we dislike about our genitals or breasts that anonymously. Don't worry, it's anonymous. But we were to write it down. And then the professor gathered them up, shuffled them up, redistributed them, and then we read them out loud in the class.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

So that's not really anonymous. Or, or you, like, did you have to mix and match? Like, did you have to read someone else's or were you reading. Oh, that's right.

[Naomi]

No, I was reading somebody else's. So I. I read something that somebody else disliked about their genitals.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

I mean, the teachers just sound like perverts and they're forcing their students to play along in their fetishes. That's what it sounds like.

[Naomi]

I'm not going to call anybody a pervert. But you can.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

I mean, I'm just saying. I'm just deducing some things here.

[Naomi]

I know, I know. So there was that. There was also this guest psychologist came in and said, quote, only trans women have that can blow up the world.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Oh, gosh, sorry. No, I mean, if they said it and you were forced to hear it.

[Naomi]

Yeah, I'm just reporting what's going on in therapy classrooms. People are going to come at me and say, Say that I'm a culture warrior. I was just trying to get my degree to become a therapist. And I think that the fact that this is a elite education at a Catholic school is relevant to the public.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

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[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

As you said, you re enrolled. You said, it's going to be fine. What did you do when you were met with those assignments that you didn't agree with?

[Naomi]

Well, it. I kept my head down until this final class where we were shown a sex dungeon tour. So a female influencer was brought into a sex. A commercial sex dungeon. She was flawed, dogged, gagged, wrapped in plastic, had a knife drug across her upper chest area, made to jump up and down to humiliate herself, put in a guillotine. And watching somebody derive sexual gratification by humiliating and harming another individual was so disturbing to me that. I mean, honestly, it kind of was. Yes. At the end of the video, the professor goes, so what do you think? Who wants to try it? And at that point, I just stood up and I said this. No, I'm not doing this anymore.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Are you the only one standing up?

[Naomi]

Yes. Yes.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Did you ever talk to any fellow students who felt the same way as you?

[Naomi]

One reached out to me, actually, one did. He DM'd me on Instagram and he said something to the effect of, I'm so sorry that you had an emotional reaction, because I did not ashamed of that. And, you know, I think that the way that he presented this material was inappropriate. So that's one person.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Okay. Some kind of solidarity or sympathy. Solidarity. Yeah.

[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Just sorry that you feel that way.

[Naomi]

Exactly. So I walked out of the class and I emailed the professor or. Sorry, no, I emailed the. The chair and the dean what had happened. I detailed everything that had just gone on, and I said, I'm not going back to this class. I would like the remote accommodation that Muslim students were given. Please, Please.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

And they said, no, drop the class or we'll drop it for you.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Wow. And I said, so they gave these Muslim women an accommodation, but not the Christian woman?

[Naomi]

Yeah, apparently. Apparently. So I asked for a refund, and the chair said, the fact that you're expecting a refund is astonishing. Like, wow, that's astonishing. I. I also have things to share that are astonishing. That just happened. I'm astonished.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yes.

[Naomi]

So meanwhile, all of this is happening. I've been deeply concerned about ideological capture in therapy, and I've been writing a book on the side during my studies. Part of that research has been reaching out to people who have been raising these concerns. So Dr. Sally Satel, who I know you know, is a psychiatrist, and she has been writing about ideological capture in psychiatry. For 20 years. So when I saw her writing, I was so relieved and I reached out to her and bless her heart, she took me under her wing and said, naomi, this is important. You need to write it down.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

And so I wrote it down. I submitted it to the Wall Street Journal, and they ran the story. And it's amazing. It is. I'm super grateful, because I'm not. This isn't just a student grievance. This is relevant to everybody who trusts therapists implicitly with their psyche, with their children's psyche. I mean, this is the training that we're getting.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. And it's been going on for a while. Yeah. This is not just like in the past few years.

[Naomi]

Exactly. Okay. And I'm. I'm late to the party. I want to say I am standing on shoulders of people who have been ringing the alarm bells and trying to get this message out. I think that this op ed struck a nerve because of the. Probably because of the sexual nature of it.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

Frankly. And it's just hard to believe. Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

It's hard to believe. Even in California, even at a Jesuit university. It's just hard to believe that there wouldn't be any sense of embarrassment or shame by these professors.

[Naomi]

There's no shame in that.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

It's just completely, unapologetically showing people BDSM porn in class and somehow trying to loosely justify it by saying, well, one day maybe a client of yours could be into this.

