← Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Ep 1272 | Your Self-Care Is Making You Weak: Therapist Drops Hard Truths | RaQuel Hopkins
01:00:56
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- [00:00]
A
Before today's episode, I want to take a second to tell you about Fellowship Home Loans. You've probably heard there's a standoff right now between Trump and the Federal Reserve. Trump is pushing hard to bring interest rates down and get the economy moving, but Jerome Powell's holding firm for now because inflation's still hanging around. That means that rates could drop at any moment. And when they do, the prepared people out there will move fast. That's why now is the time to talk to my friends at Fellowship Home Loans. They'll help you run the numbers, look at the full picture and ask the honest question, what is it going to take to get into the home your family needs right now? Even if rates aren't ideal today, if the right home is in front of you, don't miss it. There's a saying they love. Marry the home, date the rate. You can always refinance later. They are doing business by the book and they'll help you out. They'll even give you a 500 credit at closing when you go to fellowship homeloans.com alli where you can get a free consultation. Terms apply CSIGHT for details Fellowship Home Loans Mortgage Lending by the Book Nationwide Mortgage Bankers DBA Fellowship Home Loans Equal Housing Lender NMLS Number 81932 your pain is not special. Not all of your emotions are valid. And life is not all about you. These are the messages from this countercultural mental health expert that we've got on the show today. Raquel Hopkins is known as the capacity expert on Instagram. I came across her post earlier this year and I thought, wow, we are on the same page and you don't hear a lot of mental health professionals making the statements that she does. She's got some tough love for us today that I know you guys are going to love. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good ranchers. Go to good ranchers.com use code ali at checkout. That's good ranchers.com code ali. Raquel, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Could you tell everyone who you are and what you do? Yes.
- [02:07]
B
I'm currently in a season of transition, so I don't know what I do. I think that what I'm called to be doing is finding ways to support people in developing and transforming into the best version of themselves. So whether that's in the corporate space or, or having conversations around mental health.
- [02:27]
A
Okay. And you're a coach, right?
- [02:29]
B
I'm a coach. I'm a licensed therapist and I also work in the HR space. So my whole life is centered around dealing with people.
- [02:38]
A
Yes. Okay, tell me a little bit about what we were talking about off camera. You said. What'd you call it? Educrastination. The educrastination going back to school when you don't know what to do led you to where you are. Right? Yep.
- [02:53]
B
So I was in the HR space, and I had decided I was working as VP of HR at the time. And in 2019, I was like, there has to be more to life than this. It's nice to be able to, I guess, have a sense of freedom from a financial standpoint, but I just didn't feel like I was giving back in any way besides the people that were closest to me. And I decided to go back to school to get this second master's in clinical and mental health counseling. And when I started the program, I was like, oh, what is this? And once I got into the program, I found another passion of mine, which has always been helping people, supporting people. And as I started to pay attention to the conversations around mental health, I was like, we've kind of lost the plot. So let me go back to this Educate Nation because I just made a decision last week to go back to school again.
- [03:52]
A
Oh, my goodness. Okay.
- [03:55]
B
It's not because I don't have clarity. I think that what I'm really leaning into is I really love learning, and when it comes to my craft, I really want to be the best, whatever that means or whatever that looks like. So I think I'm going to go back to school and get my doctorate.
- [04:10]
A
Okay.
- [04:10]
B
So I told you first.
- [04:12]
A
Okay. So next time you're on maybe, maybe not next time, but at some point you'll be Dr. Hopkins.
- [04:18]
B
Yes, possibly.
- [04:19]
A
Okay, that's exciting. Okay, so you mentioned something there. You said once you started taking these mental health courses, you got your second masters, you started seeing that we kind of lost the plot when it comes to mental health. What do you mean by that?
- [04:34]
B
So if we go to. So I'll just take you back to when I was actually in this program. So as we're reading about the pros and cons of what it means to be a human and experiencing life, I just read it or interpret the information as just pros and cons. If you grow up in a two parent household, single parent household, they're going to be pros and cons to all of those things. And I remember coming across a definition of mental health that I cannot find today. And I really wish that I could, but there was one word in there, and it was optimization. And I was like, optimization. So I'm not supposed to protect my peace, protect my mental health. What would it look like for me to actually optimize my mental health? And that's where things started changing for me. So another thing that was interesting during this period is I was in this program during COVID every. The world was struggling at that time. Right. So it was like we were doubling down on making people feel good, but it still was not in alignment with textbook per se, in terms of how we support people. So as a person, as an individual going through the program, I'm always looking at the information. How could this help me? Because if I can't figure out how to apply this to my life, I don't know how it can necessarily support others. So I started exploring beyond what was being offered in the textbook. I'm a reader, I love reading. And I started learning about adult development and just pulling the layers back. And I just realized that we had started talking about mental health in a way that did not support the complexity of what it means to be human and just the dynamics of your mental health being, having the ability to be flexible and agile and just dynamic. We had gotten. We, well, we, we still are there today to where people hear the word mental health and it's almost like a safe word. Like if Allie uses the word mental health or I have to be cautious or mindful of what I say to her, and to me, that's entirely wrong.
