← Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Ep 1267 | Frank Turek on Charlie Kirk Investigation & UC Berkeley Chaos | Dr. Frank Turek
01:10:58
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- [00:01]
A
Apologist Dr. Frank Turek went into the lion's den at UC Berkeley a few days ago. And the backlash from agitators there was just insane. He is telling us what really went down. What was it like to share the gospel in that kind of environment? We are also going to be getting into what he thinks about Candace Owens's theories about Charlie Kirk's murder. We've got all that and so much more on today's episode of Relatable. It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to good good ranchers.com for American meat delivered right to your front door. Use code ALLY for a discount at checkout. That's goodranchers.com code ALLY. Dr. Frank Turek, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. All right, I want to talk about UC Berkeley. Can you just, before we get into the specifics, take us through the whole night being asked to speak there, what you spoke about and how it it went.
- [01:05]
B
Yeah, well, Charlie Kirk and I were scheduled to go there from the summer. I said, charlie, if there's one campus I want to go and be with you on it would be Berkeley. And he said, well, let's do it. So it was scheduled for November 10th, and of course, we all know what happened two months prior. So I thought the whole thing would be called off. But the team called me and said, we're still going to Berkeley. Erica said the show must go on to her credit. So we decided that we're going to Berkeley and Rob Schneider, the actor, comedian, was going to join me. And so we planned the whole thing out and it was scheduled at Berkeley and the police knew about it, the university knew about it. And when we talk about what happened that night, you'll see that there's going to be probably a lawsuit coming from the Department of Justice because Berkeley did not hold up their end of the deal, it appears anyway.
- [02:10]
A
Okay. I spoke at UC Berkeley in 2018, which was really not a saner time than it is now. And I it was a lot more contained than what you did. I spoke to a large classroom and I gave what I thought was a very neutral speech, actually, because I went in knowing that it was the lion's den, but it was right in the middle of the Kavanaugh saga. And I was one of the main voices kind of sticking up for Kavanaugh that it's not right to just accuse a man based on basically nothing and to try to ruin his life based on that. And it was the craziest still, to this Day. It was the craziest experience at a college campus that I had ever had. There were students standing up in the middle of my speech, screaming, yelling. I was, I was actually taking it back. I mean, I'm a, a, I'm a Texas girl. And so I guess I just thought every, like, surely it's not going to be that insane. It was insane. And that was seven years ago and you saw way more vitriol than I saw. So tell me what went down.
- [03:14]
B
Well, we call it UC Berserkly for a reason, Ali. We had actually gotten into the venue early and so we were in the venue when most of the, the damage was happening and Antifa was there. Obviously they were hurling insults and slurs at the people trying to get in. They set off fireworks which sounded like gunfire. So people were scrambling. You've seen some of the video already. And at one point some of the TPUSA staff went out there just to try and usher more people into the venue. And security, TPUSA security said, hey, get back in the building because it's too dangerous out here. So the venue held at least 2,000 people. It's a beautiful theater and they had two balconies that, as I say, the whole venue would hold dependent upon how they format it up to 2,400. I think there were at least 2,000 seats in there and only between 900 and 1,000 were filled because the university decided not to let certain people in who didn't have their official ticket, which is a whole nother thing. They had to use the university ticketing system. And so what happened was. And many leftists went on, got the free tickets and then said they weren't going to use them or didn't tell people they weren't going to use them, but they wanted to have the venue be empty. So 900 to 1,000 people courageously got in. The doors opened at. Let's see, I was in there. The doors opened at 5:00 clock for a 6:30 start. And so a number of people got in there, but the university police did not keep the walkway free to allow people to get in. So people were spat on, people were harassed. And they were not only harassed getting in, Ali, they were harassed getting out.
- [05:18]
A
Wow.
- [05:18]
B
After the whole event was over. So the event ended, I want to say it was like 8:45. So we started about, I'd say 20 minutes late. And so the whole event went a little about two hours.
- [05:33]
A
Yeah.
- [05:33]
B
And Antifa was out there the whole time. It's not a large group of people just a very disruptive group of people and not all of them were students. Ali I would say that from the reports that I got, because I wasn't actually out on the sidewalk, most of these people were adults. Most of these people were probably George Soros funded, you know, liberal agitators. And Harmeet Dhillon, who is in the Department of Justice and is the top civil rights attorney in the country or civil rights law enforcement person, has already sent Berkeley a two page letter that they need to retain all the records because there's probably going to be a civil rights lawsuit brought against Berkeley which by the way gets, I've heard hundreds of millions if not a billion dollars a year in funding from the United States government.
- [06:26]
A
Wow.
- [06:27]
B
So there are laws that say you have to grant equal access. You can't allow a heckler's veto to go forward. You experience a heckler's veto, in other words, that people were actually in the venue trying to shout you down.
- [06:40]
A
Right?
- [06:40]
B
None of the people that were ant. Well, I can't say that because the first questioner was claimed to be part of Antifa, but he was polite. Nobody in the venue shouted anyone down. They were predominantly Charlie Kirk and TP USA and supporters and Christians. But people outside the venue did everything they could to prevent people from getting in foreign.
- [07:10]
A
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- [10:05]
B
I think that's probably what's going to happen when we get to the court case. People are going to realize that's exactly right. Isn't it ironic, Ali, that these people who say they're fighting for inclusion, tolerance and diversity will not include you and will not tolerate you for holding a diverse view?
- [10:23]
A
Right.
- [10:24]
B
And they claim that we are the fascists when, Ali, I mean, if irony could kill, they'd be dead already.
- [10:33]
A
Yeah.
- [10:34]
B
Okay. Because they're the ones. Ones that are the fascists. Using force to try and shut up people that disagree with them and using force to beat up people who are for free speech. I mean, they always call Charlie Kirk a fascist. Yeah. We all know that a fascist tactic is to tell your opponent to come to the front of the line. Let me give you the microphone so you can freely make your case. That's what fascists do, Ali. Of course.
- [11:03]
A
Yeah. Fascists definitely want a limited government and want the people to have the right to keep in bear arms and love free speech and love freedom of religious expression. That's a telltale sign of fascism.