[Naomi]

Right.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

You need to know about it now.

[Naomi]

Yeah. And I do want to say that the person was clothed until they were wrapped bare in plastic. Um, but it doesn't matter. It's the. The inoculation is to watching people harm one another and get off on it.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. My goodness. Okay. So when you asked again for this accommodation a second time, you were given a one time exception that you can withdraw and pay out of pocket for continuing education and add extra units to graduate without a tuition refund.

[Naomi]

Correct.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

So that was the only recourse that you were given. And what did you do at that point?

[Naomi]

Yeah, I took the continuing education course. And Human sexuality I've completed. That is totally reasonable. There's nothing, nothing of this nature. And that's one thing that the. The university keeps stating. This is standard across programs. 1. I don't think that it is because it violates ethical codes and the content is so egregious and over the top. If it is true that this is going on all over the country, that's even worse.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. It wasn't just the sexual Content, though that was disturbing. You were also required to take a course called Multicultural Counseling. Tell me about that.

[Naomi]

Yeah, so multicultural counseling. The. The goal of the course is to competency in speaking to people of diverse backgrounds. Great. On board in the class. It was Critical Race Theory. One of our textbooks was Robin Diangelo's White Fragility. For those who don't know, Critical theory is essentially a worldview that dismantles and subverts what they view as the oppressive hegemonic power structures of the age. It's not just a diagnosis of the problem, it's a prescription to. For revolution. So part of that course, I had to start mock therapy sessions by saying something like this. Hi, thank you so much for coming into therapy. I just want to start by acknowledging that I'm white and I see that, you know, you're a person of color and I may make missteps and misunderstand you and please feel free to correct me. So here's the thing. Therapists will make missteps and make assumptions and make mistakes. That goes for every single client. You don't need a race based warning at the beginning of therapy. Yeah, unprompted.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Right.

[Naomi]

If a client wants to come and they're a person of color and they're like, hey, you know, I'm worried that you might misunderstand me because you're white. Like, okay, let's talk about that. Awesome. Like, let's have a conversation. That's not what this was. This is. It's programming. It's ideological programming.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And it's assuming because you are white you will make mistakes and you cannot understand your client who has more melanin than you. That seems to me, if I had a therapist who was apologizing and going ahead and telling me that they're going to make a mistake, which again, everyone's human, there will be mistakes. But telling me that they're probably gonna misunderstand me because we're so different. I'm like, I don't think that I want you to be my therapist anymore. But it's kind of a form of self punishment and self humiliation for white people.

[Naomi]

Yes, that's what it felt like.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And you were taught that linear thinking and delayed gratification, making a plan for the future, that these were all examples of white culture.

[Naomi]

Yes, that's in my textbook. It's called Counseling the Culturally Diverse by Daryl Wing Sue. And on my sub stack, I am going, I'm writing about these issues and pulling out exactly what's being taught to therapists. Because it's in the public's interest to know. He says that part of white culture is what you just listed. Essentially, anything that will lay the foundation to be a successful person is whiteness.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. And he was saying it in a negative way. Right. Like he wasn't saying this is good.

[Naomi]

I mean, he taught the. The book is full of critiques on whiteness, and then he says this is white culture.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

So I, I mean, I could put two and two together, I think.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

So as a therapist, like, if you're, if you're like talking to someone who is addicted to instant gratification, which is not good, by the way, like you say there were a so called person of color, a racial minority, they're saying that you shouldn't say, hey, like, let's talk about delayed gratification. Let's talk about making a plan for the future instead of just doing what you want in the moment.

[Naomi]

Allie, I would never impose my whiteness on somebody.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah, that's what they're saying that you would be doing.

[Naomi]

Pretty much. I mean, that's what I'm reading. And I don't think, because it's really interesting in the program, there's the true believers and then there's the go along to get along people.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Oh, yeah.

[Naomi]

Um, I think that the, the professor who was teaching this course was going along to getting along, which begs the question, why aren't you standing up and using critical thinking and encouraging us to do the same?

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. Well, it costs. And there are very few incentives for critical thinking. Very few, in fact. You are incentivized by power and by money to not critically think.

[Naomi]

Yes.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And to not ask questions and to not stand up. And most people want an easy life.

