A (3:30)

Oh, well, chapter 10. That's where I had, in all caps, convicted. Convicted.

B (3:39)

Okay, good. I'm not the only one.

A (3:41)

I cannot even. I am obviously laughing as you're even talking about it. This is the chapter. I said, beau can't read this because he might feel justified in telling me to chill out sometimes.

B (3:56)

Are you saying that has your maternal love become defiled?

A (4:01)

Oh, well, no, this is the wife.

B (4:02)

Oh, this is before the wife. Yeah, the wife and Reginald trying to fix Reginald. Yeah, that's right. That's 10.

A (4:08)

One of my favorite lines is, naturally I had to dress well, which obviously, I mean, girl. Yes, you do. This is all right. Just to paint a little bit more of a picture of this wife. She's like, well, I had to entertain, and you have to entertain a certain way. And of course, my husband, whatever his name was, wants to go hang out with his friends. But I'm gonna have his friends to the house, of course. Well, of course, he couldn't hang out with that type of guy, so they didn't come around very much after a year or so. And then of course, at the end of the chapter, the husband has a mental breakdown. He, like, loses it, has a NER nervous breakdown. And I'm like, that's hilarious. Which, yes, I do think there's some misogyny. But at the same time, I think there's some themes that I've been seeing that I've creepily seen, eerily seen common ones on social media in the present day, where it's like, essentially this notion. I don't. Again, Dan, you know, people can live on totally different parts of the Internet and you have no idea that others aren't seeing what you're seeing. But. But there's stuff I've seen and even just like scrolling on. Like, you see posts from, like, the Cut or, I don't know, New York mag or whatever, where it's like, women feel like they have to train their husbands and then women quiet quitting their marriages and, like, all these things about how men aren't pulling their weight, essentially, which is, I get a few of

B (5:41)

those reels sent to me by my wife. We talk about it. I'm not throwing her under the bus. It is often Fodder for conversation.

A (5:50)

Yeah. Well, but then the other thing. I didn't realize this until more recently. There's like the. I mean this really gets into like heterosexual. This is very heterosexual, this whole conversation. Like heterosexual norms and heteropessimism, as I was told is the phrase.

B (6:07)

But there's hetero pessimism that it doesn't really work for most people kind of a thing.

A (6:11)

I mean like that there's just, it's so. I mean this is coming kind of from I think the gays. Cause sometimes they don't have these problems. I say that in an endearing way. The fact that they. It's like, oh well, like look at this hetero dynamic that's just kind of repeated.

B (6:28)

It's like between kind of middle of the bell curve men and middle of the bell curve women. Those dynamics can. Yeah, they're like, they're sort of. They are an ever flowing fount of artistic fodder. Right. You know, storytelling and all this stuff. Yeah.

A (6:45)

But there's. Well, okay, so there's algorithms working on both sides where women, once they get in this, this side of things, start to see more and more content about their husbands or partners. Like not, not doing enough, not measuring up kind of being like needing help, needing to. Yeah. Needing to be trained, like all these things. And then it's like it's essentially, it's. I think it's unhealthy and I'd be interested to hear maybe some of your thoughts on this. But on the other side, there's stuff about how. And some of this can go, I think in Christian realm, like complementarian, but in the general, like secular realm even, it's like, well, you're, you know, if your wife is nagging you, why does she need to do that? She needs to give you space. And then there's to the point where there's almost a. What is it called, like when someone. This is my hardest thing in life right now. Searching for words. Is it the Ms. Or is it the mom brain?

B (7:43)

Or is it the mom brain? Impossible to know.

A (7:46)

Yes. When radicalized people are essentially becoming radicalized in these veins where they're like. And there's something I even just saw on Substack where they blamed someone specifically, kind of an influencer that was radicalizing women towards divorce. Because it's like these men are not good enough and like all these things. And there's a component here, the last thing I'll say is there's that current dynamic in culture where men are trending more conservative and Women are trending more liberal. And, and that's also like there was

B (8:20)

especially younger men and younger men and women.

A (8:22)

Younger men and women. Yes.

B (8:23)

The longer you get, the more the polarization is increasing. Yeah.

A (8:26)

Yes. And there is an example. This one woman was like, you can't vote for Trump. If you voted for Trump, I'd divorce you, obviously. And the man kind of knew that, you know, he had to vote as she voted. I don't even know if he was thinking that way, but he couldn't even vote like independently. And it was this kind of. But like, that's the stakes of that. It's kind of very all or nothing thinking. So I guess the ways I was convicted is it's very my way or the highway. And she does this in a little bit of a retro, of course, 1940s way, the wife, where it's like, it's my duty. I had to entertain, I had to do these things. But I think now you see that in another sense there's a different sort of propriety and decorum in the 21st century. But it's, it's not duty as much as like, these things have to get done and even if I have a job, I'm gonna make sure they're getting done. And again, kind of looking at the. Oftentimes the man, again, this is broad brush, but it's like, oh, he's not pulling his weight. And the man. I said it was the last thing. But there is a book that I read in grad school a la Myron Penner called entitled where there are studies that in heteronormative sort of relationships, women do more housework. They do even way more. The only time it comes close to even is when a woman has a full time job and the man has no job, then that might be the only time when a man generally does at least about the same, maybe a little bit more housework. Otherwise always, always falling more to the woman.

