GGCH: Epstein Files & Hitler’s DNA (#362)

Summary

Religion on the Mind — Episode #362: GGCH: Epstein Files & Hitler’s DNA

Host: Dan Koch
Guests: Tony Jones, Josh Gilbert
Date: November 20, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Religion on the Mind is a classic “Generation Gap Culture Hour” (GGCH) featuring returning guests Tony Jones and Josh Gilbert. The central theme: contemporary anxieties, scandals, and misconceptions at the intersection of pop culture, politics, and genetics, including a lay-friendly deep dive into recently released files on Jeffrey Epstein and sensational news on Adolf Hitler’s DNA. True to GGCH form, the trio explores these topics through the generational experiences and attitudes of each co-host—with plenty of playful banter and candid irreverence.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter, Show Identity, and Generational Vibes

• [02:06–08:17]
  • Dan debuts a new podcast intro: “A conversation show about psychology, religion, and spirituality that values careful thinking and good faith engagement over self-satisfied tribalism.”
  • Tony questions Dan’s need to define the show by what it’s not, suggesting the intro should stick to the positive.

    Tony [03:33]: “Why say what you’re not? Just say what you are!”

  • Josh chimes in with meta-humor and “Gen Gap” takes:

    Josh [05:07]: “As a fairly negative or often negative person I find it as very distinctive for Dan to say that…”

  • Generation Gap Culture Hour is officially introduced. The “gap” is about 25 years (Tony–Josh), with Dan in the middle.

2. Meat Grinding & Pop Culture “Mind the Gap”

• [08:17–13:53]
  • Tony shares his “rise and grind” (literally: grinding pheasant and venison for sausage), sparking millennial/gen X/generation Z humor about what “grind” means.
  • Dan introduces “Mind of the Gap”: pop culture references that reveal generational divides.
    • Dan quizzes his co-hosts on a Billy Madison quote (“Lady, you’re scaring us”) that lands only for Dan, due to the tight age-bracket popularity of Adam Sandler’s early films.
    • The hosts discuss what Adam Sandler projects each generation remembers—a microcosm of how pop culture creates cohort-defining memories.

3. Main Topic Part 1: Hitler’s DNA and Genetics Ethics

• [13:53–22:09]
  • Dan explains the hot news: a piece of couch upholstery, allegedly from Hitler’s bunker, has been DNA tested and matches “a distant male line relative—a perfect match and incredibly rare.”

    Geneticist (clip) [15:34]: “You get a perfect match and it’s incredibly rare … so yes, we can be happy that this is the blood of Hitler.”

  • The group discusses the probability and evidence chain issues (i.e., are we sure it’s Hitler’s blood?), with Dan finding the DNA evidence compelling.
  • Sensational media reports focus on the “5–10% chance Hitler had a micropenis,” but the hosts quickly move beyond the tabloids.
  • Dan is fascinated by historical genome projects as hard, novel sources of information, setting up a broader discussion around genetics, ethics, and the “nature versus nurture” debate.

4. Science, Ethics, and the Illusions of Genetic Determinism

• [20:09–23:16]
  • Josh points out that “micropenis” is a symptom of a hormonal condition, not a standalone diagnosis. He’s interested in what other traits might be inferred.
  • Tony questions the value of learning about a famous person’s genome, doubting any genetic markers exist “for moral depravity.”

    Tony [21:33]: “I don’t … think there are genetic markers for moral depravity … why is it interesting that a super evil guy has genetics?”

  • Dan and Josh explore whether we can or should draw connections between genetic features and major historical events (“was it really that he wanted to commit mass genocide because of the size of his wiener?” — Josh [20:38], tongue-in-cheek).

5. Hitler’s Heritage and the Power (and Limits) of DNA Data

• [25:47–26:36]
  • Dan: The DNA analysis also disproves the notion that Hitler had Jewish heritage, a long-standing rumor about “sublimated self-hatred.”
  • Discussion on confidentiality, privacy risks, and the ethics of sequencing/declassifying historical (and family) genomes.
    • Tony highlights his and his wife’s decisions to pull their data from 23andMe after a company buyout.
    • Dan proposes that scholarly access can be provided without publicizing identities, “just for scholars to look at it.”

6. Main Topic Part 2: Epstein Files, Conspiracy Theories, and Political Motivations

• [28:04–36:24]
  • The Congressional push to release Epstein grand jury files becomes a jumping-off point for a discussion about the motivations behind the obsession with Epstein’s “black book.”
  • Tony frames the Republican drive to “expose elite pedophile rings” as rooted in QAnon and Pizzagate-style conspiracies.

    Tony [30:24]: “There is a Republican obsession with that … children are being slave-traded for elite pedophilia rings. … That’s what's behind the Republican push for this.”

