Religion on the Mind with Dan Koch

Episode #372: Hopelessly Religious & Moving to the Country
Release Date: January 8, 2026
Guest: Brian Hall

Episode Overview

This episode features Dan Koch in conversation with his longtime friend, musician Brian Hall. Picking up 18 months after Brian's previous appearance, they dive into the multifaceted reasoning and ramifications behind Brian’s recent move from urban Portland to rural Oregon. The discussion explores the intersections of parenting special-needs children, faith deconstruction and reconstruction, exhaustion with political polarization, and finding new community rhythms outside a big city. The episode also touches on masculinity, grief, and what it means to remain “hopelessly religious” even after intense questioning and change.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Why Move to the Country? (01:52—08:32)

• Songful Start: Brian playfully opens with lyrics from “Peaches” by the Presidents of the United States of America, segueing into the theme of literally moving to the country, though “not in any way related to...eating peaches or...the sexual innuendo” (02:07, Dan).
• Motivations: The family’s move was driven by several factors:
  • Exhaustion with culture wars and polarization.
  • Seeking an environment better suited to their children's special needs.
  • Faith and a sense of spiritual reconstruction.
  • Economic and social practicality—rural living is cheaper and allows for more stay-at-home parenting and informal supports.
• Roots and Relationships: The move is also a return to areas from Brian’s formative years (05:55), tapping into a small “remnant crew” of previous friends and family.

Notable Quote:
“It was just really hard. You know, everyone’s busy. The big thing, I think, is just practical...there’s more stay at home moms in the country, so it’s more practical as well. But...for the kids...both of them, we pulled them out [of public school] and they immediately started blossoming.” — Brian (07:06)

2. Parenting Special-Needs Kids & Schooling Choices (08:32—13:01)

• Individualized Decisions: Dan observes that for liberals, school choice can feel politically fraught, but sometimes individual situations require tailored solutions.
• On-the-Ground Experience: Brian explains the resources and supports that made their rural move feasible—including a direct support worker who, along with her husband, moved with them and now helps both with support and farming.
• Community Support: While cities offer professional services, Brian shares that rural social systems—volunteers, churches, neighbors—provide meaningful, if different, support structures.

Notable Moment:
“She is kind of like a mix between a daughter and a cousin or something…I don’t know. Or an aunt. She’s family.” — Brian (11:34)

3. Faith Reconstruction and Conservative Spaces (13:01—23:17)

• Reconstruction Process: Brian describes moving from a place of “hopelessly, irrevocably religious” (21:58) despite years of wrestling with Christian faith.
• Exposure Therapy: Brian chooses to deliberately expose himself to conservative and religious contexts he previously avoided in order to metabolize old pain and trauma and discover if a different relationship is possible now that he’s older.
• Directness and Community: Participation in men’s groups, including racially diverse Pentecostal circles, emphasized the value of direct (even abrasive) honesty and brotherhood.

Notable Quote:
“I have gone through a type of reconstruction...that’s made me not only willing to be around conservatives, but determined to be like completely open hearted around them, to withhold judgment toward them...to be really present.” — Brian (12:56)

Memorable Exchange:
Brian: “I joined a men’s morning workout thing. I wouldn’t have done that before because it was too exclusive. It’s really had an incredibly positive impact on me...it was so freeing.” (23:27)

Dan: “If you can handle the heat, on the other side is something of great value. And you sort of prove your willingness.” (29:48)

4. Masculinity, Grief, Healing, and Intergenerational Bonds (17:55—27:46)

• Personal Grief as a Catalyst: Brian shares his experience of deep grief after his son’s biological father died by suicide, which pushed him into his own healing work and eventually toward reconciliation with his own father.
• On Trauma: Brian analogizes trauma and avoidance to “a bad pimple,” shaping how you approach parts of life (21:31).
• Initiation and Brotherhood: Echoing Joseph Campbell and Richard Rohr, Dan and Brian discuss the lost rituals of masculine initiation, and what modern men's groups sometimes reclaim.

Notable Quote:
“...There’s this opportunity to become to each other...like if you’re willing to suffer the violence of me being very direct with you, you can have something much more, something really profound...” — Brian (27:23)

5. Political Polarization & Seeking Connection Beyond “Tribes” (15:51—17:32; 30:26—31:05)

• Media Diets and Understanding the “Other”: Dan now finds listening to moderate conservatives more stimulating than hearing viewpoints he already shares (16:33-17:32).
• Comfort Zones: Both acknowledge that, for various reasons (including family dynamics or deeply held values), being in certain conservative spaces may not always be tenable—but for now, both are seeking less polarized relationships.

Cautionary Note:
Dan: “If any of your kids are gay, you’re gonna be snapped right back out of this shit, Brian...there are certain things that might shift this.” (30:42)

6. Diversity, Exhaustion, and Complexity of Urban Life (32:40—34:39)

• Reflections on Portland: Brian mourns the loss of diversity—especially racial—but candidly admits exhaustion with the complex, constantly shifting social/political landscape of the city.
• Parental Vulnerability: He expresses that as a father, he needs to be present and wholehearted, not bogged down by abstract worries about ideology or accidental harm.

Notable Quote:
“The version of me that comes out when I’m really vulnerable and really open hearted is patient and determined and believes in my kids deeply. And that version of me isn’t sitting there wondering about all the shit that I’m going to do or say or think and what it means to the whole rest of the world...” — Brian (33:27)

Notable Quotes (with timestamps)

• “We have all the neighbors in our new spot...You kind of are betrothed to one another.” (11:34, Brian)
• “I'm hopelessly, irrevocably religious, in spite of my better attempts to shake some of that stuff.” (21:58, Brian)
• “I’m going to try to metabolize as much of my pain as I can through exposure share therapy, basically.” (23:12, Brian)
• “If you can handle the heat, on the other side is something of great value.” (29:48, Dan)
• “The saddest part about leaving Portland is the diversity...For me, if I’m honest, it’s not really, like, diversity of thought that exists among white people. Like, I’m not that sad about [losing] that.” (34:36, Brian)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:52] — Opening theme & Peaches song
• [05:55] — Returning to childhood roots; family demographics
• [07:06] — Blossoming after leaving city schools
• [11:00] — Support network and direct support worker
• [12:56] — Open-heartedness toward conservatives
• [17:55] — Grief, trauma, and father-son relationships
• [21:58] — “Hopelessly, irrevocably religious”
• [23:27] — Voluntary ‘exposure therapy’ in male/fatherhood groups
• [27:23] — Value of frankness and initiation in relationships
• [29:48] — Masculine rites of passage parallels
• [30:42] — Limits of open-mindedness in the face of anti-LGBTQ bias
• [33:27] — Parental vulnerability over ideological concerns
• [34:36] — Mourning loss of diversity after rural move

Summary Conclusion

In this nuanced, vulnerable conversation, Dan and Brian explore what can pull a person from city to country—not just practicalities or politics, but the deeper undercurrents of raising unique children, coping with generational pain, and the unshakable shape of spiritual need. Their friendship, professional histories, and willingness to wrestle honestly with their own hang-ups and hopes provide an authentic entry point for listeners navigating similar religious, psychological, and cultural issues.

For more conversations at the intersection of psychology, religion, and spirituality, check out previous episodes or join the Religion on the Mind Patreon.