B (10:07)

So first for the statistically average couple.

A (10:10)

Yeah, first statistic. Yes.

B (10:12)

But that's important because you don't only want to make decisions about your own individual life based on trends of average people. Because you are just you and your partner is just your partner. It's just the two of you. And so you will, you may or may not like. It's good to find where you see yourself in the aggregate data, the sort of statistical average and where you don't, because you can, of course, there are relationships where the husband is much more likely to do the housework, but it is statistically Significantly less common. Yeah.

A (10:47)

Yes. Yes.

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A (11:57)

I said a lot there.

B (11:58)

Yeah, I've got a few. I have responses to a few different things. Okay, so go ahead, go ahead. Well, let's start with that last bit. I'm finding the existential psychological approach really helpful with a lot of this stuff because one way that you can look at some of these ongoing conversations, and they would go back to the 40s or any time and place you could talk about them currently, is what are the real limitations of your actual life? And that tends to clarify this stuff in a way that the content producer can never clarify because they are speaking to everybody simultaneously. And some of the limitations in an individual's life are systemic limitations. There's like human givens, like you will die, you make some of your own meaning at least these are just true of everybody. There are only 24 hours in a day, you know, these kinds of limits. But then other limits are specific. So the woman in the story with the wife, with Reginald, she is telling herself that she has all of these duties and whatnot. She's like she's picking and choosing the societal norms in a self deceiving way that line up well with what she already wants to do anyway. But if she were to look at the actual limitations of her actual life, what she would find is that the man she married, Reginald, is not particularly well suited for a lot of the specifics that she has in mind. And actually like a sober look at Reginald, with some calm maturity on her part would have revealed something like Reginald needs a certain amount of time with the guys. And to connect it back to the influencer kind of content creation stuff, there are gonna be accounts from creators and thinkers and authors or whatever that say, effectively, men being with other men is toxic. It'll be an all or nothing kind of a claim. I'm not saying everybody says this, but you will come upon views like that. And surveys have found kind of an alarming number of women hold that kind of view, that women getting together with other women is good for society, but men getting together with other men has like a net negative effect on society.

A (14:39)

Menaces.

B (14:40)

Right. They're just up to no good. And that's in some of this ghost's kind of psychology. Right. And then one other thing. And then you can respond to whatever you want in that. I like that you bring in the algorithm because in some ways the algorithm is like the lizard on the ghost's shoulder. And I know that that lizard is supposed to represent specifically lust. I don't mean in that sense. I mean sort of in the way we think of a devil and an angel on the shoulder. Right. That like an algorithm is potentially a devil on our shoulder. It is telling us exactly what we want to hear in a way that is pretty silent. Right. Like, you know, we would have to open up someone else's social media accounts to notice how the algorithm has treated us differently. But of course, we don't tend to do that. We have our own login. There's privacy concerns, et cetera, et cetera. And algorithms, if you're not careful. Yeah, they're just going to tell you. They're going to tell you what you want to hear because that's what's in the interest of the company that has written the algorithm, because they know that that will keep you on the service. And so, yeah, that almost feels like it could maybe be an episode or two where we sort of. There's an idea for something to work on next. Like how an algorithm is like a devil on your shoulder.

A (15:58)

Okay. Well, this is something I almost like because I feel like I try to be so aware of technology. Like when I use ChatGPT. I've read so much about AI and all the things that it's doing that I try and be super, super aware of. This is programmed to do this, it's program. We've talked about this.

B (16:18)

Even you have a lot of metacognition about how this stuff all works.

A (16:22)

Exactly. But I started to see some of this content in the context of relationships. And I feel like for the first time my defenses were down in a Little bit. Because you feel understood in a way that I'm not. I'm one of the first people in a lot of my friend groups that is a mom and kind of in this phase. So I feel like, in terms of the relating. I am not always talking to people who are in the same stage. And to feel that you are understood is so powerful. And then, I mean, another concept that comes up, this almost hermeneutic access is granted through.

B (17:04)

Unpack that for us, that term.

A (17:05)

Okay, so interpretive access. So you could have something happening to you. And I'm sure this is how people feel. I mean, I'll just speak for myself. There's a component I know that I felt where it's like, oh, I just saw this video where the guy. You know, whether he's real or one of those fictionalized. You know, it's the same person playing two different parts is doing something. And I wouldn't have named it this, but that's what my partner's doing, you know, or that's what. Oh, I now know that this is this.

B (17:31)

Now, of course, being given language for it.

