Daniel (2:00)

Wanted to give you a quick heads up in case you wanted to participate because friend of the podcast Kristin Tiedman and I are doing a four part series where we are reading and responding to the C.S. lewis classic the Great Divorce. This is his allegorical take on the afterlife and although we find a lot of things to disagree with with, especially theologically, there's a lot of really interesting psychological insight in the book and theological insight for that matter. There's a lot to talk about. CS Lewis was extremely formative in the type of evangelicalism that I was raised in. Kristen as well. And so we wanted to give you a little time to get a copy of the book if you want to read along. You don't have to read along, but it's a short book. It's like probably two and a half hour read unless you are going slow and taking a lot of notes. So if you wanted to grab a used copy or fish out your copy from among your documents, which is what both Kristen and I did, we found our old copies. Feel free to do that. We're going to be responding, as I said, over four parts. So two weeks from today on Monday, that'll be the 26th, I think the first episode will drop. That's going to be on the main feed where gonna be responding to chapters one through four and then the next three will be appearing on Thursdays. A little bit of that on the main feed. But the whole episode will be for patrons only. So if you want to get ahead of that and sign up for the Patreon, you can do that. Patreon.com dankok that link is always in the show notes and of course it includes at least two, usually three exclusive episodes per month, membership in the patron only Facebook group and ad free episodes of all the main feed ones as well. You, you get your own special patron feed for your podcast player. But you know, of course the main thing is you get to financially support this show, which I appreciate so, so much. All right, let's get to my conversation today with Bonnie Christian, which was so good. As always, Welcome back everybody to a special episode of Religion on the Mind. We've been calling these Religion on the News. Done a few of these now. Myself and Mason Meninga. Mason, welcome back. Thanks for being here.

Mason Meninga (4:34)

It's good to see you.

Daniel (4:35)

It is always good to see you and it's always good to be given shit by you in whatever ways you find funny in the moment. I tend to agree today's gonna be a little probably a little less silly. So this is a special edition of Religion on the News because, Mason, you live in Minneapolis, Minnesota, which has been the site of not only the sort of most current iteration of the culture war in the United States, but boots on the ground, ICE agent, Federal immigration officers outnumbering local police department. I think five to one is the number that I saw. We've been seeing a lot of reports so we are sort of using this to just talk about what's going on in Minneapolis. However, I must be clear, we are recording this on January 19th Monday. And it's going to be coming out probably Monday, January 26th. So we are a full week behind whatever current updates have happened. So we're not going to try and do news talk. We are going to talk about the concepts and ideas that are coming up for us as a result of these events, which have been ongoing now for, you know, a month or more.

Mason Meninga (5:51)

You're telling me you're not going to be able to be like a prophet that's able to predict what's about to happen here in the next.

Daniel (5:55)

I'm not charismatic. Wow. So I believe in this. I'm a cessationist.

Mason Meninga (6:00)

I thought you were actually a real Christian, but I guess I'm a cessationist.

Daniel (6:04)

I'm not a cessationist.

Mason Meninga (6:06)

We got to get you off that religion and spirituality category and get you back into that news category.

Daniel (6:11)

My goodness, you secular SOB miscategorized on Apple podcasts. So, yeah, I want to talk about. It might be interesting to see where our politics might diverge a little bit on this, but really it's been a clarifying, eye opening, very difficult time. I'll get a little personal with where that's happened for me, but let's start with that question for you, Mason. So, you know, you live in Minneapolis. This is your home turf of all the major cities in the United States, it's yours. What has this been like for you personally? And if you want to include sort of like the actual physical stuff you have encountered, I'd love to hear like some details from your own experience.

Mason Meninga (6:59)

Yeah, yeah. I'll first just say, you know, it's kind of wild to be living in a city where not just the whole United States eyes are on us right now. But I think, I would imagine most of the world is sort of seeing what's happening here. And so I would imagine the energy that is happening in the news right now across the entire world is really focused on Minneapolis. And so, you know, this is the second time in five years, five and a half years that this has happened with George Floyd and his murder and the protests happened after that. And I was living in Minneapolis at that time, too.

Daniel (7:36)

Also attempted murder and kidnapping of the governor, Gretchen Widmer, as well as there was successful slaughtering of state representatives or something. Didn't. So it's actually been a couple other things going on too.

Mason Meninga (7:48)

Yeah, yeah. It's just kind of been an interesting, you know, just the sight or the energy of the world just being on Minneapolis quite a bit over the last number of years. Has been just interesting to me. You know, for me, it's just like, this is home. Like, this is where I. I get groceries. This is where I go to bed. This is where I hang out with my friends. Like, to me, it's just like home. You know, wherever anybody else lives, it's just home. It just so happens that all the eyes of the world, for the most part, are centered at this place right now, which is just interesting. So I just think from that perspective, it's just kind of interesting. I've had a lot of friends reach out to me who don't live in Minnesota that, yeah. Have reached out and said, like, how are you doing? Like, it's just. And it's one of those things where it's like, you know, I got to get up every day and still do my job and still be. Make dinner, and I still want to make time for my friends and loved ones. And also know that, like, there's a lot of really horrible shit that's happening here. And so it's just kind of been a interesting dynamic. And so in that way, it feels very similar to George Floyd. George Floyd felt very similar to this in that way.

Daniel (8:49)

Yeah.

Mason Meninga (8:50)

So I just wanted to start with that. I have encountered a number of things that have been, honestly, like, kind of this good and bad that's happening, kind of this ying and yang of it. First off, I have encountered ICE raids. I've seen those. I think it's public knowledge now that there's a lot of different groups across. Groups of neighborhoods across the Twin Cities that have participated on a. It's called Signal. It's like a text messaging type of app.

Daniel (9:20)

Encrypted texting app.

Mason Meninga (9:22)

Yeah, it's all encrypted. And that is where a lot of organizing is happening, especially when it comes to alerting of raids. And so that's something that I've been on. I've encountered just even just driving. Like, a couple Sundays ago, I was literally driving to church, and there was a raid happening a block away from my church. And so I get out of my car and start recording and, you know, start doing what I can do to, you know, document what's happening and also, you know, see if there's anything that I can do to help protect neighbors. And so, yeah, things like that have been happening. You know, obviously, there's videos everywhere of, obviously, Renee Goode being killed and then all the other videos of just horrible things happening. You know, everybody has seen those. And so, yeah, like, it's all happening. I think a lot of people are like, are these just isolated incidents? It's like, no. Like, this is just what's getting recorded. You know, there's a lot of things that aren't getting recorded. And so there's that. That's happening. And what I think is what to me is what's really cool, and I've told other people about this, is the community coming together to protect neighbors and to support one another in the midst of this really difficult time has been amazing. And so that's something that I'm hoping, you know, I would imagine at some point, in one way, shape or form, this is going to die down. And whenever that happens, who knows when, but whenever that happens, I'm hoping that kind of support and that kind of building of community will continue forth. And so that's something that I've also encountered. So, yes, it's bad, it's horrible, but it's also, there's like this really cool thing.

Daniel (10:52)

Do you feel personally more connected to sort of the larger, you know, liberal Christian community in your city as a result of this stuff?

