Ep 1216 | When to Stop Having Kids, the Baptism Debate, & Marian Doctrine | Lila Rose

Summary

Podcast Summary: Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey – Episode 1216

Title: When to Stop Having Kids, the Baptism Debate, & Marian Doctrine | Lila Rose
Host/Author: Blaze Podcast Network
Release Date: July 11, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In Episode 1216 of Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey, host Ali Stuckey engages in a profound and spirited discussion with Lila Rose of Live Action. The episode delves into pressing topics such as the Christian perspective on family planning, the nuances of Catholic and Protestant doctrines, particularly regarding baptism, and the role of Mary in Catholic theology.

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The Joys and Challenges of Motherhood

Duration: 00:00 – 05:56

Ali and Lila begin by sharing personal experiences of motherhood. Lila discusses the profound joy derived from watching her children grow, emphasizing the unique personalities that emerge between her sons and daughter.

• Notable Quote:
  Lila Rose (01:30): "There’s nothing more joyful when I wake up in the morning than seeing my daughter."

They explore the innate differences between raising boys and girls, discussing how each child's temperament and interests manifest uniquely. The conversation highlights the energy and activities required to manage multiple children, especially in navigating chaotic daily routines.

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Deciding When to Stop Having Children

Duration: 13:33 – 22:42

The primary focus shifts to discerning when a Christian family should consider stopping expansion. Lila articulates the Catholic teaching that emphasizes openness to life, advocating for natural family planning methods to space or limit children for significant reasons such as health or economic stability.

• Notable Quote:
  Lila Rose (14:33): "Christians should always be open to life... If we do conceive, we're going to be open to them."

Ali shares her personal struggles with deciding to have more children, citing challenging pregnancies and the emotional toll of childbirth. The discussion underscores the importance of prayer and discernment in making such pivotal family decisions.

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Catholic vs. Protestant Doctrines on Family Planning and Baptism

Duration: 22:42 – 42:53

Ali probes into the differences between Catholic and Protestant teachings, particularly focusing on the role of authority and tradition. Lila defends the Catholic stance on practices like IVF, emphasizing that while the act may be morally questionable, the resulting life is a blessing.

• Notable Quote:
  Lila Rose (23:18): "IVF is wrong. The act of IVF is wrong. But what is not wrong is that new human life."

The conversation shifts to baptism, where Ali, representing a Protestant Baptist viewpoint, questions the Catholic practice of infant baptism. Lila counters by referencing early church traditions and scriptural interpretations that support the inclusion of children in baptismal rites.

• Notable Quote:
  Lila Rose (41:07): "The early Christians were baptizing their babies. That was a common practice."

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Disunity Within the Catholic Church

Duration: 43:00 – 54:42

Ali brings up statistical data suggesting a significant divergence between professing Catholics and Protestants on moral issues such as abortion, homosexuality, and casual sex. He questions why, despite the Catholic Church's unified teachings, there appears to be substantial disunity among its followers.

Lila attributes this disunity to a lack of proper catechesis and formation within the Church. She emphasizes that many Catholics are not adequately educated on their faith's teachings, leading to confusion and varied personal beliefs that deviate from official doctrines.

• Notable Quote:
  Lila Rose (54:27): "There's a catechesis crisis in the Catholic Church... A lot of Catholics are not catechized, so they're not well formed in their faith."

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Marian Doctrine and Its Scriptural Basis

Duration: 55:00 – 67:15

The episode culminates in an in-depth debate on Marian doctrine. Ali challenges the Catholic practice of venerating Mary, questioning its basis in Scripture. He points out the absence of explicit mentions of praying to Mary in the Epistles and Acts, contrasting it with Jesus' direct teachings.

• Notable Quote:
  Ali Stuckey (59:18): "Why don't we see any example of praying to or through Mary in Scripture at all?"

Lila defends the Catholic position by referencing scriptural moments where Mary plays a pivotal role, such as the Wedding at Cana and the Magnificat. She explains that Catholic practices like the Rosary are meant to meditate on Christ's life, using Mary as a model of obedience and faith.

• Notable Quote:
  Lila Rose (58:35): "The rosary is a meditation on the life of Christ... it's not an obsession with Mary per se."

The discussion highlights the theological differences between Catholics and Protestants regarding intercessory practices and the role of saints in Christian life. Despite their disagreements, both Ali and Lila express mutual respect and a desire for continued dialogue.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a heartfelt acknowledgment of their respectful and insightful conversation. Both hosts express admiration for each other's work and the importance of maintaining friendships despite theological differences.

• Notable Quote:
  Ali Stuckey (66:38): "I respect you so much and I appreciate... we can have these discussions and still be friends."

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Key Takeaways

• Christian Family Planning: Emphasizes openness to life while considering practical and moral factors.
• Doctrinal Differences: Highlights the divergence between Catholic and Protestant practices on baptism and Marian reverence.
• Catechesis Importance: Stresses the need for proper religious education to maintain doctrinal unity within the Catholic Church.
• Respectful Dialogue: Demonstrates the possibility of meaningful conversations despite deep theological disagreements.

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This episode serves as a comprehensive exploration of complex theological issues surrounding family, doctrine, and the roles of tradition and scripture in shaping Christian practices. It's an insightful listen for anyone interested in understanding the nuanced perspectives within Christian communities.

Transcript

[Ali Stuckey]

Everything from clothing to household items are getting more expensive each day. American Giant is about keeping things simple and close to home. They aren't affected by tariffs because their products never leave the US Support American made tariff free clothing with American Giant. Get 20% off your first order when you use promo code [e-mail] that's 20% off when you use code STAPLE4IL20@american-giant dot com is the Catholic Church, the church Jesus established 2,000 years ago. My good friend Lila Rose of Live Action and I are debating this and much more about Catholic and Protestant doctrine today. But first, we are getting into the joys and the challenges of motherhood. How we know as Christians when to stop having children. This is a great and very full discussion and a lively debate on today's episode of Relatable. It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com code ali at checkout. That's goodranchers.com code Ali. Lila, thanks so much for joining us. Tell me what's going on in your life. What's your favorite thing about motherhood right now?

[Lila Rose]

I love that question. I just, my daughter, our youngest, Gigi, is 14 months old.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

And she's chunky.

[Ali Stuckey]

She's two.

[Lila Rose]

She's wearing two teeth and she's so sweet. She's walking, talking, doing all the things. And so it's just the oxytocin that I get from just holding her and cuddling her and just seeing her smile. There's nothing more joyful when I wake up in the morning than seeing my daughter.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes.

[Lila Rose]

So. And then my sons, of course, too. They're magical. So it's just.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

Literally I wake up every day and I pinch myself that I get to be their mom and I get to have this life.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes. It's just such a blessing. Your kids, your boys, I think look alike. And then your daughter looks completely different than your boys. And they're also distinctly cute, but so different.

[Lila Rose]

Yeah. Everyone's like, we're asking about their coloring and saying like, where did these kids come from? And we're like, I don't know. Although we saw our rel, we saw my brother and his sister and his wife. My sister in law and their youngest has the same coloring strangely as my boys. So they all look like a little pack.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

Genetics are very fun.

[Ali Stuckey]

Oh, I think your boys look like you.

[Lila Rose]

Oh.

[Ali Stuckey]

Oh, really?

[Lila Rose]

Okay, good.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes.

[Lila Rose]

I can see that's not what people say. They say he's all, they're all my Husband.

[Ali Stuckey]

Okay. Well, that's okay, too. I know I don't get a lot of, like, your kids look just like you. I thought that.

[Lila Rose]

I think they look like you.

[Ali Stuckey]

I thought that my jeans would be dominant because my. I look like my mom, and my mom's jeans are so dominant, and my jeans didn't put up that much of a fight. I thought that they would.

[Lila Rose]

Well, I think you and like, you and Timothy have similar coloring. Yeah, it kind of works. Yeah, that works for the girl you can see. But you can see both of you and the girls.

[Ali Stuckey]

Okay, what's one thing that you learned? Okay, two things. One thing that you learned going from two kids to three kids, and then one thing you learned going from boy mom to boy and girl mom.

