Ep 1290 | Why Is Israel Dividing the Right? Here's the Real Reason | Dr. Frank Turek

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Episode 1290 | Why Is Israel Dividing the Right? Here's the Real Reason | Dr. Frank Turek
Date: January 19, 2026

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Overview

This episode, recorded at AmFest, features three key conversations: first with Dr. Frank Turek (apologist and author), then with Lucas Miles (Senior Director at TPUSA Faith and pastor), and finally Blake Knapp (longtime producer for Charlie Kirk). Allie discusses the intersection of Christianity, conservatism, and current controversies concerning Israel, division on the political right, and the legacy of the late Charlie Kirk. The episode aims to provide clarity, encouragement, and practical wisdom for listeners navigating complicated topics within Christian and conservative spheres.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How to Respond to Accusations and Conspiracy Theories

• Frank Turek discusses recent accusations against TPUSA after Charlie Kirk's death, notably conspiracy theories pushed by Candace Owens and others (01:14–06:34).
  • Spiritual Warfare Context: Frank frames these accusations as spiritual warfare, drawing parallels to how both Jesus and New Testament writers characterized Satan as a "murderer, liar, slanderer, and accuser."

    "We had a murder, and then what did we have that followed it? Lies, accusations, and slander. This is spiritual warfare." — Frank Turek (02:20)

  • Responding Biblically: Frank cites the Apostle Paul’s willingness to confront false teachers and stresses the importance of defending truth and integrity.
  • Clarifying the Legal Process: He explains that investigators do not disclose case details, referencing his experience being questioned by the FBI because of accusations in online theories. This, he notes, is standard procedure to avoid compromising investigations or witnesses.

    "Anybody that's done a prosecution, particularly a murder trial, will tell you this is the way they do it." — Frank Turek (06:18)

  • Boundaries for Christian Discourse: Frank emphasizes that asking questions is reasonable, but not if the questions carry embedded, unfounded accusations.

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2. Division Over Israel on the Right

• The hosts and Frank Turek explore why Israel is such a divisive subject among conservatives and Christians (07:33–12:31).
  • Antisemitism is Not Conservative:

    "Jew hatred is not a conservative value. So why would we want to be conserving Jew hatred to begin with?" — Frank Turek (07:38)

  • Criticism vs. Hatred: Frank distinguishes between thoughtful criticism of Israeli policy and outright antisemitism, urging people to read foundational documents like the Hamas Charter.

    "The Hamas charter basically says that the only way forward is, is to kill Jews. Jihad is the only way." — Frank Turek (08:26)

  • Christian Support for Israel: Frank argues for “wounds of a friend” — supporting Israel when it’s right but critiquing when it’s wrong, noting that blessing does not mean rubber-stamping everything a nation or person does.
  • Search for Consensus: Allie asks whether consensus is possible; Frank says Christians must speak the truth and trust results to God. He highlights the disproportionate land mass held by surrounding Muslim countries as a crucial context for debates about Israeli policy.
  • Moral Clarity: Frank gives an analogy to cartel violence in Mexico as a way to frame clarity about good and evil in the Israel/Hamas conflict.

    "To say who are the good guys and bad guys in this... somehow when it comes to Israel, we lose our minds. I think it's demonic." — Frank Turek (11:45)

  • Hope for Christians: Concludes with a Gospel focus, tying the conversation back to grace and Christ’s work.

    "Christianity is the answer to the problem of evil. If we had never sinned, there'd be no reason for Jesus to come to earth. But because of our sin, he came to earth. And by trusting in him, we are forgiven. That's the real message of Christmas." — Frank Turek (12:03)

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3. Mentorship, Pastoral Courage & Cultural Engagement (Lucas Miles Interview)

• Marriage and Faith Foundations: Lucas celebrates 25 years of marriage, attributes it to the Gospel, humility, communication, and mentorship (13:54–15:56).

  "If you don't understand that you by yourself are completely depraved and you have no righteousness of your own... it allows you to have those conversations." — Lucas Miles (14:09)

• Mentorship Gaps: Addresses the current gap between older and younger Christians, encouraging initiative from those seeking mentorship.
• Pastoral Challenges:
  • Sunday always comes—pastors must feed their own souls, not just create content.
  • Hesitance to address “controversial” issues stems from fear of losing the congregation, finances, or political ramifications.
  • Many pastors, especially those educated in more progressive or “woke” institutions, aren’t equipped to handle topics like Marxism, CRT, or Islam.
• Three Types of Pastors (17:08):
  • True pastors
  • Traitorous pastors
  • Trembling pastors (know the truth but fear acting on it)
• Charlie Kirk’s Legacy of Courage:

  "Courage is easy. All you have to do is say yes... Here I am, Lord, send me." — Paraphrasing Charlie Kirk (17:44)

• Woke Pastors & Social Justice: Allie and Lucas recall how many fumbled after George Floyd, often echoing secular scripts instead of proclaiming biblical truth.
  • Many failed to repent for missteps, due to lack of education in liberation theology or fear of upsetting diverse congregations.

  "When you don't have a history and you want to be likable... your job is actually to proclaim the full counsel of the word of God. But you think your job is to gather people because that's what feels like success." — Lucas Miles (21:28)

• Living Out the Gospel Publicly: Plans to continue courageously engaging secular culture with a tour called "Make Heaven Crowded."