A (17:34)

Yes, Being given language, a term and like a concept where before it was just maybe instance or a pattern or something. You can't even articulate that well. But now at least you have this kind of working understanding that is very powerful. But I think I recognize how much more dangerous it is within the context of technology, cell phones. Because ultimately we are, by ourselves looking at a phone. We aren't talking to another person who's relaying their experience to us. And we're not saying, oh, your husband, my husband, or something. You know, not like, that's always good, but it's kind of like embodied. You're with the person. It's more specific. This is something where you're. Yes. It's just directly like, I knew it. I'm right. And there's no one to bounce that off of. And it's very disembodied. And the only person you're probably gonna bounce it off of is the person you're blaming, the person who's. Who's reminding you of why the video is right. Yeah. And then it's easy to just press that little send button. Here's what you're doing wrong, sweetie. And this is what it's called. And of course, you. This gets drawn out even more, and you get into this outrage arena where it's like, well, he must be a narcissist, or he must be this or that. And I'm not saying that's like all that it's saying in these videos. But I Do you see those things and it's like, it's. Of course, if you're saying how to recognize if someone has narcissistic tendencies or something like that, you're gonna be like, well, how will I know? I have to recognize, you know, or. And like. But it's the same thing about yourself.

B (19:07)

It activates. Speaking of last week and, you know, the limbic system, it activates that fight or flight fear that you're gonna be left. And so you need to look out for yourself kind of a thing. And in some cases, that's true. And by the way, getting language for something is also very often hugely helpful.

A (19:27)

Yes.

B (19:28)

Right. So it's sort of like if you could only ever get language that was actually accurate, then it'd be always good to get language for something. But sometimes you get language for it. So to speak in a way that actually doesn't line up with reality, and then that would be probably destabilizing and unhelpful.

A (19:46)

Yeah, yeah. Well, and this brings me up to one of my points, and I want to hear your thoughts on this. What we see with this wife ghost and their situation is a little bit of a Keeping up with the Jones. But is there a bit of a. Almost. I don't know how to exactly phrase this, but almost like an Instagramable, like, sort of therapy speak. Keeping up with the Jones in a way that's going on in our world today.

B (20:13)

You're saying today?

A (20:15)

Yeah, today, like knowing the right ways to talk about your. Your psychology, like the how. How there's kind of been this democratization or there's. There's pop psychology that's at play that is in kind of the. Just the zeitgeist now. And it's like, if you don't know how to talk about, you know, your trauma bonding or this or that, you're not in the know. There's like a lot of signaling there. Is that. Is that a bridge too far?

B (20:47)

Well, I think that it is. My take is yes and no. So I think, yes, there's a way in which it is seen as enlightenment. And so you can have a kind of. That's a little distinct from Keeping up with the Joneses. It's more elite versus non elite or something like that. The other thing is, I do think it's sort of subculture dependent. I think that I doubt that there are all that many men who actually feel like someone who can't talk about trauma bonding is really Deficient. I would guess there would be more women who would find that to be an actual deficiency. Again, average, like, you know, statistically average. So I think that some of the therapy speak stuff is kind of more female coded, femme coded, whatever, however you want to say that. But there are certainly, I'm sure there are certainly sort of men who see themselves as sort of therapeutically and psychologically enlightened and they would hold that against other people who can't meet them. There a kind of snobbery, you know, I guess. But my sense is just that that could probably happen with anything. Just if it becomes a defining, I mean off the top of my head, if it becomes a defining aspect of a group, then it will be used as an in group, out group signifier, you know, like eventually by somebody because we kind of crave those things.

A (22:21)

Yeah, I have a suspicion that that's a bit of what's going on.

B (22:24)

Yeah.

A (22:25)

In this day. I mean, I just, I don't know, maybe it is indicative of the circles and spaces online I find myself in, but. Yeah, I just feel like there's a kind of hyper. I mean like, yeah, I, you know, I'm trying to scroll less on all platforms in general. You've probably noticed I like no longer post anything at all. But it's like surprise you to say

B (22:48)

I have not noticed that at all.

A (22:50)

Wait, what?

B (22:52)

Dan, maybe, you know, you are a stallion, you are a mighty Steve. But I, but I am self focused on my own lizards, you know, my own stupid little projects.

A (23:02)

So, you know, it's quite all right. Anyway, well, to wrap up this wife, I do think, yeah, poor, the poor guy did need a break. Now again, this is where you're kind of hearing her story and in the context of the, of the book, you're kind of led to believe like, well, she was in hell and her husband was in heaven, so she was a little bit too overbearing, perhaps to the point of sin.

B (23:26)

Yeah.

A (23:27)

But I would say that's where I'm also like when I say convicted, I'm like, what the power of this book is, at least in my reading is like, let me at least think of areas where this could be me. This could be me being a little bit. Could I let a few things go? Could I be a little more relaxed? Do I, you know, do I need to get that upset about this dish this time every time? You know, and so too many like marriage phrases strike too close to home these days. But that's fine. That's what life's, Life's a highway,

B (24:06)

you're gonna ride it all night long or for eternity if CS Lewis is right. Okay, let's transition over to for patrons, and we're going to do some theology. We're going to talk some theology. So if you want to hear the rest of this conversation, as, as with the last two patreon.com Dan and Coke, that link is always in the notes, okay?