[Lila Rose]

Okay, I'll start with the boy mom to girl mom, because that's easier. It is so different. Ali and I already. I know there's like a spectrum, of course, of how kids are and because of their personalities and temperaments, but she is so. She. The way that she emotionally responds to things, everything's a bigger deal. And she's just a like 14 month, but different than her brothers were. She's more almost emotionally interested. It's like she's. She kind of has this. She has little bits that she does with the people that she meets.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

Again, it's spunky personality, but there's also something very girly about it. And then what she's interested in, it is so undeniable. The biology. She goes for the doll. She goes for the. She's very, like, careful with the toy and gentle the boys. It's about destruction and building and conquering and climbing. I mean, she still wants to climb and build and do things, but you see already. I mean, I get to see anyways. And again, not every girl, but my girl, definitely. There's just girly, girly stuff that she's into. And it's not. Cause we're pushing it on her. She just kind of explores. Most of the toys are boys toys.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

Because of the older boys. So that's the biggest thing. Just the beautiful differences that are already emerging between them that just like innate differences between boys and girls. I know they are different.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes. Totally different. I was asking Timothy the other day because our. Our youngest is. You kind of like start losing track of the months. She'll be two in a few months, so I don't know, 21 months maybe. But she points out every baby that she sees. Baby, baby, baby. I'm like, that kid's bigger than you. But like, everything is a baby that's small. And I'm like, I'm wondering, if we had a boy this age, would a boy be pointing out, baby, baby, baby, everything? It's so funny.

[Lila Rose]

They point out the trucks and the cars.

[Ali Stuckey]

My kids are not interested in that at all. A boy mom asked me the other day because, like, where we're staying is right by a train. And they were like, oh, I bet your kids think that's so cool. During the day when they see the train go by, I'm like, no, they don't. At all.

[Lila Rose]

They don't think it's. No. My boys still love babies and they love little kids and they're very tender, but it's different.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

Don't tell me it's not different. Again, not every child is going to be the same as every other child. But it is. There is. Largely speaking, generally speaking, there's differences and they're beautiful.

[Ali Stuckey]

So what do you do to help your kids get their energy out? Because two boys, especially have a ton of energy and they need to be active in all of that. And so, like, what's your activity?

[Lila Rose]

Yeah, great question. We wander around the backyard and just, like, go in circles. We actually took the cars out of the garage and they just ride the bikes in the garage if I need them more contained. And they'll just go in circles and circles and circles. They wrestle.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes.

[Lila Rose]

With super. Try to, like, supervise from at least a distance. But it's hard. I mean, I will say around 4pm every day.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

There's complete chaos. And that's usually dinner hour. You're starting to, like, try to prep dinner. So I haven't really figured out exactly how to do it because it does just get. And there's no. I only have three.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

My mother had eight kids. My mother had eight kids and she had to do it, you know, do that. And she had almost no help, you know, And I'm blessed with much more help than she had. But it is. It is. I don't know. Do you have any tricks? Yeah, I guess you're. You have girls, so maybe they're not.

[Ali Stuckey]

As crazy, but they still, you know, it's like, they're still kids, and so they still have the energy and they. At the end of the day is when you start hearing like, I'm bored. I want to do things. And we try to push off screens as long as possible. We don't do ipods or tablets or anything like that. But for tv, we do let them watch TV sometimes, but we try to Push it towards the very end of the day. So it's limited to, like, when we're trying to get dinner ready and all of that. But even that, like, if I can get them to go outside or to start doing something, I prefer that. And a little bit of a consequence to that. So we have like a crepe myrtle. Do you know what that is? It might be more prevalent in the. In the South. Oh, it's a plant. Yes. It's a tree, but it's not really like a good climbing tree. It's like, very flimsy. But my oldest started climbing in it because she found a bird's nest. And she was so excited about this bird's nest and it was occupying so much of her time. And I'm like, that is cool. Great. I love that for her. And she started trying to find worms and bugs and putting it in the bird's nest. Baby bird. There were, there were eggs in there. So she was really excited about that. And the mama bird would come back and all of stuff. Of course, the mama bird was like, not excited about my, like a six year old being up there. And my six year old accidentally knocked one of the eggs out and it splattered on the ground. And she was like, very traumatized.

[Lila Rose]

Did you see a chick embryo?

[Ali Stuckey]

No, but she was, like, very traumatized by this. And I'm like, okay, you know what? This is a good life lesson, though.

[Lila Rose]

We did no not touch.

[Ali Stuckey]

Well, we did talk about that, but it was also like, well, it's kind of my fault because I totally allowed her to do that, even though we did talk about the risk of it. But also, like, it's good to be sad. We take care of nature, we take care of animals, we care about animals. But also people matter more than animals. And so it's okay.

[Lila Rose]

It's great.

[Ali Stuckey]

And so, yeah, I just think there's like, a lot of lessons to be learned when we do try to, like, get our kids to push past boredom, which I'm not perfect at at all. All of the little adventures that they go on, like, contain so many, so many different lessons. But that does require, like, more energy and patience from me, which I don't like, you know, always perfectly give.

[Lila Rose]

I've actually, that's something I've been noticing more, is intentionally letting them just play together. And if there's even a little bit of a squabble, letting them figure it out. Now, obviously, if someone's getting go and check in, I'm more talking about the older boys, the three and the five year old. But if they're in the backyard and I hear a squabble, see if they can resolve it. And then also just let them get busy. And they come up with the most interesting little. You know, they'll color pages and put up signs, like tape signs on the wall, like do not pass or, you know, just coming up with random stuff. But they entertain themselves. They learn to play without me having to get in there and having to direct every step. And I think that's healthy. I think we, as modern parents, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to hyper plan for our kids, how to engage them, how to entertain them, how to, yes, educate them. We should be very focused. We should be nurturing, we should be forming them. But free play. I grew up just spending most of my time running around our backyard with my brothers.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

For hours. And my mother would be taking care of the younger kids or doing other things in the house for hours. And we would get in trouble. I mean, we would mess things up. We would get dirty. But it was so wonderful because our imaginations could kind of rule the day instead of having a parent imposing an activity on us.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah. Remind me where you fall in line.

[Lila Rose]

With your third oldest out of eight kids.

[Ali Stuckey]

Okay. And you have. Do you have older sisters or were you the first boy?

[Lila Rose]

I'm in between five boys.

[Ali Stuckey]

Okay. Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

[Lila Rose]

And then I have my little sisters at the end.

[Ali Stuckey]

Okay. What was it like growing up with that many siblings? I just have two, and they're way older than me, so I was kind of like an only child in some ways. The age gap, ten and a half and seven years.

[Lila Rose]

So you're kind of like an only in a way.

[Ali Stuckey]

An only way in some ways. So I'm curious, like, what the experience. Experience is like with so many.

[Lila Rose]

Awesome.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah, it was.

[Lila Rose]

It makes me want to cry thinking about it. It was awesome to have brothers and sisters to play with. I mean, there was chaos. There were certainly elements that my parents were like, I wish we could have done this better because it is a lot of little souls to raise. But we got to be best friends. We got to do crazy stuff together. We got to learn so much about dealing with different temperaments and different kinds of people and different interests and different desires. I mean, it's really a school, a school of human formation to have to deal with all these different people. I highly recommend big families if you're able to have a big family, you know, God willing. I highly recommend people. When I was talking to a couple recently and they said, oh yeah, we have three. We're not sure about four. And. And I said, well, what do you mean you're not sure about four? Well, you know, it's just, you know, it's nice to be out of diapers, whatever. And I can understand that. Of course, when you're in it, you're in it. It's hard. But I just think about the gift that a sibling is to another sibling.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

Just how irreplaceable every, all seven of my siblings, they are irreplaceable to me. There are. They are unrepeatable. They're so beautiful. And to imagine life without even just one of them is so sad.

[Ali Stuckey]

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[Lila Rose]

It's a great question. So the, the Catholic teaching on it is. And I was raised Protestant, so my family wasn't even Catholic growing up.

[Ali Stuckey]

So it's not like you had a lot of kids.