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4. The Impact and Legacy of Charlie Kirk (with Blake Knapp)

• Transition from Background to Spotlight: Blake, longtime producer, describes being thrust forward after Charlie’s death and the emotional weight of public life (27:33–28:29).
• Dealing with Conspiracy Theories:
  • He expresses frustration and pain at watching innocent colleagues be targeted by baseless accusations, linking the dynamic to “cruelty justified as moral righteousness.”

  "There are few things more intoxicating than to be told that you can do cruelty to someone and it's morally righteous… The left loves to do that… it's unfortunate to see that come out of this tragedy." — Blake (29:58)

  • Outlines the internal debate about whether or when to respond to online speculation (30:57), ultimately deciding to defend the falsely accused for their own morale and in the interest of truth.
• Restoring Focus to the Mission:
  • Decision making now rests with Erica Kirk, who, as Charlie’s widow, has authority over Turning Point’s course.
  • The battle going forward: focus on spiritual and national revival, not distractions.

  "Charlie's life's work was not responding to weird theories about him. Charlie's life's work was spiritual revival, American revival, young people revival, successful families, having children..." — Blake (32:34)

• Entering a New Era of Conservatism:
  • 2026 is seen as a turning point for the movement, coinciding with an election cycle and the “post-Trump” conservative coalition.
  • Recognizes that debates about Israel, while intense, are not as foundational as debates about the Constitution or American identity; optimism for eventual synthesis and unity (36:21–40:13).
• Historical Perspective & Individual Responsibility:
  • Offers historical parallels to fractured periods in America’s past that eventually gave way to triumph.

  "The founders were black pilled during what we now know was the beginning of a very global, glorious century for America." — Blake (40:34)

  • Calls listeners to "live like Charlie," cultivating discipline, virtue, and agency—"the sort of thing anyone can do."

  "Most of what made Charlie amazing was this: the ability that is perfectly accessible to an ordinary person." — Blake (42:12)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Frank Turek on Spiritual Warfare:

  "Jew hatred is not a conservative value… If you hate Jews? I don't consider yourself a conservative." (07:38)

• Frank Turek on Investigation Procedures:

  "Anybody that's done a prosecution, particularly a murder trial, will tell you this is the way they do it." (06:18)

• Lucas Miles on Pastoral Fear:

  "There’s true pastors, and there’s traitorous pastors, and then there’s this middle category of trembling pastors..." (17:12)

• Blake Knapp on Team Response to Accusations:

  "There are few things more intoxicating than to be told that you can do cruelty to someone and it's morally righteous to do so..." (29:58) "Charlie's life's work was not responding to weird theories about him. Charlie's life's work was spiritual revival, American revival, young people revival, successful families, having children..." (32:34)

• Blake Knapp on the Timelessness of Charlie Kirk:

  "Charlie does not fade away. He is always as bright as he was that day at Utah Valley... They shall not grow old." (34:33)

• Blake Knapp on Ordinary Heroism:

  "You can cultivate discipline, you can cultivate virtue, you can cultivate agency... Most of what made Charlie amazing was this: the ability that is perfectly accessible to an ordinary person." (42:12)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:14] – Frank Turek on spiritual warfare and Candace Owens’ accusations
• [03:22] – On the complexities of asking questions vs. making accusations
• [06:34] – Clarifying legal procedures and authorities in the Kirk case
• [07:33] – Why is Israel dividing the right?
• [08:26] – The Hamas charter and its implications
• [10:19] – Christian approach to Israel and support for Jewish people
• [13:54] – Lucas Miles on marriage, faith, and mentorship
• [17:08] – Types of pastors: true, traitorous, trembling
• [20:19] – Pastors' response to race and justice post-2020
• [22:30] – Charlie Kirk's passion and legacy
• [27:33] – Introduction of Blake Knapp
• [28:55] – On conspiracy theories and internal team decisions
• [32:34] – Returning mission focus after Charlie’s death
• [36:21] – AmFest as a pivot point in conservatism
• [40:34] – Historical lessons for American unity and renewal
• [41:58] – What every individual can do: live like Charlie

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a multifaceted, heartfelt look at the turbulence and opportunities currently facing the Christian conservative movement. With biblical and historical wisdom, the guests urge listeners to pursue truth, unity, and courageous public faith while keeping Charlie Kirk’s legacy alive by focusing on what truly matters—revival, relationships, and living out the Gospel in the public square.

Transcript

[A]

Frank Turek, Lucas Miles, and Blake Knapp are all here to talk about the future of Christianity and the conservative movement in America. We have these conversations at amfest. You guys are going to love them. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Dwell Bible. I love the Dwell Bible app. You can not only read the word of God, but listen to the word of God when you are going about your day. If you go to dwellbible.com ally, you get 25% off to 50% off, depending on your subscription. That's dwellbible.com ally.

[B]

Frank, how are you doing?

[C]

I'm doing. I'm just tired because we've been doing a lot of traveling. But I want to tell everybody who's here. Did everybody see Ali Beth on Jubilee? Wasn't she amazing?

[B]

That's very sweet.

[C]

No, I mean, it's true.

[B]

Well, I called the night before. I called Frank the night before, and I was like, I need some advice on how to handle this. And it was very helpful.

[A]

She.

[C]

Well, she knew what to say. Anyway, Charlie gave her advice to.

[B]

Before that he did.

[C]

So you represented Christ very well.

[B]

Well, thank you very much. What is it like to be here this weekend without Charlie?

[C]

As you know, it's. It's more bitter than sweet. But I'm still amazed at how TPUSA does this.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, three months after their leader has been murdered. And then, of course, the. The memorial service was amazing. These people don't miss a beat, no matter what happens. It's incredible because Charlie was so good at picking talent, which is why it's ludicrous that Candace Owens has suggested that beat that TBUSA has betrayed him. Ludicrous. And you've been very eloquent on this, by the way.