[Naomi]

Yeah, I know. That's a horrifying realization for me. Because if somebody is working in, you know, a specific industry, I'm not gonna dunk on some industry. But therapy, Come on. We're called to be people of integrity.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

It's all of these psychologists who are just failing me. And I'm watching moral cowardice. And it's make. It's nauseating.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

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[Naomi]

Okay.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Because it wasn't just adult sexuality that y' all focused on. Y' all also talked about children and the belief that a child can transition to the opposite gender or the opposite sex. And y' all were told that that's something that you had to uncritically affirm, right?

[Naomi]

Yes. Yeah, exactly. So we were, we were taught that if a child comes to us and they are experiencing extreme gender related distress, which, by the way, is very real. And I have compassion for people who have a deeply felt incongruence between their sex and how they perceive themselves and want to be perceived. I am trained that for when a. A child comes into my practice, let's say they're 12 or 13, and they say, let's say that they're a girl, and they say, I am a boy. It's my ethical obligation in this profession to affirm them in their. In their belief and to not act as a gatekeeper for their medical treatment.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

That's what you were taught.

[Naomi]

That is, that is what I am taught at this university, and that is what is being propagated down from the psychological governing bodies in this country.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. Which is so sad because I've talked to so many d transitioners. I'm sure you've heard their stories.

[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And every single one says that there was a therapist who didn't ask questions that checked off the boxes. And these therapists are so often hand selected by the local gender clinic and then recommended by the local gender clinic. And so you're only going to the therapist that will complete completely, uncritically affirm this person's choice. And if they say, you know, I also am anorexic or I also have bipolar disorder, or I'm also on the autism spectrum, the therapist is not supposed to question Whether that person really has gender dysphoria or whether they are really transgender. They're supposed to ignore all of that and say, yes, here is your letter of recommendation to go on. Puberty blockers, cross sex workers, hormones get your breasts cut off even as a teenager. That is what not everyone in the therapy world, but a significant chunk of the therapy world is doing today. And it sounds like it's because that is exactly what they are taught to do at universities.

[Naomi]

Yes, exactly. That is by design in this profession. And there are great therapists out there who will ask deeper questions and will walk with a child who has gender dysphoria and provide them good care. But those individuals are going against the ethical standards and guidelines in our profession, and they're taking a risk by doing that.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

So what happened after the Wall Street Journal piece was published? And that was published when?

[Naomi]

That was published on June 7th. Okay, so two days after. So meanwhile, part of a requirement for me to graduate is a nine month long internship, a therapy internship. So the official practicum period starts this fall. But I was just brought on to this organization, this nonprofit, and I was about to, you know, start working with them. So after this comes out, I get an email, need to discuss Wall Street Journal. I go, okay, great. I can see the writing on the wall already. But I talked to the director and I explained everything I in detail. And he goes, you know, I think you sound really reasonable, actually, and I want to keep you on great first hurdle. I am then summoned a couple days later to a 15 on 1 struggle meeting. It was a struggle meeting. And during this meeting, I was essentially. Character attacks were lodged at me.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Who was in this meeting?

[Naomi]

It was colleagues, so peers, so therapists in training.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Okay. And you, who called you to it?

[Naomi]

The director. Because he and I have so much compassion for this guy. I actually am pretty fond of him. But he called this meeting because I think he thought, like, oh, well, she sounds reasonable. Let's just get her together with everybody else. No, these people called me unsafe. They called me, yeah, like a danger to the profession. They. Somebody brought a written statement to pass around to everybody, like, taking down my arguments and whatnot. I'm like, can we just sit here and have a conversation about it? And I bared my soul to a group of 15 therapists. I really did. And I'm going to share this publicly once and never talk about it again. The reason that I think that we must analyze the. The BDSM culture critically is because it comes from a place of lived experience for me. I have experience with somebody who garnered sexual gratification from my pain and humiliation. And I, I know that legal consent does not mean that something is psychologically healthy. And I'm, I'm speaking about this to therapists, saying intimate details about what I've gone through. And instead of compassion, understanding nothing, I'm, I'm harmful by saying that. And I, I, one woman said, violent. It's not violence if it's consensual. And like, yes, it is. Yes, it is. So you know, and I share that. Not to, not for your audience's sympathy whatsoever. I'm in a happy, healthy marriage, and that is way behind me. But that's the, that's the, the capital in this culture is your lived experience. And I'm saying, hey, I do have lived experience, but it doesn't matter because it goes against the orthodoxy.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And that is such a terrible but perfect example of, like, the problem with toxic empathy is that you were told in all these courses, you have to have empathy for the person who likes bdsm. You have to have empathy for the man who orders the gang rape of his submissive wife, who violated their terms of agreement. You have to have. That's, I mean, that's literally, literally like, you need to have empathy for that person, and that's why we're showing you these things. But when it was the opportunity for them to have empathy for you, nothing. And Abigail Shrier, who is also, she wrote the book Bad Therapy, and I remember when I was still writing my book, she talked about this problem of empathy and how actually empathy taught in schools, it has been found to make the students meaner. Because when you have such intense empathy for one particular victim or one particular misunderstood person, your cruelty and your anger towards the out group, anyone who opposes that perceived victim is really, really intense. And so because they feel so much for the misunderstood BDSM person or whatever.

