Ep 1281 | Satanic or Sanctified? Skillet Gets Real About Christmas Controversy | John Cooper

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Episode 1281 | "Satanic or Sanctified? Skillet Gets Real About Christmas Controversy"
Guest: John Cooper (Skillet)
Air Date: December 19, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the cultural and theological controversy surrounding Skillet’s heavy rock rendition of "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel." Allie Beth Stuckey welcomes John Cooper, Skillet’s frontman, for a candid, lively conversation unpacking the accusations of the song being "demonic," his personal and family background with legalism in the church, his testimony of faith, and the band’s unwavering approach to sharing the Gospel—even amid criticism. The pair touch on spiritual legacy, the challenges within Christian music, and offer encouragement for faithful engagement in every vocation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Setting the Stage: The Christmas Song Controversy

• [00:01–04:59]
  • Allie introduces the controversy: Some accused Skillet’s "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel" of being "demonic" because of its heavy rock style.
  • John relays how fan requests led the band to release their first Christmas song—despite initial doubts about how his voice would suit Christmas music.
  • The reaction: overwhelmingly positive, but a vocal minority on social media accused the song of evil influences.
    • John: "People are gonna be like, ‘I’m not listening anymore. She hates marshmallows.’" [01:34] (Joking in the intro banter)
    • Allie: "There was a small fraction of people who wanted to sew some controversy." [03:54]

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2. John’s Background: Legalism, Music, and Faith

• [06:05–13:00]
  • John grew up Southern Baptist, in a "very, very rule-based" church heavily influenced by Bill Gothard’s teachings about music being inherently evil.
    • John: "Rock and roll during that time...was seen as maybe the worst thing the devil ever did on the planet ever." [06:32]
  • His mother, a piano and voice teacher, believed Christian rock was even more dangerous—“wolves in sheep’s clothing.” [09:17]
  • Anecdotes reveal the depth of legalism:
    • Banned from bringing home Christian rock cassette tapes.
    • Dress codes extended to hair and clothing color (black was "the devil’s color").
    • John’s pushback even as a child: "You taught me that the devil doesn’t create anything, he distorts things. So how can it be that he created an evil drumbeat?" [14:34]
  • Allie jokes: "God is a God of order, not disorder. That’s why I must not like jazz." [10:07]

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3. Processing Criticism: Empathy, Perspective, and Grace

• [13:01–18:43]
  • John isn’t rattled by today’s critiques—he understands where they’re coming from, having lived with similar thinking.
    • John: "I know these people. I love these people. They think they're saving people from Satan. All I can do is kind of laugh it off, really." [12:23]
  • Warns against deconstructing basic biblical faith because of bad church experiences:
    • "Don’t deconstruct from Christ…get rid of that stuff [humanly added rules], but don’t deconstruct from Christ, you know?” [14:34]
  • Finds joy and freedom in the gospel, advocating for a faith expressing the joy of Christ, not mere rule-keeping.

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4. Testimony & Calling: Family, Loss, and God’s Direction

• [18:43–24:48]
  • John’s mother battled cancer for years, passing when he was 15—amidst persistent family conflict over music and legalistic standards.
    • "Music has helped me so much…I’d love to do that for some other kid going through depression, suicidal thoughts, a death, getting bullied…” [21:58]
  • At 18, John feels God’s call to music, despite feeling "cursed" by elders’ prophecies on his mother’s deathbed that he’d lead people to hell with Christian music.
  • He chose obedience to God’s direct calling over well-meaning but misguided family warnings.

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5. Skillet’s Formation & Gospel-Focused Career

• [26:53–32:14]
  • Formation: John met his wife Korey through church connections—opposites in style and background but united in faith and purpose.
  • Early on, John received mentorship from a reformed-charismatic pastor who grounded him in theology and discipleship.
  • Skillet’s approach: always overt in sharing Jesus, refusing to dilute the gospel in crossover contexts.
    • John: "If we’re gonna cross over, we are going to never be ashamed of the gospel…we made it a point." [36:03]
• Notable Story:
  • "I only want to say that so people know Jacoby is his name. Good friend of mine…Jacoby did get born again…there is a lot of rock stars…getting truly born again over the last year…" [35:50]

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6. Impact Stories: Seeds of Faith and Gospel Encounters

• [37:18–44:02]
  • John shares profound testimonies of lives changed in unexpected ways:
    • NFL commercial featuring Skillet’s "Hero" leads an adult film industry couple to discover Christ. [39:44–42:14]
      • John: "All because of a TV commercial and an interview…Jesus is my hero. He died for me when I hated him…That one little seed.” [41:18]
    • Even subtle witness—a brief Scripture quote at a metal festival—can be a powerful tool.
  • Allie: "The word of God doesn't return void. It's going to accomplish exactly what God sends it out for.” [42:14]

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7. Encouragement for Faithful Living

• [44:02–47:55]
  • The show shifts to Christian integrity in all industries.
    • Allie: "We just have to be comfortable to count the cost and say, 'I'm gonna do what God has called me to anyway…'" [44:57]
    • John: "Never compromise those things. What the world has to offer…it’s worth nothing in the end. You count it all. Poo. That’s what Paul says." [47:21]

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8. Christian Music, Deconstruction, and Staying the Course

• [49:26–56:54]
  • Many musicians fall away due to lack of church involvement and accountability; the allure of fame and emotionalism can chip away at foundational faith.
    • John: "A lot of Christian musicians aren’t a part of a church. And I always tell them, like, you’re not going to last long." [53:51]
    • The church—true Christian community—is vital for long-term faithfulness.
  • Music’s spiritual power is highlighted: throughout cultures, music is nearly always tied to worship—either of God or false gods.

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9. The “O Come, O Come, Emmanuel” Backstory

• [58:08–62:55]
  • John outlines the creative and spiritual intent:
    • The heavy, angsty style represents the world’s brokenness and the longing for Christ’s coming.
      • John: "The world is not as we want it to be and we are longing for that day when every tear is wiped away...That is why this song gets really heavy…" [61:18]
    • A moving real-life connection: John learns that Charlie Kirk was shot the same day they recorded the song’s heaviest section, underscoring the world’s suffering and the need for Advent hope.
      • "I don’t think I’ll ever be able to watch the video or hear the song without remembering...It was just powerful to me. That’s what the song’s about…” [61:56]
    • Testimony of a "deconstructed" former worship leader whose emotional response to the music hinted at the enduring, evangelistic power of honest, raw Christian art. [58:45–60:59]

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10. Final Encouragements and Closing Thoughts

• [62:55–63:45]
  • Allie: "God truly is working all things together for the good of those who love him, using all of our different skills and passions…in these unseen and unsung moments of obedience that all believers are called to.” [62:55]
  • John thanks listeners and Allie, while reinforcing a hope-filled vision of Christian perseverance and faithfulness in public life.