[B]

Okay, so how do we push back against. It's just been such a discussion, such a debate, especially on the right, like what our role is if we feel like someone is making a false accusation or is pushing a theory that is just not founded in reality. What is our role as Christians to speak up against that?

[C]

I think the same thing the Apostle Paul did. The Apostle Paul spoke up against false teachers and heresies. And it's interesting to me, Ali, that both Jesus and New Testament writers refer to Satan as a murderer, a liar, slanderer, and accuser. We had a murder, and then what did we have that followed it? Lies, accusations, and slander. This is. This is spiritual warfare.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And right now I'm. I don't know her motives, but Candace Owens is on the wrong side of this because she's slandering people, she's accusing people, she's lying. She said, oh, if Erica asked me to stop, I'll stop. She had stopped. She's still doing it. So I think what we need to do is as we're doing, and I don't know if you saw Ben Shapiro here the other night, but he was very clear to call out that this is wrong. And he's not even a Christian. He's just saying we have to deal in truth here. And when we're accusing people of murder, you better have some really good evidence if you're going to do that. And she doesn't.

[B]

Yeah. So I guess that's your answer to those who say, well, she's the only one asking questions. This is how investigations go. We have to pursue every lead, make sure every stone is turned over. What do you say to people who say that?

[C]

I will say you can ask questions, but not the complex question. The complex question is something like you ask a man, when did you stop beating your wife? There's an assumption behind the question, oh, he's a wife beater. Right. This is appears to be what Candace is often doing. Why did Mikey turn away immediately and get on his phone? Oh, he must be up to something bad. No, he was doing exactly what Charlie told him to do. And you have had some very eloquent podcasts on this. You've talked about the right way to deal with this, and I think people ought to look into that. And I also want to mention, for people that don't know, I have a friend, J. Warner Wallace, a cold case homicide detective. I had him on my podcast twice to talk about this. He points out that the prosecution is not going to reveal the evidence that they have or even what they're doing, because if they do, they're going jeopardize the case. Why are they going to jeopardize the case? If they say, for example, they're looking into a second shooter, they don't know if somebody comes forward and says, oh, I saw the second shooter, whether that guy really saw the second shooter or he is just trying to make a name for himself. Right. Or if they say, we have Witness X, they don't want to tell you they have Witness X because what is the media going to do and the defense going to do? They're going to go after Witness X. In fact, I think this happened in the O.J. simpson trial. If I'm not mistaken, there was a woman who saw O.J. leaving the scene, and the prosecution made it known that she was a witness. She wound up selling her story to a media outlet. And then she was invalid as a witness because she had been bought off, they say. So the prosecution is not going to tell you what they're doing. I know they're checking into conspiracy theories. Why? Because I was the subject of one of them. The guy in the white hat, the stupid white hat. The theory you heard about. I was signaling the shooter. They called me on that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The FBI said, were you signaling the shooter? I said, yeah, I was telling him to steal second base. Like, are you crazy? It makes no sense.

[D]

You don't.

[C]

You don't need to signal anyone. They guy knows where, who Charlie Kirk is. He's the guy under the tent with the microphone. It's ridiculous. But people.

[B]

But it does go to show that. Because a lot of people said, why is it the FBI doing this? Why aren't they asking this person? I don't think that we are privy to all of the things that the authorities are doing. Not saying that we should blindly trust any. Any government institution or any institution at all. But what you're saying is you did get called, even though it's a conspiracy theory, they did call you.

[C]

Yes. And by the way, the FBI is not the lead. The Utah police are. Now, I would be more skeptical if this. If the Biden DOJ was in charge and we were in, say, California and we had a liberal da, I would be even more skeptical. But we're in red Utah. There's a Republican there and of course, Dan Bongino, who's now left. But the Cash Patel, they're all friends of Charlie, so I don't think they're going to fudge anything. And all this is going to come out at trial anyway. So we have to wait for the trial. Not that we can't ask questions, but the questions are not going to be answered by the prosecution now because they'll taint the jury. They'll jeopardize their case. They have to be very methodical and hold their cards close to the vest. And anybody that's done a prosecution, particularly a murder trial, will tell you this is the way they do it.

[A]

Foreign. Okay, if you are watching this, I'm recording these ads remotely from my mom's office. And in here, if you could see, she's got all of these pictures, VHS tapes, all of these CDs, different memories of growing up in all of these different formats. And what she really needs is legacy box. Because with legacy box, they send you a box and you fill it with all of the pictures, all of the, you know, home videos, different things that you want to be digitized. And they make it digital so you can just plug it into your computer and you have all of these files forever. They make it really easy to pass down these memories that right now are just sitting in boxes digitally. So you need to do this. They have an amazing deal going on for my listeners. If you go to legacybox.com Alli you get 55% off. That's an amazing deal. Legacybox.com Alli.

[B]

Are you surprised at how divided we have become over Israel?

[C]

It is a little odd, but let me just say that Jew hatred is not a conservative value. So why would we want to be conserving Jew hatred to begin with? If you hate Jews? I don't consider yourself a conservative. I wouldn't consider yourself a conservative because you're not conserving what is good. Right. And true. So I don't know why other than this is more spiritual warfare. We're getting people in saying, oh, I voted for Trump, but I hate Jews or I hate Israel.

[B]

So what do you say to the people who say, well, I don't hate Jews, I don't hate Israel. I just think that we're taking too much money from aipac and I just want to criticize Israel. It's not Jew hatred.