  • Josh notes that for some, the files represent a broader public distrust—friends of his support Trump “because of something like the Epstein files; … it’s a huge unsolved mystery.” Josh questions whether simply releasing files can change legal outcomes.
  • The group strongly distinguishes documented sex trafficking from conspiracy versions.

    Dan [32:45]: “There is a conspiracy theory version … but the Epsteins files have more traction because they don’t require you to buy all that stuff.” Dan [33:38]: “You don’t have to be conspiratorial to want those people charged … it also stands in for: the richest people in this world do whatever the fuck they want and never pay for it.”

7. The Reality and Impact of Released Files

• [36:24–38:36]
  • Tony reiterates that unless the files contain video or direct evidence, “it’s all hearsay,” and that statutes of limitation will likely prevent prosecutions. Each party is wagering that “more people on the other side” will be implicated—a political game.

    Tony [36:57]: “It’s going to be freaking Al Capone’s vault … nothing sticks to Donald Trump.”

  • The hosts critique the true-crime and deconstruction podcast sphere for opportunistic coverage (“fighting for clicks and downloads … such a waste of time”).

---

Notable Quotes

• Tony Jones [03:33]: “Why say what you’re not? Just say what you are!”
• Dan Koch [04:53]: “You can’t have the opportunity without positivity.”
• Dan Koch (clip, re: Hitler’s DNA) [16:20]: “Seems legit … Either it’s Hitler or somebody’s lying, there’s not another option.”
• Tony Jones [21:33]: “I can’t imagine that there are genetic markers for moral depravity … why is it interesting that a super evil guy has genetics?”
• Josh Gilbert [20:38]: “Was it really that he wanted to commit mass genocide because of the size of his wiener? … That’s hilarious and a thought…”
• Dan Koch [33:38]: “It also is a stand-in for: the richest people in this world do whatever the fuck they want and never pay for it … we’re so close!”
• Tony Jones [36:57]: “It’s going to be fricking Al Capone’s vault, you know, nothing sticks to Donald Trump … it’s another distraction.”
• Josh Gilbert [36:24]: “Whoever has the Epstein files now … if that’s known information, wouldn’t he [Clinton] be charged already? What does releasing them do?”

---

Memorable Moments & Humor

• Rise and Grind: Tony literally grinds meat—Dan and Josh riff on generational interpretations of “rise and grind,” “wake and bake,” etc.
• Mind the Gap: The Billy Madison slapstick reference utterly fails with Josh and Tony—illustrates pop culture “age gating.”
• Micropenis Discourse: A recurring thread, used ironically to discuss the limits of biological explanations for evil.
• Dan’s Podcast Copy Edits: The group roasts Dan’s attempts at branding his show, giving real-time editorial notes (“it’s a conversation show about the Epstein files—other shows talk about it way too much, but we only talk about it the right amount!” [38:36])

---

Important Timestamps

• [02:06] — Show intro, discuss new branding
• [08:17] — Tony’s meat grinding and morning routines
• [09:44] — "Mind the Gap": Billy Madison reference falls flat
• [13:53] — Hitler’s DNA: news story background
• [15:34] — BBC geneticist explains evidence for Hitler’s DNA match
• [25:47] — DNA analysis disproving Jewish heritage rumors about Hitler
• [28:04] — Pivot to Epstein files, political conspiracy motivations
• [30:24] — Tony on QAnon, Pizzagate, and the Republican focus
• [32:45] — Dan distinguishes fact vs. conspiracy in sex trafficking discourse
• [36:24] — Josh/ Tony on limitations of what file releases can achieve legally
• [38:36] — Dan preps for patron-only segment, humorously adjusts show intro

---

Tone & Style

• Conversational, irreverent, often tongue-in-cheek
• Mixes serious critique with humor (micropenis jokes, self-roasting)
• Willing to challenge media narratives and pop culture hysteria
• Candid about the limitations of both scientific and political “reveals”

---

Summary Takeaway

A lively, skeptical, often comic dissection of how contemporary society mythologizes and politicizes genetic data and denied public records—from Hitler’s DNA to Epstein’s black book—filtered through three very different generational lenses. The hosts interrogate the utility, risks, and motivations behind such revelations, ultimately arguing for measured skepticism and a focus on what is genuinely significant, rather than what merely attracts headlines or clicks.

Transcript

[Dan Koch]

So good so good so good give.

[Nordstrom Rack Advertiser]

Big save big with rack friday deals at nordstrom rack for a limited time take an extra forty percent off red tag clearance for a total savings up to seventy five percent off save on gifts for everyone on your list from brands like vince cole haan sam edelman and more all sales final and restrictions apply the best stuff goes fast so bring your gift list and your wish list to your nearest nordstrom rack today.