[Lila Rose]

I know they were very unusual in their church.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

And they got judged for it, actually, because they just felt this sense of saying yes to God's generosity, of if God gives us blesses with children, we're going to just accept them. And we're not. They. They felt contraception. They just had a visceral, ick response to contraception. Yeah, but how do we know when. How do you know when you're done? So I think for Christians, I believe we should always be open to life in the sense that we know that sex can bring life into the world. And if it does, we're going to embrace that child. Right. We get to decide when to have sex when we're married. Right. It's not like we're being forced to. We shouldn't be forced to. We decide right. As a couple. And so there's that natural built in. Okay. We're going to delay or not have children at this time because of some, you know, serious issue, or you have your fertility window. We're not going to, you know, be intimate during this fertility window because we want to space children for this important issue and that.

[Ali Stuckey]

And so the Catholic teaching says that that's okay to do, like fertility awareness method or natural family planning. So it's okay to purposely space. Try not to conceive.

[Lila Rose]

Yes. There needs to be a good reason. It shouldn't be like, oh, I want to go on 10 more vacations and I don't want to be bothered with kids because the crown of marriage is a child. Right. And that's really the point of marriage is sanctity for the spouses and then to bring up the next generation. So that's. And that takes sacrifice. I mean, that to be Generous with God and open to life. It's not necessarily an easy thing. Some people are like, yay, kids. But other people are like, this is really hard. For me, a lot of people, this is really hard. But it's. The heart is a beautiful hard. It's a meaningful hard. So with Catholic teaching, it's not so much about, are we done yet? And more about discerning. Okay, is there a reason, a significant reason, to pause on, you know, having children at this time? If we do conceive, of course we're going to be open to them, but we're going to either use fertility awareness to space the child or to delay that, you know, getting pregnant, or they can choose to abstain, obviously, but they can just not have sex during the fertile period. And a lot of couples will do that. Now. Some couples, maybe they have, you know, four or five kids, and they. They say there's some significant health issues in the family. Right. There's a significant economic issue in the family. And they can say, okay, we're going to pause, maybe even indefinitely. And that might be done in a way, because maybe by the time they're able to start again, they're not able to conceive. She's older. There's other health issues. In that sense, you can be done in the sense that you can say, well, this is not a good time because of these important reasons, so we're going to wait. But I think the attitude of, I'm done. I got my three. Sorry, God, it doesn't matter if you have more in mind. I'm done. So I don't think that's a Christian posture separate from Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox. I just think the Christian posture is children are a blessing from the Lord. You want many arrows, you know, gifts from God and that. What's the whole crown of marriage? Yeah, child.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

This idea of two to three kids is a very. And I know both of us have three kids, so we're. We're. We're only halfway. You know, we're only starting. But this idea of just 1, 2, 3 kids is a very modern idea.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah, yeah. We've been talking about. And I haven't talked about this publicly, but my husband and I, we've been talking about, you know, having more kids and the difficult that. The difficulty that we have. And I know that this is legitimate. I just am wrestling with whether this is like not trusting God and I'm being fearful or whether I'm employing wisdom and discernment. And, you know, Timothy and I are praying about this and Talking about this, we have three. We love three. We'd want more. But all of my births and postpartum have been really hard. I had two C sections, and then I had a vaginal birth. I'm so thankful that I. I got to experience both, actually, because it's given me just, like, a lot of understanding and appreciation for all of that. But they've been tough. Like, very painful, Very difficult. I won't get into, like, graphic things, but just hard and emotionally because of the physical pain that lasted for so long. And there's a part of me that's like, I'm scared. You know, I'm scared to do that again. And I'm scared that I won't be able to be fully present for my kids for an extended, extended period of time. And obviously, the child will be worth it. It's not a question about that. It's just a question about at what point can you weigh those factors and say, it would be wise to not do that? Or are you saying, you know what, I trust you, God. I trust you with my body. I trust, you know, you with my recovery. And it is going to be difficult. But, like, you know, we know that a child is a blessing. And I don't know if there's a hard and fast answer to that. I do think it takes prayer and discernment. But I also just want to say I relate to those out there who are, you know, wrestling with those very real thoughts and fears.

[Lila Rose]

That is very real. And that those are tough things.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

And like you said, you've had these very, very tough pregnancies and deliveries, and other women, they have other health conditions, and, yeah, it's. It's tough. It's tough. I think a foundational principle for us as Christians. Right. Is like you just said so beautifully, is trust. Trust in God. And then I think another piece of it, too, is generosity, where, yes, you want to be prudent. So if there's some, you know, significant reason or there's obviously some kind of a health crisis, that's, you know, maybe a pause moment. It's not a required pause moment, by the way, but it may be a pause moment. But I think the generosity piece is so important, and it's tricky because, well, how generous is generous? Right.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

You know, in today's world, three is already generous compared, you know, other. Other people. So I think praying about it and just asking God, you know, give me, give me. If this is for. For you, you know, from you, I want more confidence, maybe more peace, because it sounds like that fear of what you've been through is.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

Is holding you back. It's hurts. It's a heavy thing weighing on you. Understandably so.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah. And it's kind of true in all decision making that we have as Christians, when you're not choosing between sin and the right thing to do, you're not necessarily choosing between good and bad. You're choosing between good and best. And that takes, like, a lot of fine tuning, discernment, and a lot of Holy Spirit, because might not open the Bible and have my exact verse for my exact situation. Um, yeah. And that is a beautiful thing about marriage, too, is. And a beautiful thing about being a wife is that when I don't know what to do, I can always pray that God would lead Timothy and that Timothy would lead us. And it's great that that is like a mantle that he holds that I don't ultimately hold, that he's like the leader of our family. My mom always says, like, she always wanted one more. And my dad, after every child was like, no, we're done. He was done after one. He was definitely done after two. And every time my mom prayed, okay, God, I want another baby. But it has to be his idea, my dad's idea. And so she says it was always the timing that my dad would just. Just one day turn around after saying, I don't want any more kids, and say we should have another baby. And then they did. And so I'm not saying that's everyone's situation, but I think for us women, too, kind of like releasing that and remembering that our husband is like, is the leader in our family, it kind of relieves some pressure, too.

[Lila Rose]

I love that. Yeah, it's true. And God speaks through obviously, that natural order of. Of the husband in the home. I think the other element that's really peace giving is, you know, I see, you know, as you know, I'm Catholic. And contraception, the teaching there is that anything that frustrates the procreative and the unitive in the sexual act is wrong. So sex is designed to bring two people together incredibly intimately, and it's designed to bring life into the world. Not every sexual act can bring life into the world because you're not always fertile as a woman. You know, we know this, of course, but if you intentionally, during your fertility period, are using contraception to separate the procreative and the unitive, then you're frustrating the design that God has. And so that's the beauty of natural family planning or fertility awareness methods is you can Space pregnancies, you can delay potentially getting pregnant if there's a significant reason. And you do that using the natural rhythms of the body as opposed to this artificial contraception. So I think that also gives a lot of freedom for Christian families to say, okay, we don't do contraception like the culture does, but we do use fertility awareness and make those best judgments about when to maybe pursue having a child or when to, you know, intentionally, like, we want to have a child, we're going to make sure we're having, you know, being intimate during. When we're.

[Ali Stuckey]

Ovulation.

[Lila Rose]

Ovulation, exactly. But that. There's still this posture. I think the posture is important. There's still the posture of openness to life. That. Because keep in mind, every time a life comes into existence, that's God's work. God creates that soul. That is an act of God. And so there's a beautiful confidence in that that there's no life that comes to us by accident.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

And that. I think my parents. I know that was their posture again. They were Protestants. Their posture was like, these are from. These children are from God. So we're just gonna say yes to. Yes to whatever God may give.

[Ali Stuckey]

Okay. Something I've gotten a lot. And you've probably gotten this, too, when it comes to ivf, that God is the giver of life. And therefore, even though scientists and doctors are bringing together the sperm and the embryo, it always has to be God who gives the speaker spark of life. So God is in ivf. That's what some defenders of IVF say. Um, and so I think I know what your response would be, but what would you say?