Mason Meninga (11:01)

I mean, I already was pretty connected to a lot of folks. And that's where a lot of the organizing that, like, a lot of the events and stuff that I've been participating in have been primarily organized by the sort of left religious world here locally in the Twin Cities.

Daniel (11:16)

Lutheran clergy, Episcopals. Yeah, stuff like that.

Mason Meninga (11:19)

Yeah, yeah. All those sort of folks that are involved, very actively involved. And so that might be one thing to even point out, not just clergy being organized in the Twin Cities, but the Twin Cities are actually one of the best organized communities in the country. It's hard to know whether it's the most or not. But what's interesting, and I don't know if Trump was prepared for this, is the fact that in terms of activists and community organizers, the Twin Cities are one of the most organized communities in the country. And so because of that, there was already a level of preparation to sort of have this kind of resistance that we're seeing. And so it is no accident that people are seeing the kind of resistance, because that is kind of built within the DNA of the Twin Cities as really good community organizing.

Daniel (12:04)

Yeah. For me, what got me kind of finally jumping into all of this, like, of course I saw the Rene Goode stuff and was, you know, just deeply saddened by it and worried about escalation. And I think something that we'll probably talk about today is the feeling of powerlessness. There's like multiple types of powerlessness that I have felt there's sort of like on the ground, effectual powerlessness. Like, I can't, like, physically do anything to change this necessarily. But then maybe actually the kind of living in different worlds as the people on the right who are supporting this powerlessness, which is like a. Oh, I had thought in a sort of standard way for most of my life that words could be used to bridge divides and communicate across difference. And I think that one of the things that we are Realizing the last 10 years especially, is that actually there are limits to that. And those limits have to do with kind of other ways that you accept language and words and facts and all this kind of thing, your interpretive framework, which I maybe shouldn't have been surprised by because I was raised in a subculture that explicitly warned me against being friends with certain kinds of people because you couldn't trust what they had to say. And you knew that before you ever heard anything that they said. So maybe. And by the way, I'm not only pinning the blame on evangelicals with that example. I'm just saying that that might just be a truth about human psychology. But the thing that happened for me was seeing the reporting about the refugees where it's like, okay, I know that ice, well, there's a lot to talk about with immigration enforcement type stuff. I'll just say very briefly, I think there is a role for ICE as a departmental organization in the United States that definitely makes me more of a moderate in these kind of conversations. But I would see that role as, like, primarily agents stationed on the border that they are enforcing immigration at the locality of the border with our country and Mexico especially, because that's the only border that, you know, Canada is not so much an issue or ports, you know, where people fly in and, you know, whatever, like, places that people enter the country. I am comfortable with having immigration control and enforcement at borders. So I know that already kind of puts me off of some people's acceptability plane there. I don't believe we should abolish the entire institution of ice, although maybe reconstituting it in a meaningfully different way. I'm way into that idea. But what's going on here is well beyond border enforcement, obviously. And Trump promised this. You know, he and Stephen Miller have been promising mass deportations for years. And. But refugees who are in Minneapolis legally, after going through the most vigorous background checks that our country does for any type of entering immigrant, now they're being split apart, sent to Texas. They're, like, enforcing technical rules that have never been enforced before. You, you really need to get that green card paperwork sorted out. But there can be various reasons why you might not have done that, including the fact that the Trump administration is, like, trying to process as few of them as possible. So even if you tried to get it processed, you might not, might not work. And that's kind of all part of the design where the cruelty is the point. And that's when I started seeing the refugee stories. I got my blood pumping. It's been a wild week or two for me since then. Yeah. With really that predominant feeling being powerlessness and frustration.

Mason Meninga (16:07)

Yeah. You know, I would have a different, obviously, opinion about ICE and its usefulness. However, I will say, like, obviously, I think what's interesting to see, and we've already seen a number of viral videos of this, of people who are probably like yourself or maybe even more right than you, Daniel, that are living in.

Daniel (16:25)

If you can believe it.

Mason Meninga (16:27)

Yeah. You can imagine the people on the right of you. There are Minnesotans, even in the suburbs of the Twin Cities that are seeing this and are like, this is beyond what they would have ever imagined ICE to do. And that is where I have maybe some hope that there's maybe real possible actionable steps here to resist this even more. And so that, to me, has given me hope. Now. I might have, like, at the end of the day, have a fundamentally different opinion about ICE than that person or you even. However, I think what we can all agree with is, like, this right now, this department, this federal department, is being used towards what I think can be probably rightfully argued as sort of fascist type of. Fascist type of a regime. Like, we're literally going into communities and targeting vulnerable people and. And whether or not those people are worthy of, you know, criminal enough or worthy of deportation, we're going into those communities, taking those people out. I mean, I've seen a report that they've deported enough people now out of Minnesota that we might even lose a congressional seat. And to me, like, that's not an accident, right? That's not an accident at all. So, to me, like, that is what Trump is trying to use this department for, and that is concerning. And I think even the moderate out there has got to be concerned about that.

Daniel (17:54)

Well, okay, so a little bit of politics, because I do think it's relevant here, and I think it's good news for what you're saying. I think that is what we're seeing. So there was, like, a Quinnipack poll from last week, so this will be about 10 days old now by the time people hear this episode. But there is some pretty strong evidence there that Americans do not like these kind of specific strongman tactics. So even in a highly polarized country, 40% approve and 57% disapprove. And this is exactly the kind of thing that turns swing voters, you know, more independently voters, even though those are only, what, like 8 to 10% maximum of the electorate. Like, those are the people you need to win in the midterms or lose in the midterms. And so I do think, like, the very basic sort of. How are the moderates reacting to this? The evidence seems to point pretty squarely to they are reacting poorly to this. And some of that poor. I was listening to the Dispatch podcast break it down, and so they. They talked about a little bit of the details there, and. And that's pretty much the only way to take this information, is that it's not good for Trump politically. And the way that, you know, I think it complicates my position. Like, I don't think it is morally wrong for a nation to police its borders. I actually think it's probably morally right for a nation to do that, because at some point, you will just lose all your ability to provide benefit to people at a certain point of permeability of those border membranes to bring us all back to freshman biology or chemistry or whatever that was. It's the cell membrane. But what we have, I think, ample evidence for that I don't really think is controversial at all, is that the current administration has no interest in using this agency in a measured, law and order fashion. They are purposefully being gadflies in liberal cities and liberal states, like, hoping for more protests, hoping to be able to have cover for the Insurrection act and bringing troops in. And for Trump, it's all about going directly at these Democrat places and turning it into war. And Vance and Trump both signaling that basically federal prosecutors are not gonna prosecute any of these agents. Now, whether or not that ends up being legal or true in the long run, in the short run, these guys have as much legal cover as they possibly could want. And also, Trump is, you know, widely expected to do a mass blanket pardon on his way out of office this term. So he could just pardon every single ICE agent involved in the entire operation, and then they'll be pardoned. So that sort of, like, obvious overuse, where, you know, they're like, yeah, you guys are good. This is really a distinct moment in American history in my lifetime. And it is. It just is. It's a new chapter. I have something specifically. I'D like to talk about in that new chapter that is a little bit more psychological, kind of more the stuff that I work on with clients, but maybe just give you a chance first to reflect on the newness of this and, you know, being there in person. I'm sure that that's even more visceral.

