Podcast Summary: Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey

Episode 1232 | John Mark Comer’s Sketchy Teachings & the Penal Substitutionary Atonement Debate
Date: August 20, 2025
Host: Allie Beth Stuckey (A)
Blaze Podcast Network

Overview

In this episode, Allie Beth Stuckey delves deep into a theological controversy brewing within Evangelical Christianity, sparked by John Mark Comer’s public skepticism of Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA)—the doctrine that Christ bore the specific penalty for humanity’s sins on the cross. Stuckey dissects Comer’s influence, unpacks the book Lamb of the Free, gives a concise but robust explanation of PSA, addresses historical objections, and highlights why this doctrine is crucial to the Christian faith. Throughout, she quotes and critiques major voices in this ongoing debate, ultimately defending the traditional view of atonement.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Talk about Penal Substitutionary Atonement?

• The conversation began when John Mark Comer, a popular evangelical author and former pastor, endorsed a new academic book (Lamb of the Free) that claims to “knock out” penal substitutionary atonement.
• According to Stuckey, “This is something that is going on in the Christian evangelical world right now. … It really, really matters for Christians to get this right.” [04:39]
• PSA is not a new debate, but Comer’s influence and his book recommendations have reignited it.

2. Who is John Mark Comer and What Does He Teach?

• John Mark Comer is widely read among young evangelicals, especially Gen Z.
• Author of The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry and Practicing the Way. He advocates spiritual disciplines, a slower pace of life, and has stirred controversy for leaning on mystical practices and, at times, making light comments about socialism.
• Stuckey critiques Comer’s openness to socialism:
  “Even a tongue-in-cheek joke about maybe at least a little bit subscribing to an ideology that is so disgusting and evil and murderous, I was like, okay, well, I can see a little bit of what is happening here…” [13:13]
• Comer’s approach repackages older “spiritual formation” and “emergent” ideas, drawing on ancient Catholic, orthodox, and sometimes Eastern practices. Critics argue this blurs lines with unbiblical mysticism.

3. What is Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA)?

• Definition: Jesus Christ took the punishment for humanity’s sins, acting as a substitute to satisfy God’s justice, so that God can righteously forgive sinners.
• Stuckey explains with Scriptural support:
  • Romans 6:23 (“the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”)
  • Romans 3:25-26, Isaiah 53, 2 Corinthians 5:21
• “It is the belief that Christ’s death was a legal transaction where he endured the penalty deserved by humans, allowing God to forgive sinners without compromising his justice.” [36:23]
• PSA is broadly affirmed in Protestant confessions, rooted in Scripture and articulated by early Church Fathers and Reformers (Justin Martyr, Calvin, Luther).

4. Why Are People Criticizing PSA?

• Critics, including the book Comer praises, claim PSA:
  • Misrepresents God’s justice as merely punitive.
  • Overemphasizes God’s wrath at the expense of His love (1 John 4:8).
  • Implies the unjust punishment of the innocent Jesus.
  • Suggests division in the Trinity.
  • Is a “later invention” (especially the “legal” framing).
• Progressive and Catholic critiques often portray PSA as “cosmic child abuse.” [1:01:32]
• Rilera (author of Lamb of the Free) argues that Jesus’s death is “ahead of us, not instead of us”—a path to union with Christ, not a substitution under wrath.

5. Biblical and Historical Defense of PSA

• Stuckey heavily cites Isaiah 53 and various New Testament passages to show that substitution is a key biblical metaphor.
• Points out that laying hands on Old Testament sacrifices was a symbolic transfer of guilt and foreshadowed Christ.
• “It seems to me that Isaiah 53 is a really good support for penal substitutionary atonement.” [54:08]
• Cites church fathers and Reformers:
  • Justin Martyr: Christ took the curse for the human family.
  • Calvin: Christ satisfied the justice of God and paid sin’s penalty.
  • Luther: Christ became a curse and bore the punishment for us.

