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Kirkism versus Kellerism which way of evangelism is actually more effective? Tim Keller was very impactful in his apologetics and evangelism work, but Charlie Kirk has reached millions and millions of people through his boldness, not only in politics, but also in the gospel. We've got a raging debate going on right now about which way is better and I will take you through both approaches and what we should be thinking about this as Christians today. If you love this podcast, please subscribe. YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, subscribe on Blaze TV, Google Play, all the places. Leave us a five star review. It helps us out so much. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Constitution Wealth. Christian investors are often shocked to learn that their portfolios include company supporting causes that go against their faith. That's why I trust Constitution Wealth. They screen investment so your money isn't propping up agendas that conflict with Scripture. Visit constitutionwealth.com, for a free consultation. Constitutionwealth.com ally hey guys, welcome to Relatable Happy Wednesday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far. All right, there's been this debate raging online about Charlie Kirk versus Tim Keller. @ first I was a little bit confused about this battle, what the two had to do with each other, but I actually think it sparked a very interesting conversation about how we effectively evangelize in this world that is increasingly hostile to Christianity. So since Charlie Kirk died, there have been several declarations of the death of what is called the Third Way. And the Third Way, if you don't know, many of you already do. But it's an approach to politics and the culture wars and evangelism that was popularized by the late pastor and very influential author Tim Keller. And it essentially argues that the Christian should neither be right nor left and not really down in the nitty gritty of politics and cultural battles, but really stay focused on the gospel. Keller would argue that you engage in politics and culture, but not in the kind of direct, brash way that we see a lot of people on the left and right doing today. So that's what he dubbed the Third way. And in his book Center Church, which I believe he wrote in 2012, he says this. He says the church must neither simply assimilate to the world's values nor isolate itself from the world. And he says the gospel gives us a third way to live in the world yet distinct from it, serving it while holding fast to our Christian distinctives. And honestly, you might listen to that and you might think that sounds pretty good. However Keller does argue that Christians should adopt positions from both sides of the political aisle in order to be biblically faithful. He wrote this in an op ed in the New York Times in 2018, and he argued, quote, the historical Christian positions on social issues do not fit into contemporary political alignments. For example, he says following both the Bible and the early church, Christian Christians should be committed to racial justice and the poor, but also to understanding or to the understanding that sex is only for marriage and for nurturing family. He says one of these views seems liberal and the other looks oppressively conservative. And I'll get into my thoughts on that statement in just a little bit when we dig more into this position. He also wrote a book called Generous justice several years ago in which he asserts that Christians must not only preach the gospel gospel, but also do justice, as Micah6.8 tells us. And he goes on to define justice by looking at different concepts in the Old Testament. And he really makes the case for what we see today as social justice is using the government to try to create some sort of equity or equality of outcomes. I'm not calling him a socialist and I'm not saying he was on the far left, but he certainly had progressive ideas for how Christians should actually carry out Micah6.8 in America today and now, depending on where you are, all of that might sound great to you. And there are certainly parts of this philosophy that appeal to me. I mean, Tim Keller was massively impactful. He led a massive church called Redeemer Prez in Manhattan. He authored 31 books before he died in 2023. And several of his books impacted me, helped shape my faith, especially in high school when I was really digging into theology for the first time. I still recommend of his books to people who want to learn more about Christian apologetics. Reason for God is a huge one. We had to read that my senior year of high school. I am still using and thinking through some of the incredible defenses for the faith that are in that book. I really recommend it to you. Meaning of Marriage is beautiful. We read that when we were engaged. Prodigal God, life changing book, every good endeavor totally changed my perspective on work again. Another book I'm still thinking about that I read like 8 years ago and then over 12 years ago his little book the Freedom of Self Forgetfulness planted the seeds for my first book, you're not Enough. And I quote that book and you're not enough. Keller was a really solid theologian in so many ways. Huge impact. I have no doubt that God used him to bring many, many people over his decades of ministry to the gospel. So when Keller spoke or when Keller wrote, I was inclined to listen. However, whether Keller intended this or not, many of the people who have adopted his Third way position to politics in the gospel, people like Russell Moore, people like David French and many others, have all very demonstrably shifted to the left in the past 10 years. Moore wrote a book condemning white evangelicals for buying a false political gospel by voting for Donald Trump. He has been vehemently anti Trump for a long time. David French, of course, another vehemently anti Trump guy who now writes for the New York Times. He now also uses preferred pronouns for men who identify as women. So he's lying about the biological reality that God lays out for us