Mason Meninga (21:24)

Right. Well, a couple things that come to mind about. Yeah. The fact that this feels like a distinct moment, one of which is, I think it's maybe worthwhile to note. You know, obviously this is happening all across the country, but why it seems so targeted in Minnesota is because I think Trump is trying to have retribution against Tim Walls. I think there is something where he had something clearly personal against Tim Walls. And I think there's a good argument. I could be wrong, but I think there's a good argument to be made that this is retribution against Tim Walls.

Daniel (21:52)

Everything Trump does is retribution. Does towards Democratic leaders or places. You know, he's been using the Justice Department. I mean, he. He's basically like, I'm gonna go after my enemies. He said it publicly, he won the election, and now he's doing it. I think that's uncontroversial.

Mason Meninga (22:08)

Yeah. The other thing is, I mean, even Christy Noem, I think last week threatened that people should start carrying their passports. They should start carrying their papers. And I don't know, Dan. Like, I. I know that. I think maybe early on, maybe even 2016, there was a lot of this concern about the rise of fascism in. And maybe that was a little overblown. Then at this point, it kind of feels like it doesn't feel that far off. Right. Like, it doesn't feel that far off. Like we're that close. And if. If we actually get to that point where we actually are going to have to start carrying our passports, every single one of us, then I don't know. Like, I don't know what kind of free country we actually have. And I don't know if there's an argument to be made that we aren't really, at least maybe at the point of no return towards fascism.

Daniel (22:53)

Yeah. I'm not the kind of person who can speak with experience or authority on what tips into fascism or whatever. I would say that it's clear to me that the administration loves what we might call the fascist vibes or the diet fascism of this entire operation in Minneapolis. That seems obviously true to me. And that it is for them and who they perceive to be their base that it is on purpose that that is what they are wanting, and that makes Me disgusted and saddened. But this is kind of a nice cue. Like, regardless of how far we are on that 0 to 100, 100 being pure fascism scale, I think the presence of the armed men, this was a little bit true with like LA and the Home Depot raids and all that kind of stuff. But I think it feels more salient now with Minnesota that this changes things relationally. It's not just a new phase for like, what the administration is doing. It's a new phase psychologically for people who feel a gulf between them and loved ones. I was thinking this morning, I was like, comparing it to, you know, you think about like, the Trump Putin Helsinki summit where or all the times where Trump has like, basically just like, sold out American allies and what have traditionally been considered American interests to just like, cozy up to a fellow mob boss. That was like, deeply embarrassing and kind of like worrying, but mostly in an abstract sense because I don't really think about NATO in Europe all that often. Like, it's not that relevant to my life. It is further away. Like, I'm feeling embarrassed and maybe my uncle is like, firing his conceal carry pistol into the air and yee hawing out loud because America keeps quote, unquote, winning. That does feel like a distance, but it's pretty abstract. If my uncle is like, I'm glad that there are armed men pulling people out of their homes and schools. You know, roving around Minneapolis at five times the amount of the normal police force there, that feels like a bigger relational distance, potentially a bigger relational break between me and someone else in my life. And yeah, that's kind of what was hitting me this morning thinking about that's a new level of distance. And maybe some people, you know, listeners, those folks are already fully cut out of their lives. But I know from friends, clients and other folks that, like, a lot of these people are still in our lives. You know, we got grandparent, you know, relationships, things like this. There's all kinds of reasons to still be in relationship. And this seems to represent like a new level. I wonder what you think about that.

Mason Meninga (26:03)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, for example, I remember seeing this video, right, of Renee Goode that everybody saw of her getting killed. And to think that we're all seeing the same exact video and there is two very distinct interpretations of that video and the fact that that can't be reconciled and the fact that, like, I think for a lot of us that see it one way and we're like, how can you literally not see this any other way? And that part of It. It's just. It blows my mind. And obviously you, as a psychologist probably have different ways of thinking through that. And it doesn't feel the same way as, like, looking at the six clever verses of the Bible, and we just see it very differently or whatever. Like, this feels almost like more cut and dry of, like a. Like, it feels like there is no other way to interpret it kind of thing. And the fact that, like, other people still interpret it differently, it still blows my mind. And, yeah, it's really difficult. And I think you're right. Like, it truly is this fracture that really points to the polarization that has happened. And, yeah, I just don't know how to reconcile the fact that I see that video and some people think that it is absolutely okay for a authority, a federal authority to do something like that to another person. And for me to be like, no, that just doesn't seem like a thing that we should be doing to each other. And the fact that, like, some people are, like, actually even glad that that federal authority would do something like that, like, that is just the part of it where it's like, wow, the cruelty seems to really be the point. And especially when I see Christians cheer this on, and I'm like, we just clearly understand Jesus really differently. Because the Jesus I know, the Jesus I read, just isn't somebody who, regardless of what you. What you think about ice. Like, the Jesus that I know is and read, is not the kind of person that would cheer the killing of.

Daniel (27:59)

Somebody on, as listeners know and will continue to be reminded against their will. I've been getting really into existential psychology, Mason, and one of the really big ideas within that is that it is important for us. You know, this is. This. These are worldviews that developed in times, like after World War II in Europe, right? Like times of insane global upheaval, mass evil and death and murder and all this stuff. So like our time, but actually ratcheted up, you know, by comparison. And what they say is like, you gotta face reality without avoiding it. You gotta look at reality in the face and admit what's going on. Because if you don't do that, then you're sort of living in your own little avoidant bubble, and, you know, your life is gonna suffer for it. And one thing that I think is, you know, here's a question I have. I won't make an argument here. My question is, is it time for me, for others to just call a spade a spade and say, we have gotten to the point practically, where these visions of Christianity are So incompatible with each other that they really are different religions. And, you know, if that's the case, then that's not an anomaly historically. This is actually how religions change and develop. They break off from each other all the time. You can ask a historian of religion about it. You know, Christianity comes to a new place via missionaries and it starts looking like the old one. But eventually it kind of has its own flavor and significant differences. And I just sort of wonder. I think we could also. Maybe there's a biblical element here that we could also hit on this after you respond, but maybe that's just accepting reality, is that I have Christians in my life who, when they say I'm a Christian. And if we could actually, if we could carefully and accurately map out, let's say that the 10 most important truths and takeaways of what that means, that we just have mutually incompatible religions.