[Coca Cola Advertiser]

Coca cola for the big for the small the short and the tall peacemakers risk takers for the optimists pessimists for long distance love for introverts and extroverts the thinkers and the doers for old friends and new coca cola for everyone pick up some coca cola at a store near you this episode is brought.

[Espolon Tequila Advertiser]

To you by espolontequila slow sticky snoozy they call these the dog days of summer but espolon they don't do boring welcome to the mark days espolontequila one hundred percent blue weber agave born to shake up your summer just add lime agave and a little attitude visit espolontequila dot com espolontequila forty percent alcohol volume eighty proof copyright twenty twenty campari america new york new york drink responsibly with.

[Home Depot Advertiser]

Black friday savings at the home depot you can get up to one thousand four hundred dollars off plus get free delivery on select appliances like lg america's most reliable line of appliances check out the newest lg refrigerator with new mini craft ice straight from the dispenser shop black friday savings on select lg appliances plus get free delivery now at the home depot free delivery on appliance purchases of dollar three hundred ninety six or more offer valid eleven five through twelve three us only see store online for.

[Dan Koch]

Welcome everybody to religion on the mind and josh and tony you will now bear witness to my rolling out of version one point zero of the new introductory text to religion on the mind okay so you can give me your unvarnished like i need to tell you tony to give it unvarnished feedback please actually tony could you add some varnish and josh your feedback unvarnished would be preferable thanks okay here's version one point zero welcome everybody to religion on the mind a conversation show about psychology religion and spirituality that values careful thinking and and good faith engagement over self satisfied tribalism i'm your host doctor dan koch licensed therapist and researcher da da da da da okay thoughts what was it.

[Tony Jones]

What'D you say about conversation it should be conversational cause that you're using as.

[Dan Koch]

An adjective all right well the big.

[Tony Jones]

Picture you're using it as an adjective.

[Dan Koch]

The big picture which is a very popular movie podcast calls themselves a conversation show so that's where i got it now maybe yeah that's two nouns you're.

[Tony Jones]

Just being like i'm a noun noun.

[Dan Koch]

You know what it's a six seven parasocial paramenopause show i'm just grabbing as many new webster okay tell me this.

[Tony Jones]

Why would why do you have to say why do you have to in your intro have implicit criticism of other shows like say why would you why do you have to say what you're not why say what you're not just.

[Dan Koch]

Say what you are i think that.

[Tony Jones]

No here's where you say tony that's.

[Dan Koch]

A good point it's a good tony that's a good question can i i'll say that that's a good question i'll give you that much i think it's useful i actually i don't think i'm firing any particular shots if you have a show in your mind that you think is committed to self what is it self satisfied tribalism that might say something about that show more than it says about my interest i'm telling you.

[Tony Jones]

That there's not a single podcast out there that would self identify as a self satisfying tribalistic no so you've created a straw man and saying i'm not that straw man.

[Dan Koch]

If i said a conversational show about psychology religion spirituality that values careful thinking and good faith engagement much more than other similar shows which themselves are all about self was it self congratulated i gotta get the self.

[Tony Jones]

Satisfied tribalism self satisfied tribalism just leave off the self satisfied tribalism i'm just saying that's in your intro why would there be any negativity in your intro.

[Dan Koch]

You can't have the opportunity without positivity.

[Josh Gilbert]

I that's funny you say that tony because as a as a fairly negative or often negative person i find it as very distinctive for dan to say that i don't care about anything you said until that last sentence personally and it doesn't distinguish you from any other show that would say we're the religions you know it's like it's distinctive the.

[Dan Koch]

Fact that i'm calling it out means look it means i will fight for you tony okay that's what that means i'm your man i'm your guy holding back the chaos okay no but i think that it's fine to call out the opposite of a value it can help to kind of clarify the positive thing of it and i do think that in this space in this digital media space as we've talked about before like all the algorithmic and other incentives of all these companies you know are not really toward truth or accuracy they they really make more money if the if everything is more tribal and so i don't know i think it's worth i'm just saying look yeah if if.

[Tony Jones]

You had to come up with a log line let's say or let's say you were writing a corollary would be like you're writing the back cover copy of on a book yeah what you would not do you might do it in the first draft but you would cut it out is let's tell you what this book is not this book is not a blah this book is not a blah what this book is is this you just don't do that.

[Dan Koch]

I'Ve read a lot of chapter ones and prefaces that did that chapter ones.

[Tony Jones]

Might do that but this isn't chapter.

[Dan Koch]

One oh you're saying on the marketing.