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Notable Quotes

• "Rock and roll...was seen as maybe the worst thing the devil ever did on the planet ever."
  — John Cooper [06:32]

• "Don’t deconstruct from Christ…just get rid of some of the things that people probably good-heartedly added onto the faith that they really shouldn’t have."
  — John Cooper [14:34]

• "If we’re gonna cross over, we are going to never be ashamed of the gospel."
  — John Cooper [36:03]

• "All because of a TV commercial and an interview…and Jesus is my hero. He died for me when I hated him…That one little seed."
  — John Cooper [41:18]

• "Never compromise those things. What the world has to offer, even if it’s a ginormous amount out, it’s worth nothing in the end. You count it all. Poo. That’s what Paul says."
  — John Cooper [47:55]

• "If anything could bring me back to the faith I used to have, it would be something like this."
  — [Paraphrased Former Worship Leader’s reaction to Skillet’s song] [60:40]

• "We are longing for that day when every tear is wiped away…that is why this song gets really heavy."
  — John Cooper [61:18]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Time | Segment | |-------------|---------------------------------------------------------| | 00:01–04:59 | Introduction; Christmas song controversy | | 06:05–13:00 | John’s upbringing, legalism, and early music battles | | 14:34–18:43 | Faith, “deconstruction,” and personal testimony | | 18:43–24:48 | Loss of mother, sense of calling, overcoming family fears| | 26:53–32:14 | Skillet’s formation, gospel focus, meeting Korey | | 34:06–36:03 | Touring, gospel encounters, rock stars saved | | 37:18–44:02 | Testimonies: Music’s unexpected impact | | 44:02–47:55 | Christian conduct, integrity, blessing vs. prosperity | | 49:26–56:54 | Christian artists deconstructing, importance of church | | 58:08–62:55 | Story and theology of "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel" | | 62:55–63:45 | Final encouragements and closing |

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Tone and Style

The episode is informal, warm, and honest with humor and self-awareness. Both Allie and John strike a balance between seriousness and levity, addressing difficult issues without bitterness. The conversation is theologically anchored while still accessible to a broad Christian audience.

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Key Takeaways

• Criticism of Christian rock often springs from a tradition of legalism, which John understands from personal experience.
• Skillet’s approach to music is intentionally gospel-centered, committed to bold proclamation while remaining artistically authentic.
• God’s work is often unseen and untraceable in the moment—our faithfulness can have ripple effects far beyond what we see.
• Christian walk demands integrity, and compromise—even with good intentions or cultural pressure—eventually robs us of lasting, spiritual riches.
• The longing expressed in "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel" is both historical (Israel's Advent expectations) and present-day (the suffering and brokenness that make us cry, "Come Lord Jesus").
• Community, church accountability, and deep discipleship are essential for longevity in any calling, especially in contexts exposed to fame, money, or isolation.

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Recommended for listeners interested in:

• Faith and culture intersections
• Testimonies of overcoming legalism
• Evangelism in mainstream contexts
• Navigating criticism with grace
• Christian music history and influence

Transcript

[Allie]

Is rock Christmas music demonic? That might sound like a funny question, but this was really a controversy that went on when Skillet released their Christmas song, oh Come, oh Come Emmanuel. We've got John Cooper of Skillet here today to talk about some of the blowback that they got, but also his heart and the very touching story behind it. His testimony, too, woven into the story of why they wrote this song and why Skillet does what they do is just incredible. You guys are going to absolutely love this conversation. It is brought to you by our friends at Olive. Olive is a food scanning app that exposes what labels don't. Things like seed oils, dyes, additives, hidden toxins. This is how we make America healthy again by seeing what is really in our food. So download the Olive app today. Download the Olive app today. John Cooper, welcome to the podcast.

[John Cooper]

Good to be back. How are you?

[Allie]

I'm doing well. How are you doing?

[John Cooper]

Good. I like all the Christmas decorations. It looks.

[Allie]

Thank you.

[John Cooper]

Homey in here.

[Allie]

Thank you so much.

[John Cooper]

I feel like I need some hot cocoa.

[Allie]

Yeah, well, we got you water. Is that okay?

[John Cooper]

Water's fine.

[Allie]

Room temperature water.

[John Cooper]

Room temperature. Water is just as good. Do you like cocoa with marshmallows or without?

[Allie]

You know, I. Probably without. I'm actually not that much of a marshmallow gal.

[John Cooper]

All right.

[Allie]

I know it's big revelations today. Unrelatable.

[John Cooper]

I'm telling you what. And people are gonna be like, I'm not listening anymore. She hates marshmallows.

[Allie]

Exactly. What about you?

[John Cooper]

I go full marshmallow and whipped cream if they have it. Like a kid. Like with the sprinkles, too. Take it all.

[Allie]

You live in a cold place.

[John Cooper]

Yeah, Actually, you know what? We moved to Nashville about a year ago.

[Allie]

You don't live in a cold place anymore.

[John Cooper]

Yeah, today it's cold.

[Allie]

But no, you're the only one moving to Nashville. I hear. I hear no one else.

[John Cooper]

Yeah, no one else.

[Allie]

No one else is moving there. It's the hidden gem.

[John Cooper]

That's right.

[Allie]

But it is a great place. Good people are moving there.

[John Cooper]

Yeah. So I'm from Memphis, and then my wife is from Wisconsin, and I married into Wisconsin. That was part of the deal. And I took it because she was a good woman. But after 25 years, I am so glad to be gone. It's freezing up there. It's constantly snowy. You're bringing in mud, snowy mud all the time. Or salt, because there's just salt everywhere. And it's just. I'm so glad to be back in.

[Allie]

Tennessee, into the South And Memphis. Y' all didn't go back to Memphis, though?

[John Cooper]

No, no. Close enough.

[Allie]

Changed.

[John Cooper]

Memphis is a. Memphis is a tough place.

[Allie]

Yeah.

[John Cooper]

Yeah. I mean, I got held up at gunpoint in Memphis before we moved, so that was 2001.

[Allie]

Oh, long time ago.

[John Cooper]

So it's always. It's. It's increasingly become a rougher place.

[Allie]

Yeah.

[John Cooper]

And I remember getting held up by gunpoint, and I was like, I could leave here, you know?

[Allie]

Yeah. And then you left for the snow. You're like, the snow's better than this.

[John Cooper]

Yeah. Yes.

[Allie]

Yeah.

[John Cooper]

Six in one hand, you know?

[Allie]

Yeah. Well, now you're back into the South. Okay. Speaking of Christmas and hot cocoa, you had a Christmas song come out, and I was pumped about it. I thought it was so cool. For those who haven't heard it yet, let's just play a clip of it. It's. Okay. I loved it. The response was universally positive, right, John?

[John Cooper]

Yeah, yeah, for the most part, it was actually.

[Allie]

It really was.

[John Cooper]

But I'm glad you liked it. Thank you.

[Allie]

No, I did. But there was a small fraction of people who wanted to sew some controversy.

