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Healthy vs. Unhealthy Anxiety: Anxious Times, Part 1 (#385) - Religion on the Mind | Wave AI Podcast Notes

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Healthy vs. Unhealthy Anxiety: Anxious Times, Part 1 (#385)

Religion on the Mind

Mon Mar 09 2026

Summary

Religion on the Mind – Episode #385

Anxious Times (Part 1): Healthy vs. Unhealthy Anxiety

Host: Dr. Dan Koch
Guest: Kristin Tiedman
Date: March 9, 2026

Episode Overview

In the first installment of the “Anxious Times” miniseries, Dr. Dan Koch—licensed therapist and psychology of religion researcher—teams up with friend and collaborator Kristin Tiedman to unpack anxiety through the lens of existential psychology. Together, they explore the difference between healthy and unhealthy anxiety, applying the insights of existential thinkers to both private experiences (like religious transition and illness) and broader sociopolitical upheaval. The conversation blends personal anecdotes, clinical wisdom, and philosophical context, all delivered with warmth and approachable humor.

Main Themes & Purpose

Apply existential psychology concepts to periods of increased anxiety—personally, socially, and religiously.
Normalize anxiety as a natural, sometimes helpful response, while discerning when it becomes harmful or pathological.
Provide frameworks and practical tools for listeners to evaluate and manage their own anxious states.
Connect psychological theory to lived experiences, especially in contexts of religious change.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Stage: “Anxious Times” in Context

The series is designed to offer practical applications of existential psychology and existentialist philosophy to periods of heightened anxiety (sociopolitical, personal, or spiritual) ([00:15]).
Dan highlights that anxiety has been on the rise in the U.S., particularly since 2016, but points out America has faced such tides many times in its history.
Personal and private anxious times, such as religious transitions, health crises, and new parenting, are equally relevant ([01:45]).

“The main goal... is to take specific ideas from the worlds of existential psychology... that have practical application to human beings living through periods of high anxiety, which we’re calling anxious times.” — Dan Koch [01:00]

Personal Reflections on Anxiety

Kristin shares her current “triple crown” of anxiety: new parenthood, return of MS symptoms, and ongoing religious transition ([02:49]).
Both hosts joke candidly about their health-related anxieties, e.g., Kristin’s colonoscopy story and Dan’s history of panic disorder—highlighting the mind-body connection ([08:31]).

“I am fairly convinced it was psychosomatic... I was having major digestive issues, and I didn’t know that psychosomatic... that was a thing.” — Kristin Tiedman [10:05]

Core Takeaways (Dan’s Three Main Points)

1. Some anxiety is not only normal, but healthy:

It is an authentic response to difficult situations and can be a catalyst to fuller living ([06:20], [07:11]). 2. Anxiety can become pathological:
When it closes us in, makes our world smaller, or cuts us off from life ([06:56], [07:11]). 3. Biology of anxiety:
Unhelpful, anxious thoughts are often tied to high physical/emotional arousal.
Helpful anxiety most often happens when distress is manageable ([07:11]).

“Healthy anxiety can and does spur us on toward living a more full life.” — Dan Koch [06:37]

The Body and Anxiety

The mind and body are inseparable; all psychological experience emerges from our brains—part of our biology.
A key therapeutic practice: checking in with one’s internal state using Subjective Units of Distress (SUDs), e.g., rating distress from 1–10 ([11:24], [14:07]).
This self-check fosters self-knowledge and creates space for insight ([14:07]).

“Just the act of checking in on oneself... can be a useful skill to build up, especially for people who have a hard time identifying that.” — Dan Koch [11:24]

Mood-Congruent Thinking

Our current mood heavily shades our thoughts; when highly anxious, calm or grateful thoughts don’t “stick” ([14:41]).
Emotional change lags behind cognitive change; techniques like gratitude can help, but are typically only marginally effective in the moment ([17:17]).
Dan explains the limits of “quick fixes” and emphasizes deeper, longer-term existential work ([17:17], [19:20]).

