Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey
Host: Allie Beth Stuckey (Blaze Podcast Network)
Episode: Ep 1297 | Rebutting Ben Cremer’s Unbiblical Take on ICE
Date: February 2, 2026

Overview

This episode centers on Allie Beth Stuckey’s critical response to recent claims by progressive Christian figures—specifically Ben Cremer—regarding the supposed unbiblical nature of supporting ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) and immigration enforcement from a Christian perspective. Allie challenges the arguments labeling such support as "Christian nationalism" and addresses broader accusations that conservative white evangelicals are the root of America's societal problems. The episode is structured around clear rebuttals to prominent progressive talking points, offering listeners scriptural and logical tools for engaging in cultural and theological debates, especially about immigration, nationalism, and the relationship between Christianity and U.S. laws.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Encouragement and Setting the Stage (00:01–04:00)

• Allie opens with a reminder of God’s sovereignty:
  Quote: “God's eternal plan of redemption is going off without a hitch…. Nothing surprises him or takes him aback.” (00:45)
• Christians are called to be "agents of order and clarity" amid societal confusion and chaos.
• Preview: The episode will rebut emotional and scripturally selective arguments made on social media by self-described progressive Christians, particularly around immigration and ICE.

2. Defining "Christian Nationalism" vs. Progressive Accusations (04:00–15:50)

• Ben Cremer’s Claims:
  Stuckey summarizes Ben Cremer’s Instagram post accusing Christian nationalists of prioritizing the "power of the empire" over Jesus-like sacrificial love (05:25–07:45).

  • Notable Quote from Cremer (paraphrased by Allie):
    "Christian nationalism looks like seeing Jesus hanging on the cross and saying he should have just obeyed the law… looks nothing like Jesus." (07:00)

• Allie’s Rebuttal:

  • Defines "Christian nationalism” as simply Christians believing their values should inform their politics, the same way all worldviews inform political action.
  • Rejects the caricature that Christian nationalism equates America with ancient Israel or supports a theocracy.
  • Cautions listeners: The term is often used as a scare tactic to silence Christians’ civic participation.

• Key Scriptural Point:

  • Genesis 1:1 establishes God’s absolute authority; Christian belief in this necessarily shapes all areas of life, including politics. (09:10)

• Quote (Allie):
  “Every single person believes their worldview should inform the policies of our country. This is natural, this is inevitable… Every other group does this. You have the right and responsibility to do the same.” (13:30)

3. The Kingdom of God, America, and Immigration (15:50–28:10)

• Progressives’ Conflation:

  • Ben Cremer and others conflate spiritual obligations (individual or church-level charity and hospitality) with national policy, suggesting America’s immigration laws must mimic biblical commands to "welcome the stranger."
  • Allie points out this is a confusion between spiritual conduct and government responsibility.

• Separation of Church and State Clarified:

  • True definition is about church institution vs. state powers, not about separating God’s authority from the public square.
  • Laws always encode morality; it is both inevitable and appropriate for Christian morality to inform law, just as other philosophies do.

• Quote:
  “This is not the separation of God in law. The founders knew that was impossible. …We were created by a God who has given us inalienable rights.” (19:17)

4. Is Immigration Enforcement Unbiblical? (28:10–34:15)

• Allie's Argument:

  • Every nation has the right and duty to control its borders (parallels drawn with other countries).
  • Cites Romans 13:2–4, asserting government’s divine mandate to enforce law and order.
  • Notes that those who claim border enforcement is about “empire-building” ignore that progressives seek greater government power in many other realms.

• Memorable Point:
  “Sovereignty equals legitimacy, and legitimacy equals the ability to make and enforce laws which protect you.” (30:22)

• Progressive Hypocrisy:

  • Progressives only criticize border enforcement when conservatives are in charge, not when progressives do the same or worse.
  • Emotional manipulation via selective biblical proof-texting is prevalent.

5. Multiculturalism, the Early Church, and Calls for Diversity (34:15–45:00)

• Scriptural Context:

  • Progressive arguments that because the kingdom of God is multicultural, America must not prioritize itself or must pursue open borders.
  • Allie contends that calls for ethnic diversity within nations/local churches are absent from scripture; the command to love the sojourner did not abolish law or societal order.

• Quote:
  “There was not a condoning of lawlessness… sojourners had to follow laws… cared for but not given a pass for lawlessness.” (38:20)

  • Points out the double standard: calls for diversity are only applied to majority-white countries or churches.

• Early Church & Socialism:

  • The early church’s generosity in Acts 2 was voluntary, post-conversion, Spirit-led, and not a government-enforced policy.

6. On Jesus, Activism, and Progressive Mischaracterizations (45:00–49:30)

• Misrepresentation of Jesus:
  • Rejects progressive claim that Jesus was a political activist or was executed for resisting the state.
  • Key Verse: John 10:18 – Jesus laid down his life willingly.
  • Christians are called to copy Christ’s sacrificial love, but not to confuse this with supporting lawlessness.

7. Progressive Christian Leaders’ Accusations against White Evangelicals (49:30–1:17:50)

• John Pavlovitz’s Post Analysis:

  • Pavlovitz blames “conservative white evangelicals” for all national woes, describing them as holding a “death grip on all three branches of government.”

  • Quote (Pavlovitz, read by Allie):
    “White evangelical Christians are the source of everything afflicting our nation. … All of this violence, chaos, dehumanization and suffering. If you want the beautiful, expansive humanity of this world to be equally protected, respected and cared for, they need to be stopped.” (1:10:20)

  • Allie points out this is extremely radical, divisive rhetoric.