[John Cooper]

Yeah, controversy. Because it feels so empty. Yeah, that's Eminem. Anyway. Yeah, it's really funny. Cause so the song came out and. Well, first of all, it's funny because about a year and a half ago, our fans started saying, when are you gonna do a Christmas song? And I remember saying on an interview one time, somebody had asked me, are you ever gonna do a Christmas song? And I was like, you've heard me sing, right? You don't want me singing a Christmas song. It wouldn't sound good. And all of a sudden, here we are doing this Christmas song, and our fans loved it. And I remember getting a text from a friend. He's actually a public figure. I won't say who. And he was like. He sent me a screenshot, and it was him defending Skillet. And I thought, is this a joke? I don't really know what he's talking about. And I hit it back and said, what do you mean? And he sent me this thing about it, saying that the song was demonic. But I promise you, no lie, like an ex post.

[Allie]

Someone saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Ex.

[John Cooper]

That's right.

[Allie]

Yeah.

[John Cooper]

But I honestly thought it was a joke. So I was like, oh, that's really funny. And he's like, they're serious. And I was like, no, they're not. Oh, my God. So I ended up texting because he said, yeah, I saw Lisa Childers defending it and defending you. And I thought, that can't be true. So I texted Alisa. I'm like, is this really true? And she's like, yeah, short version. People are dumb.

[Allie]

Yeah. Yep.

[John Cooper]

So that's kind of how the whole thing started. Started.

[Allie]

It's a good summary. It's a good summary.

[John Cooper]

That's a good summary for. For the 2000 and twenties.

[Allie]

Yes. Just in general. I know we were out. Definitely. I was out there on X defending you too. I was like, love seeing the gospel proclaimed throughout all genres. But yeah, there was, you know, and Twitter is not representative of everyone. Not even close. But you have like this loud group of people who believe that, you know, all music needs to only sound one way and who, I don't really know. The demonic argument, I guess, just because it's loud and like, I don't know. I don't know what it is. So how did you respond to all that?

[John Cooper]

Yeah, you know, I think for me, I had quite a bit of insight into it. So information that you probably don't know. And so I'm assuming your listeners don't know. So I grew up in a very strict household, Southern Baptist. But my particular church was very, very rule based. And so for instance, I know you've had on your show, you guys have talked about, you know, the Bill Gothard stuff before. Yeah, I've heard some of that.

[Allie]

Ginger Duggar Volo.

[John Cooper]

Yeah, that's right. I've listened to some of those episodes. So I didn't grow up near as extreme as that. You know what I mean? But, you know, I was taken to Bill Gothard seminars, you know, rock and roll during that time. Some of the younger people listening to the show might not really know rock and roll was really was seen as maybe the worst thing the devil ever did on the planet ever. And the way that Bill Gothard and the people that follow this viewed Christian rock and roll as even worse. And so I grew up in that kind of family. When I first heard rock music, I was at my friend's house and I'm gonna show how old I am. But I was like 6 years old and my friend was like, we just got mtv. And I was like, what's mtv? What is that? He's like, music television. And I'm like, music television? I don't even know what that even means. My mom was a piano teacher and a voice teacher. My mom sang opera and things like that, so. And he turns on music television and there's this video from Michael Jackson, Beat it. And I thought, this is the awesomest thing I have ever heard.

[Allie]

Really? Just immediately you were like, this is amazing.

[John Cooper]

Oh, yeah. It was just like, I've never heard anything like it. And I came home and I was singing Beat It. And I mean, my mom gave me a holy butt whooping. A holy roller butt whooping, really, for singing the devil's music. That was like the start of. I mean, I was like 6 years old of like, this music is from the devil. It will take you to hell. It will make you want to live a life of glorifying the devil and all the things the devil loves. And so I didn't listen to rock music, and I was complaining about it. And fast forward sixth grade. Sixth grade is usually when people start listening to music on their own, you know, and you start wanting to dress a certain way or hang out with friends and you all listen to the same music. And all my friends were listening to metal. So, you know, this is the 80s. So it's Metallica and Bon Jovi and basically all this awesome music from the 80s. And I was complaining. I was like, there's no way my parents would ever let me bring Metallica home. And my best friend was like, you know, there's Christian rock music. And I was like, no. And I did not know that. And so they gave me a Petra tape. And so I brought Petra home saying, mom, guess what? There's Christian rock music. And my parents were so mad. My mom was like, that's even more demonic than Metallica.

[Allie]

Okay, so you kind of understand the perspective that some of the people today have. It was similar to what your mom had back in the day.

[John Cooper]

Yeah, that's why I was so. That's why I wasn't bothered about it. I was like, oh, I know these people. You know, like, I love these people. I grew up with these people. They really believed Christian music was even worse because it was wolves in sheep's clothing. They're acting like they're drawing people to Jesus, but they're playing beats that come from, you know, African pagan tribes and witches. And they see the drum beats as being something that would happen during a, you know, round of fire, where they're calling on all sorts of gods and goddesses and the gods, because it sounds chaotic to them. The guitars are loud. God is not a God of disorder. He's a God of order. And so there's like, all these trails that they would take. I mean, I read all this stuff growing up. And so even as a young person.

[Allie]

God is a God of order, not of disorder. That's why I must not like jazz. That must be.

[John Cooper]

That is why you don't like jazz.

[Allie]

Actually, I'm like, I always think of that Angela line from the office where she's like, she doesn't like jazz. And she's like, just play the right notes. That's how I feel about jazz. So there you go. Now I have a theological basis for it.

[John Cooper]

Yeah. I sometimes make a joke in the studio if we're recording a song and I play the wrong note and I'm like, oh, sorry, I thought we were doing jazz.

[Allie]

Yeah. Yes, thank you.

[John Cooper]

Yeah, yeah. Jazz can be a little much, you know.

[Allie]

Okay. So I didn't realize that they really felt like the beat itself was not from Christian culture or something.

[John Cooper]

Yes, Got it. Well, in fact, they would say it's from pagan witchcraft. They would say, this is what if you African tribes did back in. They would call on gods. It's sort of like what we might think of about BAAL worship. What would BAAL worship be like when they're calling on gods and entering into all the things we know they entered into during that thing? And so even as a young person, I mean, I wasn't that theologically astute or anything, but I was raised in a great Christian home. My mom was a Jesus fanatic. So I. Nothing bad I would ever say about my mom, she taught me about Jesus. But even then I knew, like, some of these things are not consistent. They're not making sense, you know? And they said, well, you can't understand the lyrics anyway. And, you know, my mom would be teaching. She was a vocal teacher, so they used to be teaching opera.

[Allie]

Yeah.

[John Cooper]

And I'm like, I can't understand. You're not even singing English. It's like Italian or whatever. It's like, I can't understand what you're saying either. So it was just like all these inconsistent things. So they really do believe that it is inherently evil. And then particularly doing it with a Christmas song, you're desecrating something that is holy and making it into. I even heard some. I even heard some people say that we were deconstructing Christian music, things like that. And so anyway, all that to say it's a long story, but it's kind of interesting coming from that world.

[Allie]

That's interesting.

[John Cooper]

I kind of know where they're coming from. And for the most part, I know that they're. They. They care for me and they care for people. They think they're saving people from Satan. And so all I can do is kind of like, laugh it off, really. You Know.