Mason Meninga (30:21)

Yeah, I mean, it's a good question, and it's a question that I think will continue to. And honestly, you know, it's not a question that we'll just continually ask ourselves. I think in some ways it will continue to haunt Christians, people that identify as Christian. As we continue to see just this massive division between Christians, there are people, I think, that are smarter than me that can certainly kind of speak to historically how this has played out. And also, like, what maybe that. What it maybe should look like moving forward. I will say, though, historically speaking, you know, Christianity is, what, over 2,000 years old. It has gone through the rise and fall of a number of empires, many of which have been supported by Christianity and many of which have been resisted by Christianity. So this kind of dynamic of an empire and authoritarianism and the rise of it and the fall of it, like Christianity has been enmeshed on the pro and the anti side of all of that for 2000 years. And it seems like that in the midst of that, there still seems to be this thing that we know as Christianity. And I don't foresee, like, maybe some sort of split between. Between these are true Christians and this is sort of this, like, other version of Christianity that now, or maybe not even. We don't even call it Christianity. Like, I don't see that happening anytime soon. Just because for 2,000 years, we just haven't really seen that kind of. Now we obviously, we see, especially after the Protestant Reformation, we see that kind of different kinds of Christians emerge. But I just have a hard time believing that we're actually going to see like a new sort of religion form in the midst of this, this division this polarization.

Daniel (32:07)

Here's a connection to old school. You have permission type episodes. I love this idea. In Christian Smith's book, the Bible Made Impossible, he uses this metaphor of, you know, the Bible contains just a thousand pieces, these sort of individual facts and concepts that on a. On a traditional, Orthodox, small O view of the Bible, let's just say, at least since Protestantism, within Protestantism, since the 1500s, would be this idea that, well, he calls it biblicism. So maybe it's actually a more recent view that he kind of traces to, you know, the fundamentalist rejection of the Enlightenment and stuff like that. So whatever, maybe it's 200 years old, but it's. But it's the view that we were both raised with that says the Bible speaks with one voice as long as you get all the pieces oriented correctly and you make the right puzzle picture with all the pieces of the puzzle. And Smith says, no, the Bible is multivocal. There is not a puzzle that all the pieces fit together, which is why we have thousands of different puzzles that people make with all the same pieces. They have the same Bible that they're working with, and they come to radically different views because the Bible does not only say one thing. I noticed this tendency in my progressive friends. They will quote Scripture. You know, I feel for them. They are watching the news, they are thinking about it, and they are posting a scripture passage that they think is, like, unambiguously clear on what this means for our current sociopolitical moment. But it is not because the other people have a different view of the Bible that can accommodate that verse by emphasizing other verses. And I think that we're sort of seeing in real time that the Bible truly can be used effectively, psychologically effectively used to justify entirely opposite perspectives on very important questions. A question that is actually asked in the text of Jesus, who is my neighbor? Who am I to love? Jesus answers with the Good Samaritan parable, right? So I think, oh, the Somali refugees are my neighbor. They are the Samaritans of my day. And a conservative Christian will go, no, dude, you're getting it all wrong.

Mason Meninga (34:41)

So, yeah, yeah, I'm seeing a lot of Romans 13 being thrown around by a lot of conservative Christians right now.

Daniel (34:48)

Is that the government, respect for government? 1.

Mason Meninga (34:51)

Yeah, yeah, you gotta obey the government. And to me it's like, okay, all right, that exists. I'm not gonna deny that. That's not in the Bible.

Daniel (34:58)

Yep, certainly sort of like the refugees have done. They obeyed the government, and, yeah, they.

Mason Meninga (35:03)

Did all the things that they were supposed to do. And they still are, you know, they still are getting knocked out. But I can assure you that these conservatives were not quoting Romans 13 when Covid restrictions were happening in 2020.

Daniel (35:15)

No, they weren't exactly right.

Mason Meninga (35:16)

There was a lot of Revelation, a lot of book of Revelation going on quoting during that time. So that's the thing. And I wish they were maybe a little bit more aware of the fact that that's what we do. I had some tweet the other day that I said something about we all sort of cherry pick as Christians. And, and what's frustrating is like so many Christians, you know, typically more conservative evangelical folks just simply don't think that they're cherry picking. And I'm like, no, you do that, I do that. We're all doing that. That's the point is the Bible says lots of different things. You're gonna be able to make a pro argument and an anti argument all from the Bible. And that's because we're using the Bible to push forward our own agendas. And the thing is, that's what the Bible is doing. The gospels are trying to get you to think of Jesus a certain way. Each one of them all a little differently, right? So the Bible has its own agenda. Some people could even say that each of those gospels and many of the other books of the Bible are propaganda. They're trying to get you to believe in something. Right? And because of the fact that the Bible is so different, you're going to be able to get propaganda that says one thing and then get propaganda that says just the opposite thing. This is how the Bible is. So we just need to be aware of that and how we're then using that and why. And that's why I think it just comes back to where, where do we get. That's where I think Jesus needs to come into the picture. But obviously there's that too.

Daniel (36:44)

Well, okay, let me press you. Not like that, I disagree, but ask you to push a little further on that. So when you feel the temptation, I mean, I, I'll say if you feel what I feel, which is a similar temptation to like find the appropriate verse, text it to the conservative people in my life that I still communicate with, which in terms of the Trumpy conservatives has dwindled to a couple old friends and people I am related to in one way or another. You know, it's gotten pretty small, but there's still a few people and they come to mind when I get angry and I want to send them one of These verses, right? And then I catch myself, because I know that they will just have a fucking response and it will not go anywhere. And that's when I feel really powerless. Do you catch yourself similarly? Like, basically, what I'm wondering is this. I think the existentialists are right that we have to accept reality as we actually find it. And I think that that means in a case like this, what I'm being invited to accept is that the scripture of my religion does not sort of give me obvious moral high ground because it's just not used consistently that way. So it is used consistently that way at my church, but it is not used consistently that way at other churches. And those churches also exist and are full of people. So, like, is that an area where we should challenge ourselves to accept a potentially dark reality with. With maybe some other consequences? We would not like that. That's the reality of how our scripture is used. Like, does that. Am I being clear enough?

Mason Meninga (38:33)

Yeah. I mean, I think we need to accept that. And I think you're right that, like, whether we're liberal, right. Wherever we are. Right. Like, I think, like, what you were saying is, like, you could send any sort of verse to your conservative loved ones and it's just not going to do anything to them. Right. Like, that's just because they're not in a place where they can actually accept what that scripture might be trying to get them to accept. And that is.

Daniel (39:01)

Well, if they sent me Romans. Flip it around. If one of them sent me Romans 13. Fucking. Yeah, right?

Mason Meninga (39:08)

It goes exactly.

Daniel (39:09)

I'm rubber your glue. It's bouncing right off. Like, that's not going to move me at all. Are you kidding me? Yeah.

Mason Meninga (39:15)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's where I think, at the end of the day, that's why these relationships matter the most. That's where true change happens. I think about this for myself at one point, I was one of those conservative people. I was one of those conservative Christians. That was exactly the kind of people that are in my DMs or in my Twitter mentions or in your family group text. I was one of those people at one point. And what truly, at least for me, completely changed how I thought about the world was I actually ended up meeting a gay person. I ended up meeting an immigrant. Like, I actually ended up having a relationship with somebody. And it made me have to rethink how I thought about these people. And then it fundamentally changed the way I thought about the world. And so I think those relationships. And I think that is the same for the person that grew up a lifelong Democrat and how they think about conservatives, like actually get to know one of those conservatives understand where they're coming from. And there might still be some, like, pretty abhorrent things that you think that they believe. But at the end of the day, at least you can put a face to a name and you can put that, like when you think of that person that CNN's talking about, you can at least put a face to that person that they're talking about.