• Allie’s Counterpoints:

  • Evangelical Christians are among the most charitable, have built concepts of justice and human rights, and are unfairly scapegoated.
  • She calls out the dangerous dehumanization inherent in depicting a single group as “the source of all problems.”
  • Asks for evidence/citations for such extreme claims.

• Judging Others:

  • Allie critiques Pavlovitz’s broad-brush language as partiality (James 2:1) and a violation of biblical standards for truthfulness and non-hypocritical judgment (Matthew 7:1–5).

• On Claims About Oppression:

  • Refutes assertions that conservative Christians seek “full-blown theocracy,” loss of women’s rights, or the exclusion of minorities.
  • Reiterates Christian basis for opposing abortion and government-compelled redefinition of marriage.

8. Immigration Policy—Biblical and Logical Grounding (1:17:50–1:26:30)

• Practical Application:

  • Allie calls for thoughtful discussions on practical immigration policies—asking questions about limits, enforcement, and sovereign rights that progressives often can’t answer because of emotional rather than rational framing.

• Tragic Results of Policy Failures:

  • Real-life examples (Mollie Tibbets, Kate Steinle) of Americans who suffered due to lax immigration enforcement are cited as evidence for why law and order protects both citizens and immigrants.

• Double Standard:

  • Observes that progressives ignored strict enforcement under Obama/Biden; outrage appears selective and partisan.

• Quote:
  “Is there any level of enforcement of our immigration law that is not Christian nationalist, that wouldn't be fascist?”

9. Critiques of Evangelical and Catholic Leaders on Immigration (1:26:30–1:39:15)

• Evangelical Women:

  • Allie defends evangelical women against critiques, asserting they’re often the strongest bulwark of female conservatism on issues like immigration and abortion.

• Catholic Leaders:

  • Points to public statements by Catholic leaders (e.g., Cardinal Tobin, Pope Leo) that she finds muddled or theologically unsound—especially arguments lumping immigration enforcement with abortion as “pro-life” issues.
  • Critiques the “womb to tomb” rhetoric, calling for clarity in definitions.

• Quote:
  “Just remember: we are not nicer than God. Borders and governments and laws and justice were all God's idea. Remember, God is a God of mercy, but He also is a God of order.” (1:38:55)

10. Pastoral Responses: Moral Clarity vs. Ambiguity (1:39:15–1:44:10)

• Minnesota Pastor’s Viral Clip:

  • The pastor calls out a “villainization” of immigrants by Trump, implying this is “anti-God” and “anti-gospel.” (59:35)
    Quote (Pastor): “When we have a president that is actually villainizing a whole people group, it is anti God, it's anti gospel, and it's anti New Covenant.” (59:35)
  • Allie critiques the response as “wishy-washy,” noting it failed to rebuke fraud or illegal activity and rushed to emotional appeals without moral clarity.

• Role of Pastors:

  • Stresses need for pastors to lead with biblical clarity, not follow media outrage cycles or partisan narratives.

• Quote:
  “We need pastors right now who are just clear… shepherd your flock. But by faithfully exegeting the word of God… you can't preach the Bible without talking about things like abortion, or gender, or marriage.” (1:43:10)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Divine Sovereignty:
  “God's eternal plan of redemption is going off without a hitch. Nothing surprises him or takes him aback.” (00:45, Allie)
• On Christian Influence in Politics:
  “Every single person believes their worldview should inform the policies of our country. ... You have the right and responsibility to do the same.” (13:30, Allie)
• On Separation of Church and State:
  “This is not the separation of God in law. The founders knew that was impossible.” (19:17, Allie)
• On Immigration and National Borders:
  “Sovereignty equals legitimacy, and legitimacy equals the ability to make and enforce laws which protect you.” (30:22, Allie)
• On Partiality and Truthfulness:
  “My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.” (James 2:1, paraphrased at 1:10:33, Allie)
• On Pastoral Courage:
  “We need pastors right now who are just clear… shepherd your flock. But by faithfully exegeting the word of God… you can't preach the Bible without talking about things like abortion… or gender… or marriage.” (1:43:10, Allie)

Memorable Moments

• Allie’s sarcasm in replying to being called a “Christian nationalist”:
  “Oh my gosh Stephanie, I've changed my mind on everything. Thank you so much. My eyes are opened. Abortion is great and men can become women.” (08:31)
• Calling out the hypocrisy in progressive demands for diversity and multiculturalism—only ever applied to majority-white settings (40:45).
• Her emotionally charged critique of John Pavlovitz’s scapegoating rhetoric, likening his language to historic precedents for violence (1:10:20).
• Emphasis on the measurable charity and adoption work of evangelicals, contrasting rhetoric with real outcomes (1:10:50).
• The plea for clarity among pastors and church leaders, as opposed to “wishy-washy” reactions dictated by political trends (1:43:10).

Key Takeaways for Listeners

• Allie arms her audience with scriptural and logical responses to claims that enforcing immigration law, voting for conservative values, or supporting ICE is “unbiblical” or evidence of “Christian nationalism.”
• She underscores the dangers of broad-brush accusations and emotionally manipulative, decontextualized scriptural arguments.
• The call is for Christians to be biblically grounded and courageous—not driven by partisan outrage or cultural fear.
• Conservatives are encouraged not to be cowed by labels, but to respond with reasoned, scriptural clarity and compassion.

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