- [11:17]
B
Yeah, it's. It's crazy.
- [11:19]
A
Okay. Yeah.
- [11:21]
B
I think so much of it is demonically influenced. We're fighting against principalities and powers that are supernatural in nature. And some of these people, I Mean, I'm sure people have already seen the gentleman who was beaten up wearing the red freedom shirt. Because it turns out, it appears now that the guy who did that, I mean, you can't make this stuff up, Ali. The guy's first name is Jihad, okay? You can't make this up. And he goes to a mosque, apparently in Oakland.
- [11:57]
A
Yeah.
- [11:57]
B
And he was trying to hide his face. He's some kind of rapper. He's got some odd name, but his first name is Jihad. I don't have it in front of me. And he was arrested, and so was the guy he beat up. The guy he beat up was let go. He was arrested. Of course, he's already out on bail.
- [12:10]
A
Right?
- [12:11]
B
Of course, Jihad tried to. He tried to pull the cross off this gentleman's neck who was wearing the red Freedom T shirt. And a fight ensued. And they both were arrested. But of course, he's already out on bail, by the way, meanwhile, that day, just before the event, I had lunch with a friend of mine who is a pro life sidewalk counselor. His name is Don Blythe. Great guy. He's out in Modesto. He came to San Francisco to have lunch with me, and he was arrested on San Jose State's campus not long ago, even though it was an illegal arrest. And he told me this. I haven't checked this out myself, but he said, in San Jose now you're supposed to book yourself. You have to book yourself. Yeah, I know, I know. It's crazy out there. And can we talk about the purpose of government for a minute?
- [13:11]
A
Yes. You know what? I Actually, we're going to get into that because I saw that your article in FOX News. But can I ask you. Well, a couple things. I want to ask you a theological. Another theological question, and then we can get into the purpose of government and capital punishment. But I do want to play this clip of you from UC Berkeley sharing the gospel.
- [13:33]
B
So God gives us free choice. The problem is we can use our free choice to do evil like the shooter did. But can any good come from that? The Bible talks a lot about this. We don't have time to get in all the details, but the Bible talks about the fact that testing produces patience, and patience produces character, and tribulation leads to hope. And it says, all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to his purpose, to be conformed to the image of his Son. Doesn't say all things are good. There's a lot of evil things out there. But according to God, good things can come from evil, especially to people who are called according to his purpose. And one of the ways that you become more like Jesus is through evil, man. If you get everything you want every time, you don't become like Jesus, you become a me monster.
- [14:31]
A
What was the response in the room when you were sharing this biblical truth?
- [14:36]
B
The response was very positive. The people that got in were courageous supporters of tpusa. I suspect most of them are Christians, but I wasn't sure, so I wanted to make sure. I gave them Charlie's number one message. My number one message? Your number one message. The Bible's number one message. And that is, we're all sinners, we all need a savior. We can't save ourselves that. There's only two things you're going to get in the afterlife. You're either going to get justice or you're going to get grace. And I don't want justice from an infinite being. Neither do you. Neither does anybody watching, Neither did anybody at UC Berkeley. And the only way we can avoid infinite justice is the God of infinite grace, who takes justice upon himself, takes our punishment upon himself, and then by trusting in him, we're not only forgiven, but given his righteousness. So that's the only message I wanted to get across at the memorial. That's the only real message I wanted to get across to the folks there at UC Berkeley, other than the question of if God, why evil? We dealt with that in my 20 minute talk as well.
- [15:38]
A
Yeah, that's so good. I'm so glad that you're doing that series right now. And then the other question that I had, and maybe this will lead us into the purpose of the government, something that I know in all of these, you know, antifa protesters, which Charlie talked about so much before he died, from what I understand, even privately to people in the government saying, look, we got to break up these left wing terror cells. They're serious, they're inflicting violence. And that was something that he pushed hard for that. Those of us who care about his legacy should also be focusing on that, especially those with the power to do it in the government. But what is it about communism? I see this hammer and sickle. I see these people who say they want equality, they want peace, they want everyone to be taken care of, and they say they're fighting against poverty. Why always, every single time you see those mantras and those symbols, do you see such violence and ugliness and godlessness, like, why do those things go hand in hand?
- [16:38]
B
You know, it's interesting, Ali, our mutual friend James Lindsay is a agnostic atheist. And about a year before Charlie died, he texted Charlie and he said, charlie, I'm starting to believe in Satan because I'm looking at the history of communism in the 20th century where communist governments killed probably 100 million of their own people. Communist governments. And so Charlie texted back, texted him back, if Satan, then God, and James texted back, that would follow. In other words, it's the point that if there's evil, there has to be good. Because evil is not a thing in itself. It's a lack in a good thing. It's like cancer. You know, if you take all the cancer out of a good body, you got a better body. But what happens if you take all the body out of the cancer? Yeah, you got nothing.
- [17:37]
A
Right.
- [17:37]
B
It doesn't exist on its own. And I say that because the history of communism is so poor that only an intellectual could defend it. Okay. I think Thomas Sowell said that communism and atheism go hand in hand. Why? Well, because in atheism and communism, the state is eternal and the individual is expendable. The individual is not eternal. In Christianity, the state is not eternal. The individual is. And so we have to have protections for the individual against a despotic government. That's what our Bill of Rights is all about.
- [18:26]
A
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- [19:35]
B
Well, biblically and logically, just reasonably, the purpose of the government is to protect innocent people from evil by punishing wrongdoers. And that is what Paul talks about in Romans, chapter 13. And of course, it's mentioned also in Genesis, chapter 9. If we had no government, wrongdoers would run rampant, just like they did almost rampant at UC Berkeley. We need a force to protect innocent people from evil and to punish wrongdoers. And when governments cease to do that, they cease to become legitimate governments. That's why our founders in the Declaration of Independence listed a long list of abuses that King George had committed against them. And so they said, if the government won't secure our rights, we have a right to a new government. And the real founder of our Constitution was James Madison, who said, if men were angels, no government would be necessary. I mean, if you think about the fact that human beings are not angels, but if we were, would we need a government? We wouldn't need a government at all. We'd always treat people well. There's no reason to have an outside force prevent evil because nobody would be doing evil and there'd be no wrongdoing to be punished. But since we are fallen and we do need a savior, we need a government to protect innocent people from evil. And this is where your book Toxic Empathy is so important, because people think. They think one sidedly, and you will explain it better than me. So I want you to take it from here, Ali, because you explain the fact that people don't see both sides of an issue and they wind up supporting the criminal rather than the victim. Can you unpack that for us?