[C]

That's fine, you can criticize Israel. But I always ask people who say that, have you read the Hamas charter? And they always say no. Except I had one guy today that.

[B]

Proved me wrong, said, yes, tell us what it is.

[C]

The Hamas charter basically says that the only way forward is, is to kill Jews. Jihad is the only way. And they say in there that all these conferences to have a two state solution are a waste of time because they don't want a two state solution. They want a one state solution. From the river to the sea means all the Jews are dead. We get the land.

[E]

Right.

[C]

And the two state solution really was set up by Winston Churchill way back after World War I. It's the country of Jordan, but Jordan does not want the Palestinians because many of them are jihadistic. Is Egypt doesn't want them either. They're jihadists. So if their own people don't want them, I have a question. Why would Israel want them? Also, this is not many people really think about this very often, but people will always say, well, we can't trust, we can't bless Israel because they're apostate. You hear this all the time, right? Well, blessed doesn't mean you agree with people on everything. Blessed means you tell them where they're wrong. As the proverb says, watch the kisses of an enemy. But the wounds of a friend are good. We don't rubber stamp everything Israel does. And newsflash, the entire Old Testament, Israel was apostate. Every king was a bad king. There was only a couple on the southern kingdom that were good. They're all apostate. God will deal with them. We're supposed to look out for the Jews and Israel, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with them on everything.

[B]

And of course, we want all people to be saved through Christ.

[C]

Of course.

[B]

And so we share the gospel. Yes, everyone. Okay. This is the dividing issue though, on the right and even among some Christians. So going forward, what does it look like? Do we find consensus on the issue? Are we trying to change people's minds? Do we kind of push it to the side as non fundamental? What do you think it looks like?

[C]

You mean Israel?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

I think we just speak the truth and live the results to God. We're not going to bow down and say that Israel isn't a friend of the us. It generally is a friend of the us and think about this. Israel has a landmass that is about 700. Let me put it another way. The Muslim countries around Israel, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt have a landmass 700 times the size of Israel. And Israel is supposed to give up land, Right? Hello. Why? I don't understand. It has nothing to do with fairness.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So Hamas wants all Jews dead. And how can you side with them? You can't. Doesn't mean everything Israel does is correct. We have to give them wounds of a friend when they do wrong. But to say who are the good guys and bad guys in this? I mean, can you imagine, Ali, if a cartel in Mexico and Charlie and I were talking about this the day before he was murdered. If a cartel in Mexico had in their charter somewhere that they wanted to kill all Americans, they came across the border, they proportionally killed 30,000Americans, they took another 30,000 and dragged them across the border. Would any American have any mystery about who the good guys and bad guys were? What would we do? We would take out that cartel, we would rescue the hostages, and then we'd have a parade how good we were to kill the evil bad guys. And yet somehow when it comes to Israel, we lose our minds. I think it's demonic.

[B]

Yeah. Wow. It's so interesting and very disturbing, the division that it's caused and very surprising to me. But you've given a lot of clarity to it. Can you just leave us with a message of hope? What's the most hopeful thing you can think of before Christmas?

[C]

That we're saved by grace, not by works. That Jesus came into the world to take our punishment upon himself. And by trusting in him, we're not only forgiven, we're given his righteousness. And Christianity is the answer to the problem of evil. If we had never sinned, there'd be no reason for Jesus to come to earth. But because of our sin, he came to earth. And by trusting in him, we are forgiven. That's the real message of Christmas.

[B]

Amen.

[C]

Amen to that.

[B]

Thank you so much, Frank. I appreciate it.

[C]

Thank you. Watch Relatable with the great Ali Beth Stuckey, ladies and gentlemen.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

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[B]

Really good.

[A]

I love relying on good ranchers because I know at least one part of my meal is accounted for. It's always going to be healthy. It's always going to support American farms and ranches and it's always going to be high protein. I get all of my meat from Good ranchers that's better than organic chicken strips, breasts, even seed oil free chicken nuggets, which my kids love. I love their beef, their different cuts of steak. They've got all kinds of seafood and it's all from an American farmer ranch. It's also a Christian American family owned company.

[B]

This is so much better than going.

[A]

To the grocery store and trying to.

[B]

Figure out if the meat that you're.

[A]

Getting is good and you don't even know where it's from. So go to good ranchers.com ally. You'll get $25 off your first order. That's good ranchers.com ally.

[B]

Lucas, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

[D]

Hey, thanks for having me on here. It's great to be with you.

[B]

Okay, I'm going to put you on the spot.

[D]

Let's do it.

[B]

You just told me off camera that you and your wife are about to celebrate 25 years of marriage. Does he look like he could be married for 25 years? I know. I didn't think so either. Okay, what is your, what's your top advice that you give couples?

[D]

Jeez. You know what? I think that you really have to have a foundation in just what I would say the gospel. If you don't understand that you by yourself are completely depraved and you have no righteousness of your own. When you get that and you talk about that, it allows you to have conversations. Say, this is how I'm feeling. It might not be the truth, but it's how I'm feeling. Can you help me sort through this rather than just making accusations and these sort of things. So we've really focused on communication, obviously, putting the Lord first. We've had some great mentors along the way too, that made a big difference in our lives.

[B]

Yeah, I think mentorship is a big one.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's something that I think is lost among a lot of young Christians today. Young Christians are too scared to ask. Older Christians are maybe too scared to ask and say, hey, I want to give you advice. So there, there does seem to be a gap going on in the church.