[Naomi]

It is a new oppressive or oppressed group.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yes. And because you are opposing them, it's almost like, it's almost like a mama bear reaction. They have, like, this mother like, protectiveness of the sexual degeneracy and people who practice it, who they perceive as oppressed and they see you as violating that, endangering that, oppressing that. And Abigail Shrier, she said, full of empathy and mean as hell. And I'm like, yes, that characterizes so many progressive activists, and I call it misplaced mothering, because a lot of them, not all of them, but a lot of them don't actually have physical children. And so they are placing their Natural parenting, mothering or fathering instincts on these, you know, purported victims, these marginalized people, and it makes them very angry at anyone who opposes them, even when you share your lived experience.

[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

What a traumatizing event.

[Naomi]

Yeah, it was traumatizing, actually. And I went. I went in knowing what was going to happen because I can. I have been researching the ideological frameworks that is underpinning all of this, and this is textbook social exile.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

But I went to the meeting as an anthropological exercise to understand this more fully.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

And to hear. To sit in the hot seat and see what it feels like to actually be exiled by profess, by colleagues and by therapists who are trained to listen and understand. But there was no listening or understanding in that meeting at all. So after the meeting ended, the director, you know, he and I talked one on one, and I cried. I was like, wow, that was intense. And he goes, yeah, it was intense. You did a great job. You're super articulate. You balanced your. Your own experience with your philosophical concerns, blah, blah, blah. All good. Two hours later, I get a call from him, and he says, it's not tenable for you to continue at the organization. And I'm really sorry to do this, and it is because of the intolerance of my staff. And I think that your writing is important and you should keep doing it. Wow, that was so interesting to me, because this person, he has the compassion. He sees the injustice, but he is bound by. By the fealty to the sociopolitical orthodoxy. He's still in the group. And they made an example out of me. The staff did. And he offered me as a sacrificial lamb.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. And I just want to say to that professor, who probably was at one point a reasonable guy who maybe was courageous enough to. To stand up for his own views, I just want to say, like, you don't have to submit.

[Naomi]

Yes.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

You don't. You don't. It's a choice that you are making. And as you are showing, yes, it might be difficult, it might require sacrifice, you might be ostracized. But how much is the truth worth?

[Naomi]

Yeah, that's right.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

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[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

After your Wall Street Journal piece came out, you know, saying people are concerned by this. I'll just read you part of it. Dear members of the Board of Fellows, thank you. To those of you who have inquired about or shared your concerns with me about the op ed published in the Wall Street Journal by a Santa Clar graduate. I've attached to a copy of the University's statement which helps clarify that this course fulfills the State of California licensure requirement for marriage and family therapists. The course content, they said, the. All of the sexual stuff that we were just talking about is similar to all other graduate programs across the state that must adhere to these requirements. Well, I believe.

[Naomi]

I kind of believe it too.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

I believe that. I know that each of us cares deeply about the experience. Experience of every student at Santa Clara University. I don't know. Our faculty and staff take great care to let students know that they understand the sensitive nature of the topics addressed in this course that they are committed to addressing together any concerns any students may have. It's total gaslighting. They're saying you're super sensitive.