- [21:29]
A
Sure. Yes. The media does this very well and there are so many examples of this. But in my book, I go through the five subjects where we see the media use empathy by hoisting up a particular victim to get you to draw the progressive conclusion about something. For example, when it comes to abortion, NPR told this terrible story of this woman named Samantha who was pregnant and she found out at 20 weeks that her baby had this fatal fetal anomaly, wouldn't live long after birth. And so how NPR tells this story is that to her horror, she found out that in the state of Texas she couldn't get an abortion. That's what she wanted. And so she was forced to carry this pregnancy. She was forced to bear the financial burden of delivery and burying her child. She was forced to go through this emotional distress because she wasn't given a choice because of this cruel, draconian Texas law. So it's all told from the perspective of the mother as the victim in this situation. Never are we told what an abortion entails. Never are. We told about this child, that she got to be delivered, that she got to be held, that she got to be named, that she got to be kissed and loved and cared for and then buried like the human being that she is. They don't talk about what would have happened if abortion had been allowed. She would have been poisoned, dismembered, thrown away like toxic waste. It was all from the perspective of the pain of the mother who was forced to carry this child to term. So at the end of it, you see all the comments on Instagram on this particular post, too. Everyone's incensed. Everyone feels so deeply for this mother. Everyone feels so much empathy for this mother that they draw the conclusion that NPR and Washington Post and all of these outlets want them to draw, which is these pro life laws are cruel because look at the pain that it causes. This is true. When they tell stories about an illegal alien, when they tell the story about the man who feels he was caught in, trapped in the wrong body, when they talk about, oh, this person just wants to love who they want to love, or oh, this criminal had such a hard upbringing. When you focus on their stories, you forget that, okay, well, if I support the policy that this outlet wants me to support, well, then babies die, then women and girls don't get private spaces, then children don't have both a mom and a dad, and then there are a bunch of victims of this person being let out of jail. In economics, that's called the second order effect. People don't think about the second order effect of their first decision. And when you're powered by empathy to make a decision, you are blinded to the victim on the other side of.
- [24:10]
B
The moral equation, especially when that victim is never brought up.
- [24:15]
A
Right.
- [24:15]
B
Or the victim is told that that victim, particularly in the pro life issue, isn't really a person.
- [24:23]
A
Right.
- [24:24]
B
So that's so well said. And I know your listeners. If they haven't gotten toxic empathy yet, they need to get it because this is the problem. In fact, I was just looking at a Twitter feed. Elon Musk put this out today. Ali. Someone asked the question, what is the greatest problem facing humanity? And he said, it's interesting to read all the responses in the Twitter feed, but one of them that popped up was from Sad. Glad, I think is sad. I think, yeah, he's a. He's a professor up in Canada and he calls it suicidal empathy.
- [24:58]
A
Right, right.
- [24:59]
B
Which is similar to, you know, toxic empathy that people just can't think about both sides of an issue. They get on one side and they advocate for that one side, not realizing the victims on the other side are there. And they're. They've been propagandized to think they're thinking the right way about an issue, when in fact they're thinking exactly the wrong way about an issue.
- [25:24]
A
Yeah.
- [25:24]
B
And it's so important. And the whole immigration thing is a big example of this. They'll have some sob story about an immigrant, and you'll go, well, we're supposed to bring in the immigrant.
- [25:36]
A
Of course.
- [25:37]
B
Yes. Okay. But then they'll use that sob story, and they will not talk about the 300,000 girls that have been sex trafficked. Probably they're missing in our country right now during the Biden administration. They will not talk about the 100,000 people who have died from fentanyl overdoses. They will not talk about the terrorists that came across the border. They will not talk about all of the bad things that have occurred from having an open border. They won't talk about the fact that housing prices are up because there's such a demand for housing now with more immigrants, or that wages are suppressed because there are more immigrants, illegal immigrants. They will not talk about the cost to the taxpayer on law enforcement, nor will they talk about all the money that is going to illegal aliens that is putting us further in debt. Nor will they talk about the fact that part of the shutdown, which has brought pain to a lot of people, was brought forth by Democrats in order to get illegal aliens health care. They won't talk about any of this because they have this toxic empathy on one side. And I always tell people, look, you. You believe in borders. Do you have a lock on your door?
- [26:51]
A
Right.
- [26:51]
B
Do you have a password on your bank account? Why don't you just give anybody the password to your bank account? How come you haven't done that? It's not because you hate people on the outside. It's because you love people on the inside. And you have a responsibility to take care of your family. As Paul said, if. If you don't take care of your family, you're worse than an unbeliever. And I love. Sorry, I'm rambling here.
- [27:12]
A
No, please.
- [27:12]
B
Filibustering now. No, but I love what Vice President Vance said over in Europe back in February. He started talking about Augustine's Order of Loves. Do you remember that, Ali?
- [27:23]
A
Yes, I do.
- [27:25]
B
I mean, that was. Any politician that talks about Augustine's Order of Loves gets my vote.
- [27:30]
A
Yes, and that was. People were scandalized or else they acted scandalized about that. And I just, you know, it's kind of like what you were saying. They want to argue against it because in their minds. Or they could say, say that lacks empathy. How could you say that? We're not supposed to love these other people. But of course that's how they order their own lives. No one can love everyone equally. It's impossible for us to do that. And we weren't meant to. I mean, God is a God of order. He actually created these systems for us to have order to our lives. He placed us not in a jungle, he placed us in a garden and told us to work and to keep it. From the very beginning, there is a systematized way of doing things that God does. Not for his sake, but for our good, because we are orderly beings made in his image. And families and countries and laws and governments and punishments and rewards are all part of that. That people, they're gifts of common grace. That people need to survive and thrive. And people get that, as you said, on the micro level, because they all order their lives that way. They love their kids more, they feed their kids more. They don't let anyone into their house to steal their food. That doesn't make them a loving neighbor. That makes them a bad parent. But when it comes to politics, when it comes to just zooming out a little bit, they don't. They don't apply the same standard that they apply to their own lives. And they call us bigots for doing so. And yeah, it can be really hard to rationalize with that.