[Lila Rose]

Yeah, I've definitely heard that as well, Ally. And it is true that those are precious human beings made in God's image. So that is. But God respects human freedom. Like, if we have technologies to manipulate life, to create life in a test tube, God respects our power to do that, and he. He is allowing it. Just like. And not to say that IVF is like rape, because they're obviously very different. But in a. In a situation of sex outside of marriage or sexual assault or any other situation, that there's immoral acts taking place. Right. And a life comes into existence, that's still God, you know, in that life, bringing that life into the world. But the act that brought that life into existence, that was. That was not the moral act. So the act that brings life into existence can be immoral, but the bringing of the life into existence is never immoral. And I think that's the distinction that a lot of people maybe philosophically aren't seeing with ivf. In ivf, you are taking life out of the natural order where children deserve to be conceived in a loving marital embrace, they deserve to be conceived in love. It's a natural order. And there's a lot of protective mechanisms in God's providence for that child if they're conceived that way. We know those protective elements just on its face. Looking at the fact that, as you've talked about many times, a million babies frozen in IVF clinics, 7% of these babies make it out alive. Many are destroyed or miscarried. The levels of risk for them are so high and the destruction is so high. The natural order is much more designed for their safety and their nourishing. So IVF is wrong. The act of IVF is wrong. But what is not wrong is that new human life.

[Ali Stuckey]

Right. The baby is always a blessing.

[Lila Rose]

Yes.

[Ali Stuckey]

But that doesn't mean that we are endorsing every method of making a baby.

[Lila Rose]

Exactly.

[Ali Stuckey]

And that's why I really get frustrated with what I kind of think is a form of emotional manipulation when we talk about the ethics or the lack of ethics in ivf. And then we get, well, you're saying that my baby shouldn't be here. You're saying that my child is not a blessing. And I understand for someone who has conceived their children through ivf, you're looking in their face every day, you love them so much. They're an image bearer of God. To separate that child from the means by which you had that child would be really tough. I've seen people do it, though, because God can work in your heart and allow you to do that. But I understand that it's really difficult to. And I just wish there were a little bit more of an honest conversation between those who are for IVF and against ivf. Can we at least acknowledge that we're not demonizing the people who are created? But it turns into that very quickly, which makes the debate and discussion difficult, even among professing Christians, which is really like my biggest frustration. I know the Catholic Church itself has been really clear on this, and that's something I'm very thankful for. Their stance on ivf, their stance on procreation, but I imagine I don't know the numbers on it. I imagine there are a lot of professing Catholics who aren't against it, who might not know the church's teachings, I guess, and who would support it. Do you find that as you're talking in Catholic circles, that some Catholics, just like, they just don't know.

[Lila Rose]

Yeah. There's definitely a lot of Catholics who are not catechized, so they're not well formed in their faith. Because I think in the Catholic space, particularly, there is this passing on of the sacraments. Right. That Catholic parents will give to their children. Typically. Right. Not always, but typically. But if they're not including a deeper understanding of those sacraments they're receiving and the faith that they're being given. Right. Then they might be doing the motions of that, and the motions still have power. Baptism is still baptism, even if I didn't understand what was happening when I was baptized. But they still have power. But I may myself not be able to correspond to the graces that God wants to give me to be a live a Christian life. Right. So that's the. The piece that is the state of American Catholicism today is that there's a lot of uncategized Catholics. They don't even believe in the true presence, in the. The real presence in the Eucharist. They don't understand the Church's teaching on contraception or sex. And there's a lot of good intentions, but there's a lot of confusion.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

And that exists in the Protestant community, too. But I can particularly speak to it in the Catholic world because our. The teachings are so clear, you know.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

You can open the catechism, you can read, you know, encyclicals, you can obviously go to Holy Scripture, and the teachings are there.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Lila Rose]

And what's beautiful about, you know, I'm so grateful as a Catholic, is, you know, people say, well, the Pope, you know, he has his issues. Well, of course, he's. He is himself an imperfect man. But when he's speaking in authority as the head of the Church, speaking for the Church in matters of faith and morals, and this is magisterial doctrine, and then we can understand how to interpret things like IVF as an example. You know, things like, you know, human cloning, all of these technologies that are coming down the pike. Obviously, the word IVF is not in Holy Scripture. Right. A lot of the word contraception, specifically, there's a lot of words. Even the word Trinity is not in Holy Scripture. So how do we take Holy Scripture, the early traditions of the. The early Christians, and understand how to apply those to the modern life? And, you know, I. So the teaching exists. I just think it's not clear to enough Catholics.

[Ali Stuckey]

Is it possible for the Pope speaking out of authority, not just sending like a tweet or something, but speaking out of authority? Is it possible for him to be wrong in. In accordance with the Catholic feel?

[Lila Rose]

Not when he is speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals.

[Ali Stuckey]

Which is rare. Right?

[Lila Rose]

Which is rare.

[Ali Stuckey]

That doesn't happen very often.

[Lila Rose]

It's rare. Exactly. That's exactly right. And for the whole of Christendom. So it has to be a directive for this is for all. This is binding for all Christians.

[Ali Stuckey]

What's an example of that?

[Lila Rose]

And encyclical would be an example of that. And these are very formal, beautifully written. I mean, they're so rich. Oh my gosh. But they're these beautifully written, like Humanae Vitae as an example, condemning abortion and contraception. Right. And it really makes the philosophical case for. It makes the theological case for. And there are these like rich documents that are just carefully articulated. I mean, every letter is carefully articulated because it's binding for Mother Church not just today, but for all time. And you know, they're rare. There's not like endless encyclicals, but you're gonna get maybe a few in in any given papacy.

[Ali Stuckey]

Another pause to tell you about EveryLife. This is America's pro life diaper company. And you might be thinking, isn't every diaper company pro life? Like, shouldn't they be pro babies? They can sell more diapers that way. Unfortunately, that's not true. A lot of major diaper companies actually donate your dollars to pro abortion politicians and organizations. You don't want to be a part of that. You want to get your diapers and your baby supplies like their awesome shampoo and body wash and baby lotion from a company that you know is unapologetically pro life. They are supporting pro life causes organizations. Right now. They're sending diapers and wipes to affected areas in Texas after the flood floods. They're supporting all of their pregnant and adopting employees. And y' all their products really, really work. I would not be using EveryLife diapers if they didn't work. Nobody has time for diapers that don't work. I can say that as a mom of three. If you're a mom. You know what I mean? Every life diapers are awesome. They blow the competition out of the water. Also they have amazing lotion and body wash that is tear free. Dermatologist tested, all so good. Go to everylife.com use code ALI10. You'll get 10% off your first order today. That's everylife.com code ALI10. Okay, here's a question that I have and it's not supposed to be Antagonistic, but it goes on based on something you just said about a lot of Catholics being uncategized. And as a Protestant, I'm sure that you get a lot of messages and comments from Protestants saying you shouldn't be Catholic. And here's why. I get a ton of messages. And so sometimes when I talk about, you know, my Protestant beliefs, people will be like, why do you feel the need to talk about this? I'm like, I get so many messages, some of them from like, totally well meaning Catholics who are just devout Catholics and they love me and they want me to know what Catholic doctrines are you.

[Lila Rose]

I was gonna say the Catholics love you.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes. And we have like a great. And then sometimes, as I'm sure you get from the evangelical side, sometimes they're super antagonistic and rude and like, you know, not persuasive. And I'm not saying that's indicative of Catholics. That just happens to be indicative of some online discourse. But something that I hear a lot is that the church has always been so clear on this and. Or xyz, whatever it is, and Protestantism has given way to division and the Catholic Church is unified, but Protestantism, the fruit of it is this dissension and all of these denominations. And yet when you look at statistically what professing Catholics say they believe and what professing Protestants say they believe, it seems to me if we are to believe a Pew research or something like that, that Protestants, when it comes to things like abortion, when it comes to things like homosexuality, statistically we're a lot more united on this is what the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, Abortion is a sin and should be illegal. Not just here, but also in South America. Whereas it's like 68% of Catholics, according to Pew Research, people call themselves Catholics.

[Lila Rose]

Well, I think that's the decision.

[Ali Stuckey]

Are like, say that they're pro choice. And so my question is, if, like the Catholic Church is a bastion of unity, why are professing Catholics so disunified when it comes to. To these really big moral theological issues? It was like, I'll have to look it up. A huge. It was like 70% of Catholics believe that non Christians can go to heaven, according to Pew research. That's like huge.