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Daniel (41:35)

In a minute, I want to talk about the disruption of the church service where the pastor is an ICE administrator or whatever. I think we're going to have some disagreement about that. And before we do, I'd like to ask where you have because you shared a bunch of stories with me, news links that I went through and read about clergy responding in very cool ways. So I want to ask you first, like, where has this whole experience strengthened your Christian faith?

Mason Meninga (42:12)

Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this the other day where it was actually, I think it was the night. So Renee Goode was killed in the morning and that evening at the site of her Murder. There was a vigil and many clergy organizing that as well. And I remember at this vigil, you know, there's sort of a lot of this mourning and grieving and all of that that's happening just like any other vigil. But there was this site where people could drop off, and this site has continued. Like, her murder site has continued to be this place where if. If you are a person that you're too scared to go outside of your house right now, like, there's a site where people are picking up groceries and feminine products and whatever it is that people really need, and those people are picking those up at this site where Renee Goode was killed and then distributing them to homes where they are needed. And when I was at this vigil the other day a couple weeks ago now, and I remember thinking to myself, like, you know, I know the kingdom of God is not fully realized, but, like, this is kind of what it may be. Would feel like, like these people coming together in the midst of tragedy, in the midst of tragedy, coming together and. And mourning and grieving and. And that is necessary, but then loving each other, asking the person that they don't know, asking them, hey, what do you need right now? Like, what do you need a hug? Do you need a water bottle? Like, do you need some food right now? Do you need a tampon? Like, whatever. Like, that was to me, like, that's the cool part. And that's where, like, my faith is strengthened. Now, obviously, there's a lot of other people in the Twin Cities that probably we wouldn't see this as like, wow, that's the kingdom of God breaking through. But at least for me, in my Christian faith, I'm like, I think when Jesus is talking about the kingdom of God, like, this would have been one of the parables he would have been talking about. And at the site of this murder that just happened, people coming together, grieving and mourning and supporting one another. And I think that's the kind of parable that Jesus would have been talking about when he was trying to describe the kingdom of God.

Daniel (44:10)

I like that connection to the kingdom of God. I think what I'm recognizing in myself is that two things are happening at the same time that are sort of at cross purposes or in tension with each other. On the one hand, I am experiencing kind of what you're exper. I think I would even more viscerally if I were in person. But even just through reading the news and sort of thinking through and thinking through what some people are doing locally here in Washington. And the way that sort of faith in action is being put into place, it is orienting. So there's an orienting thing and a disorienting thing. And what's orienting is like, oh, yeah, here are people from a wide variety of walks of life and different experiences, you know, through especially these liberal clergy, sort of using language that I have understood my whole life. It is orienting to my having been raised a Christian to hear them quoting the Good Samaritan and various other parables and teachings of Jesus as they care for people who are being, you know, systematically targeted by an obviously bad faith regime right at the moment administration. That regime might be too strong. I don't know where the line is there, but that's orienting. And that actually connects me to not only my faith of today, but my faith of my childhood and teenage years, my Jesus punk rock phase and all that shit. And it is simultaneously disorienting to know and to know without a shadow of a doubt that the vast numerical majority of Americans who claim Christ do not see it that way. That they're like, no, this is like, no, no, Jesus would. I guess they would say Jesus would want us to do the opposite. Or, I don't know. Like, the one friend I spoke to was. He used a phrase not just toxic empathy. He used the phrase suicidal empathy, which was like an upgrade in that discourse. And I just was like, wow, okay, so that will sort of justify anything because otherwise it's suicide. And so, you know, and I don't want. This is just one person. He doesn't speak for everybody. And, you know, all that shit, all those caveats. But it is just, it's. It's really disorienting that people could be looking at this and taking this, this opposite conclusion. Maybe that's a really sort of a basic bitch kind of a point here. But I just noticed that, like, part of me wants to go, yeah, orienting, orienting. This is. I'm touching grass. I'm like, getting back to my roots and I just can't help but remember that we're in the, like, maybe we're like one quarter of American Christians or less or something that see it this way and that. The other 75%, I don't know if that's exactly the right number. And there's probably a bunch in the middle who could not be categorized on either side necessarily. But whatever. The lion's share of Christians are not in agreement with me on that. They do not find these same actions orienting people who are actively Trying to protect the vulnerable people among them they see as antithetical to the gospel or something. And fuck, dude, I just like, is there no end, right? Will I just die feeling like I was raised in a form of Christianity that changed entirely? And then everybody went along till they died telling themselves that they were right? Is that just the way life is? And if it is, I want to acknowledge that and accept it. That's a bummer thing to be true about the world. But increasingly I think, I guess that's just truth.

Mason Meninga (48:01)

I mean, maybe my response to that is, you know, I often thought about like when I started leaving conservative evangelicalism and, but obviously remained a Christian and started to get into this more like, left version of Christianity. I remember like one of the things that I thought to myself was, wait, this is way harder to follow Jesus now. It used to be really easy to follow Jesus when like the only commitment, the only demand that Jesus had on you was just believe the right thing. Like, that was easy when I was a conservative evangelical, but now that like the demand of Jesus that I had when I became more left was I need to like, actually love my neighbor, which means I, like might have to step in and protect my neighbor. Like, that kind of demand feels way more intense and it becomes way more difficult. And then when I read like when Jesus talks about like the way being a narrow, like the narrow gate and just like how difficult following Jesus might be, like, that's when it made sense to me. I'm like, the easy thing was just to believe the right things about him. That's easy. The harder thing is to actually live like this guy, to actually protect the vulnerable, to actually live out that kind of love that he lived. That's way harder. And so that like, is what maybe gives me hope, is that yes, it is really demoralizing or disorienting like you said, when you see so many other Christians kind of going the route that they're going and living and believing what they believe. And yet I'm comforted by the fact that like Jesus was pretty clear, like, this is going to be really difficult. Like, it's going to be a narrow way. And I'm not trying to like maybe make myself holier than thou, but I do remember like thinking, wow, this is way harder to follow Jesus now when it isn't just simply believe the right things.

Daniel (49:48)

I'd want to think about this more. But my gut reaction is that probably there are really difficult things in both versions, but they're different. The amount of sexual self control that was Demanded in that version of Christianity is actually so difficult that now therapists like myself are helping people recover from all the damage that was done by trying to white knuckle purity culture. So I would say maybe economically, the way that we show up sort of in the world of resources, that's harder as a liberal Christian than a conservative Christian where, you know, all your suburban choices can, in the right church, be fully baptized as God breathed. But in other ways, it was harder. And. Yeah, so that's right.

Mason Meninga (50:38)

I don't know.

Daniel (50:38)

I want to think about that more. Let's talk about this disruption of the church service. So the very basic story is there's this. Can you set up the. You probably know the facts on the ground better than me.

Mason Meninga (50:48)

Yeah. So there's this. I think I saw that it was a Southern Baptist church plant that.

Daniel (50:53)

I think it's Southern Baptist Church. Yeah.