“Generally, emotional change tends to lag behind cognitive skill-building... It’s a long game.” — Dan Koch and Kristin Tiedman [19:20]

Practical Tips for Extreme Distress

Dan introduces the “TIPP” skills from Dialectical Behavior Therapy:
- Temperature (change body temp, e.g., cold shower)
- Intense exercise
- Paced breathing
- Paired muscle relaxation
  ([27:55])
“These are things you can do right now... to help get you down.” — Dan Koch [27:55]
TIPP is considered “bottom-up;” start with the body to affect the mind ([30:05]).

Religion, Anxiety, and Spiritual Conviction

Many raised in high-control religious environments learn to interpret anxiety as the Holy Spirit’s conviction or spiritual danger ([33:37]).
This interpretation can reinforce anxiety spirals; communities may reinforce that interpretation, preventing alternative, potentially healthier understandings ([33:37], [37:25]).

“Being at an 8 or a 9 can instantly produce a specific kind of catastrophic thought, like 'God is punishing me' or 'I’m backsliding.'” — Dan Koch [33:37]
Kristin recalls childhood church anxiety and being physically affected by religious education ([37:41]).

Existential Psychology: Context over Symptom

Post-WWII, psychologists and philosophers developed existential psychology in response to “reasonable” anxiety, despair, and meaning crises ([39:38]).
Focus is on understanding suffering in context, treating anxiety as a potential signpost toward authentic living, not just a “symptom” to eliminate ([41:00]).
Key thinkers: Karl Jaspers, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Rollo May.

“We respond to anxiety with responsibility... identifying what we value in the world and turning that into purposeful action.” — Dan Koch [41:00]

Healthy vs. Pathological Anxiety

Healthy Anxiety:

Is natural, rooted in our consciousness of limitation and mortality.
Drives creativity and engagement with life.
Existential quote:

"...the creative interchange of human personality rests upon the fact that we know we're going to die... our knowledge... gives us a normal anxiety that says to us, make the most of these years you are alive.” — Rollo May [49:32]
Anxiety is a clue or invitation for our world to get bigger.

Pathological Anxiety:

Makes our world smaller, closes us off, leads to excessive rumination and withdrawal.
Clinical “cognitive distortions”: all-or-nothing thinking, catastrophizing, fortune telling ([60:37]).
Examples: feeling that every anxiety spike must be a sign of guilt or doom; refusing to engage with life due to “what ifs” ([65:37]), e.g., not having children out of fear for the future.

Applied Examples

Day-to-day: Sunday night anxiety before work—do you need CBT, or does this mean a new job? Anxiety is sometimes a clue for change ([55:03]).
Religious context: Anxiety about beliefs or morality can be a clue that you need to explore new ways of thinking or a new community ([56:46]).
Sociopolitical: Healthy anxiety may drive activism, creative response; unhealthy anxiety may induce powerlessness or nihilism ([58:50], [62:27]).

“Healthy anxiety is an invitation... to open up, to ask more questions, to try things, to look more closely.” — Dan Koch [58:50]

Internet Culture & Catastrophizing

Social media algorithms are not designed for clarity, but to maximize engagement—often amplifying catastrophizing and negative emotions ([74:35]).
The rise of online spaces may fuel cultural habits of anxiety, overreaction, and hopelessness.

“The algorithms are not built for clarity and aligning with reality... negative emotion, catastrophe, fear, anxiety... are kind of natural engines [of online engagement].” — Dan Koch [74:35]

Closing Framework & Takeaways

Revisited Takeaways ([77:10]):

Some anxiety is normal—and potentially healthy.
Pathological anxiety closes us in, making our worlds smaller.
Helpful anxious thoughts happen when distress is present, but manageable—not when you’re overwhelmed (8/10+).