- [06:37]
A
Yeah. So when you saw that definition of optimization, I'd love for you to break that down. So you liked that definition? Loved it better than you're saying. You said, wait, I'm not supposed to protect my peace? Because just from an outsider perspective, definitely what I hear from a lot of therapists or pseudo therapists online is that it's all about protecting yourself, your self, care, your space, your peace, whatever it is. But it sounds like the, the optimization definition that you heard got your wheels turning, right?
- [07:10]
B
So I, I, going back to, to what you're speaking to, I think that we all have to learn to care for ourselves, and I all have to learn to care for ourselves. Because as we go through life and you experience these transitions, whether it's getting married, having children, starting a new job, life is always going to ask you, like, who are you and who is it that you want to become? So the ability to lose who you are is very strong as well, which is why it's important to learn how to take care of yourself. But taking care of yourself is not so much about protection. Because when I hear the word protection, it's to keep you safe from harm and injury. When I think about nurturing oneself, that is what mental health is more about. Like you have to nurture yourself. And when you start to nurture yourself, you open yourself up to other possibilities. So you take for example, if I am focusing on nurturing myself, I can open up to start nurturing other things around me. The goal is not to become self centered in your worldviews, your beliefs, your ways of operating. And I think that that foundational concept of not becoming self centered is also related to how we develop as humans. At some point we're all gonna look back over our lives and say, did I live with a sense of integrity or despair? Like, am I proud of how I contributed to those around me, how I showed up in the world? So, and that's why that word optimization stood out to me, because I was the queen of protect your peace and protect your mental health. Yeah, but I was not happy.
- [08:54]
A
Yeah, that's kind of something that I see a lot. The people who are most concerned with protecting themselves and putting themselves first are very often unhappy. And you've talked about that. This obsession with self care, like what I hear you saying is that stewarding your body and yourself. Well, like from a Christian perspective, I think that's part of what we are responsible for doing is caring for ourselves well, while also meeting the needs of other people and serving people around as well. But we hear all the time that you basically should sacrifice everything on the altar of self care. What's your thought on that?
- [09:31]
B
So when you say, I'll tell you what came to my mind when you said, from a Christian perspective, I think that we are responsible for helping people carry their burdens.
- [09:42]
A
Right.
- [09:42]
B
And when they say burden, like crises, if you're experiencing grief, if you're having a difficult time, I think that where we've lost the plot is also being able to carry both. So helping others carry their burden while also carrying your load. And that's where the personal responsibility comes in to where you are constantly thinking about, not constantly thinking about, but considering your mindset, your attitude, your outlook on, on, on life. And I think that we do not have a very good balance of those things, which is why I will say that if you can't make the distinction between burden and load, figuring out what's yours to carry or where you end and where you begin, it's a lack of capacity. And I like to say it's a lack of Capacity because it's a reflection of being underdeveloped. And I don't want to. When people hear me say the word underdeveloped. We hate it as adults, but it's no. We're no different from children. Like, as adults, we don't stop growing, evolving and growing as human beings. And in my mind, when I hear someone say that I may be underdeveloped, it doesn't mean that I'm weak. It just says that there's still more growing to. To happen. Which is why I don't like the whole healing and all of the terminology that we're using.
- [11:01]
A
Yeah. First sponsor is We Heart Nutrition. You know, I love We Heart nutrition. It works so well for my body. It really makes me feel good. And my levels are top notch because every ingredient in We Heart Nutrition, so supplements is made in the most bioavailable form. I have taken multivitamins and prenatals for as long as I can remember. But it wasn't until I switched to WE Heart Nutrition at the beginning of 2024 that I noticed a very real difference in my immune response to illness, my ability to recover, my ability to fight off sickness. Also the health of my hair, skin, and nails. It's improved so much. They care about every single ingredient that's put into their vitamins. And I'm so excited. They just came out with two products. They have a wholesome probiotic. It uses the most researched probiotic strains for gut health and immunity. They also have wholesome immunity. And this helped me so much when I thought that I was coming down with a cold last week. It's got selenium, it's got vitamin C, D, zinc, even colostrum. I mean, I tackled that cold like nobody's business. And I really do attribute it to the wholesome immunity supplement that I added to my vitamin routine. And I'm just so thankful for Jacob and Kristen. They're the real deal. Christian, mom and dad, they are amazing. And they care so much about glorifying God by offering you an amazing product. Go to weheartnutrition.com use my code ALI for 20 off. That's weheartnutrition.com code ALI. You have described self care as not about doing less, but doing more to achieve alignment, mental clarity, and presence even in imperfect circumstances. You said self care was about how individuals chose to show up in the world, reflecting a grounded state rather than immediately your tool for relief. What do you mean by that?