[Allie]

Yeah. Quick pause. Tell you about our first sponsor for the day. It's Adele Natural Cosmetics. Y'. All. I love Adele so much. This is like the best cosmetic company, skincare company. I use their products on a daily basis. I love their essential cleanser. Works so well for my skin. Makes my skin moisturized, bright but also clean without any harsh foaming soaps or chemicals or fake fragrances, endocrine disruptors, anything like that. It is all 100% natural, completely holistic and it really works. When I'm not in the studio, I am wearing my Adele makeup and I just love it so much. Go to Adele natural cosmetics.com support this pro life awesome family owned Christian company. They are totally unapologetic about all of their values. Love them so much. Go to adelenaturalcosmetics.com code ally for 25 off your first purchase. Okay, but I kind of want to hear a little bit more about your story and how you got into doing what you do. I mean I know some of it but a lot of people might not. And then also so curious just about your parents reaction when you started Skillet and all of that. So okay, so you are in sixth grade. You're all of your friends were listening to this stuff that you weren't allowed to listen to. There's Christian rock music, not allowed to listen to that. But eventually you did start listening to non opera music. So what did that look like?

[John Cooper]

And you know, I know what's really funny is my son listens to nothing but opera.

[Allie]

That is so funny.

[John Cooper]

That's real life stuff. That is real life rebellion of a child against his parents. We've taught him the way you should go and he just listens to opera all the time.

[Allie]

That's so great.

[John Cooper]

Yeah, I don't really know what the deal is with that one. But anyway, I got so excited about that story I forgot what you asked me. Oh, how did I get, how did I get into it?

[Allie]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Cooper]

I think what was interesting for me. So again, it's not by any means, I was like Mr. Theology or anything like that. But I did recognize the inconsistency even as a young person because we were told, I mean the church I went to was a bible believing. So we were always taught this, that it's about grace, it's not about rules. And we were always taught things like the Pharisees, they added all these rules in order to earn God's favor and how that wasn't right. And I would always be like, yeah, but you're, I think you're doing that with, with music, you know, like, aren't you doing. They say the church I was at was fixated, I mean, obsessed about the way you dress. So like black was bad. Black was the devil's color. So my mom didn't want me wearing black. And it was like they were fixated on these really weird rules. Arbitrary, arbitrary rules. And even as a young person I was like, I just don't see this in the Bible. And on one hand you're telling me that we don't wanna be like the Pharisees, it's all about grace. But the other thing is every day they're fixated on this stuff. And it just, it gave me a really, really bad taste. And again, that is why I can relate to people when they actually do go through deconstruction and they have these stories of church hurt and church abuse. I'm like, I actually, I'm against deconstruction, but I know what you mean. I honestly do know what you're saying. And I do think that we could do a better job in the evangelical world of showing the joy we have in Christ. Like instead of just seeming angry all the time. We're not angry, we're really joyful. We love God, so let's fight what we need to fight and let's calm down about some of the other things. Even as a young person, I really did not understand this weird music thing. I didn't understand the idea that the devil had created a style of music because I remember saying to my mom once, but you taught me that the devil doesn't create anything, he distorts things. So how can it be that he created an evil drumbeat? Even as a seventh grader I was like, this doesn't, this isn't adding up, you know. But all that to say, I did want to go away from some of that legalism and I did go away from that, but I never wanted to go away from Christianity. I never wanted to go away from the Bible or Jesus. I was into that. And so my story is actually kind of funny. I guess what I'm saying is a, I can relate to some of the deconstruction people. I understand what they're going through and if anybody is listening, that's like that. I just want to encourage them. I feel you, I hear you. Don't deconstruct from the Bible. Don't leave Jesus over this stuff. Just get rid of some of the things that people probably good heartedly added onto the faith that they really shouldn't. Have get rid of that stuff, but don't deconstruct from Christ, you know? That is why I was drawn, funny enough to the Charismatic Church. The Charismatic Church didn't have that stuff. They were like, we don't care what you look like. It's all about, are you living in faith, brother? You know what I mean? Are you living the word of God? Are you listening to God? You know, I was drawn to that because they loved the music. They loved Christian music. They like, if God put a vision in your heart, you gotta go after it. And so they were really cheerful about that. So I do think in some instances, there was some good things that happened from that. For me, though, my story, if I can make it even longer, Ally, is.

[Allie]

Basically that I'm raptured. Not that kind of rapture, but I'm just really focused.

[John Cooper]

Allie's raptured and I'm not. I don't know what that means.

[Allie]

Bad sign. Bad sign.

[John Cooper]

What does that mean for me? I saw the film.

[Allie]

Yeah. Well, it means I got my eschatology wrong, but I apparently got the other things right. I don't know what it says about you, John. I don't know, but I'm very. No, I love hearing your story. It's so interesting.

[John Cooper]

It's kind of funny, you know, so. To make it even longer. But this is kind of the sad part of my story. You know, my mom got cancer when I was 12. She fought cancer for three years, on and off for eight or nine months. Cause it's a really long. I don't quite remember, but, you know, those processes of taking the chemo and going through the surgeries is a really long time. And you don't know if people are gonna make it. Of course, cancer treatments come a long way, thank God, in the last 30 years. But anyway, it came back again. She got really sick. She died when I was 15. So during that time, we were. We were fighting a lot about music and things like that and just everything. Haircuts, the way I dress. I remember just being teenage stuff. Teenage stuff. I remember one time getting grounded because I didn't shave my mustache. It wasn't a mustache. I had a few random hairs and I kept forgetting to do it. And my parents were like, you're ruining your Christian witness. You look like a drug dealer. And people are gonna think that you serve Satan. It was always heavy like that. You. And so when my mom died, I was 15. I was just like, I think a lot of these things aren't real. Jesus is real. The Bible is real. I think a lot of this stuff needs to go. And I just was like, I can listen to whatever I wanna listen to, but the truth is, I still didn't listen to secular metal. I listened to only Christian music. And Christian music was there for me, really changed me, helped me, kept me grounded in my faith in incredible ways. Petra and even things like Amy Grant, which. I was more into metal. But if you were into Christian music, you had to know who Amy Grant was and Michael W. Smith and things like that. Stryper. But all these great metal bands really helped me because they really sang. Most of them sang scripture most of the time. And I just remember thinking, if I could play music like this. Music has helped me so much. And of course, people gotta remember. This is before the Internet. This is before text messaging. There's no cell phones. You're in your room alone at night. You know what I mean? Speaking of, did you see the film? Do you remember the film? I can only imagine.

[Allie]

Yeah, I remember it.

[John Cooper]

Yeah. Like in that film, I remember. I remember getting choked up at the beginning because the character that plays Bart. So the who the film is about when he's a kid, he goes to camp and he meets who becomes his wife, and she gives him a cassette tape of Amy Grant. And it's called Never Alone. And I was like, I remember what that. I remember those nights. I mean, we had absolutely nothing. And you felt like no one knew what you were going. How can anybody know what you're going through? Your mom just died, and none of your friends have had a death in the family. And you feel so absolutely alone, and you don't know how to talk about it, and you don't want to talk about it, but you do want to talk about it. And if your friends ask you about it, you're like, I don't know if I'm up for this. But if they don't ask you about it, you're like, how come my friends aren't asking me?