in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible. Both of these men profess Christianity. David French also endorsed Harris the last election. They are a part of an organization called the After Party, which urges churches to avoid getting into the muck in the mire of things like gender and abortion. And they lead this with Curtis Chang, who dedicated nearly all of his public energy in 2021 to convincing Christians to get the COVID vaccine. He said that Christians vaccine hesitancy is linked to QAnon fueled paranoia. And he also, and this is why this is important. This is why this matters and is all connected. He considers himself a third way Tim Kellerite. And both Chang and Keller were champions of someone named Francis Collins. And I'll remind you about who Francis Collins is and how he fits into the third way in just a second. Let me go ahead and pause, tell you about our first sponsor for the day. It's seven Weeks Coffee. Absolutely love seven Weeks. They're going to be at Share the Arrows in just a couple weeks. They are awesome. They are America's pro life coffee company. They're called 7 weeks because at 7 weeks gestation, so the very beginnings of pregnancy, that little baby is the size of a coffee bean. 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You are going to walk out of there feeling more biblically wise, more biblically courageous. You're going to have more biblically grounded friendships. I am so pumped and right now we have sold almost 6,000 tickets. And so just imagine being in a room with 6,000 like minded believers worshiping together and learning together. I cannot wait to see you there. Go to sharethe arrows.com you can use my code ALI20 when you press unlock on Ticketmaster it'll give you 20% off any of the seats in the arena. This year's Share the Arrows is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to share the arrows.com share the arrows.com okay, so Francis Collins, very well connected to Tim Keller. He was the National Institutes of Health director during the COVID era. He's been in public health for a long time. He and Curtis Chang led this project called Christians and the Vaccine. He pushed really hard for vaccines, supported from what I can see from my research, Max Mask and vaccine mandates. He even spoke to churches via webinars telling Christians that it was their Christian responsibility to get the vaccine. He argued that this was a way to love your neighbor. He argued that the vaccine was a part of God's redemption story. Just think about everything we know and even then knew and did not know, and then to use the gospel and someone's obligation by Christ to love other people, to tell them that they need to get a vaccine that we knew so little about at the time and we now know did not accomplish the things that scientists and propagandists said that it was going to accomplish at the time. I mean, that is some audacity right there. But Keller and Collins were close friends and Keller completely supported Collins. They did podcasts together during this time. During this Covid era, Keller regularly wrote for Collins's outlet, BioLogos. And Keller defended Collins many times, especially when he was getting a lot of criticism from fellow Christians during the COVID era for the things he was saying. And he actually compared him. Keller compared Collins to Daniel in the Bible. But Collins not only supported embryonic stem cell research and the scientific use of fetal tissue long time ago, which people say encourages the discarding of these humans for money, but he also led the NIH when it launch LGBTQ initiatives like Allyship in Action. Like his name was actually signed off on these things, completely affirming things like transgenderism. He also in 2021 apologized for the effects of structural racism, which he claims set minorities back. So he is a left wing guy and yet he was hugely supported by Keller and was hoisted up as an example of this third Wayism, of this faithful, soft, but persistent presence that Christians are supposed to have in the secular world. And you know, Tim Keller also lauded people like, oh gosh, what's his name? He's one of the late night comedian Stephen Colbert. He also lauded Stephen Colbert, another, you know, very liberal guy, and said, this is a good example of being a faithful presence and sharing the gospel with a confused world. So what we see over and over again as positively impactful as I think Tim Keller was in so many of his works, is that his third Wayism and its emphasis on winsomeness, so making the truth attractive to a confused culture, that's what that's supposed to mean, has really become an excuse for a lot of people, not everyone, but a lot of people, to reflexively repudiate anything associated with conservatism and Donald Trump and run the other direction. Because conservatism, white evangelicalism, supporting for Trump or supporting Trump, voting for Trump, these things to this crowd is often seen as embarrassing or unintellectual or unsophisticated, failing to understand the nuances of culture. And so by this Third Way crowd, this kind of group of evangelicals who happen to vote for Donald Trump and be conservative, and they're worried about the liberal culture wars raging. They see those people really as a hindrance to the gospel Gospel, a hindrance to evangelism, to non believers. Okay, so that's Third Wayism. That's what we've got over there. And again, maybe that was not the intent of Third Wayism, Maybe that's not everything Keller was. But that has been in prominent evangelical circles and public evangelical circles at places like Christianity Today, the afterparty, all of that. That's been its effect. And then on the other hand, you have Charlie Kirk, who evangelized on college campuses into groups around the world, while also intertwining politics and culture war issues completely unapologetically. I mean, he unashamedly shared the gospel with one student who would come to the front of the line and then the next student. He would also encourage them to adopt, you know, positions on capitalism and all kinds of conservative principles