- [12:59]
B
I think that a lot of times when we talk about self care, a lot of it is the instant gratification, or I like to say, managing our symptoms. And if we are constantly focusing on managing our symptoms, whether it's overwhelmed, whether it's feeling exhausted, you never really learn how to grow through those things or find sustainable solutions. So I think that you have a part of the population that's like, I just need to figure out how to cope, how to manage these symptoms. And then you have people that want to think about their mental health from an optimization standpoint, where they're really looking for solutions.
- [13:35]
A
Do you think much of the therapy world today has made people mentally weak?
- [13:41]
B
Just. Just say it, Ali. I would use the word fragile, and I would say, well, yeah, I mean, call a spade a spade, right? Yeah. We can say weak.
- [13:57]
A
Yeah. Because you were talking about how you actually need to work through difficult circumstances and hard feelings and difficult relationships. It's not always just about protecting yourself from bad feelings. Right? Mm.
- [14:10]
B
So most people, I always say this is kind of like my motto is, a lot of us want to feel better, but does anybody really want to become better? Because if the goal is always on feeling better, how do you actually grow as a person? When we know that our feelings are not facts, feelings are also fleeting. And I think that we have gotten so wrapped up in validating people that we have not created space for growth and development. And that is a real issue. That's a real issue, because I always go back to. Mental health is not the absence of struggle, is not the absence of pain. And if you don't learn to accept that real truth and. Or reality, I don't know how you can truly exist amongst others or just in this world.
- [15:06]
A
Yeah. Tell me your thoughts on empathy.
- [15:12]
B
So I would agree, because I read your book, I did. I would agree that empathy can be toxic. I think that anytime that empathy is not coupled with accountability, then I don't think that that is a reflection of kindness or compassion. I think that when I think of empathy or the definition of empathy is what being able to place yourself in someone else's shoes. But I also think that if I place myself within your shoes, I also still need to understand where I end and where you begin. And that's where that personal responsibility comes, comes back to play. And I think that empathy, because I've been called or people have said, now that I speak about mental health in the way that I do, that she's not an empathetic person. And I remember when I first went viral, I was like, oh, my gosh, that really hurts, because I'm not An empathetic person. I actually truly do care about people. Now. How I choose to express that may not be in alignment with how people want to hear it, but it still doesn't change truth. So I do think that empathy can be toxic. And I make the joke. I have a 10 year old. It would be like when I think of soccer, we all want the kids that can, you know, nobody wants the weak child. Right. I'm not gonna tell my kid that he's good when there's an opportunity for him to improve. Like, to me, that would be toxic empathy, because the goal is to build people up. And I can't build you up if the focus is always on affirming and or validating you. I think the struggle, though, with empathy.
- [17:01]
A
Is.
- [17:03]
B
How do I not fall victim to trying to convince you of truth and creating connection? I think that that's the hardest part.
- [17:13]
A
Yeah. I think people have lost the art of being able to connect without conceding or have compassion without compromise. And it is possible. Like I think of the analogy we were talking about our kids. Like, if your child comes down and is like, oh, there's a monster in the corner of my room. And you can express understanding and have compassion for them, but the loving thing to do is not to send them back to the room and say, you're right, yeah, there is a monster. Just, you know, go back. It's to turn the light on.
- [17:44]
B
Yeah.
- [17:44]
A
It's to show them the truth and to say, understand that you're scared, but your fear actually isn't grounded in reality. Look, because even if that does hurt their feelings temporarily, that's the better thing. Or else they're going to be scared forever and that fear is going to grow into something bigger.
- [18:01]
B
Avoidance.
- [18:01]
A
Yeah, it's the same analogy that you gave with soccer. You know, if he thinks he's. Who's a soccer star? Messy, isn't that someone, and he's really not. Good. Then he's going to be super disappointed.
- [18:14]
B
You know, the world tells him the truth.
- [18:16]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yes. You talk about like the danger of emotionally rescuing people. Can you talk about what that means?
- [18:24]
B
It goes back to validation and affirming people. So when we, when we talk about emotionally rescuing someone. Right. It's. If you tell me that you're sad right now. Right. The goal is most people, what they'll do is they'll wrap their arms around you. It's understandable that you're feeling sad. If I was feeling this way, I would feel this way oftentimes. And I think that and this is something that I've been trying to figure out myself because I know that I do it well. But it's learning to actually articulate it and explain it. I don't validate all emotions and I don't validate all emotions because it's internal data. And if it's internal data for you, you have to learn to work with that information in the same way that you would with anything else. So I always tell people, is it something that you need to learn from? Is it something that you actually need to feel because you're avoiding whatever this emotion is? Or is it something that you need to act upon? And most people, a lot of the mental health conversations are centered around like it's important that you talk about your emotions. Well, not really. Like everything doesn't necessarily deserve a seat at the table. It's more so for you to be aware of and acknowledging your emotions, which is how I don't understand how we've gotten into these conversations around, I don't know, your emotions matter or your feelings matter. No, it matters because it's internal data for you. In order for you to figure out how to navigate the world, you're going to have to understand how they show up for you, because sadness may not show up for the same way for, for the both of us, just based off of how we experience the world. And that's the information that you need.