[Naomi]

Yeah, I'm triggered. I'm a snowflake. Yeah, I'm a little snowflake. It's. Yeah, it's shocking. And I, I wrote a response to, to this, to their PR statement And they're just disingenuous. They have such disrespect for their fellows and their alumni. Can I use the word lying? I mean, they're lying. They. They're claiming that there was no required sexual disclosure. Oh, really? Because I was required to write something down that I dislike about my genitals to have it read aloud to the class. That happened to me. Are you saying that didn't happen? And, you know, another thing is, like, oh, we take every concern really seriously. And. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like, we value her opinion. I have been trying to break through to the administration for a year. For a year. I have letters to the dean, the provost, the president, Campus Ministry, Title 9, the Ombudsman. I have literally done everything in my power to resolve this quietly. And if President Julie Sullivan got my letter, and in that letter, I said, hey, this is putting Santa Clara University at legal and reputational risk. If she had just sat down with me and was like, oh, my gosh, thanks for letting me know that this is happening and we'll fix it, we could have all written off into the sunset. But that's not what happened.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

That's not what happened. A lot of people are commenting on your story that this is bigger than the therapy world. People are commenting that they've seen similar things even in seminaries. I'm sure in more like progressive seminaries. Um, there's someone named. And I might get his last name wrong. Niji. Maybe that's how you pronounce it. Charles Niji. He is the author of White Shaming, Bullying Based on Prejudice, Virtue Signaling, and Ignorance. He highlighted that this issue also goes into all realms of higher education beyond just therapy.

[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And he suggests that universities are, you know, in increasingly kind of incorporating the very explicit material that you're talking about. And it's. You know, as much as I like to steel man people's positions and to accurately represent them, I can't see, like, any other. Any other justification for this, any other reason for this beyond them wanting their students to be into that kind of stuff, to be into sexual depravity, to like it. To rewire their brain so that we have a bunch of, like, sexually degenerate, sadomasochistic people walking around.

[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And I don't know if it's a fetish or if it's something bigger and ideological, but it's very deeply disturbing.

[Naomi]

It is. And it's funny that you mentioned it like you want to steal man and, you know, assume the best motives. And I'm getting Like, kind of desperate, like, can you give me a pedagogical justification for this, please? Like, I'm trying to work with you here. And another thing that, you know, a conclusion that I've had to come to is this professor in my class where he showed the BDSM stuff, he talked openly about attending these BDSM kink festivals.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

And his own interest in that. And then so it's like, okay, you're interested in sadism, sexual sadism, and then you're asking us to publicly humiliate ourselves sexually.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

What can we do for that?

[Naomi]

I'm not gonna say the words out loud, but yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Right. Okay. On June 17th, the Dean of Santa Clara, Sabrina Zirkle, sent a letter to you, basically trying to refute your claims.

[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Saying that the university provided you with multiple accommodations that you declined. They said that they offered an independent study option with the same syllabus and course assignments, but completing them independently and outside of a group setting. She said that they gave you the option to find a course offered at an MFT program at another institution that would trans the credits and a special exception allowing you to complete this content through approved continuing education classes offered by a third party provider. So what is your response to that?

[Naomi]

Yeah, I mean, sure, they offered me the accommodation to read the sadomasochistic erotica and write the comprehensive sexual b. Autobiography in the comfort of my own home.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

Not in the classroom. That's unacceptable. And like, sure, I'll take the one time exception to. To complete the sex class somewhere else and transfer it in. I don't want a one time exception. I want them to be held accountable for institutionalized sexual harassment of every other single student. Because it's wrong.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And I just want to clarify because when you. You did ask to take the course online like Muslim students had, and you were told no, but. But she's saying that they did offer you to be able to do that.

[Naomi]

Originally in summer 2024. I was offered the remote accommodation to complete with the same syllabus, though. So I didn't get around talking about when I first started medicating.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Okay. And then the second time that you took the class because you dropped the class.

[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

You had to re enroll in the class. That's when you were like, okay, if I have to do it, then let me do the original option that you gave me. And that time, the second time they said no.

[Naomi]

They said drop or be dropped.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Okay, so she's telling a half truth here, is that you were offered that at one point. One point but then when you asked for it again the second time around after it got so bad, they told you no.

[Naomi]

Yep.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Okay. And then the university also is trying to dispute your claims about the sexual autobiography assignment. They said this is their. This is their defense. Please note that you are not required to disclose anything that causes extreme discomfort. Extreme discomfort. Just a little. A little uncomfy, but not extreme. However, I urge you to share as deeply as you feel comfortable, but you still have to talk about your sexuality.

[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Like you can't talk about going on a walk in a park. But the assignment started with. Describe chronologically your sexual past and present. There's no accommodation for those uncomfortable with the prompt to begin with, Right?