and to always vote for the most liberty minded conservative option on the ballot. And he was very blunt in a lot of cases. He was very straightforward. He was extremely clear. And from what I've seen, he really never changed his message and rarely, from what I saw, changed his approach, no matter to whom he was speaking. And he was obviously a very unwavering Trump supporter, a big defender of Trump. He said the controversial thing. He completely rejected worldly definitions of racism, inequity and social justice. And although he is so different from the Third Wayism that we just articulated by Tim Keller, we have now seen millions and millions of people hear the gospel and many people come to the faith because of Charlie's fierceness in telling the truth. Before I guest hosted Charlie's podcast last week, I asked my audience to please send me testimonies of how God used Charlie's words to bring you to Christ. And I got so many emails. You never know how many people are going to go through the trouble of getting out of the Instagram app, typing in the email and actually doing it. And so I was shocked. It just like my inbox was full of people saying, this is how God used Charlie to positively impact my life and push me back towards church in the Bible. But this one testimony from a young woman named Jacqueline was so special that I actually had her on Charlie's show to share it. But here's what she said in part of her email. She said, I was also very deep into the new age. I read my Oracle cards and had Tarot readings, crystal energy, healing, went to moon circles, carried crystals with me everywhere. She said I was definitely bitter and defensive towards Christians, yet I was always constantly searching for a greater meaning. The deeper I went into the New Age and the more focused on myself I was, the emptier I felt. I told myself I just needed to do more shadow work or integrate and release my traumas. I mean, this whole email could be an entire podcast, when really she says, I just needed Jesus in New Age. Everything is so focused on the me, when really all our focus needs to be on him. And then she goes on to explain that her husband always listened to Charlie Kirk, that he always leaned right. And she says that at first she was so affronted by what he was saying, she was so offended. It was so different, she says, from the mindset that she was in. And then she says, the more I listened, though, the more it all made sense, the more I could feel Jesus calling me. So I picked up a Bible and I began reading. She said, as I listened to Charlie, the more my views politically changed as well, the more I read the Bible, I realized my views were the antithesis of the Bible, completely incongruent. She says that now I have done a 180 on my views, religiously and politically, and I thank God for Charlie and his message. She says that unfortunately she's lost a lot of friends because of her views. She said a lot were hardcore liberals. She said that she was fired from her job for refusing to sign something stating that she would use people's preferred pronouns. But she says, and this is all Christ. She says, I wouldn't change any of it. I've seen the light and will do everything to stand in its glory. Yes, and amen. That's what Jesus does. And we're just vessels. I'm just a vessel. Charlie was just a vessel. You're just a vessel. But how incredible. Like, she explained in her interview with me that she was very offended by Charlie at first. She was very pro abortion, and when she started hearing Charlie talk about abortion, she was offended. And then God used that, though, to soften her heart. That speaks to her own humility. That speaks to God's power. And when I shared that the other day, I got a comment on Spotify from someone saying, I hated this show, talking about, you know, relatable. I hated this show two years ago, but now I'm coming to share the arrows and I'm on fire for Jesus. And I absolutely love messages and comments like that. I get them pretty often saying you know, I actually found you from some Redditor who hated you or some page who hated you. And I just enjoyed hate watching you. And then they stuck around and you know, God uses not me, but his truth to change people's hearts and minds. And then another email I got about Charlie that I thought was really sweet. She said, for the last four and a half years, I refused to reach out to my father out of pride because of some words that were exchanged between us last. And then she said watching a video of Charlie speaking with a young woman whose parents were divorced and one conservative and one liberal, she said made her stop in her tracks. She said, he said, this is what Charlie said to this woman in the video. It was her responsibility to honor her mother and father according to the Bible. And this woman who emailed me said it made me reflect and admit to myself that the only reason I haven't reached out to my father is due to my own hurt pride and ego. I've been thinking, well, he can call me, he knows my phone number, but the Bible doesn't command my father to honor me, and it commands me to honor him. And so she said, she said, I've been a follower of you and Charlie Kirk for many years. She said, the day after Charlie was killed, I called my father and had an hour and forty minute, I'm trying not to cry an hour and forty minute conversation after not speaking to him in over four and a half years. She said that they have a long road ahead, but that Charlie's words set her on the right trajectory. And I'm telling you guys, like, I have received dozens and dozens of messages just like that. And I'm just one person. And so I'm sure that all of the other people who knew Charlie and have been talking about him have also received their own hundreds of messages. And there are hundreds of thousands of videos and testimonies just out there in the public, not to mention the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people who heard the gospel shared at Charlie's memorial. And so we've got to think about, like what is really most effective here again, Tim Keller, hugely influential in