- [20:18]
A
I have heard that phrase so much. All feelings are valid. And I just think about the word. I always like to think about defining my terms and valid means. There's truth to it. Like if something is valid that is representative of a reality, but that's not really true when it comes to our feelings. And I even talked to someone who's like head of Sel at a school and she was saying that she teaches these kindergarteners that all feelings are valid. And I'm like, well, I don't know that I want, you know, my five year old to hear that her jealousy of her sister, her anger that she has to share is valid. We can talk about that and it can be a real feeling. But valid means rooted in truth. And I just think that's not the best message for anyone to hear, especially kids.
- [21:07]
B
I would agree. I mean, I don't teach my children that either. I teach them to be able to express themselves. Learning to figure out what you have internalized, to figure out how you want to actually move forward. I mean, I teach my 10 year old that. I mean, even though he'll say it's more about My thoughts, It's not my emotions. I'm like, it's your emotions.
- [21:32]
A
But yeah, that's so true. How do you think this shows up even more? Like, we've already talked about it a little bit, but when we're parenting, like, how do we create these resilient kids who can overcome hard feelings and hard circumstances instead of just, you know, empathizing and affirming with every single difficult thing they go through?
- [21:54]
B
I think with children, I think it's a lot easier because those opportunities are always presenting themselves. Whether it's your kid comes home and says that someone picked on me, the first thing is not to say, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, you didn't deserve that. The truth is like, people will say things that doesn't necessarily align well. People will say things that are not always kind. But I always. I'll use my son as an example. I remember when he first came home and he had told me, mom, that people are picking on me about size of my head. And there's some truth there, okay? I didn't get wrapped up on. I acknowledge that it hurts when people are not saying what you consider to be nice things. But it was also something you have to learn to live what God has blessed you with, like, this is the size of your head. You and your dad have something in common. And because of that, how do you learn to accept how God has made you? And I think that when it just in general, when it comes to these mental health conversations, I think that the spirituality part is missing there. Because if I am made in his image or fearfully and wonderfully made, there are some things that you're going to have to learn to accept about your own lived realities. And that's not always coupled with compassion and even kindness all the time.
- [23:24]
A
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- [25:14]
B
I do. I will watch my children fight.
- [25:18]
A
Oh, yeah, tell us. Okay, walk us through that.
- [25:20]
B
I do. I just did it the other day.
- [25:23]
A
Yeah.
- [25:25]
B
Because I think that you have to learn how to resolve things on your own. I have a 10 year old and I have a 3 year old and my 3 year old is. He's just different. He has his own way of being and I want to be able to nurture that. And when I look at him, I see an older adult in him. Right. Like, people are gonna have to learn how to work with him and he's gonna have to learn to work with other people so I don't get in the middle of their squats. I'm like, kaden, figure it out. Like he's three. Figure. Figure it out, Cam, figure it out. And I think it's actually when the other day when they were fighting, they, they somehow figured it out. And then they went and got a bucket of water and was playing with duckies in it. And I was like, oh my gosh.
- [26:14]
A
They figured it out.
- [26:15]
B
They figured it out. And I think that we have forgotten that people will figure things out if you create the space for them to do so. And I think that children is the best example because these opportunities always present themselves, whether it's us as parents apologizing for how we show up, if our children are in sports. Like, you're not gonna always have a great day, you're not gonna always have a great game. You're not gonn. I tell my 10 year old today, like, if he tells me that my Stomach hurts, Mommy. And I don't think I'm gonna be able to go out in the field. I don't play soccer. Son, I think it's your responsibility to let your coach know that you don't feel well. And if you don't feel well, you also have a responsibility to the team to, say, pull me off of the field because I'm not able to give my best right now.
- [27:01]
A
Yeah.
- [27:02]
B
So I don't have those conversations for my children in any way because I'm thinking about what I want to produce in the world.
- [27:11]
A
Yeah, that's a good, very, like, practical thing there. That. Okay. If you really feel bad, then you will have the courage to go and tell your coach. And even that, like, little bit of an awkward conversation, the child might feel awkward, like it's developing something.
- [27:29]
B
It is.
- [27:30]
A
That's really good. Have you read, I'm sure you've seen, like, Jonathan Haidt's work, the Anxious Generation, and he talks a lot about cultivating independence in our kids. Like, and I did this the other day, actually, and I was sitting right there. Very low risk situation, but still, you know, we were at Chick Fil. A six year old, she wanted to get a cookie. I told her that she could go get a cookie. And I said, but you have to go order it. And I gave her my credit card. And she went over there and I took a little picture of her, but she went over there and she asked for a cookie. Just one cookie. And she had that back and forth. She put her little card on the reader and she did great. Again, not high risk, but it just reminded me because, Tip. It's just easier for us to do things ourselves. It would have been easier for you to call the coach and be like, hey. But we as parents have to take the extra time to allow our kids to do the little bit of a difficult thing.