[Allie]

Yeah, they forgot.

[John Cooper]

It's just a brutal time. And Christian music was really, really helpful for me. And I thought, if I could ever write a song for some other kid that's going through depression, suicidal thoughts, a death, getting bullied at school, I don't know what they're going through. I would love to do that. And so when I was 18, I remember I got very serious in my relationship with the Lord when I was 18. And I really believed it with all my heart. I believe God was calling me to play music. The last thing I'll say about it. It was hard because on my mom's deathbed, my mom had gotten very into, like, word of faith before she died.

[Allie]

Oh, really?

[John Cooper]

So we were Southern Baptist, but she had kind of was looking for that miracle. You know, she kind of went. Kenneth Copeland, ish. Went to some of those things. And so for the last three weeks that my mom was alive, I didn't get to say bye to her because she didn't want us to lose faith. She was gonna be healed. She was in the hospital, didn't want us to lose faith, seeing her like that. And if we came to say bye, that would be an admission of not having faith. You know what I mean? And so. And again, I'm not saying that to. I am never disparaging about my mom. She's the reason I'm walking with the Lord, you know, so that's not disparaging. It's just a. That's a sad piece of this story, you know, But I. I knew in my heart I was supposed to be playing music, but I had been told by people that loved me dearly that on my mom's deathbed, you know, she's pumped full of all sorts of, you know, morphine or whatever it is that they give to you when you're in that sort of agony. At the end, she was having visions and dreams and whatever, and part of those visions were that one of her sons. Me, I was going to lead people to hell through Christian music. I was going to play Christian music, and the devil was going to lead people to hell and things like that. So that was also kind of over me. You know, it was hanging over me, but I just knew God had called me to it. And I just was like, you know, this is. I'm 18. This is one of those things. Are you going to do what God's called you to do, or are you going to. I don't know. I don't know if I'm stretching to say this, but it kind of felt like a let the dead bury their own. The dead kind of a thing, you know, not that she was dead, but almost like I can't live with that over my life. I know God's called me to this, and I don't believe it was real. I just think they were really godly people that were wrong about something. Yeah, that's kind of heavy today, isn't it?

[Allie]

No, but it's actually. It's really interesting to hear how you kind of. How you started, because it's not an expected route to get there. It's actually the opposite route. It is of what a lot of people would say because, I don't know, maybe a lot of people would say, oh, yeah, I grew up around this stuff. This is what my parents loved. They were always playing Michael Jackson or Aerosmith or whatever it was. And that's not at all. You had to overcome probably a lot of internal turmoil to say, this is what I'm going to do. And not only did you. It's not that you became Michael W. Smith, you became Skillet.

[John Cooper]

Right.

[Allie]

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[John Cooper]

Right. Right. I think that was part of what was funny is I was like, I think this is the most pushback we've gotten for our sound in, like, 25 years. I was thinking, like, I thought everybody knew who we were by now. That group of people would know to stay away from us.

[Allie]

Yeah. If they didn't like it. Right.

[John Cooper]

But it is an interesting story. I think a piece of why the story is interesting is that a lot of people in my situation would just leave traditional Christianity. And so I think even this isn't what you're asking me. But even going Back to a few years ago when I began to be very outspoken against things like progressive Christianity, deconstruction, and some people will start calling me a fundamentalist. And I started laughing about it. You know, I think that they would have expected, because the music I played because of my tattoos or the way I look, they'd be like, we would have thought you would have understood. And I'm like, I do understand, but the word of God stands forever. The word of God does not change. He changes not. And if you walk away from that, you are in dire straits. You are going down a very, very dangerous path. And I love you too much to let you do that. So I think there's an interesting aspect of this of, of we never would have called it deconstruction, but letting some of those things go to pursue Christ. What does the Bible say about these things? You know? And so how we got started in college, I met a pastor of a reformed charismatic church. If you can put those things together, some people listening might be laughing right now. Very reformed, very post mill dominionist, but also sort of charismatic. And he was also a Christian concert promoter. So he had, in the 70s and 80s, promoted Petra and Degarmo and Key and all these early Christian bands. And I basically met him and when I went to college in Memphis, he said, hey. Basically he said, you know what I like about you? I said, what? And he goes, I can tell you have a passion for Jesus. And I said, I do have a passion for Jesus. He said, I feel like you're someone that in your heart you want to never, ever compromise the gospel. I said, that's exactly who I am. And he said, the problem is, is that you don't know how to live for Jesus. He said, you're a hypocrite. You just don't know it. And I said, tell me more. And he was right. I knew in my heart I was not actually living for Jesus, but I didn't know what that meant. So he took me under his wing and he became. You know, we went through. Do you remember the. The book Experiencing God? I think that was Blackabee, I think.

[Allie]

I don't know.

[John Cooper]

Experiencing God was one of those early great devotional series. I think he was a Baptist guy, actually, if I remember correctly. But we started going through that together and my mind was just blown because I began to understand systematic theology and scripture. He introduced me to people like Luther and Calvin and people like that. And then I realized that really I was passionate for Jesus, but I really was not living as a disciple. And so it was through that discipleship that he said, hey, you know, you can take these principles into your music and you can begin to use that for God. Don't waste your life doing it. And that's how we started. My wife's dad, so Corey's from Wisconsin, I'm from Memphis, and Corrie's dad was a pastor of a church up there that was sort of a sister church to the one I ended up at in college. And so one of my pastors kept saying, hey, I know this. I know this other girl that plays music like you do. It's funny. She's going to come down and visit us. I want to introduce you guys. He never thought we would end up married. He just thought, oh, I bet you guys would be friends because you both play music, Christian music. And so she came down and I thought she was really cool. And I said to him later, I said, hey, what do you think about, I don't know, me and Corey? And he's like, oh, she would never. She would never like you. He's like, she's deep. And she's. She's. She's educated, she's smart, she's intellectual.

[Allie]

And you're like, thanks.

[John Cooper]

Yeah. He's like, you're. You know, he was right. But I was like, I think that she. I think she might feel the same way. So it was a classic opposites attract. Cause she. She is educated and. And she's a brilliant person. Much deeper than I am. Much more educated. By that time of my life, I'd only read probably three or four books ever. You know, I couldn't read. I had a massive adhd, so I couldn't read and pay attention. And I was way more hyper than I am now, which is hard to believe for people that only know me now. But that's how we started. And that was in 96 and started playing around town. We made a record that came out in 96. Never thought it would last this long, but that's the Skillet Store.

[Allie]

And what year did y' all get married?

[John Cooper]

97.

[Allie]

Okay, so.

[John Cooper]

So next year is 30 years for skillet, 29 for me and Corey.

[Allie]

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[John Cooper]

We've done a lot with Papa Roach.

[Allie]

Okay.

[John Cooper]

If I remember the tweet correctly, that was back then.

[Allie]

Yeah. Okay. So a while ago. And that you came out and shared the gospel to all of these people because Paparidge, they're not Christian. And so a lot of the people there maybe had never heard the gospel. They weren't expecting to hear the gospel. But was that the kind of thing that you did a lot? Especially early on?