[Naomi]

No, there's no accommodation. And you know another thing they said they're like, well, you didn't have to do, like, you didn't have to talk about when you first noticed your genitals. If you wanted to talk more about, like, your masturbation habits. Like, you can pick and choose. Nothing required.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

But I am asked to complete an 8 to 10 page comprehensive sexual autobiography for a grade.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

You. There's no getting around the. The essence of that assignment. And to say that there's no required sexual disclosure, it's a lie.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. The university literally says under no circumstances were you required to disclose sexual memory, sexual experiences, or any other personal information.

[Naomi]

False. Yeah, it's just false. And I don't. Like. This is something that I'm wrestling with. Why are they. Why are they dying on this hill?

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

Why is this so important to them, this sexual autobiography assignment?

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And because they want people to recall sexual memories from when they were a child. I'm sorry. Yeah. That's what I think they do. That's. I think that that's what it's about. And I think that they like reading about it. That's. I'm not saying. You're not saying that. Naomi's not saying that. Ali is saying that. That's what it seems like to me. That is my opinion.

[Naomi]

That is what it seems like, isn't it?

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Okay. If you were anything like me, you are not eating enough fruits and vegetables. It's just true. I don't. I don't really like vegetables that much. I don't really like cooking vegetables. I don't really love eating vegetables. I do make myself eat vegetables, but even in that, I'm not eating enough. And that's why I really love food. Field of Greens. It is a vegetable concoction that I can drink that actually tastes good. I've tried the kind of vegetable powder drinks that don't taste great, that have a difficult texture. That is not true. A field of Greens. It actually tastes really good. And this is the difference maker, too, between field of greens and maybe some other alternatives. It is all organic. You think that every health drink that you buy out there would be organic, but that's. That's not true. But every fruit, every vegetable that is used in field of Greens is actually organic. And so if you are looking to add vegetables to your diet, which we all need to, if you are looking to support vital organs, like your brain, your heart, your liver, your kidneys, your metabolism, if you're trying to boost your immune system by getting the nutrients that you need, then you've got to try field of Greens. I've been drinking it. I really like it. I think it's helped me. Go to Field of Greens.com use code ALI. You'll get 20% off. Amazing. Deal plus free shipping. Fieldofgreens.com code ALI. Okay, so they also said they are disputing your account of what happened in class based on input from others who were present. So the kind of people that told you that your experiences don't matter and your perspective doesn't matter. We also do not agree with your assertions about and characterization of what occurred during the class. The class content necessarily examines numerous aspects of human sexuality because understanding these issues is an essential part of preparing students to become licensed therapists. So they didn't actually specifically dispute what you said happened in class, that you had to share masturbation experiences. They didn't say that didn't happen. They just said it didn't happen. Exactly like you said.

[Naomi]

Oh, my gosh. Apparently, it's essential information for me to learn as a therapist that trans women have. That can blow up the world.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

Like, I'm. I'm so desperate. You. I don't know if you can sense my exasperation. Like, please talk to me. Please acknowledge what happened.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

This is insane. It needs to be fixed. Do they are like, do you still not understand how serious I am about this getting fixed?

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. This also. This letter came 11 days after your Wall Street Journal op ed was released, which means they probably hired a lawyer and a publicist. And I'm sure they have those on hand already. And, you know, they were doing their very best at damage control.

[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

But obviously, like, it's not going to stop. It's not appropriate.

[Naomi]

It's not gonna stop.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And it's for the students who are too scared to speak up for the really smart, critically thinking students who want to be therapists one day.

[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

It's important that people know that if you want to be a good therapist, which means someone who actually understands psychological and sexual health and who has a good moral compass and is grounded, you should not go to a university like Santa Clara University.

[Naomi]

Don't go and don't give them your money.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. What else do you want people to know?

[Naomi]

I want people to know that this field is actually on the brink of collapse and it is happening slowly and then all at once. And we are in the acceleration period because critical thinkers, people of faith, people with diverse worldviews, they're being pushed out of this helping profession. And one woman I spoke to, her name is Susanna Alexander, she does a ton of research about the accreditation bodies that license therapists. And KCREP is the, the biggest one. They license counselors and she describes it as a, a money making cartel. There is incentives for CACREP to become the accreditor for in every single state. That is their goal. And they are completely ideologically captured. In fact, fair, the Foundation Against Intolerance and RA just filed a civil rights complaint against KCREP for religious discrimination, ideological compliance and you know, a whole gamut. So this is a, this is so much bigger. Like my story, it's a blip and it's crazy and it's about sex. So it's going to get a lot of publicity. The public needs to know that this cr, this field is in crisis, in complete crisis. And we need to have an honest conversation right now about where we go from here. Because people, there is a mental health crisis as well in our country. So where the heck do people go to get good quality evidence based care?