- [28:26]
B
And it's the joy that they feel too. I just finished, finished potty training my son, and he's so happy to be able to say that I did it. And I don't think that we're any different from that. Like, we feel empowered when we know that we can carry our low or the weight of the world in a way that continues to push us forward or move us forward. I don't think that changes.
- [28:55]
A
Yeah, I think you're right. You talk a lot about capacity. You're a capacity expert. Tell us what that means.
- [29:01]
B
So capacity is actually a term that's rooted in adult development. So when I was looking for something to help me on My own journey. Because the very basic of what we were talking about in mental health, it didn't have enough substance for me. So I got into adult development. There's this guy named Robert Keegan. He talks about these forms of mind and how we develop over time. And that's where the concept of capacity came from. But I knew that the way that we as a society think about capacity is from weight volume, right? How much can you actually carry? And capacity in the lens and from the lenses or the perspective of adult development was more so about what can you produce consistently? And are you paying attention to what you can produce consistently? And if you end up being proud of what you're producing consistently, it represents your emotional and your mental capacity. Robert Keegan, he talks about 70% of the adult population live with a socialized mindset. So if we just take the mental health industry, what that means is. And I'll use my own journey, okay, Raquel is now a part of the mental health industry, right? Will you succumb to this trend or will you speak from your values? And what most people will do is they'll say, okay, I'm a mental health professional, so I will insert myself within the community. And what ends up happening is you start to lose yourself more and more and more over time because it's more so about this sense of belonging. And the sense of belonging can also have a shrinking in different ways.
- [30:46]
A
Okay, explain that. Can you break that down?
- [30:49]
B
You think about any community, right? When it comes to a sense of belonging, that is like an inherent need and desire for us as humans. But it's also like a double edged sword. Because if sense of belonging is so important, if you don't have the ability to detach from it at times, you can limit your growth. So let's just say I wouldn't be having this conversation with you right now. If I had the urge to be connected with mental health professionals, it didn't feel right to me. What I saw as producing on social media wasn't a reflection of what mental health was really about. And if I went into some of my deeper values, it just wasn't in alignment. So the desire not to be associated with mental health professionals and, or to be accepted and being okay with being misunderstood is the very reason why I'm sitting here on this couch with you. This comfortable couch.
- [31:59]
A
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- [33:39]
B
Yes.
- [33:39]
A
Compromising your values, compromising the truth just so people will like you. And to me, that is like the road that leads to what, what, you know, we often call institutional capture. It's how like a college or an entity or an organization gets captured by a particular ideology. And I do think the mental health institution in general has been captured by this feelings first me centric fragile mindset that has made people just very dependent and not resilient. And so it seems to me that a lot of the mental health industry is doing the very opposite of what you're saying. Not helping people expand their capacity, but actually reducing their capacity to only being able to think about yourself all the time.
- [34:26]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, it's such a, it's a difficult conversation, especially when we're talking about capacity, because my capacity is not necessarily going to reflect your capacity and vice versa. So I think it's important to know that we won't all have the same capacity. The question more so is asking ourselves, am I positioning myself to avoid things because it feels hard because we won't all have like, we won't all show up in the world the same way. Because we all have different gifts. Our purpose, our calling may be completely different, but it's like making sure that you don't stop at what's hard because it presents. Presents a challenge for what you think your current capacity is. Which is why I talk about the labels so much. Like, when you hear people now anxiety and adhd, I'm like, when did it ever become okay to make those things a part of your identity so much? When I say that living with ADHD or anxiety is just context. It's just information. It just means that. That maybe you will have to navigate the world a little differently than what someone else may. But that doesn't mean that your potential. Your potential changes. It just means that you may have to work at this harder than someone else does.
- [35:57]
A
Yeah. You're not defined by it.
- [35:59]
B
Yeah.
- [35:59]
A
Unless you allow yourself to be defined by it. But like you said, is that diagnosis just putting yourself in a position to avoid hard things?
- [36:07]
B
Yeah.
- [36:08]
A
And I think we all would have to be honest with ourselves about that, because there's probably a lot of excuses that we make for ourselves of why we're not doing X, Y, Z. And maybe sometimes they're real, but maybe sometimes we're just trying to avoid hard feelings.
- [36:22]
B
Yes. I mean, I know that I'm in this season where I'm working on discipline, and I am disciplined in a lot of areas of my life, but when it comes to my eating habits, the self control is not there. And I can sit here and make up a bunch of excuses, or I can just say, you lack discipline. Does that mean that I'm not compassionate with myself? No. Like, it's hard to grow if you don't create space to. To be compassionate. But I think it's really hard to grow when you're not honest with yourself.