- [28:56]
B
Well, you can't rationalize with the irrational. In fact, we were talking backstage, me, Rob Schneider, Peter Boghossian was there. That was a surprise to me. I don't know if you know Peter, but. But he's an atheist. But he is trying to save Western civilization because he realizes that the woke left is aligned with the militant Islam faction and those two forces together will destroy Western civilization. And so we were talking about the fact that some people think that you can reason with people that don't want to be reasoned with.
- [29:35]
A
Yeah.
- [29:36]
B
I mean, Jesus himself said, don't cast your pearls before swine or else they'll trample you to death.
- [29:41]
A
Yeah.
- [29:42]
B
Rob Schneider was on Fox and Friends talking about this after the event. I was on before the event, and Rob was saying that the people inside the arena, some of them didn't agree with us, but we had civil conversations. And that's. That's how you have a democracy or a republic, which, what? We have a representative republic. You exchange Ideas and you have free speech. The folks on the outside, Antifa and all the protesters, they didn't want to have free speech. They didn't want to have a debate. They wanted to cancel the debate. And so it's not hard to see who is for civilization and who is against it. And let me say one other thing, because I want to make sure we're not guilty of what the left does. I'm not saying everybody that has leftist views isn't for free speech. We need to treat people as individuals. You can have leftist views and be wrong about certain things and right about other things. And I'm not going to say that everybody on the left agrees with Antifa. That's not the case. However, when we look at the surveys and when we look at the actual facts on the ground at these sites, Ali, the surveys show that political violence is predominantly coming from the left. A third of college students think it's okay to use violence against people who are uttering things you don't agree with. Where only 3% of very conservative people think that. A quarter to a third of very liberal students think, oh, no, that's just fine.
- [31:24]
A
Mm. And, I mean, we did just see in the state of Virginia that Jay Jones, who had said that he hopes that his political opponents get murdered and that his political opponent's wife holds their murdered children as they die. That is the kind of tragedy that he wanted to inflict on his political enemies. And he won. He won. And the governor who endorsed him won. And so, again, that doesn't mean that every Democrat in the state of Virginia said, yes, I love that. But not enough of them didn't love it. Not enough of them hated it. In order for him to lose, and it should have been a very easy loss. But we're in a different age. We're in a very different age than we were even 10 to 20 years ago.
- [32:12]
B
Yeah, we are. Rob Schneider the other night put it this way. He said, we're in a cold civil war, which I hope doesn't turn into a hot civil war. But the people who say they're fighting for inclusion, tolerance and diversity will not include and will not tolerate you for holding a diverse view.
- [32:30]
A
Yeah.
- [32:31]
B
Unless the government comes in and ensures that people like me and you and others that are trying to speak freely have that right on college campuses, there's not a lot of hope moving forward.
- [32:44]
A
Yeah. Speaking of the government, you wrote an article or you argued for the death penalty for Charlie Kirk's killer. We've talked about about the death penalty. A lot on this show. That is probably one of the things that I get the most pushback on for being pro death penalty post due process in principle, because of biblical principles. So tell me your argument for making this statement.
- [33:12]
B
Well, Paul in Romans 13 talks about that the ruler does not bear the sword for nothing to punish wrongdoers. And in his day, the sword meant the ability to use capital punishment on a capital crime offender. And so capital punishment was something that both the Old and the New Testament say is a legitimate form of punishment. And even Jesus himself said that, because when he's before Pilate, Ali, you remember that, Ali, I mean, you remember that Pilate said to him, to Jesus, don't you know, I have the authority to kill you? Jesus didn't say, no, you don't. He said you do. But you get that authority from above. What's the implication that governments have the authority, legitimate governments have the authority to issue capital punishment for capital crimes. And what so many pro lifers seem not to get is that and people, even on the other side of the issue, the pro abortion people, say, oh, you're pro life. How could you be pro death penalty? Well, there's a stark difference between an innocent baby and a guilty murderer. The innocent baby has done nothing wrong, but the guilty murderer has, and it's actually respecting life because you're saying that you took a person made in the image of God and the only way you can pay for that crime is for your life to be taken justifiably. So now I hope I, you know, obviously I think that Tyler Robinson is the true killer of Charlie Kirk. I've talked about all this Candace Owens nonsense on my own podcast and of course the trial will, will reveal all that. But I hope that Tyler Robinson repents, accepts Jesus and is then executed.
- [35:08]
A
Yeah. Amen. I say that I support, I'm against abortion for the death penalty and for the second Amendment all for the same reason, because I care about innocent life. I don't think innocent life should be murdered. I think that there should be a just and proportionate punishment to taking innocent life purposely, which Genesis 9:6 says is taking of the murderer's life. And then because I believe that innocent life should also be protected. So people say that there's an inconsistency, but it's actually the same reason for all of them, that people are made in God's image, we matter a lot, and that innocent people need to be protected and not be murdered. People try to over complicate that, but it's really not complicated.
- [35:52]
B
Exactly. And if the Christian worldview is true, and it is, Ali, people don't really die. They just change locations. Yeah, they go from this life to the next life and it's not up to us when that happens. Except a legitimate government does have the right to either take the life of a guilty murderer or in a just war. And individuals have the right to take life in self defense. The commandment does not say thou shall not kill, it says thou shall not murder. And so many people don't seem to understand that.