[Tony Jones]

Copy oh okay okay this is like your marketing copy or well this is what's on amazon every time someone clicks on that book they're like a a new understanding of religion psychology and blah blah blah by the world renowned doctor dan koch you know ooh let's oh.

[Dan Koch]

Yep let's put that part in world.

[Josh Gilbert]

Renowned but we can have tony's voice.

[Dan Koch]

Spliced in joy could you jot that down for the next marketing meeting i.

[Josh Gilbert]

Hope you're listening thanks joy didn't joy.

[Tony Jones]

Say she's never listened to ggch she's.

[Dan Koch]

Going to have to listen because next year we're going to have her on for or are we going to do it in maybe december maybe next month we haven't figured this out yet december or january i think will be an inaugural genderation gap culture hour where joy.

[Josh Gilbert]

Generation gap girly hour we're calling it.

[Dan Koch]

For for we're gonna we might bring her on occasionally get get her in there but i forgot to say this is a generation gap culture hour episode of course it's listed in the title there's about twenty five years between tony and josh with myself in the middle that's tony jones and producer josh gilbert we attempt to consider at least one issue through that lens of age and life experience each episode and we tend to have obviously as you can hear now a little more fun a little loose i'm coming off a very good breakfast burrito i'll tell you that right now my day has started pretty wonderfully so that's what we're doing that's what we're doing here and i thought it would be fun to throw that copy out there for you guys for the main purpose of getting tony to criticize me and it i succeeded well i.

[Josh Gilbert]

Just want to say guys it's nice to be with you i just you know i've had a nice morning i cracked a fresh can of diet coke i've been trying to drink less water recently and this is helping so good it's nice to be here tony how.

[Tony Jones]

Are you doing good i i got up early as usual and started grinding meat and i ground about fifteen pounds of pheasant and about fifteen pounds of venison twice through the grinder with pork fat and now it's all in a cooler and after this show is over i start piping sausage and it'll hang overnight in my garage and then i'll vac seal it in packages tomorrow and.

[Dan Koch]

Then you'll be putting some in the mail to me doubtful okay i will say the only kind of rise and grind that i sign off on is a literal grind so if you were like i woke up early i began grinding coffee beans i was like that's a good rise and grind grinding meat that's a good rise and grind even better even better it's better i mean it's more specialized i don't accept rise and grind as i wake up and i start working emails on my laptop that rise and grind no don't do that rise and rest before you grind.

[Josh Gilbert]

If grind rise and toke wake and bake right tony no if it's a.

[Tony Jones]

Day where i need to punch through a writing like a big plot point.

[Dan Koch]

That'S quite possible then you're not above the occasional wake and bake okay well speaking of wake and bake i have a new segment today that i'm calling mind of the gap yeah reactions okay good where one of us i'll start this month will ask a pop culture or similar question and see if the other two guys know what we're talking about or if it is specific to our generation so you guys can call a mind the gap meeting anytime on future episodes the other week i was making sloppy joes sometimes you get a craving don't read too much into it and i kept thinking all i could think about was was the line lady you're scaring us do either of you know why i would have thought that while making sloppy joes lady you're scaring.

[Josh Gilbert]

Us no i don't know no okay.

[Dan Koch]

I'M going to share i'm going to i'm going to play a little clip here from the film that i'm thinking of and then if you you might not even recognize the film but let's see if either of you get it once i do that husk of our sloppy joe i made them extra sloppy for you i know how you like them sloppy lady you're scaring us well it showed the title on the clip i couldn't keep it for you did you recognize that that was that was billy madison when you were watching it or no so billy madison i mean i believe this so i'm forty two i would believe that a well placed billy madison quote the adam sandler comedy from the nineties would like only land with like a i would believe it if someone's like you have to be between thirty eight and forty five to get that to get that reference but if you are a male between thirty eight and forty five like you probably mainlined billy madison for many years as i did in junior high and high school i probably know like every single line of that movie and you guys have never even seen it i've never.

[Tony Jones]

Seen billy madison you said adam sandler.

[Josh Gilbert]

Right that's like adam sandler yeah he's a comedian he's a comedian he spans the decades that'd be interesting to know just like him which hims products do we order based on our generation yeah.

[Tony Jones]

Right which i think there are a lot of guys in their fifties who are my contemporaries who are big adam sandler fans because he's probably about my.

[Dan Koch]

Age i suppose yeah he's gen x.

[Tony Jones]

And i'm sure a lot of guys would know billy madison and happy gilmore and stuff like that i just never was that into those slapstick i'm a big will ferrell slapstick movie guy but i don't know those sandler movies never totally did it for me when you.

[Dan Koch]

Think of adam sandler what is the first movie or project or whatever or sketch or album like what's the first thing that comes to mind if i say what do you know adam sandler from comedy special like which which one.