- [36:55]
A
Mm. Yeah. Gosh, it can be so popular to blame all of our problems on other people, which really kind of goes back to the Garden of Eden. Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the snake. When really, ultimately we have to take responsibility. And I like what you said. Like, you can still acknowledge that you have challenges. Like, in different seasons of life. Everyone, like, everyone has different factors. I love what you said, like, to your son, that, okay, but this thing is kind of true. It doesn't mean that people should make fun of you. No one should make fun of anyone. But this is a reality, and they might not accept it, but what can you do, right? Can you accept it? And I think if we focused more on that, like. Like, what can I do? Then that's actually a lot more liberating because we can't control what other people do and how they feel and what they say. And I know that when I'm trying to do that, that is actually what wears me out. And that actually reduces my capacity because then I'm not focused on what I can accomplish. I'm so distracted by trying to control everyone else.
- [37:57]
B
Yes, I, you know, I was thinking, because I do read the comments, even though they say don't read the comments, I do read the comments.
- [38:04]
A
I do too, sometimes.
- [38:06]
B
I read the comments more from an accountability standpoint for myself.
- [38:12]
A
Yeah.
- [38:12]
B
Because when you're passionate about something.
- [38:19]
A
You.
- [38:19]
B
Can start to silence people. So I was thinking about, because I am a big proponent of or a big advocate for personal responsibility, I think.
- [38:30]
A
That.
- [38:33]
B
What I would want people to know is when we're seeing personal responsibility, that does not mean that other challenges or certain barriers may not exist. But what does not change is it may not have been your fault, you may not have caused it, but it still is your responsibility. And I think that when we fall victim to wanting to pick and choose, when we accept universal truths, that's when we start to fall into the category of becoming much more fragile.
- [39:07]
A
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- [40:42]
B
I think it's, it's a disconnection from your heart. I don't. And when I say it's a disconnection from your heart, it's a disconnection from. Understanding your needs, your wants and your desires is also another form of revealing the lack of capacity that you, you have. I think that burnout has been become a catch all phrase for people that don't know how to advocate for themselves, people that are not comfortable making hard decisions. I always think about professionals. Sometimes you may have to say you have to step away from the job. But if you're more concerned about the money that you make, you may still put yourself in position to still experience burnout because you're not willing to be courageous, you're not willing to lean into faith. That's what happens when you experience burnout. And I say that from a personal, from a personal place. When I experienced burnout, it was because I did not want to face some very hard truth and, or maybe some difficult decisions.
- [41:47]
A
So burnout is not just about working too many hours?
- [41:50]
B
No, like, because I mean you could work a hundred hours and not feel burnout based off of whatever it is that you're, you're doing. But I think that life is always going to ask you, you know, who is it that you are and who is it that you want to become? Like right now I'm managing a full time job, my, my two children, my husband. This social media has taken on a life for itself. And I feel very fulfilled. Do I feel exhausted sometimes? Yes, I do. Am I honest about when I feel exhausted? Yes, I am. But am I burnt out? No. Because I am choosing everything that I have on my plate today.
- [42:30]
A
You and I are very blessed to be able to do something professionally that we love, that we feel for fulfilled doing. And we could do it a lot like you said, without ever feeling totally depleted. But there are people out there who that's just not their season of life. That's not where God has put them. Maybe they're in a job that they have to have, but they don't love it. And they do feel burnout. How? Like, how would you coach someone through that, that, okay, you're not in Your dream job, but this is where you are right now. How can you still find fulfillment?
- [43:03]
B
I think one of the greatest skills for humans is your meaning making. And when I say your meaning making, What I'm referring to is not necessarily a way to cope with something that you don't want to do. I think that we have to acknowledge that we're still making a choice, right? Because we all have to work, right, in order to live. But get clear about why you're choosing this particular job. For example, I always say I use this pain gain model, like, what's the cost to staying here? And what's the pain of deciding to walk away? And when you can make the distinction between those two, I think that it pulls you away from focusing on burnout. Because I always say the greatest freedom is the freedom of choice. And as much as we feel like we don't always have choice, you do. And I like to remind people of the choices that you do have. Even though you don't enjoy the job, you're still choosing. And I think that that's where we can get wrapped up in the feelings part. Now, if I had a client that I was working with, one on one, of course I'm going to acknowledge and validate, but it still doesn't change that you're choosing.
- [44:23]
A
So how do we, like, if you're in the midst, not just a job, but anything that is like that is difficult, you're saying that you are. You're choosing how you respond, right? You're choosing how you show up. You're even choosing the feelings that you give air time to. Because maybe, I don't know, you could tell me how you think about this. But when I think of feelings, I don't know if I necessarily care. I can choose every single feeling that starts to, you know, pop up or every thought that pops into my head that I'm like, you know, where did that come from? But I can choose what I give air time to. I can choose what I bring center stage and what I dwell on, right?