“We’re not aiming for zero. We’re aiming for appropriate anxiety that spurs us on to wider and better lives.” — Dan Koch [78:38]

Practical Steps & Resources

If your anxiety is haunting or paralyzing:
- Therapy: Find support, work through unhealthy anxiety.
- Self-help books: “The Feeling Good Handbook” (David Burns), “Retrain Your Brain” (Seth Gillihan), “It’s On Me” (Sarah Kubrick).
- Online resources: Beck Institute (beckinstitute.org).
- Coaching: Dan offers existential psychology-based coaching; email for more info.
- When highly distressed (8–10), avoid making big life decisions; ground yourself before acting ([25:12]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“The pressure to not be stressed makes me stressed.” — Kristin Tiedman [03:40]
“You could say there's a natural, organic distress response that is valuable and a kind of bad, pathological, unhelpful one that is not.” — Dan Koch [05:23]
“Mood-congruent thinking means, in general, our thoughts align with our current mood... If you’re up at an 8 or a 9 out of 10, calm thoughts are not going to feel like they're sticking.” — Dan Koch [14:41]
“Don’t make impactful decisions when you’re feeling really dysregulated, highly anxious. Avoiding making those decisions will minimize later regrets.” — Dan Koch [25:12]
“We want to understand the psychological suffering that our clients are experiencing in context, because sometimes the context is [that] it makes perfect sense... let’s use it.” — Dan Koch [41:00]
“We are conscious of our own selves, our own tasks, and also we know we’re going to die... our knowledge of our death is what gives us a normal anxiety that says to us, make the most of these years you are alive.” — Rollo May [49:32]
“Healthy anxiety invites us to bigger and more full life. Unhealthy anxiety closes us in on ourselves.” — Dan Koch [63:54]
“Everything is always keep changing... [Saunders] encourages his students to remember to document this and continue being creative, even if it might be challenging, which is, I think, the call.” — Kristin Tiedman [64:31]
“The algorithms are not built for clarity and aligning with reality... negative emotion, catastrophe, fear, anxiety, these things... are kind of natural engines of doing more [online].” — Dan Koch [74:35]

Timestamps for Key Segments

Intro & series overview: [00:15]–[04:58]
Kristin’s personal “triple crown” of anxiety: [02:49]–[04:58]
Core takeaways (Dan’s 3 points): [05:08]–[07:10]
Checking in with your distress: [11:12]–[14:07]
Mood congruent thinking & gratitude “fixes”: [14:41]–[19:20]
TIPP skills for distress: [27:55]–[30:20]
Religion, anxiety, and conviction: [33:37]–[37:25]
Existential psychology context: [39:38]–[46:17]
Rollo May clip on anxiety & creativity: [49:32]
Healthy vs. pathological anxiety: [55:03]–[63:54]
Social media & catastrophizing: [74:35]
Closing summary and practical resources: [77:10]–[83:46]

Tone and Style

Warm, conversational, candid, and gently irreverent (with “a little bit of cussing” as advertised). Dan and Kristin seamlessly blend clinical expertise, philosophical depth, humor, and vulnerable personal storytelling—inviting listeners into a nuanced, empowering inquiry about anxiety.

For Next Time...

Episode 2 will explore “boundary situations”—those moments when inherited systems of meaning collapse and deeper forms of anxiety emerge.

Contact: dan@religiononthemind.com
Links:

[Feeling Good Handbook – David Burns]
[Retrain Your Brain – Seth Gillihan]
Beck Institute CBT Resources
[It’s On Me – Dr. Sarah Kubrick (book)]

Summary prepared for listeners by AI podcast summarizer – Religion on the Mind, 2026

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Transcript

Dr. Dan Koch (0:00)

I saw this app.

Kristin Tiedman (0:01)

I got a hit.

Commercial Narrator (0:02)

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Kristin Tiedman (0:10)

Wow.