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. And what are you going to do? So you're no. No longer part of that non profit that you were a part of. Are you still enrolled at Santa Clara?

[Naomi]

I am. And in that, in that email from the dean, she said, you know, we're committed to graduating you. I'm sure they want to get rid of me at this point and that's probably the best way for them to do it with least exposure. So I'm going to try to graduate, I'm going to try to become a therapist because I think that this world needs therapists who can think critically and who have a strong sense of their own moral compass. I am also going to continue bringing light to this issue and holding the, the leaders of the psychological field accountable. I've been interviewing leadership, American Psychological association leadership, bringing these concerns to those guys so I'm going to keep writing about it, keep reaching out and. And hopefully warn people that this is a crisis that needs addressing. Like, right now. Right now.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

How has your family responded to this?

[Naomi]

You know, my family is so supportive of me that I. They think I'm crazy. Like, for. For exposing myself to this level of publicity. Maybe I am. It's not easy being in the public eye. I didn't want that, but I think somebody has to do it. And I've been put in this position now where I'm having the opportunity, so they have my back. My husband is walking my baby at the beach right now as we speak, and they just want me to keep going.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. And your parents?

[Naomi]

Yeah, yeah, my mom. Yeah, my mom. And my dad. My dad goes, God, so hard having firecrackers for children.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah, it's true. Because you just can't help but speak up when something's wrong.

[Naomi]

Yeah, that's what we have to do. And I think I want to say to everybody who knows this is wrong, who is in the field, speak up. They will threaten you. They will try to exile you. They will attack your character. Say, okay, just let it roll off. Say, no, Say no more. I can say what I think. People are allowed to exist with diverse worldviews. It's. It's time to stand up for. For our right to think critically.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Naomi]

Like, right now.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And look, now is the moment, because things have shifted. It's not 2020. People are less tolerant of progressive nonsense. Like, I'm over. Like, I'm over the white guilt. I'm over the indoctrinated, institutionalized sexual degeneracy. And I am over progressive activists and professors and institutions thinking that they can operate without accountability. Yeah, I'm just completely over it. And a ton of people are over it. Not just Republicans. I'm talking Democrats, moderates, Independents, people from across the spectrum. And so, like, it's hard to be first. I'm not saying that you're the first to talk about the problems with therapy, but specifically, you know, at this university. But hopefully this creates a domino effect. And people listen to this and watch this, and they say, okay, this is my moment. This is it. This is the final push that I needed.

[Naomi]

Yes.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Okay, this person can do it. I can do it, too. Yep. And so that's. That's what I hope that that comes of this. But just know, like, there are a lot of us out there that are willing to support you, pray with you, share the arrows with you.

[Naomi]

Thank you.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And stand up. And that's what all, like, sharing the errors is. You know, I talk about a lot. That's what it's all about to say. Oh, you're attacking this person for their faith. You can come at me, too. I. You want to call her that name? You can call me that name, too. I don't care. Yeah, I don't care. And, like, that is like. Like a hard, scary place to be, and they hate it, but it's also a very freeing place to be.

[Naomi]

Yeah.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

And that's, like, where the trust in the sovereignty of God comes into play. Because it's like, okay, God, like, I am immortal until you call me home and you've got me. You planned all of this out.

[Naomi]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I think just to close it out, like, thank you. You are one of the people who paved the way for me demonstrating. You can speak up. You are allowed to exist with your beliefs and, you know, raise a respectful ruckus. Do it kindly. Do it in love. Because if you have your. Your integrity and you're saying the truth wouldn't love, you just don't care about the consequences. I don't care anymore.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're praying for you, and we are with you, and we're watching this journey, and I know that there will now be thousands and thousands of people who watch this who are praying for you and supporting you. So is there any specific way that people can help you?

[Naomi]

I write on substack, so if people want to help me by just subscribing, there's a free option. I'm gonna monetize it, too, for some exclusive content if you're interested in this, because, yeah, I just. I might have just blown up my career, but this is a new path, and I know that I have support from people, so.

[Allie Beth Stuckey]

Yeah, well, man's rejection is God's protection. I read that a long time ago, and I think about it a lot, and I believe that for your story. So thank you so much for sharing.

[Naomi]

Thanks, Ellie.