[Josh Gilbert]

I don't know which one the one where he does the hanukkah it's time to celebrate hanukkah so like that was.

[Tony Jones]

A sad that was saturday night live.

[Dan Koch]

Where he both he may have re i think he did oh he did.

[Tony Jones]

It he did it in stand up.

[Dan Koch]

But initially it was an snl sketch a weekend update song right and i.

[Tony Jones]

Would say similar dahanuka song or even more the lunch lady song on snl with chris farley as the lunch lady.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah so good i think i do think of snl but i think it's billy madison and happy gilmore are the things i think of that early era of his huge comedies that i figured i would stop finding funny as i got older and that didn't end up really happening so should we talk about hitler's dna and whether or not he might have had a micropenis oh yeah.

[Josh Gilbert]

Let'S do that why don't you fill.

[Tony Jones]

Us in why don't you fill us.

[Dan Koch]

In on the context okay first of all jaffrey would like specific credit for having brought this story to my attention so she has now received that credit okay here's the background there is a piece of couch upholstery ostensibly from the bunker where hitler and ava shot themselves okay and killed themselves at the end of world war two it was retrieved by an american like special forces or he might have been like a i think an intelligence officer who was embedded with whatever unit you know went and sort of cleared the bunker when they first found hitler's body so that's been you know there's been some questions about chain of custody on that particular piece of cloth and is that really hitler's blood you know could it be someone else's blood but this they've done some dna analysis they have completely sequenced the blood from sample the carpet the whatever the upholstery sample well let's start here so i was first wondering is this definitely his blood like are we sure like let's not shroud of turin this whole thing here right so let's make sure it's his blood and there's a bbc little clip with one of the main genesis involved and he asks her the anchor asks her that question so i figure we could play that because it's better to just hear it from her i'll say this is pretty good pretty good evidence here are you absolutely sure that this swatch this sample you tested is genuine yes so this is.

[Genetic Expert]

Where i'm obviously taking the genetic evidence alongside all the other evidence such as what's the provenance of this swatch we know about how it came to be in the possession of a family it was a public information officer of eisenhower who cut it out of the sofa when he was one of the few men who was allowed into the bunker it stayed in the family for decades then ends up at a museum the fabric looks right then when you do the dna so you've got a genetic match with a distant male line relative which allows us to look at a piece of dna known as the y chromosome and you get a perfect match and it's incredibly rare and then you also have to ask well how likely would it be that another male line relative of hitler would have managed to get himself into the bunker and bleed on the sofa where hitler killed himself and the chances are incredibly remote so yes we can be happy that this.

[Dan Koch]

Is the blood of hippo okay does that satisfy first of all does that satisfy your any initial credulity about it being his blood seems legit i think the perfect match with the distant male relative is like understanding the little that i do about jeans like that is just you just don't get that's either like either it's hitler or somebody's lying there's not like a other option there with that kind of evidence okay so i think now there's some sort of more sensationalist headlines about this that focus on the possibility she said in this interview the five to ten percent chance that hitler had a micropenis now i think hitler having a micropenis is one of those things that's like too good to be true like freud won the world's lottery you know or something like that like if if he had one five to ten percent is not a high enough percentage to like ride that.

[Tony Jones]

Out at all what's the definition of.

[Dan Koch]

A micropenis good question i'm assuming like two inches or less or something let's see like when fully engorged okay oops okay stretch whenever you google something like.

[Tony Jones]

That and then say oops i just want to know what's on your screen.

[Dan Koch]

No no no that's fine okay come on give me a don't give me centimeters a stretched penile length spl for short i love that it gave me that gemini of less than two centimeters at birth or less than four centimeters after age five so that's so it's i don't know it's small under three.

[Josh Gilbert]

Inches is what i'm finding under three.

[Dan Koch]

Inches is what josh is pulling up okay so that's not the part i'm interested in what i am interested in is the fucking genetics of hitler like i was like jeff what is this story like it sounded like she led with the micropenis of course cause that's like the funniest and most whatever detail about it and i was like okay come on but as i started looking into it and reading about it a little bit more and thinking about it i'm like whoa this is pretty cool like this is a genuine source of information like a hard source of information on potentially many very important people people who have had huge effects on the world so i'm curious about that but that's not to say it tells you everything about them of course it doesn't but it's like a novel source of information and i guess i didn't know this but they have already done a genome analysis of a bunch of historical figures so it's not like hitler's not like the first one they're doing this on it's kind of like a newer field as i understand it i think it raises really interesting and important questions about the interaction of genetics and other forces so it sort of like speaks directly into the ongoing never ending nature and nurture conversation there's some complex and interesting ethical questions like how and when to do this why what are we you know like what are we trying to accomplish should we worry or how much should we worry about stigmatizing other people who might have a similar genetic condition that hitler had or fucking genghis khan or jeffrey dahmer or whoever like are we worried about stigmatization i'm just really i'm just interested probably have to give mason a crack at a few hitler micropenis jokes next time he's on but i'm curious what you guys think about this in general we could talk a little bit about what they found about hitler but first what do you think in general about this as like a way of understanding a person yeah.