his own rights, decades of what I would call faithful ministry. Obviously, there are many things that I didn't agree on in his approach and we'll get more into that. But I'm sure that there are a lot of solid Christians out there who can credit Tim Keller and his wisdom for their conviction. I am someone who can say that I was very positively affected by him, but I'm more in the camp of Charlie Kirk just unapologetically like pushing back against the darkness in the culture, knowing that some people won't like it, but also feel like that is a responsibility that we have. So here's what I want to contemplate today. Is there a biblical and unbiblical way to discuss politics as a Christian? Is it okay to not discuss politics as a Christian, to not care about politics as a Christian? And I don't think actually either people in this camp would say that, but there definitely are Christians out there who say Jesus is coming back, we shouldn't care about politics. Is that okay? Should we at any point forego or minimize our political views, our culture war views, in order to evangelize and to appeal to a non believer? Another question I think we should examine. Does tone matter? And this is interesting, and I don't know that we'll have the fullness of the answer to this today, but it's interesting to ponder. Why does Charlie's approach typically lead people to the right? And why does Tim Keller's tactic typically lead people to the left? So we're going to dig into this today. We're going to look at some specifics on each person. Keller, Kirk versus Kirk ism and how they approached things. And then I'll tell you my opinion on these in just a second. Let me go ahead and pause, tell you about our next sponsor for the day. It's Masa Chips. We've talked about them before. Big Masa Chips fan over here. There was a time when all chips and fries were cooked in beef tallow. 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He argued that Christians were having a harder time sharing their faith with non believers who would turn away from the church because it was too Republican. And we've heard this over and over again. That and I've personally heard this from people who claim to be Christians, that people like you are turning people away from Christ, people like you or why people are leaving the church or why they're not coming to church. And I just want to be like, well, I wish I could give you access to my inbox, because that's just not true. Now that's not to say that I or anyone is going to be everyone's cup of tea. But this idea is very prevalent that anyone who is conservative or who votes for Donald Trump is pushing people away from the church. So Tim Keller argued, the skeptic wants to believe that Christianity is just another political party, that really everybody is in it for power and so it just plays into their hands. And he's talking about if you are staunchly right or left, Republican, Democrat. He said there's been a danger everywhere in the west where a church becomes so identified with political power that always is alien that that is always alienating to a lot of people. He said the high number of white evangelicals who have identified with Donald Trump in the Republican Party, that's a stronger political identification that's ever happened in my lifetime. And of course he worried about that. We referenced a 2018 New York Times op ed a little bit ago and we quoted him saying that really Christians should be Committed to principles and values that we see on the right versus the left. He says that we should adopt racial and social justice of the left while keeping in line with biblical sexual orthodoxy of the right. And that's really how to walk that line and commit to the third way. As a Jesus follower and a Christian, of course, I completely disagree with that, because I would say how the left defines things like racial justice and equity and equality and compassion and empathy are not aligned with the Bible. You could say that we should care about people of all races and we should seek to honor them by making sure that they have the same dignified rights as everyone else because they're made in the image of God. But that is not how the left defines things like racial justice and social justice. And so I know that I'm kind of debunking a lot of what Keller was saying as we're going, but it would be hard for me not to. I don't want to go through this. And you think that. I think that these positions are completely valid. I think that there are valid parts to his approach. But I'm already seeing the problem with it is that it's just not true that the left wing in this country defines things like justice the way that Christians should define them. He says that Christians should think of how God rescued them. He did it not by taking power, but by coming to earth, losing glory and power, serving and dying on a cross. How did Jesus save? Not with a sword, but with nails in his hands. I saw this so much in 2020, saying that, you know, we shouldn't care about our rights, we shouldn't care about liberty, we shouldn't care about our constitutional freedoms, because we should just be willing to lay those down in service to our neighbor. Often that was used to say, get the vaccine, wear the mask, do the social distancing, pull your kid out of school, do online learning for two years, all of these things. And I'm like, but who's going to stand up for the rights of the people who can't speak for themselves? See, this is toxic empathy. Toxic empathy urges you to ignore the people on the other side of the moral equation. So you put all of your empathy towards one group, and you forget about the people on the other side who are being negatively affected by focusing only on the desires of this other group. And when it came to Covid, we said, okay, we gotta, you know, supposedly save all these people by doing these things. And then we ignore the loss of learning, the depression, increase in abuse and anxiety, and all of these Kids who had no political capital, no voice, no say in any of that. And those of us who were standing up for them, we were told, you're not