Commercial Narrator (0:10)

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Dr. Dan Koch (0:15)

Welcome back, everybody, to Religion on the Mind and more specifically to this miniseries we are calling anxious times. I'm Dr. Dan Koch, licensed therapist and psychology of religion researcher, and I'll be joined in these episodes by a longtime friend of the POD and collaborator, Kristin Tiedman. For each Anxious Times episode, we're going to be highlighting one or more specific concepts from existential psychology and practically applying them to living through unsettling periods like the present moment. This first set will include five or six episodes and we plan to return for more later on, but possibly in the fall. Let's dive in. So this is the first installment of an ongoing series and the main goal of these episodes is to take specific ideas from the worlds of existential psychology, maybe sometimes existentialism as a philosophy that have practical application to human beings living through periods of high anxiety, which we're calling anxious times. And when we say anxious times, we are referring to multiple scenarios. The first and most obvious probably is sociopolitics, which in recent US History seems to be ratcheting up in terms of overall anxiety, I'd say especially since 2016, Trump's first term. But of course, the United States has gone through periods of high anxiety in the past. The Civil War, the World Wars, Vietnam War, civil rights movement, recession of the 70s, you know, you can name them. Most of my therapy and coaching clients deal with issues related to religious change. And when they come to work with me, they are also generally living through a more private anxious time. When old paradigms aren't working, relationships might be strained. Meaning and direction are generally less clear than before that, religious change. And of course, like individual anxious periods can occur for all manner of reasons. Transition, upheaval, relationship issues, parenting stresses. Kristen, you are living through your own. I was trying to think, should I call it a hat trick or a triple crown? You've got a little, you got a little three part anxious time going on right now, right?

Kristin Tiedman (2:49)

Dr. Dan Koch (33:37)

So I want to, I want to make the first kind of specific connection here to religious change, which is something that I mentioned is going to be a part of this and in this instance around sort of bodily activation. A lot of listeners, a lot of clients of mine were raised in sort of high control or fear based religious environments. And sometimes in those environments you get taught either quite explicitly or at least heavily implicitly, that anxiety is actually the conviction of the Holy Spirit. And I'll say I was not raised in a particularly high control or fear based version of evangelical Christianity. I was raised in a more moderate version, but because of my anxiety disorder, undiagnosed at the time, as like a teenager, I totally bought this every time I would wake up in the morning after any kind of romantic dalliance, which might mean, like I told a girl, I thought she was cute and she thought I was cute, next morning, racked with anxiety, interpreted as the convicting guilt of the Holy Spirit. Okay, so this can Be really common that you would say, well, that's the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Or maybe you're taught that to feel in distress means you're in spiritual danger, that there's some kind of spiritual warfare going on, and that's your clue. So if that's your past, if that's your story, then being at an 8 or a 9 can instantly produce a specific kind of catastrophic thought, like God is punishing me or I'm backsliding or I'm in spiritual danger. If you get down to a 3 or a 4 out of 10, those same beliefs are gonna feel less true. They're not gonna feel as grippy. I wonder if this is kind of what you were getting at with that Christian book you read, that that was sort of a way of saying these moments of high internal clarity, that's actually the voice of the Lord. And I guess I'm saying, I'm arguing for the opposite, that you don't wanna treat them that way. But if your community is consistent enough on these teachings, on this approach, then even when you yourself, your body has calmed down, if you go to anybody in your community looking for another interpretation other than that's the conviction of the Holy Spirit, that means there's spiritual warfare going on. You're not going to get it. Because the people in your community are all in agreement that that's really what it is. And then your. That anxious cycle and the interpretation of that feeling of anxiety has been reinforced by your group. My own anxiety especially was around End Times teachings. You know, Antichrist, the Rapture, Jesus is coming back. And it took eight years from my initial traumatic experience at age 11. It wasn't until I was 19 that I actually read a book by a serious Christian thinker that proposed an alternative to those specific views about the End times and the Antichrist, the Rapture, which are in like the Left behind books and movies. I didn't even know. So I went to people probably during those years. I don't have a ton of specific memories about this, but if I had, I calm down and then I go to a teacher and I say, is this really true? They would go, yeah, Dan, that's true. So then it took a long time till I even had anything else to kind of crawl out of that.