[Josh Gilbert]

I'M looking at so like you know a micropenis isn't a condition it's a symptom of a hormonal condition right so i'm looking at like what other effects might there be there's the interesting nature side dan like you know the obviously overused jokes of like the size of someone's car in in in inverse proportion to the size of penis they have blah blah blah so it's like we.

[Dan Koch]

Could finally we could finally figure out if that's true or not yeah was.

[Josh Gilbert]

It really that he wanted to commit mass genocide because of the size of his wiener like that's just crazy that that's hilarious and that's a thought but also like what else is affected so what i'm just finding quickly is just like in general less testosterone production but specifically during puberty and like before puberty so nothing else really points to that i mean a really simple version of this is like someone with high testosterone would have the you know malicious behavior that he would have so it's funny that he would have less testosterone but that's what i think about is just like what else can we learn about hitler besides just the micro penis which is the funny yeah tony i don't.

[Tony Jones]

Know it doesn't seem that interesting to.

[Dan Koch]

Me i think okay let me swap it out tony if it were one any roman emperor no i mean what.

[Tony Jones]

What'S what what's interesting about oh i.

[Dan Koch]

Notice a little change in your oh.

[Tony Jones]

No no this has nothing to do with the roman emperor i'm saying what what's interesting i think about genetics and like coding the human genome courtney knows based on twenty three andme that like she has a higher propensity toward dementia and alzheimer's so she's constantly reading books and listening to podcasts about how to keep your mind active and how as you age and like how what kind of foods to eat and stuff like that i don't i can't imagine that there are genetic markers for moral depravity i mean maybe it's possible but so that's what i'm saying like why is it interesting that a super evil guy has genetics if anything it would suck to be somebody who's like hitler's genetic relative somehow that becomes public information and people are like you fucker you're a great great great grandson of hitler and if somebody's like actually i really didn't want anyone to know that you know so i think there's benefit to it but i don't think like looking back i mean maybe you look back and be like why was king tut only five feet tall or whatever that you know sure there's some interesting historical stuff on that but i don't know that hitler's dna helps us with anything other than oh you know when he killed himself he actually had some disease or something like that.

[Microsoft 365 Advertiser]

The world moves fast your workday even faster pitching products drafting reports analyzing data microsoft three hundred sixty five copilot is your ai assistant for work built into word excel powerpoint and other microsoft three hundred sixty five apps you use helping you quickly write analyze create and summarize so you can cut through clutter and clear a path to your best work learn more at microsoft dot com m three hundred sixty five.

[Dan Koch]

Copilot limu emu and doug here we have the limu emu in its natural habitat helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with liberty mutual fascinating it's accompanied by his natural ally doug uh limu is that guy with the.

[Tony Jones]

Binoculars watching us cut the camera they.

[Dan Koch]

See us only pay for what you need at libertymutual dot com liberty liberty liberty liberty savings fairy underwritten by liberty mutual insurance company and affiliates excludes massachusetts.

[Nordstrom Rack Advertiser]

Oh what fun holiday invites are arriving and nordstrom has your party fits covered you'll find head to toe looks for every occasion including styles and under one hundred dresses sets heels and accessories from bardot princess polly dolce vita naked wardrobe coach and more free styling help free shipping and quick order pickup make it easy in stores or online it's time to go shopping at nordstrom this episode.

[Coca Cola Advertiser]

Is brought to you by oops i've got a box of cheez it crackers staring at me and i just wanted that irresistible cheesy crunch sorry that was a total snackcident mmm what was i supposed to be talking about so salty so crunchy so cheesy whoops lost my train of thought i've heard of brain freeze but brain cheese mmm i'll just have one more cheez it cracker and then i'll get back to it.

[Espolon Tequila Advertiser]

Hola sol de janeiro here this holiday season the world is your stage with new limited edition gift sets packed with craveable body care and irresistible perfume mists that bring out the brightest version of you and everyone on your list our award winning visibly firming brazilian boom boom cream and cult favorite fragrances bring a little mist a little mingle and endless delight to the senses holiday's hottest gifts are waiting for you at solde janeiro dot.