[D]

I think that, you know, with mentors, I always tell people that there's something that you have to seek out. You, if you want mentor you don't wait for the mentor to come to you and say, hey, I'd like to mentor you. You have to be willing to. And most people, you know, like in our space, if somebody comes to us and they're genuine and they're normal, you know, and, and that's, and they say, hey, I'm working on this, I'd love to buy you a cup of coffee and maybe pick your brain for a little bit. Like you're honored by that. Like, if you can make time for that, like, you would totally say yes to it. And I think that when you're in proximity to people, you're not trying to force it. You're not just interrupting people at dinner to see if they're going to mentor you, but you know, you're willing to build real relationship with them and take the time. Like it's, it's an honor to do that. And so I always encourage young people to like, look for that. I always try to have people I'm mentoring as well as people that are speaking into my life. And the cool thing about my job right now is I get to hang out with some of the biggest pastors around the nation that have, you know, just these wisdom filled guys with all sorts of, you know, experience in ministry that can, that, you know, as much as we're working with them in TPSA faith, they're also pouring into me. And it's, it's a nice perk yeah.

[B]

What's the hardest part of being a pastor?

[D]

Hardest part of being a pastor? I think that the, you know, Sunday comes every week. You know, it's. It's. It's always. There's always, you know, another, you know, seven days away. And so I think that keeping your heart in a place to where you feel that you are in tune with the Lord, that you can give regular good, you know, just content and. And, you know, sermons to your congregation, and then at times, you're just getting pulled in a million directions. And so it's that much more important that you're keeping yourself like, you're making time for your own spirituality, because it's easy for, like, you're. You're reading the Word to be. Just write a sermon rather than just like, lord, I need. I. You and I need some time together right now. And I think that that's one of the bigger challenges when you do this stuff for a living.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about the challenge that pastors seem to have. Sometimes in speaking into a cultural moment, they might be scared of dividing their congregation, or they're like, am I just being controversial for the sake of being controversial? And they might have a hard time figuring out what is political that I don't need to talk about, and what is actually biblical. How should a pastor be navigating that?

[D]

Yeah, I think that, you know, in my work as a senior director at TPUSA Faith, and I had the honor of working under Charlie Kirk for the past 18 months, and it was an incredible experience. Every day with Charlie felt historic and even more so now. We talked a lot about the three types of pastors. There's true pastors, and there's traitorous pastors, and then there's this middle category of trembling pastors. I think a lot of pastors are in that space where they're ideologically maybe aligned with biblical truth. They want to do the right thing. But there's all the other reasons. You know, I'm afraid of losing my congregation. I'm afraid of, you know, financial loss. I don't know if I feel as versed on these topics to be able to talk. I mean, and let's face it, like, Marxism, CRT dei, like Islam, like, these are robust topics that take a lot of time. Like, you and I have done a lot of work to, like, read these things and know these things, and the average pastor hasn't done that. They're not learning that stuff at Bible colleges, many of which are woke, and so they're set up for they're set up for failure really from the beginning. And I think that, you know, I remember one of the things that Charlie said to me is that courage is easy. All you have to do is say yes. You know, you don't have to have a degree on the wall. You don't have to have a bunch of money and you don't have to have good looks. You just have to be willing to say like, here I am, Lord, send me, and then walk in it. And. And I think we need more pastors to do that. They're kind of like Gideon hiding in the wine press, hoping the battle is going to go on without them and they don't need to get in the fight. And I think what we're trying to do at TPSA Faith is be that voice coming alongside of them and saying, rise up, you mighty valiant warrior. It's time to get in the fight here.

[A]

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[B]

You know, one subject that you've talked about a lot that I find is really hard for pastors who've got it on abortion, they've got it on marriage and gender. They're strong on those issues. It's the racial, social justice stuff, like totally fumbled the ball during 2020, which I know it was difficult. I want to have grace for that, but sounded so, so much like BLM or the world when it came to race and justice, even though they have it right on everything else. Why is that?

[D]

You know, I have said a lot of times that I don't. I don't have shame for a pastor that at the start, after George Floyd in the middle of COVID everything else is going on. If they put a black square on Instagram for, you know, six months, and assuming that after some point in time, they realize, like, oh, wait a minute, I got bamboo boozled, like, this is actually supporting a Marxist anti family, anti God organization, and they went back and repented. But I'm not seeing one of these guys go back and repent of that and actually acknowledge this. Not publicly. Right. And so, you know, that's concerning to me. And again, I think there's an education issue. A lot of people, they don't know the history of liberation theology. They don't know that it's a hybrid between Marxism and, you know, in Christianity. They, you know, they can't. They don't know about James Cone. They don't know about, you know, this idea of kind of, you know, crucifying the white Jesus, you know, type of language that you see. And so when you don't have a history and you want to be likable, I mean, being a pastor, oftentimes there's the temptation to feel like a politician. Your job is to gather people is what you think your job is. It's not really your job. Your job is actually to proclaim the full counsel of the word of God. But you think your job is to gather people because that's what feels like success. And so what happens is you want to please people. And especially if you're in a community with a lot of diversity, you're afraid of saying certain things, especially if you're a white guy that looks like me. You've got like, I can't say certain things from the stage or talk about certain issues. But when you actually learn about these things, you realize this is not. We're not talking about racism, we're talking actually about Marxism. And that there's been a mass deception that has happened, and it's worked its way into a lot of congregations, white, black, and all in between. And when you start actually being able to kind of dissect this and pull it apart, I think that the enemy gets exposed and you're able to deal with that. But it's that when you don't know it and you don't. You're not able to kind of walk, you know, or, you know, navigate kind of that language. And it's easy just to be like, I'm. Can I say black? You know, you know, can I say these? And you just kind of stumble through this and it gets really weird real fast.