[Lila Rose]

Well, that. Let's set that one aside for a minute. Because it's like, what do you mean by a non Christian going to heaven? Because God can do whatever he wants because he's God and he's not bound to our ideas of him. He is God. So could there be someone at the moment of death that Jesus appears to them, you know, and they're given the opportunity to say yes to God and his love. Absolutely. So in that sense, it's a non Christian.

[Ali Stuckey]

I would call that, I would call them a Christian. I would say if they, well, of.

[Lila Rose]

Course they're a Christian in heaven. There are only Christians in heaven. That's true. So I think, so I think these, again, these words might mean even different things to people and might be lending some of the confusion. But listen, I would have to look at that particular study. I do know for a fact, I would agree with you, that especially if it's a Catholic in name only, kind of like the Easter Catholic, the Christmas Catholic. They're not a daily, certainly not a daily Mass Catholic and they're not a weekly Mass Catholic. Right. This is not something that is, you know, they don't even understand the first thing of, oh, if you miss mass on a. More on a Sunday, unless of some significant reason or illness, that's a, that's a mortal sin. Like it's a big deal. You don't do that. Or if you do that, you go to confession afterwards. Those Catholics, I would guess, I don't know. The study that you looked at, based on my experience and this, the research I've seen, they're going to be pretty pro life and pretty down the line on, largely speaking on sexual ethics. There's still going to be confusion even on contraception and ivf, things of this nature. But I think that cohort, they're doing the weekly gathering, as God has commanded, of worship of the Mass. Right. So I think it would depend on the groups we're comparing, quite frankly, because I do know the idea of I'm a believer, I'm a Christian, or I'm an evangelical can be very watered down, you know, here in, in the United States and globally in terms of what that means with morality. Right. I think what matters is not so much. I think two things matter. The teaching itself, right. What does the teaching say about matters of faith and morals? And is it true or not? Right. Is what the Catholic Church is saying true or not? And then number two, the fruit does matter. Like you're saying the fruit does matter, but you have to look at the full picture of the, the fruit. And for the Catholic Church, we look at 2000 years of Christendom and we look at the sacraments and.

[Ali Stuckey]

Which of course Protestants would dispute because we don't believe that the Catholic Church was established by Jesus 2,000 years ago.

[Lila Rose]

Okay.

[Ali Stuckey]

I know that's what, you know, Catholic teaching teaches.

[Lila Rose]

But when do you think it was established?

[Ali Stuckey]

Don't believe that. We believe that Jesus created the global church and he created Christians. And when he says to Peter on this rock, I will build my church, we don't believe that he's making Peter a pope. And when we look at, like, I hear Catholics say a lot that, you know, we are worshiping how the earliest Christians worshiped. And this is historic Christianity. But the only infallible, inerrant and totally authoritative record of the early church that we have is the Bible. I think, I think Catholics would agree on that. The only inerrant one.

[Lila Rose]

Right, but it's only inerrant because there was a church council that came together to declare it inerrant, because we believe.

[Ali Stuckey]

In errant, because the Holy Spirit inspired it. And I don't think Protestants would dispute everything that Catholic councils have, you know, have agreed upon throughout the time. But we would say, okay, if we look at Acts, if we look at the epistles, do we see Roman Catholicism, like, is there mention of a pontiff of Rome or a vicar of Christ? Is there a mention of, of like praying to Mary or praying to the saints? There's, to me, I see, I see zero implication of those things at all. There is no command to pray or to venerate or honor Mary at all. There is no talk of Peter being the head of the church. And so I don't see a reflection of Roman Catholic doctrine and worship in the earliest record of how the early Christians worshiped in Acts in the epistles. So when I hear it's 2,000 years old, like, well, then why don't we see that in the Bible?

[Lila Rose]

Well, I would argue that we do see it in the Bible. And you do see Peter taking on teaching authority in the Bible in Acts. And you do see there, if you look at the early church's history, right? And it's not, it's not captured in Holy Scripture, because Holy Scripture, I think it ends as it. I don't want to get wrong here, but is it 70 A.D. i mean, it really doesn't.

[Ali Stuckey]

Decades after.

[Lila Rose]

It doesn't go much further than that. So there's a whole world of Christianity that happens after the canon of the Bible concludes time wise. Now, it wasn't established for a few hundred years after that. Right. In terms of this is the canon of the Bible, but there's a whole world and there's a, there's a lot of documents and writings from the church fathers which are so rich, where you learn about how they applied what that early church was doing just a decade after Christ or two decades after Christ. When St. Paul's you know, traveling around and preaching at people, you not just see what they were doing in just a few decades after Christ, but then what they were doing 100 years after Christ and 200 years after Christ and how they passed on the traditions that were established by Jesus Christ. Now, a tradition that's established in, you know, first century, you know, Roman Empire, right, will inherently have a different context in 21st century America, of course, but the core will be the same. So, for example, Eucharist, this is my bread, this is my body, this is my blood given for you. Eat and drink, right. And coming together in the breaking of the bread, which is talked about in the Book of Acts or the fact that they would do preaching, right, as the Liturgy of the Word, often in the synagogues in just the decades after Christ resurrected, and then they would unascended and then they would do the breaking of the bread in quite privately, because that was more controversial and that was the Christian, you know, element. The preaching of the Word could be more what was. Had been done in the synagogue historically. So that's what the Mass is. It's the, it's the Liturgy of the Word and it's the liturgy of the Eucharist. It's going to look different in a 21st century American church than it looked in a synagogue and a house, church or a home, a private family home back in the time of, you know, the early, early Roman Empire. And then you have the Christians going underground with Roman persecution, and you have the, the Christian Christianity spreading globally and how it's now taken a new life in all these different cultures and continents. But you have core elements that remain the same. And those core elements are Eucharist, their baptism, their confession, their confirmation, their marriage.

[Ali Stuckey]

Dunking baptism is what Jesus did and what we see throughout Scripture. We don't actually see a baby being baptized.

[Lila Rose]

You think? So you're saying you don't think that Catholics baptize their babies actually, or.

[Ali Stuckey]

No, I think that the. Well, I think the model of baptism that we see in the New Testament is dunking baptism after someone has become a believer. I don't think, like I have Presbyterian friends. I don't think it's. So the head is.

[Lila Rose]

The head is fully covered with water. You need to. You're not putting the baby underneath the water in baptism.

[Ali Stuckey]

Right. But you are covering the head doesn't support the idea of sprinkling babies. I wouldn't. That's that's what, that's what the protest. I mean, most Protestants believe. I think even Presbyterians, my Presbyterian friends can correct me because they do baby baptism, but they, I think they have different beliefs about what that baby baptism actually represents than Catholics do, whereas I'm Baptist. And so we believe only in believers. Baptism after you believe in your heart, confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, you probably even go through like a new Christian's class just to make sure you really understand the gospel and have really accepted it. And then we see it as an outward symbol of an inward regeneration. And we believe that that's what we see throughout Scripture, that baptism always followed belief and that Jesus gives us his example of baptism.

[Lila Rose]

But in follow the belief of adults. You're right. And heads of households. A couple important points. In Acts, there is scripture that talks about the whole household being baptized after the. The ascent of the.

[Ali Stuckey]

Of the lady of the household. I think the safe assumption is that probably the whole household believed.

[Lila Rose]

But if you're a child, you wouldn't be excluded. Jesus said so many times, let the little ones come unto me.

[Ali Stuckey]

And we believe the children can get baptized. You don't have to be an adult, so.

[Lila Rose]

But it's not biblical, Allie. It's not biblical to say that the children were excluded from baptism.

[Ali Stuckey]

I didn't say that.

[Lila Rose]

But you're saying that the child. If they can't physically profess the words of Jesus and have this, you know, belief, whatever that means exactly. For a little child, then they can't be baptized. And I think that's.

[Ali Stuckey]

I would argue that that is the Baptist position, that baptism should always follow belief.

[Lila Rose]

But I would say include belief.

[Ali Stuckey]

Even if you're. It could be three. You could be three years old. But no, we don't. I mean, we just don't believe in baby baptism.

[Lila Rose]

But I'm just saying.

[Ali Stuckey]

And I don't think we see a clear example of that in Scripture.