Dr. Dan Koch (39:38)

Well, that's kind of a perfect bridge into what I want to do next, which is just to briefly define existential psychology. It's not a widely understood concept, but that is kind of getting at what you're asking there. So to contrast it, we could say there's a kind of very. This is a bit of a strawman, but a very present focused. It's all about reduction of symptoms. It's just about having no anxiety, no depression. Just like, moment to moment, experiencing a calm life or whatever. Like, that's. There are very few therapists that. That's truly what they want to do for their clients. But, like, so it's a little straw man, but that is like an overall approach against which existential therapy and psychology would really stand in contrast. Right. So it's not about just symptom reduction. This form of psychology emerged after World War II, right. And really becomes a thing kind of after the Holocaust. News comes out, and philosophers and psychologists and clinicians are really grappling with anxiety, despair. A lot of this despair seems like quite reasonable given what just happened. You know, meaning crises, people losing their sense of. Of the meaning of life. That, like, these are real. These are like sensible responses to the limits of human life. Like death, our freedom to make choices. So people are free to make choices. And Germany chose this, you know, for instance, guilt, uncertainty. We're gonna. Maybe we should treat these as like signposts towards truth, not like something to just be gotten rid of. So, you know, big thinkers, early thinkers, are like Karl Jaspers and Soren Kierkegaard and sometimes Nietzsche. And then they bring in people like Rolo May, who we're gonna hear from a little bit later. It emphasizes that we should understand the psychological suffering that our clients are experiencing in context. Because sometimes the context is gonna say, that makes perfect sense. We don't need to get rid of that. Let's use it. And so we respond to anxiety with responsibility. We're taking responsibility for our own lives. We are identifying what we value in the world, and we are turning that in to purposeful action. And we're doing that's sort of like a. It's like a offense versus defense. So we're like, going on offense and just playing defense would be like, let's just eliminate distress. So do you see how that's like. Do I need to connect that more to what you were saying, or do you see the connection there?

Dr. Dan Koch (52:26)

It does. That'll probably come up in. In future episodes. But the idea is we are always doing this work within the context of recognizing the actual real limitations of the world we live in and of our particular life and self. So that kind of keeps it in check. So, yeah, you might have creativity to write a book. And in fact, just briefly, if you think I could write the best book ever on this subject, I will be world famous. Well, probably not. Also, the book's probably gonna suck, if that's what you try and do. Better to go, what could I write a book about, actually? What do I have real expertise and knowledge about or experience about limiting it to that and being realistic, that's going to be a better book. It's going to be less grandiose, but it's actually going to. It's going to actually reach people more effectively. And who knows, maybe eventually you build on that and you can write that. That bigger book. But there's a realism that is always going to be tied in. In realism is a good word to kind of. To get us back to this question of natural anxiety. So there's a logical consequence to this basic idea that anxiety comes about naturally when we are in situations that produce it. A lot of natural anxiety, because it is uncomfortable, will get unnecessarily pathologized. It will be turned into something bad, a mental disorder, some suffering we want to get rid of, and so let's just try and eliminate it. And existential psychologists would say that all of the anxiety being currently treated in therapy offices or over telehealth all over the world, some of that anxiety should not be resolved, but it should be listened to. It should be used as fuel to get shit done. And by the way, we are also. We're already doing this all the time, if I like, we had to prep for this episode and we had a time on the calendar when we were going to record that gave us A little bit of anxiety, especially if we were behind. If we were like, oh, I wanted to be more ready a day before. Right. So then it sort of spurred us on in a very ordinary way to get our prep work done. Right?