Mason Meninga (50:56)

Yeah. I don't know how long it's been around. It sounds like maybe at least a decade OR so in St. Paul. It's not in the suburb. It's in St. Paul. It's actually really close to where I live, about a mile away. And, yeah, they were having a church service like any other church service, and a group of protesters came in, including Don Lemon as a media person, who. He's like a CNN guy, right? Don Lemon, I think he used to.

Daniel (51:17)

Be a CNN guy. I'm not sure if he still is. Yeah.

Mason Meninga (51:19)

Okay. So anyway, he, along with a number of other people, go in because it had been found out that one of their pastors, not their lead pastor, but one of their pastors, is obviously a pastor there, but also works in administration with ice. I forget exactly what his title was, but he works in administration. I don't think he's an agent on the ground, but he is somebody that works.

Daniel (51:40)

Oh, he's like some sort of director role or deputy director or something like that. I thought I read. But anyway, he's involved at the administrative level with ICE in Minnesota.

Mason Meninga (51:50)

Yeah, yeah. And so they come in, they protest. I think they were probably asked to leave. I haven't watched, like, all the video, but, yeah, they were, like, asked to leave. They didn't really leave. They were protesting. And then, yeah, it sort of ended. And so now the Department of Justice is pressing charges against them. I saw that. And obviously, a lot of people are very sort of disturbed by the fact that this church service was disturbed during.

Daniel (52:15)

Am I right that we're gonna have a different take, or are you gonna zag and surprise me? What's your Take on this.

Mason Meninga (52:21)

I might zag. Like, I think, I think I'll probably zag because. Yeah, like, yeah, I think I might surprise you a little.

Daniel (52:27)

Well, let's, well, I'll give you, I'll give you the first chance to speak. What's your take on that tactic?

Mason Meninga (52:32)

So my first thing is I don't like, I think the way they did it was probably not great, partly because, and I did see video of this, like there were children in the church service, right? And I would imagine they had probably some like children's ministry room. And like seeing children scared coming out of that building was like, I don't think, like, as protesters and I've been a lot of protests, but I'm like, as a protester, like, I don't think scaring children is probably like, if you know that there's a possibility to scare children, you probably should avoid that kind of protest. And so they like definitely missed that, or at least in my opinion, missed that. So there is that. Like, I do think there is a way to protest. Like they could have maybe done it outside or something, but they, There is a way, I think, to protest the fact that like, you think, hey, it should be incompatible for a pastor of a church that supposedly is preaching the gospel to also participate with an organization that is hurting a lot of neighbors right now. I think there's a way to protest that and I think that should be protested. But I don't think interrupting a church service is the way to do that.

Daniel (53:36)

There's a way to let the congregation of that church know that that's what their pastor is up to. Let's just say that that's publicly information, but that maybe they don't know. And you know, hey, do you want to have a moral reckoning inviting people to a sort of a moral reckoning with this? Actually, just speaking of some of the good work that's been done, here's a quote from one of the pieces you sent me. This is from a clergy quote I was talking with one ICE agent about Matthew 25. Whatever you did for the least of these, you did unto me, she said. He told me he was going to go home and read Matthew 25 tonight. I encouraged him to take a look at Matthew 5 also for the Sermon on the Mount. That is a clergy person engaging in a good faith conversation with someone on the other side. Right. Okay. Well, I guess we don't disagree too much and maybe that just shows my small mindedness toward you, my friend. But my take on disrupting a church service is this is a very bad idea. It probably provided emotional, temporary catharsis to people who were there and watched the video. I'm thinking specifically of people like myself who are disgusted with evangelicalism's appalling record on this stuff and sort of central role in propping up Trump and his administration. But it's a bad idea morally and pragmatically. Morally. This has been a point of agreement among Christian, including progressive Christian protesters, really for 2,000 years. Like, even liberal theologians like Reinhold Niebuhr and leaders like MLK were explicitly against disrupting worship services. Many of King's services were interrupted, but he did not return the favor with his group. Even now, this is where I was going to get you if you and I disagreed. Mason. Even Latin American liberation theologians and leaders typically steered clear of actual worship services. They would host worship services in other settings to sort of recontextualize worship like their own worship, but they would not go in and disrupt like the local big Catholic parish or whatever. And the idea. So I find this plausible that this idea that we would disrupt a church service kind of owes to like, much more recent lefty ideas that like, everything is really just about power. And so a church service is just another place where there's power. And so we go anywhere that there's power and we speak truth to it or something. And I just. That just seems like naive pragmatically. All it will do is coalesce the other side, not just locally, but probably nationally, if not internationally. They just did everybody a non favor who cares about America and cares about the people who ICE is targeting by doing that. And one way to kind of think about it, to help navigate these questions, like, were they there because they were genuinely calling for repentance or were they there to publicly shame and humiliate people? And I think that the woman that I quoted earlier from the piece, that was a genuine call to repentance, she's engaging with someone. And I think that this was a stunt and it was basically to get that feeling of catharsis and say, shame on you. But speaking psychologically, that doesn't work, especially when it is transparently performative and political. It's just gonna, for nine, nine out of 10 people on the other side, it's just gonna further ingratiate them against you.

Mason Meninga (57:02)

Yeah, I maybe would have maybe slightly different feelings if it was like a group of clergy and they did call for repentance. I would maybe even that. I don't know if I would still say, hey, that's a good Idea.

Daniel (57:14)

It's still weird to interrupt someone worshiping to ask them to repent. Like there's just something. It just doesn't really line up. It's like, I don't know, go to their like monthly church meeting or go to do the evening choir practice or something where all the, you know, I don't know, like, or a church vote or something go. Then like a Sunday morning with the families and the kids. And it's just like, it gives the vibe that nothing's sacred. And if somebody who lives with a sort of sacred view of the world, like a practicing Christian, experiences you to believe that even this is not a sacred space that can just be violated anytime, then they are gonna feel incredibly unsafe. And then they are definitely not gonna join your side if you're making them feel unsafe.

Mason Meninga (58:04)

Yeah, again, like, I think it could have been just as easy to just like make a post about, hey, this guy's a pastor of this church and also is helping ICE in Minnesota. Like, I could have seen that go viral without needing to interrupt a service. Like, again, I just, I don't think it's the worst thing that could have happened, but I definitely, probably am like, yeah, that probably should have been better orchestrated. And I will say, like, I think it's worth noting, from my understanding, none of the people that were involved in this protest, at least from what I've seen or heard, like certainly were not clergy. And from my understanding, none of them seem to be sort of progressive Christian type of leaders in the twin sets.

Daniel (58:44)

Better.

Mason Meninga (58:45)

Yeah.

Daniel (58:46)

Well, if it's cool with you, I'd like to kind of pivot to some pragmatic stuff.

Mason Meninga (58:52)

Okay.

Daniel (58:53)

Because I think that probably a lot of listeners are experiencing sort of similar emotions and thoughts to what I'm experiencing. From afar. You are able to be involved in a more hands on way than, than the, than most of us. One idea is that it can be helpful for us to clarify what is within our control and what is not within our control. A very basic idea would be like, I can't affect federal law enforcement strategy. It is not practical for me to physically fly to Minnesota right now, given the other responsibilities I have in my life. You'll have different limits of what you can and can't control. But I wonder if you thought about this. That question still applies even though you are more physically proximate. How have you been thinking about distinguishing between what's within your control and what's outside your control?