[Lila Rose]

Well, I think it is pretty clear in the teachings of Jesus about children and in the baptizing of household. And there's no note about excluding the baby. I don't think.

[Ali Stuckey]

Well, we don't also. We also don't know that there's a baby. That's an assumption that there's a baby and they're baptized. We don't have no idea. The youngest could be 12. So that's. That is true.

[Lila Rose]

But typically whole households are going to inevitably involve some children, very young children.

[Ali Stuckey]

Seems like a leap.

[Lila Rose]

So I don't. I don't think so. But Then you look at, you look at just the traditions of the, the early Christians. You don't have to call them Catholics in this moment if you, if you're not comfortable with that. But they baptize their. Their babies. This is a tradition that's 2,000 years old. It's actually.

[Ali Stuckey]

Do we see that in Scripture?

[Lila Rose]

Well, we were just talking about scripture and you said, well, the household didn't explicitly say baby. So you said, I don't buy that. But I'm saying, well, if you look at how they practiced baptism in the early church, they were baptizing their babies. That was a common practice.

[Ali Stuckey]

So where do we, where do we read that? I don't disbelieve that necessarily, because there's a lot of things that the early church practiced that we don't necessarily practice today and shouldn't practice today. That's why Paul had so many letters to write. Next sponsor is Field of Greens. So Field of Greens makes sure that you are getting all of your vegetables and your fruits in every day. I don't get my vegetables and fruits in every day when I'm not drinking my Field of Greens. I'll just be honest with you. Your girl does not like vegetables. I mean, there's very few vegetables that I like, and I don't really feel like making them most of the time. Field of Greens ensures that I'm getting all of the vegetables that I need. And what's different about Field of Greens versus some competitors is that all of the fruits and vegetables that are included in their ingredients are actually organic. So unfortunately, a lot of those powdered green drinks, they're using vegetables and fruits that have been sprayed with pesticides. You don't have to worry about that with Field of Greens. It is top notch, high quality, great tasting, and organic. If you go to fieldofgreens.com and use my code Ali, you get 20% off and free shipping. That's fieldofgreens.com code. Ali.

[Lila Rose]

I have a question for you. When do you think that you're saying the Catholic Church was not founded with Jesus Christ and with Peter? So I'm curious when you think it was founded.

[Ali Stuckey]

I don't know exactly when it was founded. I know that. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm sure that you know more about Catholic history than I do. But from my understanding, the establishment of the official papacy was really kind of rallied around about 500 years after Christ. Like, would you say Gregory the First? I know that you probably wouldn't say that. He was the first pope, Because I know Catholics assert that Peter was the first pope, but if I remember correctly, there was something significant about Gregory the first being like a singular pope, because before that, there was debate over how many popes and which and which pope was what and what kind of authority he had. So it seems like authority solidified, at least, if I can say it more generously or charitably, about 500 years after Christ died.

[Lila Rose]

I wouldn't read it that way. I would say more that the Bishop of Rome was given a special deference. And there was debate later on, especially with Orthodoxy and Catholicism, about, okay, well, who gets. Who's kind of the final say amongst the bishops, or who's that? You could say a tiebreaker of sorts, or who's kind of. Where does it. You could say the word solidify the authority, or where does it kind of land ultimately, in the Bishop of Rome, you know, the Holy See. Peter is where, you know, the Pope is where it lands. And so there was definitely, at a certain point, debate about that, especially when you had bishops that didn't want to obey Rome. And then you have the schism, right? So that did happen. And that's, in my view, tragic, because I think we're all meant to be one. But I think that Jesus didn't create his church to leave her without authority and without guidance, because he said, the gates of hell will not prevail. And he always said, well, that's not necessarily to popes, but he did intend for us to be one. He did intend for there to be one teaching. He didn't intend for there to be one breaking of the bread. And I think right now, you go globally to any Catholic Church, and you're going to see the same things. You're going to see different cultural elements. Of course, we can see this core, things that are the same. The breaking of the bread, the liturgy of the Mass. The same readings are said, you know, by millions or a billion Catholics, every single.

[Ali Stuckey]

Something beautiful about that.

[Lila Rose]

But. But I. But I think that's. It's not just a Catholic thing. I think that's meant to be a Christian experience, that we are all united in that way. And I. I hunger for that. I know, like, I'm gonna guess your heart is there, too, that we want Christian unity. We want people to know us by our unity, by our love, and by the sign of Jesus, of course, working in us and the Holy Spirit working in us. And I. I think that there's. I think knowing our history as Christians is so important. I know you said, well, you know, just because the early church fathers said it, doesn't mean it's true. Well, I think we have to really examine what they were saying, what they were teaching, and look at the trajectory of Christianity when we're dealing with today, with modernity. This upsetting, quite frankly, of traditional and this upsetting of history, where it's like, we're going to decide because we're. We're the smartest ones on the. On the block. And it's like, wait a minute, there's 2,000 years of other smart human beings post Christ. You know, we should. We should take a look.

[Ali Stuckey]

Well, I agree with that. They said and did that a lot of people who deconstruct, who think they're the first people to ask difficult theological and apologetic questions.

[Lila Rose]

The me and my Bible thing, I mean, we should read Holy Scripture. We should. This is the word, the words of God. They have the power to create incredible inspiration and change in us. I mean, that is. That is a gift that God has given us beautifully. So. But it's not just me and my Bible. One man, an island. It's meant to be me and my Bible and the church and the communion of the brethren and.

[Ali Stuckey]

And Protestants believe that. We don't believe. It's just me and my Bible, but we do believe in the authority of the local church. We do believe in theologians and mentors and teachers. There are some traditions that we hold to. It's really like what I see with Catholics and Protestants. It's really not unity versus disunity, because as we've already talked about, there's plenty of disunity within the Catholic Church, even if the catechism is clear. Like, I just had a sweet Catholic older couple come up to me the other day, and they said, you know, we were so excited to go to Santa Fe. I guess there is some Catholic. He said, it's something about, like, it's important for Catholic something in Santa Fe. And he said, what the. Would it be the bishop? I forget which leader it was or the priest maybe of the church that they were going to go to sent an email out, like, opposing Trump's immigration policy and supporting our LGBTQ brothers and sisters. And obviously, we have a lot of problems with that within Protestantism, too. So I'm not singling out Catholics. But it seems to me like even if the Catholic Church is clear, there is plenty of disunity within the Catholic Church. Well, there's.

[Lila Rose]

The Catholic Church isn't going to tell you what political label to take on. And it's not going to prescribe very specific political policies. That would be wrong. But it is going to provide principles. And you might have any number of priests who will say, well, I'm going to take the principle and say you should vote for xyz. And they have, you know, to some degree the freedom to say that they should be. Maybe they're going to get in trouble with a bishop, you know, eventually if they're being too aggressive, because they're not supposed to be telling people how to vote necessarily. Right. In terms of a specific candidate. But there are principles that we all share, including on immigration, including on respect for persons who struggle with same sex attraction and how that, you know, plays out in even political discourse. And that doesn't mean that they are supporting open borders or they're supporting, you know, gay marriage or anything. No. The church is very clear that a nation has a right to national sovereignty and a right to borders. And borders are a necessary and good thing for the protection of a nation. And that, you know, sex is for one man, one woman in a marriage, and any sexual activity outside of that is wrong. So the church is not. There's no confusion on that point. But the opinions, any number of Catholics will have opinions. Right. And that's a normal thing, I think with Protestantism is, you know, and there's so much to Protestantism. There's Baptists. Right. There's Presbyterians, like you mentioned earlier. So I don't want to paint too broadly with one brush, but you go to a church service in any member of a Protestant church on a Sunday morning anywhere in the world, it will be very different in terms of what you're getting and even being taught. You go to a Catholic Mass. It is the same Mass in every church, Catholic church, around the world. The same words are being spoken in the liturgy of the Word. The same words are being spoken in the liturgy of the Eucharist. The same Eucharist is being celebrated. And I think that's the unity that, you know, is so beautiful to me.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah. I just wonder why. Okay, let me read some statistics and you can tell me now. I. I don't think that I will.

[Lila Rose]

Say, by the way, thank you for having this combo.

[Ali Stuckey]

What?

[Lila Rose]

I. Thank you. I love this convo.

[Ali Stuckey]

Okay. And we only have a few minutes.