[John Cooper]

Yeah. And so let me say this. So when we toured with Papa Roach, to my knowledge, nobody in the band was saved.

[Allie]

Yeah.

[John Cooper]

Since then the singer Jacoby is born again and he talks about his faith. Yeah. And I would have been one along many people who would have had these gospel conversations. You know? You know, that is Billy Graham always said the average person is seven times hears the gospel seven times before they, the average Christian before they give their life to Christ. So we all do our little parts. But my point is, I only want to say that so people know Jacoby is his name. Good friend of mine. The band is good friends of ours, whether they're Christians or not. They were good friends of ours. But Jacoby did get born again. And also, by the way, sorry, this is. You can tell my ADD kicks in sometimes totally fine. There is a lot of rock stars, I call them rock stars, getting truly born again over the last year. It is something that, you know, in my 22 years in the secular metal industry, I've seen two or three people get saved up until a year ago. And I've got seven, eight, nine friends in the last 12 months who have gotten born again and have begun actually talking about their faith.

[Allie]

Are there people that have shared that publicly? Like, are you able to talk about who they are?

[John Cooper]

Clint from Seven Dust is someone. I mean, Seven Dust is a very iconic metal band. Very outspoken about his faith and several others as well. So it's been pretty awesome.

[Allie]

Yeah.

[John Cooper]

I don't want to be like, there's revival. I'm not saying it's revival, but it's a move of God happening. There's no question about that. And it's becoming a little bit more. People are open to hearing those stories in the rock and roll world, which is really exciting. But, yes, Skillet always tried to make it a point to share our faith openly. I sometimes tell people Skillet is the most overtly vocal crossover act of all time. I don't say it. Bragging on myself. I brag on Jesus all the time. I brag on the power of the Spirit to do incredible things. That all we have to do is just be faithful. And we take no credit for the working of the Holy Spirit as he's doing whatever it is that he's doing. The Father's will. It's absolutely amazing. And we just be faithful in our little task. But we made it a point. If we're gonna cross over, we are going to never be ashamed of the gospel. And that's what we try to do now. Doesn't mean every time we go and play a show that we're talking about the Roman road and we're laying out that you're a sinner. That's not what it's like. But some people don't quite understand. Do you mind if I preach just a little bit? Allie, please. Come on, girl. Let's go.

[Allie]

There you go. You can sing, too.

[John Cooper]

Yeah, that's kind of singing two things. I think that some people don't understand what it's like. Number one. I think they don't understand that at exactly what it's like to be in a situation where no one. In other words, they don't know what it's like to be at a rock and roll metal festival. You don't actually have to come out with a full gospel presentation to be light and salt. You really don't. In fact, it might in some cases, it sometimes could seem inappropriate. But the point is, is that sometimes it's more powerful. You being just a radical Jesus freak in your life goes an incredibly long way. And I think that the second thing that people don't realize is sometimes the power of the Holy Spirit, because God is always at work. It might be something that I'm sure you've had these conversations with somebody. Somebody said, allie, do you remember when you said that one thing? That's what changed me. And you're like, that doesn't make any sense. Because that thing I said wasn't even that good or deep.

[Allie]

I don't remember.

[John Cooper]

Yeah, I don't even remember that. You know what I mean? And you might be like, actually, I said some really good things to you one time and you never responded.

[Allie]

I don't remember.

[John Cooper]

But then this little thing is what did it. And I think that we cheapen the efficacy of the power of the spirit to do things. And so what I'm trying to say is sometimes what I have seen is things. I'm like, oh, I didn't even know. I didn't even know it was a big deal. Can I give you an example?

[Allie]

Yeah.

[John Cooper]

Years ago in 2010, when we first had our first radio hit, I remember packing for tour. I was packing and the TV was on. Like Letterman or somebody was on. I don't know. It was just packing. And a commercial for the NFL came on. And I was like, oh, I recognize this song. And I was like, huh? And it was like, oh, my gosh, it's my song. Right? So it was my own, but I literally. I didn't know it.

[Allie]

Yeah.

[John Cooper]

And I was like, oh, my gosh, it's my song Hero.

[Allie]

That's cool.

[John Cooper]

Yeah, it was really cool. About three years later, we received an email, and it was from a couple who both worked in the adult film industry.

[Allie]

Wow.

[John Cooper]

They made pornographies, and they were watching the NFL one night and they heard this song, Hero, and they were like, we really like this song. I wonder who it is. And this is in 2010. So you had to go onto chat boards, you know, it wasn't like it is now. You know, you can find out everything as easily. So they went on chat boards with somebody, said it's a band skillet. They went and they started listening to the song. They liked the song, they bought the album, liked the record. And one day they're like, I wonder what this song hero is about. So they googled an interview with me. I was just at a mainstream event. I wasn't quote unquote sharing the gospel. They just asked me on a secular radio interview, so who is your hero? I said, oh, actually my hero is Jesus Christ. He laid his life down for me when I didn't deserve it. I hated him, but he died for me anyhow. And he gave me a brand new heart. And the wife said, maybe I need to go to church. I don't know about this Jesus, maybe he could be my hero. She starts going to church, she gets born again. Her husband thinks she's a wackadoo, but is like, my wife is not working on the industry anymore and she's become a holy roller. He ends up getting saved. Obviously they quit the industry they were working in, they get baptized, they're in church for three years and God starts leading them in their hearts to start a ministry to people in the pornography industry. All because of a TV commercial and an interview, which I did not share the gospel. But I was honest to say Jesus is my hero. He died for me when I hated him. And he gave me a brand new life, a brand new heart, a brand new start, all as if I never sinned at all, that one little seed. So, yeah, we do preach the gospel, we do talk about the Lord, we do stand up for things. Sometimes I'll preach hardcore, sometimes I don't say much at all. Sometimes all I'll do. If we're playing at a metal festival, which we play lots of metal festivals, I'll just. All that I'll do is I'll just quote a scripture and that's it. The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. And it just depends on if we think the power of the Holy Spirit is powerful enough to in that moment, to awaken somebody.

[Allie]

Yeah, the word of God doesn't return void. It's going to accomplish exactly what God sends it out for.

[John Cooper]

Yes, that's right.

[Allie]

That's amazing. I love hearing stories like that. The ripple effect that seems so amazing to us. And like when you think about it, that you are aware of that, but how many more examples of that are you not aware of? That you won't know of until you get to the other side of glory and maybe something that you were indirectly a part of. And that is true in the life of every believer. Like, what a gift it is when we do hear someone's testimony. Like, we might get a message or like. Like. Like I might hear a guest that you had on in 2023. I happened to listen to it. It reminded me of this and all this stuff. And God is so good to show us that. But when it seems like he's doing one of those things, he's doing 10 million of those things.

[John Cooper]

Oh, that's right. All at the same time.

[Allie]

All at the same time.