Mason Meninga (59:48)

Yeah, I mean, obviously there's a lot of things that are outside of My control, like, I can't affect. I can't really do much in terms of, like, what a lawmaker could do around, hey, let's enact an act right now that will change the course of, like, I can't do anything like that. Certainly there are people out there that really feel passionate about, like, calling their lawmakers to encourage them. And if you're that kind of person, like, more power to you, please do that. But there are a lot of small things. Like, I've been thinking about this, too, because a lot of, like I said before, a lot of my friends from around the country are asking, like, what can we do? I think a lot of people are thinking, like, what can we do to help Minneapolis right now? But what I've been trying to, like, encourage them to think is whether ICE is in your own community or not. Like, there are a lot of people who are hurting, and there's certainly a lot of people who are scared right now. And what I've been encouraged by in Minneapolis is there's small ways that people have been showing up to help their neighbors. Again, regardless of what you think about ice, where you're at politically on that, like, at the end of the day, we gotta recognize, like, there's a lot of people who are scared. Like, there's a lot of kids are not going to school right now in person. There are a lot of people who aren't able to go to work right now simply because they're scared. And again, regardless of where you're at, like, about how you think about ice, like, that's just the reality. And if that's the case, like, there are a lot of people who are scared who aren't able to go get groceries. There are a lot of parents out there who aren't able to take their kid to school. So what's been really cool to watch is, like, even if there's, like, let's say there's, you know, the typical soccer mom that maybe wouldn't feel super comfortable, like, standing in front of a ICE vehicle or even, like, go and document a nice vehicle. Like, maybe there's a person that, like, doesn't feel super great about doing that, but, like, maybe they know their neighbor, like, that neighbor is not going to be able to take their kid to school because they're too scared. Like, then you can, like, take their kid to school. Like, there's just been, like, small things like that that I've seen that have been really, really cool. Or if, like, you know, like, hey, my neighbor needs some groceries right now and they're just like, they're, they're just really struggling to be able to do that. And so there's just been really small things like that that I've really seen that have been really, really, really cool. So, yeah, if you feel really passionate about, like, hey, I really want to document what's happening, or I really want to do other sort of, like, really active, resistant work when there's a raid happening, like, all the more power to you. But if you don't feel super comfortable doing that, like, there are really small things as well. Just like tap into your community, see what your community needs.

Daniel (62:08)

Right now you're getting at the sort of next idea, which for me kind of comes after that clarification of what I can and can't do. So I don't want to be trying to do things that I can't do that will just. Nobody wins and I'll just end up frustrated. Right, right. The next step is, and again, I'm drawn on existential psychology here, is to develop our purpose through values based action. So you do have to do a little translation here. Right. Because I'm not there and there's a bunch of things that I can't do. I can't change federal enforcement policy. But what I can do is I can identify, oh, why is this making me so upset? What is the value that is so important to me that I think is being violated here? And that's where I'm getting all this fire. So I recognized maybe during the first Trump election cycle, 2015, 2016, that like, refugees were, for whatever reason for me, kind of like where it all meets, that, like, refugee policy is kind of like. It hits me for some reason, personally, I don't, I don't have a refugee background. We didn't, my family didn't work with refugees. But something about it, like, kind of clarifies all the issues in one place. It's like the tip of the spear for me psychologically. And so what I have decided to do for now is I'm meeting with the local world relief director in our county who work with, you know, replacing refugees and helping them out, get used to resettling and getting used to life in the States. And I'm just gonna ask him what they need that I can provide. And then the fact that I'm a licensed therapist means it'll probably be something along those lines, because that's probably the most valuable thing that I have to offer. But in the past, I have, like, done like, driving old folks to medical and groceries and stuff like that, like medical appointments. And I know that there are similar needs for organizations that work with refugees and other immigrant communities. But the idea is that like, you know, you can identify. Oh, so I really care about the dignity of every person in our country. Okay, then you could think, all right, well what's going on locally that is working towards upholding that dignity that I could be involved in. So it's like you sort of, you take the anger and the pain and that felt experience of dislocation and you try and go, okay, what's on the flip side of that coin? It's going to be a value. And then you identify the value and you think, all right, well what's going on that I could do that is with that value. And now, you know, like, yeah, you're working with the ACLU or you're doing some informed advocacy work or you're, you know, whatever it is, but you sort of learn something about yourself in terms of values and then you pick an action that supports those values. And actually if everybody did that instead of just doom scrolling, that would just be so much more effective. Because I do think that something about everything being national and on our phones makes us feel actually more connected to national politics than we can actually be. We can do a lot more locally than nationally, but that's not where we get our information and how we, you know, do all that stuff.

Mason Meninga (65:43)

Yeah, I totally agree. I've definitely noticed that within myself. Even like when Minneapolis is not in the national news, I've recognized the fact that I feel like more nationally connected to like what politics are happening rather than like what, what's the local thing happening. But yeah, like, I appreciate like bringing up that, that identifying like what do you value? And then, and then from there identify what sort of things can I do that will help me tap into living out that value? And that was like something that actually happened this weekend. There was this Christian nationalist guy that came into Minneapolis, you know, made a lot of news. I'm. I'm sure you've seen it, Dan, but this Christian nationalist guy that was organizing this rally that was going to be like anti, an anti Muslim, anti Islam rally. And there was a counter protest that was organized. But what's interesting is there was a lot of sort of hesitation on whether or not there should have been a counter protest. And so because of that, there were a lot of people. In fact, I'm aware that there were a lot of liberal progressive clergy that were told, do not go to this counter protest. What's interesting though, is as much as I sort of saw the pros and cons of whether or not there should have been counter protest, at the end of the day, I recognize. And this is sort of what you were talking about is I recognize a value that I have was I'm a Christian who grew up at least adjacent to Christian nationalism, growing up in that world. And I know how to speak to that perspective in a way that I thought I had something to contribute to this counter protest if I encountered some of these people. And that did happen. You know, there's the video of the guy getting the leader of this group getting chased out or whatever. He goes into this hotel, or he ended up going off, and then they chased some other people off into the hotel. So I'm walking with this group of people, counter protesters, and they eventually get, you know, these. These Christian nationalists run into this hotel. But I've got this little sign that says something like, jesus loves our Muslim neighbors. And I am wearing my clergy collar, and these people come up to me, and they were like, are you a Christian? And I said, yes, and they were like, we're Christians for Christian nationalism, and they wanted to talk to me. So we talked for a little bit, and then some of the other counter protesters decided to kind of get in their faces and everything. But. But we were having this conversation, and, you know, certainly it went the way that you would imagine every con on Twitter would happen with Christian nationalists. But at the very least, I was doing my best to just like, I'm gonna be calm. I'm gonna listen to what they're saying, and then I'm gonna respond with what I believe to be truthful and loving. But the reason why I bring that up is, like, that was a value. Even though there was a lot of debate whether or not someone like me should have been to this counter protest, I had this value that, hey, I have something uniquely to contribute to this, that I would imagine most of the other counter protesters at this would not have been able to. They likely don't have that gift to be able to speak into the specific Christian nationalism element of this guy's.