[Lila Rose]

I respect you so much and I appreciate.

[Ali Stuckey]

Well, me too. And Bri is telling me that we have to wrap soon. So I want to say this. And then I have one other question on my show.

[Lila Rose]

Allie.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes. I have a question about. About Mary, because that Is sure, maybe like one of my biggest points of confusion. And okay, so we're talking about the fruit and this. I don't know if it is completely fair because who knows how Pew is defining Catholic and evangelical. And evangelical is like a part of Protestant and they're weighing Catholics as a whole. So maybe that's not completely fair. Let me just say that up front. But this is according to peer research. So 60% of Catholics believe that abortion should be legal in all or most cases, versus 27% of evangelicals. They look at Argentina specifically. 76% of Protestants want abortion illegal, versus only 59% of Catholics. 62% of Catholics believe casual sex is fine, versus only 36% of evangelicals. Only 33% of Catholics say homosexuality is a sin versus 62% of. Well, there's a distinction there.

[Lila Rose]

They're saying that to have same sex attractions is not the sin, but that's different than the gay lifestyle. So that. I think that's also just how the questions are asked. But keep going.

[Ali Stuckey]

Maybe that maybe Catholics have like a different understanding.

[Lila Rose]

Like the word. Like when you say this is a. Is being homosexual a sin? What does that mean? Is having same, like in intense same sex attraction and desire a sin? No, because you don't have control over that. What would be a sin is to act on it.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah, we probably have some disagreements there. I think it's a disordered desire. No, I agree at the very.

[Lila Rose]

We agree. But if your young child is severely tempted to something, that doesn't mean they are sinning by being tempted to be tempted is not to sin. To act upon the temptation is to sin.

[Ali Stuckey]

So the question is, with all of the unity that you just described and all of the differences within Protestantism that you just described, even evangelical churches, Evangelical could be Baptist, it could be a different denomination. And yet, at least according to these, these statistics, which people can say, I don't trust Pew research and that's their prerogative. But evangelicals are actually a lot more aligned with what the Bible actually teaches on those things. And we're a lot more unified. So it might be true that you could go to our local congregations and you could hear a different sermon, you could hear a different passage, you could hear different.

[Lila Rose]

How do you define evangelical? Is that a Baptist? Like, who is an evangelical?

[Ali Stuckey]

An evangelical Christian would be someone who believes in the gospel, that you have to be saved by Jesus Christ in order to be saved, and that we are evangelistic in our faith, that we are going out and we are sharing the gospel and we are trying to get people to be. So is there like a mainline Protestants who are like, I would consider that progressive Episcopal, for example, a lot of Methodists, even some Presbyterians are not evangelical.

[Lila Rose]

Who would be the earliest evangelical Christian in your view?

[Ali Stuckey]

I don't know. I'm not sure who the earliest.

[Lila Rose]

And the reason I'm asking is because I think you're right in that like if you look at mainland Protestantism and you look at Catholics, especially the Catholics kind of in culture, but not necessarily the Catholics in practice. Right. You're gonna see those numbers. I'm not denying those numbers. And I think today there's this born again Christian sort of identity that's very beautiful that a lot of people experience where they say I just want to 100% follow Jesus, it's just whatever he says. And they are willing to do the harder things morally. But that doesn't mean that the teachings of the Catholic church or the 2000 years of fruit there. I know we're debating about the history isn't real. It means that there's a catechesis crisis in the Catholic Church.

[Ali Stuckey]

That's what I wanted to ask if that's what you think the answer is. For sure.

[Lila Rose]

For sure. There's a catechesis crisis in the Catholic Church. And I would say there's a, there's a catechesis crisis formation crisis largely in civilization broadly.

[Ali Stuckey]

More broadly speaking, I agree that I think Protestants do too. I think we should employ like the Westminster Catechism. I think we should do a better job of knowing the Nicene Creed, the Apostles Creed, that's something we agree on is the Nicene Creed. And I think that we should do a better job as Protestants of knowing those things too. So I'm with you on that. Last sponsor for the day is Patriot Mobile. Patriot Mobile is America's own only Christian conservative wireless provider. If you want another way to vote with your dollar, stop funding the left with the companies you support. Then you need to switch to Patriot Mobile. They make switching really easy. They've got a 100% US based customer service team. You can upgrade your phone, you can keep your phone, you can keep your number if you want to. It is so simple. You'll still get the same great coverage that you're used to, but you won't have to worry about funding these progressive causes. All you have to do is go to patriotmobile.com alli you can use my code Alli for a free month of service. That's an awesome deal. Go to patriotmobile.com ally code. Alli. Okay, last question. Sorry, Bree, but I have to ask it, and I know it's a big one. Okay, If. And this is genuine. This is not, like, a trap question I really like. And I asked Trent Horn this, too. And. And I did not. I don't think I got a sufficient answer. If Mary is the queen of heaven, if she is carrying our prayers, she has a supernatural ability, according to Catholic teaching, to understand multiple languages, to hear multiple prayers happening at once, I guess millions at one time, and then carry them to God. That is a hugely significant role.

[Lila Rose]

Well, just to be clear, she doesn't have. She did not have that ability when she was here.

[Ali Stuckey]

No, but now.

[Lila Rose]

But that's only because she's in the beatific vision.

[Ali Stuckey]

Okay?

[Lila Rose]

She's one with God. I mean, in heaven, we are in total communion with God. So that power is not. Just to be clear, that power is not of Mary's power. That is power.

[Ali Stuckey]

That is God has given her that power.

[Lila Rose]

Well, it's God's power, to be clear.

[Ali Stuckey]

Okay. He has given it to Mary in a way that he hasn't necessarily given to others. That's the Catholic teaching.

[Lila Rose]

Not quite. No.

[Ali Stuckey]

So everyone has the same power that Mary does.

[Lila Rose]

The saints in heaven have the same power to hear the prayers of. Of the faithful.

[Ali Stuckey]

Just like Mary, any Christian in heaven has the power in heaven to hear prayers. That's Catholic teaching.

[Lila Rose]

Yes.

[Ali Stuckey]

Okay. My question is we could.

[Lila Rose]

And that's in Revelation. That's in Revelations. The prayers rising up to the saints in heaven. That's a. That's a Revelation scene.

[Ali Stuckey]

Revelation, yeah. So the idea of praying. We don't.

[Lila Rose]

Praying to the saints in heaven is a Revelations concept.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes. We would disagree on what that actually means. And if. If the people who are in heaven are carrying prayers to God. My question about Mary, okay, whatever her power is, she's. She is set apart from. Well, she's the mother of God. The mother of God. I mean, come on. You say a rosary.

[Lila Rose]

She's the mother of Jesus.

[Ali Stuckey]

You say a rosary kind of every day.

[Lila Rose]

Yeah, but the rosary is meditating on the life of Christ. To be clear, the rosary isn't an obsession with Mary per se, although she's pretty amazing. The rosary is a meditation on the life of Christ. It's literally a meditation on the scenes of the gospel because you have the different mysteries of the rosary. The whole idea of praying those prayers is to get into a meditative sort of habit of thinking about what you're praying about, which is, you know, in the joyful mysteries. Right. It's the nativity of Jesus. You know, it's the Annunciation when the angel comes to Mary, and then you have the visitation when Elizabeth comes to Mary, and then you have the birth and nativity of Jesus Christ, da, da.

[Ali Stuckey]

Which we all believe is inerrant and beautiful and good, and we should be reflecting on all of those. But Mary is special in Catholic doctrine, of course, not just as the mother of Jesus, but she's discussed a lot, and I hear a lot. Mother Mary pray for us. Discussed a lot.

[Lila Rose]

Because she is the mother of Jesus, to be clear. Yeah.

[Ali Stuckey]

More so than in Protestantism, though. It's definitely a different level of honoring within Catholicism. My question is if she is to be honored in that way, if she is to be prayed to, and I know that she is, Catholics pray through her. Yeah. Why don't we ever see that in Acts? Why don't we see that in any of the Epistles? Like, why is she never mentioned once? Why does Jesus rebuff every attempt to honor her in a special way, except for one time when he's on the cross? Like, why don't we see any example of praying to or through Mary in that way in Scripture at all?