[B]

Yeah, it really does. Charlie loved talking about woke pastors. Every time he would interview me on his show, he would be like, why won't these pastors say anything? And I'm sure y' all had so many conversations.

[D]

I talked him down from putting billboards over churches. A couple times he's like, we should get a billboard and put it. And I'm like, maybe not on that highway right there, you know, maybe not.

[B]

I like the passion behind it.

[D]

He was, he and, and he had a hard time because he was willing to go out there. Obviously we've seen that, the full expression of that Charlie was willing to put himself in harm's way. The start of this year, we did like a four hour dinner to kick the year off and it was just me, him and Mikey and we sat at restaurant outside in Phoenix and it was, it was one of my most memorable moments with him. It was one of those days where he just, he had all the time in the world to work through every issue. And you know, one of the things he said to me is he said, lucas, he goes this year he's like, I want our theme word for faith to be grit. He's like, if we're not close enough to people when we're sharing the gospel with them, where we're going out there for people to punch us, we're probably not close enough. And you know, and obviously, you know, he lived that and then some. And we really took that to heart. We've been doing a lot more content, you know, out there on the street, man, on the street. We've been walking up and down the strip in Vegas talking to people about faith. We're going out to, you know, places where people are and asking the tough questions and really to having to have those dialogues and the ask me anything prove me wrong style events. And we're gonna be doing a lot more of those in this new year. Look, the worst they can do is they can kill us. And that's not so bad after all when you're in Christ. And so we're gonna keep this going. And we don't want Charlie's, you know, life or his death to be in vain.

[B]

Yeah, he talked a lot about making heaven crowded. And I Think you just really saw an acceleration of that desire. In the last few months of his life, you worked with him closely. So, you know, but even just me watching him, he talked more and more about theology and the gospel and evangelism. It was just so evident that it was a passion, the passion of his heart.

[D]

Well, first off, Charlie was a huge fan of yours. He liked having you at virtually every event that we did. And he was always just a. He loved, I think, the passion, the grit, the tenacity that you have willing to kind of go after it in these things. And, you know, he was. He was a champ. He just thought you were champion. He was a champion of yours. You know, Charlie, I think that over the last I met him in 2020, there was certainly an evolution where faith became more and more important in his life. And, you know, certainly over the last few years, it is. It was evident. It was the foundational layer to everything that he did. And this idea of making heaven crowded, recognizing that, you know, it's what it's all about. My. My last communication with him was about two days before he died, and he was coming back from Japan, and I had been giving him some intel on some of the churches and theology that was happening in Japan, and for a talk that he was doing over there. And he shot me a message back and he said, lucas, you'll never believe it. I was able to share the gospel with this tremendous group and massive group of Japanese leaders, I think is the way he worded it. And the last thing I said to him was, I was so proud of him. And, you know, it was obviously, I wish I could talk to him right now. I wish he was still here with us. But we. We ended on such a great note. And the last thing that we talked about was, was really making heaven crowded by sharing the gospel with people, you know, overseas. And so we want to keep that going here in the US we're launching a new tour. Erica's already announced it, called Make Heaven Crowded. We're going about 30 cities across the country, hopefully to a city near all of you that are out here. We're kicking off the first one at Greg Laurie's church in California on January 21st. And we've got a high, high probability that Erica's going to be there with us. Myself, big worship band, Pastor Greg Laurie, a lot of other speakers be showing up at these. They're one night only, and then we go on. But we're doing one in. In at Greg Lor's. Then we're jumping down to awaken church there in San Diego as well. So. And more to come as these announcements follow.

[B]

Amazing. Well, that answers my last question, which was just what is the vision for turning point faith? Why did Charlie start it? But that's it. To make heaven crowded.

[D]

Yeah. And I'll say this, that, that, you know, look, I the opportunity to work with Charlie the last 18 months and Charlie always gave me a pretty long leash in my role. I mean, I had a lot of autonomy. And he would just tell me like, hey, go for it and go big, you know, and we're continuing to do this. We have more resolve than ever. Our team at TPSA Faith is so united. We got some of the best staff in the world and we are looking to unite the church around primary doctrine and eradicate wokeism from the American church.

[B]

Amen. Well, I am right there with you, linking arms with y'. All. Have yalls back and praying for y'.

[A]

All.

[D]

Absolutely.

[B]

Thank you, Lucas.

[D]

Really, thank you.

[A]

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[B]

Blake, thanks so much for.

[E]

Thank you for having me. Thank you so much.

[B]

Okay, for those who don't know, can you tell us who you are and what I am?

[E]

I am a producer on the Charlie Kirk show. I was very much in the background of Charlie's show. I, you know, producer Blake. Get me some info. If you, if you listen to hear that. Before that I worked on Tucker Carlson show at Fox. So I've, I've hovered in the background of a lot of historic individuals on the American right, I would say.

[B]

But now you've been thrust into the spotlight.

[E]

Something like that. What is certainly very unwillingly I Would say.

[B]

Right, right. What has that been like?

[E]

It's been very different. I've been at a lot of Turning Point events and I think I'd been recognized once. It was at our Detroit event a year ago. Someone wanted a photo of me for some reason. Now it happens more frequently. It does take some getting used to. You really, you do see how it gets exhausting for a lot of people. But Charlie was a good example on that front. Never let him get it down. Never let it get him down. Always very happy to take a photo, to smile for people, and we have to imitate that.