- [45:05]
B
So you're so going back to these feelings, right? I like to make the distinction between emotions and feelings. Emotions, you're right, we don't control those, right? Like, if something were to, if we hit a loud, loud bang in the studio right now, we both would jump, right? So I would say, like, it would be surprise, it could be fear that shows up. But how you and I express that will not be the same. And then the feelings is the interpretation of those emotions. So which is why emotions like these conversations around being emotional, emotionally intelligent are difficult because you don't have control over emotions hitting you. If you get a phone call that you just lost someone, most people will probably go into a state of shock, or you might immediately start to cry. What is different and or unique for each person is how you end up expressing those emotions or handling that internal information. And then because we're humans, we get into the feelings or the thoughts, it's the stories that we start to associate with those emotions.
- [46:13]
A
Okay, can you keep going on that? The stories that we start to associate with those emotions. So what do you mean by stories?
- [46:19]
B
So let's just say we did hear a loud pop in here right now. Right. And then the. The guys tell us, like, everything is okay, but I'm like, I don't know. Like, the world has gotten to be this crazy place. Was it a pop? I can no longer focus even though they've said, like, everything is good. So I have of. Instead of taking that information that. Whether the fear or the surprise that I've gotten, just acknowledging it, what I've done is I've moved into my feelings, which is I have these world beliefs about, like, how the world is changing and how dangerous it has become. So I can no longer focus on our conversation anymore. So that becomes an interpretation that I've assigned to fear. Yeah.
- [47:04]
A
Yeah. I think about this just how with how we feel about ourselves sometimes, like, you have a feeling of insecurity. Someone says something to you, maybe that person didn't mean anything, but you are then attaching a new story to your feeling of insecurity about that person, and you don't even realize maybe that you started creating a whole, like a whole different story about this person and what they meant and what they're thinking and what they're saying behind your back and what they're doing. And. And really you've just kind of created a narrative that you've attached to a feeling that you have. And it's possible to even start including other people in that story completely unfairly. That is a decision you're saying.
- [47:43]
B
Yeah, that is a decision. Because just using the insecurities, let's just say that I say something in regards to an insecurity that you have that I don't know.
- [47:54]
A
Yeah.
- [47:55]
B
Can you hold space or can you carry the sadness that comes with that insecurity versus making it about me? Can you be honest and say, like, what Raquel just said, it has me feeling sad because I haven't learned how to work through this insecurity. I don't know if I'll ever be able to move on from this insecurity. That's the data.
- [48:20]
A
Right. And it's okay to acknowledge that without like spinning up the stories. And it really, really should make us think about every feeling that we have that passes through us of what story am I attaching to this emotion? Yep. And something I've been thinking about. You can tell me what you think about. It is I think when we make ourselves the main character of every story, we become very easily offended. We become very anxious because you start to see everything is about you. Oh, that person did that on purpose. That person did, did that because they, they don't want me to do this. Or it starts making you paranoid. You start thinking you have control of everyone. And to me, like when you just remove yourself from that main character position, when you say, okay, it's not all about me, that actually is really freeing because you realize that not everyone's trying to hurt you or get you or stop you or whatever.
- [49:16]
B
Humility and a few of those other capacity traits that I would say to get to that place. I think what comes to my mind when you say that I did a video on your pain is not unique and, or special. And what made me think of creating that video was it's almost like people, a lot of people today feel like they have a monopoly on pain and just struggle and adversity. And when you start to really understand humans as like everybody, it's going through something, everybody's going to experience something. And that's part of what's in within adult development. Right. You're able to separate yourself, subject versus object, like it's a real thing. And if I am is the center of your world, you never can step outside of self long enough to see how all of these things are interconnected and start to really hold complexity.
- [50:20]
A
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- [52:01]
B
So if capacity is about what you can consistently produce, I think that being grounded in something that doesn't give you an out and or pass when circumstances reveal otherwise is what creates sustainability.
- [52:27]
A
Okay. You might have to break that down for us who don't have our double masters almost doctorate.
- [52:36]
B
So I'll go back and I'll use myself as an example. There are times where I would really like to default to how I feel. Right. And can I be really, really honest?
- [52:58]
A
Sure.
- [52:58]
B
Okay. I was nervous about coming on your podcast and I was nervous about coming onto your podcast because being in the spotlight is very new for me. And when we talk about context, I understand. Well, not understand. I know I'm a black woman. Right. And there are certain things that are that I understand from my own experiences. The fear was going back to what I was speaking about earlier, about this socialized mindset. I am still very much so a part of the community. Right. My identity is there in a lot of ways. But if I go back to my belief in God is how do you separate yourself so that you can continue to open yourself up to love just in general? So I was nervous about being placed in a political box because if you notice, with my content, I don't even really talk about my faith. I try to let my words reflect who I am and what I believe in.
- [54:10]
A
So you were nervous because it's a conservative podcast. Yes. And most of your community is not?