6. Responses from Notable Evangelical Leaders

• Andrew Walker: “The denial of penal substitutionary or substitution is a gateway for many other nefarious mishandlings of God’s word. If you can make the text not say what the text teaches, you can make the text do anything you want. Scripture is not a wax nose. John Mark Comer is on a bad trajectory and to be avoided.” [~1:21:00]
• Wesley Huff: “Everything that is true about all the other atonement theories…is true in penal substitutionary atonement. PSA merely remains the most biblically robust, consistent and true of all theories.”
• Denny Burk: “Run as far away as we can from this false teaching. … Relish what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross.” [~1:23:00]
• Scott Aniol: “Doctrine to die for: penal substitutionary atonement.”
• Elisa Childers: Denial of PSA can ultimately lead to denial of the Gospel.

7. John Mark Comer’s Clarification

• Comer posted a follow-up, claiming he found Lamb of the Free highly insightful but could not fully endorse a denial of all substitution.
• He said:
  “I believe the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit were working together to save and redeem us through Jesus’s life, death and resurrection, all motivated by mercy and love while still maintaining justice. Jesus has done for us what we could never, ever, ever do for ourselves.” [Approx. 1:16:00]
• Stuckey remains unconvinced by his backtracking, arguing his initial words showed enthusiastic endorsement:
  “To me, that reads as an endorsement of the idea that Jesus did not die in our place, taking our punishment for sin.” [1:17:17]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the impact of downplaying evil ideologies:
  “Communism has killed more people than fascism has... So when there was like a tongue-in-cheek joke about maybe at least a little bit subscribing to an ideology that is so disgusting and evil and murderous, I was like, okay, well, I can see a little bit of what is happening here...” [13:12]

• John Mark Comer expressing doubt about the ‘sinner goes to hell’ model:

  “If you search for some of the most popular summaries of the gospel in the American church… you are hard pressed to find anything remotely close to that in any of the four gospels of Jesus.”
  (John Mark Comer, via video clip) [21:50]

• Allie’s rebuttal:
  “The Book of John—John 3:16—is one of the Gospels of Jesus. And so we actually see it right there… But that would mean that if you believe that [the epistles are less authoritative], then you don’t believe that the entire Bible is the inerrant, infallible word of God.” [22:43]

• On why PSA matters:
  “If somebody argues against placation—so, placate means to satisfy, or the idea of Christ satisfying the wrath of God—be alert because the Gospel is at stake.” [38:22]

• On Scripture’s teaching:
  “Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows… he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and by his wounds we are healed.” (Isaiah 53, read aloud) [54:10]

• Andrew Walker, on dangers of denying PSA:

  “If you can make the text not say what the text teaches, you can make the text do anything you want. Scripture is not a wax nose. John Mark Comer is on a bad trajectory and to be avoided.” [~1:21:00]

Important Timestamps

• [04:39] – Introduction of PSA and John Mark Comer controversy
• [13:13] – Stuckey critiques Comer’s socialism comments
• [18:50-22:43] – Discussing Comer's gospel summary; JMC video clip; Allie’s rebuttal
• [36:23] – Stuckey defines and defends PSA with biblical references
• [54:08] – Allie reads Isaiah 53 and connects to PSA
• [1:01:32] – Listing and rebutting objections to PSA
• [1:17:17] – Stuckey assesses Comer’s clarification as insufficient
• [~1:21:00+] – Responses from evangelical leaders; warnings about trajectory of PSA rejection

Tone & Style

Allie Beth Stuckey’s tone is conversational, direct, and unapologetically conservative and theological. She weaves in historical and contemporary sources, balancing scriptural explanation with critique, and appeals earnestly for orthodoxy and vigilance in doctrine. She also displays moments of humor and candor, especially when discussing trends in Christian subculture.

Conclusion

Stuckey frames the debate over penal substitutionary atonement as a matter of utmost importance for the health of evangelical faith, warning that deviations—even from influential voices like John Mark Comer—must be met with clarity, charity, and firm doctrinal conviction. Citing both Scripture and contemporary scholarship, she urges listeners to hold fast to the biblical teaching that Christ truly bore our sins and punishment, reconciling us to God.