[Lila Rose]

You do see it in Scripture, in.

[Ali Stuckey]

The Epistle in the early church.

[Lila Rose]

You see it in Scriptures, most importantly, in the life of Jesus. Jesus Christ and what he said and how he interacted with his mother and in the.

[Ali Stuckey]

It's kind of rude sometimes, I think to us it seems.

[Lila Rose]

Well, I think with a modern lens, you might consider it rudeness. But we know that God is not rude. And Jesus was never rude to his mother.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes. Jesus had the greatest cross that way.

[Lila Rose]

And I think he's a modern lens, though.

[Ali Stuckey]

I think. Of course he did.

[Lila Rose]

Can I read you from Holy Scripture?

[Ali Stuckey]

Sure.

[Lila Rose]

You said, what is Mary? There's nothing about Mary and not much about Mary in Scripture. Not much about Mary. There's actually a lot about Mary in Scripture.

[Ali Stuckey]

Well, I didn't say not much about Mary in Scripture. I said that there's nothing in the Epistles or in Acts that shows us to pray to or through Mary or on her.

[Lila Rose]

She might have still been around. She was probably still around quietly doing the Lord's work. That's probably why.

[Ali Stuckey]

But don't you think she would have been talked about at all?

[Lila Rose]

Not necessarily.

[Ali Stuckey]

I don't think Paul would have written about her.

[Lila Rose]

Not necessarily, no. I mean, there might have been letters that we don't have that Paul wrote specifically to women, saying, you know, learn from the mother of Jesus? I don't know. But that's not. I don't know either. We don't know. But what you do know is this. This is from Holy Scripture. This is the Magnificat. When Mary is praising the Lord for choosing her to carry his passage. But she says, my soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord. My spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant. From this day, all generations will call me blessed. For the Almighty has done great things for me. From this day, all generations will call me blessed.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes.

[Lila Rose]

And that is what Catholics are doing and some Protestants to this day, literally when they pray the rosary and when they honor Mary and when they celebrate Mary, the mother of Jesus.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah. I don't think that we disagree in calling her blessed, but I don't think you think she was very blessed. But we don't believe that she is carrying our prayers to Jesus or that she has the ability to do that or that she's the Queen of heaven.

[Lila Rose]

Well, just to be clear, when you say.

[Ali Stuckey]

Or that she was immaculately consumed.

[Lila Rose]

Just to be clear, when she's carrying our prayers to Jesus, we can pray directly to Jesus. We should. And to the Holy Spirit and to God the Father, to the whole Trinity. Mary isn't meant to be a mother for all Christians like Jesus gave her upon his death on the cross before he took his last breath, he said, behold your mother and behold your son. Everything Jesus did was with intention in Holy Scripture and what is passed on by the, by the first, you know, by those who you know, wrote recorded. Right. By the disciples who recorded it. And when Jesus said behold your mother, behold your son, that wasn't just a little thing randomly for John. That was. That just got happened to be included. Cause remember, I think it was Saint. Was it Saint John wrote, if all the things could be recorded, it would take endless tomes to record them of the life of Jesus Christ. So it's impossible to include it all. They chose to include that. Ali, there's a reason they chose to include that. Because Mary is not meant to just be, you know, God is endlessly generous. Christ is endlessly generous. Everything he did was for the good of Christians. Right. Long term into eternity. His mother is also for our good, to be able to be an intercessor for us and to be a role model for us. That doesn't mean his prayer. We can't go directly to Christ. But I ask you, Allie, can you pray for me? You know, I just asked my husband this morning, can you pray for me? Can I go to Jesus myself? Of course I can. But why wouldn't I want the saints in heaven who are forever glorifying God in perfect communion with him, to pray for me in a special way? Mama Mary, who Jesus literally gave to his disciples, to be a mother, and then by transfer to the rest of Christendom.

[Ali Stuckey]

How do you interpret this verse? In Luke, Luke 8, starting in 19, then his mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. And he was told, your mother and your brothers are standing outside desiring to see you. But he answered them, my mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it. So Jesus has multiple opportunities in Scripture to specifically call out Mary and honor Mary above the others, and he chooses not to repeatedly.

[Lila Rose]

So I disagree with that. I think he does frequently honor his mother, especially that first scene in the wedding feast at Cana, when he talks about, do whatever she tells you. Like, she literally. He literally gives the command for the events and solving the problem of, there's no wine. We're out of wine. It's embarrassing for the guests. His, you know, the steward comes over and says, there's no wine. And he says, basically, talk to my mother about it. She will do it. And then he performs the miracle. She prompts the first miracle, but to Luke 8. So you can say, like you said at first, and by the way, I want to tell everyone about this app. It's called Truthly, and it is an AI app that has all of faith and morals, theologically and morally correct, unlike your typical AI. So it's called Truthly, but you just type in, does Luke 8 disrespect Mary? Right. In some way. Right.

[Ali Stuckey]

And I probably shouldn't have said that earlier. Disrespect. Cause like you said, and you said it completely rightly, it's not possible for Jesus to be rude or to be disrespectful. But what I meant by that is, if we are looking for Jesus to give her special treatment, it might seem to us, well, he rebuffed her, actually.

[Lila Rose]

Well, it's not a rebuff. It's a teaching opportunity. And, you know, quite frankly, Allie, we weren't there, but I'm gonna guess, like, Mary knew. Mary was very wise and loving and obedient. She knew, like, the Lord is gonna teach through this. And, you know, this is Truthfully's explanation, which is based on the catechism, by the way. But it says, you know, Catholic teaching emphasizes at first, it might seem as if Jesus is downplaying his relationship with Mary. However, Catholic teaching emphasizes that this passage is not about disrespecting Mary, but rather expanding the understanding of spiritual kinship. In fact, Mary is the perfect example of someone who hears the word of God. So it was a side phrase and does it her yes to God. Therefore, this passage underscores her exemplary role in hearing and obeying God words. So it's basically saying, you're not special just because you're my biological mother. You're special because you said you yes to God. And he's using this moment to say, all of you can be special too. It's not just my mother who is special, chosen by me, of course. She's extremely special. But I'm inviting you all to be children of my mother, to be brothers and sisters of me by hearing my word and acting on it. So he's beautifully allowing Mary to be an example of what true Christian living means.

[Ali Stuckey]

Okay, last thing I just want to clarify in the wedding at. At the wedding at Cana, or Cana, I guess you could pronounce like that Jesus said to her, so Mary says they have no wine. Jesus said to her, woman, what does that have to do with me? My hour has not yet come. And then his mother said to the servants, do whatever he tells you so, not do whatever Mary tells you. No, no.

[Lila Rose]

Yeah, of course.

[Ali Stuckey]

I'm sorry if I missed it. So to me it seems like Jesus had the opportunity to revere Mary in certain ways and he didn't. And obviously that's not what Catholic doctrine teaches. And I'm not trying to close this off.

[Lila Rose]

You're saying you don't think he was respecting her with that or revering her with that?

[Ali Stuckey]

No, I don't think he was specially revering her to the point that Catholic doctrine teaches. I promise we will have a part two, but I've gotten multiple messages and I want people to hear fully and honestly what the Catholic perspective is. And so I'm not trying to cut Lila off at all. We can have a part two. We could do it on her show.

[Lila Rose]

Allie's best.

[Ali Stuckey]

Go to her show and you can see all of her amazing work and she does absolutely incredible work and the anti abortion pro life movement. And I am so thankful for her and I'm so thankful that we can have these discussions and still be friends and be passionate about it and still respect the heck out of each other. So I will always support Lila and thank you, Ally, for that.

[Lila Rose]

And I'm a huge fan of yours.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes. Well, thank you so much for this spirited discussion. It was super fun and I hope people liked it. I hope people weren't too stressed out. Thank you so much Lila.

[Lila Rose]

They're like stressing over here and I'm here speaks I say do whatever she tells you. I met I did not mis you.

[Ali Stuckey]

Might have her I could have misheard it but just in case other people.

[Lila Rose]

Heard it the way did.

[Ali Stuckey]

Well, thank you so much.

[Lila Rose]

Thanks Ally.

[Ali Stuckey]

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[Lila Rose]

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