[John Cooper]

Like, people listening don't know my mom. They'll never meet my mom. And she every day is teaching me scripture. She's teaching me. She's making me quote scripture. She makes me pray before we go to school. Everybody has a job to do, and you're not gonna be aware of the seeds you're throwing out. So everybody listening, you need to go and throw those seeds out. Be that gospel, Mom. Be that gospel, dad. At work, things like this, it's just as easy as somebody that's working that refuses to pad their numbers. Why aren't you padding your numbers? Other people are. Why aren't you doing so and so? You could be making more money if you were willing to X, Y, or Z. And the truth is, everybody's kind of doing it. I don't do that because X, Y, Z. That kind of life speaks so much about the power of the gospel.

[Allie]

Yep, do it. And there's so many excuses in every industry, but certainly when there's any level of. Of fame or any level of money on the table, the temptation is always really strong for people. We'll just compromise a little bit. Sure, you're a Christian, but this is how we do things. This is how you negotiate. This is how you get the deal. This is how. No, this is just how it's done. And I think we also have to be comfortable as Christians that, okay, we do the right thing, we follow Christ. That does not guarantee that it's going to work out well in a material or earthly way for us. It's not necessarily a movie where the good guy wins in the short term.

[John Cooper]

Right.

[Allie]

You know, and we just have to be comfortable to count the cost and say, I'm gonna do what God has called me to anyway, and he's gonna use this for eternal glory. But it might feel like we're losing.

[John Cooper]

Right. That is a great point. I wouldn't even mind mentioning this because one of the first times I was on with you years ago in 2020, I think, I can't remember.

[Allie]

Yeah, probably about your book.

[John Cooper]

About my book, that's right. I was so thrilled to be on your show and you had asked me about the prosperity gospel all the way back then. At the time, I didn't fully know what the prosperity gospel was, but I did have people that were involved in. I knew lots of people involved in word of faith. I've not been in any word of faith churches, but I do know a lot of people like that. But this is where I would say, now I would delineate on the prosperity gospel, where I think they get it wrong. Which is what you're saying, what God is guaranteeing you is that if you obey his commandments, you will be blessed. He's not guaranteeing you that blessing looks like riches. So as you just said, well, I could be doing these things in my business and we could make more money and everybody's really doing it. And so you're saying, I'm gonna do it God's way. But just that I'm doing it God's way doesn't mean that now I'm gonna be even richer than all those people. It doesn't work that way. But what it means is that by keeping God's laws, his covenant law. Covenant law keeping always leads to covenant blessing. Right? Or I believe it does anyway. And that is not prosperity gospel. This is something different you are going to be blessed with. But we give it to the sovereignty of God to say, hey, you choose what that blessing is going to look like. It might be blessing that I can go to bed at night in peace and that my kids can be raised in a home where they go. My dad and mom never compromised. They didn't care about money. They cared about pleasing God. Want to be a man, a God pleaser, Not a man pleaser. Tell me. Every parent, tell me, listening right now. Tell me, would you rather trade all the money in the world for that kind of testimony for your kids to see? Oh, my parents would not lie and cheat because the gospel is too sweet to them. Yes. You would give up that extra money in a heartbeat. And the extra money probably isn't even that much anyway. Like, sometimes you look back on it, you know, sometimes it's really dark. But you think like Judas, he's like, for 30 pieces, like just 30, I don't know, not even 60.

[Allie]

He probably didn't even live long enough to spend it.

[John Cooper]

He clearly didn't. He was on the ground like an idiot. But we all do that, you know, we all end up selling ourselves short for something so stupid. And at the end of the day, you're like, it wasn't even worth it compared to the greatness of the riches and glory of knowing Christ. It was so dumb. So I would just encourage people, man, never compromise those things. What the world has to offer, even if it's a ginormous amount out, it's worth nothing in the end. You count it all. Poo. Yep, that's what Paul says.

[Allie]

So true. Another quick pause to tell you about Carly Jean Los Angeles. You'll know how much I love cjla. I've been wearing CJLA clothes for a long time and I love that they're a capsule clothing company. So you can buy six really nice pieces, mix and match them throughout the year, throughout different seasons of your life. And this is the way to simplify your closet and really feel beautiful. It's high quality stuff. It's classic stuff that you can still wear in five years. That's why I love them so much. Plus Carly and her family, they're strong Christians, they love the Lord, they love this country, and I'm so thankful for their partnership over the years. And I love, love CJLA clothes, especially their jeans. So check them out. Go to Carly Jean, Los Angeles.com Use code ALI B for 20 off. That's Carly Jean, Los Angeles.com Code ALI B. Do you think that any of this conversation has to do with why we talked about deconstructing? There's a lot of people in the music industry, Christian music industry, who, you know, sinners like everyone else. But it seems like, you know, we look up to these people as disciplers in some way. They feel to us is like, okay, they've got their theology intact. They love the Lord so much. Wow. They're so passionate in how they sing. And when we hear hear them say, I don't believe that anymore, or actually while I was singing that, I was doing this opposite simple thing over there. It almost feels like a pastor betrayed, you know?

[John Cooper]

Yeah.

[Allie]

And I know Satan has it out for them probably for that reason. But like, what's your take as an insider on why that happens? Is it like the material wealth? Is it compromise, what's going on?

[John Cooper]

Wow. I agree with you. It does feel like a pastor, even if you don't know them. Right. So there are people. This has happened to me, I'm like, I never even knew that person. But I'm just. I can't believe this. I can't believe this. I don't want to go down a path that you're not asking, but I do think that we should at least consider why music is so powerful and we won't go down that. This is an entirely philosophical and theological conversation and some of it is opinion and philosophy. But from the beginning of the history of civilization, you see people groups using music for religious purposes.

[Allie]

Yeah.

[John Cooper]