- [36:26]
A
There's a difference. There's a difference. Not all killing is sin, clearly, since there are times that God commands his people to kill, as you said, in a just and justified way. Next sponsor is Shopify. If you are a business owner, if you are trying to sell a product, you don't want to waste time setting up your own e commerce site and writing all the product descriptions, figuring out the pricing and all of that. You want something that is going to make this really easy so you can get back to doing what you love, which is actually creating the product or making the money from creating the product. You didn't become an artist or a creator to spend a bunch of time on your website. So use Shopify. They make it really easy. We use Shopify to sell our relatable merchandise. It is really so efficient. Doesn't matter how technologically savvy you are. They make it simple for you. They have their own design studios, they have hundreds of ready to use templates. They help you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style exactly. So you can not only create these products, but you can a thriving business using Shopify. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com ally that's shopify.com ally. Well you brought up Candace Owens. You said that you talked about it on your podcast. Could you tell us if people haven't watched what you have already said, what is your take? You know, her proponents say, well, she's the only one seeking truth. She's the only one really investigating. She's trying to figure this out. And then of course her detractors say, well this sounds like a conspiracy theory and she's airing out pre existing grievances in the name of investigation and she could be hurting a lot of people in the process. So how should we think about this?
- [38:24]
B
Let me ask you this Ali. Suppose I were to say that I think Candace Owens is the real killer killer. And I think the reason she's the real killer is she was upset that Charlie stopped inviting her to the big events. And what she decided to do was have him taken out. So Turning Point USA would not only pay for what they did to her, they would look at her as maybe someone who could succeed Charlie and then she would be the president. And she's insinuating all sorts of other possibilities in order to prevent her from being found out as the true killer. You would go, frank, you are crazy. And yeah, I would be crazy to suggest that. It's a possibility, though, isn't it? I mean, it's a possibility, Alex. I mean, anything's possible. But do I have evidence for it? I have zero evidence for it. And I would never want anybody to send Candace Owens. Candace Owens death threats because I'm pushing a possibility without evidence. But you know what? That's what Candace Owens has done to others. My friend Mikey McCoy is getting death threats. I'm getting emails saying, you never know what could happen to you. You ought to repent. It's one thing to ask questions, it's another thing to present or to insinuate that someone is guilty because you've put a web of possibilities together without any evidence that says that what you're saying is true. And I know there are a lot of unanswered questions about this particular murder. And there. There should be. Now, why should there be? I had my friend Jay Warner Wallace, the cold case homicide detective, on the show about five weeks ago, a couple weeks after the murder. And Jim has been a part of several homicide investigations and prosecutions. And here's his main point.
- [40:38]
A
Point.
- [40:39]
B
The prosecution is never going to tell the public anything. They don't need to tell them.
- [40:45]
A
The.
- [40:45]
B
The prosecution's goal is to convict the real killer, not quell conspiracy theories. Why? Well, let's put it this way, Ali. If the. If the FBI is right now investigating a second shooter with regard to the Charlie Kirk murder, they're not going to tell the public. Why? Because if they tell the public and then someone comes forward and says, oh, I saw the second shooter, they don't really know if that guy really saw the second shooter or that guy's just trying to make a name for himself and trying to get attention for himself, they have to keep their cards close to the vest. Also, they don't want to taint the jury pool. Also, they don't want to tip off the defense. Prosecutions rarely reveal what they have. They will, though, check into security, I should say conspiracy theories privately. How do I know? Because they Checked into me. I don't know if you saw this stupid. The stupid guy in the white hat, he's signaling the killer for Charlie Kirk. I didn't even know about that for the first 30 hours. When I got back to Phoenix after the murder, this was.
- [42:05]
A
Yeah.
- [42:05]
B
This was Thursday afternoon. It happened Wednesday about noon. When it finally got back to Phoenix, after J.D. vance came and picked up Charlie on Air Force Two, my wife picked me up and said, do you know that you're the subject of a conspiracy theory? I said, what? What are you talking about? She told me a whole story about the guy in the white hat.
- [42:26]
A
Yeah.
- [42:26]
B
No, no, Allie, I'm still getting people online.
- [42:30]
A
Yeah.
- [42:31]
B
Saying.
- [42:32]
A
And Candace. That. That particular one wasn't from Candace, just from other people. And this is just an example, though, of when people imply things or say things about you, it has a real consequence on your life.
- [42:45]
B
Yes. And it's so stupid. Like, why would anybody looking through a scope from 200 yards need somebody 25ft from Charlie. Charlie in a white hat to tell the shooter, hey, Charlie's over there. He's the one with the microphone under the tent. Why would. I mean, he couldn't even see me anyway, if he's looking through his scope.
- [43:07]
A
Right.
- [43:08]
B
It makes no sense at all. Yet people still believe this.
- [43:11]
A
Yeah.
- [43:12]
B
And so the FBI actually called me. Ali and I, we just have to ask you the question. Were you signaling the shooter? You know, he said, you know, I know this is kind of ridiculous, but. But I have to ask you. Why do they have to ask me? Because what's the defense going to do? Did you check into the guy in the white hat? Did you check into the second shooter? Did you check into this? Did you check into that? And the FBI is going to do all that why? Because if they want a real conviction, they don't want any holes in the case, but they're not going to broadcast to the world. We checked into that. We checked into this.
- [43:45]
A
Yeah. So would it be plausible to say that someone who is positing the guilt of, you know, all of these other people, people at Turning Point, Mikey McCoy. I believe that the statement was that he acted weird after Charlie died. That was the accusation. And also that he was planning to be some kind of successor, which I don't see any evidence for any of that. And I just think how painful it must be to be someone who was close to Charlie, who watched him died. You, too, and be swept up. Up and like, oh, possibly. Like, were you involved in this? But so would it be plausible to Say that making all of those statements publicly, someone with a platform doing that could help the defense and hurt the prosecution.
- [44:31]
B
Yeah, of course it could. Look, Candace has a right to ask any question she wants. I think she crosses a line, an ethical line, not a free speech line. An ethical line when she is insinuating people are guilty without evidence. You know what one of her pieces of evidence was? She had a dream. Charlie came to her in a dream and told her he had been betrayed. Hey, Ally, do you think Charlie Kirk was such a dunce that he hired people around him that were not loyal to him?
- [45:05]
A
Doesn't seem like the Charlie that I know. One of the smartest people ever.