Dr. Dan Koch (66:04)

And yeah, it's like you could take that kind of tiger image and maybe twist it slightly to like, you're either riding the wave, like, if time and life are in flux always, if that is just a bare fact of the matter, then you could choose to ride the wave and get yourself a surfboard and figure out how you want to ride it. Or you could say, nope, I don't have to do that. I'm going to build a concrete platform where I can strap myself down and the movement of the waves won't affect me or whatever. Now, it still will. Right? Like, you can't stop the waves from crashing. You're just going to have salt water hitting your face all the time and getting in your nose. It's not going to be better. Right? But you could tell yourself, well, this is how I feel secure, or I'm never going to go to the beach anymore, or whatever. That analogy is breaking down. But I wanted to give a couple concrete examples, more wide examples of when anxiety might close us off from the world. So, because it's not always about sociopolitics, but these are some signs you're not able to spend as much time with your friends anymore, or you're withdrawing from your family or your kids, you're missing class or missing work. And instead you're like spending hours anxiously ruminating on various cyclical ideas. Maybe the anxiety is sort of looping inward where most of your thoughts actually are just ends up being about your own self. Why can't I do this? What's wrong with me? Over and over again. Maybe, like having increasing trouble handling uncertainty or ambiguity and constantly seeking reassurance from a person or a teacher or a book or whatever. Those are some sort of broad ways that, like, we might think about that with clients to apply it to the sort of sociopolitical times. You know, it's not fun to live in a moment like ours with, you know, let's just assume here that we would agree that temporarily there's an increase in sort of government tyranny, that certain rights are Being either ignored or at least somewhat ignored. Rules are being bent that increase sort of government power and not citizen power. So it's not a good situation, but it does not close off all our options for principled action. Some of us could protest. Some will get involved in voter registration for the midterms. Some will volunteer with local organizations that work on related issues. And who knows, like, maybe within a few years the current chaos results in new legislation that makes the country better for decades to come. However, if we give in to the smallness, to the nihilism, to the powerlessness, it's all over. Well, then that's gonna close off options. There's nothing to be done, right?

Dr. Dan Koch (79:26)

All that wasted ex lax and discomfort of the camera. Okay, so we will be talking more throughout future episodes about what to do. Do with the healthy anxiety and how, like, what are different ways of following that and allowing our worlds to open up. But I wanted to close with a couple practical ideas for the unhealthy anxiety, which, you know, I have. I experienced that regularly. Most people who end up in therapy have some version of that unhealthy anxiety and that's where they are. And the first idea is therapy. Of course you can work on the unhealthy anxiety in therapy. Therapy is designed for this. You don't want to, as I've, you know, if you find this stuff convincing, you don't want to use therapy to get rid of the healthy anxiety, you want to follow the healthy anxiety. But if you notice the stuff that's turning you in on yourself, becoming cyclical, cutting you off from the world, therapy is great. There are also for less money, there are some books that can be helpful. There are good sort of cognitive and similar books that can help you kind of get some of those wild thoughts more manageable. The Feeling Good Handbook by David Burns is something that helped me in my 20s. It's in multiple editions now. Retrain youn Brain by Seth Gillahan is another one that I sometimes use with clients today. There's also free resources at the Beck Institute. I think that's beckinstitute.org that is named after Aaron Beck, the founder of cognitive theory and cognitive behavioral therapy. His daughter runs it now, I think nephew third I still need nephthysm. I still need to read it. But I do know that Dr. Sarah Kubrick's book It's on Me is a popular level mix of memoir and existential psychology. She's an existential therapist that many therapists recommend to their clients. So I'm just putting an asterisk that I haven't read it yet. It's on my short list. But I've heard good things and I've listened to an interview with her and I so I would sort of co sign the general approach. And then finally, you know, I offer therapy and also psychology based and existential psychology based coaching. There's a limit there to working with that unhealthy pathological anxiety. As a coach in Washington state, I can't directly treat it, but there's a lot of stuff in coaching that can indirectly treat it. Especially kind of more of this opening up like taking that offensive approach with some of these existential ideas. I do a lot of that with coaching clients. So if you want some more clarification about that, you can email me and see if that would be a good fit. But those are some of my practical ideas for the unhealthy anxiety. Any last thoughts here, Kristen, before we