It's actually only been the last few hundred years that we have this separation between music as art and religion. That's not a thing that happened in history. It was always to do with worship, either to pagan gods or to Yahweh or what have you for celebrations. Right. That's why we have psalms. You know, these were songs and things that people sang. They sang to memorize theology and things like that. Right. And to tell their stories, which is really beautiful if you think about it. We have a story in the Old Testament that probably most all Christian musicians favorite story, but it's powerful. It's King Saul tormented by demons, demons that God sent, by the way. I'll let you figure that one out. According to the Bible, tormented by demons. And he says to his right hand guy, he's like, I'm tormented by demons. I need to get a skillful musician to come and play. So these demons leave me and they call. He said, well, I've actually heard of. There's a young boy, teenager, probably young teenager named David. And he's a really good musician and he's handsome, he's a man's man, but he's also a really good musician. And a young David comes in. I get emotional to tell this story. It's amazing. David is such an incredible character and he's such a. He's a type of Christ as well. So there's a lot of meaningful things there. David comes in and plays and demons flee. And I don't even know, I'm not going to even go down the philosophy of what this means, what we know for sure is that music has an eternal aspect to it. Eternity past, music, angels singing, creatures we don't know eternity, future. You know, people say, well, you can't take it with you. We're taking music with us. Not literally, but it's always going to be. There's something so very powerful about music that is leading worship. And even if you deny Christ, you're leading worship. You're just leading false worship. And so music is powerful. We do not understand the power. And do you remember that movie School of Rock, the Funny Movie is like one great rock show can change the world. My brother always makes fun of me because I say that's actually true. But it just depends on if you believe. And I'm not getting into weird spiritual warfare here. I'm not into that stuff. But I do believe that that happened in the Bible. And so I do believe there is an angelic, demonic element that takes place with music. So therefore, when we see these people that proclaim these songs about Christ that God did use, that was real. Part of what happens when we see them leave the faith is we start going, was none of this real to begin with? Because God used that song to bring me to the faith or to make my faith more secure or what have you. It's really hard. It does feel like a pastor. I don't know exactly why it's happening. Some of it's practical Ali. Some of it is a. A lot of musicians are on the road all the time, so they don't go to church. And that's something that we have always been a part of a church. And we actually kind of made it to where. Where in a certain way, we saw it as we were being sent out, not as missionaries, but sort of like that. You know, we're sent out. We're still of you. We still talk, we're still involved. You still speak into my life as a shepherd, even though I'm not around a whole lot. But when we're home, we're in and we are in church and we are serving in church, or we're there, we're at our small group meetings or whatever it is that we're doing. A lot of Christian musicians aren't a part of a church. And I always tell them, like, you're not going to last long. I always encourage you got to get in a church. Or if they are in a church, they're in a church in a way that sometimes church leaders would never come to them and say, imagine you had Michael W. Smith in your church. You go to Michael W. Smith and you challenge him. Something on his life. You know, people might be intimidated to do that. Or they might be like, but he's Michael Smith. He's probably. He's probably super Christian. You know, how could I do that? Or, and I really hate to say this, but we're all adults here. Or maybe some of them are bringing so much money into the church. Pastor doesn't want to make them mad. They want that tithe check to keep coming in. I hate saying that, but I've seen too much and I can never go back again. It's like, oh, God. You know that scripture and this Ecclesiastes. It says, with knowledge comes suffering. That's kind of. This is one of those moments. But it's true. They need that money coming in maybe. I don't know.

[Allie]

Money is the root of all kinds of evil.

[John Cooper]

All kinds of evil. So there's lots of things there. Also, the entertainment industry is just. It just tends to be liberal, as everybody knows. And they tend to get out on the road and you tend to get no accountability. And all that kind of goes together also with a lot of musicians, let's just be honest. A lot of musicians are feelings based. We are very emotional creatures. We're very like, yeah, but I just feel this and I feel this. We feel too much. And I think that's probably what makes us good at our craft. Probably. We play with emotion. You know, if you go and see. I went to see Tommy Profit's. What's it called, his worship, his Christmas thing last week. I can't remember what you call it. Something of a King, Birth of a King. And you've got all these amazing. I mean, these singers are unreal. They're not like me. These people can sing, but you can tell these are emotional people. They wouldn't be able to sing the way they sing. It's just so powerful. And then if you get out, you're not in church, you have no accountability. You probably didn't understand doctrine that well to begin with. You start off probably with a good heart to tell people about Jesus, but that begins to be a recipe for. Yeah, for compromise, you know, all really good points. Yeah, that's my thing.

[Allie]

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[John Cooper]

Yeah. Okay. And I need to tell you this story because you're gonna love it. And it's about the song. All right, Go. Go to Spotify or Apple Music Skill it. Oh Come oh Come Emanuel, go to YouTube. The video is really powerful. If people haven't seen it, I found it quite powerful. My favorite response, you should go check it out. I know you got nothing else to do, Ali, so go check this out. You know those. You've seen things on YouTube. When people do reaction videos, it's the first time they watch. Watch it. There was one, I think that her handle was called Former Worship Pastor or Former Worship Leader. I've never seen her channel before. I don't know her personally. Never knew anything about her. I got this. I think that she's like a deconstructed worship leader and is no longer. She probably no longer say she's a Christian, but she's still spiritual and she talks about things. Somebody has sent me her reaction video. It's my favorite one I saw because she's watching the video and through the video, she's getting more and more emotional. And by the end, she starts crying and she says she's like, if anything could bring me back to the faith I used to have, it would be something like this. You can see it happening. The video's really powerful, amazing, because it speaks to something that all of us recognize. And I'm tying this into why people had a problem with the music. So I'm tying all of this in together. They have a problem with our version because it gets so heavy and I'm screaming. Really? It's like, ah, it's really loud. It's really heavy. It feels really angry and it's angsty. The reason we did that is because O Come, O Come, Emmanuel is an Advent song. It is a song singing about the longing for the Savior, the Messiah that is going to take away the sins of the world we are living in and not good times. And so, of course, this is singing about the first Advent. But there's also this already not yet aspect that happened in theology. But we're also longing, Come quickly, Lord Jesus, for the second Advent. The world isn't right. You meet these kids with cancer and you meet parents who are struggling. Like, my kids had 22 surgeries. I just met somebody like this about four weeks ago on the road. We did one of those wonderful make a wish things when, like, the kids, their wishes to see Skillet. And they bring them out and we meet them and they're like, yeah, I've had 23 surgeries. I'm like, but you're like nine. Like, how? And you meet these parents and the world is not as we want it to be. And we are longing for that day when every tear is wiped away, you know? So that is why this song gets really heavy like it does, because. Because this is a dichotomy we're singing about. The reason I'm telling you this is because most of the song is piano and keyboards, which is recorded on computers. The second half is guitars and drums, which have to be recorded in a studio. Day one of recording guitars in the studio. The heavy part, the part where we're crying out that the world isn't as it should be. I get a phone call that Charlie Kirk has just been shot while we're recording the very thing we are singing about. And I told Cora, I'm like, you're not going to believe this. This is exactly what we're talking about. This is things are not right. And it's one of those things that I don't think I'll ever be able to watch the video or hear the song without remembering. It was just powerful to me. That's what the song's about, and people can see it on YouTube. If you want to follow us on socials, it's Skillet music. Check it out. And maybe even for some of the people that wouldn't like this kind of music, maybe now that you know the story, you'll understand it when you hear.

[Allie]

Wow, I did not know that part.

[John Cooper]

I haven't really said it in hardly any interviews because it just hadn't come up. Most of them have been mainstream interviews. People might not really get it anyway. But for those of us who get it and have struggled with that, like, how can. Then you have the other. How can God let this happen? Where do we go from here? What does this mean? All that stuff all hits you at once, and we're just crying out like, jesus, just come quickly. How much more can we take? You know?

[Allie]

Absolutely. Amen. Well, thank you so much. And thank the Lord for how faithful he is and just how he's used you and uses us all in these. You know unseen and unsung moments of obedience that all believers are called to. That he empowers us to do in different ways. Sometimes it's with a microphone, sometimes it's not. But God truly is working all things together for the good of those who love him, using all of our different skills and passions. And I just love seeing this in you. And you and Corey are amazing. Corey was at Share the Arrows with her friends and she's just awesome and so sweet and y' all are just the best. So thank you so much for taking the time to come on.

[John Cooper]

Likewise. Thanks for having me.

[Allie]

Sa.