- [45:10]
B
Yes. I mean, do you think Charlie was such a bad judge of character that he hired people that would turn on him and were secretly scheming against him? I don't have enough faith to believe that. I mean, that's. That takes a lot more faith than believing that some kid who had been radicalized by leftist ideology and was in relationship with a trans person took Charlie out. Because that's the best evidence we have at this point. Now all the evidence has not come to bear. By the way, Ali, do you think that the parents of Tyler Robinson, if he was not guilty, would be making a stink about this if he was innocent? Have you heard a word from the parents?
- [46:04]
A
No.
- [46:04]
B
The parents were the ones that turned him in. I mean, this is like the reverse Occam's Razor. You know, Occam's Razor says that probably it says don't multiply causes beyond necessity. Probably the simplest explanation is the true explanation. But we need to wait for the trial for all the evidence to come forward. If there's some conspiracy going on there, don't you think that Charlie's friends Kash Patel and Dan Bongino are going to get to the bottom of it? I might be more skeptical if it was the Biden aggressive, but these are the friends of Charlie. Charlie had Cash Patel's cell phone and Dan Bongino. See, he had everyone's cell phone. Ali. We know that. I mean, he was one of the most well connected persons among Christians and among politicians ever. And he was 31 years old. This man was not betrayed by people closest to him. Yeah, that's not the answer.
- [47:10]
A
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- [48:07]
B
Can we talk about Mikey for a second?
- [48:09]
A
Sure.
- [48:12]
B
Mikey. I just love that man. 23 years old and I was 24.
- [48:17]
A
So young. I didn't realize he was that young.
- [48:19]
B
Such a servant, just a servant. And me and Mikey and Charlie were having dinner in Phoenix in May and Charlie had to go up to use the restroom. I said, mikey, you know, Charlie couldn't do much of what he does without you. He said, it's just my honor to serve him. And why did Mikey immediately get on his phone? Candace Owens said, you know, there are three possibilities. You know, when you're struck with a tragedy. Number one is you run from it. Number two, you run toward it. Or number three, you freeze. And Mikey didn't either. Mikey immediately got on his phone. Well, first of all, let me suggest this. There's nothing normal about an abnormal situation. Nobody knows how they're going to react in an abnormal, traumatic situation. The only reason I did what I did was because I knew what I would do beforehand, because I had thought about it, because I always was afraid somebody was going to take a shot at Charlie. And I said, look, if I'm there, I got to do something, if I can, anything to try and save him. And so that's why I got in the car. You know what? Mikey had been told over and over again by Charlie, if anything happens to me, the first thing you do is you call Erica, get her on the phone immediately. Now, Erica was in Phoenix, we were in Utah. Mikey did the emergency procedure. That's what you're supposed to do. And anybody in the military or law enforcement knows what I'm talking about. I was in the Navy for eight years. You think about all this stuff before it happens. So when it happens, you don't have to think. You just do what you're supposed to do. What sense would it make for Mikey to run to Charlie when his security team, six guys were already on him? Well, four guys were on him. There's two More there.
- [50:19]
A
Right.
- [50:19]
B
They were. They were already. They. They were right there. He would have just gotten in the way. He knew what he had to do, and he did it.
- [50:27]
A
Yeah. And, you know, I don't have any special insight, but I assumed that that thing, as you said, had been rehearsed and as you said, had been talked about. And Erica said on Fox News to Jesse Waters that Mikey called her and said, get the kid. Kids. Get security. This just happened. And so if that's not what happened, are people saying that Erica is lying? Like, that would be the implication there that she's not telling the truth. And so I just. I. I really feel for him and the implication that, you know, he was promised to be Charlie's successor, and that's why he's speaking at Liberty University. Again, no evidence of that. That. I mean, Mikey's not hosting Charlie's show. I don't see, like, Mikey doing a bunch of interviews out there being like, I'm gonna. I haven't seen him at a campus stop. He hasn't been on any, like, doing any of these debates. There have been a lot of us, you, me, a lot of other people who were in this circle who have been asked to go to this speaking engagement or go to this campus stop or fill in or do this interview or things like that. Not, you know, to take anyone's place, but just because, you know, we're trying to fill in for a friend. But I haven't seen any evidence of Mikey stepping into any realm. I've seen him continue to serve. And so, again, I just don't see the proof. And I think it matters a whole lot to put someone, you know, in. In the crosshairs by implying that somehow they were involved in this. That's, like, a really, really hefty claim to make.
- [52:04]
B
Yeah. And it's causing dissension among the brothers. And, you know who's urging him to step in more? I am, because I think the kid is gifted. And I've tried to have several mentoring sessions with him like I had with Charlie, and he just can't do it yet. He just can't. I mean, we. We've tried to do it, and he. He's just. He's. He's in mourning, and he's.
- [52:29]
A
Yeah.
- [52:30]
B
And he's trying to hold it together. And he's a strong kid, but he's a kid. He's 24.
- [52:34]
A
Yeah.
- [52:34]
B
And, I mean, he. He has the demeanor and the intellect to go, once he's trained onto a college campus and be a very attractive Ambassador for Jesus. And so I hope at some point he does. But I would bet my life on Mikey McCoy. He did not. He had nothing to do with this. And yet you should see the horrific things people are saying about him. Yeah, man, it's very sad, Ali. And again, Candace, ask as many questions as you want, but don't insinuate people are guilty without evidence. A dream is not evidence. Yeah, okay, you're not a prophet. Okay? God didn't come to you in a dream.
- [53:24]
A
And neither are, you know, secret sources also aren't evidence. Because when something is not verifiable. You know, I've thought a lot about the Kafka trap and it was something that we talked about that you could probably explain way better than me. But we talked about this a lot in 2020 of this Kafka trap, which is you're a racist. And if you deny that you're a racist, you just prove more that you're a racist. And that's kind of what I see a lot with that, that you're guilty or you're part of this and you're only denying it because you are being paid off because you're under pressure. Like you. The only reason you would disagree with me is if you are guilty or you're propping up the guilty or something like that, well, that becomes this non falsifiable thing.