[Genetic Expert]

Com.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah so one thing that they they like sort of the most definitive thing that they can say is that they can disprove a long like one zero zero year old rumor that he actually had jewish heritage and that his hatred of jews was like this sublimated self hatred kind of a thing and there's there's no evidence like of that genetically and so they can sort of put that one to bed although as i understand it they also were able to they have relatives of his that they have dna for or whatever so they already could have said in his family there's none but he didn't he.

[Tony Jones]

Didn'T have any kids did he procreate.

[Dan Koch]

I don't think he had any children.

[Tony Jones]

No so it'd all be nieces and nephews or whatever yeah their descendants okay.

[Dan Koch]

Yeah but i mean i mean i do think tony you could like you could have disclosure laws like it doesn't you don't have to just because someone like takes someone's genome and sequences it does not mean that they have to put it on ancestry dot com to be linked with everybody else like you know what i mean you could it could just be only for scholars to.

[Tony Jones]

Look at it no i get that and it could be anonymized or whatever but of course there's always the risk it's why i did this and courtney did this and millions of other people pulled all their info off of twenty three andme when the company went bankrupt and was bought like a buy a venture capital firm for a dollar or whatever i mean i don't want my you know genetic information in the hands of a company that i don't you know that i don't know okay but.

[Dan Koch]

That'S a but that's a different that's a different question so like let's say.

[Tony Jones]

Right but i'm just saying the point the point being it could be like it could any anything could be leaked right okay sure i mean if confidentiality agreements are in place so what i mean there's all sorts of confidentiality agreements in place in like our current white house administration that are completely ignored on.

[Dan Koch]

A daily basis i mean sealed testimony from criminal cases sometimes leaks but we don't think that we should not have court cases because i mean this is.

[Tony Jones]

What congress just did you realize this about epstein is like they're demanding the justice department release grand jury evidence which is by law sealed grand jury evidence is only you know is sealed by law because it is only to determine whether somebody should be put on trial or not it's not the trial but that's what is going to be released.

[Dan Koch]

The grand jury i just think that like are you saying that you were against the epstein files being released are.

[Tony Jones]

You interested no i'm just saying that no i'm not against him whatever pitchforks i frankly cannot be the real enemy of the public here i frankly this is a sideshow and it is meant to distract from much larger evils that are taking place in our country just.

[Dan Koch]

Like somebody who would be named in the filest so we'll just have to check back in on that yeah interesting i don't know i think i'm it's not like been a big topic of fascination or interest for me personally but i do think it's really interesting like you never want to say like the thing if it becomes the thing that brings trump down i don't think there will be anything that brings trump down in his lifetime correct not in the absolute sense because there's a certain number of people who will it doesn't really matter what happens so like he could literally murder someone on fifth avenue as he said then still true but it would be interesting if this ends up being like the largest stain on his you know one of the largest stains no bill clinton pun intended on his sort of legacy for having been this thing that like he whipped up in and like encouraged in his supporters and that when he told them to shut up and not and stop asking for it they're like no dude this is the one thing we're gonna demand you you know we don't need to see your taxes we don't need to see literally anything else you told us you would show us ever ufo stuff nothing you know whatever the the jfk stuff which apparently didn't have very much in it like nothing you fine you can never keep a single one of your promises but we demand it's like give us barabbas but for the epstein files it's kind of funny but isn't it.

[Tony Jones]

Isn'T it because of the qanon idea that there's like a pedophilia ring that are all elite democrats in the country are part of a big pedophile ring that goes back to like the pizzagate thing with hillary and i mean that's why right and that's why when we go to airports right now there are human trafficking posters all over because there is a republican obsession with that there is children are being slave traded around the globe for you know elite pedophilia rings is it right yes isn't that isn't that what's behind the republican push.

[Dan Koch]

For this it's part it's in part what's behind go ahead josh well yeah.

[Josh Gilbert]

I think that's a portion of it i think whatever the on ramp is onto into the most extreme qanon version of that i think like i have some friends who specifically voted for trump they like i think how they say it is they reluctantly voted for trump because of something like the epstein files they just care about that issue and it just is a huge it's like an unsolved mystery in the public discourse that they just they would love to know what is actually at the bottom of that i don't know how like conspiracy it is though i mean look.

[Tony Jones]

Let me just say also for the sake of your listeners or whatever like for instance nancy mace nancy mace was sexually assaulted like she has a history of sexual assault when she was young and she's been one of the republicans pushing most hard for this so i don't think like nancy mace is qanon or whatever i'm saying kind of like the rank and file the people who would vote you know who would vote for this i i it's it's interesting to me like i talk to people josh maybe these you're talking about these people too like i talk to people and they say you don't understand the massive amount of underage boys and girls who are sex trafficked all around the globe on a daily basis and i'm like is that actually a thing am i so far am i so far inoculated from that that it's like this is actually one of the biggest problems in the world right now and i'm just in the dark about it no.