[B]

Okay, so you're obviously a very fact driven person. That's kind of. I mean, I would hope so, but I. I mean, that's basically been your role. And so I imagine just with a lot of the controversy that's surrounded Charlie and his death and a lot of the conspiracy theories, obviously you plan to debunk a lot of the things that Candace was saying. What has that been like for. For you, even just personally to feel like people are running with fiction?

[E]

It's frustrating. It's challenging. Leads to real pain. I think that's why I wanted. I certainly wanted us to respond to that. It was so painful to see people I knew personally, who I knew had done nothing wrong, both done nothing wrong and never sought the spotlight in any way.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

That they were good employees, good helpers, good friends to Charlie, and entirely because of that, for them to be singled out for incredibly nasty attacks. And there was a comparison that we made when we were making that initial response, that so much of what was said and done, it was so similar to what the worst people in Antifa do, where they take this real delight in tormenting people.

[B]

People.

[E]

And I just have to say, for a lot of them, there clearly was not an interest in seeking the truth, as they would say. There clearly was for some people, an element that they enjoyed hurting people and they liked to find an excuse to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

And that's something that's so common on the left. There's. There's a line. I can't remember who said it, but there are few things more intoxicating than to be told that you can do cruelty to someone and it's morally righteous to do so. And the left loves to do that. That they'll find their cause, that is their justification to victimize and bully and persecute and hurt people. And it's unfortunate to see that come out of this tragedy. And so many good things have come out as well. The revival that we've all seen the. The people who's. Seen all the people come out whose lives are transformed by Charlie. That's the good thing. And that greatly outweighs the bad. But the bad is still there.

[B]

Yeah. The timing of kind of your announcement that, hey, we're going to start fact checking some of these theories. Some people obviously would have preferred y' all not say anything. And then you've got other people that are like, what took y' all so long? So what was the thinking behind when you made the announcement? Okay, we're going to go point by point.

[E]

I don't want to speak too much to that because it was. It was a private discussion we had inside. And I don't want to say exactly what motivated everything. I just want to acknowledge there were arguments both ways, and that's one reason it happened the way it did, that there was certainly an impulse initially to say, and I said this in the statement that so much of this is so strange that it really should just be ignored or. And some thought, if you give it no oxygen, it will eventually go away. But at that point, it had been more than two months and it was not going away. It was only growing in intensity, and it was taking on. And I think it was an important factor, I think, for why we did choose to do something that I'll acknowledge is it felt. I think it was damaging a lot of people who were close to Charlie who were being victimized in this way. And it was dispiriting for people to think that they were being left out there and that they were feeling abandoned. And I really thought we had to send the message, these people are not being abandoned. We are not throwing them to the wolves. These people are innocent. And we should say that.

[B]

Right.

[E]

And I think it was important for people to hear it, hear that, especially people who are just observing from the outside.

[B]

Yeah. Obviously, you know, there was a meeting of the minds between Erica and Candace, and we don't have to talk about, you know, what went into that conversation, because we don't really know. But I certainly was praying for peace. I think we all were, because we want to focus on the right things moving forward. Is the hope just to kind of ignore and fight the fight that, you know, like Charlie charted out or what.

[E]

Is the thinking, what we do that will ultimately be Erica's call. And that dictated a lot of this, that, well, she has the absolute authority over turning Point Point and to decide and as Charlie's widow, to decide how to respond to anything about it. And so that's in her hands. I think you're correct. What we want is we want the focus to be on Charlie's life's work. And Charlie's life's work was not responding to weird theories about him. Charlie's life's work was spiritual revival, American revival, young people revival, successful families, having children. All of those things that he talked about. That's what he wants to focus on. And that's the mission we remain. We who remain have to be committed to.

[B]

Yeah. What is it like the moment that you walked into Amfest for the first time? You see these giant pictures of Charlie's face? I imagine it was emotional, but what was going through your mind?

[E]

It is. It is even. Not even Charlie's face. What really stood out to me was that in the hotel we're staying at across the way, they even decorated the wall there. And it's that photo that everyone's seen of Charlie holding his fist up like that. And it does hit you. What always hits me again is just seeing that. And it does come to mind. I'm not going to see him in this life again.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

And I have so many of those memories of him in the arena, him in person, private, him preparing for the show, him traveling. And I'll have those memories, but they will fade. But what will always be there is, you know, Charlie as he was, that warrior for the faith, that warrior for America. There's a line I always think of. It's from a World War I poem where, you know, it says, they shall not grow old. And that's Charlie. He shall not grow old. We're going to wither. We're going to age. We're going to fade away. Charlie does not fade away. He is always as bright as he was that day at Utah Valley.

[A]

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[B]

This event just feels significant for the right and I guess for the country. It just feels like we are entering into a new era, whatever that is, a new political era. Obviously there's been a lot of disagreements on stage at America Fast, which I think is good. It's certainly entertaining, but it just shows that we're not afraid of disagreement and debate. But do you feel that way that for some reason it just feels like this is the initiation of a new season for conservatism. And what do you think, think that looks like for us to come together and build a coalition?

[E]

I think you're right. I, I said the other day, Charlie chose the date of this very well.

[B]

Right.