- [54:12]
B
You know, it reminds me, sorry, Alex, old Monty Python sketch, I think it was from the Life of Brian where this guy Brian is mistaken to be the Messiah. And so the people are saying, you know, you're the Messiah, right? You're the Messiah, right? He goes, no, I'm not the Messiah. I'm not the Messiah. Yes, you are. You're the Messiah. You're the Messiah. And they keep harassing me. Finally says, okay, I am the Messiah. And they go, he is the Messiah. You know, it doesn't matter what you say they are. Their conclusion is already made. Whether you affirm it it or deny it, they're going to find evidence for their position. What they think is evidence, but it really isn't. That's what's going on here. Doesn't matter what you say, what you deny, what you affirm, the conclusion is preloaded into their investigation. And that's not how you find truth. You don't have your conclusion already established before you look at the evidence.
- [55:13]
A
Last sponsor for the day is Jace Medical. Here's one thing we don't talk about enough. One in four people are infected with a parasite. It's way more common than most people realize. Someone you love could have one. You might never know. And that is why Jace medical is offering an easy, affordable way to access ivermectin. Because when it comes to your health, being prepared really shouldn't be that complicated at all. Their parasite kit includes compounded ivermectin and mebindazole. I hope that I said that correctly. Two proven ingredients that work together for an efficient, effective parasite cleanse. They also offer topical ivermectin gel and cream options that treat skin conditions like rosacea and more. Everything is prescribed online, shipped directly to your door and backed by real licensed physicians who guide the process. The best time to prepare for things like this is before. So go to jace.com use code ALI at checkout. You'll get a discount on your order. Jace.com code alert. Charlie, man. You mentioned those mentorship sessions that you would have with Charlie. You've talked about that publicly, going on walks with him. Can you tell us just a little bit more about some of the conversations that you had with him? The ones that you're willing to share before he died? You know, like where his heart was, the questions that he was asking, what was he, he seeking the Lord about?
- [56:39]
B
Yeah, I'll try and do this without getting emotional because it had to do with you. Actually, we were on September 8th, the murder occurred on September 10th. So this is Monday night, September 8th. And Charlie just gotten back from a trip to Japan and Korea and he flew in on, he got home on Sunday night the 7th and, and I got into Phoenix Sunday night the 7th. And so he said, let's have some. We had prearranged this the month before that. I would be there when he got, he got, he landed. And so on Monday he said, okay, we gotta meet and you know, we gotta, we gotta do some sessions. So Monday during the day we got together in his office and we went through some issues and of course he was tired, had taken nap and you know, I hadn't seen Eric and the kids for a couple days, said, okay, I'm gonna go have dinner with Eric and the kids. Can we do a walk tonight? Because we would go on these walks. I'd been in Phoenix, this was the fourth time this summer to do these sessions. And so yeah, let's go to, let's do a walk after dinner. So we would go on these long walks after dark, always with about a 300 pound armed bodyguard behind us. And he would be 10 to 15ft behind us as we walk. And there were three issues that we Discussed that he wanted to discuss. So, again, Charlie, what do you want to talk about? Let's talk about. Right. First issue was Islam, because he, like all rational people, understand that macro, macro Islam is a problem for Western civilization, not micro Islam. You know, there are many nice Muslims who don't believe in jihad or they still believe in freedom of speech and freedom of religion and all that.
- [58:25]
A
That.
- [58:26]
B
But macro Islam, the idea that Islam, which means submission, is really a political ideology that is inconsistent with the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and inconsistent with freedom of speech and freedom of religion and all these things. And so we talked a lot about that. The next issue he wanted to talk about was the resurrection. How do we convince young people of the two facts I always talk about? You only need to establish two facts to show that mere Christianity is true. One is God exists. The second is Jesus rose from the dead. If those two facts are true, Christianity is true. I mean, you can show from that point that the Bible is the word of God. Okay, so we talked a lot about that. But then the third issue, which we probably spent the most amount of time on Ali. Charlie was trying to figure out how could he get his generation to embrace marriage and childbearing, embrace the family. And he saw that many men were embracing it. In fact, the surveys show that among Trump voters anyway, the number one goal of young men was to get married and have kids. But for Trump voters who were women, it was like number six on their list. And for Harris voters, it was at the bottom almost of their list. And Charlie was trying to figure out, how could we move people toward a pro family, pro child position. And he said, you know, a lot of ladies probably aren't going to listen to me. Unfortunately, I'm a man. What do I know about being a mom and all this? And, you know, he would think that's kind of sexist to have that view. But still, you're not a woman. You don't know what it's like. So he said, said, how do I find women who can make this case? And hit. Your name came up. So he was talking about the work you're doing and how important that is to get women more desirable of marriage and family. And to be honest, he said, that can even be a problem for you to convince them, because although you're a mom, you have a platform, right? And some people may look at you and go, well, Ali's not just a mom. She has a platform, too, you know. And so we didn't totally solve the issue, but your name was the name that came up, how do we get women to follow what Ali's talking about? And that was.
- [61:11]
A
Wow. Well, Charlie, 36 hours later, he was dead.
- [61:17]
B
Wow.
- [61:19]
A
Charlie was such a champion of so many of. So many of us. And I just feel. I mean, you've got to feel incredibly blessed to have those moments with him that so few people had. And I'm blessed that he just, you know, would give me advice, Advice and say, I'm praying for you. Keep going. Gave me advice, certainly before the jubilee debate, and was so generous, just, like, with his time and effort. And, like, he just wasn't the kind of person that said, oh, what can I get out of this person? I'm only gonna text the powerful. Because, honestly, there were very few people who could give Charlie anything he didn't already have. He had the connections, he had the political capital. He had the relationships. He had the fame, he had the money. And there. There weren't very many people who could do that. And he could have very easily said, I don't need. I don't. I don't. Who. Who do I need? You know? But he was so humble. People don't really. I, I, I feel like, appreciate that about him. He was just very humble and really sought the expertise and insight and wisdom of other people while championing them at the same time. He was just a very, very unique person.
- [62:28]
B
He did. I. That's why I said at the memorial, you know, it could be hard to mentor somebody smarter than you, but not with Charlie Kirk, because the only thing that exceeded his intellect was his humility. The few things that I knew that he didn't know, he wanted to know.
- [62:42]
A
Yeah.
- [62:42]
B
And one thing he said, I don't know, maybe a year ago. And I was very sensitive to this because I know people especially like him in his position. He said, one of the problems is everybody wants something from you.