[Dan Koch]

So here's my understanding here's my understanding of a sort of synthesis of all this there is a conspiracy theory version of sort of global and us child sex trafficking there's like and you know i'm sure there's many versions of this but just put them in one pile that would like you know take the official statistics and say it's a hundred times more than that okay so there's like that that's the qanon version but that also includes babies it includes like the full qanon pizzagate thing includes draining babies of adrenochrome in their blood to keep these vampiric democrats living longer okay so that's there's that version you've got to assume that no more than five percent of america buys any version of that sort of extreme version okay that's still millions of people maybe it's fewer than five maybe it's one percent but then there are but i think that the epstein files sort of have more traction psychologically because they don't require you to buy all that stuff okay we already know for sure that jeffrey epstein has been convicted for running an underage or right around legal age you know sort of it certainly seems like he was not too scrupulous about keeping everybody over eighteen so maybe call it fourteen to twenty five year old women young women that he had a sort of system for providing companionship to powerful people that we know for sure so you don't have to be qanon to go oh and maybe there are a hundred to four hundred more currently active public figures who are legitimately associated with that known crime so you don't have to be conspiratorial to go i'd like those people to be charged you know what i'm saying like it it can yes it can be a stand in for qanon and pizzagate it also is a stand in for the richest people in this world do whatever the fuck they want and they never pay for it which is like basically true oh yeah here is an example where it's like we're so close yeah with maybe you know you could think like charitably in one fell swoop hundreds of these very powerful people's lives could functionally end like that would be a major blow for like you know injustice around the world even if you reject the adrenochrome and the hundred times the official statistics type stuff of course sex trafficking and human trafficking is a is is a very significant problem worldwide the the thing i'm mentioning is just like we we know that there are official statistics that can be fairly trustworthy places like un human rights watch stuff like you know we have numbers the fbi keeps numbers like there are numbers so the conspiracy is that those numbers are way under yeah and so you know that's one of those things though where it's like so let's say you're a republican politician and you think okay of the fifty five percent of my state or my district that is my political affiliation these are my supporters maybe ten or five of those fifty five are like all the way down the rabbit hole in this stuff but the other ten is it really costing me anything to highlight human trafficking no right no one it's not going to cost you anything so put the posters up you know what i.

[Josh Gilbert]

Mean something i don't understand maybe you two can answer this like whoever has the epstein files now and this whole like release them i don't understand how that will change meaningfully change who's charged or whatnot like let's say there is indisputable evidence that bill clinton you know assaulted a minor like and that's in the files if that's in the files whoever has them now or maybe i misunderstand what that even means but like if that's known information wouldn't he be charged already like what does releasing them.

[Tony Jones]

To the public okay first of all yeah that no unless there's like actual video of it happening which i don't think there's any video it would all be hearsay cause it would be an email from epstein to somebody else being like clinton was with a twelve year old last night or whatever and that's hearsay and no nobody can be charged with that also probably the statute of limitations is already passed on almost all this stuff so no it's not about more criminal indictments this is all about trying to take down powerful people and both sides are basically gambling that there are more people on the other side named in the documents than there are on their side so democrats are kind of like yeah we'll we'll sacrifice larry summers and bill clinton if we can take down you know i don't know rand paul and donald trump or something but it's going to be fricking al capone's vault you know like it's teflon don nothing sticks to donald trump dan you already said it this is not going to take him down and it that's why i think it's another distraction and i'm sure that some of your buddies in the deconstruction podcast world have spent entire episodes on this and i've been critical of them in the past and it is such a waste of time and it's going to do nothing and now people are just fighting for clicks and downloads on their podcasts okay.

[Dan Koch]

So let me retry again here's one point one welcome back to religion on the mind a conversation show about the epstein files other shows talk about it way too much but we only talk about it the right amount is that better i like that that's good okay let's go over to the patron only segment where i would like to very briefly talk about the reemergence of the term pedophile in the national discourse related to the epstein files this is an explicit episode it is going to on the other side of the paywall for for probably obvious reasons there but i do think it's worth talking about so if you would like to hear the rest of this conversation we are also going to be talking about i think we're going to get into some chatgpt ai stuff as well as i sent you guys some kalistos where the metropolitan like the i think the uk metropolitan which is like the archbishop of the orthodox church and a couple other things that we will try and get to tony's got an atlantic article about nudity so pretty excited to get those thoughts patreon dot com dankoke that link is always in the show notes it's a bit over five bucks a month if you do the yearly thing so thank you guys for your support sam.