- [54:15]
B
No. My community is actually very diverse. But there are still things that I am having to work through as I become stronger in my own faith. And some of that is not centering parts of my identity as well. And some of that, that's being a black woman woman. So coming onto your podcast, it was like, oh, my gosh, now they're going to say that I'm this and I'm this and I'm that. It's like, can you handle the. The, The. The heat and. Or the pressure that may come with that? Because I've already experienced that in some ways, right where I go within my own community. And there's a sense of rejection because I'm not speaking the same language that they may be speaking. Like, I think is. Again, it's context. Like, do you understand how people view you and what your experiences are? But can you hold enough space for all of the things so that you. You can connect with a person like Allie without making judgments about who she. Who she is? So I would tell you that when I. When I started, like, looking at your videos, and I was like, she loves the Lord. And I was like, what do I see in myself in her? And it was the sense of courageousness. It was. Not everybody's gonna understand what it means to truly be passionate about something, and that's what created the connection. And to me, that's what goes back to God. So am I okay with being, I guess, crucified or judged because I'm on a conservative podcast? I would say, yes, I am. Yes, I am.
- [55:48]
A
You'll get a lot more encouragement than you will negativity, although maybe not from. Maybe from people outside of the people that you fear criticizing you. But there will be a lot of people who are super excited to hear from you. We have. The reason, you know, why I had you on is because I wrote not just Toxic Empathy, but the first book, you're not Enough, Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self Love. And whenever I was sent your stuff, I was like, yes. And I don't see a lot of people outside of, like, my conservative realm or certainly not in the mental health profession talking about that, that, oh, these things that you have heard are universally positive and should be the center of your life. Actually, it might be making you worse. And it. And I. So I do appreciate your courage in that because, you know, like you said, if you just wanted to be popular, you could just repeat the same mantras as every other, you know, psychologist has ever said. That it's all about you, that you're perfect the way you are, that you're enough.
- [56:52]
B
There's nothing you need to chill around.
- [56:54]
A
You, and that everything is everyone else's fault. That's a very popular message. You can make a lot of money off that.
- [57:00]
B
Yeah. Yeah, you can. There's a lot of. There's a monetary fact in creating a monetary factor in creating victims. I do do believe that we see it. I mean, we. We see it today. I've had conversations with other people, and they're like, raquel, I would have never touched this conversation with a thousand foot pole.
- [57:22]
A
Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, but obviously your social media has taken off, so there's something there. People want to hear what you're saying. Do you think. Do you see more people saying, okay, I actually need some tough love?
- [57:36]
B
I think I am seeing more encouragement than criticism, and I think it goes back to this whole concept of capacity when you were asking me about, like, God and family. I'm not saying that you have to be a Christian in order to follow me, but there are some universal truths, no matter what religion that you believe in, because we're all spiritual beings as well. So I decided. When I decided to come out and speak, I decided I was gonna speak to people. The things that make Ali and I similar. The same. And that's what I speak to. And I think it's hard for people to turn that off because I'm speaking to sort of like, your core.
- [58:19]
A
Yeah, definitely. Well, I definitely think that there's, like, a. A new push right now and a new desire for people to hear the truth. I think people are kind of tired of being coddled. You talked about adult development. I think they're. You know, we went through a period of everyone just hearing what they wanted to hear, and they're like, hang on, Arrested development for a second. Like, I didn't get all of the growth that I needed to, because people just coddled me for so long. And, you know, it's like. Like, you know, eating cupcakes for every meal. It's fun for, like, a day. And then you're like, oh, no, I need to exercise and eat some vegetables again. And I want to believe that that's kind of where we are when it comes to mental health, that people are waking up, that resilience and capacity and strength actually matter.
- [59:07]
B
Yeah. I think that. I think that where we got lost is because in order to develop your capacity, you do have to develop people emotionally. And there were so many conversations about people suppressing their emotions, not being honest about how they felt, and the stigma around just people not wanting to talk about their struggles in general. And I think that that's where the conversation has gotten lost. Like, I still believe that. Well, going back to. I've been trying to figure this out myself. How do we create communities of empowerment where we can talk about our struggles while also not victimizing people because I don't believe that you can grow. If all you ever give a person is tough love or you say just pull yourself up by your bootstraps. That's not how I'm growing as a person. I hold space for all the difficult emotions that I experience. I'm vulnerable with the people that I'm comfortable with. And that's how you continue to grow and evolve. And I'm very honest about, like, I don't want to be stuck. I don't want to be so wrapped up and self centered in myself that I don't produce something meaningful.
- [60:30]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So good. Where can people find you and read more of what you put out?
- [60:35]
B
I'm just on Instagram right now. Raquel the capacity expert is where you can find me. And yeah, that's it.
- [60:44]
A
Awesome. Well, Raquel, thank you so much for taking the time to join us and sharing your wisdom with us. I really appreciate it.
- [60:50]
B
Yeah. Thank you so much, Ali, for having me. I'm glad that I said yes. I think that that's what life is about. Saying yes. Yes. Continuing to be obedient.
- [60:58]
A
Yes. Well, thank you so much.
- [61:00]
B
Y.
- [61:08]
A
Sam.