loving your neighbor. You're not doing a good job of being a Christian. And so that's not explicitly what he says here, but this kind of Logic carried into 2020 to manipulate a lot of Christians into being quiet when we saw what really was injustice, the government, it saying that you are going to lose your job if you don't get this vaccine that you're not comfortable with, that you might not be ethically aligned with. Like, that is an injustice. But it's ironic that the Christians who talk so much about social justice saw us as an impediment to loving our neighbor when that's exactly actually what we were trying to do. And you also see this talk of power and empire. He doesn't use the word empire here. But this, this is also a line of reasoning that is lodged at conservative Christians. It is. We are accused of just wanting power. That's why we're aligning with Trump. That's why we're conservative and we're trying to turn this nation into Christian nationalism and theocratic fascism and Christo fascism, all of these crazy words. But traditionally, it's conservatives who are voting for less government. Like, either we're fascists or we're Second Amendment proponents. We can't be both, because fascists always want to take away people's guns. Fascists are the ones killing people for saying things and for having opinions that are calling for people to be terrorized, that are terrorizing pregnancy centers because they don't like what they're doing, who are trying to assassinate Supreme Court justices because of how they decided on the Dobbs decision. Like, if you want to look at what fascism actually is, if you want to look at people who want complete and total power, then I'm not sure that it should be the right that you're primarily looking at. That's not to say there aren't power hungry people on the right. That's absolutely true. But it's not fair and it's not accurate. It's not factual to say that just because people voted for Donald Trump that they want power and empire in all of this. And also I just want to say, and it's going to, it's pretty obvious, like, where I'm landing on all of this, but I just couldn't wait till the end to, like, try to debunk some of the things here and try to push back against it. This Whole thing about power, that Christians should not seek power. Well someone's always going to have power. And the people who have power affect policy. And what do we know about policy? It affects people. It affects the vulnerable people most. It affects children in and outside of the womb. It affects the poor, the sick, the elderly, the vulnerable. So shouldn't we care about the person in power, who that person is, what their worldview is, and how that affects the policies that then affect the people that we are trying to love? Why wouldn't we want the person in power to have a Christian worldview or at least the people around him to have a Christian worldview? And I'm not arguing that Trump is a Christian and that he has a Christian worldview, but the people around him are a lot closer to a Christian worldview as we saw at Charlie's memorial, than Kamala Harris, who was openly hostile to Christian values in every way. So it is okay for Christians to want to be in positions of power. He is using the example, the self sacrificial example of Jesus to say Christians should not try to seek power in any way. But remember like Jesus this, the story of Christianity did not end or start when Jesus died. The story of Christianity started when Jesus defeated death, when he rose from the grave. And Jesus is coming back not as a baby in a manger, but as a warrior, as a savior, as a messiah. And I'm not saying that that, that is necessarily like our model for how we should form the government, but I also don't think Jesus dying on the cross means that Christians are not supposed to try to obtain government offices that have influence on policy that then affects people. I mean that is a complete rejection of the Founders ideas. Certainly our founding documents are just replete with acknowledging that we were created by God, that morality and truth are created by God, that we were given rights by God. Without that, do you think that we have all of this goodness and, and the effects of righteousness that we still have parts of today, like in recognizing the needs of the vulnerable? No, like Christians have recognized that Christians need to be affecting policy in order for good things to happen to weak people. And so it's just, it's wrong, it's wrong to say that Christians should not be seeking power. Power should be used to restrain evil and to advance righteousness. That's a very good thing. That's a good thing for our most vulnerable neighbors. When Christians say, oh no, I'm just gonna get out of that, guess what? Babies inside the womb at 40 weeks gestation get murdered Kids who say that they're confused about their gender, they get their genitals chopped off. Parents lose custody of their kids because they won't affirm the opposite gender of their child. Drag queen story hour goes on. Kids are read pornography in schools. That's what happens when Christians are not in power. So if we love our neighbor, Christians should absolutely seek influence. Okay, that's my rant on that. All right, let's talk about what he thought about, like racial and social justice and all of those things, because I think he was also wrong on this. But let me go ahead and pause and tell you about my next sponsor, which is Good Ranchers. So after you get yourself some masa chips, chips on the side or on the side, that's going to be on the side of your meal, your good rancher's meal, because you're going to make, I don't know, some enchiladas or maybe you're going to make some quesadillas with their ground beef and with their chicken. That's what I did last night. I had my good rancher's chicken and here's what I did. Think it was already left over. I like to make the big batches of the non pre marinated chicken, stick it in the oven, put it in the refrigerator, you're good to go. You can make so much stuff with this. 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