- [62:59]
A
You.
- [63:01]
B
Everybody wants something. That's why. And I. I know that. I know that when you get to that level, you don't really know who your friend is or are. They just. Did they just want something from you. And so I made it my goal not to really ask him for anything, because I didn't. I just wanted him to succeed.
- [63:22]
A
Right.
- [63:22]
B
In fact, I've been doing training, trying to train people to do what he does. It's so hard to find people, Ali. So hard. I said to him, I said, I've been waiting for you for 30 years.
- [63:35]
A
Yeah.
- [63:36]
B
You know, there are very few people that can go to a college campus and answer questions, any question.
- [63:45]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [63:45]
B
And you, you can do it. Alisa Childers can do it. Natasha Crane can do it.
- [63:51]
A
It.
- [63:52]
B
A few others can do it. You know, people have been in this a while. J. Wonder Wallace, Greg Kokel. Yeah, they can all do it. But finding young people, I mean, you're a blessing ally. You're. You're. Anything I can do to help you.
- [64:10]
A
Well, thank you.
- [64:10]
B
So.
- [64:11]
A
And you have. And you've helped. I mean, I know you know this, but maybe you don't think about this, but you have helped millions and millions and millions upon. Of people because of your mentorship of Charlie. And I know you will be humble and say, oh, I didn't teach him anything he didn't already know. But you did. And he would not. He. He was not someone who wasted his time. We all know that.
- [64:35]
B
No.
- [64:35]
A
And he would have never said, oh, I just spent all day with you, let's go on a walk tonight. Unless he knew that what you had to offer him was so valuable. Valuable and something he needed to give to millions and millions of people. And you won't even know until the other side of eternity when someone comes up to you and says, I know the gospel because of what you said to this person who said this to this person, and on and on.
- [65:00]
B
That's right. So as you said, there's like 10,000 people that go into somebody's salvation.
- [65:08]
A
Yeah.
- [65:08]
B
And it's not just me and you and Charlie Alley. It's everybody watching right now.
- [65:12]
A
Exactly.
- [65:13]
B
Because the people watching right now, you out there, you're going to reach people that Ali and I don't even know.
- [65:20]
A
Yep. We.
- [65:21]
B
You know, you're. You're going to reach them. So you don't have to change the world. You just need to change somebody's world. So do whatever you can to advance the cause of Christ, wherever that is, however that is.
- [65:33]
A
Yeah. With just the couple minutes that we have left. Can you. I mean, you were there care. When Charlie died. You were in the car after you knew that he had already gone to glory because you could see that his eyes were open. But as you said, they weren't. You know, he was already seeing Jesus.
- [65:50]
B
They were fixed. Yeah.
- [65:52]
A
Tell us how you're doing because you have not stopped sharing the gospel. Going on these college campuses, going in the lion's den, and you just lived through what I imagine was probably the most traumatizing moment of your life. Life.
- [66:06]
B
Yeah. You know, everybody deals with it differently, Ali. All. But all the people that were there and all the people that knew Charlie will tell you the Same thing. Grief comes in waves.
- [66:16]
A
Yeah.
- [66:17]
B
You know, there are days you go, I don't know if I can go on. You know, not that I'm going to commit suicide, don't get me wrong. I mean, just like.
- [66:22]
A
Right. You don't want to get out of that.
- [66:24]
B
I don't know if I can do anything.
- [66:25]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [66:26]
B
In another day, you feel almost normal.
- [66:28]
A
Yeah.
- [66:29]
B
But it's still true. It's two months later. The last thing I think about when I go to bed is Charlie. First thing I think about when I wake up is Charlie. You know, and I normally wake up, normally about 4am and lie there for an hour and a half.
- [66:44]
A
Yeah.
- [66:45]
B
Maybe it's because I have this condition known as 63 Ali. Maybe that's it. But it's. Yeah, but you just work through it. You pray, you, you talk to people, you. But let's, let's, let's, let's, let's not Forget Ali. There's 50 Charlie Kirks murdered every day in Nigeria. I mean, this is not to belittle what happened here, but we don't have the kind of religious freedom we have here. We don't have around the world. And Christians are dying all the time. It's almost normal.
- [67:20]
A
Yeah.
- [67:21]
B
So we need to that. We need to have some courage and move forward regardless of what happens.
- [67:27]
A
Okay. Can I ask, can I ask you something at the. Just to close this out. And I don't usually end my shows like this, but can you just like give us a prayer for all the Christians listening to just close out this episode?
- [67:40]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Father, I thank you for Ally and her ministry and all the people listening and watching. And we're all here not to just build our own kingdom, but to build your kingdom. We know there are many distractions. We know there's sex, there's money, there's power, there's prestige. But all of it's going to be gone when we're gone. We're here to know you. Not just intellectually, even the demons know you exist, but personally. Give us opportunities to know you and to make you known. We can just take people in little steps, especially now around the holidays, just to ask them questions about life. Ask them questions about how they're doing. Ask them questions about, is there anything I can pray for you about? Ask them, you know what, what's life all about? Where do we go when we die? Just, just move people closer to you. Help us to do that. That's why what Jesus wants us to do, it's what the apostles want us to do. It's what Charlie devoted his life to doing. Yeah, he's known for politics, but he said politics is peanuts compared to the gospel. It's important, but it's not the most important thing we do. His politics came from his theology, not the other way around. And help. Help that to be the case with us as well. I pray you'd give the people listening and watching opportunities. If they don't know answers, have them go out and find answers. It's all over. There's so many places they could go to get answers. There's books, there's podcasts, there's, of course, the Bible itself. Help us to make a difference for you. Help us to keep this, what appears to be a revival going. We thank you for giving us Charlie for the years that you gave us. Now help us to carry the torch after him. In Christ's name, Amen.
- [69:36]
A
Amen. Thank you so much. Everyone needs to follow Dr. Frank Turek his podcast I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. They can follow you on social media to see your tour and all of the amazing things you say. Thank you so much.
- [69:50]
B
Thank you, Ally. Thanks for all you're doing. Friends, go out, get toxic empathy. Make it happen.
- [69:54]
A
Thank you. Sa.