Daniel (68:39)

They don't speak the vocabulary.

Mason Meninga (68:41)

Yeah, yeah, they don't speak the vocabulary, and they don't understand it in a way that I do.

Daniel (68:46)

Yeah, I like that. I. I'm kind of saddened that the people that you were with were not able to sort of let that go the way it should have gone and probably disrupted it. And, you know, that's. That's always a possibility. I have one more concept from existential psych that I think is relevant here. I want to hit before we wrap up, which is distinguishing between natural and healthy anxiety and sort of pathological anxiety. So I think a lot of people are feeling anxiety about this situation, myself included. And in existential psych, there's a fun way to sort of distinguish. There's a lot of ways to distinguish between healthy and unhealthy anxiety. But one of their favorite ways to talk about it is that healthy and natural anxiety, which is on this view just the natural consequence of being a human being with a big old brain and being able to sort of think about things more than other animals can, that leads naturally to anxiety. We think about our own death, we can think about the downstream effects of our actions. We feel guilty about that. All kinds of stuff.

Mason Meninga (69:52)

That's called the nervous system for a reason.

Daniel (69:54)

Yeah, exactly. Oh, shout out to Sarah Billups at her wonderful book title, Nervous Systems. That's a great one. So the idea is that one way to think about this is if your anxiety is sort of turning into an internal cycle where you're kind of just folding back in on yourself and. And you are ruminating. And the sort of. The final product of this, the final result of this is that because of your anxiety, your world has to get smaller for you to feel okay. You need fewer inputs, you can do fewer things, you can entertain fewer concepts and perspectives, you can go fewer places, you can see fewer people and spend less time with them. That's an indication that the anxiety is worth treating, and it's treating with therapy or something like that. Healthy anxiety is anxiety that opens up the world more wide, that invites us to respond to it in a way that actually expands our life. So a very simple example would be like, oh, shit, I have a paper due to in two days and I haven't even started on it. Well, I feel anxious about that. But that's like a good kind of anxiety. That's like a fire in my belly that makes me go work on my paper. And ideally, you know, in the perfect world, that paper would be something I care about. And it expands my view on some topic that sort of, you know, expands my horizons a little bit In a situation like this. If I can respond to that healthy anxiety like, things are bad, things are bad in Minnesota right now. And that ought to provoke anxiety and sadness in us. So if I can use that to. Okay, I'm really feeling shitty about this. Okay, I did my values search, okay, I found an option for me locally that I can. An action I can take. Right. I have probably just expanded my world. I have met new people. They are like minded. They are people I didn't know before. As I enter, I start working with some organization or some congregation or whatever. I'm like, I'm moving out further into the world and I use that anxiety as a motivator to go, shit is broken, what can I do? Where am I being invited to go next? And it's not always obvious to us when our anxiety is something that we should clinically get it reduced. And I like that as a rule of thumb that I just feel like is especially applicable in a situation like this if all I'm doing is going further online and just scrolling and scrolling and maybe I've got a couple friends and we share stories with each other and we're, you know, we're just getting more and more kind of only within ourselves. And like I can talk less and less to other people who don't agree. Like that's my world getting smaller. And what are the chances that I'm making the world better by retreating from it? They're very low. Yeah. What do you think about that as a sort of a rule of thumb?

Mason Meninga (73:12)

Oh, I think you're absolutely spot on. It reminds me a lot of, you know, there's the type of anger that can consume you, right. But then there's the kind of anger where the source of the anger is coming actually from hope. The hope that the world can be better. The world's not as it should be, but it can be better. And you're angry that it isn't as it should be right now. And so that's the kind of anger I love to see. But like you said, like, there's the anxiety that probably should be treated just in the same way that there's the kind of anger that should be treated. But there is a type of anger, there's a type of anxiety that really I think reveals the fact that there's hope in that person that the world could be better.

Daniel (73:50)

Yeah, well, that's probably a good place to end. So, yeah, I don't. I thought there was a site called volunteer.org that apparently is not up anymore and I could just be getting the website wrong. It could be that it's volunteer.gov. if you just Google volunteer, there will probably in the United States, Canada, Australia, uk, all the countries where people listen to this podcast, if you just Google local volunteer opportunities, your city or similar probably has some sort of a directory and you can then sort of peruse that based on those Values that you've identified, which, by the way, journaling can be helpful. Also, talking with other people can be helpful for sort of like discerning what would we call that value? What might we do about this? Like, find a buddy or two who's feeling the same way and like maybe start this kind of a conversation and find something to do. And maybe it's not volunteering, maybe it is, you already know. Maybe you're already connected to a group that's doing some good work and you just need a little kick in the pants. Maybe this anxiety that's being brought about by these sad events in Minnesota can be the catalyst for you starting something new that actually changes your life and other people's lives for the better. That's the sort of hopeful long term outcome here that I think is not only possible. I sort of think that's how change usually happens. Really shitty stuff happens and a group of people kind of wake up and they make changes. Like, that's generally how it goes. This isn't even like a weird way for things to get better. I think this is a very normal way, a standard, maybe even the default way that things ultimately get better is through things being bad and then that clarifying things for people.

Mason Meninga (75:35)

Yep, absolutely. And like you said, there's lots of different ways to do that. There's lots of ways to get involved right now when it comes to helping our immigrant neighbors, our refugee neighbors. But even if that's not the particular thing, your community that really needs a lot of help, maybe there's something else. There's so many different ways. And at the end of the day, you know, for me as a Christian, I want to bring or I want to help. I want to be one of the many people that helps bring the kingdom of God here on earth as it is in heaven. And so, yeah, there's lots of ways that we can do that.

Daniel (76:04)

Actually, just last thing, that's a really good point because in fact, maybe like, yeah, I'm going to the refugee thing. Maybe a bunch of people are going to take that route right now because that's in the news. But like for instance, we mentioned. Oh, maybe the value for me is like human dignity. That's actually something I feel so strongly about. Well, like that idea of like driving senior citizens to medical appointments and like dignifying them. Like, maybe that's the local need that gets at human dignity. That has nothing to do with immigration. But it's a need and it is a value you care about. So it can actually sort of see splinter it out into, like, other unrelated areas that are not, like, right now getting a bunch of attention and funding, which I know is always a problem when this kind of stuff is tied to news events and stuff like that.

Mason Meninga (76:54)

Yep, exactly.

Daniel (76:55)

All right. Well, Mason, we will I assume we'll have you back in the next two months or so for another religion on the news. This was a honestly, really great, enjoyable, you know, sometimes hard, sad conversation about recent news, which is quite religion. Religion focused in your neck of the woods. So thanks, man. Keep it up. Appreciate it.

Mason Meninga (77:19)

Yeah, thanks for letting me chat.

Daniel (77:21)

And if people want more raw, unfiltered takes, they can always listen to your podcast, People's Theology.

Mason Meninga (77:27)

That's right. That's right.

Daniel (77:30)

All right. Peace, man. Sam.