[E]

Which is almost happenstance. It's obviously around this time because we have so many students. You can't have it in the middle of the school year. You have the summer and you have the Christmas break and those are the two big opportunities to have something. But it works out well because it's the end of the year. So it's either right after the election, you need to whip people up, remind them, yeah, guys, we have to. The battle continues or it's the start of an election year. And this is when you, first of all, that's when you want to have those debates. You don't want the debate to be happening in October with the election two weeks out. It's much better to have it the month after that election when this is when you can hash out the big stuff for the movement at large. You're correct. I think we're all aware we've had two Donald Trump elections, so we're moving, moving into a post. There will be a post Trump era of conservatism and there's going. And also that a lot of the debates that really defined that era, like how do we feel about immigration, for example, those have actually reached towards a resolution. There's a lot of more agreement on that than there was 10 years ago. So there are new issues people disagree on and those are going to be hashed out and they're not as, it's not as decided which way they're going to go. You know, a thing that happened, we had, we had our subscribers, our, our members Room where we've been interviewing people and we asked them, who do you agree with among the speakers? And for example, we compared. We compared Ben and we compared Tucker, and a lot of hands went up for both. I'll just say that it was a pretty equal number. That is a debate that will be hashed out. And we have to put an emphasis, as Charlie would. If it's evenly matched, you, you're not. Neither side is going to destroy the other. Neither side is going to purge the other. There must be an approach towards synthesis, and that will be challenging. Charlie recognized it was very challenging. But it's work that must be done.

[B]

Sorry, we have a crazy, crazy fan. We're gonna have to call the DHS.

[E]

People to deport that man.

[B]

You know what I've been thinking? The same Jack Posobic causing trouble, causing Sobeck.

[E]

I don't remember that name signing the Declaration of Independence.

[B]

Good point.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Anyway, are you surprised. Are you surprised that that is the issue that's divided us a little and.

[E]

There'S both good and bad aspects to it? It's a little surprising and weird because a bit, let's be frank, a big issue among it. It's how you feel about a different country that is not America and what our policy to be. It's a little weird. Now, what I think is the positive about that is that does also mean it's not super duper foundational the way.

[B]

Well, that's what I think too, but it seems like a lot of people disagree with that. I would agree that it's not foundational. And that's almost, I think, the disagree.

[E]

And that's not to downplay that. It's very important to many people. It is a very important, important issue to people. And I understand that and accept it. But it is not, I mean, it's not on the level of how you feel about the First Amendment of the Constitution, how you feel about what it means to be an American. And that gives me optimism that certainly, for example, that you can reach a synthesis. If you're debating something like the First Amendment of the Constitution. I don't think you really can have just, oh, here's a handy synthesis, right, where we'll agree, you know, we'll find a compromise on this. You're naturally much more uncompromising about that. Whereas I do think on this issue we'll be able to battle towards something, that there will be extremists who are not satisfied with anything but total victory. But I think there will be a much larger number of people who can be satisfied with a center position that is. Emerged that emerges after some debate. That's what I'm hopeful for.

[B]

I'm hopeful for that, too. Okay, speaking of hope, I want you to give us some hope. You're a history buff, correct? I've been called that a lot of times. It feels like, okay, this is the worst that it's ever been. It's the most divided that we've ever been as a country or as a party. And we could never get out of this. Is there anything that we can look at, any era that we can look at, at history that can say we got out of that?

[E]

There's a great one. There's if you. The funny thing is, I think it was a book called Fears of a Setting sun, but I might be getting that wrong. An amazing thing is if you read what the founders were writing late in their lives, early 1800s, a lot of them believed we screwed it up. America is a failure. Everything stinks. The revolution was for nothing. You have Jefferson writing this. You have Madison writing this. The founders were blackpilled. They were black pilled during what we now know was the beginning of a very global, glorious century for America. And they had reasons to think this. They could look at, for example, the slavery divide and think, there's no way this is ever going to be resolved. And in fact, it was resolved very traumatically. And it just built. And it caused so much bad blood, so much conflict. We have political violence in America in the 1850s. You had Americans butchering each other in Kansas even before the Civil War. And yet America went on to have an incredibly triumphant late 19th century, an incredibly triumphant 20th century. It can look very bad in the short term, incredibly bad. And yet we can misread things, we can miss things, we can overcome things. And I think that's a big lesson you can take away from American history.

[B]

Okay, last thing. What is the individual's responsibility if we want to enter into a new golden era of truth and triumph?

[E]

The individual's responsibility. Live like Charlie. I think they've got that sign here. We are all Charlie Kirk. That is aspirational. You must make yourself into a Charlie Kirk or Charlotte Kirk and Erica Kirk.

[B]

A Charlie or an Erica is a choice. It's a choice that you make.

[E]

Courage is a choice and virtue is a choice. Charlie really believed in that, that this was something you could cultivate every day. And his discipline was tremendous. His personal agency was tremendous. He was a person who you really admired more and more. The more you interacted with him, the more. You saw how he functioned, and he really is an example of. Of the sort of hero anyone can be. Like, if you read about Albert Einstein, okay, I could never be Albert Einstein. I'm just not as smart as him. I could never be Michael Jordan. I am not as tall or as good at basketball as him. Even if I practiced 10,000 hours, I would not be remotely as good. But Charlie, so much of what made him good was the sort of thing anyone can do. You can cultivate discipline, you can cultivate virtue, you can cultivate agency. You can't cultivate being 6 foot 5. But most of what made Charlie amazing was this. It was the ability that is perfectly accessible to an ordinary person. And. And if you look at the way he lived his life, and he literally just wrote a book about a big thing about how he lived his life, if you read that and follow it, I think you will be able to bring about that America that he wanted us to have.

[B]

Amen. Well, thank you so much, Blake.

[E]

Thank you very much. Ali.

[B]

Sa.